Good Life Project - How to Lead with Love (even when it’s hard) | Bishop Michael Curry

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

How do you step into conversations, whether personal or professional, family, friends, colleagues, or even perceived or real adversaries, and still find a place for love in the conversation? Is that even possible in some situations? Is it asking way too much, or is it the only way to finally feel the way you want to feel and resolve an issue that, approached any other way, will remain forever intractable?That’s what we’re talking about with today’s guest, the Most Reverend Michael Curry, who is the first African American individual to serve as Presiding Bishop and Primate of The Episcopal Church.In May of 2018, Bishop Curry delivered a moving sermon on the redemptive power of love at Prince Harry and Meghan Markle’s royal wedding, then just months after served as the officiant for the state funerals of Senator John McCain and President George H.W. Bush in the Washington National Cathedral. Bishop Curry has also written 5 books, his newest is Love is the Way: Holding Onto Hope in Troubling Times, which expands upon his focus on love as the centerpiece for a new way to live and find meaning and peace, even at times when they can seem so hard to access. We explore all of this in today’s BEST OF conversation.You can find Bishop Michael Curry at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Rev. Jacqui Lewis about love in challenging times.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.Mejuri: Mejuri believes you don’t have to overspend to treat those you love most. They design high-quality, fine jewelry you can live in and style your way. Simplify your holiday shopping and go to mejuri.com. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I have to admit, while I was nervous ahead of time at the royal wedding, once I was preaching, I wasn't because I was doing what I do. You know, you think about it. People who act, we give them awards. We give them Oscars and Emmys and Tonys and they make a lot of money because acting is hard work. Being who you actually are is not hard work. It's actually letting go of a load of having to pretend and having to prove yourself. It's presenting your best self. And I just think there's incredible liberation in that. And I'm still trying to grow into it more and more because at some point you have to say, you know what? Like me, dislike me, love me, not love me, gotta be me. And me is okay. So how do you step into conversations, whether personal or professional, family, friends,

colleagues, even perceived or real adversaries, and still find a place for love in that conversation, even when you wildly disagree? Is that even possible in some situations? Is it asking way too much? Or is it the only way to finally feel the way you want to feel and resolve an issue, approach any other way that would remain forever intractable? Well, that's what we're talking about with today's guest, the Most Reverend Michael Curry, who is the first African-American individual to serve as the presiding bishop and primate of the Episcopal Church, chief pastor, president, and chief executive officer and chair of the executive council of the Episcopal Church.

Born in Chicago in the 50s with a dad who was an Episcopal priest, his mom died at a young age, and he and his sister were raised in a family that was rooted not just in faith, but in social activism through his father's leadership and his own dedication to writing A Broken World. And eventually ordained himself in 1978, Bishop Curry grew increasingly active on issues of social justice, reconciliation, immigration, and marriage equality, often taking positions that were counter to a broader tradition and never shying away from opportunities to invite people to challenge convention in the name of creating a more inclusive community that welcome all with love and dignity. In May of 2018, Bishop Curry

delivered a moving sermon on the redemptive power of love at then Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's royal wedding just months after serving as the officiant for the state funerals of Senator John McCain and President George H.W. Bush in the Washington National Cathedral. Bishop Curry has also written five books. His latest, Love is the Way, Holding on to Hope in Troubling Times, which expands upon his focus on love as the centerpiece for a new way to live and find meaning and peace, even at a time where they can seem so hard to access. We explore all of this in today's Best Of conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So let's dive in. I am from New York, raised Jewish, in a very non-practicing way, but with all the traditions. So I had zero exposure to the Episcopal Church, no exposure to you whatsoever until a few years ago when I, along with, oh, 2 billion or so people around the world, tuned in. Actually, I didn't tune in live to watch the royal wedding, but then I think it was the

next day. I just kind of really quickly just searched and I saw everybody talking about this sermon from a person named Bishop Curry. So I pulled it up and I watched this sermon, which I recall I think was 12 or 13 minutes. And I was absolutely captivated watching you. And I realized that it was on two levels. One was the words, the ideas that you were sharing. The other was this sort of study in contrast where it was you in this deeply aristocratic, reserved culture and setting, but you being utterly alive and emotional and fierce. And I wondered what that moment was like for you on both those levels in terms of sharing the ideas you were sharing in this context and also experiencing this contrast. I wonder if you felt that as well. Well, you know, I mean, I really did. I mean, you couldn't not be aware on some levels. And on other levels, I was in church, which is a territory I'm relatively familiar with. And well, I have to admit, there's probably some

advantages to being in your mid-60s when you do something like that. Because at this stage of life, I really don't have too much to prove, I don't think. I mean, I'm just kind of happy to still be here. That's probably the exception. So there's some advantage in that, I suspect. But I think the contrasts were built into the occasion. And I'm not sure that everybody was aware of it. I think the couple was aware. They were aware. They were aware of what they were doing. And they were a contrast. He's British.

She's American. He's British aristocracy and a white guy. And she's Black, multiracial. They probably share the same politics, I suspect, but I don't really know. They represent two different countries and multiple cultures. As you said, one sort of aristocratic and venerable and old, hers more mixed, very much like an American bringing that together. But not only embodied in the two of them, you had it embodied in the audience. I mean, two billion people, that's like most of the people on the planet, you know, who could watch TV. I mean, that was pretty much all of us. And they, you know, they had that marvelous gospel choir, which people thought I brought them from America. I said, no, they're in London. They're they're part of you all. And a marvelous gospel choir there, a cellist, a young he's probably maybe 21 now. I think he was like 19 years old. And to listen to him command an orchestra. Needless to say, this wasn't like, you know, a slap that orchestra. This was like about the best you could get. And this 19 year old black British kid commanded. I mean, I said, oh God, now I know what Yo-Yo Ma was like at 19. You know what I mean? Those kind of,

all that stuff was going on. And then you had, I mean, I'm in and out of England a lot because the Episcopal church is part of the Anglican family, the Church of England and all that kind of stuff. So I'm in and out for meetings and that kind of stuff. I've never seen England that excited about anything. I mean, that's just not their way. But people had flags. They were way, I mean, you saw Union Jacks all over the country. It was just, it was really, it was a moment of joy, not just for Britain, but I mean, America. I mean, people were getting up early in the morning, wearing the hats, doing that, having parties all over. But this was going on over the world. I've been in Africa since then. People were watching there and East Asia. it was bigger than what was once an empire. It was bigger than a stratified class structure society. It was bigger than racial differences and variety. It was bigger than religious differences and variety. It was bigger. I mean, it was something big was going on. I could feel it. I kind of knew

it ahead of time, but being there, I was very much aware and then afterwards very much aware. That I really do believe, you know, in the movie Color Purple, based on Alice Walker's book, there's a scene where there are folk in the bar and they're partying all night. And then in the morning, the folk in the church are partying. Well, the folk in the bar are still singing their bar song and the folk in the church are singing a gospel song. And after a while, the folk in the church, they really start rocking with a gospel song and the folk in the bar hear it. Well, the girl who's lead, the woman who's leading the bar stuff is the daughter of the preacher who's sort of alienated. She's sort of a prodigal and she comes out and she starts

singing the song and leading the folk from the bar into the church. And the song they sing is God is trying to tell you something. I got a feeling that in that experience, God was trying to tell us something about God's dream and vision for the human family. And while none of us anticipated a pandemic, this kind of worldwide strife, while no one was consciously thinking of impact on climate and what that's going to mean and how we're going to navigate through that, the truth is there may have been a message, you're in this together. You need each other. You need me.

And if we do it that way, we can figure our way through. You know, I'm not a mystical person. I'm not. I mean, I wish I was, but I'm not. I mean, I'm an ordinary guy, but I could sense that you could feel that there. And I think those contrasts were brought together because God was trying to tell us something. Yeah. It does feel like there was something bigger.

There was a much bigger sort of context slash container slash unspoken message that really infiltrated the moment. And as you said, would be beautiful if we could keep that growing and expanding and amplifying that. I know you wrote in your recent book that you can't open someone else's heart without being true to your own. When you commit to being yourself in any environment, even your presence can be a powerful corrective. And it seems like when you stepped into that room, it almost felt like you made a decision that I will step in as me, as all of me, the way

I have always been. And I guess that sort of speaks to what you opened with, which is, you know, 60 some odd years into life, maybe that's a little bit easier also. You've been doing this a long time. You know who you are. So it gives you access to that differently. I think it helps. I think it really does. Because I mean, while you continue to be formed and you continue to grow and evolve and develop, that's, that's good. That's life. I mean, that means you're still alive. The only things that don't grow are dead. So you're still growing, evolving, developing and all that kind of stuff. But there's a sense in which, as the old song, I've been up and I've been down, you know, and there's more to come, I'm sure. But I'm OK with Michael.

I got my imperfections and perfections. OK, that's part of the lot. And I keep trying to improve and grow. But I'm OK that the pace is sometimes slow. And, you know, at 60, well, 65, whenever that, when that, when that service actually happened, I was just very aware of that. I was kind of settled, you know, at first, I mean, that's right. That's a pretty frightening one. I didn't know 2 billion people were going to be watching. I had no idea how many people would actually watch. Probably a good thing. Yeah, that's probably good. Yeah. And then two, it's easy to forget that you're actually on television because at the chapel, at St. George's Chapel, the cameras are recessed. You can't see them.

So you don't actually see, it's not like the old days where you see a camera and a camera person standing behind them with headphones, you know, you don't actually see them. So you almost forget that the cameras are there, which is dangerous because you don't want to scratch your nose or something because the whole world could like see you scratch your nose. And after a while, even though you're sitting in the midst, especially in that part of the sanctuary, I mean, the royal family is all up there. I mean, and, you know, that's a pretty intimidating kind of crowd. I mean, and yet they were sitting in pews just like church folk. Well, I've been around church folk a long time. I'm going back to my grandma. And I know church folk's body language, even if they don't say anything.

So I know if they're asleep or if they're really paying attention or if they're trying to, you can read the face, you can read, actually you can read the eyes. And there were moments when I could see, okay, we're connecting, we're talking, there's a conversation going on, even though there's no amens coming back at me and nobody's, you know, nobody's shouting or any of that. But I could see response, human response, the response of soul talking to soul. And that, I mean, I know that that's, I mean, from all the years of being a pastor and a preacher, and I've learned that when heart touches heart, when soul touches soul, that's when something is happening. Everything else is preliminary to that.

But when heart touches heart, I used to have a lady when I was a young priest in my 30s. And this is in Lincoln Heights, Ohio, just outside of Cincinnati, all black town, just on the outskirts of the city that was actually settled in the 20s. Part of that, the great migration that a number of people have written about over the years. Anyway, it was a fairly poor settlement of Blacks going north from the South, heading north in the 20s, 30s. Long and short, eventually, there was a church founded there. And to this day, it's a small one square mile, basically, Black African-American community to this day, struggling with all of the issues that are attendant to that. But anyway, I was there in

the 80s, and there were a few, only one or two people in the congregation who I was aware of who probably didn't read, or if they did, it was not very well. And one of them was a dear woman who worked as a domestic worker for many years and was in her 70s when I was there. And she was still having to work because, you know, Social Security is a blessing, but it's not enough. It's just not enough.

And so she would come to the early service at seven because I guess she would work the evening. And when she would, you know, feel good about something, she would like sometimes she'd come to communion, she'd clap her hand and just say, thank you, Jesus. And just clap her hand, thank you, Jesus. And, you know, little kids would giggle. They would always love to see her, you know, do that.

But every Sunday after the service, she would come to the door and, you know, you stand at the door greeting. And sometimes she would say, that was a nice message this morning. And then other times she would like say, well, that's a nice message this morning. And then other times she would like say, well, that's a nice robe you have on. So I knew, okay, we didn't connect. Other times she would come out and say, oh, you preached this morning. And it took me a while to kind of figure out what

did she, she was sending messages. Each one was a different, you know, I said, what was different when she said, oh, you preached this morning? Finally realized that it had nothing to do with my erudition. It had nothing to do with my oratorical skills. It had nothing to do with how funny I was or how animated. It had nothing to do with any of that. It had to do was did soul touch soul? Did spirit touch spirit? Did heart touch heart? Did something in her life get touched by something either that I said or evoked? And did she in that moment have an experience of a transcendent reality that was bigger than the hard work that she had to do all week long, still having to work. That's when that happens, you know, and it doesn't happen all the time, but when that happens, that's bigger than Michael

Curry. I've learned that. You can't conjure that, manufacture that. And I knew that that was true, that was going to be ahead of the service, that that was going to be true at the royal wedding. That ultimately, I was going to be ahead of the service, that that was going to be true at the royal wedding, that ultimately I just needed to somehow create space in some hearts for God to do God's

thing. And when that happens, it's not a nice talk. happened and and so i got once i got to the point of saying that's what i gotta do then i was okay it didn't matter where i was yeah it was interesting to see also you i'm sort of drawing on my memory here, but my recollection is, because I was, for some reason, I was following your gaze while you were speaking and almost entirely you were speaking to the couple. And I rarely saw you turn out to the, uh, the denomination to the congregants there, which really aligns with what you're saying. Like you had something that you wanted to create and, but fundamentally you were there to create this energy, this experience. It's almost like, I feel like you thought, well, if I can create this for these two people stepping into this thing together, then everybody else who participates in that as a, quote, observer is going to feel it, too. Yes.

And it felt like an intentional call for you. Yes. Talk to them. Talk to them and others. You know that story in Genesis by Abraham and Sarah? When God comes and talks to Abraham or God shows up and is in conversation with Abraham and Sarah, his wife, is eavesdropping at the tent, overlooking. That's what's going on. That was what was going on. I mean, I'm not God, but I mean, I was talking to this couple, I mean, to the two of them. And there were two billion

Sarahs eavesdropping at the tent. Some of those Sarahs were sitting right there in the church building. The rest of them were all watching on TV or they had big screens outside of the chapel. So there were people outside watching that way. But they were eavesdropping. And we were all eavesdropping on a conversation that was going on really between two people and hopefully God. And I was just facilitating that. And at a wedding, you can do that. I mean, that's kind of, you really are talking to the two of them because tradition is that actually the ministers of a wedding are actually the couple, not the preachers, not the clergy. The clergy are facilitating that, but actually the two ministers or whoever's getting married, they're the ones taking the vows. They're the ones, they're actually doing all the heavy lifting. We're just facilitating, just helping them out. That's such an interesting lens. I mean, you mentioned that you also, you've had your own ups and downs. You essentially grew

up in the church, born in Chicago, raised in Buffalo. Dad was Episcopal priest. Interestingly, though, I guess he didn't start out that way. Your dad came up, his dad was Baptist. But he, I guess after meeting your mom, had an experience in Episcopal church that shifted the way that he wanted to move forward. Yeah. Both of my parents grew up Baptist, kind of in the traditional Black Baptist tradition, certainly of the, well, what, late 20s, 30s, and 40s. That would have been the world in which they grew up. My mother had become an Episcopalian in college some years before, but daddy was still a Baptist when he got to, he went to undergrad at Wilberforce University and then stayed and went to the seminary. And he was going to become a Baptist preacher. That was his intent at that point. And so he knows that story is dead now. So I have to wait and get to heaven and ask them. But at some point they met, started courting and dating. And in the course of their, while they were never been in an Episcopal church. I don't even know if he had heard of the Episcopal church before that. So he had never been in one. And he had never been in a

predominantly white church. I mean, because wherever they went, I don't know the church, it was pretty much white, maybe a few blacks, I don't know. So he'd never been in either one of those contexts, which also meant he had never been in a liturgical context where communion would be served in the way in which it was served, where everyone was basically drinking from the same cup. And it was the experience of that, of communion in that setting, where he saw my mother drink from the cup during communion. And then he saw white people drink from the same cup afterward. That, and when he would tell this story, you know, when you're kids, you get tired of hearing it, but, but when he would tell the story,

he would say at that moment, that's when he realized any church that where blacks and whites drink from the same cup knows something about the gospel I want to be a part of. And so, you know, this is like 19, late 40s, 1940s, mid 40s, just after World War II. I mean, you know, Martin Luther King was in seminary himself at this point. Rosa Parks was not, was, you know, still sitting at the back of the bus. You know, Jackie Robinson hadn't happened yet. I mean, Brown versus Board of Education haven't happened yet. You know, I mean, so this is a long time before the Montgomery bus boycott, the March on Washington or Selma March or any,

it was long before all of that. This is still segregated America. And I mean, even, I mean, Harry S. Truman had not yet desegregated the military. I mean, that's the context in which we're talking. And he saw blacks and whites drinking from the same cup. And he said, know, and, and, and realistically he had to learn that even though that was the case in terms of the ritual, and it was, the whole Episcopal church had not been converted. It wasn't Shangri-La. It wasn't the kingdom of God in its fullness, but at least it had the vision of what it was supposed to be. And so he dared to live that and became an Episcopal priest. And he, you know, interestingly enough, he and I had a conversation at some point because daddy was a much more reserved, I mean, in the pulpit, he was certainly very reserved. Whatever emotion there was in him when he got to Episcopal seminary, they took it out of him.

And he said that they actually taught you that back in the, this is back in the 50s when he would have been in a physical seminary. He said that they actually taught you that the display of emotion. It should be an intellectual exercise that I don't know does what, but anyway, it's ought to be felt. Now, that doesn't mean anybody has to feel the way I feel or the way somebody else feels, but it ought to be, hopefully you believe what you're saying, or at least you're trying to believe what you're saying. And that changed by the time I went to seminary. That had really, in terms of what they teach folk in seminaries, changed dramatically. But at one point we were talking and I don't remember, I'm sure I was ordained by that time. He said, you preach like your grandfather. More of the Baptist tradition. Yeah, he was. He said, you preach like your grandfather. He said, but just remember, don't put on a show, be who you really are. That was like kind of one of those in the car conversate kind of things but I get it

I mean I really do get it you know there's I have to admit while I was nervous ahead of time at the royal wedding once I was preaching I wasn't because I was doing what I do I mean it's like

you know you think about it people who act we give them awards we give them Oscars and Emmys and Tonys and they make a lot of money because acting is hard work. Being who you actually are. It's not hard work. It actually is. Now, it takes is there's discipline and there's learning and growth. You know what I mean? I get all that. I mean, but it's not heavy lifting. It's actually lightening, letting go of a load of having to pretend and having to prove yourself.

It's presenting your best self. But your best self. And I just think there's incredible liberation in that. And I'm still trying to grow into it more and more, but there really is. Because at some point you have to say, you know what? Like me, dislike me, love me, not love me. But was it Frank Sinatra singing?

I gotta be me, I gotta be me, you know? And me is okay. Yeah, I mean, it's you know? And me is okay. Yeah. I mean, it's such a great place to get to. And I wonder if so many of us struggle to stand in that sort of like deeper essence of who we are publicly and share that person. Because if we are performing someone else

or some other facade of what we think people want or will receive openly and that gets rejected, well, we can put on a different coat the next day. We can wear a different facade. It's not the capitalist self. It's not the essence of us that they have said no to. It's this thing that we projected, whereas if we let that go and we just show up without the coat and we just say, I am, this is me. And then somebody says, well, but you're not my flavor. That hurts and we just say i am like this is me and then somebody says well well but you're not my flavor that hurts and we don't i i feel like we don't so many of us enter adulthood without the skills and the understanding uh just be okay with that and say i am not everybody's

flavor you know and that's okay like and and um so we keep wearing these you know like these these different things to try and buffer ourselves from that rather than just letting it go and then spending the time to move through the world as that person and know that eventually those who genuinely connect with that person that essence will um you'll be in community with it may take time but we're i think we're scared we'll never act that that moment will, you'll be in community with. It may take time, but I think we're scared we'll never act. That moment will never happen. So we never actually let it happen. Yeah, that's, yeah, I think there is a fear.

I know that, I mean, for all of us, I mean, still at my age of 67, still, there are moments when I feel like, oh, I've got to be, you know, I've got to be this role. Well, you know, you have roles that you have to play, but listen to the language, roles that you have to play, not roles that you or so. And I was elected bishop and I had a spiritual director, kind of a spiritual guy, somebody who kind of you check in with every month and spend time with and talk about your soul. And who was a retired bishop at the time.

And I remember joking with him, but I wasn't really joking. I said, you know, I'm feeling very awkward. All of a sudden, I've got a role that's more of a role than I'm, I mean, it's like, I can't, I'm not doing, you know, I feel awkward in it. And I was expressing all that. And I said, you know, I mean, you know, I'm not used to wearing a bishop's ring and, you know, and they have this big ring on their right hand. And it's like holding my hand down. I'm not used to that. I was using joking language about it. But I was actually wrestling with self and role.

And how are the two really related? And I remember he said, his name is Walter Dennis. He said, just travel lightly with that. You know, you try some things on and some will fit and some won't. He said, but at some point in time, it won the clothes will meet at a sweet spot, which is where you actually inhabit the role. And then you'll find that you're free. And you know, I, he, and he was saying what he was saying was, yeah,

you're going to have to try some stuff. You're going to have to play with that. And, and, and he was actually right. I mean, you had to, you got to kind of play with that. And he was actually right. I mean, you had to, you got to kind of play with that. Well, no, that didn't feel, that doesn't feel quite right. That's, that's, that's, well, that felt okay. Yeah, I wasn't sweating doing that. That was, and over time you begin to, you and the robe actually meet at a sweet spot.

And then you are the bishop or the bishop is you, whatever the right language is. And when that happens, you're inhabiting the role and inhabits you in authentic and genuine ways. And people see that. Everybody knows somebody who's full of it.

I mean, you know, we all do. I mean, and somebody who's real, we may be skeptical. Okay, is this real, really real? It's like Velveteen, Velveteen Rabbit kind of, is this really, really real, real, real? But you know something's for real

when you see it. And you know it's fake when you do. Over time. Sometimes it takes a while. But when you see it, it's a beautiful thing. Yeah, completely agree. I think you feel it more than know it cognitively. There's something that moves through you when you're

in the presence of someone who is being utterly themselves. And I wonder if we doubt it sometimes, because in my experience, it's much more the exception than the rule these days. But it's an interesting reflection to sort of find the sweet spot between stepping into something that you, in certain way inherited a certain container but also really giving yourself the freedom to play with it to dance with it a little bit to see where where is the sweet spot between where i can authentically show up and what this you know what this pre-existing thing is you know for you it was a particular role in faith you know for other people it may be a job like title position

that they're stepping into it's all the same the same dance it's learning how to bring that part of yourself still to that experience mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. One of the things that I've been curious about too is that the relationship between activism, social justice, spirituality, faith traditions. I know in your life that an understanding of the interconnectedness of those things touched down really early and never really left you. It was a part of your upbringing. It's been a part of you. I mean, you're ordained in 78. And I feel like almost immediately,

that was always a through line. It was always a bigger lens on what is happening in the community, not just in the context of what's happening in the church and with the teachings and relationship, but also how do these things weave together with ideas of justice and activism? And I know you feel strongly that social justice really needs a spiritual base to almost structurally survive. Laboring to create a just, humane, decent, compassionate, loving society and or world.

Start with communities, homes. It's work. And it is very often work contrary to the way things actually are. It is social change and change that seeks to move from what is, with whatever is wrong, to something closer to what might look like the ideal of life and liberty and abundant for all. You can't get from point A to Z. You're not going to ease on down the road. And so it is, as Frederick Douglass said, those who want change without struggle are like folk who want crops without having to plow up the ground. You've got to plow up the ground.

And so it is a struggle and it is a long term struggle where things are not accomplished overnight. You know, Dr. Martin Luther King in 1963, the March on Washington, you know, his speech and now John Lewis's speech, you know, in light of his recent death and more of an awareness of the remarkable role that he has played in the history of this country. But there had been marches on Washington that had been going on for years. I mean, there were union marches on Washington. Everybody marched. Veterans marched on Washington. Everybody marched on Washington, that had been going on for years. I mean, there were union marches on Washington. Everybody marched. Veterans marched on Washington. Everybody marched on Washington and went to the foot of the Lincoln Memorial. And yet, I mean, going back to A. Philip Randolph and the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, that's what predated that march on Washington. My granddaddy, Love, was on the railroad and was a Brotherhood of Sleeping

Car Porter man. I mean, he was an A. Philip Randolph man. I mean, and they were going to marches back in the 40s. And they were just marching for decent wages very often. But that was back in the 40s they were doing that. And finally, it kind of came to a head in 63 when there was enough media that could make it almost instantaneous so that you could actually see it. That didn't happen overnight. That happened over a long period of time. I mean, there were struggles. NAACP and others were advocating for the abolition of lynching laws in this country. And, you know, we still haven't finished it. Now we're getting close. I mean, there's legislation in Congress right now. The point is, true justice, a true, humane, and compassionate society does not happen overnight. Progress does not happen, as Dr. King said, inevitably. It happens because people are

dogged and determined to stay in for the long haul, to work passionately, to work lovingly. Because if you don't work lovingly, it's going to grind you up. It's going to grind you up and spit you out to stay in for the long haul. And the truth is, I don't have the strength on my own to stay in for the long haul. You don't have the strength on your own to stay in for the long haul. I will get bitter. I will get frustrated. I will give up. The truth is we need power greater than our own to help to sustain us through the long distance run, through the marathon that is social justice and social change. We are not going to ease on down that road. It's a long, you know, there's a passage. I mean, you know, you want Bible passages, but there is a great one.

And it's in Isaiah. They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up on wings like eagles. They shall run and not be weary. And then listen to this. They shall walk and not faint. You would think they'd faint from running. No, they shall walk. It's the walking. It's like Nelson Mandela's long walk to freedom. It is that long Selma march. It is a long walk to freedom of hard work. And we need energy that's more than just our energy. We need the energy of community, human community. But we need the energy of the great spirit of the God who is the author of love and will help us make that love happen and realize the change. And so social justice and spirituality must go together. They just have to go together. Separated, it becomes like a grape on a vine separated from the root. It'll live for a while, but it will wither up and decay. Connected to the vine, to the deep branch and root, it has a source of energy that will, it can survive. And so, yeah, I just think spirituality, I mean, it's not an accident

that Dr. King saw in Thich Nhat Hanh, for example, who he nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize. He saw something in somebody like Thich Nhat Hanh, somebody who had, there was a spirituality that enabled him to tap into the deeper roots, the deeper sources of life and energy. I mean, when we talk about God, it's easy to talk about God. No, no, no. We're talking about the source of life itself. And it's at the source that the greatest energy is to be found. That's the spark.

That's the spark. That's the energy. Got to tap into that source. If you're going to work. If you're going to swim against the current. Of the way things are. To try to help things to become. What God originally had in mind. When God first said, let there be anything beside me.

That's what Genesis, that's what the Bible says. God said, let there be something beside me. That's the beginning. Tap into that energy and then let there be light. Let there be a world, let there be a new world, which is why the work of social justice can never simply be secular work. It must combine the sacred and the secular. It must bring the best of both together. Yeah. You also shared something while you were just speaking. At some point, you used to phrase something like a loving heart. It has to come from that place, which reminded me of a conversation that you had recently with Ruby

Sales, where you were talking about this. And I think it was her who said, she said to you, the struggle for justice is the struggle towards redemption and not retribution. You have to imagine the good in people, figure out ways to call them to their higher selves, which I almost wonder if coming from somebody else, that notion may just be dismissed as being naive. Coming from Ruby Sales, who has lived this her entire life and been at the forefront of this movement, you really have to sit back and think about it and say, well, okay, so what's really underneath this? Yeah. You know, I mean, I, I mean, I'll speak for myself. I won't speak for everybody else, but I got a feeling it applies to, um, I'm a pretty good guy,

but if you hit me, I'm either going to fight or flight. We're going to one of those two. That's going to, that's going to be the intrinsic reaction now that's just sort of a not just that's just a given i mean i think if you did that to muhammad gandhi his first reaction would be fight or flight i mean that's just that's human all right and to teach me that there's a third way not simply flight but not simply fight in the old way to teach me that there's another way that maybe what I need to do is, well, what Gandhi did call moral jujitsu. That I need to take the negative, the power of your negative energy and transform it into a positive energy and then recreate the situation as best I can. I can't do that on my own. I mean, I can train myself in nonviolent techniques, just like you get trained in a fire drill as a kid in school, so that you just automatically do something if the fire alarm goes off. You don't even have to

think about it. You can train yourself in nonviolent technique, but at some point, there's a part of me that's going to want to fight or flee. And to find that third way, if you will, I need my own willpower, but I need willpower greater than my own. To engage in the work of justice and really trying to work for a just society means you must confront injustice. And to confront injustice in ways that are genuinely loving, that actually seeks to convert the heart of those who are perpetuating the injustice, as well as remove and change the injustice itself, that is extra work that Michael Curry doesn't just do by nature. That takes a little extra. I fight by nature and I'll flee by nature, but I won't seek to transform by nature. At least I don't. Now, there may be some listening.

No, not by nature. And that's why I say, I think there's all, if we're going to find the third way beyond the either or, we've got to have the author of the third way help us. And if the way of love, if God is the author of love, as I believe God is, if God is the author of true justice, as I believe God is, then I want to tap into the original source of love, the original source of justice, the original source of justice,

the original source of compassion, the original source of goodness. I want that same energy to become part of my energy. As that happens, then it becomes possible for me to be more than simply what my lower nature would do. That somehow my higher nature, when they go low, we go high. And that becomes possible. But that is not merely a humanistic endeavor. That is a partnership of the divine and the human. And I suspect that that's the reason

that many of the agents of real social change have been religious folk. It is the same impulse that creates a church cathedral that creates a young girl named Malala who stands up for girls and women in Afghanistan. It is the same sublime beauty of the medieval cathedral. That that you see in the life of a Fannie Lou Hamer.

Mississippi Freedom Party. It's the same. You see what I'm getting at? It's getting back that that beauty, the source of that beauty that we see translated into the medieval, the Gothic cathedral. It's that source that is the author or the source of the same beauty in a human life. Well lived in the life of a John Lewis. I used to see him on the planes. I live in Raleigh, North Carolina, but so I'm often back and forth, um, in Atlanta or actually in Atlanta airport a lot. Um, as, uh, the old joke says, um, wherever you're going in the South, if you're on Delta airline, you're going through Atlanta, you may be going to heaven, you may be going to hell, but if you're on Delta airlines, you're going through Atlanta first.

And, and so I live, I mean, I'm always going through Atlanta. Well, very often the flight, they're one of the flights from D.C. If you're on Friday from D.C., from National to Atlanta on Delta, you'll see members of Congress all the time because they're going home. The southern ones are heading and they're going through Atlanta, depending on where they're going. And I would see John Lewis all the time on one of those flights. And he'd always get on and always speak and was always sitting in coach. Just the normal, I mean, it wasn't affected humility. It was, he was just being himself.

And, you know, he'd sit down and talk with you. He'd talk to people on the plane. It was just kind of normal. That kind of spirit, that kind of spirit could be wiped out by the world. But a transcendent source has the power to counter what the world would try to take out of it and create a gentle, humble, powerful human being who is Mahatma great soul

and those are the folk those are the folk who change things and some of them are big ones like you know John Lewis and everybody knows about but some of them are people whose name we'd never know like

the tomb of the Unknown Soldier. Yeah. This third way, let's talk about it a bit. It was the focus of where we started our conversation, your sermon at the Royal Wedding. It has become a growing focus of every time I've seen you share words and ideas. Love is the way that it's, everything circles back to this idea of love. And we started talking about it in the context of how do you actually access that in the context of social justice? How do you approach the world from this place of love?

I think on when times are good, when you have great relationships with people whose opinions you agree and who are not causing you or society around you or those you love harm, I think a lot of us will nod along and say, well, yeah, that makes sense. I know when I have great loving relationships and I can express it and receive it, my life is a better place and the community, my world is better for that. I think we'll get pretty solid agreement with all of that. And then we sort of look at the world around us now. And I think a lot of people struggle with the notion of, okay, but what about when someone

is causing you harm? What about when we look at what's actually happening now with violence around race? When people are literally dying in the streets, how do we approach others who we perceive as or may well be in a very real and measurable way causing us or those we care about, community harm and violence? How do we approach this situation? How do we rise up from a place of activism, from this place of love and still feel, well, A, how do we actually access that in ourselves? Because it's brutally hard sometimes. And then how do we buy into the fact that if we come at the problem from that place, that will lead us.

That is the best way to get to the outcome we most seek. Wow. Ultimately, love is an action, but it's the fruit of a deeper root. It begins with an inner conviction, an inner disposition. I'm not sure what the right word, but it's something that begins within and that has to get nurtured without. I remember when I was a kid, I used to always hear folk quote Booker T. Washington. I think Booker T. Washington said it, but he's sort of like George Washington. Of course he said that. But I suspect it was Booker T. Washington who said, never let any man drag you so low as to drag you to hate him. And that was a constant refrain that I heard growing up.

And the folk who said it were often saying it, members of family, in the context of civil rights struggles. I mean, that's where it would come up. And it was the kind of thing you'd say to kids, you know. There was an inner disposition that I knew that that was the right way, that love was the right way to affect the change we wanted, because it would enable us to reflect that change as well as to affect the change itself. But how do you actually internalize that, organize it and immobilize it? an internal disposition to an actual commitment that actually leads to actions that reflect that love. And so you've got to go through those three things, the internal thing, the commitment, and then actions that reflect that internal commitment. So how do you do that? One, I think you got to do it in community. We get on each other's nerves, but we are necessary to each other.

We just really are, because there are moments when you're strong and I'm weak and vice versa. I mean, we need each other to do that. So you've got to be part of a community of folk who share that kind of commitment to. I do think you've got to have a relationship to God, not a God, I mean to God. You really do. The source of love, and you got to nurture that. And then three, you got to figure out what are the practical, tangible ways that I can actually make love live, not only in my life, my interpersonal life, but in the broader life of my community and or maybe what are the practical, who are folk who are actually, or organizations or groups who are actually doing love, doing the loving thing? Who are they? And to keep all that in focus,

you move forward with that. I saw that growing up. Now, to some extent, you know, growing up in the old black communities in those days back in the this would have been in the 60s. I mean, but in those times you had a community that was relatively I mean, relatively that was segregated. And so it's you actually had a community that was self that was self-contained and was already existent, so to speak. We don't all have that today. It's a little bit different today. But that tells me that the community is important. And so I remember hearing about when we said we got to take care of the community, there was a sense in which we needed each other to survive in a society that wasn't always friendly to our community and to us. Now, minority peoples have known that. I mean, that's not

anything new, but that's just the nature of the reality. So you do need those communities. But those communities in those days also knew that if we were going to both internalize, organize, and then mobilize this love we were talking about, that we needed concrete actions that were going to actually do it. In those days, it was clear we needed to desegregate America as much as possible. And usually schools and all that kind of stuff were the immediate targets, but everything needed to be desegregated. And so that was one approach, one set of actions. And I remember when, and this is in Buffalo, New York, when the schools, when there was a big desegregation effort, would have been, well, I was in the fourth grade going into the fifth grade. So that was,

I was in the fifth grade when John Kennedy was assassinated. I was 63. So this would have been 62, 63. There was, anyway, some big desegregation effort in the public schools. And so we were sent to, went from a school that was predominantly Black, not exclusively, but predominantly Black, to cross Main Street from East Buffalo into West Buffalo, which was predominantly Italian at that time. And so that's where we went. And so I went from fourth grade in one context to fifth grade in a completely across Main Street, if you will. Before we did that, before that happened, they brought us together Sunday school and church. I don't remember all that they told us, but they reminded us you are a representative of your community.

You are a representative of your people. You have an obligation to act in such a way that you will help us all move forward. You treat everybody with respect. You treat everybody the way you want to be treated. And you need to show what we can do as a community. That's your contribution. Now, they got even more specific. You see, if you got to internalize, organize, and mobilize, that means you need to stay out of trouble. You need to do what you're told. Don't get in fights. I mean, they got really specific. This is like more specific than the tank of mammoths. This is for kids. You know, this was how we actually mobilized. They were talking about how do you mobilize love? This was mobilized love in our context for kids. I mean, they didn't use that language, but that's what they were actually doing.

And so we went to fifth grade. Our job was to study, to learn, to stay out of the principal's office because you were in trouble about something, to do your homework. That was our job. That's what love looked like in the fifth grade for a kid, desegregating school. My point is there was community. This was in Sunday school. So it was in a context of a God context, if you will. And it was love in action. I want to suggest that that model. Is a model for us today. That now, whether it's Black Lives Matter, whether it's other protests for social justice or other works, now we must do the same kind of thing, form communities

who are committed to change that is grounded in love, that seeks the good and the well-being of everybody, not just my good and well-being, but yours as well. Good and well-being of those who perpetuate a system of oppression and injustice, because they are as enslaved as those who they seek to enslave. The slave master on the plantation in America was as enslaved, though they didn't know it, as the slave who had shackles on them. Truth is, if anybody gets free, everybody's got the possibility of getting free. And so we've got to figure out ways to form communities, to be in relationship with God, to internalize, to organize, and then to mobilize love in practical,

concrete ways. For example, Black Lives Matter, if all the protests just stay protests and do not translate into voting and do not translate into reimagining policing and criminal justice and practical, concrete ways, if it doesn't mobilize, then it is for naught. But if it is internalized, the spirit of love must be internalized and then organized and then mobilized into action. Then something positive and constructive happens as long as the internalized love continues to be the thread through the organization and the mobilization. If that thread of love gets lost, then even the cry for justice can become a cry for revenge. And that's not the change we need. That's just, Dr. King said it well, darkness cannot cast out darkness, only light can do that.

And hate cannot cast out hate, only light can do that. And hate cannot cast out hate. Only love can do that. Love must be the internalized thread that leads to action for change. And then the change will have the potential to be healing change.

It's powerful to see that show up at scale in society. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hit man. I knew you were going to be fun.

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The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You know, you've also had an interesting experience bringing this same lens to your very organization. Like, now as the first African-American head of the Episcopal Church, you almost immediately upon being elected looked within your own denomination and the organization of the church,

and it feels like you stepped in and said, where are we not doing this? You know, where are we not leading from this place? And as coming into a church where, as you described, you know, this is a denomination which is, you know, for generations and generations been largely white. But also it's been a denomination, as many faith-based denominations are. They have rules of inclusion and exclusion. One of those being, and this is something you took a stand on very early, marriage equality, and saying we want to be a place where if we are truly leading with a loving heart,

then we need to love all and not judge and exclude. And so it was interesting to see you take this idea or ideal and actualize it and mobilize it and then put weight and action behind it within the organization and the community of the church. And at the same time, it wasn't universally received well by everyone within, you know, but you had an interesting take. You know, you say like, this is my belief system. This is how I believe we need to move forward. That it is important to, um, to acknowledge people with, you know, of different genders, sexual orientations, races, and invite, and make this a place where we love all of them. We offer that to all of them. That is where we come from. Some people said, but that is not how I understand our tradition to have gotten us to this place. You had a really interesting quote about this. It was a conversation you had with somebody at the New York Times not too long ago, where you shared, what I believe

about human equality and dignity is grounded in what I believe about the love of God, and that love is not coerce. So I have to respect my brothers and sisters who differ on this question enough to not be coercive. And I just think to myself, it's a really interesting and delicate place to be when you believe in your heart that this thing really matters and that you would love to see, as we talked about earlier, a transformation of those who also are part of the leadership to adopt this same belief set and to open the arms as widely as you would love to see them opened. And yet at the same time, there's something inside of you that says, I need to also at

the same time love who they are in this position that they're currently standing in and keep doing the work to hopefully see them evolve but not in this it was interesting language coercive quote coercive way yeah yeah i i you know and it's it's delicate it is a delicate difficult because it's especially when i was a a Bishop of North Carolina for 12 years, the Episcopal church had been working a long time around the concerns of human sexuality and what would full inclusion of LGBTQ folk in the life of the church fully, what does that look like? And what does that mean? I mean, the church kind of said that all are welcome, and it said that. But you've got to live into it. You've got to figure out what does that mean? I mean, what does that look like? And I can't remember the exact year, but the ordination of Bishop Gene Robinson as Bishop of New Hampshire kind of

crystallized it. I mean, again, there was a lot that had gone on before that, as Bishop of New Hampshire, kind of crystallized it. I mean, again, there was a lot that had gone on before that, but kind of crystallized it. And it was a moment when the church kind of had to decide. It was a moment of deciding, who are we going to be? I don't remember exactly what year it was. I want to say 2003. In fact, it was. It was 2003 when Bishop Robinson was elected, who was a gay man, a partnered gay man. This was prior to marriage equality. Marriage hadn't happened yet. But he was a partnered gay man, a priest of longstanding, and he was elected and eventually ordained Bishop of New Hampshire. And that really caused a firestorm in the church, both here in the state that I love. And so it was, even though there had been education and all sorts of work that had been going on,

and even in the Episcopal church for years, this was a cultural, this was a mindset that was fundamentally being challenged. And eventually, I mean, I made it clear here when I was in North Carolina that I believed that this was the right thing mine who were of the same gender. At the time, I said, I know gay people who have been in marital-like relationships for years, decades, and I'm seeing real love there. And if I'm seeing real love there, can it be that where true love is found, God himself is there? And, you know, I went back and looked at scriptures and wrestled and did all of that and kind of came to the conclusion that, you know, the dominant law in scripture is love. That is the dominant law. And I'm sorry, you know, you may agree with me or disagree, but I believe that that is the dominant. It is the

dominant thing in the teachings of Jesus. You see it in the Hebrew scriptures. You see, I mean, Jesus got it from the Hebrew scripture. You see it in Christian scriptures. And if you look deeply in religious traditions, you will see that this way of unselfish, sacrificial love that seeks the good and the well-being of others, as well as the self, undergirds religion at its best. It's there. And I mean, the New Testament says that God is love. I mean, it actually makes that bold declaration. I mean, my God, think about that. God is love, which means the source of any kind of genuine love that you see or experience is actually God. If that is true, then the love that I feel and believe that God has for me is the same love that God has for you. And where true love is found, God himself is there. And on the one hand, it was a step, but not a leap for me at that point in my

life to say that about my understanding of folk who are LGBTQ folk, that if God loves them, like that old hymn says, just as I am without one plea, if God loves them the same way God loves me, then the church has to change. What I didn't anticipate was the realization that the same love that I believe God has for LGBTQ folk, God has for the folk who opposed changing the church. That love is an equal opportunity employer. That this way of love must somehow embrace us all. Make the change, but make the change in ways that include us all.

And that meant it would be easy in one hand, you know what I mean? Easy to be self-righteous and, oh yeah, I'm standing up for the good cause and all that kind of, that's easy. What's more difficult is to stand for what you believe is right and at the same time make space for those who disagree with you

in genuine love, respect, and charity. And to hold those two in tension. And to try to hold both of those together. That is the hard work of love that seeks to change what hurts and harms and yet seeks to change in ways that lead to healing for all. But it's the only way of change

that really changes. Any other way is just one side winning and another side losing. I think they tried, they were working on that in South Africa when instead

of having the Nuremberg-like trials for the perpetuators of apartheid, they realized that they needed to do something that would help to set the stage for the long-term healing of South Africa. And they moved to another model, not of victor and vanquished, but one of truth and reconciliation, where the truth must be told, and there must be judgment. People must be accountable. And yet the eventual goal must also be reconciliation

to renew and restore relationships between people. That's the hard work, the hard discipline of love. Dr. King talked about it in terms of nonviolence. It is the nonviolent way that he said it well at the end of the Montgomery bus boycott 1956 or so. He was asked about the boycott and he said, you know, to be sure we wanted to desegregate public transportation. And that was the immediate, you know, proximate. That was what we were mobilizing for. And he said the goal was, you know, desegregation. You know, the goal was integration. So the goal, the goal was reconciliation. The goal was redemption. And then he said, no, the goal is the creation of the beloved community. That that is the ultimate goal.

You can't get the beloved community by unloving means. You got to love the whole way. And I said to later when I was presiding bishop and said to other archbishops from LGBTQ folk makes space for you and me, even when we disagree. That's the power of love. And ultimately, it will set us all free. Yeah. Feels like a good place for,

uh, for us to come full circle as well. so we've been having this conversation is this container and the good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up to live a good life is to live a life where love defines who you are and makes you more than you ever dreamed you could be. That's a good life. Thank you.

Thank you, John. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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