Good Life Project - How to Find Peace, Even When You Disagree | Melissa Carter

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

Ever felt isolated when your beliefs were challenged?Faced the sting of judgment in a world of polarized views?Questioned if there’s room for contrasting opinions without alienation?Dive into an enlightening conversation with Melissa Carter, Senior Director for Global Spiritual Life at NYU, as she:Challenges the fear of differing views.Shares techniques to bridge the gaps of misunderstanding.Explores "intelligent differences" and how they can unite us.Distinguishes between genuine harm and simple disagreement.Join us in this episode, as we unveil the transformative power of conflict and discover the potential for shared belonging. Let's learn to view opposition not as a threat but as a beacon towards mutual growth and understanding. Press play to chart your path from isolation to inclusivity.You can find Melissa at: Find Melissa Online Here | Instagram | Episode Transcript If you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Jonathan Haidt on happiness, morality, and hard conversations. Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My whole story is about avoiding myself and avoiding really having to affirm that what society says about me, what my mother was saying about me wasn't true. And to stand in my truth with no validation other than myself. And that is hard. Be comfortable being uncomfortable because the second you can sit with what is, you have your own type of belonging that you can move from. And that's really powerful to build a life from there. So have you ever felt crushed or demoralized when somebody challenged your beliefs?

Like their different views condemned you or made you feel unheard or incapable of finding any kind of common ground, even when you knew writing them off wasn't really the answer either. So I think we've all been there, facing the harsh judgment that can sometimes come with polarized perspectives. When a conversation turns to conflict instead of understanding, it's easy to feel isolated and even alienated. And we question if we truly belong when others refuse to see our shared humanity. But what if differing views weren't something to avoid at all costs? What if instead they were an opportunity to grow in wisdom and compassion? A chance to find belonging by embracing the parts of ourselves that feel defensive or reactive.

My guest today, Melissa Carter, has devoted over a decade of her life to exploring these ideas. As Senior Director for Global Spiritual Life at New York University, Melissa guides students to sit with this comfort, to explore the feelings and the knowings and the experiences wrapped around being in a community, being in a conversation, being in interactions where people don't always see the world the same way, let alone any given issue. In our conversation, she shares some really groundbreaking perspectives on reframing opposition as a tool for mutual understanding rather than the much more common cancellation or

polarization. And she offers techniques to overcome barriers that prevent belonging both to our highest values and to each other. And she dives into coexistence, distinguishing harm from disagreement, sharing insights anyone can use to transform conflict into what she calls intelligent differences that illuminate a shared path forward. So if you have ever felt alienated or isolated or on the outside by contrasting views, this episode will really give you tools and a sense of hope.

Join me in learning how to turn life's difficulties into gateways of belonging, starting within ourselves and radiating outward. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. As we have this conversation, you hold a couple of different titles, Head of NYU's Mindfulness and Education Programming, Senior Director of Global Spiritual Life, Adjunct Professor, really exploring the intersection between a wide variety of domains from spirituality to mindfulness to social justice to belonging self-care and the points of intersection of all these different things. And I want to dive into a bunch of those.

But before we get there, a lot of the place that you found yourself today is really deeply informed by your own personal journey, your own personal story, the experiences that you've had going all the way back from the time that you were a young kid. So let's take a jump back in time and touch into some of those earlier moments and experiences that really awakened you also were sources of struggle, sources of awakening, and kind of led you to the path that you're in. Take me back to sort of like the earlier experiences. always struggled with my own sense of belonging. I think in so many different ways within family structures, within my religion, within, you know, friend groups, my father, a Nigerian black man, my mom was a Ukrainian Jewish woman. And when they met, it was only a couple of years after interracial marriage became legal in our country, in this country, in the United States.

And my mother's family completely disagreed with her dating a Black man. So they dated in secret for a year. My father was one of the first Black contract negotiators for the Paperworkers Union. And his office actually is here in New York City. So I walk by it often, which is kind of cool. And my mom was, I believe, a secretary in the office. So they dated in secret for like a year. And they would write love notes back and forth to each other.

Back in the day, there were these like pink forms that said, while you were out. I remember that as well. And they would write like little notes back and forth. And I have quite a few of them. Then at one point they decided that they wanted to get married. They, you know, they loved each other. They wanted to be together. They wanted to build a life together. My mother's family disowned my mom for marrying my dad. They set Shiva for her. That's the ritual of mourning in the Jewish faith. So for many years, she didn't have her parents. There was a bit of a reconciliation later on. I was already born at this point. I think I met my grandparents

a few times, but there wasn't much of a relationship. And I just remember really feeling this sense of like, why don't we have any family around, you know, and that looks like my mom or why do I look different than my mother? And the age of nine, I lost my father to lung cancer and he got diagnosed and within six months he had passed and he had converted to Judaism before I was born. And so I was raised Jewish. You know, we'd go to temple and my dad would be there. And my dad was very proud to be Jewish, very proud. It fulfilled something in him. And so, you know, we were saying prayers. We were like one, you know, one of the first in a rose and we did, you know, ritual and Shabbat dinners. And so that just seemed very normal to me. And my, you know, my father looked like me

and it seemed normal. But then I started to notice that after he passed, there was no one that looked like myself or my sister when we would be at temple. That, you know, raised a few questions, but I didn't have the language at the time because I was so young to bring it up. My mom really struggled with his death. She was also sick. She had diabetes and she struggled with her diabetes and she really struggled with his death. And after many years of therapy and healing, I can see, you know, she lost her whole family to marry this man and then he dies. And she really didn't get the help that she needed. And she became quite abusive with me and my sister.

I think the unlearning of the way racism and whiteness showed up in her body stopped. And now she had these two black kids to take care of and she didn't know how to do her hair. And she didn't understand why, you know, we looked different than her friend's kids. And she really struggled with that and was really quite emotionally and physically abusive to my sister and I. She was in and out of the hospital. She was very sick. And in her last year of life, my sister and I basically stayed in our home alone while she was in the hospital. And someone would come and bring us, you know, money for food for the week. But we really fended for ourselves, got ourselves ready for school and things like that. I think I was 12 and my sister was 15. And I remember my body, my weight being a really big issue for her. And I was constantly on Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig.

And again, I wasn't even a teenager. I mean, I was so young and she married a big black man. So, you know, we're not going to be these little tiny kids that she wanted, but she had been in the hospital for quite some time and she'd come back and I had lost weight. Of course I had lost weight. I was a little kid trying to take care of myself. I'm sure I wasn't eating a lot. And she was very excited that I had lost all this weight. And she was so proud of the way my body looked. And that was also very confusing. And she died within a couple weeks after that. For a moment, I felt her acceptance and her love that was quite conditional.

And then it was gone. And now I had no parents. I had this family, particularly my mom's parents, that didn't want to interact with us because of our skin color. And then my mother's half-brother, she had a half-brother who she was not close with. Him and his family, my Aunt Sandra, my Uncle Frank, my cousin Mac, Dara, and Daniel took my sister and I in, and they know my uncle, who's one of my favorite people in the whole world. And actually my son is named after knows me better than he knew his own

sister. You know? So I was at this time, 13, my sister was 16, 17. And we moved to Florida from New Jersey and lived with them. And again,

like here, I was a little different, right? Like I was black. I was Jewish. I was Jewish. I was from New Jersey. This is Miami. This is very different. I lost my parents. I'd come from an abusive home. So just growing up, I always felt that lack of belonging and that yearning to look other ways than I did to gain acceptance, to gain belonging, to gain love. Because that's what I was

trained by my mom to do. So in college, I really struggled with that sense of belonging and that being who I am innately, wanting to be something I wasn't. So I did all sorts of things. I had multiple groups of friends, right? Like, you know, there was part of me that was the sorority girl, and I had joined a sorority. And then there was another part of me that dated, you know, there was part of me that was the sorority girl and I joined a sorority. And then there was another part of me that dated, you know, drug dealers and, you know, just really, you know, not what I should have been doing and kept entering into these like romantic relationships that were abusive and then in friend groups that weren't really true friends, but then I'd go into like my sorority sisters and it was, and I was, you know, vice president of this and secretary of that and, you know, on this board. And so like, I lived all these like double lives where in one area, I think the part of me that was so hurt and yearning for love was making very poor decisions. And I think there's like this innate part of me that just knew who I was in my core, who was making very poor decisions. And I think there's like this innate part of me that

just knew who I was in my core, who was making really smart decisions and decisions that were carving these new paths. And I don't think I would have known then that this part of me was doing that. But then after college, I was in New York for spring break or something like that. And, you know, I was a lively kid and I was at a club and I loved music. I just loved music so much. It was just everything to me. And I would, even in college, I would throw parties on the golf course because why not? I was in college. I think I even like, oh yeah, I had my radio station. I was on the radio station. Just, you know, again, like very creative, like I found ways to be successful and then also making really

important choices that were, I think, furthering the narrative of you don't belong, you're not loved, you're less than, deficit, deficit, deficit. And I don't know even if the parts of me that were being successful were doing great in school and were sociable and in these clubs and this, that, and the other would have known that that was because of the strength of who I am was leading that. I don't know if I would have been able to attribute it to that then. So here I am in New York on spring break. I meet a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy, and he's like, oh, I'm in the music industry. And I, you know, I'm looking for a publicist. And at that moment, I was really struggling back home in Florida of I needed to make a change, you know, or I was going to keep the cycle going of going back to this, you know,

these bad relationships and not living my potential or what I could build or live for my life that I don't think I could have seen at that point. And so something inside me was like, I'm a publicist. And the guy was like, oh yeah, I've been doing publicity all college, you know? And I think like a month later, two of my sorority sisters, we packed up a rented van and we moved me to New York and I Googled how to be a publicist on the way and figured it out. And, you know, I quickly got fired from that job as soon as I got here, because obviously I wasn't a publicist, And, you know, I quickly got fired from that job as soon as I got here, because obviously I wasn't a publicist. But, you know, I picked up a promoting at clubs gig,

and I picked up a side job here and a side job there. And then all of a sudden, I got a job at the Virgin Megastore in Union Square back when that was still around and quickly became a floor manager. Randomly, another friend who knew that I loved music, who he had moved here from Florida, he had worked at Def Jam at the time, overheard that Chris Lighty's office at Violator Management, who managed Mobb Deep and Trap Called Quest and Missy Ellie and 50 Cent, they needed a new intern or second assistant for his assistant. I called them up and said, Hey, I heard you need an assistant. I'm an assistant. Okay. So came in for the interview, got the job.

And that kind of was how my, the tenacity within me would always just kind of show up at the right moment. And I think then I would have said that was like my grit and it was, you know, or my just like ability to see an opportunity and take it. But I actually believe it was part of my faith walk and it was part of my spiritual journey. And so I switched to that to say, I'm like a cat. I've had multiple careers, but each one has led me to a deeper understanding of who I am and what I think I'm supposed to contribute to humanity. It's allowed me to find my own belonging. It's allowed me to unlearn the narratives I was taught as a child that were

taught to me from my mother or from society or from just what our culture says. And I think find like my innate truth and then really start building and living a life from there. And so that's really the setup of how, you know, coming from this really broken home. And, you know, I think about, I have no anger animosity towards my mom. I think that she was actually quite courageous and took, was taking steps to do her unlearning walk of unlearning the ways in which racism and hate and supremacy showed up at her. I think it was very courageous of her to

say like, okay, I'm going to walk away from my whole family and marry the man I love and give birth to two children. And I think it's unfortunate that she didn't get to finish that unlearning. So I feel very much like I'm doing part of that for her. And so I feel like there's a lot of generational healing in my family that's happening Yeah It's so interesting. You know, there's so many threads in there like one of them that just really stood out to me is that It's almost like you're living these two lives that are tracking side by side And one is this there's some there's a voice inside of you that says like I know me And I have strength and I can handle what comes my way

And the other voice is the voice of pain. It's the voice of wounding. It's the, I know me and I have strength and I can handle what comes my way. And the other voice is the voice of pain. It's the voice of wounding. It's the voice of suffering and just yearning to be seen and to be accepted and to belong as you are. And it's like they're doing this dance, weaving between each other, trying to figure out who takes the lead at any given time and what's constructive and what's deconstructive in that dance. And when you're a kid, I think when we look back at moments like this or seasons of our

life, we can see that. But when you're in it, you're just opening your eyes in the morning. You're just living, you know? It's just like, I'm just like doing the thing every day. And like, you go from one thing to the next to the next. But for you, it's sort of interesting that music also becomes this really interesting, almost like third anchor for you. And at the same time, music, especially like the hip hop culture around then was also really controversial culture, like whether it comes down to the lyrics,

the people that were in it. And there's been a lot of conversation like over the, probably the recent five years or so. I was recently actually listening to somebody who wrote a recent second biography about Biggie Smalls. And it's such a titan in that space, such an incredible, innovative, creative, like that space wouldn't be the same without his existence. And yet, if you look back at the lyrics and some of his personal relationships, like the harm and the misogyny and homophobia is clear. And I bring it up because there was a comment that was offered because people say his life was cut down very young, 25 years later. People are saying, well, you'd like to think that had he continued the journey and been an open person and been in conversation and followed culture,

would his thought process have changed? Would he have grown differently? Would he have become much more open and understanding and accepting? It sounds like there's a really similar wondering about your mom. It's like she had sacrificed so much and she had been on this journey of unlearning, as you described. And then there was this profoundly traumatic incident that shifts things in a negative way and knocks her off that journey. But had she been around, would she have come back on that journey and like, you know, deepened into it? You know, I think about that a lot, actually. And I really actually have deep, deep, deep compassion for her because I don't

know much about her childhood and I don't know what was indoctrinated into her. You know, I don't know what was told to her. I don't know what her indoctrinated into her. You know, I don't know what was told to her. I don't know what her belonging felt like. You know, I don't know what she went through that brought her to the experience of this is how I have to treat another human being. And a lot of my work is asking those questions and having the ability to say to someone in front of you,

can you tell me how you got there? Right? How did you get to that opinion? How how you got there? Right? How did you get to that opinion? How did you get to that belief? How did you get to that perspective of what you believe about me? How did you get there? And I feel very strongly that I have to live a very honest and authentic life in memory of her, right? Like, again, like she didn't get that opportunity to continue her unlearning. And I feel like it's a, like she didn't get that opportunity to continue her unlearning. And I feel like it's a tragedy that she didn't get to know me for me. You know, I think it's a tragedy that like, she didn't get to know my sister for my sister, who's quite amazing.

And we're her kids. We did good. We're doing good in the world. I appreciate your, your bringing up this dance of the pain. And I also don't want to just say strength, but I would say this like deep love that I had for life and this deep curiosity that I had and this deep wonderment that I had. I think the child within me was so curious. She was so full of wonder and filled with so much possibility. And I never lost that. And I think that's really beautiful. And this pain overshadowed it sometimes. But I think once I got them into relationship, once I got them talking, I got them dancing, I could wonder about my pain where I could sit with it and say like, what is this pain? Is this even mine? Right? What is this narrative? What is this pain? Is this even mine? Right? What is this narrative? What is this saying about me?

Is it even true? And, you know, as I continued to get older and had more experiences, and honestly, therapy is a wonderful thing, really allow myself to peel away the narratives that were not mine so I could hear and see and remember the innate truth in me. And that's when my spirituality came. I was in my late twenties, early thirties and started meditating. I had, you know, dabbled in the Jewish faith here and there, but always really struggled every time I went into Jewish community. I think I was, again, that pain just didn't allow me to see the community in front of me or see that I could belong. And then, you know, any slight action of bias or questioning of my

Judaism or Jewishness or, you know, why am I there? I think just reinforced the pain and I just couldn't touch it. So I stayed away. So I became a spiritual person and I still never lost my commitment or my feeling that, you know, something divine was always around me and guiding me and with me. And I think the slowly sitting with the pain and peeling away the narratives allowed me to feel and see and hear more of that unseen divinity, spirit, and give, or however you call God, right? And so slowly I got to hear that. And that was able to hear my innate truth, my own voice, my own belonging. gig. And I think the pain stopped leading the dance and became more of my teacher of how can I use this so I don't have to keep living it. And then once I, I think moved through that and grew

up and, you know, obviously became more emotionally mature and secure. I think now my work is really centered in like, I want to help others make sure that they have the tools to find their own belonging and whatever that is. Is that in religion? Is that in their wellbeing? Is that in their creative expression? Is that, you know, in them just living an authentic life? You know, I think each of us has a unique gift or talent that this world definitely needs. And we're ever going to move forward towards a more liberated world of love, equality, and equity. And each of us, I think, contribute to that, but we have to be empowered to offer it. And I want to be a part of that. And I think I needed to move through a lot of pain to be able to even feel that I could contribute to it.

And now that I do feel like I can contribute to it, I don't feel like, oh, I just can. I feel like it's part of my human obligation. Which is also so different. I feel like so often, so many of us feel this compulsion to contribute, to help others, to heal, because it's part of our own healing journey, because we're still deeply in the wound. And we feel like if we can help others heal theirs, it'll make us feel better. And also to a certain extent, I think sometimes that becomes a distraction. It lets us feel like we're doing the work because we're helping somebody else do the work, but also it's distracting us from actually doing the work on ourselves. Correct.

And I think there's a lot of ego in that. And I remember when I was first getting into relationship with my own spirituality, I was very excited. You know, it's very different and very freeing. And, you know, I was offering guided meditations and mindfulness and we do women's circles and I did Reiki and I could do intuitive readings, all these things. And I remember when I first started, there was like a bit of me that like, I think, like you said, I use that to, oh, I can go and heal others. I can go and help others heal. And, and it further kept me away from my own stuff. Right. And because of that, that's not being of service, right? Like I wasn't being

of service. I wasn't truly helping. And I think once I kind of gotten to understanding that that was what I was doing, I was just distracting myself from my own stuff. I realized that that's not the way I was supposed to be offering my gifts and talents. And when I first started in mindfulness, it was very important that I got trauma informed trained because I felt that I, one, I obviously didn't want like my own trauma to enter the room, but I was noticing I struggled with it a bit, right? I struggled to separate myself from my trauma to be able to be in a room and hear other people's trauma and hold spaces where it wasn't overwhelming me and consuming me. I'm a very, very sensitive person.

And someone said to me, and I don't know who said this, it's probably in a book somewhere, and I'm sorry that I'm not citing it. So I did not make this up. Someone much wiser than me did. And they said, lead from the scar and not the wound. And I've really been guiding my, anytime I try to be of service or to hold space or to offer guidance or to help someone move through a difficult time, I always try to lead with myself first. It's just who I am. And it's who I'm always going to be. But I now have this deep commitment to lead from the scar and not the wound. And if I'm not ready to be able to stay grounded and in my own body, when I share of myself externally, then it's not the time for me to share from there.

And that was something I had to learn as my career went on. And I think that that's okay. And I see like a lot of young or even not so young influencers and leaders out there leading from their scars and leading from their wounds. I really wish people would just take a beat and realize that you don't have to, that you're actually, you need to ask yourself, am I really being of service right now? Or am I trying to have my own wound tended to? And I think when we're not having our own wounds tended to, when we're being of service, that is service. And it's not that there's any malintent in this phenomenon. Often people are like, I really, really want to help. I really want to serve. Like I see people suffering all around me. I'm suffering too.

Maybe there's just some role that I can play in alleviating that. And that's not a bad thing. That's like a beautiful impulse, right? Well, I think we've also been taught that. I'm so sorry. I think we've been taught that. I think we've been taught to engage in that way of relating, right? Like you tell me something and I'm like, oh, me too.

I relate to that. And let me tell you my own pain story around that. Yeah. It's the commiseration effect, right? Like you tell me something and I'm like, oh, me too. I relate to that. And let me tell you my own pain story around that. Yeah. It's the commiseration effect, right? Yeah. And we're not taught that actually your presence and your witnessing is enough, right? So when I am talking with students at NYU and we're going through active listening or resonating exercises, I'm like, what if you didn't say your me too story back? What if you just said, and I don't mean me to mean to the movement. I mean like me too. And I'm going to share a difficulty. Oh, let me share you a difficulty. And so, you know, that I

understand that we can relate. What if you just shared back what you heard the person say, Hey, so what I'm hearing you say is the following. And did I get that right? Am I understanding you right? And literally just your witnessing presence be enough. And so we'll have the students come and do this exercise and they get blown away by it because they're like, wow, I feel really seen and heard. And then the person listening is like, I didn't really, I feel less pressure to have to relate to them in a way that maybe I'm not comfortable relating yet. Right. So I think it just, it's a way of engagement that we've been taught and there's other ways to engage.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. We sort of followed loosely the Arthur Aaron's work on sort of like cultivating intimacy. And part of his, it sort of became popularized a chunk of years back when Mandy Lim had his column in the New York Times and the modern romance piece where it was about like, these

are the 36 questions that cultivate instant intimacy and instant friendship. And he ran some really fascinating research in his lab in Stony Brook, where he brought students who were complete strangers into the lab, had them move through these like three cycles of 36 questions. And the idea underneath it was mutual progressive vulnerability and revelation, where each person would answer the question, and then they go to the next one. It started really surface level, like super easy, like you're not really having, it's not uncomfortable. And closer to this person who had been a stranger than they did to friends that they had known for years. But it kind of speaks to like part of what you're talking about, whereas it's so human nature for us to feel like the only pathway to deepening intimacy and friendship is by this reciprocal storytelling and say like, oh yeah, me too. This is what

happened to me. And that's one way to do it. And sometimes it's completely appropriate and a great way to engage. But what you're offering is this alternative path that I think a lot of us don't realize is available to us that can be so powerful and beautiful and helping people feel seen and helping people connect with each other. Absolutely. You know, Adrienne Marie Brown, she's the author of Pleasure Activism and Virgin Strategy. I've been to quite a few of her trainings. She's a phenomenal, I mean, she's just like an earth angel. I mean, she's just phenomenal. But she has one of her principles is what I'm hearing you talk about is moving at the speed of trust. And I love that so much. And I try to allow that to help me when I'm entering in any type of relationship, romantic,

work, familial, anything, right? Is can we move at the speed of trust and really feel that trust? And I think there's such a grounded connective tissue in that. And that's what I'm, I'm, I'm hearing you say too, right? Like, wow, like I can just sit and feel heard and seen that creates trust. And, um, I don't know how many students come to my office just to talk because, you know, they want to just be heard and seen. Yeah. I feel like in today's culture, that is such a gift because it's so rare. And I feel like whether it's your personal history, whether it's what's going on in your immediate or larger cultural experience, whether it's social media and the impact of what we see,

like the shiny happy story side of it, it's just so many people are walking around feeling like all the data shows that there's an epidemic of loneliness. We're more connected than ever before. And yet loneliness is at record high rates. People just don't feel the real them is actually surfaced and seen on a regular basis. And I think there's an urgency and a fighting for the space to be seen. Yeah. Take me more about that. You know, I think about social media of like, how many followers can I get?

And can I share this story? And how much can I reveal of myself? And how much am I willing to allow you to see to get more followers and this, that, and the other? And I find it sometimes to be people really fighting for the space to be seen because we're just not stopping and witnessing and being present with one another and moving a little bit slower and at that speed of trust. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it definitely does. And I feel like we're feeling that we're feeling the pain of it, but we don't necessarily understand where the pain is coming from.

Right. And I don't think it's anyone's, you know, I don't think it's anyone's fault, but I think it's what you're saying. I think it's this over-access, this urgency for instant gratification of that being seen, being quite distracted with all the technology and over information that we have. And I think there's like an inability of just like, sometimes you just need to see yourself and that be enough. And sometimes I think that's a bit of a scary proposition for a lot of people. Absolutely. Terrifying. Yeah. It's like to lay yourself bare in your own eyes is not always an easy thing to do. Yeah. I mean, look, my whole story is about that,

right? Like my whole story is about avoiding myself and avoiding really having to like, and I don't know if I've ever even said this, but really having to affirm that what society says about me, what my mother was saying about me wasn't true and to stand in my truth with no validation other than myself. And that is hard. When students come to you, like as we shared in the beginning of our conversation, you've been at NYU for a number of years now, really exploring the intersection of mindfulness and social justice and spirituality and belonging and all these really important things. When students come to you, so you have this sort of like, you have a role at this major university in New York City where you have an interesting access point to students and to the experiences that they're having in whether it's academic pressure, social pressure, cultural

pressure. When they come to you with questions like what we're talking about, and they're struggling, they're struggling with a sense of identity, a sense of belonging, a sense of almost every 19, 20, 21 year old, no matter what your background is, is struggling with that stuff. I think most adults are, right? Yeah. So when they come to you, you have an interesting toolbox to draw upon. When somebody shows up with you, I'm curious what you look to, to help people in those moments. What's so amazing about this cohort of students and young adults that I get to work with, and I have the privilege to work with, so really, I mean, it's just,

it's amazing and so inspiring, is they are in this moment of development, of human development, self-authorship, where they're really determining how they want to self-author the next big moment of their lives and what's really for them and might be challenging some of the things that they grew up hearing and understanding and the rules and obligations and rituals in which that they lived. They might be challenging that a bit or they might not be right. You know? And I think the first thing that's important is that they stay in their own bodies, right? Like, do they have a connection to their own body? And I think mindfulness, self-regulation, embodiment exercises,

contemplation practices to put you in your own body in a world that's constantly giving you all this fuel and fire to get out of it, put you in your own body. So you're in your own experience and your own subjective experience and really inquire and examine what brought you to this moment. And so I think it's inviting in that self-regulation, that embodied practice and inviting a sense of curiosity that's playful to students, inviting them to challenge and question all in a way that allows them to make deeper understanding and meaning of the things they're learning, of the things they're trying out in their different identities and roles and ways of being. And I would say another tool would be community. I think it's

really important to, even if it's just one other person, finding a way to connect, putting someone in a community where they can practice being who they are. And I talk about that a lot with my students is this might feel tough. It may feel tough. Like we just said to bear witness to yourself or to be authentic or to be vulnerable or to be the one with a counterculture thought or to, you know, try something new, but can we just practice it? And this idea of practice, meaning that you don't have to get it right or wrong. You're just practicing, you're trying it out and you'll learn from that practice. meaning that you don't have to get it right or wrong. You're just practicing, you're trying it out and you'll learn from that practice. And then you'll take that information and choose to figure out how you want to practice next. And I think it's really important to always

keep that sense of wonderment and child learning, stay curious to learn learn what did you learn, assess it, apply that information to make the next step that feels most aligned with who you are, what you're going to feel in your body. And so if you're not connected to your body, which has so much information for you, I think it's difficult to self-author in a way that is aligned and authentic and true to your innate being. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You know, in an earlier conversation that we had, you posited a question that I wrote down

because it was really simple and short, but I wanted to sit with it. And actually like the nature of the question is how do you sit with what is? And it seems like such a simple question, but it is not. There is so much in there and it is so powerful. And it's probably the type of question where you keep revisiting that for years. I mean, I think you can revisit that multiple times a day, right? Like I think you should always be revisiting it. And I appreciate that that question stayed with you. And sometimes it is the simplest question. That's the most complex answer. We talked about this, but Rev. Angel Keota Williams, the Buddhist priest and speaker, teacher, influencer. I mean, is it all? And just all around talks is she unapologetically sits with what is. When you can sit with what is, I think you can then make choices for yourself that are aligned and authentic. So for example, if we take my own childhood story, until I could sit with the pain of

what this society says about me being a Black woman, or what the pain and the rejection that I received from my mom, or, and just the deep wound that I was, I had, I couldn't see how it wasn't true. And I couldn't see the brilliance of me. And I couldn't see how I was wanted and needed by this world. I was living out the deficit that this world was telling me I was until I could sit with that as, well, that's what it is, that the world says that about me, right? Or that's what happened. I couldn't see another way. And that's why I encourage my students or invite them to have tools of embodied practice, mindfulness, self-regulation, inquiry, to sit with what is, even in discomfort, is be comfortable being uncomfortable. Because the second you can

sit with what is, you have your own type of belonging that you can move from. And that's really powerful to build a life from there. up a lot is handling opposing points of view, you know, and often we question ourselves, but increasingly there's a, I think an impulse to label the experience of somebody having an opposing point of view, just seeing the world differently than you as them causing you harm, psychological harm, physical harm. And sometimes that's true. And sometimes there is malintent behind it. And sometimes there's legitimate harm from your perspective. I'm so curious because like you're in this Petri dish of college students. And part of the college experience is you're intentionally like stepping into a world where you're going to be presented with

human beings with opposing points of view, professors with opposing points of view, teaching with opposing points of view. Tell me more about, because I imagine you have a lot of conversations with students about this in the setting that you're in. What are they experiencing in this moment in time around us? And what are your thoughts around how to navigate this experience? So I actually think that going into a petri dish, as you said, of diverse thought is a gift. And I try to lead from a place of what can we celebrate and learn from this diverse thought rather than look at it as a deficit, which is what our world does, right? It looks at it, diverse thought or looking at the world differently as some type of like, we have to fight for dominance in that and who's right and who's wrong and live in that binary.

I actually think it's an asset and we should be celebrating our differences. And we don't always have to find the common ground and like, oh, well, we have this in common. So now we can get along. Well, actually, what if we don't have anything in common? We don't even have to get along, but we do have to coexist. So this practice of coexistence, I think is really important. I teach a co-teacher course called Conflict Religion, Conflict Transformation, and the American Democracy. And we talk a lot about in this class is how do we coexist with people that we vehemently disagree with? You can vehemently disagree with someone and have a conversation, have a dialogue with someone, but I can try and understand where you're coming from, right? Just to understand,

not to change my opinion, not to change my point of view, but just to understand, like I said earlier, how'd you get there? How'd you get to that belief? Now that's different than harm. And I think we have conflated diverse thought with harm. And because of that, we're not seeing each other's humanities. And because of that, we are staying away from each other and getting more and more and more and more siloed rather than coming at difference from a place of celebration and asset. What capital do you bring? Does your difference bring to this room that actually could influence and help move us forward and compliment mine or not compliment mine? Just simply learn. And we go into this deficit model of

canceling each other out and not trying to hear each other or understand. It's quite dangerous. And I mean, we're seeing it be played out right now in our very, very vital world. But I think it's important to celebrate our differences, but I think it's really important to be able to distinguish between what is harm and what is not. And that's something that we talk a lot about on campus is you are coming into this petri dish of difference. That doesn't mean that you're coming into a petri dish of harm. You have a lot to learn here. And if harm occurs, we approach that differently. And it's got to be an interesting, because there's a line that sometimes

is like really gray and very individualized to the people, to the experience. And yet like your point about not canceling the human being, even if you rejected the idea. And I think that's more in my experience. I'm so curious. Like it sounds like we're on the same page here. One of the things that just scares me so much about the current climate, whether it's in a university or just in the other current conversation and culture, is that when we see somebody offer a strongly opposing point of view, we don't engage to try and learn, like you said, like, well, what's informing that? Like, tell me more about like, where did you come from?

Even if on the surface, we completely disagree, like, wouldn't it be interesting to actually learn what's informing that? And that's valuable to us as we move forward individually, even if there's no resolution at all. Okay, so now I understand people who are different than me with opposing points of view a little bit better, but we don't even go there. And often we just say, if that person doesn't see the world the same as me, they are no longer worthy of human existence. Like their humanity is no longer like worthy of dignity and respect and they're just not there for me anymore. We canceled the person and there's no path

to redemption from that cancellation either. And that is like terrifying to me. It is terrifying. But I think also part of what's contributing to that is that what I was talking about earlier is that urgency to be seen and to be cared for, right? Like I worry that for some people it is urgent. It is urgent that you agree with them and that you, sometimes we're talking about people's human rights and how are we negotiating that? How do we have a different opinion on if someone deserves equity and equality in this world? Right? That's really difficult. And I think there needs to be room for each other's humanity. And we need to model that, deep, deep need for that healing and for that ability to

be with one another, be with what is. And we have such an inability, which is quite scary. And the whole notion of not just being, but inquiring into what is, right, is a skillset. I love the fact that you literally have created a role at a major university that allows you to invite students to explore that skillset. Because I think a lot of grownups, we don't have it. We never had an experience where we were taught this. We were taught the skills of sitting with what is, inquiring into what is in ourselves and in others, and looking underneath the surface of what's actually happening. Like what's the subtext here, not just the context. And even if we never have a resolution, at least we're better informed. And I think that makes for a better circumstance for all of us.

I do have to give credit since you said it created the role. I do have to give credit to my predecessor, Yael Shai, who started the program alongside Iman Khalid Latif and Rabbi Yehuda Sarna, who also are huge contributors to the NYU community. And they created this alongside our current president now, President Linda Mills. And I know one of the priorities for our upcoming year, again, is keep giving tools for people to be with each other, to inquire with one another, hold ourselves accountable to that, and to coexist because we're going to coexist in this world and we're not always going to agree. And we need to know that you can disagree, but we shouldn't have to get to a place of disagreement where we're starting to harm each

other. One of the things that we, and you kind of referenced it in passing, but I want to loop back to it is the notion of belonging and its role in us living in modern day life. And so much of what we strive for, so much of what underneath our yearning is without us realizing it is to belong, not to fit in, not to feel like we've molded ourselves so that we can like walk into a room and everybody's like, Hey, you're here without really actually knowing like the real us that's underneath that facade, but like genuinely feeling that sense of belonging. I think that's a lot of what we're talking about here is this like deep and profound yearning to belong. Even dare say, I think it's all we're talking about. Right. And what it makes

me think about is, so I have a, I have a seven month old baby boy, Sage. And I mean, he's just the love of my life. And I was holding him the other day. I was getting him ready for bed and I was holding him and I was going kind of going through my day. I was a little, not as present as I should have been. I had had a rough day. I had had a quite intense disagreement with a colleague and I was inquiring, going through the conversation in my mind. And I was trying to hold myself accountable to my part and how I contributed to it. And there was a part in it that I was like, I could have done this part better. I'm looking at my son while I'm thinking about this. And I was like, I could have done this part better. I'm looking at my son while I'm thinking about this. And I was like, oh, it's no longer about me doing better for me. I have to do better to show him, right?

And like be an integrity with him for him. And like, I'm teaching him now how to approach these situations. And it was just a very surreal moment of I softened. I immediately was ready to like call a colleague up and take ownership of my contribution with no ego and with no like a shame, just like I did this poorly. I apologize. This is how I'm going to commit to doing it differently moving forward. I asked for your feedback and how that works. And it was literally just like looking at my son and being like, oh, I have to teach him how to do this. Some of my teaching is not going to come from my words.

It's going to come from him just watching me. And I'm saying all this in relationship to belonging because I felt I belonged to something so much bigger than myself in that moment. And I wanted to be the best person I could be because of it. And to me, that was love, right? I have to experience it. I wanted to be a person of integrity, of authenticity, of honesty, of truth, and it's a bit deep, but that sense of belonging is simply a way that we can love one another in the most radical sense, not in a unicorns and snow cones sense. No, no, completely makes sense. And I'm right there with you. And it feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think living a life of curiosity and trying to live as truthfully and honestly as possible. That's grounded in love of service to others and where you strive every day to see the humanity, not only in yourself, but in others, give the permission and grace to do so.

Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say, but you'll also love the conversation that we have with Jonathan Haidt on happiness, morality, and heart conversations. You'll find a link to Jonathan's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead chances are you did since you're still listening here. Would you do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person.

Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields

signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. watch getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes the apple watch series 10 available for

the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iphone 10s are later required charge time and actual results will vary mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what the difference between me and you is you're gonna die don't shoot him we need him y'all need a pilot flight risk