Good Life Project - How to Have a Point of View | James Victore

Episode Date: March 5, 2019

My guest today, James Victore, has been described as part Darth Vader, part Yoda, prolific storyteller, designer, provocateur, artist, activist and teacher. James Victore is the designer and creative thought leader whom people look to find clarity and purpose in their life and work.James is widely known for his timely wisdom and impassioned views about design and its place in the world. At the helm of his independently run design studio, James is always working to make work that is sexy, strong and memorable, that takes a strong position and often toes the line between sacred and the profane.And, the world has taken notice. His work has been exhibited at the Museum of Modern Art in New York (and he shares a pretty funny story about that in our conversation), is in the permanent collections of the Louvre and the Library of Congress and his client list includes industry-leaders like Adobe, Starbucks, Aveda and many foundations on a mission to create change in the world. James taught at the School of Visual Arts in NYC for over 20 years. His new book, “Feck Perfuction“ (https://amzn.to/2EksGze) is sort of his manifesto on living a creative, full-contact and alive life.----------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How do you describe someone who's one part provocateur, one part designer, one part artist, one part teacher, one part change maker, and all parts rebel? Well, that's just sort of the tip of the iceberg with my guest this week, James Victoria, who went to the School of Visual Arts in New York, dropped out midway through, but he didn't drop out of the profession of creating provocative designs that would go out into the world and make huge change in the scope of culture, society, corporations, and even have shows ending up in MoMA and in the permanent collection of the Louvre, while also simultaneously running his own design firm.

This is the journey of James. And we track this incredible journey. We touch down into the early days, the midpoints, the big moments of awakening, and also what led him to write his latest book, FEC Perfuction, which is sort of a creative life's manifesto. It is really powerful, really funny, really irreverent, and also really poignant. We dive into some of the ideas from that as well. Super excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-nest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what's the difference between me and you? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

So by the time I was five years old, I'd lived in five different places. Got it, got it, got it. On bases? Yeah, bases all around the country. My mom moved three kids on her own in a Dodge station wagon across the country twice. Man. These are the people who raised me. Yeah, but we ended up when I was five in upstate New York, Plattsburgh, New York.

And my parents liked it and they liked the schools and we stayed there for forever. And then, you know, when I was 19 I was like, hmm, I think something else is coming. So totally out of like a you know, John Cougar song or a Springsteen song, you know.

I got the call of the wild. Plattsburgh is upstate, but it's a college town too, isn't it? Yeah. College and military base. I didn't realize there was military there. State University of New York. Yeah. No longer a military.

So one of the first things I learned early on was there's no security. Yeah. There's no job security, right? You're in the military and you think, you know, especially my father was a lifer, you know, there's no security. So the base just up and closed. Man. But they decided to stay.

So did he actually opt out of the military at that point then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That must have been like, I mean, jarring for him and the whole family. It was jarring for the whole family. And, you know, and then he started, you know, he was, he was a, he's a supporter. That's what he did. And so he took odd jobs and he worked as a security guard at the university. And then finally, we were a ski family at that time.

We were skiing because of upstate New York and he, um, the shop that we bought from was closing and my father took it over. So he, through high school, he owned a ski shop and we were heavy into it. And I was a national ski patrol and you know, so it was, that was kind of a, you know, a groovy, but weird, difficult time. Cause you know, my difficult time because my father was not a business man. He was just trying to figure stuff out. What I learned from him was never complain and figure stuff out. Yeah. But what a great thing to learn in an early age.

It's like stuff happens. You have no control over it. Yeah. You don't give up. You're just like, okay, so what's next? Yeah. Adapt or die. Yeah.

All right. So we know that you grew up in the Plasbrook area. You know, you were into skiing and all this other stuff. There would be, if I looked at your life right now, where does the James that's sort of like it's present and creative and progressive and provocative, does that start to show up at a really early age? You know, it's funny. People ask me about that type of question.

And I say, you know what? I was born to do this. Yeah. I was totally born to do this. The first two lines of my book say, we're all born wildly creative. Some of us just forgot. There were so many signs early on that I can remember when I was a kid was that I was called creative and it wasn't a compliment. It meant I disrupted. It meant I talked out of, yeah, weird, exactly weird. And it just, you know, again and again and again and again. And sometimes it was of a benefit. Most of the times it was a target, but I kept on. And like I said, you know, I went to a, basically a college prep high school run by the Brothers of Christian Instruction. And I was an alternate for the Air Force Academy. And thank God that didn't work out. So I was waiting tables in my hometown and being ski patrol on the weekend and whatever odd jobs I could do.

And the chef at the time in this tiny little Italian restaurant, his name was Gary Danko. And he now owns a restaurant named Gary Danko in San Francisco. It's one of the, you know, three, he's a two-star Michelin restaurant. One of the restaurants you can't get into. And we were sitting at the bar when I was, you know, 19. And he just said, Jimmy, go to New York. And I just did. I literally, like literally four days later, got on a bus with $300 and moved to New York. And ended up, I came here to study at the School of Visual Arts. And after about two years, a little over two years at SVA, an instructor took me aside and said, listen, this field is very competitive.

There are a lot of people looking for the same jobs. And he suggested I basically become a CPA or a golf pro. He just said, you know, you don't got it. You don't got it. Well, that's encouraging. Yeah, totally. So I literally, you know, day later, I dropped out of school, and I called my dad, and I said, hey, so I'm going to drop out of art school.

And he said, but I thought you wanted to be a fancy art director and have your name on the door. I said, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm going to get that. I'm just not going to finish school. And that's exactly what I did. And literally a week later, I walked into one of my professor's studios, who I'd already had some of a relationship with. His name was Paul Bacon. His studio was on the 11th floor of Carnegie Hall.

He was a book jacket designer. If you go to an antique bookstore, an old bookstore, and you start looking at the spines and you start looking at the – It's all him. Oh, my God. Joseph Heller's Catch-22, the Jaws that became the movie poster. It's like all these iconic – the Jaws that became the movie poster Cuckoo's Nest all of Joseph Heller, all of Kurt Vonnegut all of James Clavel, all of Robert Ludlum

you know, this stuff it was a tiny little three person studio and when I was in Paul's studio I just put together a portfolio of obviously fake book jackets and went out a girlfriend of mine had the name of an art director

at HarperCollins I think it was Harper and Row then, I think it's of mine had the, had the name of an art director at HarperCollins. I think it was Harper and Row then. I think it's HarperCollins now. I forget one of those two things, but called, got an appointment, left with work. And I've been working ever since. Just, just started. Man, it's a lot of your dad in you.

Yeah. Yeah. Just, just, yeah. You know, make it so. Yeah. Two conversations led to two profoundly different outcomes. One is a conversation when you're a kid, 19 years old, and go to New York, and you do it. You drop in 300 bucks, and you're there. And then this other conversation two years into SVA, where you go, like, you just don't have it.

And, like, within a matter of, you know, in the blink of an eye, you make a decision to change course. Still do that. Yeah. So interesting. So a couple of years ago, I had a chance to sit down actually with Milton Glaser to have a conversation. And he recounts a story of when he was in high school. He's really good at science and good at art.

And he was supposed to go take the test for Bronx science. But instead, he kind of snuck out and took a test for one of the art schools. And he came back, his guidance counselor kind of got word about what he did, called him in. He thought he was going to get a dressing down by the guidance counselor, sits him down, pulls out his drawer, puts on the table, sort of a beautiful box of, you know, like French pastel and says, you know, like do good art. And it was like this one moment where one conversation with a single person who he felt was on his side and could trust him that signal just a complete shift. Like, oh, I can do this.

Yeah. And I'm always fascinated by those moments and those conversations and how rapidly we can change course around them. Yeah. You know, it was funny when I was with Paul when I was in his studio and I never actually worked for Paul. I just hung out in his studio and like watched to become a book jacket designer.

And that was basically my first gigs was book jackets. And one of the first books I got to design was an autobiography of Ruth Gordon, the classic old movie actress, right? And in the first paragraph, she says, I love these words, when I was a kid, she basically said when she was 17, she walked into the first paragraph, she says, I love these words. When I was a kid, she basically said when she was 17, she walked into the elevator of, I forget what the address is,

but she's talking about Carnegie Hall. She said, I went up in the elevator and I had a meeting. And when I came down, I was a star. And it's like one of these things, you know, it was so funny. And then I busted my hump. And a bunch of years later, after I had dropped out of SVA, I started teaching there. And the reason I went back is one, because I had all these mentors who I looked up to, whether I knew them or not, European designers and, um, you know, Polish and French designers and American designers. And I knew they taught and I thought, oh, okay, that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to give back in some way. And I went back to SVA because I wanted to be

the teacher that I needed. I wanted to be the guy who, you know, lit a fire under your ass or, you know, or set firecrackers off, which I did, you know, set firecrackers off in class and just like, wake up. Yeah. I mean, the first time when you were, so when you were at SVA as a student, in those first two years before you actually had this conversation, I mean, what was your experience there? Was it what you thought it would be or what you wanted it to be? You know, it was funny. I kind of had a preconceived notion of art and design before I went there because an odd side story is when I was a kid, when I was 10, we lived outside of town and the school that I went to was in the town, tiny, you know, 20,000 people, but in the town. And I would get out of school, walk a couple blocks over to the college library where my mom worked and the there was like

an hour or 45 minutes before she got off work and could drive me home she knew i like to draw and she put books in front of me picture books and these picture books were design annuals from the 50s and 60s and 70s italian design annuals and graphiche annuals and print annuals. And I went through and I kind of got a through through almost almost osmosis, this design history education. And it was all European stuff, you know, where there was not terribly a sense of grid. It was much more painterly, much more artistic, much more artistic much more cassandra and cassad and capaello and so when i came to new york you know and we started there's a class on grids and a

class on color theory and a class on you know could do it this way that's not right and i thought am i in the right place you know i would i think i learned early on that I think the best way that I can phrase it is that and I felt like this most of my time commercially as a graphic designer, I'm a racehorse and I'm pulling a cart. You know, I want to I want to there's there's something in me that wants to fly and I'm I'm not doing it. I don't know why. And I don't you know, I never want I don't want that feeling. So it was OK okay that was the reason it was totally okay to be asked to leave yeah it was like you know what I think you know I think you're right right so it's like you're kind of getting signals the whole time oh yeah like

something so that was almost like the straw that brought the kettles back yeah yeah I think my oh that was a funny thing is my grades were atrocious so when I did go to you know I'm 20 years old in New York City and I've got it and I'm working full time to afford SBA. I'm making five bucks an hour. You know, I'm buying all the beer I need. What do I need school for? So I, the funny thing is, was, you know, he was, if I hadn't been thrown out of the nest, I don't know what would have happened. So it was okay. Yeah. You ever think about that? Like if you had actually just stayed that course? I think about those things often because there's

a number of times that I've been thrown out of the nest and sliding doors and I'm like, wait, why did I wait so long? You know, cause you, I think, I think if we are really in tune and we're really listening to ourselves and listening to our bodies, everything tells us. And I think, and this is part of the reason why the book comes out is like, I think we're really listening to ourselves and listening to our bodies. Everything tells us. And I think, and this is part of the reason why the book comes out is like, I think we're so resistant to listening to ourselves and so resistant to making the moves in our lives that we feel that we need that, you know, getting thrown out of the nest or rejection is,

is, is, is not as bad as people think. Yeah. What do you think that resistance is about? I mean, on some level it's fear, but,

but fear of what? Oh, totally. Just fear being who you are, being found out as a genius, being found out as a creative person. You know, it's like we're all covering it up somehow. Even me, who I'm like, I just, you know, I just want to fly. Come on, come on, come on. Even me, I find when I, I know when I pull back and when I'm like, really, do you want to, you know, it's really funny. Even for, you know, if I'm on stage and, you know, I've got, you know, I've got some sit, some gigs coming up in, you know, Barcelona and Dublin with 2,500, 4,000 people. And then once in a while I'm talking and there's this little voice going, you're going to say that out loud in public, really?

You sure? You know, you know. It's like they picked the wrong person. Yeah. I'm here for the comedic reprieve. I'm not a main speaker. I mean, it's amazing how long that follows all of us.

Right. So it's so hard to, I mean, I don't think you ever get rid of it. It's just something that follows you and you just gotta, you have to get comfortable with it. Yeah. I think you're,

I mean, there's, um, you ever read, uh, I forgot these two, uh, makers that for a while, I may even still be with it. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, there's, you ever read, I forgot, there's two makers that have, for a while, may even still be out there, started his website and then a beautiful magazine called The Great Discontent. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tina and Ryan. And, you know, like, it's this idea that, you know, like, this discontent just is perpetually there. And, you know, the greatest X in any field are never like, oh yeah, I'm meant to be here. Like I made it. Like this is, it's almost like there's this persistent, pervasive and like unending discontent that fuels you on some level. Yeah. I think one of the things that I've gotten pretty good at is teaching people how to jump. Most people think, okay, what, okay, like this is what I'm going to do, I'm going to work for like four more years and pay off my car. And then I'm like, no, you're not. No, you're not actually.

You can think that, but you know, but yeah, that, that, that the jump is hard. You know, all beginnings are hard. And I think that's what stops most people is, is they don't, they can see the first step and they want the second and the third and they can't have it until they take the first step. Right. You know, you don't know what's going to happen until you, until you leave. And I, I left SVA and literally two days later I had a, you know, I had a, a full-time mentor who I could just stand and watch over his shoulder and see the work he was doing and, and, and, and ask him questions about, you know, the work and overhear the

telephone conversations. And it was a, it was a real treat. So when you have that conversation with somebody and the goal is to teach them how to jump, what is that conversation like? Um, you know, I've gotten used to saying that it's not my job. It's not my place to tell anybody anything, right? I can't tell you what to do. I can't tell, but I can remind you and I can remind you of your gift and I can remind you of your talent and I can remind you of the innate power in those things and that you won't fall and you won't fail,

you know, not in the longterm, you know, and I have to kind of remind people and only those, only those people who only those, only those people who, who, who can really look inside and can really believe are the ones who are going to, you know, going to do it. And I've got a track record of some, just, just some marvelous people who I keep in touch with, you know, weekly, if not daily, because of, you know, social media now. And just to see the moves that they're making, and it's just like, dang, that's so great. Yeah. So it's interesting. So if you can look inside and believe that's, that see the moves that they're making, it's just like, dang, it's so great. Yeah. So it's interesting. So if you can look inside and believe, that's the thing that you're striving for, which when you get further into your career and you start to develop in your body of work, you start to create iterations where you're proving to yourself, your own output starts to prove to yourself that, yes, I had this capacity.

That's easier at that point. How do you get that in the really early days? Yeah. You know, that level of freedom is, is stolen. That level of freedom is taken. You know, I was a, you mentioned Milton. Um, I was a book jacket designer. Just, that's what I was doing. And I really wanted to do albums. That was back when they were still 12 and a quarter, 12 and a quarter. And that was like the best stuff in the world. And you could make them fold out to the larger, you know? So I wanted to do albums and I wanted to do this and I wanted to do that. And I called Milton and I made an appointment and he said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Book jackets. He said, yeah. He said, yeah, we should do like four or five of those a day in the day. He said, yeah. And if you're not careful, you're going to wake up and five years from now, you're still going to be doing book jackets. And I was like, yeah, so I see. And for me, the break was 1992. I was, you know, 29.

And the Columbus Day was coming up in the city here. And the newspapers were talking about all the celebrations and the parade and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I knew a little bit about American history. And I knew about the pox and flusted blankets. And I knew about the, you know, the kind of early controversy then. Now everybody knows about it. And I thought, well, that other side needs to be told. And, you know, I'm a graphic designer and I'm interested in the almost journalistic properties of design that you can be a journalist as much as that you can, that you can put your voice and your opinion into your work.

So I made, uh, made a poster, you know, full size 24, 36, the same size as all the advertising posters in the city and used my own money and printed 5,000 posters and took them to the, the, um, stage door at Lincoln center at a certain time at night. And that's when the guys, the poster mafia come by and they put them in the back of the van. And I got posters put up in, you know, all over the city, used my rent money, which was not a good business plan, but got it done, baby. Got it done. That was like the really, really early form of like Instagram. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, dude, I totally wish Instagram was around that then just for a day. And, um, I made that poster and then I, you know, I was interested,

like I said, I still had the memories of being 10 and 11 looking at this European stuff. And I sent my, you know, I sent it off to all these European competitions and I started getting in and started, you know, winning medals and, um, and being alongside these names that I knew about. And that was the whole next thing. It just, there was a level these names that I knew about. And that was the whole next thing. It just, there was a level of bravery that that brought me. And what I had done is I realized that I had started out as a commercial graphic designer doing book jackets. But what I found through starting to do social, cultural, political posters was I found my

purpose. My purpose was to make graphic design that had an opinion, make graphic design that had a voice that the things that I love and things that I fear are possibly things that other people love and fear. Right. And it was just a, it was just a real trip. And that's what I try to teach other people is once you get a taste of that, you don't want to let go. And that's a good feeling. You know, once you're, once you're like, wow, I can actually, I don't know if I can make a living at this, but people dig it. And that's the first part.

Yeah. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

I mean, it's interesting also because I think, especially in the design world, the art world, there's this sense that first I need to develop my skill to a point where I'm good enough to go out and get this attention. And skill is one thing. But the thing that I keep hearing you say is, well, yeah, that matters. And yeah, you did a lot of work and a lot of iterations to develop a certain thing. But at the same time, it was really about understanding what mattered to you and developing the voice underneath that. Because all the skill in the world won't make up for not having a distinct voice, not having a point of view. Yeah, yeah. Somebody wrote me today. I put out something through Instagram and somebody wrote me and said, dude, I can't wait to get your book.

And I just want to be as brave as you. And I, and I wrote back and I said, why are you waiting? What are you waiting for? That's, you know, we're waiting, waiting for an invitation, waiting for permission, waiting for our skills to be, Oh, you know, I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I've done some, you know, no baby, just go, just go. You know, we, there is no, there's no secret handshake. There's no entry fee. You just, well, the entry fee is, yeah, lose your fear. Yeah, lose your said and done now. I mean, if it was that easy, we'd all be out there sharing like the essence of what's inside of all of us.

Yeah, and then, you know, you get the old, you know, well, if everybody was creative, the world would be anarchy. And I'm like, yeah, I know. It's going to be a little bit crazy. You listeners should see the smile right now. If everybody was like me, oh, my we, yeah, we'd be in trouble. Yeah. But it is really interesting. So I think we are so waiting for someone to give us permission to just be us publicly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. It's just human. Yeah. But again, it goes back to that fear thing. And, you know, like you said, it's fear of actually being who you are. It's the fear of uncovering who you are and putting it out there. Like, you know, it's like you just opening your shirt and say, hey, this is who I am. And what you're prognosticating is failure and what you're prognosticating is people pointing and laughing.

But what's going to happen is, yes, some of that will happen because we are not made for everyone. I know that my work doesn't appeal to everybody. It just appeals to the sexy people. So I don't really worry about that. But, yes, the fear of divulging who we actually are. Yeah. I think it's so much easier to hide behind the voice, the opinion, the brand, whatever it is, the lines, the words, the images of somebody else. Because even if we don't execute that well, then whatever pushback we get, we can just kind of say, well, it wasn't my part of it that they're rejecting.

It was all this other stuff. Whereas if we put it out there and this is the essence of who we are, you know, like whatever rejection comes back to us, they're rejecting us. Yeah. You can't blame it on marketing. Right. You can't say that, yeah, the marketing made a mistake. Numbers were wrong. And yeah, it does hurt.

It does. But we need to practice that. We need to, we need to practice that. We need to practice pooping. You know, everybody, everybody makes crap. I, I make a ton of crap. Um, but I always put it out there and, you know, and, and I'm surprised when some of it rises to the top, some of it actually isn't as poopy as I thought. But yes, if we take it personally, then it can be painful. And I think that probably stops a lot of people from being themselves. And that's what gets, you know, as people go back to a full-time job because there's a level of security and comfort there.

Yeah. I mean, you've got to kind of ask the question also, what hurts more, the pain of being judged for who you are or the pain of being seen for who you are? Yeah. Yeah. Or the pain of knowing you're a racehorse and you're pulling a card. Yeah.

Because that's forever. That's the thing is like when is that pain, when are you going to – so speaking of pain, so like I had mentioned earlier, I had this dirt bike accident just, you know, eight weeks ago. And I'm living in pain constantly right now. And it has been such an amazing teacher. And I'm, when I go on stage now, I talk about it because this pain that I'm living with, if I don't conquer it, if I don't understand it properly, if I don't use it as a tool and as my best teacher right now, like my, my wife helps me tremendously and helps me get, get perspective. And she said,

she said, um, so I broke, you know, a collarbone, uh, hurt one of my lungs and broke 10 ribs all on my right side. And my wife said, she said, baby, your heart needed to grow and your body made way. You know, and if I don't use that idea and understand that and grow bigger and better and stronger out of this thing, then the accident was stupid and the pain was just pain. And why I'm talking about this on stage is I say, listen, you have a choice like me. You have pain. It's not physical pain.

It's this relationship that chafes. It's this body that you're uncomfortable with. It's your inability to ask for what you're worth. It's this job that you're in that you want to get out but you don't know how. Or you want to quit your job or you want to talk out, but you don't know how, or you want to quit your job, or you want to talk to your boss. These are all pains. And if you don't conquer those, if you don't use those as a tool and grow bigger from them, every day, every year, your body will contort and get smaller and more fearful. So that's why I promote living

dangerously, living and facing that pain and going into it all the time because you just get good at it. It's really crazy. You get good at it. Yeah. It's like a habit. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit like, you know, like being Alex Honnold, right?

The free climber. The free climber. Oh, my God. Look at what he does. It's like that. Yeah. For those who don't know, he climbs massive, massive. He climbed Yosemite without ropes or equipment.

Or a surfer, to take that metaphor. It's just like, you know, you go, fear notwithstanding. And what happens is when you get past that, you get past the break where you're not getting pummeled, and you can float for a minute. You're like, oh, my God, this is awesome. This is awesome. And it's the same exact emotions just to ask for what you're worth or set up a meeting for your boss and say, hey, listen, I'm not happy. What can we do?

You know, and, and, and, you know, and, and, and you're not quitting. You're not, you're just talking, you know, to talk is to love. Yeah. I mean, I feel like also in addition to this sort of like fear, there's a certain amount of sort of cultural grooming that goes along with not being that person. You know, the Aussies would call it tall poppy syndrome, but a lot of times here, even it's like, you know, you, you play the hand, you're dealt or, you know, like you get what you get and you don't get upset. It's like, look, things are pretty good. You know, you,

who are you to be the one who sort of like goes and does that. Even if there's a voice inside of you that says, Oh my, you know, like you said, there's, you're the racehorse pulling the cart. Like you just know there is something inside of you that says, you know, you are, you are meant for something profoundly different and bigger. Yeah. But then there's a cultural voice that very often a lot of us who have grown up around this is so. Yeah. Yeah.

No, it's huge and it's strong. And I think so many of our fears, in order to just live a creative life, so many of our fears are based on other people. Totally based on other people, totally based on other people. You know, I mean, I, you know, I'm, I'm back here in New York and I see people walking down the street and I see some very flamboyant, very amazing. And, you know, I'm at, you know, in, in, in Texas, we don't see as much, but, um, and I'm like, oh my God, that's so awesome. That level of, I mean, I just want to stop with all everybody and have a conversation and say, you know, so what level of fear do you have right now? Like, are you afraid that people

are going to, you know, and it's, it's just so great. And it's not for everybody. It can't be, it just can't be. Yeah. I mean, it seems like also for you there, you've got an insane level of curiosity. Yeah. I mean, it seems like that's like fuel for you. It seems like you're constantly scanning the world and just raising an eyebrow. Yeah. I'm always looking to up the ante. Yeah. I'm always looking for, you know, there was a couple, somebody paid me a nice compliment

last night at dinner and they said, you know, what they liked about me is that I was, I was the one who was always willing to just change. Just, you know, like, you know, the Texas, for example, going to Texas or, you know, change careers, stop being a commercial designer and just start doing, you know, more, doing more teaching or doing, you know, all these different things. And, you know, I, I don't think of it. I don't even think about that. I just do it.

I'm like, something's calling, got to go. You know? And I think that's a, you know, again, that's something that you can practice and something you get very good at is just listening to yourself. Yeah. And still, if you zoom the lens out, you know, and you look at your body of work over the last 35, 40 years now, um, do you see a through line or some? Yeah, I do. I do. I do, and I see the same thing now that I saw in the early days, which was I see an artist searching for his voice. An artist searching for radical new marks on the page that will stir someone's soul. You know, Robert Frost once wrote that he wanted to write a poem that was barbed,

this whole idea of how it would stick in your heart. I'm like, oh, that's what I want. I'm working on a new project right now for Tulane University, and I know the client, so again, there's a level of freedom. And I'm searching. I'm back in the studio, and I haven't worked this curiously or strenuously in a while where I'm really searching for something new. And it's

a blast. It's also tiring. I'm like, God, I haven't worked this hard. It's like, man, going there takes a lot out of you. Yeah. That's not right. Do it again. That's not right. Do it again. So as you're out there in the world,

putting out work and you know, like you said, sort of like the big opening move after, you know, like when you hit 29 is the posters and that sort of unlocks a whole world of activism and tons of other posters and art and it's unlocked a reputation too, which was, was cool as not just, I mean, as a provocateur. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you go out in the world and, and your, did you feel at that point when you were putting that initial round of posters out, like that you were doing something radically different or this was just the next evolution of what you were up to? You know, I don't know if I was even that conscious about what I was doing. It was just, I was just doing it, you know, and there were a whole bunch of situations that came up.

It was like two or three years, maybe three or four years that where all these situations were coming up and I made work. And then I used that work and I sent it off to the, you know, Amnesty International and the JDL and the NAACP. And so that created more work and more provocative work. And again, got me more addicted to that, you know, and I, I just,

I wanted to be, you know, then, you know, Banksy. I'm like, Hey, this is,

this is cool. Now, if I could just figure out how to make a living doing it, which was the big, the big problem.sy. I'm like, Hey, this is, this is cool. Now, if I could just figure out how to make a living doing it, which was the big, the big problem. Yeah. I mean, what was, I don't know if you can answer this, but was the source of the addiction more the expression and the reaction or just yes? Like, do you have a sense? Yeah. That I could sit quietly under a tree or at a bar and come up with – I can make myself laugh. That's the process.

That's the process. I sit and I make myself laugh or I come up with something and I go, oh, this is something. And then the second thought says, they'll never do it. And then I present it and they do it. And it's just like, whoa, okay, that's cool. You know, literally I did this hangman poster for the NAACP a bunch of years ago. And from the time they wrote me and they had seen work that I had done and they asked me to be involved in this documentary film. So I made the poster for the documentary film.

And we were on press literally 13 days after I got that letter because it happened so quick. I brought one comp in and they said, that's amazing. Let's do that. And then I went on press. And while I'm on press, my liaison liaison the client came over and said well it's a good thing we're printing this now because back in the office they're saying well maybe you know because that's that that's the process and they start looking at it and they start going um you know that's that and i understand because a client like that they get their money from little old

ladies in schools and donations and you don't want you know, you don't want to upset anybody. But if you don't, especially for something like NAACP or AIDS or AIDS activism or any of this important stuff, we're trying to change the world. You're trying to really, you know, really tell the truth here. We're not, you know, we're not going to do that by making everybody happy. Yeah. Or by moving slow and making decisions by committee. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've, I've had, I've had so many meetings with clients and I was saying, Hey, by the way, my work does not survive a committee. So if you bring in a committee,

basically there's just going to be a big hole that says art goes here, which sadly is how a lot of campaigns actually are. It's like, let's build the whole thing and then let's find somebody to plug this hole. Yeah. A pretty photograph. Yeah. Even if it's somebody in pain, it's still a pretty photograph. With a little bit of engramas.

Yeah. Yeah. Serendipity is a word that keeps coming into my head as I'm hearing you speak. It's a good word. It's because it seems like, you know, when you look back, you're like, oh, well, there's this clear progression. But it sounds like living it, you know, in the moment and moving forward through your life,

that so much of this was holding yourself open to just the next thing and the next thing and the next thing without intentionally saying, I'm going to seek this. Is that right or wrong? Yeah, I think, I think every number of years I get to a point where I need to, you know, where I look around and I'm like, it's the David, you know, it's the David Byrne song, you know, the Talking Heads song, actually, you know, this is not my beautiful house. I wake up, I wake up, I wake up and I've gotten comfortable and And if that happens and I go, oh, I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, you know, and I can see it in the relationships I'm in and I can see it in the work I'm getting.

I can see it in the, in the financial bottom line. I can see it everywhere that I'm like, oh, okay. I'm, I'm not, I'm becoming, I don't know, comfortable. So, so I need to, you know, I need to resist that and I need to creatively push and I need to figure out what, what is going to, you know, what is going to make me happy. So there's a, there's a, there's a guy who I work with. He's a, a mentee or a student or guest or whatever. And we started talking to him a year ago and he says, he says, James, I went to school for this. I got a degree. I got the job.

I've got a 401k, bought a house, got two kids, got to put down some money on a summer place. And he says, I drive home from work crying every night. What's wrong? And, you know, I'm like, well, listen, you know, the first thing is happy. That's what we got to figure out, you know, how to make you happy. And it's not quitting. It's not. And I think that's, that's the thing for a lot of people is there, if you are born wildly creative and you understand that, that doesn't die, you know, meaning, you know, you know, that you have a song left to sing.

That is, it's really painful to, to understand that and not live that out. So you need to make some massive decisions and try to fix that. And I think that happens to me. It's happened to me, I consciously know of two times. You know, when I was in my mid-30s and then, you know, my early 40s, when I had just like, boom, break. Was there an inciting incident those two times? or was it just kind of like you woke up one day? Like, was there something that happened?

Something that happened? No, it was just kind of like one. It was funny. There was I was just thinking about it recently because I've just planted a big, a big red bud tree at the house. I like them. And I had planted the red bud at another house and fall came. I think it was 1999 or something.

And fall came. And I walked out on the porch in the morning with a cup of coffee. And I can see the leaves falling off the redbud. And tears literally started coming out. And I'm like, oh, I wasn't doing a good job. And I couldn't continue it. We couldn't continue it. Yeah. I mean, I think that's one of the things that a lot of people

get really concerned about also when they hit that moment that you're talking about and they know, you know, it's the story you just described as the person with the 401k, the great job, the salary, the security, and they go home and cry every day. And on paper, everything's okay. And in fact, they're American, right? And a lot of their life is decent. Maybe they have somebody great in their life or kids. And they stay in that thing because they're terrified that blowing up that thing isn't just blowing up that thing. It's blowing up their entire lives. And there are a moment in their lives where they're not willing to do that, where a lot is good. So they say, I'm going to suffer here in the name of still being okay here, not realizing that everything bleeds together.

Yeah. Yeah. They're afraid that if they take this one little, if they fix this one little piece that everything else, it's Jenga and everything else is going to toggle down. And I've been there a number of times where I'm like, okay, if I do this, if I say no to this client, then that's going to mean I'm not making that money. And that's going to mean this thing doesn't happen. That's going to mean my wife and kid are going to leave me. And that's going to mean, you know, just spirals down to, you know, you know, the Sam Peckinpah death where you're dying, you know, in a trailer in the desert, you know, and it's not true. It's not true.

You have to go into it open-eyed and logically and, you know, and believing. And that's the thing. We come back to that. You have to believe that it's for a good purpose, you know, and the purpose is your life. The purpose is just your mere happiness. We'll get to creativity later. Let's just deal with happiness right now. What can we do that? What can you do in your life? You know, if you have the energy and the, you know, the, the balls to do, what can we do? That's going to make, you know, and we have to break his,

break the job apart and say, well, okay, what part of the job are you, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think you can deconstruct the job and sometimes also it's like, okay, so even if you're not willing to do that right now, you've got a couple hours on the weekend. You've got like time here. Sure. Like if this thing is really, if this beats your heart, do more of it wherever you can. Yeah. You know, I usually start by saying, where are you at five o'clock in the morning?

Yeah. And they say, I'm in bed. I'm like, well, no longer, buddy. Right, right, right. What are you willing to sacrifice? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, an hour of sleep? Come on. Right. What are you willing to sacrifice? You know, an hour of sleep? Come on.

Right. What are you willing to sacrifice? Yeah. How much do you want it? That's it. That's the test. How much do you want it? That's what it comes down to, right?

And also, do you believe that you can get it? Do you believe that if you actually put in the effort, it will happen? Which I think a lot of people don't. Yeah. Well, they don't because they don't have the experience. They haven't tried it. Yeah. That's the, that's the, that's the, that, well, they don't, because they haven't, they don't have the experience. They haven't tried it. That's all. And then I think what happens, especially when you're past 30, then you realize, then you, then you even, I think that feeling of I can't becomes even stronger, which is crazy.

You know, and people, you know, people write me all the time and say, well, you know, I don't think I could. I'm like, dude, I am zigging and zagging. And I'm like, you know, 20 years older than you. What's your what's your problem? I got two kids. I got a kid in college. I got two kids in private school. I got, you know, two other people I'm supporting.

Give me a break. Yeah. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

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It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. I think we get locked into that thing. And I mean, this happens in design, happens in writing, happens in any form of creative expression especially. But in probably any career, you know, you get known as the X person.

You know, whether it's a style or an expertise or like you're the person who does this thing in this way. And that's why we want to keep paying you to do it. And in fact, if you work for a large organization, very often that is in fact what they want of you. For some people, maybe you're good with that. Maybe that's the thing that just happens to intersect with, you know, like the sweet spot that, you know, gives you a sense of purpose and expression and engagement. But, you know, or maybe it does for a window of time. But then like most human beings, like we don't stay static. So when you start to evolve away from that thing that, you know, other people want you to continue to do and pay you to keep doing, you know, very often I have a feeling that for a lot of people, we start being pretty good there, but we grow as human beings over time. And then 10 years later, you know, like we realize we're not actually that person anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where the,

and so it's like, it's, it seeps in slowly. Yeah. Well, it's funny. One of the, one of the things I have to tell people early on is this, hey, this, listen, they come to me and they say, okay, here's a situation at my job. And I have to say, okay, let's back up. That's not your job. You're sitting in a chair, probably a chair someone else should be sitting in. You know, it's not who you are. It's just where you are right now. So let's, let's talk about that. You know, they thought they're, they're like welded in, you know. I'm like, well, that's, you know, it's just not true. Don't worry about that. And there are a million

jobs out there. If you want a J-O-B, it's, you know, having a job is easy. You just show up and punch a clock. But yeah, identifying with and, you know, and Jonathan, even further is identifying with that job and that thing that HR told you, but identifying with the pain that comes along with that and saying, you know, this is who I am.

This is what I carry, you know, and and for for me, because I'm talking about physical pain now, I call it what I've got. I call it my cruising pain. It's like I can sit here and have a nice conversation with you. I can get back and get in a cab. I can do you know, I can I can move around, but I'm still in pain. So we, we, you know, what happens is if, if we start to identify with that pain and it becomes us, you know, where I, I get used to doing everything slowly and I get used to, so I'm not doing my rehab and I'm not stretching my nervous system. I'm not, you know, not doing the work. Yeah. It becomes a downward spiral. Yeah, totally. And then we live a contorted life

and a lot of people live a contorted life. You know, they've melded into a gray cubicle. Yeah. Yeah. Am I bumming you out completely? No, because I'm fascinated by these questions. And I'm fascinated by people who have hit moments in their lives where like, oh, you know, I'm three quarters down that spiral, but I didn't realize it, but something's for some reason,

I just awakened to the fact. And there's actually something that I can do to reverse my way back out of it. And maybe not blow everything up right now. Maybe it's small, little tiny baby steps. Maybe it's the 5am thing, but there is, I think the awakening is always,

there is something that I can do. There's a guy who, he's in Barcelona, but I, he, I would mentor him every, we had a, every two week situation and we'd have a, we'd have a Skype for an hour and he had a screenplay in him. And I was like, dude, his name is Bruno. What are you doing at five o'clock in the morning? He's like, Oh, okay. Literally Jonathan, three months later, four months later, we get on the thing and he's smiling.

He's holding up a stack of paper and he's like, this is it. I'm like, what do you, what is that? He says, I wrote a screenplay every morning at five o'clock. I got up and I did it. He's like, I could have never, he says, I've been sitting on this for three years. I'm like, okay, now what? Because now, you know, that's the hard part. That's the hard part.

He's realized he had a voice and he did the work. But now the hard part is now you got to show it. Now you got to get it out into the world. You're going to, you know, that's where the fear comes in. You know, all beginnings are hard because they're all based on, okay, what's going to happen? Yeah. It's the public side that really terrifies us. And we live in fear.

A lot of us are afraid to divulge who we are because we live in fear that someone may not like it. And I got to tell you, baby, somebody's not going to like it. That's just how it works. You can't be for everybody. Modern advertising wants to be for everybody. That's why they don't say anything or can't say anything, can't have an opinion. So when you go back to SVA as a teacher, what do you want to do?

What are you trying to accomplish by going back there? When I went back, like I said, I wanted to be the guy who lit fires. And it took me a number of years. I got comfortable and I was bringing in all these ideas that I like to play with. And all these ideas from one of my mentors, a Polish designer named Henrik Tomaszewski, who he worked in Warsaw as a teacher in the 50s and 60s and 70s. And he was just – he said, I didn't know how to teach.

So I was trying to teach people how to think. So I was using his assignments and I was using my own ideas. And after a couple of years, I realized, oh my God, I'm teaching as a third year instructor at the School of Visual Arts and I'm not teaching graphic design because I'm not teaching form or color or what it looks like. I decided my students know I didn't care what it looked like. I cared what it looks like. I decided, my students know I didn't care what it looked like. I cared what it said. And they knew that in a crit situation,

if there was a piece on the wall and maybe it had some stones on it with some words, you know, words on the stone or something. And all the students know that whosoever that was, and like say, we were going to see Anna. Okay, Anna, tell us about it. And she says, well, when I was a kid, everybody knew right there, it was just like going to be gold.

When I was a kid, my father took me to the beach every summer. We never even went to the water. We just walked up and down the beach and we collected rocks. And here's why. And I was like, oh, my God, you got me. You got me. That's awesome. And what would happen is the students would have a revolt eventually.

And they'd say, but I know we're doing this thing and we're trying to tell our own stories and we're trying to, you know, put our voice and our opinion into our work. But they said, but if it's so particular to me, how is it going to have meaning to other people? And I'd say, you know, what matters to you matters to other people.

In the particular lies the universal. You know, the more honest a filmmaker can be in divulging the truth about the story you know the more memorable the film is going to be the more meaning it's going to have and and that's just how it works you know in any kind of storytelling those are the good stories where we can see we see ourselves in it it could be a story about a dog who dies and you'll be crying like a baby you don't even have a dog but you understand that idea of loss you know yeah i mean it's like uh i once heard uh i think it was mary carr who said a great memoir you know it's not what happened to the writer it's how what happened to the writer

changed them and it's like we can all transfer into a moment that changes us in some way shape or form sounds like you were you went back to be the teacher you didn't have when you were at SVA. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally did.

And I was super lucky that the chairman, Richard Wild, allowed me to. And SVA basically stayed off my back and let me do my thing and knew that my class was popular. And, you know, I think, you know, the flip side of this, Jonathan, is that I would tell my students, listen, I'm doing you a disservice. Because when you leave here, you're going to have debt. And the school would like you to pay off your debt or pay off your parents' debt. And I say, I don't care about that. Somehow debt gets paid off. Student loans get paid off somehow. Um, and how you, you know, I would also run a class on money and say, just remember this stuff. But I'd say, um, most people, when they leave school,

they get all hopped up on creativity and they take a job. And in order to pay off their debt, they choose slavery and not creativity. So why don't you, when you get out of here, why don't you take a chance and tell the world that you believe in yourself? Take a chance on getting paid for your creativity, getting paid for why you were here in the first place instead of just taking a job. And then when the wind blows, you take another job and the wind blows, you take another job. You know what I mean? Just like go through this, this, this meaningless process, you know, take a chance and, and, and, and put your creativity to a test.

What was the reaction when you said that? Oh, you know, then they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Graduation day. You know, then they're like, yeah, yeah. It is. Congratulations. You know, I am Spartacus. But it's funny because they would come to me and they'd say, hey, James, I got this awesome job at this internet startup and they're going to pay me, you know, $60,000 out the gate. And I said, that's awesome. And I said, and you're going to come see me in a year.

And they would. They'd come see me in a year. And they would, they'd come see me in a year and they're like, I hate my job, but I bought an apartment. So now I'm stuck. Yeah. That is, we lock ourselves in. Yeah. Yeah. The golden handcuffs, right? Yeah. A couple of years down the road, MoMA calls you up. More than a couple of years, actually. Yeah. Yeah. For those that don't know, MoMA, Museum of Modern Art in New York City, this legendary institution that says, hey, we want you here. We want to put your pictures up in this space. It is like, what did that mean to you when they said that to you? Yeah, you know, it was funny because they contacted me and they said, you know, we want, you know, 10 pieces for our permanent collection. And they said, oh, and we're redesigning the third floor and we're going to have, you know, we would like to put five of them up, you know, as an exhibition.

And I'm like, oh, a small James Victoria show at the Museum of Modern Art. That would be nice. Yeah, it was, it was, it was groovy, you know, and it's funny what I do, the way I tell it to people now, and they're like, when they bring it up, and I'm now, now I've got like, I've got like my get in, my get in free card and everything, my lifelong membership and all that kind of stuff, you know, well, all that kind of stuff. I know that's it. That's it.

That's all I have. And people are like, wow, that must be amazing. I said, yeah, you know what? The other day I was going down into the subway and I didn't have any money on my card. So I just jumped the turnstile and these two cops come up to me and I, I, I said, whoa, whoa, go guys, guys, it's, it's cool. I'm in the MoMA. And everybody's like, really? I'm like, no, it just, it doesn't mean anything. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's cool. It's another level of bravery that it gives me. But, yeah, it doesn't buy me a sandwich or – That's not why you do it.

Yeah, it's not. It's nice. It's not why I do it. And you know that little side story where they called me and we were having a conversation. And I said, oh, is there a gala event that I may attend with my wife? And they said, no, we don't do that. I said, I said, is there a trophy? Do I get like a plaque that says James Victoria?

They said, no, we don't do that. I said, well, is there a is there a letter? Do I get an official letter with like a gold emblem of the moment? They said, no, we don't do that. And I said, well, could you do it for my mom? Because she'd really appreciate that. And I shit you not, 10 days later in the mail, dear James Victoria's mom, a letter.

It was so great. That's like better than everything else. So better than everything. Like any accolades, forget them in the moment. It's like that letter is everything. Yeah, and then I immediately sat down and made a new thing to talk about, which is, you know, ask for more. Yeah.

Ask for what you want. You know, if you want a pony, ask for a unicorn, you know, ask for what you want. It's, it works. Yeah. I mean, so much of this conversation I feel like is, is about being uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, it's funny because in the back of my mind, I've got, again, the little voices

in the back of my mind, I'm sitting here talking, I'm sitting here today talking to John Biffin Fields on the Good Life Project. And yeah, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about, you're asking me these questions and bringing me back to these places. And I'm like, Ooh, yeah, that was uncomfortable. But it was where I needed to be. Where I needed to be. Yeah.

But like you put yourself in this position. Sure. You constantly, almost like when you didn't feel it, you did what you needed to do to put yourself back in that space. And that's where the magic happens. And that's where the fear happens. And that's where the magic happens. Yeah. And that's where the fear happens and that's where it all happens.

But, you know, and it's also a level of commitment. You're telling the universe that you're going to do this. I'm all in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Again, how much do you want it? How much do you want it? It's always a test. So books. You've written a few and your new one, Effect Perfection. Worst title in the world, by the way.

Can't say it, can't spell it. I tell people, they say, oh, what's the title of your book? I'm like, Vector Perfuction. They're like, what? What? What is it? I'm like, yeah.

But again, that's what I do, man. I just put myself in this situation and say, you know what? It's going to be fine. Don't worry about it. So what's interesting about this book to me also is for lack of a better category, this is personal growth. This is a book about how you live your life, about how you look at the world, about how you take action, about how you move through all these things that we're talking about. It's not a book about design.

No. But it is a book about design. But it's really a book about, you know, this is, I mean, it sounds like this is your version of, you know, like, here, go live this way. At least this is what's worked for me. Why did you feel it's important to put this book out now? It's my think and grow rich with pictures. Yeah. Oh, damn.

I got to write Chronicle right now. Think and grow rich with pictures. That's how we sell it. A sticker. A sticker on the book now. Think and Grow Rich with pictures. That's how we sell it. A sticker. A sticker on the book. The Think and Grow Rich with pictures. Yeah. I mean, why this book and why now?

Why now is because it's the book I need. It's like, so, you know, you talk about being uncomfortable and, you know, I put myself in these situations. But I need constant reminders. I don't, I'm not the kind of guy who wakes up out of bed, cheery and, you know, you know, I need, it takes work and it takes an effort. And, um, until I met, uh, Laura, my wife, I thought I was, um, low maintenance and I realized I'm high maintenance, high reward, baby, high reward. Um, it, it takes a lot. And, uh, when I was at SVA and I was going through all these, you know, students would come in and they'd be, they would be like,

Oh, I'm so angry. Somebody, you know, bumped me on the train and I'd say, okay, listen, you have a choice of how you react to that. And out of all the choices, you chose that one. You chose to like ruin your own day because so so like all these lessons were things that I started using when I would speak or when I would teach workshops and stuff. And I was like, you know what? These have been great tools for me. I am having and have had a great creative life know, creative life. And I need to share them. You know, my career calling right now is less of a commercial designer, but I want to be of service to others.

Recently, I said something out loud that I didn't know I said out loud, which was kind of awesome. And I said, I want to be Moses for creative people. I want to set them free. I just got this image of you, like in like robes with little tablets. In a T-square with like badass drawings. Yeah, yeah, drawings.

Like chiseled out. You know, being creative is not easy. Leading a creative life is not easy. And I would like to be of service. I would like to help people understand their creativity, understand the power of their voice, understand that their life is basically that arc of the journey of the hero, the Joseph Campbell thing. Because the book goes from, you know, finding your voice all the way through to having a purpose, which is the best thing. You know, when you have a purpose, then you can get out of bed in the morning and, you know, get shit done at 5 o'clock or 4.30, you know. So I've got, side note, I've gotten so good that it's 4.30 now, by the way.

Just, you know, I don't want to, you know, up the ante for anybody, but just, you know, if you want to keep up. Being that Moses, your purpose these days? Yeah. Yeah. And I enjoy it. I love it. I love it. You know, when I was at SVA, when I was teaching there, the students would always say, why

is it that you say the opposite of all the other instructors? And I didn't really have a good answer. And I don't know if I still have a good answer, but, but I would say, listen, there's a spectrum, you know, I'm over here and their way over here and you're going to find your way. You're, you're somewhere in there. You might be closer to that. You might be closer to this, but you, you know, let's just learn from everybody. Yeah. Find what resonates with you. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, you know, and even, you know, always, always learn from everybody and learn from every situation. Just always be a student. Yeah. And get behind that. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle. So if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? is to relax and accept who you are and relax and accept your creativity

because it's put there for a purpose. And if you can learn to listen to it, it's a great guide. It will serve you well. Thank you. You bet, man. This is a blast. Thank you so much for listening. You bet, man. This is a blast. Thank you so much for listening.

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conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot him we need him y'all need a pilot flight risk the apple watch series 10 is here it has the biggest display ever it's also the thinnest apple watch ever making it even more comfortable on your wrist whether you're running swimming or sleeping and it's the fastest charging apple watch getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared

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