Good Life Project - How to Break the Expectation Trap | Connie Lim aka MILCK

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Have you ever asked yourself: “Who am I? What do I stand for?” Many of us do ask these questions and when we do, it can be a catalyst that sets us on an alternative path - even though we know it might disappoint those around us. Yet, all too often, even when our inner knowing is forcing us to pay attention, life can pull us in the direction of expectations versus desire. We hesitate to follow our curiosity for fear we might let down our family and loved ones. As a result, we stay on course towards what “we’re supposed to do”. But it doesn’t always have to be this way. Sometimes choosing the new path is just what we need to honor our voice, culture and family. This is why I’m excited to share this conversation with Connie Lim, whose artist name is MILCK for this Best Of Conversation.MILCK rose to widespread attention after a video of an a capella performance of her song "Quiet" on the street at the 2017 Women's March exploded into the public’s consciousness going viral and becoming embraced as an anthem for the movement. That moment and the impact and reach of the song led to a major record deal and collaborations as a songwriter that launched the career she’s been working to build for years. But that career almost never happened. MILCK grew up in an enclave of LA, the child of immigrants from China, and was drawn to music from her earliest days. She wrote her first song at 7 years old and studied classical piano and opera. Yet the pressure of intense perfectionism and the expectation she’d eventually leave music behind to follow the family tradition into medicine led her into years of profound emotional struggle. Eventually, she hit a point in college where she decided it was time to choose herself over the expectations of others, as well as the burden of perfectionism that had caused so many years of suffering and harm. MILCK left college and went all-in on music, performing as an independent artist for years, slowly building her name, before that fateful day in 2017 that changed everything. She’s now deep into writing, producing and performing her own work, while also writing with and for other artists and focusing on not just sharing her own creative voice, but also gathering community and shining the light on truth and inequity along the way.You can find MILCK at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Justin Tranter about their journey through challenging times as a kid growing up and then stepping into the world of music - first as a musician, and then as a powerhouse songwriter and collaborator.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED.Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I didn't quite realize that music was my path. I didn't let myself realize my inner knowing new. I knew since I was really young, but I thought that life was basically composed of moments where you ignore that little voice that tells you to do something dangerous and just do the thing that is safer. And so I just couldn't handle it anymore. So have you ever asked yourself, who am I and what do I stand for? Many of us do ask these questions. And when we do, it can be a catalyst that sets us on a path, even though we know it might disappoint those around us.

Yet all too often, even when that inner knowing is forcing us to pay attention to the signals, life can pull us in the direction of expectations versus innate expression and desire. And we hesitate to follow our curiosity, our drive, our inner knowing of who we are and what really matters to us out of a fear that we might let down others, family, loved ones, people who have certain expectations about who we, quote, should be or how we, quote, should live our lives and what we should center. And as a result, we stay on course towards what we're supposed to do. But it doesn't always have to be this way. Sometimes choosing a new path is just what we need to honor our voice, culture, and family.

And this is why I'm so excited to share this conversation with Connie Lim, whose artist name is Milk, in this best of conversation. So Milk rose to widespread attention after a video of an acapella performance of her song Quiet on the street at the 2017 Women's March exploded into the public's consciousness, going viral and becoming embraced as an anthem for the movement. And that moment and the impact and reach of the song led to a major record deal and collaborations as a songwriter that launched the career she'd been working to build for years. But that career almost never happened. Milk grew up in an enclave of LA, the child of immigrants from China, and was drawn to music from her earliest age. She wrote her first song at seven years old and studied classical piano and opera. Yet the pressure of intense perfectionism and the expectation that she'd eventually leave music behind to follow the family tradition into medicine, it led her into years of profound

emotional struggle. And eventually she hit a point in college where she decided it was time to choose herself over the expectations of others, as well as the burden of perfectionism that had caused so many years of suffering and harm. And they left college and went all in on music, performing as an independent artist for years, slowly building her name painstakingly before that fateful day in 2017 that changed everything. She's now deep into writing, producing, and performing her own work, while also writing with and for other artists and focusing on not just sharing her own creative

voice, but also gathering community and shining the light on truth and inequity along the way. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need them.

Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. I grew up with privilege, so I didn't, I didn't quite understand the depth of how lucky I was to be surrounded by nature. And, you know, now, you know, I'm in touch with a community in Memphis where some kids have never seen like a hill, like a, like an incline, a mountain. And so my partner founded this gym called Memphis rocks and they're one of the beneficiaries of the somebody's beloved fund, which we can talk about. But anyways, just meeting other people who have not had the experience and access to nature and then like going to nature with them and seeing the impact

it has on just the whole spirit of a human being is really profound. So yeah, I do think about that a lot. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, especially, you know, when I think about any major city, but also in LA in particular, you've got Skid Row, which has been there for decades. And as much as people have tried to figure out how do we make this better? It's always there. And there's like this weird tap dance that tends to happen in LA where sort of like you acknowledge it and you, you try and figure things out and a lot of people try and

support it. And yet to a certain extent, I think a lot of people sort of turn a blind eye because they're just don't know how to do something about it to help it also. And yet it's so vast. Um, for those who don't know, Skid Row in LA is basically almost like a small town. Yeah. And it's grown during COVID. Yeah. I can relate to the feeling of feeling like a problem is so big and not knowing how to engage and be a part of a solution and then just not doing anything. And I've done that in my life. I've driven by and, and what I'm,

I was just listening to a podcast today about how the change comes from within from our individual lives. This really great poet writer, John White, he was like to reimagine society. We have to reimagine ourselves. And one of my friends is actually working on a beautiful project where she is telling the stories of people on Skid Row.

And I hope that creates an opening for more understanding and just like more engagement, you know, because I think paying attention is the first and essential step towards helping is just paying attention. And like you said, it's like sometimes we turn the blind eye. Once we do that, it's like, no, we have to pay attention. Yeah, no, I so agree with that. I think awareness is like the first part. Years ago, I knew a guy who at one point in his life was living with homelessness. And then eventually, as he started to sort of like, as things shifted in his life, he started to just go out on the

street and with a little handheld video camera to just talk to all these people who used to be part of his community. And he said, and he called the project Invisible People, because he said, one of the biggest things when he was on the street was that you were invisible to people as they walked by, you know, but intentionally invisible. Because, you know, if they acknowledged your humanity and then didn't do anything about it, it creates this deep sort of ethical pain. So a lot of people just pretend they don't exist. That's a really powerful way of describing what happens when we walk on the street and pass tragedy and not do anything about it. And sometimes it's not tragedy. I don't want to judge every story is that I'm trying to reassess how I value my time so that maybe I can not get stuck in the flow of go, go, go. And of course, COVID has helped

with that, helped many of us surrender. However, as people are wanting to start being more productive or finding a new type of rhythm in this unknown I think acknowledging the fact that our time is commodified by this capitalist structure helps me to be like okay but do I want to participate that and sometimes I find myself climbing the capitalist ladder like wanting to be ambitious in certain ways. And so now I'm starting, I'm taking some time right now to really address because I have done that. I have walked by certain moments and certain people and, and in my mind thought, I just walked by an opportunity to learn more about humanity because I feel like I have to go get my own life done, like taken care of and stuff. But like, how can I build a life where I have to go get my own life done, like taken care of and stuff,

but like, how can I build a life where I have a little more luxury to get lost in pockets of time with people unexpectedly? That's, I think that's the next goal for me. And I'm starting to like restructure my whole career too around it. I've actually really, you know, amicably and respectfully, I'm in the process of leaving my, my major record label deal because the weight of trying to live up to a certain type of number or a certain type of streaming thing is starting to change me in a way that I don't think I'm, it's making me a better person. I think there's some artists who can handle it really well.

And I think I had just have to walk a different path. Yeah. I mean, but how, how powerful it is to start to awaken to that within yourself, you know, and also, you know, and, and so often, you know, like I think that comes in our lives when on some level we're brought to our knees, you know, it's like,'s like I keep trying to figure out, is there a way we can get to this place without having to go through that? And I haven't really figured that out yet.

Yeah. I was just writing. I do like a newsletter to my followers and my supporters. And I just said, I think I'm realizing that suffering and growth are siblings and they walk hand in hand. So I've really felt some hard times and I've had some really low moments this year. And those have been the best teachers. And I actually feel more free because I've had to question everything.

Yeah. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. Like on the one hand, you wish it weren't so. But on the other hand, thousands of people have tried to figure out a different path. And I think every once in a while you stumble upon something where through these sort of like, you know, windows of stepping into the abyss before that, would you have been at the place where something just kind of seemed to come with ease, you know, even to start with? It's really well said. I wonder if there are moments where we can kind of dodge that, the abyss, but I haven't, I haven't found that yet.

Yeah. You know, you want some struggles, okay, but those moments of grace and ease are pretty sweet also. Yeah, they really are. Yeah, but it's interesting that you're sort of re-examining the relationship with sort of like the mainstream industry and the way that labels approach their relationship with artists and also set expectations for artists where

there's a certain set of expectations that the business needs. And then sometimes, like you said, that aligns really well with certain artists. But then others, it becomes this stifling thing that doesn't just affect you personally, but it also affects your creative expression. Yeah, I would agree with that. I actually said that to the CEO of the label. I was really frank. I said, and they're so kind. They're such good people.

It's like so tempting to want to talk you know, talk about corporations being these like, you know, bad organizations, but oh man, they're just good people. And I said, the pressure I am putting on upon myself to keep up with the Joneses, with my peers at this label is clouding my creative voice. And I can't hear myself as well. And I've tried to find ways and maybe I'll grow and be able to figure that out later to balance expectations and my creative voice. But I was like, I'm not serving this relationship in a way that inspires me or makes me feel like this is mutually symbiotic. So, yeah, it's been and to have a conversation like that in the context. And I'm kind of searching elsewhere and doing a project like building a fund

around racial justice and trying to understand my place as an Asian woman in a country that has a lot of tensions between white and black populations and native populations and stuff. Just understanding what's my role in this and how can I be a part of this conversation, even though there's a lot I don't know. And yeah, that has sparked a deeper hunger for me to understand who I am. What is my heritage?

Like, what does it mean to be a Chinese American? And that journey is leading me elsewhere. So. Yeah. I mean, what an, just what an interesting moment you're in. I mean, it sounds like part of what's going on is not just wanting to pull back from the label or the, you know, the capital I industry, but also just your own personal yearning for the space to, for your own internal exploration about like identity and, and place in society and the world and in your own life. Yeah. Identity feels like, I feel like my work to serve others will be more well informed if I am just really grounded in knowing who I am, where I come from and what I stand for. And there's a tension. I rebelled against my traditional Chinese parents ways of life. And some of it was so that I could find my voice. And some of it was because I was a teenager and

trying to figure out what pieces of this culture are mine. And what does it mean to be Asian American or Asian enough? Is it okay that I don't know my language fully well, my mother tongue? Is it okay that there are parts that I don't agree with? Just trying to figure out what that balance is. And it's coming out in song form. And I'm really excited to do a longer collection of songs to explore that question. Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. Your parents are first generation, right? They were Hong Kong born and then came over here. So it really is, for you, it's sort of like you're the first US born generation in your family, which creates very often just a lot of tension because your parents are navigating culture know, navigating culture

that they weren't born into. And then you're navigating both this culture that you were born into and their culture and their traditions and what they hope, you know, you'll become and what gets passed on and the ethos that they grew up within the value system. So it's sort of like, you've got a foot in two worlds, but simultaneously a foot in no world. Exactly. Well said. And it's my friends and I who have the same experience. We talk about creating that third culture, absorbing US culture, absorbing our parents' culture and like coming in and making a mix. That's why Milk, my artist name is my last name backwards in my first two initials to kind of honor what I was given, but also to mix it my personal experience, there is a sense of hierarchy with gender and I'm just very, I'm just so, I just know the value and power of the feminine perspective.

And so from the beginning, I've been, I just haven't really kept quiet about those things which have disrupted the norm of families, you know, culture. And so it's been interesting walking that line of like keeping my own voice and honoring, honoring my family and also disappointing them too. I've had to learn how to disappoint people and remain true to myself. And that's within itself. I think that's universal. Yeah. Right. I mean, isn't that the journey from childhood to adulthood, right? You know, it's sort of like when you, when you get comfortable with the fact that you will, and you have to, to a certain extent, disappoint, you know, your, your parents in order to, you know, like to honor who you are and maybe get really lucky. And that actually doesn't disappoint them, but in some way, shape or form,

like I met very few people that didn't like in some way, you know, feel like they were letting them down or just not the person that they expected or thought that, that, you know, their, their folks would be. And if you're close to your folks, even if there's tension or angst, you know, like, I think that still matters for a lot of us. Yeah. And I think I've seen like on your podcast, you've interviewed Glennon Doyle and, and she speaks about it really well and untamed. Yeah. I mean, like I can't remember the line, but she was like, like you become a mother or whatever it was when you actually decide, you actually decide it's okay to disappoint your mother or something. It was something that I don't – I'm butchering the language, but yeah, I read that and I was like, ooh, yeah, that.

Yes, that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so you're – tell me if I have this right. Your dad is a physician yes and it sounds like you're you're tracking in that same place so when you end up music was a part of your early life and we'll circle back to that but it sounds like you know there was always this expectation that in some way shape or form or maybe i'm reading into that that you would follow in his footsteps and you would you know sort of like land in the world of medicine too.

So when you first hit Berkeley, I guess you started out and you were pre-med. Yes, yes. It was a deep hope for my father for me to walk in his footsteps. And man, it used to torture me. And now I empathize with it so much because he knew that that's what kept him safe in a culture, in a new world that he moved himself to in the United States. He was like, okay, I'm going to hold onto my skills. That's why he told me when I was younger, build a skill and serve society. And that's, that's the point of life and never blame others for your, for anything that take

responsibility for everything. Those are the kernels of knowledge that he planted within me that have shaped me deeply. And I think his desire for me to be a physician was also my sister, since she was age six, she's older than me. She's four years older than me. And since she was really young, she knew she wanted to be a physician. And so she got into med school at age 16. And so like guaranteed admission. Wait, med school at age 16? Yeah. USC saw her talent and said, you can come to college for free and you have a guaranteed admission into a medical school. Okay. So lay it on top of your dad's hope. And you have your older sister who didn't just go to med school, but at 16, she's getting into med school. Oh my God.

I know. I know. Um, and man, it's like we have, my sister and I have a good relationship and I've always, I've always joked with her. I was like, really, really? Do you got to just lay that on my, on my expectation bucket? But yeah, it's, it's funny now when I was going to Berkeley and I was pre-med the first year and I just, I just couldn't, I was finding myself like feeling like I was going crazy. I was like, wait, I'm thinking about molecules and I'm thinking about protons and electrons. And that's, it's really interesting, but I don't know. I somehow it feels so, so, so micro that my heart desires to think about feelings and emotions and how do I explain those things? Those are quite a different landscape. So I didn't quite realize that music was my path. I didn't let myself realize. My

inner knowing knew. I knew since I was really young, but I thought that life was basically composed of moments where you ignore that little voice that tells you to do something dangerous and just do the thing that is safer because it will make your loved ones feel safer too. And so I, then I just couldn't handle it anymore. Anias Nin talks about like when it's just too painful to stay as the bud and you just have to bloom. And that's what I felt in my third year of college. I left my investment banking internship, which I don't know what it was. I remember interning 12 hours a day, looking at an Excel sheet, and I still to this day cannot remember what I was doing. But I decided to leave that internship. I called my parents and said,

you know, I'm just going to stay in Berkeley and write music and leave my internship. And they were shocked, you know. So for anyone who's out there, like thinking about doing something, like I feel you, I feel that, that pressure and that anticipation're going to pick up the phone and talk to your parents and say, this is what I'm about to do. It must have been brutal. I have this stomach, like I have acid reflux and I think I've been going to doctors about it. And most of it they say is mental, like it's an emotional thing. So I felt that I actually had so much stress during that time that my acid levels built to the point where like I couldn't speak because the acid had burned my throat so badly. So I actually walked around for a few weeks writing on a whiteboard, communicating to my classmates and stuff, but I didn't know that's what was happening. And I was self-medicating

too. I was drinking and I'm smoking. And cause I just felt like I was constantly the quote unquote problem, like not fitting into the safe lines. So yeah, it was a lot. Yeah. I mean, were your parents aware of what was going on with you sort of earlier? Cause I know I I've heard you describe sort of like your earlier years as like on the outside, you were kind of like playing the role of the perfect kid and like popular and doing work and doing well in school. But inside there was a certain emptiness building, which you're sort of describing the tipping point. Before you made that call,

did they have any sense for what was going on or was this sort of like completely out of the blue for them? I was curious about those. My father, when I was, he said to me when I was maybe 10 or 11, I don't think he'll remember this, but I remembered it. He looked at me and he said, when some people are too intelligent, they start to break societal norms because they see things differently from other people. And he warned me against that. So I think he knows and he has that spirit within him. However, he didn't have the luxury to do that, to really break norms because he was so intent on surviving in the United States. Like, man, he was a custodian. He was a burger flipper and he worked his way through medical school. And

he's quite a marvel within himself. And to work that hard and intensely and has created this like really cautious energy. And I think my mother also knew that I had a fieriness to me that they were just a little concerned. Cause you know, I think I also have to take back into context, like, and I, you know, I'm still researching this and trying to understand, but you know, during the cultural revolution in China, artists were persecuted, books were burned. And so I think- It was dangerous to be that person. It was dangerous. And I didn't really understand that till this year.

I was like, oh, right. There was a historical moment that informed this fear that I understand. So now it's maybe they've done the work so I can heal and return back to some of that artistry and intellect that maybe for a few generations before me, that wasn't really a luxury they could even visit. So I'm grateful. Yeah. Because it's interesting because I was wondering, you mentioned earlier, in the beginning, you judged a certain lens from your dad, but at a certain point, it switched to empathy. And it sounds like your deeper dive into understanding their context was maybe really helpful in that shift.

Yeah. And through my siblings, too. I was talking to this Asian-American director. She does a lot of stuff on Broadway. And she says, the focus has been so much on our parents. But what about us? Like, what about our siblings? And, you know, watching my brother and kind of done a fusion. I've, I've kind of, I've completely challenged most of them. Um, and so, you know, and watching my brother as a Asian male, which is a whole different experience than an Asian female. John Cho talks about it really well in this podcast with LA times. He talks about how his father, John Cho's father moved here as a grown man. So he got to live in

Asia in his formative years and be part of the majority and not ever feel lesser than, but John grew up as a child here learning some certain ideas. So I see that within my brother and my cousins and stuff. And so that creates more empathy too, because we're all kind of like, I mean, we're all figuring it out. And from just my specific family perspective, my siblings have really helped me understand who I am too. And we work really hard to empathize and be there for each other as we balance how to be loyal to our family, but loyal to ourselves. Yeah, no, I love that. It's really similar to Ram Dass' sentiment. We're all just walking each other home. Ram Dass. Oh, blessed soul. Yeah, yeah.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary so when you make this call you're you're three years into berkeley and you're like you know what i'm gonna make a hard left turn here and music was a part of your life as you shared from the earliest days legend having it that you composed your first song healthy people at the age of ripe old age of seven yeah um and always being a part of you and so was the immediate first step to just say like there's this thing inside of me you know like there's the i i need to go into music which had always been a part of you but you need to make it front and center as

your full-time thing and and that was the immediate step out. It was the immediate goal, but not the immediate step because I had to figure out how to make a living in this world. And so I actually leveraged my degree to get a tutoring job at an agency. And tutoring is great because you just drive to the client's houses. You work with the students. And I loved, I love teenagers. I think it's such a rich age and middle schoolers. And so I would teach like English, essay writing, math, and even got into, did I get into some Spanish? I got into some Spanish for a little bit, but I was like, I can only teach Spanish one. Um, and so, um, yeah, I use that as a way, but always in the back of my head, I was like, this, this is going to be the thing that helps me get to a place where

I'm doing music full time. And then I, so constantly every day when I went to work, I was like, I'm grateful for this gig to tutor. And it's going to be in the rear view mirror mirror to come. I don't know when, but it will. And so then I decided to do voice lessons and voiceless. I started like, just building more of my time with voice lessons, songwriting lessons, because it felt closer to the craft. And then eventually I started playing in hotel lobbies, singing covers, which really helps build thick skin because people are, you know, rolling around their suitcases, just trying to like get to bed so that they could go to the next conference or meeting, whatever.

So if I sing a song that makes them like stay and get another drink or come by and chat, like then I kind of, I started learning what makes people feel moved or where I started learning where my voice that most pleased others in those contexts. And it helped me also gain respect for my career because I lugged my keyboard everywhere, my stands, and I would sometimes create an elaborate setup for, you know, a hotel lobby set. But every time I unpacked my gear and, you know, it, it can get tedious and it's heavy, the gear, but I thought this is my prayer of gratitude for being able to do this. And one day maybe someone will help me, you know, uh, pack up the gear and set stuff up and maybe not, but for now, this is all of this is to lead up to that magical moment where I can sing, you know?

It's like that was your offering to the muse. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And like this sense of respect, like, okay, I really respect this craft and I want to give that. And, you know, it was just like recently Instagram messaging with a fan from Iran and she was saying that women are not allowed to sing

in public. And wow, what a thing to understand as I get to sing and speak my mind all over the place in the United States. I know we have our problems, but there's that freedom to express ourselves that feels really valuable. and I don't take it for granted. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not only is it sort of a living laboratory for you as you're learning. Okay. So where's the sweet spot between what I need to get out and what people want to hear? You know, it's also this gratitude, like a daily gratitude practice to a certain extent. Yes. Yeah. And the, the balance that you said between what places others or what feels true to me, that intersection, I think creates some of the music that has

resonated. Like my music has resonated widely is that perfect intersection where it's like completely my truth, but it also, there's enough space for others to find themselves in it. And that's really fun to write towards. Yeah. I mean, it, it, I, I love that concept. I remember a couple of years ago we had Andy Grammer in the studio and, and he described a really similar thing. He's like, you know, people thought, you know, when he pops on to the scene with like a huge hit was like, Oh, like out of nowhere. But he's like, no, I was actually playing on the third street promenade in Santa Monica every day for hours for years. And, and he's like, but it wasn't a burden.

He's like, it was this amazing laboratory because I would just keep changing things out and I could see how people responded. And it taught him to really navigate that sweet spot of like what felt awesome to him, but also what were people really responding to. And he's like shares on social media, I'm friends with his wife, Asia. And I just think they're a really beautiful pair of people. Like, I just think they put really great energy into the world. And I love that you said that he viewed it like a laboratory. Because I think that is one of the things I've noticed with some of the great people I've worked with is that most of their focus is on how this is like an experiment or a learning opportunity, rather than thinking about the end goal or how it will be perceived.

Most of the greats are just curious. Like the songwriters I've been able to work with and producers, they're just curious and want to keep learning. And that's something that has helped me stay resilient through this unpredictable journey called life and the music business. Yeah. Which occasionally overlap. So you're playing around and sort of like racking up years, really figuring all this stuff out. Also, more recently, you have a song called Black Sheep, which I thought was really interesting. I was wondering if that song was really a reflection on sort of like that season of your life and how you perceived maybe there were certain expectations about you

and then the choices you were making about the way that you were living your life. You're so perceptive. Black Sheep is definitely a reflection of that time and sometimes even now, much less so because I feel like I've taken and maybe growing up, that's the beauty of growing up is increased sense of certainty within one's choices. But yeah, as a kid, I felt like, why do I constantly have to disappoint or just push against what they want? Like it's almost as if I'm doing it on purpose, but I really, I look back now, I wasn't, I was just sincerely doing my best, but there are times where I was like, am I just like attracting trouble

because for the sake of it, am I just really that rebellious of a person? And so the chorus of Black Sheep was something that I wasn't able to write until I was able to build my own home and find acceptance and love within myself. And I also was in a relationship where my partner really accepted me for who I was. And I felt, oh, wow, I can build a home where I can feel like good in it, you know, and feel right. And yeah, that song actually is like not the most well-known song of mine. However, when I get messages from people on Instagram or, you know, emails like that song comes up a lot.

So I think it kind of hits people like the people who need to hear it, connect with it. And then they like kind of stay on board and have supported a lot of my other stuff. So it's a special one. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me because it's really, I mean, like so much of what you write is it feels like you are, I never like to say giving voice to, because nobody gives voice to another person, but you're giving language to another person's feelings in a way where they're like, oh, that, you know, like, I don't know how to describe this, or I don't know how to tell somebody this is what's going on inside of me, but there's this song and there's both the melodies and the music and then the

lyrics. This explains what's happening. Like not just what I'm thinking, but what I'm feeling. And I feel like a lot of what you write does that. That means a lot. Thank you. Yeah. I think that's the goal of many writers, like songwriters, like as we're growing up and listening to songs and we ourselves didn't know how to express things. And all of a sudden the song comes along and is able to express all the things and in a way that's so powerful. And then I, I toured with this singer songwriter. She's incredible. Her name's Jen Bostic and Jen Bostic is a Nashville based artist. And I remember touring with her in our sedan. We drove like from Nashville to New York and just played coffee shops, restaurants, like

whatever we could get our hands on. And her songs taught me a lot. She's based in country music. There's a lot of like country tone to her writing. And what I realized with her is that her songs felt like greeting cards to me because they felt like they had such a point and intention that I could envision people sending her songs to their friends or loved ones to express something or to gift something. And I told her that I was like, your songs are like greeting cards. And I really liked that idea because I want, I think with music, there's a value in creating something where then the person listening desires to gift it to someone else. Then it creates that like relationship.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. I think it's an amazing gift when you do that. And also when you're sort of like you have, when the craft meets the the willingness and the empathy to understand like what needs to get out which kind of brings us to uh you know 2015 for you so you're sort of out you're writing you're performing you're playing you're building you're doing all the stuff that and you know and an artist does to work to emerge into the scene and support yourself. You penned this song in 2015, Quiet, along with Adrienne Gonzalez, aka AG. Does anyone

actually call her Adrienne? She actually, she loves it when I call her Adrienne. She's like, you're my sister. You call me Adrienne. Don't call me AG. She has a rule. You're one of three people who sister. You call me Adrian. Don't call me AG. She has like a rule. So, but yeah. You're one of three people who gets you like, call me that. Yeah. I actually wonder what she prefers with other people, but she wants me to call her Adrian, which I love. Yeah.

That's, that's nice. So you write, you write this song and it's, you know, I know you've described it as, well, this was you really processing and giving voice to abuse and sexual assault when you were younger and finally saying, okay, this needs to get out. Yeah. The song came from my subconscious doing its work in my dreams. And because I was healing a lot of my broken narratives about myself, my broken narratives were I'm inherently bad, which helped me attract bad energy, which is what got me in trouble. Like there's something about me that's not worthy of good things because I'll mess it up. Like, and a lot of people feel this way internally, unfortunately. And so when I started going to therapy and realizing it wasn't

my fault, like that concept, you know, I think about Good Will Hunting, that movie where that scene Robin Williams is telling Matt Damon, like, it wasn't your fault. It wasn't your fault. Like really repeating that over and over again. I had to do that with myself as well. And then that opened up everything because then possibilities started emerging. Like, you know, when I said earlier in the podcast, John White said, in order to reimagine society, we have to reimagine ourselves. I was in the phase of reimagining who I was because I had this whole crutch of a narrative that wasn't working for me anymore. So in my subconscious, I started dreaming and started reenacting my younger self and some of the things that she went through, but then changing it and saying all the things I had never said, but wish I had. And so in one of my dreams, I confronted my abuser and an enabler and said, you know, this isn't right. I need help. And the enabler said, well, if you say anything, you're going to make it worse. So just keep quiet for now. And then I said, well, I can't keep quiet.

And I remember my dream looking at little me saying that. And I woke up with like goosebumps and I said, oh, that was so intense. And then I went to the studio to meet up with Adrian. We had scheduled a session to write a song together. And I told her about this dream and she said, oh, well, that's your chorus, you know? And I thought, oh, that's interesting. And in words, I can hear melodies because of how we accent words. And I think I learned this from the Beatles. They always write things like in a colloquial way, their melodies follow the accents of how we pronounce words. So within I Can't Keep Quiet had a melody already. And then the song just like started just blooming before our eyes. And I delighted in the whole process because I just broke all the rules. And I was like, I don't care.

I'm just going to like, I'm just going to write what I want. I'm going to write the lyric woman, because even though like, I, I not trying to leave men out, but like in this moment, I'm just going to declare that for myself. And, um, yeah, I'm going to talk about not spreading my legs and different things like that. And who cares? Like whatever. And it just felt so free. And as a result, after we wrote it, I felt like this tension released from my body that I've been carrying for 14 years. So, yeah, I was curious about that. Like when, when you, it's almost like on the one hand, you're creating something and simultaneously exercising something. That's a good way of putting it. Totally.

And that's, after I wrote that song, it brought me a lot of opportunities because it went viral a couple of years later. But I was on tour with Ani DeFranco and I told her, man, quiet. This song brings me into situations that make me really nervous, but I have to grow into those moments. And like this song is teaching me how to not keep quiet

because my instinct is I want to. And she said, well, you're writing yourself into existence. I was like, oh, that's such a good phrase. She just said it casually over like a glass of beer. As, as Ani does. So it's like, it's like if you're hanging out, you have to keep a notepad all the time. It's like, wait, what was that? Yes. They have so many gems that she just drops. And like, I'm, I, that one really stuck with me with her, like ocean eyes, like her deep, like wisdom filled eyes. Like she told me that. And now I do that. Like, and I think most writers could relate to that. And, you know, or artists in general, we create things that we aspire towards and then we sometimes get to become them. I love the way you put that. That makes a lot of sense. And also when Ani says that to you, you know, it's interesting because probably a lot of other people could have

said a really similar line to you, but because of, you know, who she is and you know what she's been through and how she has essentially created herself and her process of becoming, you know, it's sort of like, okay, the messenger here is worth believing. Ani DeFranco is definitely a messenger for many of us, just delivering the truths in such a beautiful way. And she's just written some life-changing music for so many people and the way that she lives out her message is incredible and you know as i'm embarking on an independent path i think i'm gonna reach out to her to just you know i think she'll have you know wisdom about that as well you know she, she's built it from the ground up independently.

I mean, Righteous Bay Records, you know, that's, she's done incredible things, you know, both in the music side, but on the business side, it's, it's, it's unreal, you know, what she's created. It's really amazing. Yeah. Like the musical Hadestown, right. That was also part of Righteous Bay because she has that artist who created that whole musical. It's really powerful what she's built. Yeah, it's amazing. So you write this song in 2015 and then you're sort of performing it. But like you said, 2017 becomes this moment, you know, the Women's March, I guess you see it coming and you're like, okay, so this song and this moment, something special has

to happen around it. And it has to happen on this day in a public way. I felt this, it was very visceral. That's why I like when, when younger songwriters and artists asked me like what they should do is like, don't worry, just like keep writing and keep showing up and pay attention, pay attention to how your body feels in certain moments. When I was watching Trump get elected and at the end of 2016, I felt this heat in my body and it was a similar heat that I felt when I wrote quiet. It was like the similar sense of like power within myself, like I'm going to say something about this. And so then I decided to match them up. I was like, if these feelings feel so similar, then I'm going to somehow match this up. I didn't know how it's going to do it.

And then eventually through brainstorming with friends like Krista, she created the pink pussy hats. She is a visionary in many ways. And she envisioned a sea of pink hats. And she did this during Thanksgiving, this idea. And she created a really easy knitting template. And she was like, that's my vision. I was like, oh, it's so cool. I was like, I want to share my song, but I don't know how to do it yet. And so I was like, but, you know, what's interesting is that I've always loved harmony.

And I've always, it's always healed me singing with other people in harmony, acapella groups and choirs and all that. I was like, what if I created a wall of sound? Like I've always admired public art, street muralists. And I thought, what if I can make a street mural, but it's just sonic? Because if it was just me and a guitar or me passing out CDs of the song, like the experience isn't there. And I know us humans love a good experience.

So I started recruiting singers to come together. Some people I didn't know just cold emailed singers and sent them the song. So do you want to harmonize on this? And, you know, all the stars aligned and I bought a ticket with my little bank account, bought a ticket for me and my friend. And we decided to go and embark on this journey. And, uh And we led these women in harmony and it was such a powerful experience. And it was one of those things where I was like realizing in the moment,

oh, this is cool. Like we don't know each other, but we're creating something that we all deeply know about, which is this desire to be heard and seen. Yeah. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. It sounds like there are like 25, 26 of you performed that a handful of different times and then as you're having this feeling this this moment from the inside out filmmaker amara happens to capture i guess it was on her cell phone right yeah and then post it on her account and the video of this thing just explodes and the song really becomes an anthem. And I

remember the first time I heard it and I was like, I'm somebody who responds really deeply to music, to melody and to lyric. And I was just like shaking. And it was incredible because it's not just for me, because I think everybody feels that at some point, but also in the context that it was being offered, I was like, how many women and girls have I known? And do I know in my life that have been feeling this and that have kept quiet and I have been completely unaware. And so it just like, it started something spinning. And I think, you know, that landed for so many people and it's in, in all different, really personal ways. Thanks for sharing your experiences that that's very moving to hear of, you know, men experiencing the song and empathizing with the woman's experience. And, and then I have also heard from men who have experienced similar things and feel themselves within it too, which gives me a lot of hope

because there's such similarities between the genders and there's so much common ground we can work off of. It's like just putting in the energy to communicate those nuances is what we're learning to do. And it's tempting to be quick and assertive with our messages on social media. I hope there's more of a movement towards nuanced conversation in social media and in real life. Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah. I feel like we need that so deeply right now. Everything is so short, soundbite, emoji, seeing myself and I'm seeing the world and I'm seeing those around me differently.

And it opens you to, it plants the seeds of desire for a more nuanced way of being with other people in the world. That's a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, you're definitely a great writer. It comes through in your podcast. I love it. So not only does this thing express so much, but it becomes this huge thing, which, which draws a ton of attention to you, you know? So on the one hand, it's this beautiful work of art and it's a beautiful offering and it's a moment in time, but also all of a sudden there's all this industry interest and commercial interest and, you know, which for you who've been out on the road working and working and working and working

for years, I'm curious how, you know, you experienced that moment as an artist and as a professional, you know, like putting in the time and doing your laps. And all of a sudden this explosion of attention happens to you. What's that like for you? Like on multiple levels. Yeah. The explosion of attention, because the explosion came from something so organic and so visceral for my own healing, the attention was a form of healing within itself because it reminded me that if I speak out my truth and if I use my art to heal the things I need to heal my

personal life, it could heal others in this magnanimous way that I can't even imagine. And that's exactly what happened before my eyes. And I was very moved by that. And it taught me a lot about life, about persistence. And it also helped reaffirm my inner knowing that I had this inner voice that I needed to listen to. And it also affirmed this, like we were talking in the beginning of this conversation, the suffering and the growth go hand in hand. All the years of being misunderstood or not finding a place in the industry built to a point where I created my own space. And I think that's the most gratifying thing. And I'm still working on that, like building my own space. Also then it creates, and then to every light there's shadow, right? And so on the other side, the attention and the expectations started

heightening. And so I started focusing a lot on the major label deal I had signed and the numbers. And then, you know, as we talked, we're kind of going full circle now. And it kind of took me away from myself in a bit because I was trying to climb another ladder. And now that I'm taking some time to like reflect on the past four years, I realized that I can let go of all of that because the truth of what quiet brought to me was that it was just about healing and the people. So if I continue to show up and write that from there and offer that and focus on what is happening in the world, it will all make sense. And what I've realized, like I said, time and intention is I want to build so that I'm paying attention to the things that I want to pay attention to. What's happening in the news, what's happening in the world,

allowing myself to digest it in a way without like, you know, freaking myself out too much and then letting myself process and write the songs and offerings. I think it's been an interesting journey and it's really meaningful to talk to you about it now as it's been this four-year journey. And now I'm kind of returning back to what that truth was because it was like just me singing on the street with 25 awesome ladies, you know? So it's like returning to that process of just like the sacred prayer, right? Lugging the piano and setting up the piano and setting up the microphone and being grateful, like, oh, I can sing because some women in some countries can't sing yet. And so we got to write those songs to impact that movement, know yeah i mean i thought it was really um

i love that sort of like full circle awakening to um you and you end up releasing um an ep this is not the end i guess it's 2018 2019 2018 right yeah 2018 yeah right i thought it was really interesting because one of um you chose to cover a song which is like really close to my heart um uh ooh child you know five stair steps back in 70 but the version that has been in my life since you know i was really young was the 71 version that nina simone did you know i grew up with my parents filling the house with nina sim all this really, and that song was like on rotation regularly. And so I just loved the song. And then I heard your cover and I was not only do I love the way that you do it, but

it was also really interesting to me that you chose of any cover that you could have put on the album. You chose that song. Yeah. It felt like the universe was conspiring with that because alma harrell and i had conversations and she really wanted me to sing it and um and almost her also woman who like changed my life with her video recording so once i started singing it i was like oh this is really healing and the dna of the song is astoundingly um groundbreaking like it's so it

seems very simple but what it's doing instrumentally is brilliant and out of the box um so it it's symbolic in a sense like to be able to say ooh child things are gonna get easier we want to do incredible groundbreaking work, like the groundbreaking chords and music that is structured in a song in order to deliver something that feels easy for others. Like that's service to me. You know, I really love that. Yeah. I mean, I, I love that you sort of like, for all the reasons you shared that you, you felt like this was a song that needed to be offered. You know, it's interesting. When you sing that song, when you sing other songs,

if I hear you, there's something that happens. I've seen you on video a few different times. And it feels like you go somewhere. And I'm a huge blues fan. And I remember seeing Stevie Ray Vaughan. When he got lost in the music, he wasn't on stage anymore. There was the physical meat suit of Stevie on stage, but he was utterly somewhere else. And it was like, there was something coming from him, but there was also something moving through him. And I was curious whether you have a sense when you're not just writing, but actually performing how much of, or maybe when

you're writing also of some mix of, yes, there's something coming directly from me through my direct experience of life, but there's also something that feels like it's moving through me. I love that you asked that because the older I get, the more tapped into the power that goes, comes through me. I actually felt it when I was younger too. I like, the more tapped into the power that goes, comes through me. Um, I actually felt it when I was younger too. I like, there are certain songs that I write that when I'm writing that it just feels like I'm following something. I'm following an energy that is guiding me. And it's pretty effortless. And when I, and then sometimes some songs are different because the universe is working through me in nudging me to keep showing up, even though I don't see the evidence.

Like recently, I just wrote a song that started off quite odd. And I was like, this is an odd song. But I said, I'm going to just come back tomorrow and see what happens. And then it started moving. So I'm learning as I get older as a writer to like. Just keep showing up. Something will happen if I just let the forces work through me and not make it about me. When I'm singing is the same way. When I'm singing on stage, I feel like one, I'm finally home, there's like some sense of calm that happens with me, like that I am trying to access more in my day-to-day life because I don't think it's healthy for me to be so anxious all the time. So I'm really working on that. But when I'm on stage, I feel this release and something special happens when I have my hands on the keys and I sing like there's something about my body needing to focus on

the rhythm and the notes of the keyboard that occupies a lot of the mental energy I have so that I can just float. I'm surfing something else with my voice because my voice is able to move without much thinking. My hands can too, but they're not as, they don't have as much dexterity as my voice does. So I kind of do whatever I can to allow my voice to find the wave. There's like a wave and I surf it, you know? That sounds amazing. You feel that also. I saw the tape of you with doing the massive and stunning acapella version of Quiet with Choir, Choir, Choir, which was what, like a thousand people in a warehouse or something

like that? Yeah, yeah. With like one guitar, your voice on stage, and then all of these people. And it was breathtaking. And I was like, you seem like you just went somewhere. Oh yeah. We all went somewhere and it was this magical thing. And I was bawling the whole time when they were rehearsing. I was sitting in the side of the stage and sometimes I'd pop out and sing with them. And I was just crying the whole time because it felt very elevated. The energy

was because I mean, it was things like 1300 Canadians just gathering in a room because they're like watching what's happening in the States and they're, you know, singing in, you know, with this urgency and this hope. It was so magical. Yeah. Special time. Yeah. Really powerful. Not even being there, but just witnessing it was incredible. You're, as you've kind of shared, like a of shared, there's a really strong sense of service in your work also. And you're somebody who feels deeply. More recently, somebody's beloved is something that turns into this offering for you, which grows from first music into effectively a movement. Tell me more about this, sort of like how it emerges. I wrote Somebody's Beloved. I wrote the first part

of it by myself. And then I invited my friend Adeo Marchant to finish the song with me. His artist name is Bipolar Sunshine. He's this incredible artist. And the song birthed from me paying attention to, as many of us did, to the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement and listening to Tamika Palmer talk about her daughter, Breonna Taylor, in this interview. I just started bawling my eyes out because she was talking about how Breonna Taylor in this interview, I just started bawling my eyes out because she was talking about how Breonna Taylor learned to walk at nine months. Her mother knows all these intimate details about Breonna and seeing the wonderful human that she was. And then I thought about George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery. I thought about how my participation in the ladder climbing of this U.S. structure currently caused harm

to people who get harmed by the system. And I didn't fully realize how I was participating. And also seeing some of the anti-Blackness even within Asian culture and really wanting to be a part of the change because there's the younger generations that understand the truth that we're all humans and we're all worthy. So Somebody's Beloved came about and I started writing the verses and I was really afraid to share it actually, because I didn't want to literally center my voice around something that is about Black culture and about the U.S. history. I just, I didn't have clarity and I had this moment of fear. And then I was like, you know what,

I'm either going to not release this to avoid any possible like damage that I might do from my blind spots or just go for it and then learn. So I invited Adeo Merchant to bring his perspective as a Black man into the song. And he added this depth to it that I think the song needed. And we referenced, actually, you mentioned Nina Simone. We referenced Strange Fruit, which was originally sung by Billie Holiday, then Nina Simone. And so he brought those lyrics into the song, which I'm eternally grateful for. And as I started working on the song, I realized that I was going to be releasing this song that's addressing something so sacred and important. And I'm releasing it through Atlantic Records. And I was like, I want to challenge the profit structure of this song. And so I had meetings with the label and my team, and we found a way for us to funnel resources away from the company to seven organizations that build power at racial justice through the lens of LGBTQ, through feminism,

through mental health and through incarceration reformation. And they're incredible organizations and people can learn about it on a website we built, somebodysbullup.com. And it kind of tells the whole story and it has resources. Actually, people are kind of curious. How do I get involved with anti-racist work? How do I be a part of the solution? We have done our best to create a loving energy with the website, the visuals and all that, and just invite people in. I did a version of the song with Amanda Gorman, and she wrote poetry over the song. And she said, it's about calling people in versus calling them out.

And I totally agree with what she said, because I witnessed our country go through a surge of shaming and guilting. And I understand the origin of that because it's hurtful, harmful. There's so much pain and shame and guilt are useful in a sense of a short flash of it to help us recognize we need to change direction. But for sustainable change, I think having creativity and love be the fundamental ingredients is going to help us keep doing the work because it will feel energizing and feel healing to continue to do it. And like, I want to do this work for the rest of my life now that I understand what the structure is and I'm having more awareness. So I hope that the song and the fund and the website all kind of work to invite people in. And I've gotten messages from like Asian women who didn't know how to speak out about it or didn't know how to get involved. They're starting to

like find themselves because they're seeing an Asian woman do that and talk about anti-Blackness and talk about how we're part of the problem, but also potential solution. So it's been a really educational process. I'm learning as I go and I've probably made mistakes and have had blind spots as I've gone. But, you know, I'm totally open to learning. And so we just did a campaign. We raised enough money in December and January to write $10,000 checks to each organization. And I've also gotten my friends at Procter and Gamble, who are such good people and they, they want to do better work. And so they've actually

been in contact with each beneficiary and they're fulfilling a list of their needs. So like feminine hygiene pads to laundry detergent, different things like that. So it's really cool to see. We hope, you know, that I'm not doing this by myself. It's with a group of people who are really passionate about doing this long-term work. So we're just trying to do the little bits that we can and, you know, we'll keep learning as we go. Yeah. It's there's so much that's really is coming full circle with your music your your empathetic heart your desire to to not just express but uplift and um and bring in and invite in um feels a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well so hanging out here in this container of good life project if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to

boldly decide that you deserve to design your time the way that you want. I think that's a good life. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Justin Tranter about their journey through challenging times as a kid growing up and then stepping into the world of

music first as a musician and then as a powerhouse songwriter and collaborator. You'll find a link to Justin's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference Between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him

Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk