Good Life Project - How to Create Life-changing Friendship Circles | Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

Episode Date: June 22, 2023

Esteemed therapist Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, in her new book Sisterhood Heals: The Transformative Power of Healing in Community, emphasizes the healing power of community to combat feelings of isolation. She discusses creating safe, vulnerable spaces and the importance of platonic relationships for genuine understanding and support. Join us as we delve into themes of loneliness, sisterhood, group dynamics, and the unexpected origins of deep connections.You can find Joy at: Website | Instagram | Therapy for Black Girls podcastIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Kat Vellos about making adult friendships.Check out our offerings & partners: canMy New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I really want people to center platonic relationships in their lives and to really dig deeper into how we can support one another better and really show up for one another, but also allow other people to show up for us. Because I think a lot of us find ourselves as like the go-getters, kind of the one who is checking on other people. But I also really think it's important for us to be able to ask for help and allow ourselves to be in spaces of vulnerability with one another. So have you ever wondered why you sometimes feel so isolated and alone, even among friends and family? Why are we troubled by a seeming paradox, longing for human connection, yet riddled with feelings of loneliness? And is there a way to truly remedy our epidemic of isolation? Well, today we're exploring the transformative power of healing in community with renowned therapist, author, and speaker, Dr. Joy Harden Bradford. So in her new book, Sisterhood Heals, The Transformative Power of Healing in Community, Dr. Joy reveals how

sisterhoods and healing circles can fill the void of loneliness and create a space for growth. And she spent decades helping clients transform pain into liberation through group therapy, empowering black women through therapy for black girls, an organization focused on improving mental health outcomes for black girls and women, and gathering online communities through her popular Three for Thursday sessions. And her really insightful perspective, it draws from both clinical experience, girls and women, and gathering online communities through her popular Three for Thursday sessions. And her really insightful perspective, it draws from both clinical experience treating clients and therapy groups, as well as her personal experience of sisterhood, nourished all the

way back from the time on her grandparents' porch. But she points out that many of the dynamics that she sees in her group sessions, they actually apply to our everyday circles of friends and family and colleagues. With simple awareness and openness, she says we can transform how we connect and experience a profound sense of belonging, which we all need more of these days. In our conversation, Dr. Joy shares lessons from therapy groups on how to build safe psychological containers that unleash the power of vulnerability and connection. She identifies factors critical for healthy sisterhoods from holding space to managing conflict and issues an important invitation to center platonic relationships in our lives

and create communities where we can support, know, and be known by each other. So many of us hunger for real connection beyond the surface levels in modern life. So join us as we dive into loneliness and sisterhood, overcoming barriers within groups, navigating conflict, and the surprising places meaningful connection can emerge. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. swimming or sleeping and it's the fastest charging apple watch getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes the apple watch series 10 available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iphone 10s are later required charge time and actual results will vary mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun

on january 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you and I were in conversation a chunky years back. And wow, has the world changed since then.

As we have this conversation, literally the day before we're recording, maybe a couple of days before, the Surgeon General in the US releases a report entitled Our Epidemic of Loneliness and Isolation. So it would be tempting to point to the last three years, to the pandemic as the source of this. And for sure, I think you would agree, it's deep in the problem. But this problem has been around for a lot longer than the last three years. I'd love your take on it. Yeah, thank you, Jonathan. I saw that as well. And I thought it was very serious. I mean, the Surgeon General has been kind of talking about this for some years now. He has his own book around loneliness and the importance of connecting,

but for him to issue an advisory, to me, indicates this is something that we should be paying attention to. And he even talked about, you know, of course, the past several years, you know, during the pandemic has really made social connection much more difficult. But even before that, I think a lot of people were struggling to either find new connections or maintain the ones that they had. It is something that's really important for us to pay attention to, not just because it feels good to spend time with people who are important to us, but because there are also very practical and tangible implications for our health. So there's research that talks about isolation and disconnection being as lethal as smoking cigarettes daily, you know? And so I

think it is something that we really need to pay attention to how in very large and small ways, we can make sure that we're connecting with one another. Yeah. I mean, the health outcomes, I think, was probably a big surprise for people. And I think people who've been paying attention to some of the research that's unfolded in the last decade have seen it. But to see it all summed up and to realize this is not just about the feeling of loneliness or the feeling of isolation, it has really strongly correlated outcomes in our mental health, in our physical health, in our disease risk. Literally being, I mean, as you just described, literally being lonely has the equivalent effect on our health of, I think it was smoking 15 cigarettes a day, something like this, which is kind of mind-boggling when we think about it. And yet, I feel like it's not something that we center as we devote energy to it in any meaningful way. Is that your take also? Yeah. And it's interesting because I think that there is a lot of attention paid to like romantic relationships, right? Like there are so many lists, so many books, so many articles about, you know, how to find a partner, how to, you know, keep the relationship going.

But I don't think we pay enough attention to those other really important relationships in our lives. So friendships, relationships with coworkers, you know, just those kind of auxiliary connections we have with, you know, people we see when we're in the grocery store or when we're at the post office, like all of those things are really meaningful, but I think we don't pay attention to and don't center those things as much as we really ought to be. Now that makes a lot of sense to me. Curious your take on this also, the distinction between being alone and being lonely, because I think sometimes we confuse the two. Yeah, so I think being alone is, you know, like you may be sitting in your room kind of reading a book and kind of you are just in the presence of yourself. And I think being lonely is a deeper kind of more ominous feeling in a way that there may be people in your life and you may even be sitting in a room full of people but still feel very disconnected and kind of feel like you're off on an island of your own.

Maybe that people don't really get you, that there's really no one in your corner. And I think that that is an important distinction for us to pay attention to. Because I think a lot of times people will have, you know, they'll be a part of teams or they'll be a part of like large groups and still have this very sinking feeling of being lonely. And I think that's something to pay attention to. this comes up on a regular basis. Do you notice when working with clients or patients that loneliness combined with actually being surrounded by people who in theory should make you less alone, can people tip into a tendency of adding shame to loneliness? Oh, absolutely. That's such a beautiful question, John, because I think shame is what really magnifies a lot of concerns in our lives. Like we have this thing going on and then we like make ourselves feel bad because we feel like either we shouldn't have these things

going on or that everybody else is not struggling in the same ways that we are. And I think it is important to pay attention to the fact that, you fact that you don't want to be super critical and judgmental of yourself because you find yourself maybe surrounded by people, but still feeling really disconnected. I don't think that that means there's anything wrong with you. I think it is an invitation to really dig deeper and to kind of figure out, well, what's going on here? Why am I surrounded by so many people and still feeling so disconnected? Yeah. And I know part of your therapeutic approach also for years has been not just individual therapy, but group therapy, which is, and I've always been curious about that. I've never actually had that experience myself. I've always been probably honestly a little bit nervous or terrified of that type of experience as I wonder, I would imagine a lot of people would be, you know, like I'm stepping into a group of strangers and then bury my soul. Yet I know, and we're going to broaden the conversation out, but in a therapeutic setting, I'm curious, what is so compelling about that approach to you? What do you see happening that's different?

Group is so powerful to me. And I think you're right on in that it is terrifying for a lot of people. You know, I mean, even if we think about, you know, just the prospect of individual therapy feels really, really scary for people. So the idea that you would now be sitting with not just one other person, but a group of maybe eight to nine other strangers and talking about some very personal things feels very, very disconcerting. But I think the magic of group is kind of what we've been talking about that very quickly, I think you recognize that you are not alone in any particular thing that you're feeling, right? So this thing that you maybe have been carrying a significant amount of shame around, you realize that maybe

somebody doesn't have that same exact story, but that they feel it in a very similar way or they have, they're able to connect to the feelings that you're experiencing. And I think some of the changes and the breakthroughs that we see happen in group, it takes months, if not years to get to an individual therapy. So I think that there's just a way of being in a room with other people where you're projecting all of your stuff onto them and they're projecting stuff onto you. And it's really in the room with us so that it's easier to kind of talk about. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. The notion that you could potentially

actually move faster towards feeling better in a group context, I almost feel like is a little counterintuitive because I think a lot of times we step into a group or like, well, we only if there are eight people there, I get an eighth of the attention or eighth of the energy. So I'm going to move eight times slower because it's just not all about me. But you're really saying the opposite. Yeah. I mean, because it's not just about you sharing what's going on with you. There's also something called vicarious learning that happens in a group. Right. you, there's also something called vicarious learning that happens in a group, right? So you may not have to share anything, but you're hearing the stories and the experiences of other

people that may be very applicable to your own life. So there's a way that you could be learning and thinking about things differently just by hearing other people's experiences. What you described also is seems like there's almost like a normalizing effect. Like, I would imagine as a therapist, you could say, well, you're not alone in feeling this, but it's got to be different sitting in a room with seven other people and you're like checking the box. Wait, they just said the thing that I'm feeling and they said the thing. So maybe I'm not the weirdo here.

Yeah. And you know, as therapists, sometimes we will use self-disclosure with clients to normalize those kinds of things, right? Like, oh, I found myself in that position too. But I think it is very different when like, it's not the therapist who says it, and it's like the other group members. You know, it's kind of like when your parents tell you something and you're like, oh, whatever. But then your friends tell you and then you believe it. And I think the same kind of thing happens in group that you are able to connect with your peers

and really believe like, oh, wow, I'm not alone in this thing that I've really been struggling with. I think it's also really fascinating because in that context, in any group dynamic, nothing happens without safety. There's got to be psychological safety. And the notion of being able to create psychological safety, I think people think of it, well, if I'm together with a whole bunch of friends, it's just kind of there. I think we'll dive into whether that's actually true or not. But especially in a therapeutic setting, the ability to create psychological safety among total strangers has got to be a really interesting dynamic for you. I would imagine over the years, this is something where you're kind of trying to figure out, how do we create this container more quickly so people can go deeper faster?

Yeah, and I think with group therapy, it kind of starts with the pre-screening, right? So usually when people enter into a therapy group, there's like an interview they do with the therapist ahead of time so that they can ask any questions they have, but so that the therapist can also get a sense of like, are they ready for a group? Does this feel like somebody who's like going to participate, you know, are they going to be able to share space, you know, like all of those kinds of things. And so I think being able to have that interview with the therapist ahead of time really kind of sets them up for, okay, I know what I'm getting into. Everybody has had that same interview.

And so they kind of all come in knowing that. Now that of course doesn't necessarily take away the anxiety of like sitting in a room with strangers, but I do think it makes it so that it is, you realize that the therapist has your best interest at heart and that there are some ground rules that everybody will be kind of paying attention to and abiding by so that the safety of the group can be established. But that doesn't mean that you want to like jump in your first session and like tell everything, though you might, right? Like you might feel compelled to do that, but it is also okay to kind of sit back a little bit, say, pay attention to what's happening to kind of get a sense of where you fit in the group

before you feel comfortable to share. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder also whether if you're coming together for a family holiday around the table, you've got decades of patterns that have been built up, some functional, some dysfunctional, and probably the same with friends. And I wonder if part of the magic of a group therapy dynamic also is that you don't have patterns to try and break. There are no dysfunctional patterns to try and rewire because there just are no patterns yet. So you get to start fresh. Exactly. And that is a part of what makes group effective because there likely are some

dysfunctional patterns. They just haven't shown up in the group because y'all aren't in the group together, right? And so that's probably a part of maybe what's causing you difficulty in your life outside of the group. And that really is what group is. It's really like a microcosm of society where you come without having any prior connections with people, but you still bring all of your stuff, right? So even if you don't come to the table and say, I have assertiveness issues, they are bound to pop up in the group when, you know, we realize that you never like start off group or it's really hard for you to kind of talk about yourself. Somebody is going to call that out. The next step after we talk about what happens in the group is to talk about where else in your life does this kind of pattern show up? And you're right. Like when you're sitting with

your family and friends, of course, there are years of patterns. But in group, those you're kind of starting all fresh, even though you're bringing your stuff with you to the group. Yeah. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So we've been talking about this early, this group dynamic in the context of therapy, but a lot of your work has been to share a lot of the ideas, the strategies, the structures of therapy more publicly to bring people into the conversation and to offer tools and insights to them. I think it's particularly interesting that at this moment in time, on the backside of the Surgeon General's report, the years that we've been through, the feeling of isolation and loneliness, your deep experience with group and therapy, it feels like there's this

moment of convergence where you're bringing it all together and saying, what's the public version of this that we can all create and step into on our own? And you're sort of leading with this notion of a structure around circles and sisterhood. So first take me deeper into what are you actually talking about when we're talking about when you use the word sisterhood, and then when you sort of like think about the construct of circles, what are we actually talking about here? It does feel very kismet, Jonathan, like that all of these things are kind of converging at this time, you know, but I think that there's a reason behind some of that. But, you know, when I talk about sisterhood, I'm specifically talking about the relationships between Black women and not, you know, familiar

way, right? Like your sister is your biological sister, your adopted sister, but the sisterhood that exists kind of simply because we are all Black women. And these relationships that, you know, can be very close, but also just, you know, I see you in the grocery store, I see you in school, and there's like a shared understanding, there's a shared history. And my experience has been that that has been very healing for Black women. And we typically find ourselves in circles. So whether it is as a part of a knitting group or a church group, or if it is your more intimate friend group, it typically happens within a circle. And those dynamics that I just talked about that are happening in group therapy, also happening in our circles. And so it felt important to talk about the things that I've learned as a therapist

and somebody who has practiced group therapy and to help people understand like, hey, these are some of the same dynamics happening in your life. And here's how we can use this to make the relationship stronger. Yeah. It sounds like in your life also, the notion of sisterhood in circles, it's beyond your therapeutic experience. This is something that's been a part of your life just personally from the youngest days. In Fantasic's new Book, you describe being on your grandparents' porch. Take me all the way, because clearly you have really strong visceral memories

of this experience and the role that it's played in just who you are and who you become. It's so funny because I feel like my grandmother's porch is like the origin story for so many of my, you know, personal and professional kind of experiences. But my mom, it grew up, you know, I grew up with six aunties. So my mom has six sisters. And so like this conversation that Black women have like on the porch, kind of, you know, paying attention to who's passing on the streets. And my grandmother's house is right across the street from a church. And so there's always some activity going on. Like, so just people watching and kind of making sense of the world through this lens of like Black women's conversations with one another has always just

been fascinating, but also felt like very familiar and safe to me. And I kind of feel like a lot of that is the foundation of the work that I've done with Therapy for Black Girls. And, you know, kind of thinking about like how Black women make sense of the world and how we do that with one another. And I feel like the foundation of a lot of that is my grandmother's porch. Yeah. You know, we were talking about more generally just a sense of isolation and loneliness and the role that therapy and now sort of like the sense of sisterhood and circles might play in that. But speak to me more directly about the experience of Black women, sort of like in culture now, and how that need is actually different and deeper,

like how being in sisterhood and how coming together in circles actually solves something which is different than other people, other women might be experiencing now. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think we can't divorce ourselves on the backdrop of what the pandemic has been. Do you know, you know, that the experiences of people dying from COVID disproportionately hit Black and Brown communities. And so there's a, there's a large sense of grief. We see lots of layoffs, lots of economic disproportion. And I think what has really happened through the pandemic is a greater sense of responsibility for one another when all of these systems that we thought would be in place to really kind of save us and, you know, to kind of that we could rely on, we have recognized or, you know, greatly or more recognized that they are not functional and that really we only have one another. And so I think, you know, there have been experiences of mutual

aid and like people, you know, asking for help in like paying rent or sending kids to school or, you know, paying for groceries. And I have just seen a lot of activity specifically among Black women really rallying around one another to kind of build our own systems when other systems have not been functional or, you know, available to us. And I think historically that is who Black women have been for one another. You know, I think, you know, just kind of even from slave times, like it has been really other Black women who have carried each other to safety, you know, kind of been responsible for one another. And so I think the iteration we see now in pop culture, just in economics, is really just this

sense of establishing our own systems because we can't rely on traditional ones. And it's interesting, obviously, middle-aged white male. I step into it and what you're describing, I can't experience, I'll never experience in the same way, clearly. And yet the notion of sisterhood, the notion of circles is sort of like the fundamental construct of coming together is deeply resonant for me and is deeply resonant for a lot of people. You walk through some really interesting ideas or like guideposts and keys. Like if we're going to come together and do it in a healthy way, in a functional way, in a supportive way, what really matters? What are the important things to think about and what are the dynamics to expect to unfold?

So I'd love to walk through some of those. You introduced this notion of sisterhood and the four S's. So tell me about the four S's. Yeah. So the four S's of sisterhood are the kind of, I think, when I think about like the guiding themes of like what makes sisterhood so powerful and what makes it so magical, I think in a lot of ways, I think about it in terms of these four S's. So four S's are that sisterhood allows us to be seen. So, you know, like we're not invisible to one another, which I think is really, really important. It allows us to soften. There are so many places in our lives where we have to kind of put on this like really heavy armor to

show up. And in sisterhood and in relationship with one another, we don't have to do that. So it allows us to soften. It allows us to know more about ourselves and allows other people to kind of know us better. So it allows us to have a greater sense of knowing who we are. There's a lot about us. I think just generally, we don't know until it shows up in relationship to one another. And so I think in engaging in deep sisterhood in relationship with one another, we have a greater knowing of ourselves. And then the fourth S is that it allows us to support other people and it allows us to be supported. The way you're describing those four S's, it feels like they're each speaking to a specific pain. If you talk about one of the S's is being

seen, well, then the pain would be not being seen or being invisible to soften. I guess the assumption under that would be that you feel like that outside of that circle, the safety of that circle, that sisterhood, that you've got to take on the persona of being hard, of being tough. A variety of reasons that like are very valid reasons. But there's a pain, there's a cost to that. And that like, there needs to be a place where you've got to be able to drop that to be able to just breathe and be okay. Yeah. I mean, if we go back to our earlier conversation around all of the mental health implications of loneliness, there are some very real mental health implications to this idea that we need to be tough and strong and on all the time. It's just not sustainable. But I think a lot of Black women find themselves in spaces where they

feel like they can't drop that armor. And I'm arguing that with one another, we can create those spaces where we don't have to have that armor on all the time. Which is powerful and curative in a lot of ways. And actually speaking of the word curative, you also introduced this notion of Yalom's curative factors, which I thought was really interesting. Take me through this a bit. Yeah. So, you know, Irving Yalom is like a pioneer in group therapy. And so he has identified 12 different curative factors that really make groups work. So when I talk about wanting to introduce these ideas to the general public, I'm talking about like, here's some things that we know work in therapy groups. And here's how it might also be working in the groups that you find yourselves in with friends, co-workers, and those kinds of things. But I've also added my own curative factors that I think are specific to the work that I've seen with Black women. So Irving Yalom is also not a Black woman.

And so, you know, in a lot of group therapy and a lot of psychology and mental health work, of course, has not included the experiences of Black women. It just wasn't a part of our history. And so it felt important to add to that list factors that I think specifically resonate with Black women and in the work that I've seen also really help groups to be effective. Yeah. It's interesting because a lot of the history of the therapeutic side of mental health has completely excluded, I mean, it's not just mental health, but physical health also. I think the ratio of physicians in medicine is like two to 3%. When you think about building on the work of somebody else to really make it directly resonant and relevant to the communities who you care so deeply about and have been in

service of, I'm curious how you think about, okay, so how do I take this work, acknowledge the value of it, but also acknowledge the fact that it is incomplete and figure out like what's missing from this that actually is critically important? Who's forgotten and what needs to be added to this to actually make it effective? Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I didn't set out to necessarily do that. You know, of course I have a long history of practicing group, but it was really in the process of writing the book and working with my editor that she talked about like, okay, well, there's this list, but like, is this complete in your experience, right? Is there something different that you do with Black women? And I thought like, oh yeah, there is, but I had never thought about like putting it on paper or like outlining like my own way of doing work and doing group with Black women. And so it really

is in the process of writing the book that I thought about, well, what have I seen be different and what kinds of things maybe show up in a group of all Black women that have not shown up in other groups that I've worked on or worked with? And it is through that experience that I found the other four. So you describe a set of sort of spoken and unspoken, you know, like explicit and just assumed guides or like, these are the things that we want to actually explore to create a safe context for sisterhood when we come together. And you break them into four large categories. I'd love to sort of like talk a little bit about each one of those categories. The first one is what you describe as holding space. And I think

a lot of people have probably heard that phrase in a lot of different contexts. I think it comes up in spiritual language a lot these days. And some people also would probably roll their eyes when they hear the phrase holding space. It's like, oh, please, really? But you describe it in a way which is really, it sounds necessary and practical. Yeah, I agree with you. I think there would probably be a lot of eye rolling because it is one of those terms that in some ways has kind of been largely overused. But I don't want us to like lose the spirit of what it means to be able to hold space for someone else. someone and creating a space where they do feel like they can unload, where they do feel like they can share some of these things that they're ashamed of or that they're really struggling with in a way that demonstrates that you're really present and that you're there with them. And not

in a way of like, okay, we got to fix this, right? Because I think that's where we often go. It's like, okay, somebody comes to us with a problem and we immediately jump into problem-solving mode. But can I just sit with you in this really difficult thing? And I think that is really what it means to hold space for someone else. Yeah. I love that context, but it also brings up another thing. And you speak to this actually, which is the notion of, okay, so I get what it means to do that. I get that it's important. Right. And then, so when you're stepping into a conversation, you're not always equipped to be that person to hold space because you may be going through stuff yourself. And this is a point that you make in your writing to really understand your capacity to actually be that person at any given moment. Yeah. And I use the example in the book about as therapists,

we are kind of taught that at certain times there may be certain cases that you may not want to be able to work, may not want to work with, or may not even have the capacity to work with. Right. So in your personal life, if you are struggling with marital problems or going through a divorce, you taking on a client who is contemplating divorce may be too activating for you to be able to like separate your stuff from their stuff, which means that you could be doing harm to them. And so I think when we think about holding space for friends or other people in our lives, we do have to recognize like, okay, do I have the capacity to really be nonjudgmental in this situation? Can I separate my stuff from

their stuff? You know, like, can I really just create a space where they can kind of wade through their own things without me kind of adding my own judgment or my own ideas about what I think they should do in this situation? Yeah. Do you suggest that somebody literally just sort of like ask, like you ask yourself a set of questions when you're being invited into this or inviting somebody else into sort of like a conversation that might be rich and personal and vulnerable, like to literally check in with yourself first and say, am I actually equipped right now to do this in a way that is healthy? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, not only

when we're holding space, I think there are lots of situations that invite us to really kind of do some self-assessment of like, okay, am I the right person for this? Like, can I do this well? And, you know, sometimes you find yourself like holding space for people and not that you like plan to do that. But I think being able to kind of say, you know, if you recognize in the moment, like, hey, this feels really activating for me to being able to tell that to the person, I think also creates a space of safety as opposed to you, you know, being really judgmental because you have not worked through your own things. So I think being honest about where you find yourself really can go a long way.

You know, it's interesting because I wonder if some people, everything I feel like so often circles back to shame, right? I wonder if sometimes we step into a moment like this wanting to be that person who's ready and there and capable. But then if we check in with ourselves, we realize I'm actually not okay being the person to hold this space in this moment in time. And then comes the shame, right? Because it's like, but I should be. I love this person. I should be. They've been there for me in the past. Do you see this come up? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And that word should comes up a lot with shame, right? So whenever you find yourself uttering the should, could, would, that is typically like an invitation, like something's going on there that you are like putting an unnecessary amount

of pressure on yourself to do something that just may not be realistic. But again, I think being able to say to your friend, you know, like, I really want to help you with this, but I am finding, you know, that I don't necessarily have the capacity or I actually don't know how to help you, but I want to be in this with you, you know, because I'm not asking people to be therapists, right? Like I don't want them to even get into the role of being therapists for their friends or other people in their circle, but can you sit with them in it? And then when it's appropriate, talk about like maybe helping them to find a therapist, right. Or giving them other resources where they can find some of that additional support.

Yeah. In that context, also, you talk about the role of vulnerability in these conversations. And it seems like it is like, that is almost like the center of everything. Like without that, nothing happens. So what do you actually, I mean, it's funny because I think vulnerability has become, the word itself has become kind of part of the zeitgeist these days. But I think people use it differently also. When you're talking about vulnerability, what are you actually talking about? I'm really talking about the experience of being kind of emotionally naked with one another, right? Like, can I show you the thing that I'm really, really embarrassed about show you the thing that I'm really,

really embarrassed about or say the thing that I don't feel like anybody else is going to understand and trust that this does not mean the end of the relationship or that you see me differently or that the relationship can continue. And I think only in really being vulnerable with one another are we able to establish some of this trust and safety that allows for relationships to flourish? And it's not a knock on you if you're not at that place. But I think recognizing that, you know, like, I don't know that I can be vulnerable in this relationship.

And what does that mean, right? Like, if you find that it is difficult for you to get to a space where you feel like you can be and disclose, like, you know, much more personal things, does that mean that there's more work for you to do? Is there something about this dynamic that makes it that it would be difficult for you to do that? You know, so I think, again, it's just an invitation for you to dig a little deeper around what is making it difficult for you to go to that place. Yeah. Do you feel like when, in the context of vulnerability, like if you have a group of people who are sharing, right? One person is, you know is using words, okay, getting naked, right? They're going there, they're sharing it.

That people are kind of keeping a hidden tally in the group also. And it's almost like, okay, so this person just buried their soul, this person buried their soul. But that one person over there is nodding along and they will not open up on the same level. And talked about before, like just because everybody else is sharing and being really, really honest doesn't mean that you won't get there, but you may not feel like you're there yet. And it's okay to honor. And it actually is important for you to honor where you find yourself. And I think when you are a part of a group, that is why the psychological safety and trust is important because can you establish a space where we can all go at our own pace, right? So I may feel really comfortable sharing something, but it's also okay

if somebody else is not quite there yet. Now, I think if they never get there, that's a different story. But just because three people shared and one person is not feeling like they want to share doesn't necessarily mean that they're not an active or important part of the group. Yeah. Would you suggest, do you think it would be valuable if, let's say, you're that person, right? Rather than just sitting quiet and taking it in, maybe offering, like being really thoughtful and offering your thoughts, but not sharing yourself, do you think there would be value to basically just say, hey, listen, I realize that I'm actually not sharing on the level that you all are right now. And I'm aware of that.

And I want you to know that I want to, and I hope to, but I'm not feeling okay going there right now. And I want you to know that it's not because I think that in any way, shape, or form, I don't have to, or I'm better in any way. It's just, this is what's going on inside of me. And I wanted you to know, is something like that necessary? Is it constructive or helpful? Or is it-

I think that that is incredibly helpful, especially if that is authentically how you're feeling in the moment, right? Because I think being able to give voice to where you are is still you sharing, right? So if you may not be sharing some super painful thing, but you're sharing in the moment, this is what's going on with me, which I think is also very vulnerable and very transparent. So, you know, I think that there are different levels of sharing. And I think it can be really powerful again, to like talk about what's happening in the room, right? So the fact that you've heard these other people share this thing, and now you're feeling like this pressure to share, but you don't feel comfortable

giving voice to that, I think still lets people know where you are. And it still allows people to feel connected to you because they know that you're paying attention and like you're thinking through where do you fit, right? And you're still being very actively engaged in the group. Yeah. It's so interesting what you're describing then is sort of like you're expressing why you're not being vulnerable is itself an act of vulnerability. Right.

Exactly. Exactly. So fascinating. Right. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.

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Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. It's interesting also, you described that people tend to gravitate towards certain common roles within a group. And you described these four, the leader, the wallflower, firecracker, and peacemaker. Walk me through these really quickly, because clearly we have all either been or been in a group with people who play in those roles. Yeah. And it's important to know that these are not like absolute and you might find yourself kind of between roles and different in different groups, which I think is interesting.

But the wallflower is kind of the person in the group who is mostly quiet and they may not be saying a lot. But when they do speak like everybody pays attention because it tends to be really impactful. The leader of the group is kind of what a leader you would expect is kind of the person who is takes the responsibility for organizing when y'all get together. They probably are the person that hosts and like, you know, all of the details and like the stuff that really makes a group move. The leader typically kind of takes that on. The firecracker is the person who kind of will say the thing that needs to be said, but not always in the tactful kind of ways. But, you know, again, those kinds of things are important for like moving a group forward. And then the peacemaker is the person where, you know,

if a couple of people in the group are not talking, they are the one who's going to try to bring them together. Like, let's talk this out. They're kind of the voice of reason in a group. Yeah, it's interesting. As you described before, you know, part of what's going through my head is I could see how each one of these roles could be expressed in a way that's really healthy for the group and also in a way that's unhealth.

If you take even the peacemaker, it sounds like, well, that's just a really healthy person to be there. Let's resolve this. Let's make peace. But if that impulse is driven by just a profound intolerance for uncertainty or for tough conversations, and you just want it to go away. So maybe there's an impulse to make peace when it's not time to make peace, when things naturally need to be centered and talked about and hard things need to be explored. And maybe we circle around to the peacemaking, but I wonder if there are underlying impulses for each one of these that can be both healthy and unhealthy. Absolutely. Absolutely. And a large part of that chapter that you're talking about really helps people to kind of think about like,

okay, you found yourself in this role. Do you actually enjoy being in this role? Right. And what kind of disadvantages might you experience? Because to your point, you know, the peacemaker might be calling for peace when it really is not time for peace. But I think one of the other things that the peacemaker may find themselves doing is like trying to make peace with other people because they're avoiding their own stuff, right? So there's all, you know, kinds of like hidden kinds of, you know, things that you may want to pay attention to because of the role you find yourself in the group. What you're describing also, it's interesting because you're taking these dynamics from sort of a controlled group therapy and saying, like, let me share a whole bunch of guideposts and invitations and offerings out so that

to create sisterhoods and circles that are functional and healthy. But it occurs to me, like, you've got to be relatively self-aware to keep the dynamic healthy in a group. Because if you're not aware of your own inner thoughts and workings and feelings, let alone the group dynamic, it's hard to notice what is and isn't happening and what's real and what's not real and respond to it in a functional way. And isn't that the importance of doing our work for any relationship? Yeah, right. I think that there is a level of self-awarenessness. Then of course, you know, not everybody has, but I think to make most relationships work and kind of make them function, it really does require us to kind of

be present and aware of like what we're bringing to the table and like how we get activated by certain things and whether we shut down or whether we, you know, kind of go too far. Like I think all relationships call that from us. And so again, you know, the goal is not for people to kind of run their own mini therapy groups. It really is like, okay, how can you just be more aware of these things and pay attention to the fact that these dynamics exist and use them to your advantage to, you know, kind of help everybody out. And part of the awareness also is you probably start to become aware at different points of dysfunction or conflict. One of the big four topics is barriers and conflicts within a group, right? One of the things you talk about is subgrouping, which I thought was really interesting.

Take me there more. Yeah. So in therapy groups, a lot of times there are rules around like not getting together outside of the group because all kinds of things can happen, right? So do other members get jealous because now you're spending a lot of time with this person or are you working through your own stuff kind of when y'all are meeting for lunch as opposed to bringing it to the group and then maybe you end up leaving the group. And so when we think about our own groups,

we need to think about like, of course we most often have separate relationships with the other people in our circles, right? Like maybe somebody you go to church with, somebody you work with, like some of that naturally happens. But it is important to think about how those kind of separate relationships impact the larger circle. And, you know, it's maybe impossible to stop it from happening, but it is important to

pay attention to like the health of the entire circle and how that's being impacted by the individual relationships that the members have. Yeah. And because you're not going to stop seeing a friend on the side if you're going to lunch with them on a regular basis. Right. You know, because that's what deepening a friendship individually is about. But at the same time, yeah, I do get that, you know, keeping in mind the larger context, if you're committed to sort of like meeting with a larger group on a regular basis, how is it going to affect that and having a respectful approach to that? One of the other things that you bring up as a potential source for conflict is this notion of help rejecting, which I think is fascinating. I have seen this unfold in a lot of different

contexts actually, and it can lead to so much frustration. Talk to me more about what this actually is and how it tends to unfold and what we can do about it. So the term is like a help rejecting complainer, right? So these are the people who are often in our circles who solicit lots of feedback. There maybe is always a crisis going on in their lives and the group rallies around them to give them a lot of feedback and then they don't take the feedback. And so the cycle just kind of repeats itself. And I think that that can be really frustrating for groups because it feels like there's often a lot of energy expended for this one person without necessarily a lot of payoff for the

group. And so I think it is important to be able to gently call that out for people when we recognize that there's somebody in our circle who's doing that. And to be mindful of our own boundaries, right? Like if you find yourself like really exhausted because you're always giving feedback and advice to this person, that may be a signal to you that your boundaries are maybe a little too loose there and you need to kind of, you know, tighten up in terms of like the energy and the time and other resources that you're giving to this person. So that brings up another fascination of mine around this context, which is that,

I guess, depending on sort of like the school of therapy and what your approach is, and this extends to the domain of coaching also, a lot of the teaching is, you know, you hold space and then your job is actually not to provide it, but it's to listen, it's to reflect, it's to mirror, and then it's to ask intelligent questions, you know, which would let somebody else sort of come to their own revelation. And I get that in a therapeutic context because you're trained to do that. Like you've practiced this thousands and thousands of hours. And even if you're thinking inside of your head, I've talked to some friends who are therapists in all different schools, and they're like, I kind of know. I want to tell them exactly what to do, but I know that's not the right thing to do here. In a friend context, how do you navigate that? Because actually saying

here's what to do or do this might not be the most helpful thing to say rather than just saying like, tell me more, asking questions. Yeah. And I think that that's an important skill for us to have as therapists, but I think it's an important skill for us to have as people in relationships also, because again, every situation does not warrant jumping into problem solving mode. Sometimes people do just want to have someone sit with them in whatever is going on. And the other thing that happens when we rush in too quickly with like answers and solutions is that the person doesn't ever develop like their own skill around decision making, right? Or kind of taking the ownership of a decision. Sometimes it is just parenting

what we said to them. And so I think we also have to think about it in terms of like, okay, if I really want to help this person, it may be helpful for me not to always rush in with answers and to allow them to kind of flex that muscle or build that muscle of making relations or making decisions for themselves. And maybe they want to check in with you about it. Like, hey, this is what I'm thinking. Do you think this sounds good? Which is totally fine. But rushing in with answers, I think also inhibits them from developing that skill for themselves. Yeah. I would imagine if you don't develop that skill for yourselves, you never get that sense of esteem that comes from saying, oh, actually I figured this out.

I figured it out. And I'm capable of figuring it out. I don't have to constantly ask everybody else to figure it out for me. Exactly. Exactly. One of the other things I thought was really interesting that you share is important to think about it, a source of potential conflict. It is the notion of differences in values, which I thought was really interesting because you could come together as a group and share a lot of history, but sharing history doesn't necessarily mean that you see the world the same way or that you share the same values. Talk to me more about how this shows up. Yeah, and I think that there are some things that are like just differences in preferences, right?

Like whether you like Coke and I like Pepsi, you know, like those kinds of things. But what I'm really talking about is like, are you fundamentally opposed to like who I am in the world, right? Or how I show up. And we saw this a lot during the pandemic. I think a lot of friend groups were shaken up around decisions to get the vaccine or not get the vaccine, decisions to mask or not mask. People who, you know, had a higher risk tolerance and were kind of still out doing things and other people who had a lower risk tolerance.

And I don't think people really understood like how to navigate that, because in a lot of ways, those kinds of things had not entered friendship groups before. And so I think the pandemic really gave people a chance to kind of explore values and like, what does this really mean? And so I think, you know, sometimes we get to a place where we realize like a friendship may not be able to continue because we just fundamentally see the world differently in a way that clashes like with my humanity. And I think, again, the pandemic really brought that to light for a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, that really flows into a conversation that you have around life cycles with sisterhoods, with circles, with friendships, and that some are meant to last for long times and some are not. And sometimes they end, sometimes an individual friendship ends, sometimes an entire sisterhood,

like a circle dynamic ends, maybe even after years. And there's a real grief experience that happens when that comes to be. Yeah. And I think a lot of times we don't think about the grief related to a friendship because it's not somebody dying, right? I think a lot of times we don't think about like the grief related to a friendship because it's not somebody dying, right? Like I think a lot of our society really only has rituals for the death of someone, but there's grief we experience because of lots of different things. And so I talk about this sense of disenfranchised grief, which means that people don't take it as seriously when you lose a friendship because they feel like, oh, you have other friends or there are other people. And so then you're left with like this real sense of grief, just as if someone had died,

but like nobody's really paying attention to it or they're not giving it the same credence. And so then you're just kind of left with all of these feelings and not sure how to make sense of it. And so I think when that happens, it is really important to find somebody who's not going to make you feel ashamed because a friendship has ended and to, you know, to be able to find a supportive community of people who will allow you to talk through, you know, whatever you're experiencing for as long as you need to. What about the opposite problem, which is sort of like when something kind of really needs to end, but, you know, when enough of the things

that brought you together in the beginning, you know, like they're just not there anymore. Yet nobody wants to be the person because that comes up, you know, and that I think is really dicey also. How do you navigate those moments? I think it is really hard for us as a society to say goodbyes. You know, so I talk about this in the book, like it is, but it is really important to say goodbye, to like offer yourself some sense of closure to relationships that have been important, even if you know that they are not going to continue.

And so I think the tendency or, you know, some people's kind of inclination would be to just like stop calling or to like just kind of slowly ghost out of the picture. But in talking with lots of women, that kind of ghosting experience is actually far more painful than like somebody saying, you know, like, okay, this is kind of, we've come to the end of the road. And so I think if you find yourself in a situation where you know you're going to have to end a friendship, it is the kindest thing for both you and the person to be able to actually say to them, whatever it is going on, right? Like, I don't feel like we see the world the same or, you know, I feel like I've been betrayed or whatever it is that's leading you to end the friendship. It's important to be able to say that to the person so that they're not left kind of making up their own stories about what happened and like what could have been different. Yeah. I feel like ghosting to a certain extent has been normalized, you know, through, you know, because so many of us stay in touch and stay in relationship on a regular basis through these asynchronous devices where like, we're not actually in conversation in real time. We're just trading messages at different times. And it's sort

of, you know, it makes it easier to just kind of vanish into the background because it feels like there's a way to do it. That's more socially acceptable, but I think it's not more socially acceptable. It may just be easier, but the pain, it sounds like what you're describing may even be worse. Yeah. I think a lot of people, and you know, I've been seeing even more and more conversations talking about like the pain of a friendship breakup especially when they were ghosted because again it just leaves you with all these questions and like wondering like what did you do wrong like did i overstep like you know it's just it just is a barrel of questions um and it is never easy to end a relationship like

nobody wants to have that awkward conversation but again i think you owe it to yourself and to this person who at one point did mean a lot to you to offer them some kind of resolution and letting them know this is where you're standing, you're moving on. Yeah. And that kind of brings us, let's circle all the way back around. We can't talk about ending relationships without also talking about how do we actually start them? And I think that is something that so many struggle with now. It's like, how do we actually start them? How do we, and I think that is something that so many struggle with now. It's like, how do you actually find those new people in the context you're talking about? Like, how do you find new black and brown women to bring into a sisterhood or to bring into a circle?

Like more broadly, how does any grownup do that? Because as a kid, we're just in these constructs that automatically bring us together in community with people who we share history or likeness with. But as adults, it's almost like we now have to proactively go and do these things. And you speak to this in a bunch of different ways in the book. But share some thoughts here because I think this is not just intuitive for most people. It is not. It's not. And you're right.

When we're young, we're in class with all these kids. And so these become our friends, right? And, you know, once you're older and not in college settings or education settings, it's just much more difficult. And so one thing that I suggest is to pay attention to the people who are kind of in the background of your life who could actually become maybe more of the foreground. So is there somebody that you kind of see in your Pilates class all the time and y'all exchange pleasantries, but it doesn't go much further? Or is there a mom that you see in the carpool line that, you know, you kind of friendly with, but it doesn't go any further than carpool?

And thinking about like, okay, is there an opportunity to make some of those relationships a little bit more formal, a little bit more intense? So can you say like, hey, do you want to grab a smoothie after Pilates? Or like, oh, we should really grab lunch before we head to the carpool line so that you can take some steps to maybe get to know these people a little better, but not necessarily with the expectation that they're going to be like lifelong friends. You're just kind of putting yourself out there to, you know, kind of widen your circle of people who could become close to you. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And I think the notion of also finding places where somebody else has already done the work of gathering the people who you want to be in community with. I mean, this is exactly what you've done for years, right? With Therapy for Black Girls, with Three for Thursdays, you've created this incredible space. Tell me more about the space and how people show up in it. Yeah. So Three for Thursdays is this thing I

started, I think before the pandemic, but definitely became much more intense during the pandemic. But every Thursday at 12 noon, we jump on Zoom so people can sign up for the Zoom link. It's a free session to participate in. And we talk about some particular topic. So we may talk and I typically have three points to share for people. So three ways to be more assertive, three things to think about as you think about spring cleaning, like whatever the topic is, I kind of pick random topics, but people can also suggest topics. And I share the three points.

And then we have conversation around, you know, what resonates for people? How have they seen this work in their own lives? But people also will like give us updates off previous sessions, or there will be questions unrelated to the topic that people will have. And so it really has just become a very, very cool space for women to kind of get practice, because the women don't necessarily know one another beyond getting together every Thursday, but certainly some of them have gotten closer because they kind of continue to see each other in this space.

And so I think it is just a great example of the kinds of spaces where you can find people who can become a part of your circle. Yeah, I love that also, because we're talking about gathering through technology. And I think a lot of people have the reason, even though we've all been sort of trained to be much more comfortable with it over the last three years, there's still a lot of resistance. I think there's

a lot of assumptions that maybe like that's not as real. And certainly it's not the same as being in person with people. But I think like what you've created, this like just stunning global community, it's proof positive that really deep, rich, powerful connections can happen in the virtual space. Don't write it off. Exactly. Yeah, I do want people to make sure they're paying attention to being open to digital kinds of connections because you're right, like it may not be exactly the same, but I think that there are some very powerful connections and very great relationships that can be formed even when you connect in digital spaces.

Because it really is about the consistency. It's about like peeling back the layers, like all of those things are important and those things can happen digitally. Yeah. So as we start to wrap our conversation, zooming the lens out a little bit, what's your big invitation? What's your big hope for people as they start to think about all the ideas that you've been offering? I really want people to center platonic relationships in their lives and to really

dig deeper into how we can support one another better and really show up for one another, but also allow other people to show up for us. Because I think a lot of us find ourselves as like the go-getters, I mean, kind of the one who is checking on other people. But I also really think it's important for us to be able to ask for help and allow ourselves to be in spaces of vulnerability with one another. So coming full circle, I've asked you this very same question, but it's a chunk of years ago now and the world has changed and we've all changed. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life means to be intentional and purposeful about establishing meaningful connections with other people. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the

conversation that we had with Kat Veloz about making adult friendships. You'll find a link to Kat's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about

what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot?

Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.