Good Life Project - Gretchen Rubin: How To Build Habits That Change Lives

Episode Date: March 16, 2015

Everything you've been told about building and breaking habits may well be wrong. Or, at the very least, missing a critical middle step.In this week's episode, we bust myths and share how to do it right (hint, there are 4 different approaches and if you choose wrong, you will fail).Creating good habits is one of the master keys for living a good life. But, it's hard. Really hard. And, it turns out, the reason it's so hard may not be your fault. It may, in fact, be that you've been given misinformation.According to mega NYT bestselling author of The Happiness Project, Gretchen Rubin, in her new book, Better Than Before, there's been a missing piece in the habit puzzle, and she's got the answer.In this fast-paced, incredibly-revealing conversation, Rubin lays bare they myth of the one-method-for-all-people approach to habits. To create or change a habit, she offers, you first need to understand which of four key personality types you are. Then, tailor your approach to your specific personality needs.We dive into each type, how to figure which you are and how that changes the way you'll need to build or change your habits. By the end of this episode, you will definitely be interested in knowing which you are, so I've linked the online personality typing tool she's created below to figure out yours.Some questions I ask:What are your thoughts on how The Happiness Project has evolved into a brand?Is the audience that loves The Happiness Project who you thought it would be?What's the difference between a behavior and a habit and why does it matter to turn one into the other?What is the role of forming habits in living a good life?Links we mention:Better Than BeforeThe Happiness ProjectTake the Habits QuizFollow Gretchen:Website | Twitter | FacebookCheck out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

One of the things people often say is like, make healthy choices. And I'm like, don't make healthy choices. Make one healthy choice and then stop choosing. Because every time you choose, you run the risk that you're going to choose wrong. One of maybe the most challenging things to do is to take a behavior that you really want to do. Maybe it's exercise. Maybe it's working out. Maybe it's waking up early and turn it into something that becomes a habit that where it's automatic. You

don't think about it. You just do it. When you can do that, it actually changes the way that we function in our world. It changes the way that our brain operates. And a lot of research shows that being able to create really positive, constructive habits can lead to a happier, more fulfilled, better life. That, in fact, is what triggered the exploration of habit for this week's guest, Gretchen Rubin, who you guys very likely know as the founder of the Happiness Project blog and the author of the mega best-selling book, The Happiness Project and its follow-up, Happier at Home. Today, we're going to dive into how she became interested in habit and explore some pretty fascinating new archetypes that she developed for her new book, Better Than Before. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project.

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The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need them. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. Actually, you know what would be kind of fun to start um how we met because i was trying to remember

how did we meet didn't we i think we were like subbed into a book group that that um marcy well marcy and michael and i and somebody else maybe karen samuelson? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right? Yeah, there was some connection. And then, yes, we met. But were we both invited by someone else? I think so. I think, yeah, I think so. Who connected us? Oh, no, Marcy knew you because she had written that piece about you in your yoga studio.

Yoga studio. Right, right. It was like on the bus, the New York Times bus. Yes, Marcy knew you you and she knew me and that so marcy is how we know each other marcy albert all right yeah and it's funny because you think back then um how when was that you were working on the first happiness project book okay you were like in the middle so that came out in 2009 right right so that had been like 2008 ish or something like that. Wow, that's crazy. Because I remember we were talking, we were like strategizing, is it going to work?

Is anyone going to buy it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. And then flash forward not too long after that. And you still had your yoga studio. You were just getting out of your yoga studio. I think I did, yeah.

You were just getting out of your yoga studio. Because I sold that business at the end of 2008, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because I was- You were just transitioning out of it. Yeah, because- Somebody bought it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I sold that business at the end of 2008. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was. You were just transitioning out of it. Yeah. Because. You bought.

Somebody bought it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I sold the company. Right. Because I was working on my first book, which came out in January 2009. Wait. Happiest project come 2009 or 2010?

I don't know. It was 2009, I think, right? No. I think it was 2010, actually. I don't know. I should look it up. I can't remember. I think it was 2010.

Because 2009 was an evil, evil year. Like 2008 kicked off this crazy, awful time in the economy. 2009, it was just horrendous all year. And then your book came out like the beginning of 2010 where everyone was like, can we just turn the page? Maybe it was like December 30th, 2009

or something like that. I should look it up. I should know the copyright date of my own book. It's all a blur. It's kind of funny looking back at that, though, right? It's nice. We were so excited, and it's been fun. So we were right to be excited. I know.

It feels like it's a remarkably short period of time, but it also feels like it was a world ago. No, because so much has happened. Yeah. You've moved, moved back. Right. We've both got like books in the middle too. Yeah.

Looking back at Happiness Project now, did you have like major expectations? And I'm just curious, actually, if you kind of look back at what's grown into, because it's kind of like, you know, like a, it's like a brand. It's like a, you know, it's got legs in so many different ways. Just what are your thoughts on how it's evolved? Well, when I started, I guess I was like, cautiously optimistic, you know, like I wanted to do everything that I could, because I had written several books before, right, of various success, but not of any great success. And so And they were like, really-depth, like historical research.

Yeah, they were two biographies and this book, Power, Money, Fame, Sex, which is sort of like a satirical self-help guide. And so, which I think was good because it taught me that I wanted to do everything that I could. I wasn't going to rely on my publisher. I wasn't going to rely on anybody else. I was really going to do everything within my power to make the book a success. And fortunately, it was a time when technology had become accessible enough that even someone

really low tech like me could avail herself of it. And so I started a blog. And so I was trying to do everything that I could. So in that way, I was really trying to set myself up for success. But a lot of times, things just don't work out. My mother, when I was in a previous life, I was a lawyer, as were you. Yeah, both former lawyers. What does that tell you? And I became editor-in-chief of the Law Journal, which is like the Law Review, which is a super big deal if you're in law school. And I called my parents to tell them. And my mother said, well, you should be very happy because you worked hard and you deserved it. But others also worked hard and people don't always get what they deserve. And somebody said to me like, wow, that sounds pretty undermining. And I was like, no, it's incredibly encouraging because she's just reminding me that like you work hard, but that doesn't necessarily guarantee you.

And sometimes things don't work out. And so you should rejoice when it does. And when it doesn't, just don't take it too personally, you know. And so I often thought about that and thought it was actually a really encouraging thing. So with this, I wanted to do everything I could, work as hard as I could. And I was hoping that I was not going to have to be philosophical about it. And so I was very pleased when it turned out that it struck, you know, that it struck a chord with a lot of people. I just didn't know if it would. Yeah. Do you have a now that you've sort of like you got

a couple years and you've, we've talked about this, you know, like a bunch of times over the years, you have a pretty good sense for, for who it struck a chord with? Is it who you thought it would be? You know, I don't think I ever really specifically thought about who it would be, like in terms of a demographic or, you know, I don't really visualize the reader. I mean, I know some people do, and I can see how that would be really helpful. What surprised me is that it's so much broader than I expected. Like, I often get emails from people who are in their 70s and 80s. I have a ton of readers who are teenagers which surprised me but then actually when you think about it

it's not so surprising because being a teenager is very self-reflective they are very focused on who are they what do they want I have a lot of college readers and then a lot of people who are sort of like me and then I have a ton of people from other countries where sometimes you think

is the stuff that I'm talking about, does it even make sense to them? Right. Does it, like, culturally translate? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny whenever, like, there's a translation. Sometimes I'll get a question from a translator. Like, one was, what are wilted greens? And I was like, it's a vegetable side dish.

Or one, what was a sippy cup? Oh, no kidding. It's hard to describe a sippy cup. And I said, oh, a cup of OJ. And they asked me if that was a reference to OJ Simpson. I was like, no, it's a reference to orange juice. Anyway, so you wonder if things are going to translate to people in Slovenia or wherever. And so it's been really interesting that it has, that there's been a pretty wide range of people.

Yeah, and it's such an interesting time to be a writer, also to be an author. Oh, yeah. Interesting. Yes, thank you. That very diplomatic word. I'm trying to tap in some of people. Yeah. And it's such an interesting time to be a writer also to be an author. Interesting. Yes. Thank you. That very diplomatic word. I'm trying to tap in a little bit here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. It is. But it's an exciting time. You do feel like there's so much you can do. Yeah. I mean, it's like you said, you know, like you sort of like took the mindset and we've talked about this and I have the same mindset. You do much more than I do. You're constantly pushing the edge in terms of what are the new tools that people can learn, like that a regular person can learn and do and carry through with. Yeah, because I think you have to. It's like you have to take ownership of your

future. If you want to be a writer, I mean, it's interesting because I've had, and I'm sure you have also a conversation with a whole bunch of people I know who are sort of like, you know, they're like mid list writers, they've been doing it for a long time. And probably a relatively small percentage are saying, okay, these are the tools. For me to sustain myself, I'm going to have to like really start to actually step into this stuff. And then a whole bunch of others are sort of saying, I'm in so much pain.

And you kind of want to say it. Yeah. You know. No, there's really, I see that so much among my writer friends that some, like slowly, they're coming around to embracing the new way and seeing the advantages of it and the power of it and how exciting it can be to connect with your audience directly. And some really just they're like, I just want to write my books and have somebody else deal with everything else. And it's just increasingly feels like that doesn't, isn't going to be enough.

Yeah. I don't know if it's, I mean, I think if you do that, you're betting on the fact that you're one of those rare people that writes like the absolute most gorgeous book at the right time that taps into the zeitgeist at the right moment and just explodes, you know,

on its own momentum. And that can happen. Yeah. But how many times does that happen? Are you going to bank your career and like your family and your momentum. And that can happen. Yeah. But how many times does that happen? Are you going to bank your career and like your family and your rent on that happening? Yeah, yeah. But I think also that sometimes readers, writers don't, don't understand, because they until they've experienced, like the advantages of it, like they think of themselves as like, okay, well, I'm losing all this valuable writing time to write on Twitter or something.

And they don't realize like, well, I'm going to get all these great ideas. And I'm going to, it's going to be easier for me to connect with people that I want to talk to. And I'm going to hear from readers and have a better sense of my subject. And I'm going to be excited by what other people have to say. And one thing I always say writers, you know, a lot of times people will talk about the brand. And that makes people just like break out in hives. Think about your voice. Like I always think about, well, what is my voice? And what is it that I'm trying to communicate? And if you think about what you're trying to communicate in your voice, that just feels much more natural to a writer than I think some of the language is unnecessarily off-putting. Whereas if you just put it in your own writerly language, you understand.

But I mean, I have a friend who was so opposed to it. I mean, just so opposed to all this technology. And she's come 100% around and is so glad. And she just sees that it's, it's just a way to connect with readers at a much, much more deep level. It's a mechanism to, in my mind, at least to actually claim more control over your writing future than you ever had when you're actually when somebody else was just sort of like writing the advance. And yes, when you're just very much right you know it's like even if you still choose to go through those production and distribution channels like if

you know and you have a direct relationship with your eventual readers yes you're in a profoundly different place to either negotiate a better advance or just go direct to them if at some point you make that decision well and also this isn't true for all writers but for you and me it's true that, and I'm sure you would say the same thing, that you just get so much better understanding of your subject. Oh, my God, so much. Because you put something out there and you hear back from people and you say, oh, wow,

wow, I hit a nerve here. I had no idea. Or, wow, I thought this was an interesting idea, but everybody's kind of pushing back. Maybe I don't quite understand it as well as I thought. Or here's this amazing example that I could never have invented. I mean, people's, it's like Henry James, the examples that I get of people's habits. I'm like, I couldn't make it up. It's so brilliant. Like the detail, it's so, it's just so delicious. And I just think there's no way that I could interview enough people or talk to enough people in my own life. But this stuff is just pouring into me. And I just feel like you get so much further,

so much faster when you're able to put your ideas in play earlier. Yeah. And for me, I so agree with that. And it's like it operates on two levels. You use so many examples of stories. So how would you find them? Right. Exactly. So it's like I'm crowdsourcing like i have this giant story search and then i'm like hey guys what do you got yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you know i'll give you credit i'll tell you as long as it fits yes bring it on yes um but but the other thing i do is like i'm constantly and tell me if you do this i'm curious actually i don't know if we ever talked about this i'm constantly testing nuggets of ideas to see 100 like what the social response is going to be to them?

Yes. No, I had this happen, and I've never really followed up on it. I wrote something about teasing. I had read this one sentence in a book that was really about something else, and it was like, well, an interesting thing about teasing is that the people doing the teasing perceive it to be in a much more warm and lighthearted way, but if you talk to the people who are being teased, they perceive it as much more negative. That was just sort of an aside.

And I thought, well, that's kind of interesting. And I posted it. I mean, people went crazy. And I had all these stories of people like, oh, I'm completely estranged from my family because they're so relentlessly teasing. Or, you know, my husband keeps saying, oh, you've got to lighten up. And I keep thinking, I've got to go back to that whole teasing thing because clearly it's something that we don't talk about that much, but people had really powerful reaction to it. And I just did it as kind of an aside. And even what I was talking about was kind of an aside in someone else's book. Yeah, so sometimes, but then, and that's something I haven't written about. But like when I write about abstaining and moderating, that when people are facing

a strong temptation, some people do better when they give things up altogether, and some people do better when they do moderate. Well, I thought maybe i was like the only abstainer in the world because people don't really talk about it that much but when i posted about it i heard from tons of people saying either they were abstainers or like i never thought i could be an abstainer but now i'm trying i lost 30 pounds you know so or yeah yeah oh so i'm i'm an absolute abstainer yeah i'm not a moderator yeah it's like i'm in or i'm out. That's it. I mean, that's it. It's like clear the cover. The thing is, we abstainers, we know it.

Right, yeah. It's not a secret from us. Once we have the label, we're like, oh, yeah, team abstainer. No, totally. So for those who actually don't know, can you just go a little bit more in-depth? Okay, go set. So with this habits book, one of the things is like, how do you resist a strong temptation? And a very common advice, what I think is the most common advice,

is sort of like, well, be sensible, be moderate. And like, you know, try to eat healthfully most of the time, but maybe have a cheat day or let yourself go on the weekends or, you know, have one cookie. And, you know, so 80-20, eat healthfully 80% of the time, like be more indulgent 20% of the time. And I'm using food as the example, just because that's a strong temptation that many people face, but it's actually the same thing for technology or TV or whatever. But what I found, and I tried that for

many years, but finally, I read this line from Samuel Johnson, where he said, somebody offered him wine, and he said, he said no. And he said, abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult. And when I read that, I thought, that's true for me. I can give things up all together very easily, but I can't have one cookie. I can't have a little bit. I can't have like a tiny bowl of ice cream. Once you say I'm in, if I'm in, I'm in. I've never left a bowl of ice cream empty in my life, you know, half finished. It was amazing. And I realized that there's a lot of people who are like that. They find it easier to give something up altogether than to be moderate. But then some people are moderators. And if they try to give something up altogether,

they kind of get panicky and rebellious, and they actually become overly focused on the temptation. They really do better when they indulge in moderation. But as you can imagine, it's very important to know which way works for you. But what happens a lot of times is that abstainers try to be moderators and they just keep failing because they have the one cookie and then they can't stop. But if they give it up, and people make a mistake by thinking that abstainers like us are like super high discipline, like it's because we have so much willpower. And I keep saying, this is the easy way for us. This is what works for us easily. This is the lazy way to resist temptation is to give something up altogether.

And you know, in a lot of it's just, maybe it's just one thing, like my sister, her kryptonite is French fries. So she doesn't eat French fries. But with basically everything else, she's a moderator. And that's fine. Like, and then I like don't eat sugar. So I'm a pretty big, I basically don't eat carbs. So I abstain from from a lot most people would not abstain from as much as i do but it's all you know you can just do it to suit yourself but once you know that if one thing doesn't work you can try the other way i think for a lot of people that's really helpful yeah and what's so interesting also is that that last thing you just brought up which is it can it's like domain specific it is a hundred percent maybe you love potato chips or maybe or you know or like one a

friend of mine said i can have no wine or i can have four glasses of wine i can't have one glass of wine well i can take one or i could have a half a glass of wine she's like i could never have half a glass of wine so it is it's very much like what is your thing yeah um and it might be that just giving up that thing then just just, or like Halloween candy, for example. So many people are like, oh my gosh, Halloween's coming up. I know I'm going to eat way too much Halloween candy. Maybe you just say like, okay, it's not that I'm giving up candy altogether, but I'm not going to eat any Halloween candy. A friend of mine ate 40 pieces of bite size candy bars. And he's like, you think I'm exaggerating? Because like 40 is a big number.

He's like, literally, I mean, 39, 40, 41. It was in that range. And the guy's a trainer too, so it's hilarious. But so maybe you're just like, okay, I'm not going to eat Halloween candy or I'm not going to eat dessert on Christmas just because I don't want to get into how many cookies can one person eat in one day. It's just something to try. And for a lot of people, it's easier. That is the easier. For me, it's so much easier.

I mean, if I know that somewhere in this house, there's chocolate. Yeah. It just haunts you. Oh, yeah. But if I know that it just doesn't exist in the house, I'm completely fine. I don't crave it. I'm good. You just go out for it.

Yeah. And if it is here and I have just the tiniest piece, I'm done. Yeah. But I think the bigger message with that is that there is no one rule. No, 100%. That like, okay, everybody, this is the way you have to do it. But we're, I think we're so conditioned to think, well, oh my God, this works so well for me.

This must be the thing that's going to work for everybody. Yes. No. And that is, if I had to say, is there one thing that I would like the secret to have information or like the one principle for my book for somebody who wants the one sentence executive summary, it is that there's, we so badly want there to be a magic one size fits all solution. And there just isn't. Because what works for one person doesn't work for another person.

And the fact that Albert Einstein did such and such or that your brother did such and such doesn't tell you. I mean, it might be interesting for you to try. It could give you some ideas. But you really have to figure it out for yourself. And there are a lot of people who say like, oh, here's the answer. Be moderate. Here's the answer. Start small. Here's the answer. Do it first thing in the morning. And for some people, those will be successful strategies. But for many people, just the opposite would work. Some people do better when they have staying. Some people do better when they sleep late and do things, you know, because they're night

people. Some people do better when they start big. That's more exciting and interesting to them. And so you really just have to think about, you know, what's true for me? What do I like? When have I succeeded in the past? If you did something in college, well, why were you able to do it in college but not now?

Or why when you lived in that apartment but not this apartment? Or, you know, why when you were married to your ex-husband, it was like this, but now that you're with this new boyfriend, it's like that. You know, I mean, there's sometimes we can find patterns. And in my book, I try to lay out all the factors that you could be evaluating and applying because there are, there's a lot of different things to think about. It's not, it's not simple. Right. It's not like here's a system everybody go use. Like, it's, it's not just simple right it's not like here's the system everybody go use like yes it's it's here's a framework to experiment yes figure out what the what the appropriate rules are for you yes mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i

knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I want to go into that in more detail, but I want to take a step back also. Because for you, what makes Gretchen Rubin say, this is a cool freaking topic.

Like, I need to go deeper into this. Well, with the happiness, it was really like I was on the Crosstown bus. And I had this, and I thought, well, what do I want from life anyway? I want to be happy. And I realized I didn't spend any time thinking about happiness, what it was or if I could be happier. And so I became instantly obsessed with happiness and like ran to the library and started researching it just for myself. And I thought I should have a happiness project. And it hit me and it was only later I was like, this is such an amazing subject. I should write a whole book about it. And then with habits, it's sort of happiness led to habits because when I was talking to people about habits and researching it and thinking about it, I was noticing more and more that when people had an issue, a happiness issue, it was often related to a habit that they couldn't form. It was they thought that they knew they would be happier, healthier, more productive if they got more sleep

or exercise more regularly or took their blood pressure medication or worked on their PhD thesis. So they'd identified it, but they couldn't stick to it somehow. So it's like cognitively

they get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Why weren't they able to, but they weren't able to change. Like somebody said to me, like in this like soulful way, like if only we could have Shabbat dinner said to me, like, like within this like soulful way, like, if only we could have Shabbat dinner. And I was like, well, why don't you? I mean,

why don't you? But it was like, and I realized that a lot of times it had to do with challenges around habit formation. So I started getting more and more interested in habits and going further and further and further into habits. And then I started like, like being puzzled, because like all these questions that seemed really important and pressing and obvious to me, it was like no one was talking about them. Like, there was this assumption in most of the things that I read that everybody had the same aptitude for forming habits. Like one person forms habits as easily or with the same difficulty as another person, which seemed obviously not true to me. Or that people have the same attitude towards habit.

Like, I love habits. I embrace them. I feel, I would say things like habits bring freedom. But then other people despise habits and fear them and resist them. Well, that's going to affect things. Or, you know, and then there were these weird questions like, well, why is it that I knew several people, bizarrely, who had all wanted to get into the habit of exercising.

And so to do that, they'd run the marathon. They'd run the marathon, loved it, and never run again. Like, what do you explain that? People who lose weight gain all the weight back. You know, why is it? Like, so there were just all these questions that were swirling around in my head. And, um, but then somebody, a friend of mine made a remark who I just saw for lunch today, weirdly, um, that got me really locked in and total full obsession. She said to me, when I was in high school, I was on the track team

and I never missed track practice, but I can't go running now. Why? And I thought, well, why? Because it's the same person. It's the same habit. At one time, she did it effortlessly. And now she can't make herself do it. How do you explain that? Like, what's going on there? There has to be an explanation.

And yet I didn't see an explanation in anything that I've been researching. So I'm like, OK, this is it. I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to break the code. I'm going to break the code. I'm going to just immerse myself in habits. And that's when I was like, okay, this is my next subject. It's big enough. It's exciting enough. And I'm just,

it's driving me crazy. But what's interesting is not like there wasn't anything written on it or no research done either. So it's not like you were looking at it. I mean, there was a huge book out on the power of having a couple of years ago by Will Power. Yeah. And then, you know, like BJ Fogg is doing all this research on how to do that. So what, what, and I know that you were familiar with a lot of stuff. What was it about? Like, so there's a lot of stuff

that's out there talking about it. Yeah. But like, what's the thing where you're looking at? There's like, these people aren't talking about this. Right. Well, one of the things I love as an author is always to take a giant subject and try to distill it down into its most essential elements. And I love huge subjects like happiness, or like I wrote a biography, a very short biography of Winston Churchill. And it was like, how can I say everything important and interesting about Winston Churchill, and like, leave out everything else? You know, it's like that intellectual distillation is what I really love. So I love the fact that there was all this stuff about habits and addiction and, you know, all this stuff that was sort of related to it, but not quite on topic. But I think the thing that really made me want to write my own book

is I truly felt like there were things that I, there were questions that I had, or like my mother, I was trying to get my mother to exercise more regularly. And so, and I thought, well, there, surely there's some kind of book that tells you like, well, try this, try this, try this, try this, try this, try this. Because like, you know, off the top of my head, I could think of a few strategies, but surely there was a more kind of systematic way. And I kept looking and looking and looking for the book that would sort of help me basically nag my mother mother or you know gently make suggestions to my mother suggest yeah yeah no because it was things i because i was trying everything like well maybe you should uh go at a different time of the day or maybe you should i got her an ipod

and loaded up a bunch of audiobooks so she could listen to audiobooks and that seemed to help but yeah i mean there were there were i just and then I was like, this book doesn't exist. I can't find this book. And I feel like I want to read this book. So I have to write it. That's the, I think for me, that's the big one. It's like, I want to read this book. I want to read this book. Well, they say research is me-search.

And it's like, you're looking, you're trying to teach yourself. Yeah, always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, and it's so thrilling because you're like, I'm going to answer all the stuff I find interesting and I'll just leave out the boring parts. Right. And then other people, maybe it helps them to pull on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Side benefit. Yeah, yeah. No. And then you're so engaged because you're so honestly curious yourself about what you're going to find. So one thing that jumps out at me right away is, you know, once you start to get into this, and is why, what's the difference between behavior and habit? And why does it matter so much to turn a behavior into a habit?

Well, the purpose of the reason the brain, the brain wants to make habits is because of efficiency. Because once something's on automatic pilot like that, the brain bandwidth is freed up for more complex thoughts and decision-making reaction. And so the brain wants to put things into habits when it can. And so just, you know, a lot of things can become habits. And so I think a routine is a string of habits. So most of us have like a morning routine and we can kind of sleepwalk through that routine without much effort. We can be very preoccupied with like, you know, what am I going to eat for lunch today? Or, you know, what am I going to do about that big meeting?

And just go through the motions to get it done. Now, in one way, that's very powerful and helpful. Of course, there's a downside to habits, which is that they speed time. Because when you do things, you know, I'm sure everybody's had that experience. Like you drive to work and you're like, oh, my gosh, how did I get here? I don't remember a single thing that happened. It's kind of terrifying. And it deadens.

It deadens. If you are anxious about something, if you do it habitually, you will become less anxious, but you will also become less excited and thrilled by it. And so it has a deadening quality, which for many people they really resist habits because of the speeding and deadening quality. It's something really to think about because they're very powerful, but habits also do have that.

So it's not like you want to actually habitualize everything in your life. You want to sort of strategically habitualize the things that make sense. Right. And, you know, when people make different decisions, like one thing, a habit that many people have pointed out to me really caught people's fancy is when there, I think it was a Vanity Fair article reported that President Obama wears like the same exact outfit because he doesn't even want to waste even like that shred of decision making on like what color suit to wear and so but for some people of course that would that would be they would hate

that they like part of what they love is like they love picking up their crazy socks or expression yeah or like I love picking you know they enjoy picking out outfits and so the thing is is sort of like to make habits of the things that that you really want to make happen or that don't interest you. A lot of people, for instance, leave the same thing for breakfast or lunch every day because then it's just like, I don't have to think about what I'm having for breakfast.

I just get up and make it. I always have the ingredients because I know what I need to buy at the grocery store because I always have the same thing for breakfast. But it's just something always to be aware of, that there is this trade-off. Now, and I love habits, so I try to make many,

many things habits. What would you personally never, ever, ever make a habit? Like, what is the farthest thing in your daily experience or monthly or whatever in your life where you're like, I would fight not to turn this into a habit? Well, I don't know, because even things that you enjoy, like I love going to the library, but going to the library is a good habit. Because once I get there, it's like a new exciting experience every time. So just doing going there, going there is because sometimes it's just like, we don't do the things even that we enjoy. And so you kind of have to make a habit in order to have fun. I think people don't often spend enough time making fun habits, they very focused on the habits they think they should have, like exercising and getting more sleep.

But make a habit of going to the library. Make a habit of going for a walk in the park with your dog. Or make a habit of cooking or whatever that is fun for you. All these things kind of sound like a drag, too, for some people. But whatever is fun for you, make it into a habit so that you make sure you make time for it. And I saw that also. I mean, actually, while I was researching my last book with a lot of artists, painters, they massively ritualized the point up until the point where the first brush stroke goes.

And then from that point, total freedom. Yes. But it's like you've got to get to that point. And that's what you use the routine for. No, I mean, and you see pictures where they have incredibly specific way of laying out their brushes and their paints and everything so that they don't have to spend a second thinking like oh where's that orange that i want or where's that one particular kind of brush um yeah i mean i think sometimes people think that creativity means like crazy habit i mean that's one thing

i've noticed with with with artists is they tend to know exactly what they need in order to be productive and creative. And they are relentlessly rigid and determined to bring about whatever it is, even if that's chaos, which some people thrive in chaos. Well, they create chaos. Or if they need order, they need to sleep later, they need to, you know. Maybe you remember. I can't remember who it was, but I remember reading an article about there's a famous author who wrote every page in every book in like the corner of this old diner.

The diner burned down. And so he had like an exact replica built in his backyard. Oh, my gosh. So that he could just. Like had the exact same feng shui. He was like, I can't write unless I go through the ritual and I go to the diner and I'm sitting in my same seat. Oh, isn't that interesting?

Wow. No, I don't know who that is. I can't remember who it is. It'll come to me. Well, the great, a great, perhaps apocryphal story is Victor Hugo, who allegedly to force himself to write, took off all his clothes and gave it to a servant. So don't come back till five or whatever. So it was like, he didn't have anything.

He was like stuck in the room with a pen. It's like, okay, I guess I'll write a masterpiece because I am stuck here. Got nothing else to do. Yeah, so you're naked. I don't know that that's true, but it's a good story. That's funny. So you start to dive into it

and you start to immediately say, okay, there's a whole bunch of stuff that wasn't covered here. And I think one of the big things that jumps out, it jumped out at me, that jumps out at everybody, and I think this is probably a thing that a lot of the conversation is building around, is you identify sort of this grid of four different personality types. First, take me into how you even started to come to that, and then let's talk about each

one of them. Oh, okay. Now, I have to say, of everything that's in the the book i think this is the most original uh it certainly was yeah totally it was the most hard i mean i struggled with this framework for months to understand it and then like when it all fit into this perfect like fell into place and in this perfect way it was like i felt like i i it was like the periodic table of the elements. I, you know, I was like, I, you know, but it's, it's perhaps more like a sorting hat of people. And it's even beyond your habits. This, this touches on habits, but it's even, it goes beyond habits in terms of how it divides people by nature. So what it has to do, and it sounds kind of boring, but it gets interesting.

So stay with me. It has to do with how you respond to an expectation, when there's an expectation placed on you. Now, there's outer expectations, which are things like a speeding limit, a work deadline, a request from a spouse, so that's coming to you from the outside. Then there's your own inner expectation, like I want to keep my New Year's resolution. I want to get back into meditation. I want to write a novel in my free time. I want to start a blog for fun. Your own inner expectation. And it's how people respond to outer and inner expectations.

So the first category is the upholder category. And that's people who respond readily to outer and inner expectations. So they keep a work deadline. They probably finish early. And they can easily keep a New Year's resolution. They don't need a lot of supervision. And they tend to be very interested in expectations and want to fulfill expectations.

And I know this tendency very well because that's my tendency. I'm an upholder. And it's funny, if you talk to people who write books about habit formation, a lot of them are upholders. It's pretty funny. Because we like habits and we're good at forming them. So, of course like oh if everybody would just do what we did it'd be great so basically like 90 of this book sales is going to be by yeah yeah right like yes finally well that thing is any intervention will work for some people because upholders basically don't need an intervention um the

next are questioners and questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they tend to resist anything they think is arbitrary or irrational. It matters to them, like, why am I listening to you? Why are you telling me what to do? Why should I do what you say? They love research. The justifications are really important to them.

So in a way, they make everything an inner expectation because they have to endorse it. They have to believe in it themselves. They don't accept it just because it comes from the outside. They have to internalize it. But once they make up their mind to do something, they can do it without any problem. Then there's obligers. And obligers readily meet outer expectations,

but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And earlier I talked about my friend on the track team. And so that's her category because when there was a team, when there was a coach, then she had no trouble showing up, but it was just her own expectation for herself. She had a lot more trouble following through. And so those are folks where they meet deadlines, they need deadlines, and they meet deadlines with supervision, things like that. But when no one else is paying attention, they really struggle.

And then there's rebels. And rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do, what they choose to do at all times. If you ask or tell them to do something, they'll very likely do the opposite. And they don't even want to tell themselves what to do. So it was very interesting to me, like, how do they form habits? Because they don't want to do something like, I'm going to go running four days every morning, because

they would never bind themselves like that. And what I found, and what was funny about this is because when I started out, I was like, oh, I'm pretty typical person. And what I found out when I did this framework and started to see where people fell, well, it turns out the very, very small scattery by a long shot is rebels very few people are rebels but what surprised me was how few people are upholders even is that the smallest category represented rebel is the smallest category upholder is bigger than rebels but it's not very big and so many things in life became clear to me when i realized that i thought i was typical but actually i'm on the freaky fringe that upholder is a very extreme personality and my husband i said to said to my husband, I was like, oh, I'm this extreme personality type. And he's

like, well, I could have told you that. It's like, how did you know? He's like, I've been married to you for many years. So I don't think it came as a surprise to anybody, but I didn't realize it. I didn't realize like how different I was. Most people, by far, by far, by far, most people are either questioners or obligers. These are the two dominant categories. And then rebel and upholder are the two kind of flanking very much smaller categories. So why, I mean, there's a whole bunch of things I'm curious about now, but big picture first, why does this matter? So it matters in a lot of different ways. It matters if you're trying to work with other people, because if you can see how they see the world differently from you, you can relieve conflict. Or if you could see how to get them to do what you want, that also is helpful. meet an inner expectation. And how can we successfully do that? And I think there's a lot of implications for how you would work with yourself and how you would work with other people

to get them to have habits. And the most glaring example, the biggest example, and I think the people for whom this framework will be the biggest kind of key to habit change, is if you are an obliger, which as I said is a very large category, people who readily meet outer expectations, but have trouble meeting inner expectations, it's very easy to fix. It's totally simple to fix. All you need is external accountability. Once an obliger has external accountability, they fulfill effortlessly. And so you just have to figure out how to put in that piece. In a way, obligers have it the best because the counterbalance of the negatives of their tendency is the easiest to plug in. And I've heard of all these ingenious things that obligers do.

Like one obliger said, well, I always wanted to read more for fun, but I could never make time. So I joined a book group where you're really expected to read the book. So now I read all the time. Or I heard this crazy story about two obligers where to exercise, they would exercise at the same time. But then at the end of this, at the end, when they were ready to go home, they would each exchange a shoe. So if you and I go to the gym, if you don't come next time, I can't work out because you've got my shoe. So you have to come. Or, you know, and then this is where coaches, you know, health coaches, executive coaches, personal coaches come in. Also, you know, trainers or even like I have a friend who wrote a memoir.

And I mean, like, why does this matter? I think if you know this, then you can behave differently. So here's an example where people didn't know about this and they behaved in a way that was not helpful. So I had a friend who was going to write a memoir and she went to her editor and she said, look, I'll tell you the thing about me is I only work under deadline. I have to have somebody waiting for something. I have to have deadlines. So if you don't give me any deadlines except for the due date, I'll have been to write it all three weeks before it's due and it's going to be really bad. So give me all these dates in the meantime and make me pretend to me that they're really

important and force them and then I'll write. And the editor, instead of being like, oh, you're telling me what you need, I'm going to do that they're really important and force them. And then I'll write. And the editor, instead of being like, oh, you're telling me what you need, I'm going to do that. The editor thought like, oh, well, I'll be like the cool guy. And I'm like, he was like, oh, no, no, no, take your time. I know it's going to be amazing. You're such a genius. Like, like do it at your own pace. And I was like, well, what happened? She said, I wrote the whole thing. Like the catalog copy was in there. Like you have to hand this book in now or we're never going to publish it. I wrote it in three weeks. It could have been a lot better. But the fact is, if she'd known she was an obliger, and if he'd known about that she was an obliger, maybe he would have been much more, taken it much more seriously. Or if he wasn't willing to pay that role, she could have

hired a coach or had a friend be an accountability partner or used an outside editor. There's all kinds of things she could have done. Because she sort of understood that it was key, but she didn't really understand it enough to, to when the editor wasn't willing to do that, to kind of come up with a backup plan. So I think, and then, and then sometimes just understanding how the world is different from you makes you more patient. Like as an, one of the things that's very striking about upholders is we want other people to tell themselves what to do. And so we can become very impatient when people need deadlines and supervision and reminders and stuff. And we feel like, of course, which is more demanding, it's more demanding to be like, I want you to do it yourself. Not only do I want you to do it, I want you to do it yourself.

But now that I realize that my way is pretty unusual, it's given me a lot more forbearance and understanding how other people want things structured. Because I'm like, well, my way doesn't work for them. It doesn't help them succeed. And so why waste my breath? Let's think, like, I want to understand, like, how could we set this up so everybody could succeed? Yeah.

So what are your kids? You know, it's hard to tell. It's surprisingly hard to tell with rebel children, you know. But it can be hard to tell with children because children don't really, they don't have a lot of free will in terms of meeting expectations. Probably hard for them to even sort of express. Yeah, I know it is. But I think my younger daughter is an upholder.

Because again, like rebels and upholders, it's a more extreme personality. So it kind of, it sort of emerges. But a lot of little kids are sort of upholder because again, like rebels and upholders, it's a more extreme personality. So it kind of, it sort of emerges, but, but a lot of little kids are sort of upholder ish. Um, so I don't know. And then my 15 year old, I can't figure it out. I think she's a questioner, but I'm not sure. The Apple watch series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

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Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So it's interesting because I took the quiz. No, you took the quiz. Yes, I have this quiz. So you've known each other for a chunk of years now. Okay. Well, I'd have to ask you some questions because I don't know that I've analyzed you in this way. You want to ask me questions? You want me to just tell you what happened? Oh, tell me what you are. Tell me what you are.

All right. So the quiz can't – I'm just going to make sure because I wrote it down just to make sure. So the quiz said that I was an obliger, which I never would have pictured myself. Like when I looked at the four different categories, I would have said questioner. Because I kind of question everything. And I'll do it if it makes sense to me. I'll devote all of my energy to it. I don't need external accountability. And I'm very sort of action-oriented.

So it really surprised me. But I really want to think of that. I'm like, huh, what am I not doing that I really keep saying that I want to do? Where, like you said, if I put in some sort of external accountability, boom, it would just solve the problem. So I would say two things. One is this is just meant to be a tool. It's not infallible.

It's just meant to be thought-provoking. So I'm not saying that you definitely are that. If you really feel like it doesn't fit, then I would go with your gut. But then I would also say some obligers are just super clever. They are so automatic at thinking about how to build an external accountability that it's almost like they don't even realize that that's what's happening. You know, and like somebody I know who lost a bunch of weight started a blog about it, and she said,

I started this blog so that I wouldn't be able to gain the weight back because all these people are watching me. And I'm like, well, that's a really clever obliger strategy because now you have all this external accountability. So sometimes people are obligers and they don't look like obligers, because they can, they're getting everything done. They don't have a feeling of like, oh, I'm, I'm not doing my own expectations for myself, because they figured out all these tools. Yeah. That's interesting, actually, because I have, you know, so we've got teams working

on projects and products and campaigns and events constantly. So you're accountable to the machinery that you've created. Yeah, and we've got schedules and deadlines and tasks and processes. And there are dependent things that I have to hit a certain deadline or else everything gets pushed back. So you could just be an obliger who's just created an infrastructure of accountability. And the thing is, these matter only, these are really helpful if there's something that's frustrating you and you can't figure out how to fix it. Some people don't have frustration.

Like my mom's an obliger, but it doesn't trip her up in any way, really. And then some obligers feel very thwarted by it. And so for them them it's a really pressing thing but same thing with question or some question i mean all of these things have big upsides and big downsides and i think and i think with maturity we all learn to sort of deal with them and take advantage of the good thing and and try to mitigate the negatives um so i don't know i don't know and also it doesn't like people you could be super sometimes people think questioners are like people who are intellectually

curious any any of the categories can be really intellectually curious or ambitious or not ambitious or considerate or selfish and it and it so it comes out looking very very different like a considerate rebel looks very different from an inconsiderate rebel yeah or an intellectually curious upholder looks really different from an upholder that's not very intellectually curious. So there's all these things that make people have all this. Yeah, there's like a lot of nuance. There's tons of, but it's as to this one little thing.

But as to this one thing, it's very, it really falls into this pattern in my experience. So if you are an upholder and you're either in a relationship with or a parent of a rebel. Yeah. Well, I don't think you could be in a relationship with a rebel. And one of the most fascinating patterns that I've observed is that in every case in which a rebel is in a long-term relationship, it's with an obliger. That is the only pair. That's the only. And I will say obliger, they're like appropriately, they're called obligers

because they are the type O. They're the type that gets along with everybody. Yeah. I don't think you could have a successful pairing, romantic pairing of an upholder and a rebel because they just see the world so differently. It would just be an enormous source of conflict. Okay, so then let's go to the next level

where it's not a choice. You are the parent. And you're an upholder and the kid is a rebel. Okay, so here's the thing. Whenever I, like, I like to speak about this because I'm obsessed with it. And I love to, like, have people raise their hands so I can get a sense of people in the audience and stuff.

And I know you have had this experience when you're speaking. It's like, there's always the people who run after you because they were so desperate to talk to you about something pressing. The people who run after me are the parents of rebels because it's very hard to be the parent of a rebel child. And so I've talked to a lot of the parents who do have rebel children, how do you do it? And this is the thing, and it's hard for parents to hear. But this is what one mother kind of summed it up. She said, the thing is, is that you have to present, you have to give them the information they need, present it as something that only they can decide, and then look away.

Because if you're watching them, that is imposing an expectation on them. But if you look away, then they can decide. And the thing about rebels is they're often very ambitious, they like a challenge, they want to do things in their own way. But you just sort of have to be like, you're gonna have to figure this out. Now, the other thing is, if you feel like playing a dangerous game, rebels definitely have a spirit of opposition. And if you ask or tell them to do something, they will very likely do the opposite. And sometimes people use this. For example, I know a woman who went to Harvard, and I often wondered, I wonder how a rebel like her was able to do all the stuff a person would have to do to get into Harvard because she just seems like she would balk at that. And it turns out when she was in ninth grade, the guidance counselor said to her, a girl like you could never get into an IBM school.

And there she went. And another friend of mine was saying how whenever she told her mother she was going to stop playing piano, her mother would say, you know what, you really aren't making much progress. Like, why should we spend the money? And then she's like, then I wanted to stay with it. You know, so there is there is this sort of spirit of opposition. But you know, I think to a lot of parents, they wouldn't want to do that. Now. But another thing to remember, is that rebels want to choose to do something, and they will do it as an expression of their identity. And so if you can tie something to as an expression of their identity, then they can do it. So you could say something like,

well, I know it's important to you to be a good team member on your baseball team. And if you don't go to practice, then you're not being a good team member. And it might be that they're like, that's right, it's important to me. Like, I want to be authentic to myself. And so rebels will often say that they will have habit like behaviors if they feel like it's a way to express themselves. So I want to be a successful leader. Therefore, I'm going to go to the staff meeting on time, even though I think it's stupid, because a successful leader has to be present or whatever. And so if you can tie it to their identity, tie it to their choices, this is what you choose. This is what you want. This is what's fun for you. You're not doing it because I tell you. You're not doing it because I say so. You're not doing it i say so i'm not you're not doing it because you're supposed to you're not doing

that because what that's what the rules are but you're going because you like to do it this is what's fun for you oh you know this is a science project but you love science oh my god you're the guy you have the chops to do this like uh you know i bet someone like you could do an amazing job but it's up to you you know what i mean and then they're like maybe i want to do an amazing job because i am good at science and if you had said that exact same thing to somebody else who's a different orientation, it would like shut them down. Yes. I mean, that's the thing.

Yeah. Well, and he realized that as a parent, like I realized like to be the parent of an upholder is also risky because you can mess with their heads very easily. Like, you know, saying something like, yeah, you should enter the spelling bee. I bet you would win. And then off somebody goes and spends a thousand hours studying for the spelling bee without even really thinking it because you just sort of threw out this expectation. Or I think sometimes upholders tend to be very focused. They really want to know what's expected of them and they want to meet that expectation. And that can seem, especially to questioners,

like annoyingly rigid or like you know for example a questioner was saying how his son wanted really wanted to be in school at exactly 7 45 like that's when they were supposed to be at school and like his son was like we have to be there right at 7 45 i can't be there at 7 50 and his father was like well you just sit in the classroom for 15 minutes what does it matter to a questioner it's like 7 45 is an arbitrary time as long as you're there when school starts it doesn't matter and that makes sense to a questioner, it's like 7.45 is an arbitrary time. As long as you're there when school starts, it doesn't matter. And that makes sense to a questioner. He didn't understand that to his upholder son, it was very distressing to have a rule

out there and to just be blatantly breaking it. And so again, it's like, well, this is how they see the world. Like, can I choose out of love to accommodate somebody else's way of looking at the world? And it also has really interesting implications on an enterprise level. Because if you're putting together a team. Yes, 100%. Right?

It's like you got it. You're looking around like, okay, who do I need? I was talking to a YPO group and all they wanted to talk about was hiring. Yeah. I mean, because it's really got a lot of interesting implications there. Well, and you have to think about like, if you've got obligers, then you need to make sure that you have deadlines and supervision and that feeling of accountability. But another thing about obligers is they will burn out very easily

because they don't have a good counterbalance. There's like no off switch almost. Yeah, and also if you keep asking them to do stuff, their tendency is to say yes and to meet that expectation. And by the way, who do upholders, questioners, and rebels ask to do stuff? They go right to an obliger because you know the obliger is the one who's most likely to do it. And an upholder is going to be like, I'm sorry, I'm too busy.

I'm not going to do it. I've got my own problems. You know what I mean? And a questioner is like, why is the one who's most likely to do it and a holder is going to be like i'm sorry i'm too busy i'm not going to do it i got my own problems you know what i mean any questioners like why should i do it why should i do it um they're all like i don't feel like it um so obligers are i think often uh put upon i think that i think they feel that way and i think it's true um and so they if you're managing an obliger you might want to um because obligers have this really interesting uh pattern where every once in a while they have obliger rebellion, where they kind of snap and will refuse to meet an expectation almost arbitrarily. But if that happens in the workplace, it can be like really a problem. And so you want to make sure as a manager that you're giving the obliger, like, you know, if you're saying something like, I see that you haven't taken any vacation days, I really expect you to take those vacation days. We're looking at, we're looking at it.

We're watching. We know that you need to take that vacation. So it's like, you have to know the triggers for each time. Yes. And kind of keep your eye on it. Yeah. And make sure that you're, you know, and then an upholder. So like with an upholder, a management problem might be like, okay, you have something that's due every Friday, and then you have something much more important that's due on a Friday. Well, to an upholder, it's like, well, they're both due on Friday.

They're both due on Friday. That's an immovable thing. But you could say to the upholder, usually we want that weekly report on Friday, but right now this other report is more important, so I need you to make that the priority. Because once the expectation has been changed, then they can adapt. But they might be very, very unsettled and not do as good a job on the more important thing because they would feel like, well, I can't let somebody down as to this other

thing because that's a very established. And then with questioners, it's just they can be extremely useful because they're the ones that are like, why are we doing it this way? Why are we doing it at all? You know, I mean, that's healthy because organizations tend to, you know, get so much stuff just accruing that they, you know, it's good to have a questioner. But they can't exhaust and drain people with their constant questioning. And, you know, people want to be like, look, everybody formats the report this way. Like, why are you doing it your own way?

Right. We don't want to have this discussion anymore. Question things that matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even like, oh, this does matter, but like we've come to rest or a decision that's been made or sometimes uh questioners will feel like they can't make a decision until they have perfect information but you can't get perfect information ever right so you need to say to a question or something like i want you to interview the top four candidates no more than four because they might feel like they had to

interview 15 candidates because they want perfect information and uh and into like setting boundaries we need a decision by friday give me your best shot by friday i have a friend who basically couldn't operate in a job because she was so brilliant and such a researcher but she couldn't just pull the trigger she could never make a decision and i think if they had just said like somebody else she just needs to give everybody everybody the 98% and let them decide, it would have been fine. But they didn't understand that was the issue. And so she wasn't able to succeed, even though she was great at the fundamental task of the job. And I'm thinking also, you and I can talk about this stuff for hours. I think like the classic creative pairs, like the classic agency creative pairs also, you know, like how dyads.

Yes, compliment. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. We're in the process, like as we're actually doing this right now, every year we do this annual immersion program, a seven-month intensive program. And we get a ton of people applying, way more than they ask for. So we're in a very nice position where we can choose. Right.

And we can really curate the group. And it's interesting because I'm always going through, I'm like, what's the criteria that I'm actually using to piece the puzzle together so that we get a dynamic, right. You know, with 30 to 40 people from around the world and we want to create a good

dynamic, which is interesting, engaging where people challenge, but at the same time, it's all benevolent. yeah. Yeah. And so now this is actually spinning in my head. Cause I'm like, interesting engaging where people challenge but at the same time it's all benevolent and yeah um yeah yeah and so now this is actually spinning in my head because i'm like we're literally in the middle of this process right now and i'm like huh it'd be interesting for me to kind of go

through the people who are coming in and trying to get a beat on what they are yeah um when we put it together yeah yeah and it's i think the rebels would jump out really quickly. But here's a weird thing about rebels that really surprised me. They're often attracted to areas of high rules. Like many clergy are rebels. What's up with that? Yeah, police, military. It's like they're drawn to these areas. And I've spoken to a lot of them about it.

So as to clergy, somebody said it's because in a way, in most traditions, the clergy in a way is the last word on something. You know, like they are the ones that, because one thing about rebels is, this is not, some rebels don't want to tell anybody, they want everybody to be free. But a lot of rebels are totally fine

telling you what to do. So they're fine, like they find, they just don't want to do that. Yeah, they can delegate, they can order people, other people, they can tell other people what to do, they don't want to be told themselves so something like the clergy where they're like they are giving the word no one tells them what to do because they're like accountable to god but then they are they tell others what they're comfortable with that but and they are also free from rules in a way and if you see a lot of clergy

a lot of times they do behave in ways where you're like why would somebody like that feel like those rules didn't apply to them but they don't seem like they think the rules apply to them. So it's interesting. And then some people were, some rebels were saying they like being in a place like a highly, like in a organization with a lot of rules because they can be like, ha ha, look at all the rules I didn't follow. So it's sort of fun. And they often say they need rules to react against or expectations to react against in order to be productive. Like if they have no expectations, they kind of don't have enough energy to go. But when they're reacting against something else, then that propels them into their own kind of success.

So it's sort of like, well, tell me what you want and how you want me to do it. I'm going to ignore that. I'm going to go do it my own way. But you got me going in a sense. And then with the military and the, it's interesting. I mean, there's a certain kind of freedom that comes from having these deep rules. And it's just this very striking pattern among rebels that's very surprising. Yeah.

And as soon as you said that, Ashley, I'm thinking about, you know, I grew up in a suburb of New York City. I'm thinking at one point I realized going back there, I'm like, so a lot of the kids who were getting chased by the cops when we were in high school are now the local cops. Isn't that interesting? Like, I wonder how prevalent that is across small towns, you know, like around. That would be very interesting. Yeah. Yeah, because one rebel said to me, I decided I had to either be like a policeman or a criminal. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting.

So I want to circle around with two questions. What do you think is the role of this work, understanding which of the four types you are and the people who you sort of relate to on a given day? And just sort of the idea also, the broader idea of really understanding habit and the role of habit in life in the context of living a good life. Well, you know, I think habits are important because for a lot of people, they help them live that good life. You know, like when they think, well,

how could my life be better? They think, well, it would be better if I weren't so tired all the time. It would be better if I was making more progress on my, you know, art project that I've been winding into, or I would feel better if I had more quality time with my family. Like they, and so I think by whenever, one of the things people often say is like, make healthy choices. And I'm like, don't make healthy choices, make one healthy choice, and then stop choosing. Because every time you choose, you run the risk that you're going to choose wrong. So if you're like, well, I want to spend time, I want to work hard, but I also want to spend time with my family. And if every night you're like, oh, what time should I stop working tonight? Like you could

spend night after night, day after day, month after month, you could be spending no quality time with your family. But if you're like, okay, my habit is that I stop work at seven, then you don't have to make that, you don't have to go through that calculus, that draining calculus every single time you just decide. And so I think that's where habits can help you have that good life because they can make it more automated that you stick by the decisions that you want to make. Because a lot of times people, they have this idea of what they want, but they haven't put in the systems in place that will help them do it consistently. And a lot of these things, it's not today or tomorrow or even a week.

It's like, how do you do it indefinitely, which can be kind of terrifying. Some people don't like to think about indefinitely, but that's really what you want. So it's not really about short-term choices. It's about really building in long-term behavior that's beyond question, just like brushing your teeth. No, that totally makes sense. And I was going to jump right to our final question, but actually there's one other thing that I want to sneak in before that, breaking bad habits.

Well, breaking bad habits is a lot of times just the flip side of a good habit. So you can kind of carry it. And some people like to think about the bad and some people like to think about the good. So you might think about eating more healthfully, but or you might think about giving up sugar, you might think about getting more sleep, or you might think about turning off the light, you know, or like feeling more rested and turning off the light. So I think usually it's they're just the flip side. You know, it's it isn't different for making good habits and making bad habits. It's just about instilling the habit that you want or squelching the habit you don't want. Got it.

Last question. It's like, yes, we made it. No, what is it? Yeah. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offered that out to you to live a good life, what does it mean to you? My motto is that,

because so many people talk about balance and all that. And I think that's not a helpful way for me to think about it. So I think about I want to cram my life with the things I love. And the more I've thought about happiness and habits, the more I focused on the things that really make me happier, which tend to be reading and writing. Because I do not I'm not well-rounded person. So I spend a lot of time thinking, how can I do more reading and writing? Literally, like how can I do more reading and writing? And how can I have deeper relationships and how can I broaden my relationships? Because I realized that's how I really have, get happiness. And how can I be energy, full of energy? You know

what I mean? Like meaning an energy to me is good health and it's being rested and not being too hungry, but it's also like being in an environment that's conducive to calm and to energy and having enough time to go to the gym or go for a walk with a friend, like having a margin. Thoreau said, I love a broad margin to my life.

And I like that. I like having, like not feeling rushed, not feeling pressured. And that's about it. Reading, writing, friends, and energy is a good life to me. Love that. Perfect place to wrap. Thank you. Thank you.

Hey, I really enjoyed that conversation with Gretchen. Caught me thinking big time about the four different personality types, which one I am and how that really affects the way that I interact with the world and behave and interact with people and form my own habits in my own pursuit of a life well lived. If you found it valuable as well, would so appreciate if you just head on over to iTunes, take a couple of seconds, and let us know. Share a review or rating.

Always honest. And if you found this episode, the conversation, valuable and you think other people, maybe friends or family would enjoy it and benefit from it, go ahead and share it with them as well. And as always, if you want to know what's going on with us at Good Life Project, then head over to goodlifeproject.com. And that's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

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