Good Life Project - How One Woman Built a Renegade Craft Movement.

Episode Date: July 14, 2016

How do you go from studying psychology and religion to founding the world’s largest outdoor renegade craft fair, with outposts in nine cities. This week on Good Life Project, my guest is Susie Daly, the founder of Renegade Craft Fair. Susie’s journey was anything but planned. Through a series of exciting turns, she went from being a crafter herself […]The post How One Woman Built a Renegade Craft Movement. appeared first on Good LifeProject. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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in nine cities. And now they're going international. That is quite a departure. And today's conversation traces her journey from growing up the daughter of a successful lawyer who built his own firm in five different places, to going to school and then having this what seems to be a radical departure into the world of crafting and making and then becoming an entrepreneur who has created a pretty huge platform and also a conduit for a lot of other creators in the space to be able to earn a living. So really fun diving into her life and also a lot of the nitty gritty and the details about how she actually built Renegade Craft Fair and where she's heading with it. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project. So we're hanging out here on the Upper West Side of New York City. You're in town.

I would love to think it's just because you flew in for this, but you're actually here because you have an event that you're running this weekend. And we're going to dive into that and what it's all about and stuff like that. So you have this incredible, you should call it a movement, Negate Craft, which is a series of really cool maker slash craft slash interactive experiences around the country. I want to explore a lot more about what those are. But let's take a jump back in time, though, because whenever somebody creates something like that, where you've got hundreds of thousands of people experiencing these things around the country, I'm curious where that all came from. Yeah, I just started it for fun.

Actually, I was taking some time off after I graduated college and just kind of working in the service industry and started making jewelry and wanted to start selling my work at fairs and festivals, but couldn't really find anything that catered to the type of work I was making and the type of work I knew other people were making, kind of like independent crafters. And so I just thought for the hell of it, why don't I just go ahead and start my own? Is it okay to say that? The awesome thing about podcasts is basically you can say whatever you want to say. So yeah, first I started it for fun, and then I fell in love with it. It was an instant success. And it just felt so good to have started something like that, that people came out to something I had created. And it just felt so good to have started something like that, that people came out to something I had created. And so I just ran with it. So what did you go to college for too? I'm curious.

I actually got my bachelor's in psychology and religious studies. So from a degree in psychology and religious studies to running the Renegade Craft, were you a crafter as a kid? Were you a maker? A little bit. I made a little bit of jewelry just as a kid and my mom was a crafter, so I grew up around that. But I didn't consider myself super crafty or anything. It was just more something I did for fun and started to sell things here and there. And that was kind of just exciting. And it just developed from there. I sold my work at the fairs at first. But then once I started growing the fairs more and more, that became my real passion. And that's what I kind of just kept growing and developing.

And here we are 13 years later. So it sounds like this really, it wasn't designed to be a business. No, I didn't have any business experience. Yeah, I mean, I didn't go to be a business. No, I didn't have any business experience. Yeah. I mean, I didn't go to school for business. I had never thought I would necessarily start my own business. I kind of, you know, just like I said, started it for fun and then had to go through the process of like starting a business as a result of that. So in those early days, like so you're out there and you also said you were applying to other places, but getting rejected. What's up with that? Like it's not sort of trendy at the time. It doesn't qualify as real art or something? It was kind of like poo-pooed or something.

And it was like before craft became cool again, I think. And that's why. And then the craft fairs that were around were more just kind of like your traditional craft fairs, like way out in the suburbs, you know, nothing really catering to kind of like young independent makers that were making kind of like this new style of craft. So not very, you know, traditional, but more just kind of like everything is even just like conceived, you know, like from scratch, like no patterns or anything were being used. People were just kind of like making their own thing. It kind of started, I think, with zines and like that kind of thing, but then slowly developed into other things like clothing and apothecary and jewelry and these kinds of things.

So yeah, it seems like the just the whole definition of craft is really shifting these days. And I think that's sort of what you're speaking to, you know, when I actually grew up the son of a potter. So and she would be in the basement, she had a studio with, you know, like wheels throwing clay. And then on the weekends, we would all pack up the car with everything, you know, and then go to a street fair. Yeah. And sell all that stuff. And it was very fringe then. But it seems like sort of craft these days has become kind of hip. And a lot, it seems like there's also people changing the language around it. You know, I go to the Maker Faire with my daughter every year. So it seems like, you know, the old language of making crafts or crafting seems like a lot of people these days are talking about making. Is that the same thing in your mind? Or is it just

a shift in language? Or are they actually talking about different stuff? I think it's just a shift in language. I think it's just a more contemporary way that it's evolved into the way people talk about it or something and trying to kind of like, relate it more to it being like, more design based, you know, and more designer than maybe like traditional crafts. Like you were saying, you'd go to the street fairs or something like that. Or you go to the traditional craft fairs where it's like, they sell root beer and corn on the cob and like all these things. And those are fun too. But I think this is like a different kind of group altogether.

So it's like, we're doing the same things, but it is completely different at the same time. Yeah. Something just popped into my head as you were just saying that too, which is I wonder if part of that evolution has to do with making it feel more okay for men. I have, I mean, you've been doing this for 13 years now, so I'm not entrenched in the world. I'm curious whether you think that's all part. And actually, I'm curious what the makeup is of the vendors at your places.

Yeah, we have some men. It is predominantly women still. I don't know if those terms evolved to make it more friendly to men necessarily, but to the artists and how they feel about their work. Maybe they do feel like it's more, I don't know, it's like a step up or something from just traditional crafts. I mean, I think like crafty still has this kind of like. Yeah, as a guy who I hope is relatively in touch with sort of like the feminine in me. I'm like picturing somebody asking me like, you know, what do I do at a dinner party and me saying I'm a crafter. I don't think I feel comfortable saying that.

But I have said a number of times I'm a crafter. I don't think I feel comfortable saying that, but I have said a number of times, I'm a maker and I love working with my hands and creating stuff, which fundamentally is going to be a lot of the same stuff that you would throw under like the umbrella of craft. But yeah, I think it's funny, just like on a personal level, I'd be much more comfortable sort of under the maker label, which is weird to me. I didn't think I would actually. I don't think you're alone in that. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if that's part of what it's about also. It's interesting. So take me into this.

So you start this thing largely because you're looking for a way to take the work that you're doing and have a place to share it with people. Did you start alone or was this a. I started with a childhood friend of mine originally. And so we did it together for a few years and then kind of parted ways after that. Was there a moment that you remember where you said to yourself, this is actually something bigger than I ever thought it would be or than I intended it to be? Yeah, I mean, pretty early on, even before we had our first event,

we had people starting to apply from all around the country. And that really took me by surprise and was proof that we had kind of tapped into something that didn't exist like anywhere in the United States. So we started our first event in Chicago, but we ended up getting people traveling from like, you know, Olympia, Washington and like all these places to participate because there's nothing else like it. And so when those applications started rolling in, I was very excited. And then when we had our first event and people came out and it worked, yeah, I think it was definitely way more successful than I thought, you know, initially it was going to be. What do you think it is about what you were doing that led people to come from Olympia,

Washington? I'm imagining they probably drove because they've got a whole bunch of stuff, right? That's a long drive to Chicago. Yeah. What do you think it was about this that would lead all of these people to seek you out? I think it was kind of like just what we were talking about, how people felt like they were more makers, like somehow they were more makers like somehow they were making work that was different than traditional crafts but it wasn't fine art

either and what we were doing was very approachable and affordable and you know just kind of catering to this niche so i think that's what it was it was just really filling this void for people and they were able to connect to people that you you know, wanted to see their work specifically. And this was kind of like burgeoning online before the market, you know, happened. And so people were kind of becoming aware of each other, like people were making the same types of things in the same style. And so I think they just recognize that just kind of through our, you know, website, our branding, our messaging, and just keeping it approachable and fun. I think your branding, your messaging, I think is a huge part of it. So take me into sort of how you decided how that came to be because Renegade Craft, it's not your average,

you know, sort of like, hey, this is the name of our local craft fair. And it seems like the vibe you create in the story you're telling is very deliberate and very different. Yeah, well, that started very early on, like when my friend and I were looking into joining these other events, they were kind of expensive, and they wanted like slides of your work. And we weren't quite at that point yet. And we just wanted it to be, you know, easier. And so we were just on the phone one day and kind of talking about how disappointed we were and just like, why doesn't this event accept crafts? And like, where else could we join on? And, you know, my friend actually, I think said, you know, I wish there was just a renegade craft fair, you know, kind of like, and that's when I like all blew up. And I was like, we should just do our own.

Very cool. And I mean, it also, it really feels like you built, did that name and that idea, because it sounds like you didn't just put it, you know, take the name, but you really built, I mean, if you go to your website, you know, you've got, you know, like values and you got beliefs and you've got, it's more of like a movement ideology behind it rather than, hey, let's actually build some really cool just alternative affairs. Sure. There's definitely, I think, a lifestyle that, you know, has been built out of all this. So originally, I mean, we don't, we didn't really have that kind of messaging.

I mean, that's come a long way to where we are today. But yeah, I think we just wanted to like with the name, it just kind of spoke to people like instantaneously, you knew that it was going to somehow be different than a craft fair was a renegade craft fair. And I think people were drawn to that and like that it was kind of like this fresh new approach to a kind of more traditional market. Yeah. And I think on both sides also, because the people who were making stuff were probably like, oh, this is telegraphed into them. Like, this is cool. This is different. And then the people who were looking for somewhere to go also, it's kind of like, oh, this is not your average, you know, sort of art fair on the weekend. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just a totally different vibe.

Yep. We set up our first fair in a park, Wicker Park in Chicago, which is just like a really nice little park, like pretty setting with trees. And it's also on like a main street and in like an artistic neighborhood. And so people could just come across the event by walking by. And so we didn't even have to do a ton of advertising or anything, but just it looked fun, you know, just kind of like walking by. And I think people just love that it was like free and easy. And you can just meander through and like, meet really cool people and see

really cool work that you know, they hadn't seen before. And so, yeah, I mean, the whole thing, it still just feels like fresh to me. Yeah. What was it like the moment you sort of decided, okay, we're going to do this and we're going to commit to it and we're going to reserve Wicker Park and go public with the fact that we're doing this and we have no idea if anyone's going to show up or sign up to be vendors? I know. I just don't even think we thought through that. We just knew it would work out somehow. Or I just was so excited about it and just had the drive and I just did it. I didn't even think about what might go wrong or like, are people going to come or whatever. I just spent my time making sure that it would be a success and that we advertised and got the word out and got people to come. And, you know, it was basically just had the idea

on that phone conversation. And for whatever reason, just immediately thought of Wicker Park and called the park district to see how we could go about renting the park. And I don't even think they charged us a fee at the time. They just thought like, you're doing a craft fair, what? I mean, I think we paid like a $25 application fee and that was it. That's awesome. And so we didn't have a lot of overhead expenses. Not a lot of risk there.

Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's so cool. It was the very first one, sort of like an immediate success. Yeah, we had beautiful weather. I think that had a lot to do with like just people being able to come out and having a nice day and having fun at the event. So it was just a one day event. And then just kind of like slowly grew it from there. The next year, we did a two day event. And then the third year is when we started expanding into new cities.

Yeah. So you started this primarily though, because you are also making stuff yourself. But at some point this becomes actually you had to make a decision. Like, is this an outlet for my stuff or is this really, you know, a thing that I'm going to pour all of my energy into? And you also, didn't you run a store at some point also? Yeah, I had a store for five years. So what was we, tell me that story. Well, I actually wanted to open a store before all of this came about. I wanted to open a vintage clothing store. And that's what my friend and I were originally going

to do. And so, like, basically, we started the craft fair. And then try to think how many years later it was, we opened the store was just a few years later that we opened the store, but we based it more on the craft fair. And so we consigned work from artists and we sold our vintage stuff off like right when we opened and then just focused on the crafts. And we had that for five years, but our overhead expenses were so high that, you know, it never made money, just was like always losing money, but I'm still glad I did it. It was a cute little place, but it only lasted five years. And then I was like, we need to focus all of our energy on the fairs, you know,

because we could just bring it to new cities. And that's what was really like the most successful and where my passions were at were with the fairs and not necessarily in retail. Yeah. What was the moment where you realized that you had to make that shift? And like, what clicked? I think like I wanted to grow the fair, but I was spread too thin. So with the store, it just kind of started to feel like it was too much of a burden and too much to keep up with. And you have to keep it clean and nice and stocked. And our model of consignment like didn't totally work out in the end so you know it's 2020 in hindsight i probably would have done it a little bit different to make it a little bit more manageable and not be stuck with a bunch of stock that people kind of sent us to get rid of

in some cases and doesn't sell the unsellable stuff exactly put it on your shelves that's fine yeah and i never had worked retail and you know opened this retail store and just didn't really know what I was getting into, I think. And we had a good run at five years. But then I just was like, wanted to do the fairs. I wanted to work from home and have more flexibility and stuff. Yeah. Was there any angst tied up in that decision in terms of – because it was the same brand as the fairs, right? It was Renegade Handmade, so slightly different.

And did people associate them? Or did people kind of know that they were connected as the fairs, right? It was Renegade Handmade, so slightly different. And did people associate them? Or did people kind of know that they were connected or not so much, right? So I'm curious, did you have any thought going through your mind that was saying, well, but if we fold the store, it may telegraph something about the bigger brand that it's not working? Or were you just kind of like, you know what? I'm good. It's done. I need to just focus looking forward entirely.

That's how i felt it always felt more like an offshoot of the fair and i think people knew that too and so i wasn't worried about that necessarily and because we were able to say that this will give us the opportunity to grow the fair so we were explaining that the fair was actually growing and so i don't think anybody thought there was like a downturn. And we also were, we opened the store kind of like right when the recession hit and everything like that. Oh, no kidding. So yeah, I don't think people were surprised when people were closing stuff down ever,

you know, at that time. So I'm amazed actually that you kept it open for five years, given that. Yeah. I mean, the store actually did really well. It's just our overhead was so expensive. And so we had to split everything also 50-50 with the artists. And so the fair always just kind of like subsidized it. Yeah. You make the decision at some point that, okay, this is being really successful in Chicago, but this potentially could be a much bigger brand. And it sounds like that was starting to happen before you shut down the store, but that was the thing that opened up the bandwidth for you to

really just completely go all in and expand. Take me to sort of like the thought process in the moment where you're thinking to yourself, okay, we want to go from a city that we know and love. And like, we kind of own what's happening here to starting to just expand to all sorts of different cities on the ground where we don't necessarily know the culture. We don't know if it's going to work the same. Talk me through that a little bit. Yeah, I love to travel. And so I actually just was walking through Brooklyn one day and happened upon McCarran Park. And it reminded me very much of Wicker Park where we started the fair. And that's when it dawned on me, like, maybe I should look into renting this park. And maybe we should do this event here because all these makers, you

know, are all over the country. And so. And Brooklyn also, the making culture in Brooklyn is astonishing. Yeah. And Brooklyn alone is, if the stats are right, the fourth largest city in the country. Wow. Yeah. I know. Yeah. And Williamsburg was just like so hot at the time. I mean, it's even more developed now, but at the time it just seemed, I don't know, it just clicked, you know, again, it wasn't like a conscious decision and a business decision. Like we never ran numbers. I mean, it was like so very early on just kind of doing everything out of kind of like instinct or passion, you know. And so I, again, just kind of called up the parks district and asked them how we go about renting the park. Again, I don't think they charged us anything. They didn't understand, you know,

what we were doing. And that was, you know, success. And so we continued to do it in Chicago and Brooklyn. And then next, they brought to San Francisco, because it's just another city I love. Yeah. Which park did you do in San Francisco? We actually couldn't rent out parks in San Francisco. They don't really let you do that quite as much because they want to reserve them for, you know, just like communities, which makes sense. So I had trouble finding a venue there. Took me like a year or two. But then finally we ended up doing it at Fort Mason, which is a really beautiful.

That's not by the Marina or the Presidio? It is. Yeah, that's where it is. Yeah. No, that's an awesome part of the city too yeah so how many places are you at now how many cities now we're in nine cities yeah that's pretty amazing i think we're doing 25 events this year all together what's driving you right now i think just still that passion you know like that i just love it

and want to see it grow and continue to grow and continue to bring it to new cities. And we constantly get people asking us to come and do a fair in their city. And so that's like kind of how it progressed to is like, originally, I was just taking it to places that I've been to and I love and thought it would be successful. But then people were, you know, saying like, come to Los Angeles, come to Austin, come to Denver and all these things. And so it's been a little bit of just kind of like trying to fill the demand too. And just, you know, bringing the fare to people like to the makers in those cities and the people in those cities to be able to kind of be a part of this, you know? Yeah. So how do you choose where to go though? Cause I'm guessing you probably get a lot of requests from a lot of different places and you've got, you know, you got to go at a pace where you can keep it sustainable. So how do you choose like who goes next? Well, it's kind of based on size of the city. Like that's where we're most successful in urban areas. That's obviously where the most people live. So we get the most attendees at those

events. So we're in most attendees at those events. So we're in a lot of just like the major cities right now. And then we do an event in London, which I did just for the fun of it again, like my dad had his own business at one point, and he had kind of like branches offices in different cities and like traveled a lot for work. And so I was kind of like inspired by him to i think do this a little bit too and just that's why we expanded to london i mean they have a huge maker culture there too yeah and so and they latched onto the brand the same way because sometimes you never know yeah actually some cities it's taken like a few years to break

in i will say i think london was one of. But the venue is like a destination. So that's part of it. So I think it catches on more quickly when we're in a more public space. Right, where people are already just either going or passing through as part of whatever they're up to. Yeah. So we kind of have to like figure out what marketing we need to do in some of these new cities. Because like you said, I mean, we don't live there. We don't have people on the ground in those cities. Like we're all, well, half of us are based in Chicago and then half of us are kind of scattered around the country now, but we don't have people kind of like doing local recon for us. You know, we do it all in house. So it's a little bit of a challenge, but yeah. Like how much of this actually is about you loving to make really cool things? How much

of it is about you sounds like kind of falling in love with entrepreneurship to a certain extent, and also having this Mad Jones to travel? Mm hmm. I think it's mostly like, the love of entrepreneurship, and wanting to work for myself, and being excited by that. And then letting other people have the opportunity to have that because so many people want that, you know, it's like you're living the dream or whatever they say but I think that for me is just like I want to do this for a living and then it's like where can we bring it to next like where can I travel to what city can I fall in love with next and it just feels really good when people tell you like what you're doing is helping them do what they love. So that's a big part of it too, you know? So it's a lot of hard work, you know, owning your own business and

everything. And there's so many details in event planning. Like, I mean, sometimes we're all just like running around like chickens with our heads cut up. I mean, it's just so much work, but yeah, I think we just do it because we want to continue bringing it to new cities. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing also because we run our own events as well. We actually run that pretty much every summer. At the end of the summer, we take over a kid's sleepaway camp. Oh, cool.

And so we have this adult summer camp where, you know, like this year, probably between four and 500 people will come and live there too for almost four days. It's amazing to see what happens when you get a community together on the ground in person, which is profoundly different than online. Yeah. And at the same time, it's astonishingly complex. Yeah. You know, just like maneuvering that.

I'm curious whether this has been like the consistent thing with you, but no matter how much you plan, no matter how much you think you've got everything, stuff always goes wrong. Like you can absolutely count on it. You know, you're going to have to spend the entire time like flying around, just sort of like fixing stuff as it goes bad. Yeah. We put out a lot of fires.

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. There's just, I mean, we go into it now just kind of like at peace with the fact that a whole bunch of stuff is going to break. Do people camp out? They sleep in the kids' bunks.

Oh, wow. So they have room for that many people there? Oh, yeah. Actually, the facility that we use, I think, has room for 600 or 700 people. But we don't go that big because that would require putting too many people. That's okay for kids, but not so much for grownups. But still, it's a blast. I mean, it's like 130 acres and all the craziness of camp as kids, but at the same time, really cool, like classes on making and business and all this

other stuff. So, but it is, it's amazing, but it's also, it's complicated, you know, and we have a whole crew that helps us pull it off. So in the U S do you have people on the ground in the different cities? And then we have some kind of production teams that we hire to help with certain things on site. And we have to work with maybe sometimes the venues teams, you know, but that's just more of like the actual run of event. We have some people that are based like in Los Angeles, for example, but we didn't hire them because they're, you know, based in Los Angeles or anything like that. So we kind of pretty much just do everything online for the most part and handle like most things in-house like production and vendor relations and you know design and you know

marketing and all that good stuff yeah i'm curious because you went to school for psychology what was the other thing religious studies psychology and religious studies and you're now ending up running this global renegade craft fair yeah Yeah, totally different. Profoundly different. But at the same time, you mentioned your dad was entrepreneur and has his own business. Do you ever think about whether being exposed to that kindled this in you in any way or either like made you intrigued by it or made you not intrigued by it or resistant? Definitely. I mean, he was, you know, in a way, like a mentor of mine, I was just so impressed by him. I mean, we don't work in the same fields at all. I mean, he was a lawyer, but he was just like very successful and people really looked up to him. He was just like a natural born leader and a mentor to many people. And I was just always so proud of him, like at his successes

and his being able to like, you know, start his own law firm and that they had offices in, you know, five cities or something like that, including London. And yeah, I think I wanted to like make him proud and I wanted to do something just as special with my life and be just as successful. And so I felt like I really wanted to do something with my life and kind of take after him a little bit in that way. So I think that definitely had an impact on me. That's pretty cool. Is he still around? No, he passed away. Was he here to see what you were doing? Yeah. He got to see, you know, some of the first events and was around when we started kind of like branching out into

the first couple other cities and stuff. And he was very proud. Yeah. Yeah. I would have to imagine. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of like sort of following in footsteps, but owning it in your own way, your own voice. Yeah.

Very cool. I wish he was still around so I could ask him more questions about business and things like that. Yeah. Which actually brings up another interesting question, which is sort of, you know, as you're figuring this all out, as you go, do you have mentors? Do you have people who sort of turn around and who you can sort of bounce things off of to help you? I bounce a lot off my husband. He's kind of like an advisor of mine in the company because he's been there kind of the whole time. And he just has a really good perspective on things and can help me kind of make decisions and decide like which cities to maybe expand into. And he gives me

just, I think a lot of courage. Like I feel like I have still just like this partner in crime that I just feel very supported by him, but I don't have any kind of like business mentors or anything like that. Yeah. It's sometimes a challenge. I wish I did, but I'm not exactly sure where to find those people that are in this industry or get what I'm doing. It's very different than what traditional entrepreneurs are up to, which is all about the bottom line and money. It's like way more kind of like corporate than our culture is and so it's hard to find someone that's like quite like in the right field or something i guess yeah i mean it's interesting too because you said a couple of times that you you've gone into things

not really looking at the bottom line not doing spreadsheets around it almost like going on gut it sounds like you know it's very much sort of an intuitive and heart centered approach to business. Yeah. We are very organized. I will say though, I mean, we definitely have like spreadsheets and stuff like, and lots of systems in place and things like that. But I think, yeah, as far as like the decision making and how to grow and kind of who to hire and those types of things, it's all very much based more on kind of like the decision making and how to grow and kind of who to hire and those types of things, it's all very much based more on kind of like our company culture and just like our instinct and more about the people than necessarily their experience, depending on kind of like

what role they're going to fill. But most of the people in our company kind of like don't have a background necessarily in the position they're filling. It's just, you know, they're very creative and just fall in line with what we want and, you know, just like for who they are. Yeah. Was it intentional trying to build a culture like that around sort of a shared, I don't know, ethos or it just kind of happened? It just kind of happened. One of our first employees was just like a friend of ours and then one of our next employees was kind of like the girlfriend of a friend of ours and that's how it kind of started but then when we started the formal hiring process I think people like are just the right people are

attracted to our business and so we're lucky in that way that it's not that we're trying to recruit people that kind of like you know don't know what we're doing or don't already just love what we're lucky in that way that it's not that we're trying to recruit people that kind of like, you know, don't know what we're doing or don't already just love what we're doing. So it's kind of just come together naturally. But when you think about where you're expanding, like, where are you going with this? I think it's one of the big questions in my head. Yeah. Right now, I think we need to slow down a little bit. We're like 13 people right now.

I think we're in how many cities? Well, we're in nine cities. We're like 13 people right now. I think we- Wait a minute. You're in how many cities? Well, we're in nine cities. And you're 13 people. Yeah. That's a lot of work. Yeah, that's a lot of work.

Yeah, exactly. Like maybe have kind of scaled it up a little bit too quick in the last year just because you feel understaffed and then you hire people to help out. But then the training and all that takes such a long time that when you're kind of doing that like with four people at once it's like okay well maybe we can't like expand quite yet let's just like settle let this settle for a year and then see where we want to go but i would love to be in at least probably four or five more cities i can think of yeah are you looking more international?

I did do some research into Berlin like a few years ago and have a venue there, but the logistics around it are kind of daunting. You know, I mean, I don't know German. We'd have to find probably a local. You really, yeah. You need somebody on the ground for real. If you're in that, yeah. And Tokyo, that would be another really cool place.

Is there a big sort of craft maker culture in Tokyo? Yeah. I haven't done like a ton of research into it, but definitely like they love this kind of work and just seem really enthusiastic. And people have emailed us saying like, you should come here and, you know, bring the craft here to Tokyo. And so I think it would do well, but again, it's like, I'm not quite sure how to make that happen that's a huge move maybe five years down the road or something we can figure it out it makes sense actually because there's i mean there is a you know like obviously generations old sort of like devotion to actually really beautiful handmade things mastery yeah so it would be so

interesting to see what renegade craft would look like there i know i got to so it would be so interesting to see what renegade craft would look like there i know i got to imagine it would be so different than sort of like what the average thing would look like in the u.s oh for sure i'm sure yeah i mean each city has you know some of the same stuff but then they each have their local flavor too and like little stylistic things that are only unique to that city. So you mentioned your husband is sort of an advisor. How long have you guys married? About eight years.

Does he do something similar or no? He works for the company now. He kind of handles our partnerships and sponsorships. So you're his boss. Yeah, kind of. But he was a printmaker and is a printmaker and musician. So he's more of an artist by trade and how'd you guys meet we actually met in chicago he was working in a restaurant i walked into one day and i just kind of like fell in love with him at first sight and yeah just kind of kept going back to the restaurant and trying to see him and yeah you're. And yeah, I don't care what kind of food it is.

Yeah. So I pretty much inserted myself into his life, but it worked out. Yeah. Yeah. And he was a printmaker. Yes. And a musician. Yeah.

He was playing in bands. I actually hired him to do our first craft fair poster. Oh, very cool. Yeah. Like letterpress type of stuff or other things? Silkscreen. Oh, wow. That's really neat. It's funny. I've actually gotten fascinated with letterpress oh yeah it's beautiful oh yeah

we took there's a couple places in brooklyn actually where you can take classes and then red press time oh that's cool so i've done a couple workshops with my daughter actually but like screen printed would be that's gotta be really fascinating. Is there, is that still done sort of like as an artisan sort of approach to sort of poster design and stuff like that a lot or? Definitely. I mean, I think before like they call them gig posters, you know, like people making posters for rock shows and things like that. There's like a whole community around that and it was flourishing, you know, like 10 years ago, and it's still going on. And he doesn't quite have the time to, you know, make it part of his like, job or anything like that.

He still does the craft fair posters, but then he just kind of does work for himself and plays music still, but he isn't doing like anything official with it right now. But he's in the process of moving his studio from Chicago to where we live now in Michigan. So he's hoping to kind of pick up more of that. Cool. What was it like sort of making the decision to work together? My wife and our business partners also. Oh, cool. And I'm always curious when you have other sort of like life partners also, you know, like working in business together, sort of how people experience that. Yeah, I mean, it kind of just came out of like the need of needing more help. Like we kind of got more inquiries about partnerships and sponsorships and that kind of thing. And I couldn't really

handle them anymore. And so I asked him if he could take it on because he's just really great with people and could help, you know, make the partnerships like fit with Renegade and kind of like our values and things like that. And so I was just like, can you please do this job or whatever? So that's kind of how it initially started. And it just is stuck. Yeah. So it wasn't sort of like a sit down conversation, like, let's talk about working together. It was just like, hey, can you help with this? Can you help with this? Yeah, no, we did kind of talk about that first. Like, let's talk about working together. It was just like, hey, can you help with this? Can you help with this? Yeah, no. We did kind of talk about that at first. Like, what would that be like? Would that kind of damage our relationship in any way?

Like, we need to set up boundaries around this. Right. So did you? Not like firm boundaries, but yeah, we just like never really let it get in the way of our actual relationship. It just kind of feels like this thing we're doing together, like this project we're working on, it's like, you know, I guess technically he's my employee, but I don't really treat him that way necessarily. I mean, I kind of need to like, ask him to do things or tell him when he's doing something wrong, I want it done differently. But we don't, you know, like really set hours aside and say like, okay, from 7pm on, we're not going

to talk about work, although we probably should just for our own sanity. Because that's a conversation that I've talked to a whole bunch of other people who are, you know, like they're partners in life and partners in business together in some way. Yeah. And that's one of the big things that I think a lot of people struggle with is, you know, especially when it's actually something that you're both really interested in and passionate about, like, you know, is there a moment, you know, where every day just the conversation about that, even if you're both into it, kind of has to stop and you want to zoom the lens out. And you're like, what do we like, you know, let's just talk about our life together.

Let's just like talk about something else or let's just go do something that has nothing to do with this. Yes, we always keep ourselves in check about that because we'll find ourselves talking about work still and like we work from home. And so there's not always that clear boundary about like when does work start and then like where does it end? And we're always together. I mean, we spend probably 95% of our time together. And so I think because it is our business, you know, it just all feels enmeshed with our life, you know. And so we do try to like keep ourselves in check and say, like, what are we talking about right now? It's 10 p.m.

Yeah. We don't want to talk about work anymore. What else can we talk about? What do you think about the concept of work-life balance? It's tough, you know. It's definitely important, you know, like you can feel the burn if you just like work too much and you don't have other interests or hobbies or like sports you play or whatever. So I feel like I've gotten pretty good at it, but I think it's funny how people like creep into it and then it becomes

this thing that you have to like consciously make an effort to do, you know, that you would think you would just naturally want to do more leisurely activities, but you find yourself kind of like obsessing about just like work, you know? But I think that's actually really common with mission driven entrepreneurs who really are like, there's a love for what they're doing that goes beyond, okay, I need to create a source of money. That's true. Because so many people I know would be doing this even if it was like their hobby on the side. Yeah. So it's sort of like if you just happen to be fortunate enough to actually have built it into something substantial enough where it's your main thing, then it gets really

murky about like, where's the line and whether there even should be a line. A friend of mine, Mitch Jules, has this great term. He calls it work-life blend. And he's like, the work-life balance is a total myth. And especially if you're sort of a mission-driven, passionate, deeply interested entrepreneur or maker or creator, I think I tend to agree with that too. Yeah, that makes total sense to me. I think you're right when it just feels like something you're passionate about, then maybe you shouldn't just have such a hard definition of it being work or something like that. So I really like that concept.

I will find myself kind of feeling guilty about thinking about work, and I don't think that's the solution either. Probably not all that healthy either, right? Yeah, so you're trying to create this balance, and you're trying to shut your brain off thinking about work, but it's like the harder you try to shut it off, like the stronger it becomes kind of a thing. So it doesn't work. And so maybe you should just let it be and then it'll naturally kind of fall away. Yeah. So you're also, I mean, as somebody who's sort of like your business, your lifeblood is on the ground,

gathering people in person, and not just gathering people. So the community, like actual on the ground, in-person community is a huge part of what you're creating. And at the same time, around people who are working with their hands and creating physical, tangible things. I'm curious what your thoughts are on technology. Technology has been kind of just like the incubator of all of this, actually. Just because, you know, with the internet developing the way it did, it just has allowed people such as myself

or creative people to make more of a living at being, you know, at making their thing. So they can have a website and social media and get the word out about their work. So it's kind of like 50% of the equation almost, you know, like they are in the studio all day and making things with their hands. And it is so much about the creative process, but they couldn't do that really without, you know, incorporating technology and being pretty savvy with kind of like social media and those types of things. Yeah, I think it makes sense. I think you could probably trace the explosion of a lot of the craft side of things to Etsy to a certain extent, because they sort of became this online place that all of a sudden just gave people a giant,

you know, virtual marketplace to create their own shingles. And I think brought a lot of awareness and legitimacy to the pursuit of craft and making as something which is like, you know, this is viable, you know, you can actually, it's okay to put effort into this. Because no matter where you live, we're going to give you a way to potentially make a living. But in so in a weird way, it's interesting, because it's, I wonder if it's like, from your perspective, that's something which has really helped you. But at the same time, it's also you could kind of consider a competitor at the same time. I don't think we could maybe have built our brand to this extent if there hadn't been Etsy, for example, because it was such a big platform and allowed so many more people to

try and like sell their work online. Because otherwise, I mean, creating your own website is not the easiest thing to do. Or, you know, it's not like inexpensive. And people just don't really know how to do that, you know, and it was just so much easier for people to like in an Etsy site. And so I think that was definitely like a springboard into the whole movement just becoming like as big and legitimate, as you said. serve this like really benevolent thing because you're giving people access to delight. And at the same time, you're giving people who are making things the ability to actually earn a living through what you're creating. It seems like a big part of what you're building though is community and especially between and among the vendors. Is that, I mean, at least that's what it feels like from the outside looking in. Has it been your experience that that's actually happened from

the inside looking out? Yeah. I mean, it's been so much fun actually meeting all these different people that I would have never met otherwise. You know, people from all walks of life that live in all different cities and towns and everywhere. I mean, people just, you know, because they travel to do the different fairs, not everybody, but a lot of people do travel in. And so you get to meet people from just everywhere. And they all like, you know, have this in common. So there's like this community vibe to it. And they're all

wanting to be supportive of each other. And there's just like really good energy behind it all. I mean, you have some cranky people, obviously. But you get enough people together, like in any part of life, you're gonna have some cranky people. Yeah. And I think it's just like this vibe of like, we're doing it, you know, and people feeding off of each other and like, you know, sharing tips and tricks around it and kind of like helping each other and learning as we go. And there's still just this kind of like DIY mentality to it. It's not super, you know, I mean, everybody's trying to make a living, but that's not like

all what it's about. You know, I mean, everybody's trying to make a living, but that's not like all what it's about. You know, I mean, these people aren't like millionaires or anything like that. It's definitely about we're doing something we're all passionate about. This is cool. Like we've created this thing and then we're giving people the opportunity to buy work that's unique. And, you know, you can't get a store that sells mass produced things. It's just I think people are just inspired by it. Yeah. I'm curious whether you see this in your community too, because I

kind of remember this. It's funny. I'm having a flashback from being a kid with my mom on the street at a craft fair. But we would see all the same people at the same things. And there was this really deep camaraderie and generosity, you know, in a way that you generally don't see if you round up, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 vendors, you know, in almost any other space where it's almost like, no, come buy my stuff, no, come buy my stuff. I remember as a kid among sort of like that community, there was this palpable sense of genuine friendship and generosity. Is that something that you see? Has that persisted?

I think so. I don't think it's 100% that way. You know, I think there are some people that are a little bit more competitive about it or want people at their booth, but they would never say like, come over here instead or anything like that. Don't look at that. Come here. It's better quality. Exactly. Yeah. But like people want to make money definitely. And so there is a business side to it. It's not all just like happy vibes. It's not like just super, you know, kind of hippie mentality. But yeah, I mean, everybody's like super nice and respectful to one another and willing to help someone out. Like if somebody's display falls down or something, you know, people like all kind of rally around and try to help each other. That's awesome. What's been your biggest surprise

through this whole thing? I mean, I think I'm just surprised that it ever took off in the first place. Like I didn't have any expectations for it. And so it just is crazy to me still that something I created has become so big. As far as like what surprised me outside of that, I don't know that I have anything. Well, I guess it's almost like the mere existence of this at the level that it's at is your biggest surprise. That sounds like what you're saying. Yeah. At this point, when you think about what you have's at is your biggest surprise. That sounds like what you're saying. Yeah. At this point, when you think about what you have, what's your biggest fear?

I guess my biggest fear is just like, oh, is there an end to all this? Or what would that look like? I mean, we've just continually kept to or continue to grow and grow and grow and grow. And so I just wonder, is there ever going to be a point where this kind of thing isn't, you know, trendy anymore or something like that. So that would maybe just be my biggest fear because then I'm like, what would I do or something? And like, what would all these people do in that case? But I try not to like really think about it too much. But it's an interesting question, just like sort of from a bigger business standpoint, too. Sort of like, is this a trend-based thing that you're riding?

Or is this just a sustained build that's been part of humanity for a long time? And this is just the next evolution of it? Yeah. You can't really answer that question from the inside looking out. Yeah. And as long as we just stay on top of kind of like current, you know, trends and things like that i don't think you know what we're doing will die out i think you know people over the years might have come to like associate renegade with like a certain like look or niche or something like within craft but actually when you look at us

like how we've changed like over the years like we very much just like stay on top of all that. So I think some people think like, oh, you know, at one point it was like lots of woodland animal kind of like inspired things or whatever. It's like, you don't really see that anymore.

And I'm, I'm happy that people like sometimes try to say like, oh, that's not like cool anymore or something. And it's like, well, that's not what we're doing anymore. It's like, it's fun to just stay on top of it all. No, that's very cool. Coming back to the beginning of our conversation, the thing that got you started in this originally

was that you were making your own stuff. You were a crafter, you were a maker, and you wanted a place to actually go out and do it. And it sounds like at this point, the thing that you're making, like your craft is, you know, the business of renegade craft fairs. Do you ever feel like you miss the actual just sitting down with your hands and making something from nothing that you can just sit back and look and like touch it and feel it and say, I made that. Definitely. I mean, I think if I ever could get more time that I would, you know, start making things again, it's just like my life is kind of consumed with this craft

of making these events happen. And there's a lot of creativity in that. I mean, I still, you know, jury all the applications and get to choose the artists that are going to participate. And, you know, we change kind of like our branding each year. And so I'm, you know, very involved in the art direction. And just like choosing the venues, like is very exciting for me, because I like to choose more like unique venues. It's not just we rent out convention centers in every city. It's, like, parks and warehouses and all, like, different sorts of things. So putting on the event, to me, feels very creative. But, yeah, one day when I'm not doing this maybe super 110% full time, that I will definitely get back into making things, but I don't know what I would

do. I kind of started with jewelry and then like dabbled in other things over the years. And I think I sold my, I had my own booth still at the fair, like for nine years or something like that before I was like, so you're still doing it side by side. Yeah. Huh. Yeah, that's interesting. Maybe it was last year or the year before I sat down with a guest named Sean McCabe who had like a full-time gig. And he became just obsessed with letters and lettering and started hand lettering. He would literally practice writing letters for like eight hours every day after work. And he got really good at it really fast and put it on Instagram and built this huge following and then started teaching people how to do it. And he transitioned. So now he has an entire company, which is built around creating media and training people on how to actually do these things and make a living. And he's doing very little. He kind of transitioned

out of actually doing it himself. And I asked him a similar question. He's like, you know, he had this great idea. He's like, you know, like, I believe that we all have seasons, you know, so there was sort of the season for that. And he's like, I'm still hyper creative. Like, I still feel like I'm creating that Jones to just make I'm doing is just it's the season to do it in a different way. You know, and I kind of I like that metaphor, because I think it makes you feel okay about the fact that, you know, like you're not like sitting there actually making something physical with your hands, but you're still sort of like, no, it's the season for me to create differently. Yeah, exactly. I like that. I was definitely like in the transition of deciding not to do that, though, worried about it. Just like, well, can I still do the craft fair if I'm not an actual maker, you know, myself? And I don't know why I ever thought that looking back, but, you know, it's something I struggled with a little bit, but then. I'm curious whether when you're thinking that, was any part of that thought process that

I might lose credibility in the eyes of the other crafters, makers, vendors, if I'm no longer seen as sort of like quote one of them? I don't think I thought about it in that way. I'm not sure like who I thought my judge would be, except maybe just like me, like, why can't I do all of it? You know, like I saw it as some sort of like flaw, like not being able to do it all or something like that. But once I just made that decision and then I started having more fairs, like not having my own booth, I mean, it wasn't a question at all and nobody even ever like asked or anything like that. So. Sounds like you've also made peace with the notion of not being able to do it all at once.

Yes, exactly. I think that's one of the things that entrepreneurs have to at some point come to very often on their knees as I have. Yeah. Many times it's like, you know what, you're not going to survive and do everything. Yeah. I meant it for the long haul. Yeah. And, you know, like you can, that's why I love that season idea because like you can go back to this or you can shift, you know, like you can have it all, just not at the same time. So coming full circle, the name of this is Good Life Project. So I offer

that term out to you. If I say, what does it mean to you to live a good life? What comes up? I think like just doing what you love, if you can, you know, I mean, not everybody has gotten the chance to just make a living out of something they created or that they're super passionate about. But you can do that in other ways, too. So, I mean, I think everybody has a little bit of a passion in some way, and they can feel good about whatever that might be for them, whether it's their children or their yoga practice or, you know, it's just trying to live more in like a positive space rather than just thinking of everything as like a grind, you know, it's just trying to live more in like a positive space rather than just thinking of everything as like a grind, you know, just try to like find something you love and focus your attention and energy on that as much as you can.

Thank you. Thanks. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there.

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