Good Life Project - How to Expand Time & Increase Happiness | Cassie Holmes

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Are you constantly feeling overwhelmed, with too many things to do and never enough time? Discover research-backed strategies to overcome the chronic state of "time poverty" from award-winning professor Cassie Holmes. Her fascinating work at the intersection of time and happiness, explored in her new book Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most, gives you a blueprint to reframe your relationship with time. Learn practical ways to savor life's joyful moments, nurture your closest relationships, and align your limited hours with what's genuinely meaningful - paving the path to maximum fulfillment.You can find Cassie at: Website | LinkedIn | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Tim Ferriss about being present and intentional in life.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The single biggest predictor of life satisfaction, it was not fortune. It was having strong, supportive relationships, whether that came in the form of family or friends that feel like family. As we're spending the hours of our week, how do we engage to cultivate those relationships such that they are strong and supportive and that they have the longevity. So it's absolutely worth the time. It's just making sure that at the end of the days, at the end of the weeks, at the end of the years, at the end of your life, you have those strong, supportive relationships. And the feeling like we actually have enough of it to do the things that really matter is everything.

Problem is, according to a study by Harvard Business School that analyzed two and a half million Americans, many of us actually experienced this thing called time poverty, or this chronic feeling of just having too many things to do and never enough time to do them. And I think most of us are emerging from the last few years with this newfound awareness and appreciation for how we spend our time and a desire to make our time here on earth really count. Time is precious and it's also our one non-renewable resource. I mean, when a dollar is spent, you can earn another. When a day is gone, it is gone for life. So how can we move forward, making sure we live more intentionally and spend our time wisely so that we won't have regrets in the end, or at least fewer regrets maybe? My guest today,

Cassie Holmes, has done incredible research on making the most of the world's most precious resource, time. And I am super excited to tackle these big questions and ideas in this important and timely conversation with her. So Cassie is an award-winning professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management. And her fascinating work on the intersection of time and happiness has been widely published in leading academic journals and featured in places like NPR, The Economist, New York Times. Her new book, Happier Hour, How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most, it gives readers a blueprint to reframing their time and overcoming time poverty. And in our conversation today, you'll hear us dive deeper into this notion of having too much to do and too little time and how to distinguish between what matters and what

doesn't when it comes to our time and what to consider and do if you want to lead a more intentional and happier life. How do we utilize the time we do have to make it feel more expansive and really help ensure that we are allocating it towards the things that genuinely will fill us up. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. I'm excited to dive in. The topic of your work is something that's been a deep fascination of mine for a long time. I run a lot of my own experiments. I'm actually, we're having this conversation.

I am two days post a one month creative sabbatical. So at some point that may find its way into this conversation as well, because a lot of the reasons that I did it and what I was looking to accomplish and then what actually happened ties in, I think a lot with the topic of your recent book and of your work. So we'll maybe dive into that a little bit and share as needed, but. I'm excited to hear. Yeah. You like that old phrase, like we make plans and God laughs. That was basically the month. But yeah, I mean, a lot of interesting stuff happened. The notion of how we spend our time is deeply fascinating to me

because, and you write about this and speak about this, it is the one resource that I'm aware of at least where it's perpetually depleting and non-renewable. Almost anything else I think of, you can think of, okay, so there's a way to refill the tank, but not time. Am I wrong with that? No, it's absolutely right. And that's why it is so critical to be thoughtful in how we invest it and spend it along the way, because time that you have spent that just passes by without thought, without intention, and really, actually, it comes to that experience of it being wasted is so painful because it is this resource. Not only is it ever passing and depleting, but it is the substance of our life. And those hours that we're spending

add up to the days, the weeks, the months, the years, and ultimately the life that we're living. And so when these hours pass by with it feeling like it was wasted in whatever sort of form that comes, whether it was spent on something that wasn't fulfilling, whether it was spent on something that didn't come to fruition, that you were investing something that actually didn't pan out, it is absolutely painful. And there is actually research that suggests that wasted time is much more painful than wasted money. And I think for the exact reason that you mentioned, because it is forever lost, it can't be regained. Yeah. I mean, when you talk about regrets, I know you talk about this to a certain extent. I know you've done work around regrets. Years ago, we had Bronnie Ware on the podcast who's, you know, like five regrets of the dying became this very early viral phenomenon. Dan Pink's recent book where he did some really fascinating work on regret. But this notion of time spent poorly or wasted as a source of regret later in life, especially. It just seems like there's such a

profound connection there. And regret is one of these things that just kind of lingers on us. It's like this weight that just kind of walks with us through life. And I feel like the later we get into it, the more it weighs on us because we realize we've got less runway ahead of us to actually try and figure out how to quote,, make up for it, if it's even possible. And it's interesting because we don't think about it until later, sort of this avoiding regret as being a motivator or driver, until we're actually thinking about life regrets at the end of it all, because that's ultimately the most painful, right? If at the end of this life where you absolutely don't have an opportunity to fix it, then that's something that people are very aware of trying to avoid. But I would also say that the pandemic has taught us by showing us just how fragile life is, has made all of us, irrespective of age, much more wary of regret and much more in tune with how should I be spending and investing

so that, and who knows when that end will come, so that I don't feel the regret. And what's interesting, and I talk about this in the book, is based off of others' research, that the type of regret that shows up is really interesting. Like the ones that we're really looking to avoid are those ones that are so sneaky of seeping into how we invest our time. So there's two forms of regret. There's the regrets from acts of commission where you do something bad and you wish you hadn't. Like I said something, I wish I hadn't said it. I took that job and it didn't turn out right. I wish I hadn't. And they're painful, but because they're painful and it's very clear, oh, I wish I hadn't

said something, then we fix it. We fix it. So while it initially very acute, we fix it along the way. But the other form of regret, the acts of omission that I didn't say something and I wish I had. I wish I had pursued that job and I didn't. That's sort of more insidious because there isn't something so acute to sort of fix it. And those are the regrets that tend to show up at the end of life. And those are the ones that I really hope that folks are thinking about. And that's the intent of my book and my work overall, is how do we make it so that people don't regret that thing? If only I had paid attention along the way to those relationships, if only I had invested in those things that really matter to me, if only I had said, thank you. If only I had said,

sorry, it's that, that I am really hoping to help people avoid by, and interestingly, in my work, while very potentially sad of thinking about the end and thinking about the sort of finite nature of our lives, it's from recognizing that we actually spend our hours better. We are more intentional and not only in selecting the activities that we engage in, but also how we engage during those times. And so we can talk about that absolutely because I think it's so important to take this broader perspective of time, thinking about years in life overall to inform how we spend our upcoming hours. So agree with this. I think as you mentioned, the last couple of years have brought so many people

who are just kind of like going about things, like life is happening. It's kind of we're tumbling forward and like the days are full without even really thinking about it and reacquainting us all with the notion that, oh, like this actually could end at any given time. And I think there's such a cultural bias against letting your mind go there. It's sort of like in Western culture, it's like, no, no, no, no. Don't ever think about that thing that is the one guaranteed event that will happen in your life after the first guaranteed event of your birth. Don't ever talk about it. Don't think about it. Only plan for it when you're at a certain point in life and think about it only in terms of what happens if

there are assets. But don't actually think about the fact that at any given moment in time, we're not promised anything. We're not promised tomorrow. And I feel like you're so spot on in that the last couple of years, one of the deeper changes has been people thinking about this. People either going through their own scare and making it through or losing people very close to them and their family. I mean, I have a friend who lost her dad and her brother within a matter of a couple of months together. And how can it not, if you were a sentient being, even paying the slightest amount of attention, how can it not make you think, huh, this could happen anytime. And with whatever time

I do have, how do I use it wisely? Yeah. To your point, I think there is a lot of, and I also do agree that it is somewhat cultural, fear of thinking about death. It's so taboo. And I think that that is the book is based off of a course that I developed and have been teaching to our MBAs, our executive MBAs. And I have them do these assignments. One, a very poignant assignment that I have them do towards the end of class is actually to write their own eulogy. So projecting forward, assuming that they do live a long life, how do they want to be remembered? What do they want people to say about them? What life do they want to live? And interestingly, one of my students came to me because these are

assignments. So there's a grade attached and she's a super conscientious student. She's like, I'm really sorry, professor. I can't do this assignment. Thinking about my death just invokes so much anxiety. I'm going to forfeit the grade. And I was like, don't worry. Let me reframe the assignment. Write about the life you want to live. Because honestly, that's the exact same assignment. And it's such a powerful one because what it does is it by sort of thinking towards the end of your life and then thinking back as like, okay, what's that life that I want to have lived and be remembered by? What impact do I want to have on other people's hearts and minds? How do I want to exist in people's memories? What's my legacy? What that really does is it's not actually an exercise about death. It's absolutely an

exercise about life and what life do you want to live. And from that is born a lot of clarity as to what matters, like what ultimately matters, taking you out of the sense of urgency and reaction in the day-to-day and makes you think about these bigger goals. What is that purpose? What are those things that I ultimately want to achieve? What are those? And oftentimes, it's actually the relationships that we have. How do I want to show up in the world? And from that, it's actually really empowering because it is this sort of kick in the pants of like, well, actually that life that you're talking about and thinking sort of kick in the pants of like, well, actually that life that you're talking about and thinking sort of decades sort of projecting forward, that's the life that you're already living. So don't wait, start living it. And the research shows as well as seeing it again and again,

as folks do these types of exercises, that it is so impactful and it makes it so that we don't waste. It makes it so that we won't look back and feel that regret. Yeah, no, so great. I've actually done that exercise myself and literally sobbing while writing. And it really, it just brings you back to what, like what actually matters to me. And that's so fascinating too, because you're doing this with students, like often MPA students,

where the mindset is, okay, entirely focused on GPA, like the sort of like instant, immediate temporal indicators of quote, capital S success. You know, it's your GPA, it's your rank, it's, you, it's how well connected, how can I land the perfect summer internship so that I get the offer to come back

immediately after and how do I just step in and start building my power and my career. Which okay, these things matter. But when you zoom the lens out across a longer time horizon of your life and you can place them in perspective. I would imagine that with certain students, there's a huge perspective shift, even in the moment, to say, okay, so I still want to do well in school. But big picture, there's something much – this is not the end-all, be-all. Yeah. But also, and it's not to belittle some of their immediate concerns of like what internship or what job. Yeah, 100%.

But it actually even clarifies that it's not the sort of general notion of like, quote unquote, success, which is so hard to strive for because it's so multidimensional. And not all of those dimensions actually matter to each individual person. But when you realize like, what life do I want to live? Then it's actually very clear. It's like, oh, that's the internship that for me will sort of be that first step in this, you know, in fulfilling my purpose, or that's the particular job that I really want. And it's so helpful because then it helps my students sort of not go with the flow of like, oh, everyone is applying for consulting. I should too. Or everyone is looking for that finance job to get the big bucks. I should do that too. Instead, it's like, all right, I know vaguely still, you don't know the exact stones to step on to get there, but at least you have a very clear notion of what your goal is

and therefore type of stone to look for. And it will be likely very different than when your classmates next stone. So I think that it helps in so many ways. It sort of helps folks shed that competitiveness with each other because not all of them have the same goal. It makes them much sort of clearer in the sources of motivation and intrinsic motivation that will be satisfying to them and feel rewarding to them. And it also takes away from that clarity. It minimizes the sort of fear of like, oh my gosh, I need to be successful. And it's scary if you don't really quite know when or how to get there, right? But it's much more assuring. And also, it takes away that pressure of like, it's okay. That first job out of school isn't the end-all be-all. There's actually

going to be lots of jobs along the way that form your career, that form your path. And so also from that, relieving that pressure that every decision is like that, you know, so like gonna determine the course of your life. It's like, okay, there's actually some room for change along the way. Yeah, no, I love that. And we'll be right back

after a word from our sponsors. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. It's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So this has become a big focus for you in terms of your profession in academia. But a lot of this, it sounds like started in a very personal way. And like in the world of academia itself has this sort of like prescribed path to quote success, you know, like you get in, you start out and you publish to a lot of these ideas was your own sort of like re-examination of like, what exactly is happening here in my life? Totally. And thank gosh, because it totally determined actually my research agenda, which has, again, like been so fulfilling in terms of like relating it to my students. Like once you figure out like

what's really driving you and you're getting there and you're, you're having these little like clear indicators that like, oh, you're actually get like having the impact that you personally, that matters to you. Then it's like, ah, that's, that's satisfying. So yes, so it started and I share this story to open the book, which was a very personal story, as well as I think relates to so many people and resonates. And this was when I was earlier in my career as an assistant professor at Wharton where absolutely I was driven to publish as much as I could, give the important talks to show that I was having an impact in my field. And in this particular case, I remember this, Dave, so vividly. So I was living in Philly at Wharton and I had gone up to New York that day to give a talk at Columbia's business school

about my latest research. And this talk was sandwiched within these back-to-back meetings. And then I didn't even have time to eat lunch because my talk was during lunchtime. So the audience was eating lunch. And then I'm whisked to to the medium, like eating like a sandwich on the way with crumbs, whatever. Like it was just like rushing. And then I went to this colleague dinner and then rushing to the train station to get the very last train that would get me home to my four-month-old and my husband who were asleep at that point in Philly because it was late. And I did make the train that night, but I remember so vividly as I was sitting in the seat and I was sort of slumped over, I had my coat pulled up over me like a blanket and I was just so depleted and exhausted and sort of felt broken. And as I was looking out the window, as the darkness was rushing by, I was like,

I don't know if I can keep up between the pressures of work, wanting to be a good parent, wanting to be a good partner, wanting to be a good friend, the never-ending pile of chores. There simply were not enough hours in the day to do it all, let alone to do any of it well, and let alone to enjoy any of it along the way. And I was like, I want more time, not just so that I could get more done, but really I wanted more time so that I could slow down and actually experience life as it was happening. I wanted more time so that I could slow down and actually experience life as it was happening. I wanted more time so that it wasn't all passing by in a blur.

And we talked about regret so that at the end, I wouldn't feel intense regret for my life having passed in that blur. And I know now that from my research, I was suffering from what we refer to as time poverty, this acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. And it is prevalent. It's not just me. We've conducted a national poll that showed that nearly half of Americans feel time poor. They don't have enough time to do all that they set out to do. And though moms tend to feel more time poor than dads and working parents tend to feel particularly impoverished, you see that all types of people

report feeling this way, even those without kids, those who aren't working for pay. And part of it is cultural, but part of it is also just that we are driven to produce and to get things done. And maybe that's where the cultural notion comes in. It's like this rush towards efficiency. And that often is what sort of time management is like, how do you get as much done as possible in the shortest amount of time? It's all about checking stuff off the list, which doesn't account for your experience during those activities, like your experience and the time that you're actually spending along the way. And so at that point, I was like, oh my gosh, the solution to having more time is to quit. And I very much considered quitting my job,

not very seriously, but the daydream was like, and then I'll move to Sunny Island somewhere and have all the hours of my day to spend exactly how I wanted. Because you're just sort of imagining how you feel on that beach vacation. It's like, if only I had that always, then surely I would be happier. And actually, I did not quit. And I went on to test, are people who have a whole lot more time, are they happier? And this is work with some of my colleagues, Hal Hirschfield and Marissa Sharif, to look at what is actually the relationship between the amount of discretionary time people have and their happiness.

And we conducted a bunch of studies, including analyzing data from the American Time Use Survey, which looks at for tens of thousands of working and non-working Americans, how they spent a regular day. And from that, we calculated how much time they spent on discretionary activities. And the pattern of results we found was consistent across our studies, which basically shows an upside down U-shape. So happiness goes down on both ends of the spectrum. That is too little discretionary time is bad. That is that feeling of being time poor. That is my experience on the train that night. I just didn't have the hours in the day to spend in ways that I wanted. And with that higher level of stress, you see this lower happiness and greater

dissatisfaction. But what was interesting was the other end of the spectrum where it also went down. There's such thing as having too much available time. And this is important to note for those of us in those crazy, hectic days of like, the answer actually is not to quit everything and move to that sunny island. Because, and the digging into our studies, we're like, why? Why is it that there is such thing as having too much time? And what it turns out is that we are driven to be productive. That is spending all the hours of our days with nothing to show for them. And this isn't a day on vacation. This is your regular life. It undermines our sense of purpose. We are averse to being idle.

And with having too much discretionary time and spending in ways that it's not clear that it's worthwhile, that it's then actually it starts to feel like a waste. And there you get the dissatisfaction. Now, notably, it's not only paid work that are activities that contribute to our sense of purpose, also volunteer work, engaging in hobbies that enrich us and build us and help us grow and learn. But I recognize for me, my work was a great source of purpose. And so I did not quit and instead actually shifted my research to figure out, and actually importantly also in the pattern of results, it goes down on both sides of that upside down U, but the top is actually flat. There's quite a wide range in which it's flat.

There's no relationship between the amount of discretionary time you have and your happiness. And what that suggests is that except at the extremes, it's not about how much time you have available. It's really about how you invest that time. So for happiness, it's not about being time rich. It's about making the time that you're spending rich. And that is what I have then been doing in my research and what I'm relaying sort of developed into the course. now in the book to help people based off of the results, the empirics, how do we invest the hours of our days so that that time feels rich, that time feels worthwhile, so that at the end of the day or at the end of the week, looking back, it's not that depleted, exhausted, unhappy state that I felt on the train. And instead, even if it's actually looking back my research questions and agenda. And then also I've been applying it. What I find, I live and I have absolutely benefited from it. And I can say that still, actually, to this day, I still have that pressureful job. I'm an academic, no longer

an assistant professor. I've sort of made it through the ranks and I'm a full professor, but I still have that pressure full job. I still have now not only one baby, but now two kids. I still have my partner whom I want to cultivate that relationship. I still have the friendships. I still have the never-ending pile of chores. So the context actually hasn't changed, but I feel fulfilled and satisfied because I am applying these insights to spend and invest the hours of my day on activities that feel worthwhile. When I'm spending that time, I'm in it. I continue to have to remind myself because I'm like all of us, I'm a doer. So it's very easy. And I have the tendency, like so many, to be thinking about what's next. I'm planning for this week is Thanksgiving and I am hosting my entire family. So I'm thinking about like, okay, when do we get the groceries? When do I

set the table? When do I like all of that stuff? But if I'm always thinking about what's next, not only does it pull me out of this conversation, but when I'm with my family, you know, like this is a, such a wonderful time and opportunity to spend with my family who lives across the country. And here we are all in the house together. But if I'm in my head planning for and coordinating for and thinking about what's next, then I'm not, I'm missing these moments that I had been planning for. Yeah. It's like that double-edged sword. It's like, I often wonder if that wiring that so many of us have for productivity is, it's part pathology and part blessing. It's like, it keeps us moving forward. It keeps us thinking about like, what's that thing that's

going to give me a sense of purpose that I can devote myself to and make manifest in the world. And at the other time, like you were just sharing, it so often pulls us out of the present. It keeps us so future oriented. That's sort of like so many of us have so much trouble just taking a beat in any given moment and being like, oh, this is what's happening. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm thinking. Right here in the here and now. And this is the only moment where I can live, where I can actually feel and be. Use the word happiness a number of times as sort of like a basis of your research. And I have seen the word happiness and subjective well-being used sometimes to mean different things, used to mean the same thing. My understanding has always been that, well, number one, it's not the easiest thing to measure these different things. And there are a lot of different definitions for them.

But I've looked at happiness as the snapshot and subjective well-being as the movie. Where it's like you can ask somebody in their 80s, are you satisfied with your life? Are you satisfied with the way your life has gone? Has it been meaningful to you? And they'll say, yes, it has been a deeply satisfying life. But that same life could also have been deeply unhappy. There could have been tremendous sustained loss or pain or suffering or illness or grief. So if on balance, you looked at that life and asked them like, on balance, were you happier? Were you more often happy or not happy? That very same person who said I've lived a deeply good and meaningful life may well also tell you it was less happy than happy.

And I've always been fascinated by the distinction between the two of those and the often conflation of the two of those. I'm curious what your take is on that. Yeah. And I'm glad you asked because as you noted, when people use these terms, oftentimes they're using it to sort of encapsulate different things or to relay different things. And so to be clear, when I'm using the term happiness, I am referring to what the literature refers to as subjective well-being. So that includes both that feeling in our days. So how much joy, positive emotion versus negative emotion do we feel in our moments? But it also includes this evaluative component. How satisfied are you about your days, about your life overall? And also meaning is yet another construct, which is sort of also evaluative. It

encapsulates a broader, it's more cognitive, right? It's like finding the meaning, the source of making sense of in about the time that you have spent and about your life overall. Now, yes, you can pull out. So sometimes people refer to happiness just as that emotional, like how I feel in the moment, and then contrast it with a sense of satisfaction about. And yes, there are some instances where you can feel positive in the moment, but it doesn't then translate into a general sense of satisfaction. But if you actually look at the data, they are far more related than we think. So we actually analyze data, global data, looking at tens of hundreds of thousands of actually data points of expressions of happiness and the extent to which people feel a sense of meaning in their life.

And we see that they're so highly correlated. It's like a 0.8. That is high. They move together. When we feel happy, if I ask you how satisfied, how meaningful is your life? You tend to see people report it more highly. When people feel like their life has meaning and a sense of satisfaction, and then you ask how happy they are, they feel happy because that is important contributor. Actually, the single biggest predictor of having a sense of meaning is feeling happy. But as you noted, there are these instances where they don't converge, that a moment doesn't necessarily get picked up in this broader evaluation and sense of meaning. And particularly for sense of meaning, there are also some negative experiences that can

contribute to it. Now, the question of when do those negative experiences turn into meaning versus just breaking you and leaving you unhappy and dissatisfied. And it is the extent to which you can learn from it and grow from that negative experience to develop this narrative of how you've ended up better from it. And I also, like also, I think it's important in when I'm really sort of proposing both in my research and in the course, as well as in the book, those moments that both bring you joy and that give you that sense of satisfaction that contribute to your sense of meaning. And we talked about the role of attention. example of with your family over the holidays, if you're not paying attention to them, then it's not going to get picked up in your feeling of satisfaction, in your sense of meaning. And so we have agency in not only how we spend our time and how we mentally engage and mindfully engage in that time.

We also have agency on what moments we're going to bring into our evaluation of our life as satisfying, our narrative of what is my life all about. So it's both an attention story as in, actually, I would love to sort of touch back to what we were saying before of like those moments that we're spending, for example, you know, with our family over the holidays. And since we're all so achievement oriented and thinking about what's next, I think it's really important. And I share our strategies to do this, to actually take us out of that doing mode so that not all the time, as you said, like our doing is what helps us be like accomplish things and, and, you know, fulfill these goals,

even that we set out for ourselves. But if we're always in that doing mode, then we miss out on a lot of our life. We miss out on those hours. And so I share strategies to make sure to help us remind ourselves in crucial moments to actually turn off that doing, that thinking of what's next, so that we can actually be in the moment, savor those times, and have it get picked up in that sense of satisfaction, in that overall narrative of who we are and the life that we want to be living and then ultimately will be living. And one of those exercises is actually, again, we're talking about the finite nature of life and thinking about life overall, is actually counting times left.

And so one of the things, there's so much potential joy in our ordinary experiences. And in my work, we found that older people tend to savor these ordinary experiences more because they realize that life or time is finite and those times are precious. And so they pay attention to them. But if at any age we're reminded of that finite, the limited nature of those experiences, then young people also savor more. And it's understandable that these everyday sort of ordinary experiences don't draw as much attention because we expect that they will

continue to happen every day. But to your point at the very beginning of our conversation, time is passing. These things will not continue happening every day. And they won't continue happening in the way that you experience them and enjoy them now. Times change. And so if you count the times left, as an example, one of my great sources of joy in my weeks is my coffee date with my daughter, and she is seven. And this is time that is just 30 minutes where, and we've been, we turned what was a routine into a ritual. So this was started four years ago when I was sort of on my way to drop her at her preschool next to my office and wanted to stop at the coffee shop to get coffee, to get caffeine, right?

But it was something that was very functional and something we were doing every week. We shifted it and we framed it as a ritual. So this was our special time. We gave it a name. This is our coffee date. And we had our coffee date and we still have our coffee date playlist. So with the particular songs that we listened to, she gets her hot chocolate, I get my flat white, you mention croissants. And this is time where it's just the two of us being together. And that's the point of it. And that's the specialness of it. Now, this happens every week. And so it's like, it would be very easy for in particularly the busy weeks, you know, us in our doing mode

for me and my doing mode to be like, oh, you know, this is a hectic one. Sorry, Lita, I don't have time this week. Meetings, you know, you've been invited to a birthday party, you know, all this other stuff that sort of fills time. It'd be very easy not to spend this time. But I calculated. So counting times left first, the first step of this is like, once you identify an activity that brings you joy, count how many times have you done this in your life thus far? So I calculated for Lita and mine. So weekly over the last four years. And then in addition, over my maternity leave, I would sort of bundle her up and take her to the coffee shop with me every day because getting out of the house to the coffee shop was my sense of sanity.

So I calculated that we have had about 400 coffee dates together so far. Then the next step is to calculate how many times will you likely do this in the future, accounting for the fact that circumstances in your life will likely change, accounting for the fact that if your joyful activity involves someone else, that circumstances in their life will likely change. And so I calculated, so Lita is seven now. When she turns 12, I suspect she'll probably want to go to the coffee shop with her friends instead of me. So it will be less frequent than a week. I will have to sort of, you know, fight for my time with her. And then she's going to go off to college and then she's going to live, you know, across the country, you know, if she's anything like I was. And so then our coffee days are going to be

relegated to these visits, you know, and then we have to negotiate with dad and brother of like us going off by ourselves. And so I calculated we have about 230 coffee dates left. And then the last step is to calculate of your total times, what percentage do you have left? And I realized that we have 36, about 36% of our coffee days left, less than half, and she's only seven years old. And so what does that make me do? It makes me protect the time. So no matter how busy a week is, even when there is a birthday party invitation, everything says nothing will fill this half hour. This time is protected for the two of us. But as importantly, not only making the time,

it's how I engage during that time, recognizing that there are only 36% left, you know? What that makes me do is turn off that doing mode, you know, like that thinking, like my to-do list in my head of what's next, that I'm not thinking about because this is the time in my life. It's happening now. This is life. This is the stuff that matters. And while not immediately seeming urgent, it's absolutely by recognizing that the time left is limited, it makes it urgent. So a lot of the issue with how we engage in our time and spend our time is driven by urgency,

irrespective of importance. So as tasks come in, we are just reacting to what is presented to us as urgent. And a lot of it seems urgent when it's coming in from someone else, like through email, through texts this next? It's never ending, the incoming requests to write that eulogy, to clarify what is important so that that is at the forefront of our mind, not just the mere urgency of it. Some of these things, importance and urgency go together. But in a lot of cases, importance, like my coffee date with my daughter is so important, but have I not counted the times left? Doesn't seem urgent. It seems so available.

Like family dinners when I, my kids now are, you know, seven and 10, like that happens most, you know, days of the week. And because it happens so frequently,

it's like, Oh, there's no urgency. It's like, we will have dinner tomorrow night, but there's only going to be a matter of time before they start having their activities where they're not at home at dinnertime and we're not sitting down together. And then let alone when they're going to be at friends' houses, when they're going to go off to college, like that same sort of counting. And so by recognizing just how important these sort of seemingly mundane and ordinary and accessible things are, it makes us engage. It makes us spend the time as well as it influences how we spend that time. Yeah.

It also compelled you to create a bit of a sacred container around that time also. Yeah. You know, as you described the difference between a routine and a ritual, it's like this becomes a ritual where, and part of that ritualization so often is like, you do the things to be more present. You do the things to be less distracted. And you're like, devices probably go away or go on silent mode or you don't pick it up unless you know, like something is really truly emergent. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. A lot of what you've been talking about also is distinguishing between what matters, what doesn't matter, and then choosing what matters, building the container around that so we can really be present in that, framing it in the context of our life and understanding that we have a limited amount of time to do certain things. And maybe we end up having more time and that's like bonus time, which is awesome, but don't always assume that. But a lot of what you've also been speaking to, there's a really strong relational component to the way that we spend our time. And I know this is part of your work, part of other work that I've seen. When we think about like, well, what are the things that we can do to spend time better? And you talked about a sense of purpose. There's research around nature and flow and acts of kindness, all things that you explore.

But the notion of being with other people, who you want to be with. Yeah. And in a way that I guess jives with whatever social wiring you have is so central to the question of how do I spend my time wisely? Yeah. I mean, our relationships, that sense of connection, genuine connection, and it doesn't come just from like all versions of socializing. So time tracking research, looking at how people spend their days on what activities

as well as how they feel over the course of their days, you can, researchers can sort of pull out what are those activities that tend to be the most positive, both satisfying as well as enjoyable, and those that are the least positive. And from that, you do see that socializing as well as physical intimacy are, again and again, and on average, the most positive. But what is important to know is that not all versions of socializing are positive. I can absolutely think of occasions where I'm with other people and it is not fun. And so I think it's really important for folks to identify for themselves, what are those times and ways of engaging that are the most satisfying, that are the most fulfilling, that make you feel

most connected? And one of the exercises I encourage folks to do is actually to track their own time. And so over the course of a week, write down your activities as well as how you feel coming out of it so that you can look at like, oh, these are those activities that are most worthwhile. And you might pick out commonalities across your most positive activities. So I can say like for myself, my happiest times are actually in one-on-one interactions. And that spans both with my family as the coffee date with my daughter, that's one-on-one. I love my date nights with my husband. That is time where we get to fully connect. And then I have the putting my son to bed, that's sort of like our conversations before we turn out the light. That's the time that is so connecting. Also with friends, I get so much more satisfaction in these one-on-one interactions where we

get into that sort of deep conversation that's disclusive and comforting as opposed to group settings, which oftentimes are fun, but I don't walk away with that same sense of fulfillment. But also it happens in my work hours as well. Like spending, like truly connecting with a colleague on research idea or even interpersonally, that is, you know, like, so it doesn't just have to be in the personal sphere. And recognizing for yourself, but through the time tracking and some reflection, it's like, okay, what are those sources of true connection for you that are the most satisfying, that make you feel connected? Because then that informs how you construct and how you sort of schedule your time, your social time in particular to make it as satisfying and impactful as possible. And that social connection is so

important. And I know, I mean, thinkers across domains, across time have all pointed to just how fundamentally important that sense of connection, genuine connection, that feeling of belonging. I mean, looking even at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, at the bottom of the pyramid, it is those physiological needs. Like, yes, we need to be healthy. Yes, we need shelter. Yes, we need food. But the very next level, the most basic psychological need, not physiological need, is a sense of belonging. And if those connections, that sense of connection is fulfilled, then great, you sort of climb up that pyramid towards a sense of personal confidence and ultimately self-actualization. But if you forfeit sort of those connections while you're

striving towards your personal pursuits, then it's not satisfying. And there is that feeling of dissatisfaction sort of at the end of the day. And you see this come up in so many different ways, both in folks' eulogies. As I mentioned, now I've seen so many students' eulogies, that it is those relationships that ultimately matter. Even looking at research of the Harvard study of adult development is so fascinating. So it followed this cohort of young men in Boston, some of whom were Harvard students, others whom were not, over the course of 75 years, looking, you know, touching base with them and being like, what are they doing over the course of, you know, and how are you doing and how are you doing? And how are you feeling? And what they found at the end of these lives, which were very varied, the single biggest

predictor of life satisfaction. And it's not, again, like, you know, talking about terminology of like, do they feel happy along the way? But feeling satisfied with our life overall, it was not fortune, nor was it, it was having strong supportive relationships, whether that came in the form of family or friends that feel like family. It's those strong supportive relationships. And so again, with this broader perspective that clues us into, as we're spending the hours of our week, how do we engage? Not like sort of carve out the time as well as engage during that time to cultivate those relationships such that they are strong

and supportive and that they have the longevity. So it's absolutely worth the time. And it does require an investment of time, but it's worth it. Now, I will also note that I talk in the book and the research points to other ways of spending time that are really important that don't involve others. And some of them like very purposely, that time to think that you sort of are uninterrupted so you can get into flow or just to think and like sort of protecting time for that. So you're not reacting to, you know, and like sort of responsive to others. Exercise. Yes, you can make it social, but exercise is a really important contributor to our emotional wellbeing, physical wellbeing, but you know, like in our happiness. So it's not like all of our time, you know, is about relationships that there are,

it's just making sure that at least some of the time is invested such that at the end of the days, at the end of the weeks, at the end of the years, at the end of your life, you have those strong supportive relationships. So great. Relationships are really important. And so are other things. You can spend your time well in solitude. And that might also just be being outside. I know you write about this as well, being immersed in nature. There are all sorts of ways to just spend it better. And it may be better for you if you're an outsider in nature with a friend or somebody you really care with. But it also is a pretty good if you're alone.

As we're having this conversation, I'm in Boulder, Colorado, and looking out past my screen right now, I'm looking, there's a window and there's the front range of the Rockies. And I hike in there, you know, three to five days a week, almost always alone. And I always feel that it's time really beautifully spent. And I'm sure I'm happy to like be out there with a friend if they happen to be available, but I'm equally happy just being out there doing the thing, you know, being outside and being in nature. The notion of time tracking, like taking a week to actually track your time is fascinating to me also. And I wonder if there's a phenomenon that's similar to what happens in the nutrition world where

you go to see a nutritionist for the first time, they're like, okay, let's set up our follow-up appointment next week in between now and then. I want you to keep a food log. And what inevitably happens, and I have a lot of friends who've been in that space, is people change their behavior really quickly just by keeping the food log. Because they start to realize, oh, wow. So that's what's going into me. And without anything else, without any other guidance, they're just like, wow, I never realized.

I just need to make some shifts. And I'll make them in a more informed way when I go back and talk to the person. But it creates, so it starts out like the first day or two being sort of like what it has been for years. And then by the end of a week, it's like a completely different diary than it would have been. Had the person just been kind of like randomly thinking about what they were eating for a week. I wonder if you see a similar phenomenon with people who track time for a week. I absolutely do. And it's so great because

it's simply the intention, like that realization of like, holy cow, I'm spending so much time on these particular ways that don't even matter so much. And I had no idea I was spending so much time on these particular ways that don't even matter so much. And I had no idea I was spending that much time. As well as because in the time tracking, not only are you writing what you're doing, which can itself have an effect, but you're also rating how you felt coming out of it. And that's actually quite illuminating. It's like, particularly among my students, like I had no idea I was spending this much time on social media. And they have this notion of like,

oh, this is fun time. This is me time. But if they look at like looking at their own ratings, not me being like social media researchers is bad for you, but they see themselves. They're like, I actually don't feel great. Like I am giving it a four on a 10 point scale. And so just in those initial days, you see the change. And then I actually also have my students do this over the course of two weeks

as a sort of more complete capturing of all their day-to-day activities. And you see shifts. So I have them calculate how much time do you spend on particular activities? And there is a change from week one, even to week two. I think the change even starts in the initial days. But once you're tracking, that is shifting how you're engaging because what it is doing is making you more intentional. It is, okay, these are activities that are wasteful. And again, like not me being the judge of what's a waste of time, but for the individual being like, I'm spending a lot of time on this. I don't enjoy it that much. And it's not necessary. So it's a clear opportunity to reallocate that time towards those other activities

that you've identified are absolutely worthwhile. Love that. And I feel like this is probably a good place for us to come full circle as well in this container of good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To spend in moments of joy with those people that are so important and making those moments joyful. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation Thank you. producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher

Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelly Adele for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here. Would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person, just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those, you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better. So we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together.

Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. life project. Mayday, mayday. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. Flight risk. minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.