Good Life Project - How to Identify & Heal Your Origin Wound (we all have them) | Vienna Pharaon

Episode Date: February 13, 2023

What if you were, unknowingly being controlled by unresolved pain from your past, even minor, or momentary experiences, ones that took root and, from that moment on, without you having any idea, limited everything from your relationships to your health, work, wealth, and life? We all encounter unresolved pain from our past, or what my guest today, New York therapist and author of the new book The Origins of You: How Breaking Family Patterns Can Liberate the Way We Live and Love, Vienna Pharaon, calls origin wounds. But most of us don't realize they’re even there, so we just keep repeating patterns that lead to unhappiness, having no idea what’s really stopping us from feeling more connected and alive. Even if we do recognize them, understanding and dealing with them can be a difficult and intimidating process. I love how practical, strategic, and tool-oriented Vienna is in her approach. I opened my eyes to such much, maybe it’ll do the same for you.You can find Vienna at: Website | Instagram | “What’s Your Origin Wound” quizIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Bessel van der Kolk about resolving trauma.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED: We’re looking for special guest “wisdom-seekers” to share the moment you’re in, then pose questions to Jonathan and the Sparked Braintrust to be answered, “on air.” To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Your commitment to resolving your pain is one of the greatest gifts that you can give to your children, no matter how old they are, no matter how young they are. It does not matter that if you start or continue this work, it is the greatest gift that you can offer them. And so grace and compassion, accountability and ownership, right? That to me is the definition of self-love, the intersection of those. We must hold ourselves accountable and we must see ourselves as human beings who are allowed to make mistakes and move through this world and relationships imperfectly. unknowingly being controlled by unresolved pain from your past, even minor or momentary experiences, ones that took root and from that moment on, without you having any idea, started limiting everything from your relationships to your health, work, wealth, and life. We all encounter unresolved pain from our past, or what my guest today, New York therapist and author of the book, The Origins of You, Vienna Farrin, calls original wounds.

But most of us don't realize they even exist. So we just keep repeating the patterns that lead to unhappiness, having no idea what's really stopping us from feeling more connected and alive. And even if we do recognize them, understanding and dealing and navigating them, healing them, can be difficult and intimidating.

And that is exactly where we're heading in today's conversation with Vienna, deep into uncovering unresolved pain from the past and how it contributes to maintaining unwanted patterns in our adult lives. And we also explore why she thinks it's even necessary, even if you're a big fan of more behavioral approaches like cognitive behavioral therapy, to go back in time a bit. We look at how to examine our reactivity to certain triggers as indicators of unresolved pain and identify the source of behaviors and roles adopted in dysfunctional family systems to make life more tolerable and then go from being more tolerable to truly abundant and joyful. I love how practical and strategic

and tool-oriented Vienna is in her approach. It opened my eyes to so much, and maybe it'll do the same for you. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot?

Flight risk. There's this interesting thing that I know pops up in any sort of therapeutic practice. And you write about this actually in your new book. And I thought it was kind of a fun jumping off point. You described this thing called the presenting problem. And it's funny because when you sort of lay that out, my brain is saying, oh, this may be about therapy, but this happens in every part of life. At least I know for me, like I can literally like zoom out and see the times where I'm like, okay, so this is going on. Talk to me about like what this is and how it shows up.

Right. Yeah. The phenomenon of the presenting problem, what everybody thinks the thing is about, right? It's like, we're coming in because we need to get better at communicating, or we're having this conflict and we need to find a way through it, right? Or here's the thing that's happening in life that's destroying me. And so it's the thing that we think is happening in our lives that needs our attention. And, and generally what we find is that once we spend a bit of time digging around, we realize that it's actually much more connected to your resolution from the past. You know, it's like we come into therapy or as you're putting it, you know, just in life in general with a complaint, you know, and we can make it very much about the other person or the job itself or, you know, the parent.

And this work is about connecting to the irresolution that we're carrying with us, right? And my work specifically is, and what I talk about in the book, right, is like understanding the unresolved pain from our past, specifically our childhoods and how that has come along with us and is contributing to maintaining the unwanted patterns in our adult lives. And yeah, that presenting problem is, okay, I'm going to focus on the unwanted pattern, whatever it is, whether it's the conflict I have with my partner or my parent or my adult child, whether it's the fact that I am choosing emotionally unavailable people over and over again as partners, whether being chronically unhappy at every single job,

right? It's like, it's always about that thing as opposed to what's living inside of me that hasn't been tended to properly. I'm so curious about this and asking for a friend, of course. Of course, always. It's fascinating to me that we as human beings will often get to a point where the pain is big enough in our life. It's disruptive on some level, on a level that actually compels us to go and seek help. Yet when we go and seek help, when we show up and we book the time, set aside the money to actually cover the service, and then we get into the room and we don't actually center the thing that we need help with. And I'm wondering in your mind, we don't want to, or is it that we don't actually know what

the thing is? I think it can be both. And sometimes the want to is sort of the unconscious know, protecting ourselves from something. Like it's not always easy to be like, okay, we are going to talk about your childhood, you know, like pull up your sleeves, let's do this, right? Giddy up. You know, that's not always the most compelling way to ask a person to dive into this work. And I think, you know, on some level, probably most of us understand that there are things from our past, but there's a lot of narratives that people hold when it comes to their families, right? Whether it's they did the best

they could. And so I want to respect that too. There were many things that they did do well. And that being the thing that they focus in on to the fear that if we open up this can of worms, like what am I going to find to, I want to keep idealizing my childhood and I don't want to look for and find the thing that's going to take that down a few notches. You know, those types of things are really confronting for people and it can feel really scary to go back there. And so it's easier to keep the eyes, you know, facing forward eyes on the prize. Like here's the thing that I'm coming in with. And that's what I want to focus on. This is the first client in the book that I talk about. She's coming in to therapy to talk about whether or not she wants to continue on in the relationship

with her partner. She has the fear that the other shoe is going to drop, even though the way that she describes him to me is that he's this great partner. There's been nothing in the relationship where there's been an ounce of trust issues or anything like that. Yet she still holds this belief that something's going to happen. And she's not sure if she should continue on with him or end the relationship prematurely. And she doesn't want to talk about her past. She's here to figure out if she should be with this person, right? She's really adamant about that for a period of time until we get to a point where something opens, right? And even when I ask her, you know, did the shoe drop in

past romantic relationships? Has the shoe dropped in your family? Or is she like, no, I don't know why you're going there. And then at one point in our therapy, it opens and she shares that when she was a teenager, she was using her dad's, his computer and his email was up. And she comes across an email between her father and a woman who's not her mother. And it's all about how much they had fun and love each other. And it's clear that this relationship, this affair has been going on for a really long time. She's never said that. She never shared that because he walks in on her. He looks at her.

She's got tears in her eyes. He says, please don't tell your mother. She never does. In fact, she's never told anybody until that moment in therapy. It's so fascinating, right? Because here's this massive rupture that's happened in her life. And she's really absorbed it in such a way where she's almost forgotten about it because she had to. She had to continue on in order to make the system, the family system, continue to operate and function in the way that she always knew it to. Because it was idealized for her. My father's amazing. He comes home every night. We have dinner together as a family. This is what our family does, right? And so she exists in this space holding onto that, never really identifying this moment and its impact on her, never actually having had a chance to process her feelings and emotions around what

happened and how she had to withhold something, right? Keep a family secret from the other people in the family and how much that was dictating her premature exits out of all of the relationships that she had had prior to this person she had currently been in a relationship with. And, you know, this is one example amongst, you know, as many examples are, as there are humans in the world, right. Of like why we don't want to look back there or why we don't even know that something exists. Of course she lived it, but she learned to hide it, right. She learned to reject it because she had to. And in that, it wasn't something that she knew to even focus when she had come into therapy back to your point, right? Like, do we know that there's something there or do we just not want to go there? And, you know,

she's a really great example of someone who had lived something and she obviously knew that it existed, but she had found a way to hide it and put all the layers over it so that it wasn't something that she had to be in contact with until our therapy. Yeah. I mean, it is amazing. The human capacity to both compartmentalize and cope. I think on the one hand, isn't stunning and powerful and necessary. And it gets us through some horrific things. But on the other hand, if you compartmentalize or you just develop the coping mechanisms, it's entirely possible to get to that point in your life where you're like, no, I'm good. Like I've dealt with it. It's over, it's in the past. It's over there in that drawer. And yet like what you're describing is, you know, 20 years later, every relationship seems to be hitting this exact same block, but it couldn't

possibly be related to that thing back there in the drawer, right? Because that's, I'm done with it. I'm good. Like it's, it's in my past. And yet what you're saying is, no, actually it is. And sort of like, if you're the common thread in all these different situations and all with all these different relationships, they, they keep hitting the same stuck point. Then there's something else going on. Like we got to look inward rather than just constantly outward to try and figure out what's wrong with this relationship or this person or this circumstance. Listen, again, it's such deeply confronting work to be like, okay, what lives within me? But if you can make a behavioral change and that works for you, good on you.

Go for it. But if you keep coming back, and I think we're both saying it now, right? If you keep coming back into a pattern that those behavioral shifts are not actually changing for you, then we do need to go back and look at what's unresolved from the past. Because there is such a, at least in my experience, right? There's such a link there. Yeah. You write in your book, if you're not conscious of it, you're likely suffering from it. Yeah. I mean, interesting because it really makes you think. Literally, I read the sentence. I'm like, okay, so what's happening in my life that I'm not conscious of? And I'm somebody who

lives a fairly intentional, like I try to really be present, but clearly we all have things that repeat in some kind of pattern we're just not aware of. And the connection between a lack of consciousness and a high potential for suffering is interesting to me. And it's not even that you're saying becoming aware immediately removes the suffering. It's just sort of like, that's the first step. Yeah. And I think even flipping what you said, the quest of what am I not conscious about can feel like a, you know, a windy path to go down, right? Sometimes it's like, where am I suffering? You know, and that being that entry point to say like, okay, if this is where I'm suffering, right. If this is where I have

tension or there's that, just that like, yeah, that sensation of, oh, there's a rub here. That's an indicator. It's like when we have big reactivity to things, right? Or when we blow things out of proportion or when we can, oh, one of my favorites, give the advice, but can't take it ourselves. He's like, I know how to tell my friend exactly what to do, but for some reason I can't do it when it comes to me, right? Like these are really good indicators, right? Kind of the neon sign that I talk about in the book to say, okay, there's an arrow that's pointing us to something. There's a sensation and activation that you feel inside of your body, right? If there's any type

of reactivity, that's a really good indicator to see like, there might be something hiding out here. Yeah. And it's not even like opening the drawer. It's like actually knowing that there's a dresser that even exists that can be in the drawer. Correct. Right. And potentially, like, I wonder if this comes up in therapy too. It's like, because once you plant the seed of like, oh, there's a drawer over here with a thing in it, then I wonder if people start thinking, well, like, how big is that dresser and how many drawers are in it? And if I start to open one drawer, does that mean I'm going to have to start opening all of them to feel the way I want to feel? And that becomes a resistance point alone. Absolutely. I mean, I think that to your

point that sometimes it's just about noticing, even if you're like, I am definitely not interested in opening this drawer right now. That's okay. Right? Like part of change is even just in the observation of something, right? Even just in the awareness of it and then going at a pace to begin to open some things up in a way that feels safe for you. You know, part of the work is really understanding the constraint, right? The thing that keeps us from wanting to open the drawer. What am I afraid of? What am I scared of? If I open this drawer, is this going to change the relationship that I have with my sibling currently today? Is it going to change the relationship that I have with my parent? I'm in a good place with them. I don't want to go there. I don't want to ruin anything,

right? It's like to just begin to name, okay, what is the thing that blocks us? Not from a shame-based place, right? Like, let's just identify what's the thing that blocks us from going there. Let's spend some time with it, right? Because maybe we can then get to a place where like, okay, it's not so, let's peek in. Okay, but I'm going to close it again. You know, it's just like, let me move with it in such a way until I'm ready to actually address the thing. What you're talking about here is like the starting assumption is that as you describe

your past as your present, you know, like whatever happened and whether it was last year or 50 years ago, you know, like if we haven't in some way dealt with it, integrated it, healed it, if healing is a part of the process, then it will be a part of our current experience or circumstance and our behavior. Which also makes me curious because the whole field of cognitive behavioral therapy, which has become, I think, largely dominant in therapeutic space over the last couple of decades, kind of walked away from that and basically says, let's just deal with what's happening. Let's deal with the behavior now. Let's not get all quote Freudian and talk about your mom and your dad. And you're saying, no, we have to. I'm going against the grind here a little bit, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think that there are

behavioral changes that we can certainly make. But again, if we keep coming back into contact with something, that's the thing that lets us know that there's more. And I am a big believer that as many ways forward as there are humans on this planet, but one thing that I say in the book is like, I cannot for the life of me understand how that does not include understanding our family of origin, family systems that we grew up in and the effects and the impacts that we had during that time. That is such a huge critical part of who we are. It's what built us, right? It's the belief

systems that were given to us. It's the experiences that we had, the observations that we watched, how parent A treated parent B, how my sibling was treated versus how I was treated. Like all of this really contributes to the fabric of who we are. And so, yeah, you know, you're right. CBT is something that is pushed quite a bit and respect. And I fully stand behind the fact that we need to understand our past in order to really find peace within ourselves. And when I talk about the past, I'm not interested in us hanging out there forever. It's like, we don't need to go back to stay there. We just need to go back to dig up some information and really connect to what is unresolved there so that we can tend to it present day. So I'm not asking

people to like, let's go hang out in your childhood for, you know, years or decades, you know, let's just go back there and get a good understanding and good roadmap of what happened. What did you see? What did you experience? What impacted you? What do you wish? What do you wish your parents knew that they didn't know? What did you crave for as a child and not get? What are the things that created the wounds? I talk about the wounds in the book, Five Core Origin Wounds. It's like, what are the experiences that you had that you have internalized? And so, yes, I still stand by, even though there's a lot of research around CBT, I still stand by the need to understand our past if we're going to create change, long lasting change. Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. For me, I'm not somebody who's done sort of like a deep dive into my past in any sort of therapeutic way. I've thought about it a whole lot and processed a lot. And we live in a world that is so groundless and the pace of it is relentless. So it's almost like every couple of years, our model of the world is being shattered and we have to reform it. And then we have to reform who are we and what is our place in the world and this evolving model of the world. And I wonder if in your experience,

what you see is that, so we're sort of like in perpetual sense-making mode. It's easier to be in that mode of understanding, like of sense-making of us, our place, our role, what's happening around us, if we have a clear understanding of what that origin story was, what that origin wound was, if in fact that exists for us. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's like understanding the origins of ourselves. It's like, again, like I said before, sort of the roadmap to our inner world, you know, and when we're trying to find our place, trying to make sense of certain things right now, if we don't have a direct line with that, right, then it's really hard to place a lot of things.

It's really hard to be authentic. You know, it's really hard to feel a sense of confidence with ourselves, right? It's like those wounds are going to be running the show and they're going to be, you know, in my opinion, it's like, it causes a lot of havoc, whether it's with the relationship with ourselves, right? Self to self, or whether it's relationship with others, right? From partners to friends, to parents, to our adult children, to colleagues and bosses and such, right? And so it's like, it touches every corner of our world, right? It touches every corner of our lives. And sometimes it touches it in ways that are really obvious, right? And other times it touches it in ways that are really, really subtle that you would never have noticed before. And I think, again, that exploration of our inner roadmap is so,

so valuable, getting to actually step into a place of authenticity, of confidence, of healing, of agency, really, in our lives right now. Yeah. I wonder also, Gen X, of healing, of agency really in our lives right now. Yeah. I wonder also, I'm Gen X, I think the last year of the pandemic or whatever it is. So I came up in a generation where the institution of marriage was going through a really big transition. I recently spoke with Eli Finkel and he sort of lays out these three eras of marriage, like pragmatic, you did it basically for survival, the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy, then love-based marriages, which was largely about belonging, but also about satisfying societal norms where you really didn't know the person all that well, but like you all had roles that

were agreed upon that lasted relatively short. And now for the last 50 years, there's a huge drive for self-expression within the marriage and to use that as a vehicle for self-expression. So I kind of came up like later in the transition between that second and third era. And I wonder if generationally, you know, there are different expectations because also my generation was the generation where as kids, there was the highest divorce rate among parents. It's actually dropped substantially from what I understand over the last couple of decades. So you had a lot of kids that were probably moved through some form of trauma with parents separating. And as you speak about and you write about, oftentimes as a kid, even if the parents are trying to keep it from you, you see things, you feel things, and there's a sensitivity to pain and you want to kind of make everything okay. You want to walk into your home and feel like everyone's going to be okay just for even like a short window. So you play that role of either peacekeeper or

you make yourself invisible or broader thought on long-term partnering. Yeah. I think that can absolutely like now, as you said, self-expression, you know, having an autonomous life is the, or like I should say the balance, right. Of autonomy. And also I want to be in partnership, but I want to have a life outside of just you, right? Like that is a priority right now. And yeah, I think of course, you know, what is the quote unquote norm kind of circulating around us the period of time when we're growing up? You know, for me, I talk about this in the book. My parents got separated and then divorced.

I was in first grade when it started. Where I went to school, there were only probably three other kids, maybe max, whose parents were divorced. Right. And so I definitely felt different. That was not something that I was seeing, at least in that community that was, oh, everybody's parents are getting divorced, or this is really normal, you know, that had its impact, right? If you grow up and you're like half the kids have divorced parents, you know, does that shift something

for you, right? Maybe it does. You're seeing that they're going after, I don't know, this is what we want for our lives. And they're going after their own individual dreams. And that begins to shape the perspective or the narrative of what's a priority in life or what's a priority in a relationship, right? So absolutely. But I think to the point of the role that we take on, you know, my parents went through a horrible, horrible divorce, right? There was a tremendous amount of high conflict. There was psychological abuse. There was gaslighting, manipulation, paranoia, emotional flooding. Like it was chaotic. The police were around a lot. You know, there's, these are my memories, you know, it was really hard to be in that system.

I'm an only child too. And I share that detail because there were no other tiny humans in that space to be like, oh my gosh, what is going on with, you know, it's like, there was nowhere for me to place anything. Neither of my parents repartnered remarried. There were no other adults in the system either. They fought for a long time. So I didn't have anybody, you know, a grounded adult saying, I'm so sorry that you're having to see this. And I described them as they were the system that was crashing and burning around me. And how that affected me was I didn't believe that there was room for me to not be okay too. What I saw were two adults who were not okay, who were really not okay. And I absorbed that in a particular way. I said, whether that was true or not, it doesn't matter, right? Maybe they did have space for me. That's not what I believed at the time in my little five-year-old body, right? It was like, there

isn't room. And so what I took on and you said it before, right? It was like kind of the peacekeeper. I got really good at everything and didn't need anything from anyone. I was always quote unquote, fine and unaffected by things. I really flew under the radar and so important because when we have any type of dysfunction in the family, children will take on a role. You said it before, whether it's the peacekeeper, the pleaser, the comic relief, the straight A student, the perfectionist, the what, you know, it's like there's endless roles that we can take on in an attempt to make the system, the family system function better. And sometimes it's successful, sort of the illusion of it. Like,

okay, if I'm really quiet, then I've learned that daddy doesn't yell as much. Okay, that's successful. I know what to do. If I get really good grades, mom and dad don't fight. Okay, right? If I am the comic relief, my sibling stops being abused. There's so many ways in which we learn how to try to make the system function in a way that is either safer, more tolerable, et cetera. The thing is, is that oftentimes that role comes along with us into our adult lives.

Talk about, you know, for me, I was this needless little girl, you know, who was like, I'm fine. I'm unaffected. I became a needless woman, you know, unsurprisingly, who was always fine,'m unaffected. I became a needless woman, you know, unsurprisingly who was always fine, always unaffected. I took on this cool girl persona. I'm like down for whatever zero boundaries had zero relationship to my feelings and my emotions and my vulnerability. It had to be designed that way, right? Cause otherwise I would be affected and that wouldn't work. Right. And so it's like, I operated that way for a really long time and I didn't realize it until, you know, my late twenties where it was so obvious to me that I had taken on this role in a romantic relationship and I was pretending with what was happening. And eventually kind of woke up and had this aha moment that it wasn't okay, right? This behavior actually wasn't fine. And to literally be able to say those words for the first time, I have to tell you, like it was one of the most profound

moments of my life, as simple as it might be, right? To say, I'm not fine. Those words truly had not come out of my mouth in that way before. And it was such a shift. This was like this massive pivot in my life to be able to say that my hands were sweaty. My heart was beating out of my chest to be like, I'm not okay. And I'm exiting this relationship because this behavior, it was not honorable and respectful to me, but it was something that just woke up this part of myself that had not realized that for, at that time, you know, decades, I had been operating as this needless person. And I was doing it kind of unconsciously at that point, but, you know, I was operating this way because it's the way that I believed that the system around me would be okay. And so I think most of us probably have some story like that of like, ooh, yeah, what role do I continue to embody or what role have I rejected? One of the things I said before was that sometimes it comes along with us in really obvious ways, like a path of repetition. And other times it comes along with

us in really subtle ways, which is, you know, the path of opposition, right? It's like, okay, I took a path of repetition. Here's the role that I had in childhood. Here's the role that I hold as an adult. But for others, you might've been a emotional caregiver, caretaker for a parent when you were a kid. And now you reject being connected to emotion to a partner. Some people are like, I don't want any of that anymore. And they don't realize that it's in response to having been and played that part for so long. And so sometimes it's the subtleties of like, oh, it's quite different than the way that it showed up, but it's still connected to the pain

and the irresolution around being the emotional caretaker to a parent for 10 years. So if it's so important to identify what is my origin story and what is the wound, if not multiple, clearly working with somebody else therapeutically is probably a fantastic way to do it. But for those who may not have access to that, or for those who just want to start to explore this on their own, what are some of the key questions that you could start asking yourself to see what comes up? Yeah. So actually, and I should send this to you after, so you can put it in the show notes. I have a free quiz where it will tell you what your primary origin wound is. So that's, that could be a great place to start. Where are you the most reactive in your life right now?

Just notice like, when's the last time you were super reactive, right? And just see what shows up in that space and try to move away from like the content of what the fight with was, or like, well, they did this, you know, try to stay away from the other person or the thing and try to move the experience back into you. Notice where the reactivity is. And if you can keep going with it a little bit to explore the fear, the insecurity, or the doubt about yourself that shows up in that space. So the five core origin wounds that I talk about in the book are worthiness, belonging, prioritization, safety, and trust. So simply put, I don't feel worthy. I don't feel deserving. I don't feel good enough.

I don't feel like I belong. I don't feel like I fit in here. I don't feel like a priority. I'm not important to you. I don't trust. It's hard for me to trust people. I believe that I'm being betrayed or deceived or lied to. And then safety, right? I don't feel safe emotionally, physically, sexually, spiritually, just the whole like honoring of who I am in this world does not feel safe to me. And so those are the places that I look. And when I sat down to write this book, I like jotted down tons and tons of possible wounds, but I felt like most of them could really fall under these umbrellas. Nobody fits into a box. If there's a word that resonates better for you, great, go for it. But these were the five wounds that I felt like encompassed a lot of the human experience when

it comes to pain. And I think, so that one question about reactivity present day, I also, I talk about this question that a therapist once asked me, which was, what was it that you craved for the most as a child and didn't get? And to just tune into that, to allow yourself even to answer it. Some people are like, I got everything that I needed. It's like, okay, okay. I hear you. And like, let's just push a little bit here. It's like, okay, okay. I hear you. And like, let's just push a little bit here. It's like denial, red flag. Yeah, right, right. I have a number of folks who come in who are like, no, I really did have a great childhood. And of course we can. Of course we do. There are phenomenal parents out there.

Of course there are. And they're imperfect, flawed human beings who of course don't get everything right and say the right thing all of the time. That's why I say it's like, we're not here to throw people under the bus. We're not here to like pick at and try to destroy some image. We're here to honor the truth of your experience. That's it. Right. And so, okay. They're flawed individuals who cannot operate in a vacuum with you. Right. It's like, it is impossible to have a perfect experience. Even the perfect experiences, quote unquote, eventually know, it's like, if only I can just be like my parents and you're like, aha, there it is. Right. There's something to work with. And so, you know, our job again, is not, we're not here to throw anybody under the bus, destroy anybody. We're not picking at stuff. We're here to name and honor what your experience is. Because if you can't do that, right, if you get caught in rationalizing, minimizing, invalidating, distorting your

experience, then you don't get to touch what needs to be touched, you know? And so many of us find ways to do that. I did it, you know? I found a way. My parents became very good friends. We do holidays together for a long time. I was like, it didn't affect me. They're great now. Right. And that served something for me because it protected me from having to actually connect with my emotions.

It protected me from having to be not okay. Right. From the girl who was always okay. Right. And so it's like to really begin to explore how the stance is protecting you from something, right? What is it serving? What is it protecting you from? But yeah, those are two good questions. If you're like, where do I begin and how do I start this? What is it that creates the most reactivity out of you? And then what's the story there

connected to fears and securities and doubts? And then what is it that you wanted as a child the most and didn't get? Yeah. I mean, that's a powerful one, I think. You also talk about something, I think you sort of labeled the constraint question. What keeps you from doing or not doing something? What is the constraint? And I think when I think of that question, I have an immediate, my answer almost goes to, you know, like immediately it takes me back to the beginning of our conversation with the presenting problem.

I come up with a presenting answer, you know, and then, but then I kind of know, like, I feel it in my bones. I'm like, yeah, that's actually not the truth. So it's sort of like, okay, let's go deeper. Let's go deeper. But that to me was a really powerful question. Also, if you're willing to allow yourself to just go beyond the immediate, super obvious surface level answer. You just shared also these five different wounds. I want to talk about them a little bit more and in particular, how they tend to show up in people's eyes, because I think maybe that'll help us understand how they may be showing up in any given moment in our lives. So the first one was around worthiness. Yeah. Worthiness. And I say it in the book too, that like, I think it's possible that we all have

some type of worthiness wound. I was through my whole work. I was like, Oh, I think every single one of us could possibly have a little bit of this here and there. Yeah. So the worthiness wound, yeah. The conditions of the relationship, right? It's like in order to get love, connection, presence, attention, validation, who did you need to be, right? So for the performers out there, for the perfectionists out there, for the people pleasers out there. Yeah. Those are oftentimes the folks where you learned that if I'm perfect, that's how I maintain connection. If I can please you, then you're happy with me and I can be loved. If I can keep the peace, then this happens, right? So it's those, yeah, the conditions that we learn. If I get the straight A's, if I'm a phenomenal athlete, right? Like the performance

based stuff. And so, yeah, those are really good indicators that like, Ooh, you may have learned that your worthiness was attached and connected to you operating in this way. Right. I talk about a story in there specifically to me, I have an origin worthiness wound and it happened through a dynamic with my dad. My dad was, when I was easygoing, he was super helpful, very present. Yeah. Would do a lot of things for me. Like acts of service was a lot of the love there. And when I was not easygoing, i.e. being a teenager, that would be withheld. And the way that it was held was through silent treatment. And he wouldn't speak to me for days or sometimes weeks. And this goes really well with that role that I was talking about before, right? It's like, you know, don't have needs, don't be expressed because that's what threatens

the love and the connection, right? So I learned that being easygoing, you know, got me what I needed. And if I was quote unquote difficult, right? Like this was the, you know, there was that threat that was always there. And then of course the experience that followed it up. And so I learned that the condition was be easy and you get it. Don't be easy and you don't, you know? And so I want people to think outside of the box a little bit too, right? Not just like, oh, was I a perfectionist? Was I a performer? Like think about the conditions of love, connection, presence, attention, validation. And what is it that made you worthy? What is it that made you feel deserving, right? What is it that made you feel good enough? How did you know? Could you just be you?

Or did you have to be more of or less of or this or that in order to get it. That's some of the ways that it can take shape and form in our childhoods. I imagine that shows up in a lot of people and in part also because I think as a kid, we're not necessarily just talking about parents or parent figures or guardians. We may look to all sorts of different people to give us a sense of worth. Absolutely. And if in any one of those contexts or relationships, maybe it's a teacher who we adore. Maybe it's somebody who we're working for when we're a kid and it's our first job and we

really want to perform well. But in any of those, if it's a relationship where we really yearn to be seen and validated, feel like we have value and it is constantly conditioned on being or performing or doing a certain thing. It's going to show up. Absolutely. Yeah. Very quickly, tiny story, because I know we want to get to all of these, but I had a client who said that when he was in fifth grade, this girl that he really liked had a huge crush on. She found out that he liked him, that he liked her. And she said, well, yeah, he's cute, but he's not tall enough. And it's just that one sentence. It has stuck with him to this day. And so it can be these little moments, right? These non-moments that we think won't have any type of impact or effect that can sometimes stick with us for decades on end.

And really, again, kind of run the show of, okay, where is the insecurity and how do I try to date in the world now? Which is, you know, how it showed up for him was just speaking to that point because you offered to us that obviously the wounding can come from teachers and coaches and other students as well. Ah, life, right? how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later require, charge time and actual results will vary. so other ones um belonging yeah we confuse fitting in with belonging especially as you know as children all we want to do is be liked fit in and what do i need to do so there's this trade of course of oftentimes our authenticity for how we actually get that sense of belonging and fitting in with others. From an early age, this idea, Dr. Gabor Mate talks about this, right? That our lifelines are authenticity and attachment. And when we can only have one, right? Like when attachment is threatened, you will trade in authenticity every single time as a kid, right?

And so it's so easy to trade ourselves in order to quote unquote fit in, right? So if you're the black sheep, quote unquote, of the family, right? If you believe something different than what the family believes, right? A lot of times, you know, the listeners here, you might be really familiar with a family that's like, this is how we do it. This is what we believe, right? And there's some beautiful stuff there. Here are certain traditions that we have that we love to experience together.

But then there's also other ones that say either adapt or you're an outsider, right? Either believe what we believe or you're rejected. Either love who we want you to love or you're out of here and I'm not talking to you or I'm going to pretend like you don't exist, right? Either this or that connection is lost, right? And so to think about, okay, what did I need to trade? And you're going to hear the conditional part in a lot of this, right? Of like, okay, this is how we operate. And if I don't do this, then I risk the love connection, presence, attention, validation.

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting also to me, because if you are traveling through life with a belonging or maybe not, but, and then you start to immerse yourself in the world of social media, which basically every sentient being does these days, you know, it's built on an algorithm which reinforces you showing up in a particular way and then getting little like hits of validation. You know, so if you have a belonging wound to start with, I would imagine this just so exacerbates it because it's just like, this is the way you need to be if you want to be accepted by people who you also very likely never know in your life. Yeah.

For real. And then if you don't have one, I wonder if this actually can become the genesis of this type of wound. Yeah. That's an interesting one. And I think to worthiness, right? Like, am I good enough if I get X amount of likes or comments? Right. It's like you get both of them together. Absolutely. Right. So I guess our advice here is get rid of social media. If you have these wounds, be very mindful. But yeah, that's a great point of like, can this be the genesis? And listen, for adults entering into that space versus kids entering into that space, like you and I did not have social media when we were growing up.

And yes, of course, you know, we have documentaries and, you know, lots of research around the impact of, you know, social media on, on kiddos today. And obviously very, very scary, but you're right. I think as adults, if that wound is there, it exacerbates it for kids. Oh my goodness is, could it be the Genesis? Absolutely. You can have an incredible family life and then go onto the internet, right? And you're just like, oh my gosh, the worldwide web has, you know, fully created this wound here. And so, yeah, I appreciate the insight of like looking at, of course, society and what's going on and media, you know, when we were growing up, right. It's like magazines and like billboards and now it's literally in your pocket constantly.

Yeah. And the speed of feedback, it's like, it's like I've seen young kids post something and if they don't get a certain like minimum number of likes within the first two minutes, they pull it down and they'll try and like repost it in a different way or something different that they feel will let them fit in or will have a sense of belonging. And they measure it by likes per minute, rather than just showing up and saying, I'm a dork. This is me. Love me or not. And it takes so many of us so long to really learn that that actually is, it is the thing rather than hiding it. It really can be this lifelong process. And when we talk about healing these wounds, it's not like a one and done,

you know, this is a constantly coming back into contact with it. And, you know, as we do this work, I think the cadence of, you know, how many contact points we have with it probably starts to slow a little bit, but the reality of it is, is that life really is the gift that keeps on giving, you know, and it will keep bringing us back into contact with things are familiar to us. And also things like it is not uncommon to be 80 years old and come into contact with something new for the first time. Right. It's not uncommon experience, right? You'd think like, well, after 80 years, I should know everything. It's like, no, no, no, no. Right. Every time we kind of go back into that space, we will likely find something different, something new, or like a shift in perspective on something. But next one

is prioritization. Oh goodness. Prioritization, right? Like I want to know that I am a priority in your life, right? That I matter to you in a big way. There are so many things that can distract parents, caretakers, the adults in our lives away from that, right? So whether one of the common things is, you know, a job, right? A career that is more of a priority. So sometimes it's like the chosen ones like that. Other times it can be, you know, a mental health challenge that takes up space in the family system, right? Mom's depression, for example, that is just kind of all encompassing, fills the space and is really the priority instead of, you know, the child, for example, it could be addiction. I'm curious also about what about something that seems actually

innocuous and some people would actually celebrate and say like, this has to be the way it is. The parent's own relationship as a priority over the children's. I mean, good, but still wound potential. I think it depends on how they go about that. You know, I think of course, like you will hear a lot of couples who say like our relationship first, like this, like if our relationship is strong, that's actually going to be beneficial for the whole system. And I think that there's absolutely value to that, but how do we talk about it? You know, does it swing too far in one direction? Right. Or can there still be a balance where a child knows that like, oh my gosh, my parents absolutely love each

other and prioritize each other. Amazing. Right. And I am too, right. Not at the expense of, and I think that there are some couples who can absolutely balance that. Hey, we are going to take a trip just as a couple every year, because that's really important for us. And we're also going to do all of these other things that reiterate and help solidify that you matter to me, to us as well, so that that is strengthened enough so that when parents prioritize themselves as individuals or as a couple, that that doesn't question or detract from that for the child. Right. So yeah, absolutely. There's space to prioritize the relationship. It's when the thing becomes all consuming, like it could be conflict that is

the priority as opposed to, you know, the child needing help with homework or something like that. Right. But yeah, I would say like not at the expense and making sure and being attuned enough to your child to know whether or not they actually feel like a priority or second fiddle. Yeah. So it's more of a yes and answer. Yes and, yeah. And that's why all of this is so nuanced. As I said, it's like, this isn't black and white. We're not fitting into boxes. All of this is nuanced. You have to tune into what your experience is with this to really identify, like, did that hurt you? Did that cause pain for some people? I'm like, that didn't bother me at all. Okay. If it didn't, right. If that's true. Okay. But to tune into what is actually true for you is so

important here, right? So we talked about work. We talked about mental health challenges that can take up a lot of space. We talked about addiction that can take up space, conflict between parents, or even if there's like a massive rupture, like sometimes the divorce itself, right. It's like, is the priority case in point here, right. With, with my, what I had shared before is like, that was the priority. There was so much chaos that no one even knew like to check in. I just faked it so well. You know, even today, my parents are so sweet. Well, you were just such a well-adjusted child. I was like, guys, I faked it still. Come on, wake up.

Right. And when parents are in their own absolute abyss of pain and anger and contempt and all those different things that you may move through, the focus becomes really narrow. And it's not about not loving your kid. It's just about you're in pain too. And you're literally just trying to get through each day. That's right. And which it goes back to what you were talking about earlier. Like this is not about like, where do I assign blame? Right. This is about just understanding it and actually acknowledging each person's experience. And sometimes wounds don't have to be birthed out of negligence or malice. I talk about one example in the book in the prioritization chapter

around a client who had a single mom. She worked two jobs, double shifts almost every day. The time that they got together was that they got church on Sunday mornings and they got to go to brunch afterwards. He loved and respected his mother so much. And he saw the sacrifice that she gave like that. He could rationalize that her working two jobs was her way of prioritizing his future and, you know, his success, but it didn't change that he wanted more time with her, you know? And And I think those examples are so important

because sometimes it's like, oh, it's the negligent parent. It's the abusive adult. It's this, it's that. And sometimes it's the well-intentioned people, right? That's where there can still be pain created and left over. So I just want to make sure that we can remember that it's not always

from this, you know, malintended place and negligent place. No, it's such a good point. I'm glad you, I'm glad you sort of brought that up. Last two, trust. Talk to me about trust. Let's talk about trust. So oftentimes when there is a betrayal, when there is deceit, when there are lies that happen in the family system, whether that is secrets being kept, whether it's an affair, of course, could be one, but anything that ruptures the trust. And sometimes it's like, you know, even in the small things, right? When a parent says we can go do this and then we don't do that, you know, like it can be in those tiny little moments where that tiny human is like, well, you said, I can't

actually believe the words that are coming out of your mouth to the big things, right? Where it's like, oh, there's this affair that takes place in the family system that, you know, just cracks everything open. And I thought you were this person and I thought this relationship was one way. And now I'm seeing that it's something entirely different or that family secret that's kept from you for so long that you find out about at some point that shatters your world in some way. So, you know, there are so many ways that trust can be broken. Trust is a tricky one, right?

Very hard one to put the pieces back together once it's shattered. It's not impossible. So that's the good news, but it is one that really cuts deep into the core. But again, identifying that origin pain of where that first betrayal, where that first deceit, where that first lie, oh my goodness, there are like endless examples of it. Yeah. And it's interesting too, because this is one in particular, like to me that like this can pop up, it can be part of like your family of origin. This can pop up in your thirties or forties in a business transaction. This can pop up anywhere. And sometimes it creates a rupture. So like the experience and the person, let's say, where it created this really big trust chasm

was so painful that, you know, like you are no longer in a relationship with this person. So it's not about healing. It's not about trusting that person anymore. They're out of your life. But now you have this thing inside of you, a voice that says, I don't know who to believe anymore. If I could fall for that, and I really thought I was good at knowing people and sussing out what was real and not real. And I got spun. I can't trust my own instincts anymore. That's it. And it's really well said because a lot of times it can be about self-trust. How did I not see that? How did I let that happen? I thought that I was dialed in. I'm a smart person. These are things that I've heard from people. I can't

believe that somebody got this over me. And a lot of times the trust wound really is with the self and rebuilding that relationship with intuition, you know, like our gut, you know, I think a lot of times as kids were so, well, you're talking about adult experiences, but I want to take it back to childhood a little bit because as oftentimes in the family system where self-betrayal becomes required in some way, like we are so attuned as kiddos. They're like pointing to noticing everybody's feelings. I have a 22 month old. He's like, he knows everything, you know, it's like, oh my goodness. Right. Like you are there and your intuition is so spot on. And when they can speak, right, they're like, what's wrong, mama, right? Or like, oh, is mama sick? And a lot of times parents, I think sometimes in the name of trying to protect

the child or trying to protect the picture, tell the child that what they're seeing and sensing and feeling is not true. Again, even just something like that, where you're like, you know, maybe you have an alcoholic parent who is not well, and you're like, oh, mommy's not well, or, you know, something like that. And then the other adult says, no, they're okay. They're just higher. It can even be in something like that where we start to lose the relationship with intuition and self-trust because somebody is telling us that what we see and what we know to be true on some level is not actually true. And then we have all the other big ruptures that can do it as well. And then the last one, oh, safety. This was a hard chapter to write. I would not have done this chapter justice if I did not talk about abuse, because obviously abuse is

a huge part of why we don't feel safe in the world and what creates the origin safety wound. It's a delicate chapter though. I remind people of course, to like take really good care as they read, but you know, the safety origin wound, we are talking about our physical wellbeing, our emotional wellbeing, our sexual wellbeing. We are talking really about our whole system being honored and respected and cared for. And unfortunately, that is not always the case. Unfortunately, children are abused. Unfortunately, children are taken advantage of. Unfortunately, those are the experiences of many people. And it sets the, yeah, it sets the road to feel like I am not safe

in this world. People are not thinking about the impact that this thing has on me. And, you know, this exploration, this chapter is a little bit different than the other chapters in terms of the origin healing practice at the end of each chapter. This one, you know, that is available to everyone, of course, for each chapter, but with the safety chapter, I, I give a safe meditation instead guided meditation. You said it before Jonathan, like that's sometimes working through this with a therapist. You know, if you're able to, I would really highly recommend that when it comes to this in particular, if there's trauma, if there's complex trauma here, really, really

recommend that. But, you know, it's the dishonoring, the disrespect of, you know, the physical, sexual, emotional space of the individual. I won't get into, I'm mindful of people listening to this in lots of different places. And so we don't need to talk about, you know, the specifics of that too much. I think we all get it, but like anything, right. That makes you not feel safe in your home. And sometimes that's threats, you know, sometimes it doesn't have to be an actual action, right. Sometimes it's just the threat of something that, Ooh, like we know that sensation in our body. And so, yeah, that was a, that's a heavy one, but a very important one for us to address. Yeah. And again, repeating you, if this is a part of your experience, be gentle

when exploring that. And if you choose to read that chapter in the book when diving into it. From sort of first identifying, naming, really understanding what these are and how they show up and some also on like how we might start to deal with these or think about these. And as you offer, like you have these healing practices at the end of each one of these, which are beautiful. And then you also kind of move into really changing behavior long-term. You invite people into like, let's really explore conflict. Let's really explore the way that we communicate. And also the topic, which I feel like I'm just seeing all over the place. And we've talked about a handful of times here on Good Life Project is the notion of boundaries. These are so tied. They are. They're so tied to everything. And we have, I think really, we have so much

trouble expressing them. And even when we find that we're like ready to express them, sometimes we express them in ways that are helpful. But other times we express them. We're like, yes, we did it. We know where we stand, but then you're like, we become either really too porous. You described the difference between like porous and rigid boundaries as these two unhealthy ways to express them. So it's not just about saying, this is clear to me, this is how I want to be treated. It's also about how we communicate them, which ties back into communication. It ties back into conflict. This seems so central to everything, to part of the quote, healing journey around these things. It is important, right? It's like identifying it is great, but we really want to see how the unresolved wounds are showing up actually in

our relationships today. And so let's take boundaries. I said before, I clearly had terrible boundaries and for a period of time in my life. And when you look at a worthiness wound, for example, we have like the pleasers in there, the pleasers generally have porous boundaries, right? It's like, we want to please people, right? We know what the outcome is. If I please you, then I get love connection,. We've got it now. Everybody's listening. It's like, I know, I know, I know. And so it's not that there's a direct line from every wound specifically to how you might

operate with a boundary or what conflict style you have or your communication style. But there's a fascinating thing that starts to like, uh-oh, I see how the irresolution there, right? If I'm still operating from a place of my worthiness is tied to my ability to please people. And then we think about, well, how does that relate to the way in which I either set or lift boundaries, right? It's like, well, I want to, if I need to please people, then I'm going to likely be porous in my boundaries. If we have a safety wound, we might have a really rigid boundary. The wall is so far up. I will not get injured. I will not be hurt. If we have a trust wound, wall might be all the way to the top. I'm going to hide behind here.

Here's where it's safe for me. Right. But what happens if the wall is all the way to the top, right? What happens if we have such rigid boundaries? Well, we can't have intimacy with people. We can't have connection with people. And I talk about, you know, in that third section, I love the third section of the book, risk-taking, right, is an eyes-wide-open risk-taking. We must. There's no way around this. We must take risks because otherwise we have the protection front and center always. But it's an eyes-wide-open approach, not a reckless risk-taking, right? And so, again, this whole book is sort of the eyes-wide-open, right?

We're really opening ourselves up to what it is that we need to see and understand and connect to so that we can use discernment when it comes to lowering that wall a little bit or actually putting a boundary up a little bit where we're like, oh, somebody might be upset or somebody might be disappointed or I might get hurt. Right. And I know that that could be a part of this experience, but I'm going to test it out here with this particular person. Cause I have enough of the data points and the information that I need to say, like, I think this is an okay thing for me

to do. We must, but we also must do it from a place of eyes wide open, deep understanding. And again, discernment plays a huge part in all of this. But that's how we begin to see the shifts in the current relationships, in the way that conflict breaks us down, in the way that communication breaks down, in the way that boundaries either protect us too much or have us priorit and connection so much over our own protection and safety. Yeah. I mean, it really does seem like boundaries can either exacerbate or relieve or help heal the pain caused by an origin wound. Like you were describing, if you have a trust issue and you basically just decided, I'm never going to trust anyone for the rest of my life. Now you've just layered on isolation and never feeling loved or belonging or connected to anyone, which just layers pain on top of pain. But then again, like lowering the wall is, as you described, it is. There's no way to de-risk that experience. So as you said, do it.

I love this early, the notion of eyes wide open. Don't just go wholesale always. Take your time, ease your way in, tiny steps. How does this feel? Just a touch. How does that feel? And what if I lower it 2% more? How does that feel?

More of an iterative process. And I think that's how we really learn. And as you described me, this is not a type of thing where you're like, oh, okay, now I know what the origin story was. I know what the wound is. I know about these different mechanisms that you talked about in the third chapter, like better communications, how to deal with conflict better and boundaries. I'm going to flip the light switch on. That's it. Yeah. It's an evolution. And maybe as we start to wrap our conversation too, like circling around to the notion of self-forgiveness along the way, because this is going to be a process for all of us. Oh, it's so easy to kick ourselves.

You know, it really is to be like, how did I not see that? I can't believe that I engaged in this way. I've been suffering, you been suffering for so long. And this process is a process of grace and compassion for the self. And it's a process of ownership, acknowledgement, accountability. When we do something that hurts or harms another, I wrote this book for us to read it as the adult child, right? For the self, but you're going to read this book probably a number of times, or you might even just in particular moments, see your partner. You might see a parent, you might see your child

in these stories, right? You might see a friend and you might notice like, oh, maybe I have contributed to this person's pain in some way. That can be a tough one, right? Especially for the parents. Parents are always like, oh, do I want to read this book? Like, oh no. In what ways have I created and participated in any of these origin wounds for my, for my children. And we probably have, right? Like in some ways, but I think what I often say to parents is like your commitment to resolving your pain is one of the greatest gifts that you can give to your children, no matter how old they are, no matter how young they are, it does not matter that if you start or continue this work, it is the greatest

gift that you can offer them. And so grace and compassion, right? Accountability and ownership, right? That to me is the definition of self-love, right? The intersection of those, we must hold ourselves accountable and we must see ourselves as human beings who are allowed to make mistakes and move through this world and relationships and perfectly. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Always be a student. Always be a student and go out in nature. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still

listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person, just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together.

Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

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