Good Life Project - How to Connect With Anyone | Charles Duhigg

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

Being a super-communicator isn’t a gift, it’s a skill anyone can learn.Ever wish you were the person who could talk to anyone with ease? Like anyone you came in contact with became instant friends, confidantes, or trusted allies and collaborators. Turns out, this superpower is not something you’re born with, it's something you can learn. This episode shows you how. Our guest is Charles Duhigg, a Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter for The New York Times and the best-selling author of The Power of Habit and his book, Supercommunicators.In this conversation, you’ll learn:The "Matching Principle" that determines if a conversation succeeds or fails3 distinct types of conversations and how to identify which one you’re actually inThe "Heard, Hugged, or Helped" framework for navigating emotional conflict with easeA secret CIA recruitment strategy for building instant trust with complete strangersThe power of "deep questions" to bypass small talk and reach the heart of any matterIf you've ever walked away from a conversation feeling disconnected, it's time to learn the rules of the game. Listen to this episode to transform your relationships and become a supercommunicator today.You can find Charles at: Website | Instagram | Episode TranscriptNext week, we're sharing a conversation with Krista and Will Vanderveer. We’ll be talking about how to make the 'invisible' rules in your relationship visible so you can stop walking on eggshells and start leading together.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So you know that feeling when you're just trying to tell someone maybe you like or love or work with about a hard day and they immediately jump in with a list of ways to fix it. It's frustrating, right? It feels like you're just speaking two different languages and instead of feeling supportive, you just feel kind of alone and frustrated. I have definitely been there and I have also been the one causing that conversational friction and pushing people away. As it turns out, there's a scientific reason for that disconnect. And it doesn't have to be that way. Today, we're deconstructing the mythology of, quote, natural communicators to show that connection is actually a skill that anyone can learn. Joining me is an old friend, Charles Duhigg. Charles is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and the author of The Massive Hit, The Power of Habit, and his latest book, Supercommunicators, is a master class in how we connect with other people. We talk about this thing called the matching principle that can save a marriage or a business partner or close a big deal, the three specific types of conversations that we all have that we don't actually know we're having, and a wild story about how the CIA uses vulnerability to recruit assets. You learn how to ask

these deep questions that can turn strangers into friends and why the fact to get to the feeling is a total game changer. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. So really excited to do. dive into this this topic because you know it touches on so many different domains of life right now you can look at communication and how you know there seem to be people who move through life and really struggle to just connect with anyone else and then there these other people who seem to move through life and somehow be anointed yeah like they can just walk into any room they can sit down across the table from any person and this magical thing unfolds and I feel like there's

There's so much mythology around this and also misinformation and assumptions that aren't true. So I love that you sort of took on this topic and said, let's actually deconstruct this a bit and look into it. You know, like these people that we hold up and say like these people just have something about them. They're able to connect with others in a way that is, you know, almost godlike. It's not necessarily something that you're just born with or not. No, not at all. And that's a really good way of putting it, right? Is that we all know those people who are on both sides of the spectrum.

And we've been ourselves on both sides of the spectrum, right? There's times when you, like, walk into a meeting and you just know exactly what to say or what to say to a friend to make them feel better. And other times that you're hanging out with someone and you really want to connect with them, and it's, you just can't, right? It's like there's, and what's interesting is there is this myth that this is an inborn characteristic. The good communicators are born knowing how to communicate.

and the bad communicators are socially awkward. And that's not right at all. Like what we've learned, particularly in the last decade, because we're kind of living through this golden age of understanding communication because of all these advances in science, is the people who are good at communication, it is a skill that anyone can learn. And the reason they're good at communication is because they've simply learned

how communication works. Like they've sat down and either through intuition or through coaching or through experimentation, they've figured out that there are these rules, right, that help us connect with other people and that if you, if you observe the rules, your conversations go really well. And if you don't know the rules, you get fouled up even though you don't intend to. Yeah, I mean, that lands so strongly with me. And this is also, you know, speaking as somebody who has made a living, creating or co-creating conversations with people for over a decade now. But when I look at my younger life, I was not somebody who ever would sit down and

feel comfortable with a complete stranger. Yeah. And then just, like, in minutes going deep and having like these incredible conversations about topics that, you know, really care about, I was the opposite out of the spectrum. And in different situations and circumstances, I still am. So what's interesting to me is I think it's also it's context sensitive. Yeah. No, it absolutely is. And my guess is if you look at people who are great communicators, oftentimes there was something in their childhood or their youth that made it hard for them to connect to other people. And so they basically had to learn how to do it. They had to

to work on recognizing the skills. And for me, this, this project kind of started with a situation that I think, I'm assuming is probably familiar to you and everyone is listening, which is there would be these times that I would come home from work and I would be in a bad mood. And I would like start complaining to my wife, like, oh, like, you know, my boss is a jerk and my coworkers don't understand me and nobody's like giving me enough credit and yada, yada, yada. And my wife would say something very, very rational and reasonable and practical. She would say like, look, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can like get to know each other a little bit better. And she was very well intentioned in doing so, right?

But instead of hearing what she was saying, my reaction was to like get even angrier and to be like, why aren't you supporting me? Like I just, I just, you know, why are you taking their side? And we're married and we love each other. And we're usually pretty good communicators. And I couldn't figure out why this would happen again and again. and it wasn't just with her, obviously. This happens all the time, right? And so I started calling up neurologists and others and saying, like, you know, what do we know about communication?

And what they said made a lot of sense as soon as I heard it. What they said is like, look, most of us when we think about a discussion, we think it's like one thing, right? It's about one topic. And that's not right at all. Actually, every conversation is usually three different kinds of conversations. And they're happening in sequence and they're mixed together. And so there's usually like a practical conversation, right? A conversation about like, how do we solve this problem, which is what my wife was saying.

And then there's an emotional conversation, a conversation where the goal is not to solve a problem. It's just to learn how each other feels, to express our emotions. So that's the conversation I was having. I was upset. And then there's also a social conversation, which is a conversation about, you know, how we relate to other people and how other people see us. And in all three of these conversations are equally legitimate conversations. But the thing that happens, what's known in psychology is the matching principle, is that if two people are having different kinds of conversations at the same time, then they miscommunicate. They fail to hear each other. It's like two ships passing in the night. So when I would come in and I was having an emotional conversation and my wife would respond with a practical conversation and all these good advice, the reason why I couldn't hear what she was saying was because we were literally speaking different kinds of language. is we were using different parts of our brains.

And so one of the things that we know is that in order to really connect with each other, we have to be able to recognize, A, what kind of conversation is happening right now. And B, we have to learn how to invite each other to have the same kind of conversation at the same time. Because if I say something emotional and my wife responds with an emotional conversation, and then she says something practical, then I'm ready to come back and get into a practical mindset. But if we're having these two different conversations at the same time, that's when everyone walks away frustrated. Yeah, that makes so much sense. And yet it's one of those things I think nobody pays attention to, let alone realize is, oh, there are three different contexts we could be having here.

Totally. And if we don't meet, there's just nothing good is going to come out of this. You tee up a really interesting story about a guy in the CIA, Jim Lawler, and how this notion came. in when recruiting intelligence office. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And Jim Lawler is like, so Jim Lawler ended up being one of the most successful CIA recruiters in history, right?

Like he turned, you got thousands or not thousands. You got dozens and dozens of people to basically become CIA assets overseas. And he was terrible at it when he started. Like he was in his 30s. He's sent to Europe. And he's just, he literally like is incompetent at trying to have conversations with people. And what he discovered was that like, well, he actually told me the story that's kind of a great story, which is that before he had joined the CIA, he'd been working for his dad in sales. And he was like a terrible salesman. His dad had this, um, they sold metal Joyce and stuff in West Texas. He was just a terrible salesman. And so he would, he would go to places and try and make his pitch and they, you know, businesses would just brush him off. And then he went to this, see this one woman who's a, her son was in the office with her. And she was on the phone when Loller got there. And she was on the phone when Loller got there. And she was on. and he was waiting for her to finish. And then, you know, she finishes her phone call and he kind of

makes his pitch. And she's like, look, I'm not interested in buying any of your Joyce. But then she just starts talking about her life. And she starts talking about like how hard it is to be a mom and a business woman. And she always feels like, you know, letting someone down. And Loller, who's like, you know, at this point, like 26, he has no idea what to say, right? He's like the deer with, like, deer in the headlights. And he's like, uh, okay, because he doesn't have kids. He doesn't know what to do with some, you know, adults suddenly unloading about like their life. So he just does the same thing.

He like starts talking about how like he's not getting along with his brother because his brother's a better salesman than he is and it's caused all this tension and Loller feels really bad about himself. And, and they just connect because they're having the same kind of conversation, right? Inadvertently, he had matched the kind of conversation that she is having. He had matched her emotionally.

She had shown vulnerability and he had reciprocated that vulnerability, which is an important, an important part of how conversation works. And then he like says like, do you want, do you want to buy any steel? And she's like, no, I still don't want any steel. But two weeks later, she calls and she places one of the biggest orders in the company's history. And Laller's like, I don't think we can give you the pricing that you're looking for. And she was like, that's okay. I feel like we have a connection. Like, I feel like you and me were going to work together for a long time. And this is what we know. And that's exactly

the strategy he used with overseas assets, is that he learned that if he speaks the language they are using. If they're talking about how they're concerned and they feel uncertain of themselves and they feel worried, that rather than being saying like, it's all going to be okay, I promise, I can take care of this. I'm going to keep you safe. If he turned to them and you say, look, I know, I feel the same way that's all the time. Like, I'm worried I'm going to get deported from this country. I'm worried someone's going to, I'm worried I'm going to get fired. I'm worried that my wife is going to leave me. If he's as vulnerable with them as they are with him, then they feel like they have a connection, they feel like they can trust each other. Or if they come in practical and they

say, look, the reason I don't want to give you secrets is because, you know, you're not paying me enough and I'm worried I'm going to get caught. And he gets practical. And he says, look, let me take you through all the steps we're going to take to make sure that you don't get caught. If he matches them and invites them to match him, that's when we connect. Let's say somebody wants to really better understand how to identify which are the three types of conversations are happening at a given moment. What would be tells for somebody basically be able to pick up fairly quickly, oh, this is actually what the person is. This is what's happening here. And let me step into that same mode and meet them there. So it's actually pretty easy once you start looking for it.

Right. So if you're, if you just listen to what someone's saying and ask yourself, are they talking to me about emotional things? Are they talking to me about how they feel? Are they talking to me about practical problems? Or are they talking to me about a social issue, like how other people see them or how they see themselves because of their background and their identity, all we really have to do is draw our attention to it, and we tend to notice pretty quickly. And I'll give you an example in our conversation. The other thing I'll mention, though, is that oftentimes you can just ask, right? Like, if I come home and you don't have to hide it. You don't have to hide it. You don't have to put it on here.

Yeah, you don't have to look for a tell. You can say like, if when I come home and I'm upset, my wife now says like, do you want me, like, do you want me just to listen to you and understand how you're feeling? Or do you want to try and solve this? And sometimes, sometimes that's enough for me to be like, actually, I need you to listen until now. And now that you've asked that question, I'm ready to start solving it. One way that, another thing that people use sometimes is, do you want to be heard, hugged, or helped?

They actually use this a lot in schools. Like when a kid is upset, the teacher says to them, do you want to be heard, hug, or helped, right? And heard means you're having an emotional conversation. Like, you just need me to hear what you're saying. Hugged is kind of a social thing, right? Like, you need to know that I, another person, care about you and that I'm comforting you. And helped is a practical conversation. Like, you're asking me to help you solve this problem. And so, so a good example is, like, I think in our conversation, or let me, let me ask you this. Like, you do a ton of conversations like this, when you want to help nudge a conversation into an emotional place,

what do you do in order to signal that to the other person, to invite them to join you in an emotional conversation? Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting question. And to me, there's something that happens before I would do anything to invite someone into it, which is creating safety. to me, one of the things that I always try and do is create a container of psychological safety and in any number of different ways

it's going to be different for different people. But then if I want to invite them into something which is deeper or more emotional, I might share something that's emotional myself to telegraph that this is a safe space to share on this level and in this context. I might also just, you know, So there's one of the monos that I live by

when certainly deepening into conversations is often shorthand the fact to get to the feeling. So it's not unusual for folks to kind of want to tell their story in a very factual way. Like this happened, then this happened, then this happened. Which is like there's value in that, right? But what I'm always more interested in, I think a lot of what you're often interested in is like,

but what's underneath that? So oftentimes the simple question, tell me more bridges the gap it it it's it gives some of the opportunity to move beyond the fact and and opens the door to feeling and what I hear you saying and I think this is this is what the literature says and I think it's really really wise is that there's something important about vulnerability right that if you say something emotional you're exposing a little bit of vulnerability it invites the other person to reciprocate that vulnerability and in doing so you create this trust the psychological safety

or simply saying to someone, like, tell me more about that, is showing them I'm interested in what's going on. And in the literature, there's this thing known as deep questions. And deep questions are actually really, really interesting. There's a guy named Nick Epley, who's a psychologist. And one of the things I love about Nick is he has studied conversation and questions most of his career. And he comes to it pretty honestly. When he was in high school, he was pulled over twice for driving while and talk. And he was like the, you know, the quarterback of the football team and Mr. Popular on campus.

And the second time he's pulled over, his parents are super freaked out. And they're like, look, man, there's a problem here. And he didn't hear them at all. They were like, tell us what's going on. Like, why are you feeling this way? Like, why do you feel like you need to drink and drive? Why are you being a jackass? And he's like, you guys don't understand me.

I hate you, et cetera. And so they're like, look, you got to go talk to a therapist. So they sent him to this therapist. and the therapist, instead of lecturing him or interrogating him or anything like that, just says, look, I just want you to tell me, why do you think this happened? Like, what were you feeling right before you had that drink and got into that car? Not like, I'm going to judge you for it, just literally like, I'm just curious what you were feeling. And then Nick would answer that question and she would ask another question, a follow up and again and again.

And eventually Nick started listening to himself. And he realized what he was saying was, I drink because I feel uncomfortable. And then once I, then I have to get home and I don't have another option. And at that point, Nick says, actually,

like, now I understand why I'm doing this thing. Not because the therapist told him what he was doing. Not even because she led him down like a garden path towards it. She just asked questions that asked him how he felt. And this is what we know about deep questions, is that deep questions invite us to expose us, to expose a vulnerability, because they ask about something about our beliefs or values or our

experiences. And what's crazy is they don't have to seem that deep, right? Like, if you meet someone and you ask them instead of, what do you do for a living, you say to them, what do you love about your job? That's a deep question. You're inviting them to tell you something about how they see the world and what they enjoy about life and how they see meaning in their own work. And then when they answer that with a little bit of vulnerability, when they say, like,

I love about it is it lets me help people's lives and, you know, not all my coworkers are the best. If you reciprocate that vulnerability and you say what I, like, I totally understand what you're saying and I feel the same way because here's what I love about my work, you can't help but trust each other, right? It's almost impossible not to build that psychological safety because we've both exposed a little bit of who we are to the other person. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. as you're sharing that, I'm realizing that oftentimes I'll also just ask people,

you know, like a simple question, like, well, how did that make you feel? Yeah, it's a great question. And nobody asks questions in conversation every day. People are like, somebody just shares this thing and we rarely ask that question. And I wonder sometimes if we don't ask questions like that of friends, a family members, a co-workers, because we're afraid of what the answer is going to be. because if it's not awesome or great, but actually, like, I'm really struggling,

it places a, we feel like that would then place a burden upon us to then respond to it in a way that was meaningful and thoughtful, and we don't know how to do that. So we just decide not to go there entirely, which keeps a level of separation between us. I think that's really smart. I think it's a really, really smart insight. And, of course, that sense of obligation that we feel,

that worry that something will be, that we won't perform, live up to it. That's actually totally incorrect, right? Because if we ask someone, how do you feel? And they say, I'm actually feeling kind of down. All we have to do is say, tell me more about why you're feeling down. And we have fulfilled their need. They're signaling to us like they actually want to talk about what's on their mind.

And that doesn't mean we have to solve the problem for them. In fact, we shouldn't solve the problem for them. Right. That's a different conversation. That's a different conversation. Right. And sometimes our instinct, when somebody says, I'm feeling really down,

is to try and pick them up, right? To try and give them all these reasons why they shouldn't feel down. You're so great. But that's not what they're asking for. That's a practical conversation. That's us trying to, like, solve the situation. What they're saying to us is,

I feel down and I want someone to hear why. And sometimes just by explaining it to you, I'll figure out more about myself in doing so. And the more that we seek to match them where they are, and then invite them to match us. Like sometimes, like, one of the best things that I think you can say to someone after you've asked them like, why do you feel that way? Tell me more about it is if you say to them, like, can I tell you, can I tell you like how I've handled this situation in the past? Ask for permission to change the conversation to a practical conversation. Oftentimes people are like, hell yeah. Like, like, thank you. Thank you for inviting me to change the conversation from this, you know, pity party for myself into something. And to something. And, like, like, like, thank you. Thank you for inviting me to change the conversation from this, you know, you know, you know, something else. But the point is that we have to invite them. We have to open up the door to that, not force it on them. Yeah. I mean, in this same vein, you make a really interesting point

in the book, which is that we're often taught that perspective taking is the most effective way to actually build this bridge. And it can be. But it's not always the best way. And sometimes there are different ways in. I mean, I remember talking to somebody recently about empathy and conversations and who was sharing, you know, like we feel this human compulsion to say, when somebody shares something, we want to then reciprocate on a similar level, and that can be a mechanism to build this mutual progressive vulnerability. But sometimes it turns into something different, which is a little bit of like a competitive, like sharing type of thing. and that they're simply, you know, being able to respond differently.

Like, that's not the only path. That's exactly right. To deepen the connection and let somebody feel seen, heard, and held. That's exactly. So, and I think this is a really good point. So reciprocity is a really important part of conversations, right? Like giving back and forth. But there's a difference between reciprocity and stealing the spotlight for yourself.

So we've all been in this situation, right? somebody who you know we come to someone and we say like you know I'm kind of bum I feeling down because my my aunt is sick and they say oh man yeah my dad was sick last year and this is how I felt about it and it's kind of like okay like I mean we have this experience in common but I'm not I'm talking about myself here or even worse they're like oh man my dog was sick last week and you're like you're like my aunt being sick and your dog being sick it doesn't seem like the same to me so the question is how do we how do we show what's known as conversation receptiveness, this reciprocity in a situation like that. What reciprocity means is not matching,

you know, woe to woe. What it means is showing the other person that you have heard them. So sometimes if someone says, I'm feeling really down because my aunt is sick, all that they really need to hear is us saying, it seems like this is really bothering you, and I'm sorry that it's bothering you. Tell me more about it. Right. We've reciprocic. They've showed us that they're upset, and we've reciprocated that by saying, I recognize that you're upset. And it's valid that you're upset. It's totally valid that you're upset. Not because I have an aunt that got sick myself, but because I hear you in pain, and I just want you to know that I see that and tell me more about it.

That is reciprocity. And it's a form of reciprocity that doesn't steal the spotlight. And as that conversation gets deeper, you might very well say, like, you know, what I hear you saying is that you're feeling. really down about this and I understand that because, you know, I had a parent who or I had a family member who got sick a year ago. But instead of trying to force my story on them, simply by showing them that I hear what they're saying, that's what reciprocity is. Which can be so powerful. I mean, and I know, you know, I've had friends who have been in deep grief or friends who are dealing with who have cancer. And they're not looking for reciprocity and they're not looking for, and they're not looking for

the practical conversation either. Like, all they want to do is not be ignored. Yes. Because so many people don't know how to respond in the situation so they just back away. That's exactly. And like the simple, I literally asked a friend of mine once, like, what should I say to you? Or to anyone else who's like in this and let's just she, she's like, honestly, just anything like, that must be so hard. Yeah. That's it. You know, my dad died about five years ago. And, And the interesting thing for anyone who's at a parent pass away is it's obviously sad and it's hard and it brings up all these emotions. It's also really interesting, right? It's oftentimes like the most interesting thing that has happened that month because it does bring up all these new emotions and these new experiences.

And I would come back and people would ask me, you know, hey, where were you last week? And I'd say, you know, my father passed away and I was at the funeral. And nobody ever asked me anything about the funeral. They never asked me anything about my dad. And I was like, if somebody had said, you know, what was your dad like? I would have loved to have told them about that, right? Like, I would have loved to have told them about this thing I just experienced that was so, like, meaningful and profound. And that doesn't mean that they have to say, you know, my dad died too, so I understand what that's like.

But simply showing curiosity in someone else's experiences, that's the thing that helps us connect. And it's interesting. I'll mention, and this is like on a completely different tone, in the book, there's this, the story about the Big Bang theory, this TV show that like a biggest sitcom. One of the things that the writers of that show found, which is why it succeeded so well, is they found that when they have characters obviously try to connect with each other, then it almost doesn't matter what the character is saying. The audience likes them. So there's something about our psychology, and this is a product of evolution, that when someone shows that they want to connect with us, we tend to see that as a very trusting gesture. And laughter is a great example of this. If there's been all these studies that have looked at when people laugh, and you would think that people laugh in response to something that's funny.

And that's not true. That's only true for like 20% of the time. Like, just like I laughed. When people laugh, it's usually because they're showing someone that they want to connect with them. And then the other person will laugh back to show that that desire for connection has been acknowledged. It's like an evolutionary trait that's developed within our brains. And in fact, NASA uses this to try and figure out who will be good astronauts. They pay attention to how astronaut applicants laugh when they're in interviews because they found that the people who,

laugh genuinely, who match each other, match the laughter of the interviewer, those people are signaling that they want to connect. And it's the signaling that we want to connect that matters as much as the connection itself. We tend to think that the other person is trustworthy because they're showing us they want to connect with us. That research around laughter is so fascinating. I remember years ago reading research that said, we rarely laugh in solitude. And so this sinks completely with that because it's not just like, you know, we can think something's really funny and maybe a little chuckle, but like it is, it's a social signal. It's an absolutely social signal. And that's a huge part of laughter, which we don't really think about.

We're just like if something's funny, we laugh. Like, that's just the way it is. But no, actually, if you're sitting on a couch alone and watching like something, you're probably not going to laugh. Even if you think it's funny. But if somebody, your bestie is next to you, you guys may be cracking up next to each other. Totally. Or just notice, like, next time you're talking to a friend. and they laugh, ask yourself,

did you just say something funny? Probably the answer is no, right? You didn't say anything that funny. They're just trying to, and so one of the interesting questions is, how do we operationalize this? Like, how do we make this something that, like, that, and one of my favorite examples about how to do this is around listening,

and particularly this concept known as looping for understanding. So, so most of the time when people are listening, the way that they try and show that they're listening is that they do things like they nod while someone is speaking or they like make eye contact. The problem is when we're talking,

we're so focused on our own words that we tend not to notice what other people are doing. So when we talk about active listening, about proving that we're listening to someone, very often what matters is not what we do after they stop speaking. And in particular, there's this technique known as looping for understanding,

which is it just has three steps. It's like the simplest thing on earth. Ask someone a question. Tell them what you just heard them say. And then ask them if you got it right. Right. So like somebody says like, you know, I, I think that none of us should vote in the presidential election. Say like, you know, why do you think that way?

And then repeat back to them in your own words what they just said. And then say like, am I understanding you correctly? Did I get that right? That's how we operationalize this reciprocity, this, this reset listening receptiveness. And it's very, very simple, right? It's stuff that we learned to do like when, you know, our parents told us to do when we were like five years old. And it turns out if you do this in a conversation, it transforms hard conversations. It's basically impossible to have conflict when people are looping for understanding.

Because what we're doing is we're proving to the other person. We want to hear them. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. I have been in some way trained in that methodology in different contexts. Years ago when I was a kid, I spent a hot minute as an outside salesperson. And that was, you know, they sent all the new like people to this place and, you know, outside of D.C. And for a week, I had sales training. And they were teaching you all these quote techniques.

and we were like cold sales. We literally knock on doors of offices, walk in and say, like, I'm here to talk to the CEO. Terrifying, and I was horrible at it. But I remember, one of the things they said to do was exactly this. They're like, basically ask a question and then reflect back, you know,

like, what I hear you say is this, did I get it right? And keep going, because the person is probably going to say, well, kind of mostly, but there's this one of the things. Exactly. That actually, it's not quite right. And then they're going to share it. And then you say, oh, oh,

Oh, okay, so then what I'm hearing you say, so you keep it going around until that person is nodding, like, yes. And I've also heard a variation of this offered by therapists, especially dealing with family and relationships, where people are just really talking through each other. And this is like this really core therapeutic modality to get people to start to,

legit especially when there's some sort of resentment or anger built up absolutely to break through it because once the resentment and the anger is there you really no longer hear or see each other no you hear or see the representation of what you feel has been built over sometimes years or decades that's exactly and it breaks through the fiction of what you think is going on to get to the truth of what's going on that's totally and and this is this brings up a really interesting thing which is like how does communication work within our brains so there's been these experiences again in the last decade that have shown that when you and I connect in a conversation as we are now, if we had the ability to measure all these things, what we would see is that our eyes are starting to dilate at the same rate. Our breath is starting to match each other. Even though we're not aware of it, even though we're not in the same room, our heart rates are starting to match. If we could measure the electrical impulses on our skin are similar. And most importantly, in the reason why this is happening, is because if we could see inside both of our brains,

What we would say is our brains beginning to synchronize, right? That's what communication is. Communication is me having a thought, saying it, and you basically experiencing the same thought, understanding it. And this is known as neural entrainment in the psychological and neurological literature. And so the point that you just made, what, when we're having a conflict, when we're having a conversation in conflict, we're not entrained, right? because instead of hearing what you're saying,

what I'm doing is I'm, I have a story inside my head. I have a series of thoughts or brainwaves within my head. And I'm investing in those ones instead of listening to what you're trying to tell me. And you're doing the same thing. And so the question is, how do we break through? If communication is about us becoming entrained,

about having the same thought at the same time, really clicking, right? That's why we call it clicking. How do we do that? The number one step is to disrupt that. story that's inside our head, like to put us in a place where I can actually listen to you. And if I say to myself, instead of like my job being to respond to the attacks you're making or my job being to defend to myself, if my job is to just listen as closely as I can and

try and repeat back in my own words what you just said, I'm going to entrain with you. And more importantly, I'm going to invite you to entrain with me. because if you feel like you're being listened to, almost automatically, we start listening more closely back. Again, this is reciprocity. When someone listens closely to us, when it's clear they're making an effort,

we feel an obligation to listen closely to them. And then we become entrained. And even if we don't agree with each other, at least we understand what the other person is trying to say. Yeah, and I just think that's so important. It's funny. Like, this is elements. I've used this for,

exquisite attention for years now, talking about the, almost like the spell that can be cast between two people when they are in sync on a level where it feels like the world outside of that interaction falls away. And so you're describing sort of like, this is the physiology of some of what's actually happening inside of that state, like inside the spell, and why it's so powerful.

Yeah. Because I would imagine, even if we, like, we're not not sitting across from somebody and like measuring, you know, like their brain waves and they're all these, but there's got to be something about our sensory system beyond the words that are being said that picks it up. Absolutely. And that knows that this is unusual in a really powerful and beautiful way. Absolutely. And if you think about it, like, that's evolved within our brains, right? We basically have this ability to pick up on that stuff that I just mentioned without even realizing it, because that is the thing that makes a species survive.

Like the ability to communicate with each other, the ability to trust each other and build trust. Without that, you can't build families and societies and families and societies and cultures. They help people do better. And so the people who are good at this stuff, they end up surviving and others don't and it evolves. But here's the important part of it is that all of us have this capacity, right? it can feel very overwhelming for us to tell you, like, you know, there's three kinds of

conversations and you should match each other and you should ask deep questions. All this, it almost seems like too many, too many instructions, right? It's too much to remember. But the important thing to know about this is all of us know how to do this. It's literally an instinct that we're born with because of evolution. And so the goal of this book, super communicators and the science in many ways is just to remember. remind people of what they can do. Because sometimes we can get so deep inside our own heads that we stop paying attention. We stop paying attention to other people. We stop remembering to listen and to show that we're listening. And part of the goal of super communicators is just to say,

look, let me just remind you of how communication works because you know this. You know this on an intuitive level. And the more you listen to your intuition, the more you let go and trust yourself in a conversation, the more that conversation is going to, the better that conversation is going to go, and the more you're going to connect. What's your take on how technology plays in television? Because on the one hand, we're having this conversation. You know, we're, like, we are not in the same place. We can see each other.

We can see our body. I can hear your breathing. I can see your facial expressions. But we're not physically present in the same room, which we used to do for six years. And like the earlier part of the podcast, and that all got blown up. And overnight, we had to say, and part of our ethos was we only recorded in person in our own studio in New York City. Because I didn't feel like I could get the depth and level of connection in a virtual or a remote environment. 2020 hits, you know, we basically have to make a decision.

We're either shutting down or we're tap dancing and saying, let's try this whole new world and see if we can recreate that same thing. sense of safety and intimacy and nuance that would like conversations be real and deep and rich. I, and I realized I was wrong. I realized that we can and that on the one hand, and that the technology allowed me to do something that I never thought was possible. So that's on the give side, yay. But on the take side, so much of a technology now makes us no longer present in interactions that we're having.

And, like, no matter how much you know, oh, I want to do these things in engagement, when we've got something that is, you know, every nine seconds, there's a vibration going off in our front right pocket. It's got to be brutalizing, even if you really want to connect with other people in some way. Yeah. No, it's a really great point. And it's really interesting, Jimmy, to hear that you guys had this. Look, can I ask you one thing, that realization that you can get as deep and as meaningful

virtually as you could in person, was that right away? Or was that something that kind of gradually you learned? We learned gradually. But also, I think there was something that happened that, but for the pandemic, would have, I think we still would have gotten there, but maybe it would have taken another five, ten years, which is that everybody, the entire world was forced to get comfortable in the virtual space, you know, in a matter of weeks rather than in a matter of years because you're very existence. so often your livelihood, like, depended on it.

So everyone was weird and fumbling and awkward in the beginning. And the platforms actually got a lot better really fast. So it was all of a sudden people were like, oh, like, I actually, I can do this. Like the technology isn't a barrier. Everybody knows how to use this. And like, I kind of know that the sound has to be okay. And like, I have to be in a well-lit room. And what I didn't see coming was the potential for the intimacy and safety of a person's person.

space, their home often, would transfer into the virtual space and lend that sense of safety and intimacy to create a tether that often crossed continents. That's really, really interesting. That blew me away because I never saw that coming. So there's a story in the book about these two conversations. There's this group that wanted to try and figure out how to help people have conversations around conflict. And the conflict that they chose, just kind of by chance, was the gun.

debate. So they invited all these people who were pro-gun and all these people who were anti-gun to Washington, D.C. and they sort of at the museum, they met for three days and they trained them in communication methods. And even though these people basically were like enemies when they walked in, everyone walked away saying like, this was so meaningful. I learned so much about the other side. This was so great. And then to keep the conversation going, they move it online. They had a private Facebook page. And like literally within 45. minutes. Well, all these people who, like, walked away being like, you know, this is great. I love you. This is fantastic. Within 45 minutes, once they were online, they were calling each other like jackbooted Nazi thugs, right? And like, you know, trying to own the libs. And so there was this interesting question. Like, what happened? Why, why did this work so well in person? And then it fell apart once it went online. And what the researchers figured out was that we have been talking to each other for roughly about two millennia, right? So we have, we have. So we have. have worked out a whole series of cues and signals and ways of transmitting communication

that are so subtle that we can't even notice them at this point that have to do with verbal communication or in personal communication. But, you know, a phone conversation is really rich, right? You can still get, you can get deep with someone on the phone. On the other hand, we have only been talking online since 1983. And so as a result, there's a bunch of like, little things that, like, are still getting worked out about how to do this online. And as they're getting worked out, the problem is it's fine to work them out. But the problem is that when we don't say, oh, look, we're at the beginning of this. We got to, there's going to be mistakes.

I need to over-explain to someone what I'm thinking or feeling, when I'm typing as opposed to when I'm talking. When we don't realize that we're, that we need to over-emphasize, that's when something bad happens. So one of the interesting things I heard you say is that it's not like they flipped a switch and suddenly you went from in person to virtual and you discovered, oh, virtual is as good as in person. It was a process, right? You learned how to communicate with people in a virtual manner that's a little bit different from in person. And all of us were learning because we were having these Zoom meetings and the platforms were learning how to basically, how to make this even easier for us.

And as we learn that, we get better and better at it. But that doesn't mean we are an expert on day one. And so the same way that, for instance, if I'm talking to someone in a foreign language that I'm not very fluent in, I'm going to over-explain what I'm trying to tell them because I just assume that they're going to misunderstand some of what I'm saying, because I'm not good at speaking this language. When we're online, we should kind of make the same assignment. That's why, for instance, you know, when you say something ironic, if I was to say it, something to you ironic right now, you would know from the tone of my voice that I'm being ironic. And when I type something ironic, I hear that tone of the voice inside my own head.

But you as the reader, you don't hear it. You think that I'm, you think I'm just being mean, right? Or saying something weird. And so it's just part of this is just giving us ourselves permission when we're online to be a little. bit more careful to over-emphasize a little bit more what we're actually trying to say with the full acknowledgement that like it's just because we're learning a brand new language and it takes a while to do that i also wonder that what you just described that experiment you know the other element there in my eyes would be the difference between a conversation that is private um and the conversation

that is going to be observed absolutely and when you're not a conversation that is going to be observed absolutely and you know that the conversation is going to be observed by potentially a group of people within whom you want to have a sense of belonging. And sometimes it is your primary group of people and a whole bunch of things may depend on you being a member in good standing of that community, that you're not just having that conversation with the one other person online now. You're having a conversation with everybody else who you believe to be watching that conversation.

So your social signaling to everyone else, and that may profoundly change what you're going to say. It may even make you say things that you feel really bad about saying, but the desire to not be auspicized from the group overwhelms that. And this is the social conversation. And the interesting thing about the social conversation is that it can happen when people are watching us. It can also happen when it's just one-on-one,

but we're thinking of those other people inside our head. Right. Like there's part of us that if I say something that I know would upset my mom or upset my grandmother, there's something inside my head that says like, even though my mom and my grandmother never heard, didn't hear me say this and they never will, I kind of feel bad about saying it because I know that it would bug them, right? And this social conversation is really, really important because sometimes our instinct is just to pretend it doesn't exist, right? If we're talking to someone who comes from a different social background from us, a different. a different ethnicity, a different gender, a different socioeconomic background. Sometimes our instinct is to pretend that those differences don't exist because they can feel uncomfortable. But what we know is that when we're in a social conversation, when we're talking to them about society or we're talking to them about other people, even if we're just gossiping about like the office place, which is a social conversation, that oftentimes by acknowledging those differences, we actually connect better. So for instance, I know that you live in Boulder right now and that you have one kid who's older.

My kids are younger. I think that there's a difference there that's interesting and by acknowledging it by saying, like, you have some wisdom that comes from raising a child that I don't have yet. And I have some... That's highly debatable, by the way. It's highly debatable.

It's highly debatable. And I have some instincts that come from being in the middle of it that you maybe have forgotten. Like, when we pose it that way, it's not offensive to point out these differences. It's actually recognizing and acknowledging that we have something unique to say. And the same thing is true when it's a racial difference, right?

When someone who's white and someone who's black is talking to each other, and this is something that happened in the book that we talk about at Netflix. There was this incident inside Netflix that kind of tore the company apart. And they were trying to figure how to have conversations

to come back from it. And it was around race. It was a white executive used the N-word. And it just became this thing that was eating the company up and destroying it. That the answer was to say, like, you as a black employee at Netflix, you have a set of experiences that are different from mine as a white employee. And hearing those, recognizing those, validating, that there's, those experiences are real, that's really, really important because I want to learn from them.

And similarly, as a white employee, I have a set of experiences that are different from yours. And validating and recognizing that those exist, that lets us understand each other better. That helps us entrain. And so ignoring those differences, which feels sometimes like the easiest thing to do, oftentimes is not what lets us connect. rather acknowledging the differences, validating the importance of those differences, recognizing the virtues of those differences,

how they give us perspectives that are really interesting and wonderful and worth sharing, that's the thing that makes us feel like we can all come to work or to home or to a conversation and be our full self. To not just push that aside and say, like, can we actually just center this and have a conversation about it with curiosity. Not saying what we're going to resolve this

or show that one side is right or one side is wrong, but can we actually just get curious about our differences? And the point is not to resolve it, right? Like resolving it is a practical conversation. Right. And maybe there is a time then, like, if there's something going on that we have to be practical about, we can have that conversation.

But rather than saying, like, the goal is to resolve this is just to say, I want to hear what your experiences are like. I want to show you that I'm hearing what you're telling me. And then if it's okay, I'd like to share what my experiences are like. That's how we get beyond those stories inside our heads that prevent us from hearing each other. One of the things I'm curious about also, we've kind of woven the notion of safety and then have this conversation today, and you write about this, you know, how do we make hard conversations safer?

We were just talking about that a bit also. Do you feel like, and we talked about the, difficulty of sometimes doing that when the conversation is happening at scale or in an observable way. Do you feel like there is a way to have a conversation at scale that in some way, shape, or form can bring enough safety into it so that the conversation can be what everybody wants it to be? That's really interesting. That's a really good question. And when you say at scale, what do you mean? Like what? Within a company or even like a one to many type of scenario.

You and I are just having a conversation, two people talking to each other. You and I also both speak from stages, where it's one person speaking and there are sometimes thousands of people in the audience. And sometimes you have that feeling where you feel like as the speaker you're on stage, but you feel deeply connected to everybody in that sometimes theater. and then people will walk out who are in like the third balcony in the last row and feel like you were just speaking to them. Yeah. And that to me has always felt like a bit of a superpower to be able to do that. And I'm often wondered like what lets that happen?

So I think part of a big reason, and there's a lot of research that has looked at that. And the most consistent finding is that two things are happening, that that speaker is doing, that the audience is giving the speaker permission to do. The first is that the speaker is inviting the person to connect with them, right? And the way that they do that is by exposing a vulnerability. Now, when I say exposing a vulnerability, most people think of that as like getting up and being like,

you know, my father beat me when I was a child. That's not, you don't have to do that to expose a vulnerability. Sometimes exposing a vulnerability is getting up and just saying like, hey, it is so great to be here. Thank you so much. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Right. When I say that, I'm signaling to the audience, like, I really want to entertain you. I really want, I really want you to enjoy this.

I hope that you enjoy this. And that is a vulnerability because it puts the power in the audience's hand to decide whether they think I'm doing a good job. or not. And when I do that, I'm inviting them to connect with me. I'm inviting them to, to remember those times that they have given a speech and that they really wanted it to go well and that they tried hard. It's also why when I think I'm giving a speech and I assume this is true for you and for a number of people, the thing that makes it successful, like what you didn't say is you didn't say, I was so polished. I hit my lines so well. The timing was exactly right. That's why people connected with me. It's not about being polished. Yeah, I've never had that experience, by the way.

It's about being genuine, right? It's about being real on that stage. It's about exposing something about yourself. And this is the thing that we know is that when it comes to conversations, particularly the emotional conversations, but all of them. Vulnerability is the most powerful tool that we have. And vulnerability does not mean that I need to tell you a sob story. Vulnerability does not mean that I need to need to ask you about all the trauma you've experienced. Sometimes vulnerability is just laughing.

That when someone says something that isn't that funny laughing to show them that you want to connect with them, because you're making an invitation. Like, I want, I want to be your friend. And they get to choose whether they're going to laugh back and join you in that laughter or whether they're going to brush you off. And it's the act of exposing yourself a little bit, talking about what you believe or what you feel or an experience you had, asking someone about their beliefs or their values or their experiences. That's what creates that real sense of connection and safety. And it can be one-on-one or it can be one to thousands.

Does that correspond to your experiences? Does that seem like that? Yeah, no, it definitely does because I think I spent probably the better part of the first part of my speaking career for like a better word. Trying to be like literally like having every step, every word, everything, every story dialed in. And do you feel competent doing that? Sure. Do you feel like you're in service of an audience genuinely and connecting them and giving them what they like they showed up for? Not often.

And it's only when, literally, I remember being in the middle of a keynote, going blank, which is like every speaker does it at some point. You completely forget. I often don't use slides, or there's nothing to prompt me what's coming next.

And I'm sitting on the stage, starting to hyperventilate. I'm not sitting, I'm standing on the stage, starting to hyperventilate. You know, I feel like, you know, there's sweat just exploding out of my body.

And, and I literally, I, I look at somebody in the front row, and I smile, and I'm just like, I just completely spaced out. Where was I? And she shouted out a word,

which brought me back. I giggled and kind of laughed at myself. And the audience just went along for right, because all of a sudden, they're like, wait, he's not a robot. Yeah. You know, like he's one of us. And then at that point,

it almost felt like they wanted to see me win and recover. Yeah. And then, like, that was a moment where I was like, what just happened there? Because, and can I do more of that? Not blank, go blank, but can I just, like, show up as me? And again, like, you know, there's often this mythology that, oh, you've got to tell the big, horrible story and the redemption story.

It's like, no, it's just sharing your humanity is such a big part of it, because that's, like you said, vulnerability. That's where it really happens. No, I love that story. And I do something kind of similar, which is, you know, sometimes I'll often talk about the power of habit. And I've been talking about it for a decade now. And so I kind of, you know, so what I'll do is when I'm talking about the power of habit, I'll always try and tell a new joke. And the joke that I'll choose is a joke that I'm only 50% certain is going to work.

And the reason why I choose a joke that's only 50% certain is because when it bombs, it's even better. Right? When I tell a joke and it bombs and nobody laughs. And then I'm like, okay, I guess that joke, I'm not using that joke again. It reminds people like, I'm trying. Like, I'm not on autopilot. I'm up here trying to, trying to entertain you, trying to connect with you. And that trying is what matters.

That's where the humanity comes from. And it's really powerful. And we can do it in conversations too, right? It's as simple as just saying to someone like, you know, what do you love about your job? that question exposes a vulnerability. Like, when I ask that question, it's a little personal. And it shows to the other person,

like, I'm exposing something about myself. I'm the kind of person who's willing to ask that kind of question. Will you play along and will you answer it? Because you could brush me off and be like, that's a weird question. I don't want anything to do with you anymore. But if you never ask it. But if you never ask it.

You never open the door. Exactly. And if you brush, if somebody brushes that question off, chances are the openness or willingness for connection in the first place was never there. Totally. So at least you, it's almost like you've just pre-qualified the person. Now you can move on to someone else to maybe really have that connection.

Exactly. Or maybe they're signaling like, look, I see you trying to like move this into an emotional conversation and I'm just not interested. Like I'm here for a practical conversation, right? Yeah. Like maybe there's just not resource for it in that moment. Totally. And like sometimes like if you're there to like, you know, you want to buy a car and the car salesman

that's like trying to nudge you and you're like, no, no. No, I'm not interested in telling you about your childhood. Yeah, I'm not interested in telling you about my hopes and dreams, my friend. I want to know, like, what kind of discount you're going to give me. That's like, that's okay. It's okay to signal that. The point is that you should be aware of the conversation you're having. Like, that shouldn't happen by accident.

That should happen because you're making a choice. And if you're on the other side of that, not to use car salesman, but if you're someone who's trying to connect, you should remember these in these skills that we all have. that we can actually have a deeper conversation with someone, simply by asking them to. I love that. And it feels a great place for us to come full circle as well. So I started asking this question at the end

of every Good Life Project conversation after we first sat down 12 years ago. So I'm going to ask it to you, even this is our second time recording a conversation for the first time ever, which is in the container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? That's a really good question.

I wish you'd ask me this a decade ago, and I could see how my answer has changed over time. So the final chapter in Supercommunicators is about the Harvard study of happiness. And most people are familiar with this. It's the largest longitudinal study that's ever gone on to try and figure out why some people end up being happy as they get older and others don't and successful. And what's interesting about it is that the language that those researchers have used, because it's been a long time now, has changed quite a bit over time. They talk about connection now. They used to talk about love. They like the secret was love. And they didn't mean romantic love.

They meant the love between friends. But the thing that's been consistent is that if you look at why people are happy, they're happy because they have connections with other people. And the connections that we have with other people, it doesn't have to be a huge number of people. The number of people doesn't matter, but the depth of the connection does. And the way that we create deep connections is through conversation.

Right? It's like I love spending time with my wife or not talking to each other when we're watching a movie together, when we're going on a walk. But the times that I remember most are the conversations that we've had. And that's probably true for all of us.

So when I think of like what the good life is, what I think of the good life is, for me at least, is having people around me whom I love, who I'm having conversations with, where we can actually connect with each other. And that gets harder and harder as we get older, right? Because we, we get inside our own heads and we start deciding that some people are worth talking to and others aren't and that person's never going to change. And it doesn't matter what I say to that, to that guy, he's not going to listen. listen to me. But if we try, if we understand how to have different kinds of conversations and to invite people to match us and to match them, then we can have those conversations that make us feel really connected. And if I can do that for the rest of my life, I'm certain I'm going to die happy. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Krista and Will Vanderbier. We'll be talking about how to make the quote, visible rules in your relationship visible so that you can stop walking on eggshells and start

leading together. Be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss the conversation. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young, Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done, so please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting, valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome, but just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what

you both discover to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.