Good Life Project - Gretchen Rubin: The Four Tendencies (how to start and stick to anything).

Episode Date: September 4, 2017

Guest: Gretchen Rubin is the New York Times bestselling author of several books, including The Four Tendencies, Better Than Before and The Happiness Project.On her weekly podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin, she discusses good habits and happiness with her sister Elizabeth Craft.Want to hear more from Gretchen? Listen here to her 2015 conversation with Jonathan.About The Four Tendencies: During her investigation into understanding human nature, Gretchen discovered that when it comes to our ability to start and stick with anything, people fit into Four Tendencies: Upholders, Questioners, Obligers, and Rebels. Our Tendency shapes every aspect of our behavior, so using this framework allows us to make better decisions, meet deadlines, suffer less stress, and succeed in nearly anything meaningful.Big Idea: Gretchen reveals the surprising truth about the four hidden personality types or tendencies that drive everything we do. Learn how to understand yourself better—and also how to influence others more effectively.Current passion project: Her new book, The Four Tendencies: The Indispensable Personality Profiles That Reveal How to Make Your Life Better (and Other People's Lives Better, Too). Join more than 600,000 people and learn more about your tendency by taking The Four Tendencies quiz here. ----------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I got this very poignant email from a woman who said, you know, I don't like reading about your tendencies because when you describe them, you make it sound like people can't change or they don't grow out of their tendency. I'm married to a rebel. And don't you think that just someday he's going to grow up and realize that people can't just go through life doing what they want to do all the time. And I was like, well, the fact is, I don't think he's ever going to realize that. And I don't think he's going to change. And the fact is, you can go through your life just doing what you want to do. And your husband's clearly figured that out. Today's guest is an old friend of mine, Gretchen Rubin. She's actually been on the podcast before. You may know her from her massive runaway bestseller, The Happiness Project, Happier at Home, Better Than Before. Gretchen and I have known each other for a pretty long time at this point.

We started out in this tiny writer's circle or writer's group in New York. And I've had the benefit of having a lot of conversations with her over the years. And when she came out with her prior book, Better Than Before, which is all about habit, she keyed in on and introduced this concept that she called the four tendencies. And they are all about how we meet expectations, meaning how we actually do what we claim to want to do. That's at least my overlay. And Gretchen had this sort of massive awakening that we all fold into one of four tendencies and when you understand what your tendency is, it kind of profoundly changes the way you live in the world,

the way you relate to other people, the way you understand people and the way that you structure your life and your interactions with people and the world in order to support your quest to do things, to meet your expectations, to consistently meet the expectations that you set for yourself in life. She has a new book out called The Four Tendencies because when she shared those tendencies in a smaller way in her prior book, the conversation around that exploded and led to sort of this global

thing where she decided she needed to go way deeper into understanding the mechanisms behind it. She created a quiz that you can take online, and we'll share that in the show notes. And she has now had something more than 600,000 people complete that. So she now has a giant data set validating a lot of the ideas behind the tendencies and incredible stories. So I wanted to sit down with her and dive deep into these four tendencies and the book, The Four Tendencies, because it goes way deeper into these and shows the nuances, the light side, the dark side, and how to navigate them. Really excited to share this

conversation with my friend Gretchen Rubin. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need

to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

So good to be hanging out with you. Yeah. This is so fun. As we hang out here, we've known each other for years now and we've had other conversations that we've shared on both of our podcasts, actually a little bit about our backstories. So I kind of want to dive right in with you because you've been working on something that has fascinated you for a long time now, and it kind of grew out of your last book. Yes. So tell me what happened here. So I set out to write a book about habit change, which ended up being my book better than before. And so I was like, okay, well, what are the secrets of habit change? Like, how can people change their habits?

And as I got into it, I started noticing, so first of all, I noticed, okay, there is no magic one-size-fits-all answer. And if somebody tells you that you should do it for 30 days or do it first thing in the morning or- But all the books tell you there is. I know, but there's not. It's like, it all depends on you. So what I learned was that it really depends on you and that there are 21 strategies that people can use to make or break their habits. And so that I was getting. But the thing that was puzzling me, kind of the deeper pattern that was puzzling me was people kept saying certain things to me that didn't ring true for me personally. So they were kind of, they were sort of striking me because they didn't,

they were saying things that I didn't identify with, but they were saying it as if they thought it was like a universal truth. And they were saying exactly the same thing. Like it was uncanny how all different people of all different personalities would say these similar things. And I was trying to figure out the pattern because it clearly had a lot to do with habits. So, for instance, when I would talk to – because I am kind of like a happiness bully, as my sister calls me. And so I would constantly be talking to people about their habits, when they could change them, when they couldn't change them. And so there was a group of people who all said something like, well, I can always take time for other people, but I can't take time for myself. And that struck me because I don't feel that way.

I don't feel like that's true for me. And then there was another group of people when I would say something like, well, how do you feel about New Year's resolutions? They would say, well, I would keep a New Year's resolution if I wanted to, but I wouldn't do it on January 1st because January 1st is an arbitrary date. And I was like, huh, never really bothered me that it's arbitrary. Like they all use that word that really struck me. And then I had this conversation. I had several kind of like epiphany style conversations. But one, I was at a cocktail party and a woman said to me, we were talking about habits. And she said, well, I don't want to have any habits. I don't want to have routines.

I don't want to lock myself in. And I said to her, well, for me, discipline is my freedom. And I really believe that. That is true for me. And she looked at me like I was nuts. And she said, that doesn't make any sense because freedom means no rules. And I was like, wow, we really see the world in a different way. And then I realized we do see the world in a different way. And I began to see how people fell into these very big four categories that explained why they were saying these things to me

and why this was showing up in their habits. And it was showing up in lots of different parts of their lives. So you started to look the all these different sort of preferences and profiles and and and it's interesting because because this is something that i know you've been working on for a long time and that you kind of you introduced the idea in your last book yes right so you teed it up you're like okay i've discovered this thing and it's kind of cool. Yeah. And what was the motivation to say, okay, like this one thing, like I wrote this whole book, it was all about habit and there's great information in it, but there's this one thing that like there's something so much bigger that I have to spend so much more time on. Well, it's interesting because what I found was, okay, so you, I mean, you've gone on

book tours, you have your books that you've talked about a lot. And so you give a book talk and when you design a book talk you always pick like the juiciest most interesting bits to talk about because people are just with you for like a half an hour 40 minutes so you like carefully craft the talk so it's like all the best parts so i picked all the best parts about habits and things that i thought were counterintuitive and helpful and surprising and like you know things that blew my mind when I figured them out. And then we'd come to question and answer. And all anybody wanted to talk about was this personality framework, the four tendencies. 85, 90% of the questions would be about the four tendencies. Did you have any idea before this, like that was going to happen?

Not necessarily, because I had other ideas in there that I thought were really cool and could, and I had heard from people that they were really transformative. And then once the book came out, I started getting more and more questions from people asking super specific, very sophisticated questions about the four tendencies that clearly revealed that they knew exactly what I was talking about. They were right there with me and understanding it. And they were asking about it in very specific context. Like I got an email from a doctor in London about treating his patients with cerebral palsy. Or, you know, I would get, I got an email from a guidance counselor in a prison who was trying to help somebody with

pass or GED requirement. Like these are super, super specific situations where people were like, these are my observations, these are my questions. And I just realized that I had stumbled onto a framework that was really had a lot more implications than I had first realized, because I was writing about habits. So that's, that's a big subject itself. So then I thought, well, you know, I really need to go deeper into this and figure it out for myself and then for other people, too. Yeah. And it's so interesting, because as soon as I read that part, also, I got really curious and we've talked about it,

you know, just sort of between us. Well, you love this stuff. Yeah. You're like the idea. Because anything that, so one of my fascinations, and this is one of yours also,

right, is how do you craft some sort of experience that moves a person to take action that in some ways is beneficial in their lives? And then how do you do that for yourself too? Because it's not necessarily the same process.

And the tendencies, these four things were for me as somebody who spent years as a copywriter and trying to develop that languaging and those experiences to really create the container for change. It's so eye-opening because, and one of the things for me was like, ah, it has to be different. Like there is no one sort of story or message or approach that is going to work. In fact, like if you just dial in one, you're automatically going to alienate anywhere from, you know, like 80% of like everybody else or just not speak to them in a way which is going to move them to take action. Well, and I think that's exactly the key point. And that's the thing where so many people feel

frustrated because they're like, well, I'm a doctor and I'm telling people to take their medication and some people are doing it and some people aren't. But why am I succeeding sometimes and failing other times? Or like certain people respond to this, but then other people don't. And they don't really have an explanation for that. And I think you can't just assume that you're going to be, if you were only clever enough, you could find the one universal solution. Because the fact is, it's just people aren't the same. So they respond to different things. And like you say, sometimes they respond to opposite things.

Yeah. What made you land on, how did you know it was for? Well, I mean, it was truly like the most grueling intellectual task of my life. And I say that as somebody who worked on a lot of ERISA opinions, which is this horrible retirement law. John, you're a former lawyer, so you know what I'm talking about. I saw these patterns, and I could feel that there were patterns there, but I couldn't figure out what they related to. I couldn't figure out what was at the heart of it. And I didn't know how many there were because I didn't know what it was. And so I just kept having, but I would have these things that would stick in my head, like this conversation, probably the most important conversation I had with somebody

was when I had lunch with a friend and she said, I know I would be happier if I exercised. And when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? And this question just haunted me. I knew the minute she said it, that it was a super, super important question and that I had to figure out the answer. And so I'd had these things floating around in my head. And then one day I was just sitting there looking at my to-do list. And for some reason, I thought, you know, I'm meeting my expectations. And I realized that was the key. It was this idea of expectations, outer expectations and inner expectations. And once I saw that, I began to see

how the four tendencies fall into these perfect overlapping categories. So there had to be four, there could not be any more than four because four took care of, do you meet outer expectations or do you resist outer expectations? Do you meet inner expectations or do you resist inner expectations? It's sort of like four covers all the... So it starts out with inner and outer, and then there's got to be the four variations because they're sort of like the permutations. Yes, exactly. So you just go through. And so I hadn't really quite understood it until I began to see how once you identify that, then the pattern really comes into focus. Yeah. Do you remember the moment that you were like, bam, like, this is it? I remember looking at the to do list and thinking this is expectations. And

I mean, and I knew at that moment that that was the key thing. But then it took me a time to like, plot them out. And then I couldn't, I couldn't visualize it. Because I kept thinking, what do you call it two by two when it's like four boxes, right? And I was trying to put them into the boxes, but I couldn't figure out how they related to each other, like which one went where. And it somehow, but then when I realized it was actually a Venn diagram in a diamond shape, the minute that I saw it and it was like meets inner meets outer, meets inner resists outer, resists outer, resists it. I mean, once I saw that, I was like, oh my God, this is it. And I remember when I did that, when I sketched out the circles and realized that it was like, you know, it's like a fern frond or a nautilus shell. You know, it has this elegance of nature that always is kind of symmetrical. So it was perfectly symmetrical. Yeah. And I want to go into what these different things are also. And what was really interesting

to me in the the new book when you like take this just vastly fuller exploration of these things is how you then figured out that there are moments of overlap between the four and then which ones actually overlap in which way which had to have been like a whole nother just really interesting exercise well it was really that i mean it's funny that you pick up on that because that was really hard. And I remember like thinking like, well, what would it look like to be in a, like an upholder who overlaps with an obliger and like what, you know, cause, and then like going to a party and talking to somebody and I'm like, here you are exhibit a, you're clearly an upholder who overlaps with obliger. And this is how your upholderness is different from my

upholderness. Cause I'm an upholder, but we're different. We're different variations on the upholder theme. And so, yeah, that was really exciting when I was like, wow, not only is everybody in a core tendency, but they also sort of tip one way or another. So it's kind of like astrology when you're something with something else rising. Yeah. You're like, yeah. I want to dive into the four expectations. But I want to actually see if we can just i want to

make sure we create absolute clarity around what we mean by expectations yes because is it goals is it outcomes like it's about meeting expectations but tell me more about what you mean by that so that's a super important question and i really wanted to get away from the word expectation which is a very boring word but it really is the only word that works because it's just something that is expected. So, and something like a goal, well, it's, you know, it gets kind of ambiguous because it's like, well, I say I have this goal, but do I really have this goal? Because I keep, I've been saying that I really want to lose weight for 30 years, but I really haven't done it. So what does that mean that that's my goal? So an expectation is like, this is something that is expected of you.

So there are outer expectations, which are things like work deadlines or a request from a friend. And then there are inner expectations, which are like your own desire to meet a New Year's resolution or your own desire to start practicing guitar every day. No one is expecting that, but you're expecting it of yourself. Even if you've never told anybody. It's like you said it, it's internal, but that's yours. Yes. And exactly to your point, sometimes what many people do is they will turn an inner expectation into an outer expectation,

which is something I say that many people should do. But if I go to you and I say, hey, I'm going to practice guitar every day and I'm going to send you an email every time I do it and you're going to send me an email every time you do it, we've changed an inner expectation into an outer expectation. And that's a very important shift.

But I think the only the word expectation is stripped of kind of emotional content and like extra associations. One word that I hate and never try never, never, never to use is motivation, which I think is one of the most confusing words of all time, because it's like,

I'm deeply motivated to do something. What does that mean? Does that mean I'm actually going to do something about it? Does it mean I just wish something would happen? Like, is it like you were saying, how do you translate desires into action? Motivation sort of confuses that.

Yeah, I think that word also has a lot of baggage. Yes, yes. There's judgment, there's a lot of feelings about, well, this is fake, it's part of it. Or like if I just wanted something badly enough, I will do it. Which many people think if they just whip themselves into a frenzy of desire, then that will make them take action, which it doesn't. Like, that doesn't work for most people. And so it's just not a helpful idea to bandy about very much. So expectation is just like, is this expected of you?

Yeah, I like that. And it's interesting because it really does. It's sort of like it's about as kind of close to a neutral. Yes. Yes, that's exactly the aim. It's interesting because kind of close to a neutral word. Yes. Yes. That's exactly the aim. It's interesting because I've looked at the stuff that you've been working on and also a student of B.J. Fogg's work on his behavioral model about how we achieve things. He's a man who believes that he's got the right answer.

He does. Yes. And his model, for those not familiar with it, is four simple letters. Behavior equals M-A-T, where M is motivation, A is ability, and T is a trigger. And his thing is if you want somebody to do something or if you want to do something yourself, it's a blend of having a high enough motivation, having a high enough ability, and then having a trigger that basically says, okay, it's time. How do you feel about that? And how does it interact with the tendencies if it does at all? Well, it's interesting because like whenever you talk about, whenever someone's interested in the idea of motivation, it always makes me think that they're probably an upholder or a questioner because upholders and questioners,

and this is getting into like the differences among the four tendencies, questioners and upholders are the two tendencies that respond to inner expectations. And often when they are describing the way that they respond to inner expectations, they will put it in the language of, all I needed to do was to get clear of what I wanted. Once I knew what I wanted of myself, then I could follow through. And so they feel like this clarity, this is what gives them motivation. And sometimes rebels can do whatever they want to do. So they're like, well, I wanted to do it so that they kind of get to the same place by different routes sometimes. The problem is, is that doesn't work for obligers. And so obligers are often very frustrated because they

really want to do something for themselves and they can't do it. And the fact is, it doesn't help them to think about why they want to do something. It just doesn't. I mean, you could say that it should, but it just doesn't. It doesn't work for them to think about that. Now, and a trigger can work for them if the trigger is somehow tied to outer accountability. I don't feel like it's universal, and it's hard to see how you would apply it in a way that works for a lot of people. And then there's a lot of things where it's kind of hard to think of like, well, sure, I'm motivated and I have the ability. But like, why don't I quit smoking? Or like, why don't I, why do I, I don't know.

To me, it's not as simple and straightforward as an approach. And it's interesting because in BJ's work, what he'll tell you then is that most people focus on trying to increase motivation so somebody will take an action. Yes. And he says that's the least effective way to do it. I 100% agree with that. The way to do it is to try and affect your ability to do something, making it so simple, which I think is where he comes a lot closer to change somehow your ability, your environment, things like that in order to sort of like meet that expectation. Well, so for me, like in Better Than Before, I talk about things like the strategy of convenience, which is much more like, well, if you make it easier to do something or clarity, like if it's clear what

you're supposed to do, like I'm going to do this for a half an hour every day or the strategy of other people, like bringing in other people's influences. Like, I think that there's a lot of ways to break down. I think that that's absolutely correct. I sort of use a different language to approach it. But yeah, I think that's right. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

So let's just quickly just define, actually define the four different tendencies. Okay. So it is about how you meet expectations, outer expectations and inner expectations. So there are upholders, questioners, obligers, and rebels. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. So they meet a work deadline. They keep an year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what's expected of them from other people, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. They hate anything arbitrary or irrational or unjustified. So they make everything an inner expectation because if it meets their standard,

then they'll do it. But if it doesn't, they resist. So these are the people who think January 1st is an arbitrary date. They don't like anything arbitrary. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. So this is my friend on the track team who could go running when she had a team and a coach waiting for her, expecting her. But when she was just going running on her own, she struggled. And rebels rebels resist all expectations outer and inner alike they want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time and if you ask or tell them to do something they're very likely to resist and typically they don't even want to tell themselves what to do so this is my friend who said freedom

means no rules she was a rebel and like now looking back on that conversation, she was like, I would now, she checked every box of rebel. So those are the four tendencies. And I really truly do believe that just about everybody fits into one core tendency. Yeah. And it's interesting because it's not always immediately easy to figure out. No. Yes. And you know, like I, so what you went, you actually created, I mean, there's extensive information sort of in the book and I want to dive into some of that. But a couple of years ago, and I think you did this when the last book came out, you

created the quiz where you can go and ask the questions. People can still take it. It's at happiercast.com slash quiz. A lot of times people don't even need to take it, but it's there if you want to take it. And like, I think I'm closing in on 800,000 people have taken that quiz. So you have a massive data set at this point. So this is now like you started with this idea. Okay.

I think there are these four tendencies. Yeah. The light bulb went on. You're like, this just makes sense to me. I can now scan everybody I meet and basically say, you're this, you're this, you're this, you're this. Watching Parks and Recreation. I'm like, I see everything.

Yeah. I'm like, you must move into a room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do. It's funny because there are people where I definitely communicate with them differently, knowing their tendency, because you can really just, like you say, how do you message people

in a way that communicates with them? And there's people where I'm like, I'm talking to you in a different way because I don't want to push your buttons. Yeah. And which is, it's, it is this incredibly useful tool. So even if you don't have the ability to have every person say like, go fill out the quiz, which can be really useful. I agree. I think it is like you pretty quickly can get a sense, like a pretty strong sense for who different people are. And one of the things I did, and I think I shared this with you a while back when we were enrolling a recent program of ours. We tested this. So all I did, because I didn't, I kind of, I took, I think it was the original just four descriptions that you put on your website a couple years back. And I just tweaked them and modified them so they're fairly straightforward.

Just so that as people filled out an application for one of our programs, I could get a sense for which one they were. And the reason I did that was because I wanted to see how they would fit into the program. I thought it would be a good idea to have a blend of different tendencies within the program. But also part of the application process was getting on an interview with me and having conversation. And I wanted to understand how to satisfy the expectations of that person. How would I need to tailor the conversation in order to give them what they needed, to

have the information that they needed to understand. So if it was a questioner, I knew that instead of me sitting there and for a half an hour, basically asking them a whole bunch of stuff, I was probably going to ask them five minutes worth of questions and then say to them, tell me what you need to know from me. So it's so fascinating to use this as a tool in so many different ways. And that was just this really, I wasn't even really using it. This was just winging it in a really rough way. But as a tool for industry, for psychology, for so many different things,

I mean, the potential applications are kind of stunning. Well, it's funny because sometimes I'll see an advertisement or something like that and I'll be like, or I love signs in offices. I'm a big student of office signage. I'll be like, well, that's an obl, but I'm like, this is the message, which is you think you're free, you're controlled, you're chained, you're being dragged around by nicotine and you're pouring money into the pockets of big tobacco. You're enslaved. And that to a rebel is the worst thing. They want freedom choice. The idea that they're being renegade, well, they like that. A lot of times they don't mind going against the grain, but they don't like the idea that they're being pushed around or told what to do.

And so I was like, that's a really compelling PSA for a very targeted audience. Yeah, and by the way, guys, if you want to see, Gretchen also loves to share a lot of these signs on her Instagram feed. So if you want to see some really funny examples, you can totally check out the Instagram feed. And send me a sign if you see signs for the tendencies, because I've got some good ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you want to see some really funny examples, you can totally check out the Instagram feed. Yeah, and send me a sign if you see signs for the tendencies because I've got some good ones.

Yeah. Oh, the Rebels hate, like, thank you, you know, thank you for not speeding. They're like, that just makes me want to speed because I want to do

what you're telling me to do. But this is interesting, right? Because they had, like, the classic thing that was on cigarette boxes for a long time in cigarette ads was, I can't remember

whether it was... Well, it was information in this country, but then I think I remember seeing, it may not have been in the US because they may not have been cool with it, but maybe in Europe, they were actually putting photographs of diseased lungs on the packs of cigarettes. So you wonder how would that affect different people and their behavior? Yeah. Well, see, that's one of the things that really was puzzling to me as I was writing the Habits book is that people don't seem to care that much about the negative consequences of their bad habits. I mean, you'd think that they would care a lot, but the more we emphasize to them, like, it's really, really, really bad for you to be doing this. It's like, it doesn't seem to move

people as much as you would think. Like something like 50% of American adults don't take prescription medication for a chronic health condition. And you think, well, do they not believe that high blood pressure is bad for them? Do they, like, why aren't they doing it? Because I think in the United States, what cigarette packets, they had information.

I'm like, this is, that's for questioners because questioners are like, why should I give up smoking? It's like, this is why I should give up smoking. And upholders are like, wow, I'm really not supposed to smoke. So then they would quit. But with an obliger, when obligers are like, why should I give up smoking? It's like, this is why I should give up smoking. And upholders are like, wow, I'm really not supposed to smoke. So then they would quit. But when obligers quit smoking, it's usually something like, well, now I have a child and I realize I just can't do this anymore.

Or I realize that when I get enough sleep, I'm just there for my clients so much better or something like that. It's about an outer expectation that they can more readily fulfill. And if the box says this company owns you, the rebel is going to be like, oh, no, they don't. Yes, that's right. Exactly. Exactly. Like, hey, sucker, you just bought another pack.

Thank you for that money. They'd be like, what? You're not the boss of me. Ah, so interesting. Yeah. So you could see for a doctor, you could really tailor your, when you were explaining why somebody should take medication, you could really hit different messages. Yeah, totally.

Because the biggest, I mean, when I talked to friends who are physicians, the biggest complaint consistently across the board is I tell a patient, this is what needs to happen. It doesn't happen. And when you look at people who have had coronary incidents, heart attacks, and you look at what happens afterwards and the data that I've seen is the you know, like the vast majority of them go back for like, you know, like the early phase of cardiac rehab. And then as soon as they're far enough away from where the pain of the incident isn't sort of present with them on a daily basis, so many of them revert to the exact same behaviors, lifestyle behaviors that led to the incident in the first place. Yeah. No, I mean, it's a really big problem. So how do you reach people more effectively? And like, one of the things is that, I argue that what obliger for inner account, inner expectations, obligers need outer accountability.

Now, in the health care context, a lot of times people are aware that outer accountability works really well for people. And so there are systems in place for some people in some circumstances to get outer accountability. The thing is, it's very expensive. And the higher the level of accountability, the more expensive it is. But I argue not everybody needs it. So the thing is, is like, don't give a lot of people something that only some people need. Don't over, don't over, you know, provide a service. Similarly, questioners have a tremendous number of questioners, which is a huge problem for doctors because they don't have the time. But I'm like, you've got to get those questioners the answers they want, or they're just not going to do it. I mean, I had a friend who was just diagnosed with diabetes, and he was explaining his conversation

with his doctor. And it was just like, he said, I had a million questions, and I was just, I wasn't going to do anything until I absolutely understood every single thing. And that's really burdensome. But the fact is, a lot of people don't need that level of, it's not like every single person who comes in is going to ask you 100 questions. But for some people, it's really, really important. Or maybe you give them a pamphlet or you point them to resources that they can get to. But it's funny because I was at the dentist and my dental hygienist was like, you've got a lot of tartar buildup.

You really need to brush more. And as I was walking, I'm like, you know, that's not really very satisfactory because she didn't tell me like, what is tartar? Why do I care? You're here scraping it off. Can't I just have this done? Like, why do I have to like, does brushing even work? Because I already brushed my teeth.

Like, what am I going to do differently? Like, she sort of told me, she kind of gave me medical advice. And as an upholder, I'm probably like, well, yeah, I'll brush more. But it's like, if I were a question, I'd probably like, well, yeah, I'll brush more. But if I were a questioner, I'd be like, what are you talking about? What is tartar even a thing? You can't just lob that out and expect people are going to dramatically

change their behavior. Right, and I'm a questioner, so I would have gone home and gone on the internet and be like, what is tartar? Why does it matter? Is the whole thing about like, which is interesting, right? Because there were a couple of years ago,

there was some random study that came out that claimed that flossing didn't make a difference. And it was this huge thing in the news. Yes, I saw that. Right? And if you're a questioner, you're probably like, well, let me learn more. Like, maybe it really doesn't make a difference. And then the dental industry was like, no, no, no, no, no. it's like well i think that i think what what they really said was that it had never been studied but everybody was like there's no study showing that it works it was just like they'd never studied it right but as a questioner you're like well don't tell me to do something if you don't have any actual basis for recommending it yeah no and so i'm a questioner yeah and and we know this because i actually took the quiz twice and you scream questioner by the way yes right it's like i'm constantly i'm, I'm like, tell me, like,

explain to me why this is valid. You love data. You're constantly. I love, I want to know the why behind everything. And as soon as I know it, I'm good. But what's interesting about me is that, because originally I thought I was an obliger. And for those who, to recall, that means I meet external expectations, but not necessarily my own internal ones. I don't tell anyone. So, and the reason I thought that, and was because, and we talked about this a little bit, because if I make a promise to somebody else or if there's a rule or like if I say I'm going to hit a deadline to somebody else, it happens. It always happens. But if I tell myself I'm going to work out three times a week or I'm going to cut sugar

from my diet or this and that, sometimes yes, sometimes no. And what I was focusing a lot of that on also was the food side of it. And so I want to bring this up with you again too, because you shared something that kind of made me say, huh, which is that when you're dealing with expectations around behaviors that may have an addictive aspect to them, things shift a bit. Yeah. Those are just very, those are really tough and different. So something like super sweet tooth, which is what I have, or yeah, or drinking or cigarette smoking. It's, it's those just, they get their hooks into really, really hard. So it's interesting. I did a survey of like a

nationally representative survey. And one of representative survey, about the four tendencies. And one of the questions was, have you struggled with addiction? And everybody answered the same except upholders. And upholders were less likely to answer yes to that. And I didn't say addicted to what or anything. It was just, have you struggled with addiction? So there does seem to be something about the upholder tendency that protects people against addiction. Probably that they put such a high value on inner expectations and sort of performance.

But for something like Girl Scout cookie box out on the counter, or also see as a questioner, like in your mind, it could be like, well, what's more efficient if I go to the gym or if I do this work now? And I know that if I do this work now, then this process is going to go faster because these people can get back to me by Friday. You know, like a lot of times, questioners come up with loopholes

to let themselves off the hook because they're so good at justifying things. Right, and I found that about myself. Yes, you're just like, you're like, well, it's not that I'm blowing it off. You're not like, I'm sitting here on the couch. You're like, I'm actually going to like run these numbers or I'm going to get this thing crossed off my list.

Or it's like, I make a cost benefit now. Yes, you see, okay, there, right there. I said I was going to commit to this, but I'm going to get this thing crossed off my list. Or it's like I make a cost-benefit analysis. I'm like, well, I said I was going to commit to this, but right now, now I have more information, and I realize that this other thing is actually more important right now, so I'm not going to do that. Okay, cost-benefit analysis right there. That's questioners. Yeah. So you can use that, though. You can harness that once you realize that that's the pattern. When you're like, okay, you can talk yourself through that. Once you realize that's the pattern. When you're like, okay, I keep, you know, you can talk yourself through that. Once you realize that's how your mind is operating in a way that you're not sticking to that habit. Yeah. All right. Grit. The four tendencies and grit. Grit has been all over the news. Angela Duckworth, which is the whole idea that those who are most successful at almost anything in life are the ones, there's universal trait which he defines as grit which is you know some blend of stick-to-it-edness

doggedness like never never never never quit and and those are the people where like you know they outperform everybody else they they get what they want more than everybody else what's your sense of that and what's your sort of exploration of how the four tendencies interact with the concept of grit? I just don't understand how grit isn't the thing that means that some people succeed and others don't, which then it's just like, well, it's like, these people are successful, therefore they have something in common. What is that thing? Let's call it grit. I don't really understand like exactly what that is other than just putting them all in a category that shares something, which is that they succeeded in something. I

don't know. To me, it's not, I haven't found it to be that helpful, a framework of thinking about people's actions or how you could suggest that they would do things differently. I mean, to me, it's always like, okay, given who you are and the way that you succeed or fail, what can you do to help yourself have the life you want? And so like, if you've said to me, well, I'm an obliger and I can never meet my inner expectations. I can never keep my promises to myself. I can always make time for other people, but I can't make time for myself. I always put my client first. I always put my patient first. I always put my customer first, but then there's nothing left for me to do for myself. Then I'm like, okay, create outer expectations

for that. That's a very simple fix. Take a class, get a partner, hire a coach, think of your duty to other people. There's a million ways to do that. That's the fix for it. Or you're a questioner. It's like, okay, well, you got to get clear. Why are you doing this? You say you want to exercise three times a week. Let's run the numbers on that. Let's find out the research for that. Why in the long run is that really the most efficient thing that you could be doing? Because that's, you know, or you want to hire somebody to be your, like, to be your nutritionist or your exercise coach. Let's really look at that person's credentials so that you really trust their authority,

you know, and then we're going to customize it for you. Questioners love to customize. Like, here's a plan, but let's tweak it for you. You're like, you're special. What exactly works for you? You don't have to do it the way everybody else does it. I'm laughing because it's so me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, they don't want, and then like, ooh, let's monitor. Like, let's get information about you. Like, oh, don't, how do you feel after a month of exercising three

times a week? Like, do you see a difference? Is this sufficient? Is it making a difference? Because if it's not making a difference, don't do it. So you can go through. So I feel like it's like, do we have, is this information about ourselves that tells us how to go forward differently? Yeah. Which was also the interesting thing about grit also was that it was sort of offered at as this is a thing, but there was no, how do you get it? Yeah. I mean. from potentially interacting with the concept of grit is that my translation of grit is just you meet expectations on a consistent basis

for a long period of time. And that yields an outcome. That's a great definition. Okay, now I see the whole thing clearer. Okay, that is a great definition. Okay, so then this is what I would say. What are the circumstances that would allow different people to meet expectations consistently? Because here's something that puzzled me for years.

So I know you're familiar with the big five personality traits, which is considered right now to be the leading framework for understanding the basic elements of a person's personality. So one of the elements is conscientiousness. And one of the things that puzzled me, which now I realize why I was puzzled because I'm in a polder, is that to me, I would look at people and I'd be like, on a one to five scale, like I'm a five. That's just true for me. And I see that some people I would say are ones. But then there's some people who are threes, not because they're sort of conscientious, but sometimes they would be very conscientious. And then other times they would be totally not conscientious in a way that to me made no sense you keep saying something's important to you so why don't you do it like why are you conscientious for work but you can't be conscientious for yourself i couldn't figure it out it didn't make sense to me it's just like you just do it yeah yeah right and so it didn't make sense to me but now i understand like that's how obligers are they're super conscientious as to outer expectations but they're less conscientious as to inner expectations. So how do we solve that?

And the thing about the tendencies, like as in comparison to the big five is this is just one narrow aspect of a person's personality. So we could have, you know, your question or we could line up 10, 50, 50 questioners.

And depending on how ambitious they are, how considerate they are, how intellectual they are, how adventurous they are, how extroverted they are, how neurotic they are, all these things would mix up and they would look completely different from each other, except as to how do they respond to expectations. And that, they would be very much like you. And you would find yourself being like, yeah, man,

why is it that people will just, why are they like lemmings? They'll just go along and do whatever. Like, why do people behave this way? Why don't they stop and act? Like, they just, I'm not going to do it just because you tell me to. You've got to tell me why we're doing this. And it's funny when you see groups of people of the same tendencies, they think alike so much that they're just elated with each other. Right. It's like, how is anybody else? How does anyone else live? I know. I got these upholders together and it was hilarious. They were just there like, what is the deal with everybody else? What is their problem? And I had two rebels.

I was at a conference where I had – it was a rebel. One was a nurse from Ireland, and one was a doctor from Singapore. And it was like these people were soulmates. They were frantically talking. And, of course, I was like, now it's time to go back to the keynote. And they were like, no, we're going to keep talking in the corner because they're rebels. So they're like, we're going to talk if we want. Rules don't apply. Yeah, come on.

Let's talk a little bit about each of the four things. So upholder, which you are. And as a reminder for those listening, the upholder is the person who meets both inner and outer expectations. So whether you tell somebody else or whether you just tell yourself, like, this is what I'm going to do, it gets done. It just happens. It always happens. That's the way you're wired. Well, it's not always easy. Like I struggle to exercise. I hate making phone calls, but I would say it's much easier for upholders than it is for other tendencies. Where do upholders go dark side? Well, one thing is that they experience something like that I would call tightening, which is over time rules can get tighter on them and they can be sort of choked. Like the person who's like, oh, I started out with a Fitbit and it was fun to do 10,000 steps, but now I'm jogging next to my bed in the middle of the night to get up to 10,000 steps because I can't go to bed until I've hit 10,000 steps. This can also be bad where you get somebody in your office who's like, well, I'm not going to accept your report because it's a half an hour late. And you're like, hey, man, it doesn't matter

if it's a half an hour late. You weren't going to read it anyway. And they're like, nope, the rules are rule. You know, that can be very, they can be very judgmental too. If they don't understand why others are having either won't or don't meet expectations. So they might, let's say you have an upholder boss and you have a question or he keeps saying, well, why should we do this? The upholder is like, why do we have to spend all this time talking about it? Like, just get it done. Or an obliger's like, they might say to an obliger, well, you know, when you have some time, will you get me these numbers? And the obliger's like, whatever. And they, it's like, there's no supervision, there's no deadline. Like, no, I'm not going to do that

until you tell me that you really need it and when. And then upholders and rebels tend to have a lot of trouble because they just see the world in completely different ways. One is like all about rules and expectations. The other is like the exact opposite. Yeah. And upholders tend to love schedules and routines. They really thrive on that. And then rebels really resist schedules and routines.

They tend to really not like. Some will like it in their own way. But often like they really value spontaneity. They like every day to be different. So the more the upholder's like, well, let's make a schedule for Saturday, the rebel's like, oh, gosh, no, I just want to wake up and let's just see what we feel like doing. It's just a very different way of seeing the world. Right, especially if you're in a relationship with that person.

If you're a life partner or something like that, that can be brutal. It is. It's rare. It's rare that upholders and rebels pair. It is. But it's rare. Right. It's rare that upholders and rebels pair up. Just because it's too hard. Yeah. And it's interesting with rebels, if they pair up, either in romance or work, they are almost always paired with obligers.

If you're a rebel, obligers are type of, they're the biggest tendency. That's the one that most people fit into. Both men and women alike, biggest tendency. Then questioners. Rebel is a tiny tendency. Upholders are only slightly larger. So those are the two kind of extreme tendencies. They're small. So obligers are paired up with everybody, and they're the typo. They get along with everybody the best. But if there's a rebel, it's almost always an obliger by their side. That's interesting. It makes sense too. or sleepy. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations,

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don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk you know it's interesting when the the tendency is um so i have a a close friend of mine who has studied the enneagram for years and years. Yeah. And, you know, so it's this typing system where there's nine different types. And what's interesting about it is you have, like, you get your type, but then you also have, you know, you could be a seven who is integrated or disintegrated. And you integrate into this sort of higher state. And then you disintegrate into, like, your lower state. So, like, whatever the dark side of that is, you know, when things aren't going right or you're not maintaining yourself or whatever, it's like you go dark side.

That's what I like about the Enneagram. It's dark. It doesn't, it's not like, it's not like, it's not like the astrology where it's all good news. It's like, oh man, you got problems. You know, you're a one, like there's a lot of ways that can go bad. Yeah. But, but so it was interesting because when I looked at, when I, when i you know when we we first started talking about the tendencies and when you first

shared it with me i was like this is really fascinating and it wasn't until this new book came out where you start to show the overlaps and you start to actually show you know like okay so there is sort of like a light side and a dark side to each of these tendencies too and here's what we should do about it yeah i thought that was a really fascinating part of the conversation oh well that's great that's great yeah no to like probe into that and what i found is that a lot of times they're the same it's like the upside is the downside and we've all seen this in life it's like the thing that is like your core strength is often your achilles heel as well so like questioners their strength is that they always ask questions they're analytical they're

saying why are we doing this they you know they they want to know why. But so what's the downside of that is sometimes they drain and overwhelm people with their constant questioning. They're seen as being, you know, insubordinate or disrespectful because they don't seem to show respect for other people's authority. And sometimes they have analysis paralysis because they just want more and more information before they act. And sometimes in this world, we can't wait for perfect information. So they become, you know, either a bottleneck for other people or just drive themselves crazy because they can't. Interestingly, I'd be curious to know if you've experienced this. Many questioners say that they have an easy time making big decisions, like I'm going to move to New York City. But then they have

trouble making small decisions. Like a friend who said, this woman who wrote to me said she spent a year trying to figure out the best planner. She's like, I just like couldn't stop researching and thinking about all the different factors. So it was little things seem to be harder than big things. Totally me. Yeah? Yeah, because I will spend, you know, like, I'll spend a lot of time researching the best electronic toothbrush. You can spend a lot of time doing that. But then it's like, you know, how am I going to commit a chunk of money to the next business?

And I'll be like, okay, so here's my analysis. I'm going to do it. And then I'll just make the call and move on and make it happen. So the big things, it's like, let me just make the decision and then respond. Which is interesting because I'm an entrepreneur. And I've been through the process of starting, growing, selling a series of ventures. And I'm constantly launching new stuff, which means that I must be fiercely committed to decision-making and action-taking and knowing that a lot of those

things are going to be bad decisions, you know, and getting used to the fact that that's okay. It's actually more important to just make the decision and then just respond. Because that decision will give me data. And then as a questioner, I I'll be able to I'm constantly on the watch for that data and then I'll make a different decision based on that data so I'm always looking and scanning but see if you were a questioner who suffered from analysis paralysis I would say to pursue that line of thought which is exactly what you've articulated

which is why you're successful while you've harnessed the strength of the tendency, which is it's not efficient to continue to ponder and to continue to wait. The most efficient thing is to make a decision because whatever the decision is, more information will follow. So it's still an appeal to efficiency.

It's that not deciding is less efficient than deciding. So more information is not worth the cost of it. But it's interesting that you're an entrepreneur because a lot of questioners I know who are entrepreneurs have said, I don't trust anybody else to do the research. I don't trust anybody else's judgment. I know that if I make a call, I've done the work, but I don't really trust that other people have always done the work. Yeah, which is why I'm consistently a bottleneck in everything that I do. Because you want to know. Yeah. Yeah. And because I know that, like, I've developed my sort of, you know, like, discernment and research skills to a level where, like, I'm going to be pretty

confident if I do the work to make the decision. And it's taken me a long time to find people to sort of bring into teams and projects where I'm like, okay, I just trust you. Go do it. But see, this is the thing where sometimes I think it's good to know other people's tendencies, because maybe you do have more of a shorthand and more of a trust. If somebody was like, hey, I'm a questioner. I get it. You'd be like, well, you know, I think you probably do get it. Because like I was working with when my podcast, Happy with Gretchen Rubin, our first producer was Henry Malofsky, who loved Henry. And my tendency is pretty rare, upholder tendency.

And Henry is an upholder too. And one of the things I like knowing about it is that upholders are really good at drawing boundaries. They're really good at pushing back. And so like, I can do things like email him on the weekends or like send him a lot of like really extreme requests because I know he'd be like, yeah, man, I can't do that. Or like, he'd be like, I'm going to Croatia for two weeks with my family. So like, I'm just not going to answer emails. I'm like, that's fine. As an upholder, I want you to push back. And one of the things I don't like is that some tendencies aren't good at pushing back, so you have to be more considerate.

I mean, only until recently, I always sent work emails on the weekend. It never occurred to me not to send work emails on the weekend because I'm like, well, people don't want to answer emails over the weekend. That's fine. That's just like for them to decide. That's an upholder view. But what I realized is that is considered super impolite and like a major violation of boundaries. And many, many people feel like it's like not what you should do. And so now I know how to use delay delivery and outlook and I will delay delivery. Sometimes I don't remember, but I try to, but it just didn't occur to me. And that's, again, like if you don't, if you don't know how other people see the world differently, you don't know how to adjust. Once I understand like, okay, other people don't see this the way I do. I can't act the way I do, assuming that everybody would respond the way I

would. Yeah. Because people are different. So be polite, do the right thing for other people. It's so interesting you say that because I've caught myself knowing that I have somebody who Do the right thing for other people. if they get something from me in their inbox. And knowing that I don't want to, I want to break that expectation, I'll start the email by saying, you know, like sending this because I just have to get it out of my head. Yeah, yes. You know, I have zero expectation that you'll respond until Monday.

Yes. To kind of let them off the hook. Like I reset their expectations. Like it's okay not to respond. Right. No, and I think this is one of the things that really helps in a lot of circumstances, which is just to be very clear about expectations.

Because sometimes people just think that there's just miscommunications and misfiring assumptions. So like, you might say, let's say you had somebody working for you and you were like, you know what, I really need to get these numbers by Friday. And they might be like, wow, okay, well, so I'm gonna stay up till 3 a.m. to get you these numbers because you said that was really important to you. So I'm gonna meet that expectation. Well, in a way, that's why, so that's an obliger. That's super valuable.

Sometimes you want that person to do it. But if you're like, it's really not, so you don't wanna mischaracterize something. So that's because an upholder might be like, well, I know you need them, but man, you didn't get me the data until 5 p.m. I need to get my sleep. So that's on you.

As my sister says, your lack of planning is not my emergency. But so in different circumstances, we sort of value or heroicize different responses. And so but when you make expectations clear, then everybody knows how like nobody has to guess how to behave. If you're like, this is really important. I need you to do whatever it takes. Well, okay, then let's do whatever it takes. If you're like, this is really important, but like, you know, go home by seven. Like, don't stay later than seven. You know, if you can get it to me sometime during the day on Friday, that's going to be fine. Okay, that's a clear expectation. But when it's all kind of vague, then people just

sort of fill in their own default setting and then they sometimes miscommunicate. Then people get resentful, they get burnt out, they resist. It's not good. Yeah, so we've talked about upholders and I know I use the phrase dark

side, but... Yeah, no, it's dark side. It is. The strength, it's the limits and the weaknesses. And tightening is a furrow pull. There's four questions that seems like analysis paralysis. Analysis and then draining others. Right, and draining others. So a lot of times questioners need to learn how to ask questions in a way that don't make others feel defensive.

Make them crazy. Yeah, make them crazy. Yeah. I've learned that. Yes. Yeah, I bet you have. Right, because I have to be like, okay, so this is also coming from a place of genuine curiosity, like I'm not attacking you. Yes. I just really want to know. I want to understand. Well, this bet you have. Right, because I have to be like, okay, so this is also coming from a place of genuine curiosity.

Like I'm not attacking you. Yes. I just really want to know. I want to understand. Well, this is a problem. I don't know if you had trouble in school because a lot of times questioner children are seen as being disrespectful because they're like, well, why should I learn about Mesopotamia? Or they will refuse to do things that they think are a waste of their time. Like I'm not going to do this.

Like my daughter had like for Spanish class, it was like a word jumble. And I was like, even as an upholder, I'm like, this is not teaching you Spanish and it's not fun. I mean, like, why are you doing this? And a questioner might've just been like, you know what, this isn't teaching me Spanish. So I'm just going to refuse to do this assignment

and then be seen as being, you know, not cooperative and not doing assignments. Whereas it's like, well, if I'm studying vocabulary for a test, I'm learning Spanish. So that's worth my time. So they can get trouble in school in that way. Now, I can totally see that.

Obligers. Obligers. Dark side there is they'll take on too much. Is it overwhelming? Well, so that's the thing. They can get burnt out and resentful because sometimes they aren't good at drawing boundaries or saying no. And they feel like they're being exploited by other people. And they feel like they're being exploited by other people. And they totally are like that is they are being exploited by other people because the polders questioners and rebels

go straight to an obliger when they want somebody to take on an extra shift, or go on to an extra committee, or do extra travel for the team, because they know the obligers are the ones that are and that's why they're the rock of the world. That's why they're great co workers, great family members, great neighbors, because they will tend to come through. But the dark side of that is they can get burnt out and resentful. And that's what I call obliger rebellion, which is when they meet, meet, meet expectations, and then suddenly they snap. And then they refuse to meet expectations. And sometimes it's small. I have heard from a surprising number of obligers who deliberately sit in their car in the parking lot in order to be late for work because they're so annoyed by somebody who keeps telling them to show up to work on time. But then sometimes it can be huge, like people who will just quit without warning. And so your most valuable employee could be like, you know what? I've had it with this place.

Everybody like I've been working too hard. Other people are not doing their share. I'm out of here. So you need to manage that as an obliger or somebody around and oblige. Yeah. And I guess if you know that somebody who you're working with or somebody in your family, somebody you care about is that person's probably good, a good idea for you to check in and say,

yes, are you doing okay? Are you like, are you taking on too much? Am good idea for you to check in and say, are you doing okay? Are you taking on too much? Am I asking you to do too much? Because they may not tell you. A hundred percent. And I'll give you two examples of exactly that. You are absolutely correct. So a woman wrote to me about her husband and she said, what I realized is that there was a pattern where every weekend we would do all the things that I wanted to get done and nothing that he wanted to get done. Okay. Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Right. That's bad. So she realized this as a loving wife. And she said, so what we do is now every Friday afternoon,

we each make a list of three to five things that we both want to get done that weekend. And then we both make sure that things on both lists get done. So he's got accountability because he's got a list that she knows about and they're making sure that it's fair. Very smart. I know a guy who started this finance group and he was telling me about it in a blighter. He's like, this guy made everybody look good. So everybody pulled him onto their team. And he was overextended. And he said at his annual review, I said to him, you're doing too much work too well. And I mean that as a sincere criticism, because it wasn't sustainable. And he's like, I couldn't risk losing one of my best employees to just burn out. And so he took him off some of those projects, not as a punishment, but to say, hey, man, you can't do this. You can't

keep it up. It's like you don't have the off switch. No, yeah. So I'm going to do that as your manager. Like you say, I'm going to step in to say, or you might say to an obliger, I want to see you leave at 7. Either you're setting up, if it's an obliger boss, you could say you're setting a bad example for the team. Or you could say, as your boss, I'm telling you to get out of here at 7. Or you could say, hey, look, I'm looking at the calendar and I see that you haven't taken a vacation in 18 months. I want to see a plan for when you're going to take a vacation by the end of the week. Impose that expectation to give them the net.

And to say things like, you know, is work being distributed fairly? Is everybody on this team taking an extra shift? I've heard from a lot of people where they're like, the same people are always the one taking the extra shifts. And then the other people are, they just get away with not doing it. That's not fair.

No, and I can totally see that because I think, And then the other people are, they just get away with not doing it. That's not fair. No. And I can totally see that because I think, and I wonder if the obliger also has more time than others because they sacrifice their own self-care and their own schedule preservation. Okay, but don't use that word, sacrifice. Because that suggests that they are doing it for someone else. And here's a terrible mistake that some obligers make. Okay. So my argument about obligers is if they want to meet inner expectations, they need forms of outer accountability. So if they want to exercise, they need to work out with a trainer or take a class or have an accountability partner or work out with a friend who's going to be annoyed if they don't show up or tell their kid, like,

if I'm not exercising, you don't have to do your homework or whatever it is, outer accountability. So when you get into language that obligers often use, like I'm sacrificing myself for others or I'm putting myself last, sometimes obligers then think, if only I could get rid of outer expectations, then I would meet my inner expectations. If I retire early, if I quit this job, if I leave my job as a newspaper reporter, then I will write that book. Then I will start that, you know, then I would exercise, then I would, you know, whatever it would be. If only outer expectations would go away, then I would meet my inner expectations. And this does not happen. Merely the absence of outer expectations does not mean that inner expectations get met for obligers. They have to have outer accountability. That is the answer. It works unless they fall into obliger rebellion, which sometimes happens like with health things like

they're in obliger rebellion. So outer accountability doesn't work, but almost with everything outer accountability is. And if you say to an obliger, when did you like my friend on the track team? When did you successfully run? When I had a team and a coach. External accountability. It's the external. And it's easy to plug it in. In a way, obligers have the easiest fix. Just tell someone.

Yeah. And people will say, oh, I'm an announcer. I'll go in and I'll say to everybody. My sister, who's an obliger, said she's a type 1 diabetic, so she has to watch what she eats. And when she goes to a new job she'll say like hey i'm not going to eat any of this food she wants everybody to be holding her accountable she wants them to be noticing and thinking like wow i see that liz is eating a donut even though she said she was never going to do it you know so to make her not do it yeah that makes so much

sense um let's just touch into the last one oh rebel, rebel. We'll come full circle. Yeah. What is, what's a rebel gone dark? Yeah. I mean, you know, rebels can do anything they want to do, but if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist and that can be hard to manage. And it can be frustrating for people when they don't understand why a rebel is not cooperating or isn't pulling their share. I got this very poignant email from a woman who said, you know, I don't like reading about your tendencies because when you describe them, you make it sound like people can't change or they don't grow out of their tendency. I'm married to a rebel. And don't you think that just someday he's going to grow up and realize that

people can't just go through life doing what they want to do all the time. And I was like, well, the fact is, I don't think he's ever going to realize that. And I don't think he's going to change. And the fact is, you can go through your life just doing what you want to do. And your husband's clearly figured that out. So that can be hard. And they can be frustrated when they don't,

they themselves can't make themselves do something. But so what works for the rebel, if you're experiencing that dark side and that frustration, is information consequences choice. You give them the information they need, you tell them the consequences of their action, and you just let... Like step away. And then step away. That's the thing. You've got to

step away. You've got to let the negative consequences fall. You can't save them. You can't rescue them. You can't shield them. Because otherwise they'll just keep doing what they're doing. Because it's working. Yeah. Which is so interesting, too, because if you look at movements, if you look at revolution, if you look at innovative entrepreneurs, so many times I think there is – I don't know if you would always classify the person who basically says the rules don't apply to me. The rules have to change. I'm going to lead a rebellion against them. See, someone of all tendencies can do that from their

own way. Right. You would assume, well, that's the rebel, but that may be completely wrong. Well, see, that's the thing. It could be a rebel, but it could also be an upholder because upholders sometimes look for the rules beyond the rules. Like Hermione Granger, like, what about the house elves? Or like a questioner being like,

this is totally unfair. Like, we have to rise up and resist this unfair system. Or an obliger who's like, I owe it to my children to create a better country. You know, and so everybody can get there. But you're right. For rebels, it comes naturally to them to think outside the box, to go against the grain. So when you see somebody who's like the first female on an oil rig or something like that, you're like, maybe that's a rebel.

Yeah. But it's interesting because then the first part of any sort of rebellious thing or any sort of paradigm shift is that you need to move people away from an old paradigm. Right. And I think my sense is like the rebellious tendency is great for that. But at some point, you also have to move them into and create a paradigm that is better than what they're leaving behind. And that requires constraints and rules and systems and process. So I think it's interesting.

I think a lot of the people who are really affected are saying this must end, this must change and rallying people around that. Then when it gets to the point where they say, and this is what I believe is possible and must happen in the future, when they have to step into setting values and beliefs and rules. Yes. That is not their thing. And like somebody new has to come in. Kind of like founder syndrome. Yeah, exactly. Right.

You know what? I should really research like movements because this is really ringing a bell, but I'm not thinking of like specific examples. But I think it's true that sometimes you need somebody who's sort of like, we need to blow up the whole system. But they might. I'm reminded of somebody who was telling me that she was a lawyer who worked on, she was like a corporate lawyer.

And I was like, how is a rebel a corporate lawyer? But she was brought in when like things were in disaster and she would kind of get through this period of chaos but then once they were like setting up the new organization she left because she and so it's very much what you're saying oh i've got to start doing a lot of research on that i think that's i hadn't thought about how that handoff might need or or like maybe if you understood the tendencies you could kind of pair up you could could be like, I'm a this, but I need to have this complementary personality. And together we can go all the way because- Yeah, Mark and Cheryl at Facebook.

Yeah. Yeah. I want to, I've got to do some research on that. That's a great- Yeah, it would be really interesting, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm really curious about this now, too. Yeah.

So let's... I think it's a good place to come full circle with all of this. The... I mean, I'm so fascinated. I think there's... You know, you have this tremendous idea, and you've now got a zillion people

who've actually taken this. You've had so many stories. So it's validated on a lot of really interesting levels. For those listening, absolutely, we'll include in the show notes a link to the quiz because you probably already have a sense for what the tendency is through this conversation but i i found the quiz really helpful in helping me especially distinguish between like am i actually a questioner or an obliger who kind of leans in well i remember you saying that when you you sort of had

a one kind of area of life in your mind sort of as you were answering the questions. And in fact, because of that in the book, I said, try not to think of one area of your life as your answer to the questions. Try to keep it very general because I was thinking that you and I had had that conversation.

Yeah, and the book was actually so helpful for me because it really, it went into it in so much more depth um and i love how we didn't have a chance to get into it really all that much here but how you did lay it out where like here's the overlap you know like here's an upholder who tips this way or who tips this way and how to really sort of like navigate those things i think um i mean such a valuable tool and certainly it's almost like a technology to to allow people to understand how to interact with each other in much more positive ways and lead to positive outcomes in the world. So full circle. We're hanging out here.

This is a good life project. So last question I always come back to. If I ask you what it means to live a good life. You know, to me, a good life is one where I meet my expectations for myself. Yeah, which is the upholder answer. No, I mean, it's like, can you identify the aims that you want and do the things that are going to bring them there? Like if I want love in my life,

how do I act in a way that I bring more love into my life? Or if I want more learning, how do I bring more learning? So to me, a good life is where I know what those things are and I'm working towards them. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's so fun. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.

If the stories and ideas in any way moved you, I would so appreciate if you would take just a few extra seconds for two quick things. One, if it's touched you in some way, if there's some idea or moment in the story or in the conversation that you really feel like you would share with somebody else, that it would make a difference in somebody else's life, take a moment and whatever app you're using, just share this episode with somebody who you think it'll make a difference for. Email it if that's the easiest thing, whatever is easiest for you. And then of course, if you're compelled,

subscribe so that you can stay a part of this continuing experience. My greatest hope with this podcast is not just to produce moments and share stories and ideas that impact one person listening, but to let it create a conversation, to let it serve as a catalyst

for the elevation of all of us together, collectively, because that's how we rise. When stories and ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change happens. And I would love to invite you to participate on that level. Thank you so much as always for your intention, for your attention, for your heart.

And I wish you only the best. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

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