Good Life Project - How to Talk About Sex, Let Go of Shame & Get What You Need | Vanessa Marin

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

Sex and relationship expert Vanessa Marin discusses the taboo nature of discussing sex and how it can lead to unmet needs and dissatisfaction in relationships. Her new book, Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, provides practical exercises and dialogue prompts to improve communication around intimacy, breaking down shame and stigma. Through open discussions on touchy subjects and setting rituals for intimacy, Marin believes couples can foster deeper connection, igniting intimacy and enhancing their love lives.Many people struggle to openly discuss sex due to shame and stigma.Open communication about sex and intimacy is important for a healthy relationship.Vanessa recommends five core conversations: acknowledgment, connection, desire, pleasure, and exploration.She provides practical methods to make these conversations easier.Rituals like makeout routines can create intimacy Understanding one's desires, boundaries, and pleasures enables satisfying communication.Giving positive feedback during sex helps partners figure out each other's pleasures.Scheduling sex demonstrates priorities but reframing as "planning" can help.You can find Vanessa at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Eli Finkel about the self-actualized marriage.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I believe so much in love and I believe so much in intimacy. I know what it feels like to have that kind of connection. I know how special it feels, how magical it feels. I know the impact that it can have on my own life and the way that it just brings so much more energy and vitality and excitement to day-to-day life. And I want couples to get to experience that. So have you ever wondered how and when sex, which every person who has ever lived is a product of and can be a source of deep connection, communication, and pleasure, how it became such a sensitive, cringeworthy, and sometimes shame-inducing subject?

How it's led to so much bottling up of feelings, stifling of needs, and unrequited yearnings that's left so many longing for more closeness in their relationships. I mean, how did such a fundamental part of the human experience become so taboo? And how can we break the patterns to get way more comfy, not just talking about it, but also sharing our needs, desires, curiosities in a way that brings us together rather than drives us apart. To help answer these questions, sex and relationship expert Vanessa Martin reveals how simple yet meaningful communication shifts can transform conversations with your significant other. Vanessa, the author of the new book, Sex Talks,

the five conversations that will transform your love life, helps us overcome the shame, the stigma, the misconceptions around intimacy that leave even loving couples feeling disconnected. She provides practical exercises and prompts that couples can implement immediately to start vulnerable yet joyful dialogues that reconnect them emotionally and physically. And in this conversation, Vanessa discusses how setting rituals, exploring non-sexual touch, and carving out scheduled alone time shows our partners we desire closeness with them above all else. Making sex a priority through open communications demonstrates our priorities and values, ultimately inspiring the very deeper intimacy that we seek. And while avoiding tough conversations may seem easier,

Vanessa also reveals how honest dialogue about topics we're taught to feel shame around, from pleasure and enjoyment to mismatched desire, can paradoxically build the trust and safety that allow vulnerability and closeness to grow. And to make it easier in her book, she provides just tons of specific exercises, even words and scripts, some of which we dive into in today's conversation. So if you're ready to become just uncomfortable enough to have the important conversations that can bring you and your partner closer together, Vanessa shares the communication shifts and techniques that can really help ignite intimacy, transform your life, and fulfill your deepest desire to feel truly known and connected with the one you love. So excited to share this that can really help ignite intimacy, transform your life, and fulfill your deepest desire

to feel truly known and connected with the one you love. So excited to share this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. You know, I think sort of like the obvious starting point here is there seems to be, and I feel like it almost doesn't matter what age you are, what culture you come from,

what demographic, where you live. There seems to be this enduring difficulty around the idea of talking about anything having to even moderately do with the topic of sex. Where does this come from? What's underneath that? We are all raised to feel a lot of shame and discomfort and embarrassment around sex. I mean, often when I get asked this question, I like to turn it around and say, well, why would we think it would be easy? What examples have we had? What lessons have we been taught that make us feel like it should be something that we would all be super comfortable talking about? But we've just had centuries and longer of feeling ashamed and embarrassed about this, receiving negative messages about sex,

and even just seeing things on TV and movies where nobody ever has to talk about sex, which leaves us feeling like, well, if we really have great chemistry, if I'm with the right person, we shouldn't have to, right? There's just so much that gets stacked against us. Yeah. That's the fairy tale that you talk about, which layers so much. It's interesting because as I was reading your book, so many incredible questions and prompts throughout. And I was sort of thinking about them in context of my own life and especially this opening question around like, where does the baggage come from? And I remember being a little kid growing up with a mom who's basically a hippie and literally hearing the words come out of her mouth. Why is it okay for the media to show guns that shoot war, but not life? And like, she was all about just,

can we be open around all these things? And I think I realized at a really early age, how unusual, how kind of weird that was, that that was actually something that was like a sentence that was uttered, let alone a topic that was actually even open to conversation in my house. I was an outlier, but it took me a while to realize how much that was true. Absolutely. You're incredibly rare situation, but I do think it's important for us to recognize that this shame and embarrassment that we're carrying, it's external. It's not because of ourselves. None of us was born feeling ashamed or embarrassed of sex. We were all taught to be, and we've been part of generational teachings of shame and embarrassment. But at our core, we are like your mom, just feeling like it's a normal topic.

It should be something that we can talk about openly. If we take it one layer deeper, shame about what? Shame embarrassed by or about what? Embarrassed by or about what? What's sort of like the rest of that sentence? Yeah, that's the interesting thing is when you ask people that question, sometimes there is an answer that comes to mind like, oh, I'm just embarrassed to ask for what I want, or I'm embarrassed to have my partner focus on my pleasure. But for a lot of us, we can't even identify what it is that we feel so ashamed and embarrassed about. There's just this kind of lingering sense of, I don't know, it just doesn't feel good. because if you look at the art of other cultures, especially like the ancient art traditions of Eastern cultures, I mean, deeply erotic and completely mainstream.

So I wonder, do you feel like there's a cultural overlay that relates to this too? Absolutely. I mean, there are a lot of cultural differences with this. I mean, what comes to mind for me is I spent a couple of years, my husband and I lived in Berlin and whenever we would meet people

and get that inevitable, what do you do? I'm a sex therapist. And so many German people would ask me, what is that? Why? They couldn't even conceptualize why is there a need for this type of profession? Because Germans are very much like Europeans. Obviously, that's a huge group of people that we're stereotyping into here. But in general, there's more openness in Europe to talking about sex. And in Germany in particular, it's just it's talked about more often. It's more open. There's not that same sense of shame. So this idea that, yeah, they couldn't even quite wrap their heads around. Well, what do you do? What is the need for this role? It was really fascinating.

Right. It's almost like, well, but what do you actually do for your real work? Because I couldn't possibly support you. Meanwhile, you get to the shores of this country and it's like all day, every day. You brought up this notion of expectations and sort of performing to a certain illusion or delusion. There's this fantasy that's portrayed by mainstream media, by Hollywood. I mean, before we even start to really get into it, that really plays into just the grand picture that we have of the way that things should be when we not just talk about, but do this thing called sex. Yeah. I mean, we see thousands and probably millions of repetitions of sex scenes on TV and in the movies. And most of them are very

similar. They really unfold in the same way. It's that moment of passionate eye contact. There's no communication necessary. You're ripping your clothes off a few seconds later, dashing off into the bedroom, a 10-second little montage of some sheets artfully draped and then both people just passing back out on the pillow wildly satisfied. And I think the challenges in our rational adult brains, we can understand, okay, this is a movie or it's a TV show. They're taking some artistic liberties. Maybe this isn't exactly what real life looks like. But when we see that same scene over and over and over again, our entire lives, of course, we're going to internalize it to some degree and start feeling like, well, that's what my sex life is supposed to look like. Or even, oh,

it would be really nice if that's what my sex life looked like. I think it really does come down to the repetition of it that makes it so ingrained within us. Yeah. I mean, you talk about this phrase, sexual perfectionism, and I feel like this is kind of what you're describing here, right? Yeah. I came up with the term sexual perfectionism to describe this pressure that so many of us put on ourselves to have sex that unfolds perfectly and effortlessly, just like we see it in the movies. I mean, you really never see any moments of imperfection in the movies. In the rare times that you do, it's because somebody is the butt of a joke, right? We're making fun of that person. But you never

see the little things that happen and that can go wrong during sex. And so again, it's this internalization effect. A lot of us see these scenes so much that we feel like that's what I'm supposed to look like. I'm supposed to be confident all the time. And I'm supposed to please my partner better than anybody has ever pleased them. Anytime I try something new, it should be perfect. And it can create this really crippling performance pressure for us. Yeah, especially because the reality of our lives and so often what's depicted in popular media is also, it's a certain demographic and it's a certain age and it doesn't represent the full spectrum of humanity also, or the full spectrum

of a lifespan. And you write about it and talk about this like different cycles in your life, you know, if you have kids, it's going to completely change the nature of how, when, why, like all the different things. And if you hold yourselves to this idealistic standard, it seems like how could you be anything but let down? Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, the lack of diversity is really damaging as well. You know, if you're anybody other than cis, white, heterosexual, you just don't even see people who look like you or even way that my body looks, the color of my skin, my ability levels. You can start to feel like you don't deserve that kind of pleasure or that connection that you see on the screen. I mean, beyond sexual perfectionism and trying to perform to a certain impossible standard, before you even get into an interrelational thing, before you start talking about conversations that you have with other people and then actually engaging and having sex, that there's also a profound lack of self-awareness, self-knowledge. I mean,

if you think about it, there's a little education for everything you could imagine in this country. But the one thing that increasingly is actually going missing from schools, like that sex ed class, like you just described, if there's a class that's constantly in the butt of a joke, or that is the thing that nobody wants to talk about, parents don't want to talk about it, or they might not, their kid's even in there, it's that. And then you wonder if even what's in it is remotely helpful. Yeah. I mean, the sex education that I got, the entirety of it at school was watching a video of a woman giving birth and we got a travel size deodorant. That is all I remember from it. And that was sex ed. But if I think back at it now, like, great, I'm glad that

I learned how to use deodorant. That has been a useful life skill. But I learned nothing about my body, about pleasure, really nothing about safety, boundaries, consent. Like there's so many important topics that got left out of that. And I think what you were first starting to speak to is this feeling of not even knowing ourselves in this very essential way. I mean, you asked me that other question earlier about what is it that we're so ashamed about.

And I said, a lot of people don't even know. In a similar way, a lot of us just feel like, you know, if you were to ask somebody, well, what do you like with sex? What makes sex great to you? A lot of us will just say, I don't really know. I've never even taken the time to think about that question, despite feeling all this pressure for it to be perfect and effortless and beautiful. We don't even know what that version of perfect looks like for us. And even if we try to spend a little bit of time thinking

about it, it feels like such a perplexing question, such a huge question. Where do I even start? Who am I sexually? What do I like? It just feels very scary for a lot of us. Yeah. And yet it's so central to so many of our lives. And if you ask the question, what's your favorite color? What was your favorite dessert? What's the favorite trip you've been on? What's your favorite movie, favorite song? You probably get a top five list for each one of those different categories. You frame anything related to sex and people probably just like a doe and like a deer in headlights. So how can we start again, before we even get into like a relational level, how can we start to say, explore our own preferences, our own desires, our own,

the things that actually are meaningful to us? I do love starting with the question, what makes sex feel great to you? And you will probably have that moment or a few moments of thinking like, I don't even know where to begin with this one. So we do have a lot of exercises in sex talks to try to provide options and frameworks. One example is the sex personality types. Like I came up with these models of different personality types and they're all focused around answering that central question, what makes sex feel great for you? So it can be amazing to run through that list and start to get some ideas. But another way to do this is to also think about some of your favorite sexual experiences.

And even that feels scary, like just say like some good ones. They don't have to be the favorite ones, but some good ones and look for common threads. What were specific things within those interactions that made it feel good? Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense, especially as a starting point. Some of the other things that you explore are notions that I think we sometimes take for granted, like the notion of spontaneous versus responsive desire, I thought was really interesting and probably trips a lot of us up because we've never really thought about it. Oh, that's such a huge area that trips people up. Yeah. I mean, and this comes down to the fairy tale as well. The way that we see sex portrayed on TV and in

the movies, desire is always spontaneous. It pops out of nowhere. It just strikes you in the moment like lightning. And it always happens to be the perfect moment too. Like the lightning strikes both of you, you magically have the time, the space, the privacy, the energy to be intimate right in that very moment. So some people do have desire that feels spontaneous, which means that in their brains, the idea of sex comes up kind of randomly or out of the bloom. But a lot of other people are what's called responsive desire. And so that's actually the exact reverse of spontaneous desire. So spontaneous is I feel it in my head first, and then my body will start to get excited afterwards. And responsive is I need to feel

it in my body first and then my head starts to catch up and think, oh yeah, this is a fun idea. So one of the classic ways of knowing that you might be a responsive type is if you've ever been in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex and thought to yourself, huh, this is really fun. Why don't I ever seem to want this more? That's a classic sign that you're responsive. Research has shown that women tend to be more in the responsive camp and men tend to be more in the spontaneous camp, but everybody can experience each type of desire. But it is really important to understand if you are a responsive desire, nothing is wrong with

you. It doesn't mean you're broken. It doesn't mean you're low sex drive. It just means you have to look at your desire in a different way. You have to appeal to your body first, not to your head first. Yeah. It's so interesting. Do you have a sense for whether, and there's a research on whether this is more like state-based versus trade-based, like, is this actually something where it just, this is the way you are and you're going to be this way for life? Or is it something that can change and shift over time? There isn't any research about that that I know of. Anecdotally, I do think that it's something that can shift. A lot of people will report that they feel more spontaneous at the beginning stages of a relationship and it might switch to being

responsive a couple of years in. A lot of moms will tell me that they feel like once they had kids and life started to feel more full, more complicated in certain ways, it felt like responsive desire tended to surface for them. But yeah, there's no specific research that I know of about that. Yeah. getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight risk. One of the other things that you talk about in the sort of, you know, getting to know yourself category is the notion of boundaries. And again, I think this is one of those things where beyond the domain of sexuality, boundaries is just a huge issue for so many people. We've talked to a number of psychiatrists and therapists and experts in the domain over the years. And it seems like this is a thing that is a huge part of every person's life that people really don't understand well. And similar to what you're describing with even a conversation around sex, boundaries are this thing where often people, it just triggers shame and self-blame. And like,

this is not okay. My preference is not okay. It's not quote socially acceptable. So especially in the context of when you're talking about sex, boundaries is a huge issue as well. And I think with sex, even more shame tends to come up around boundaries. We are starting to talk about sex more openly. We have been making progress over the decades, but there's this interesting wrinkle that has come into play now where a lot of people are thinking, oh, well, if I'm truly sexually progressive or sexually liberated, I should have no boundaries. I should be wild and uninhibited and down to do anything. And I do think it's really important for us to recognize that you can have boundaries and still

have an incredible sex life that feels exciting and fulfilling and passionate and wild and all those things. But boundaries are there to help us feel that sense of safety and that sense of aliveness. Boundaries are not a bad thing. They're not a sign that you're a prude or that you're too restrictive or anything like that. Boundaries are an incredibly important and very special part of all of our sex lives. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like, this is just expressing, well, this is what's okay with me. You talk about three distinct types of boundaries also in the context of sex. Walk me through these. So with boundaries, I think it's really important for us to evaluate our boundaries. So I always start from the perspective of you are allowed to have whatever boundary you want to have with your

sex life. It's your body, Like always have to give that caveat. But with boundaries, when it comes to sex, I found that a lot of us have boundaries that are actually more indicative of sexual shame and embarrassment that we've been taught. So I think in sex talks, I give the example of oral sex. A lot of women have been socialized to believe that our bodies and our genitals in particular, they're icky and they're weird and nobody would want to have their head down there. And so we develop this discomfort with receiving oral sex. But I think it's important to make this distinction between, is it a discomfort or is it a boundary? So I encourage people to ask themselves, what is it about my boundary?

What is it about this thing that I don't want to do or I'm not open to doing in the bedroom? What is it about that that I'm feeling this resistance to? So is there an actual safety based reason? So this might come up a lot with survivors of sexual abuse. Maybe receiving oral sex was part of the abuse. And yeah, that would make a lot of sense if it's not something that feels safe to you right now or ever. Is it a values-based thing that might come into play? So the example that I gave there is maybe if you have the value of monogamy, then you wouldn't want to have a threesome, for example. So those are the most important characteristics for us to like question our boundaries around. And then I also

make the space for, it's fine for us to just have preferences. You know, it's okay if you think, yeah, I'm just not really open to doing that thing. And I don't necessarily have a safety or a values-based reason why I'm saying no, but it's just not something that feels exciting or fun to me. That's fine too. But I think it is just so valuable for us to go through that questioning process of where this resistance, where does it come from? Is it actually serving me? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, and the way you describe it also, it's also not sort of like a bright line, like this is the boundary for every person, for everything, for every moment of my life, that they're probably context sensitive and also person sensitive.

Absolutely. And that can be such a helpful way to evaluate your boundaries too. And so I think it can be interesting to divide things up into sort of a, sometimes I call it like a red light, yellow light, green light. So the green lights are, you know, I'm always good to go. This thing is always on the table for me. The red lights are the obvious, like, nope, that's a hard no for me. Never interested, never going to go there. And then the yellows are where it gets really interesting, where maybe it might be, you know, this is something that for me personally, I'm not interested in, but maybe if I had a partner that

was really into it, I'd be willing to consider it for them. Maybe I would only do this thing with somebody that I feel very safe with. Maybe I would only do this thing in these specific contexts. So that's another great way to play around with the boundaries and see, is there actually any curiosity here? Yeah. Curiosity, I think is such a powerful word when you talk about this. One of my favorites. Because it's like always, well, if you're not entirely sure how you feel about something, well, it's almost like, well, what's the safe experiment that I could run even for no other reason than just to learn how I feel, to gather information.

So I can actually figure it out moving forward. Yeah. Curiosity to me is the antidote to the perfectionism. Curiosity implies I don't have to know exactly what I want, know myself. I don't have to predict the future. I just have to be curious and see. And I love running experiments just for the sake of seeing what kind of data do I get out of it. I do that a lot for my job. I kind of consider myself the guinea pig for anything that I'm going to suggest to my community. But I think most people could benefit from taking that kind of viewpoint as well. Like, I'm curious, let me just see what this is like. What information do I gather? Yeah. And by the way, anyone listening has not followed your Instagram account. You very publicly run a lot of experiments suggested by your community,

which is always a lot of fun to ride along with. So we can learn from your experiments, which is kind of fun. I embarrass myself a lot on social media. So I'm happy to be, just have people laughing along. It's really important to me to help people realize that sex doesn't have to be so serious. We know, we've been talking so much already about the shame and the embarrassment and that's understandable. And I want people to have the tools to feel like they can start to move through those feelings. And sex is also just weird and funny and awkward.

And it's okay for us to laugh at it and to not feel like it has to be serious all the time. I think some of my favorite sexual memories with my husband Xander have been times that we're laughing and just having a good time together. I love that. I mean, the whole notion of what if this was just play? What if there were no expectations? What if there was no performance standard? What if it was just open and curious play? And maybe it works out well, maybe it doesn't. But at least if the bottom line metric was, did we have fun? I wonder how that would change just the way that people step

into the relationship, into intimate moments. One of my most recent best examples that I have is Xander and I did a podcast all about trying out weird sex tips from the internet, all the stuff from TikTok that you're like, does that actually work? So we did a whole episode about that. We did some research sessions to prepare for the episode. We tried out all these tips and pretty much all of them were disastrous things that I would never try again. I don't know why that's out there on the internet, but we had so much fun together. I mean, we were crying, laughing at parts of it. And so that'll be one of my favorite memories that I have with him is just this disastrous experimentation session, but just being there in the moment with him and laughing at things and taking that pressure off

of ourselves to get it right the first time. I mean, it's truly something that I'm never going to forget for the rest of my life. Yeah. I love that. I mean, just the notion of converting it to play rather than performance is I think just a huge mindset shift. You invite people to have these five sort of core conversations around sex, each one covering a different topic. And I want to kind of walk through the five different ones and some of the ideas that you have around that. But you also, before you dive into them, you tease out a set of what you call nine golden rules, which is basically like, here are the ground rules for the conversation. Before we get into the conversation, here's the foundation. And it's a lot of things that you would probably think about just about dignity-centered, respectful conversation, like

being gentle and soft and using eye language to personalize it. And among those guide rules, you also have some things to avoid, which I thought was interesting. One of them being hiding requests and questions. Tell me more about this because that was a really interesting point. Yeah. We've been getting so much feedback about this chapter, people telling us, I bought this book to learn how to talk about sex, but I actually learned how to talk about everything. Right. It's so broadly applicable. Yeah. I think, you know, if you can learn how to talk about sex, you really can talk about pretty much anything in your life. And so that chapter in particular

has a lot of great foundational communication exercises. I kind of took like, let me take all of my psychology grad school experience and boil it down into one chapter for you. But all those tips can be used in so many different circumstances. So this particular one that you're mentioning, don't ask questions that aren't questions is one of my favorites because I realized I was doing it. So I think the example that I give in the book is that there was a season of Xander in my relationship where he was working in the corporate world. He was working really late most nights. And I used to ask him very often, hey, are you almost done with work? And the answer that he would give me was very factual, like, no, I'm not, or it's going to be a couple more hours, or I'm not sure when I'm going to be home. And I would get really frustrated by that response. And I eventually realized like what I'm actually saying to him is I miss you and I want to spend time with you. And this is hard on me that you're working late every single night of the week. But because I was asking it as this logistical question, he was answering it with a logistical answer.

And I was feeling like he was completely missing me. You know, he's answering it, but he's not addressing that core need that I actually had beneath the question. So once I realized, oh, this is not actually a question. I'm not setting him up for success. Actually, I'm setting him up for failure. Then I started shifting it and actually sharing with him what my experience was and giving him the opportunity to address

those underlying feelings. Yeah. I mean, it's like this simple shift between like, hey, what time are you going to be home versus something like I would imagine, hey, I'm kind of really missing you. Like any chance that you could come home a little earlier so we could spend some time together. Yeah. Once I started asking it in that way, he would say, oh yeah, you know, let me see what I can do here. Or even I can't do it tonight, but let me make sure I have myself set up for tomorrow. So that made it so much better. And it also forced me to understand myself better. What is it that I'm really wanting or needing in this moment? Am I actually just annoyed, you know, or am I feeling that sense of loneliness and desiring that connection with him? So once I

could understand what I needed, then I could actually communicate that to him and give him a chance to meet those needs. Yeah. I mean, and that last part I think is so it's nuanced, but it's so important. It's like when we communicate really the request rather than the question with a request veiled in it, we give the other person the chance to actually respond, not to the surface level question, but to actually the genuine need. And I wonder how much friction gets caused in relationships across the board, regardless of what the topic is, by that simple missing of each other and slow build of upset and frustration and potentially anger rising to level of contempt over time.

That was absolutely, it was starting to happen to us. It was this, yeah, I kept asking the questions and building up the resentment and not even understanding why am I so annoyed at this? So I do think it's so much easier for us to live in that logical realm with each other of like, yeah, what time are you coming home? It's going to be this time. What do you want after dinner? It's so much harder for us to drop down a level into the vulnerability, into the getting curious with ourselves and wondering what is it that's actually coming up for me. But what's so beautiful is that when we lead with that vulnerability, when we share that vulnerability with our partner, that's what true intimacy is. And in the end, going back to this

example, it honestly didn't matter how often he was able to come home on time versus stay home late. It was just us seeing each other and understanding what that need was and what that vulnerability was. That made things feel so much better between the two of us. So it's interesting. We get into these long-term relationships and we think, oh, I've been with this partner for so long and we know each other so well. And yet we're so hesitant to be truly vulnerable, even with the person that we love the most in this world. So I hope a lot of the book encourages couples to access that vulnerability and share that vulnerability because that really is the definition of intimacy for me. It's just that you fall into a groove where you forget it matters. It's almost like it's not even intentional. And you don't realize the effect that it's happening until it starts to compound over time. And then you're like, ooh, something feels like it's going off the rails here.

I mean, I'm married for 25 years and with my wife for 30 years. And when you're together that long, you go through seasons of good communications, like raising a kid, like everything gets blown up and it takes effort, I feel like, to keep coming back to these things and realize like, we really love each other. We really want to be clear with each other. We really want to express how we feel with each other. You just kind of, you get so caught up in all the other things in life, you kind of forget that it matters. It's unbelievable how easily that happens. I mean, Xander and I will still go through seasons like that. And by the way, I love that you include the how long you've been married

and together. I always do that too. I'm like, we've been married for 11, together for 15. I want those four years to count. I like to recognize them. But yeah, we'll still go through seasons where we'll start to notice that we're feeling disconnected and have to kind of snap ourselves out of it. Like, whoa, we just got sucked back into the routine again. I think as humans, it's just so easy for us to get into a routine, get into the swing of things. And before we know it, it's feeling like a rut and we're feeling disconnected. So it is this dance that we keep doing with each other of getting close again, and then drifting apart again, and needing that reminder to draw ourselves closer again, and then we drift apart again. So I think that's also part of what we need to normalize is that you're not going to have these five conversations and then smooth sailing for the rest of your life. You're done. You're always going to have to keep finding each other again. Yeah. It's more of a practice rather than intervention. It's like, this is just what

we keep returning to. So let's talk about some of these conversations. And we kind of dipped into some of them in different ways a little bit already. The first one you offer up is a conversation around acknowledgement. What are we actually talking about when we're talking about acknowledgement? We are literally just talking about acknowledging sex is a thing and we have it. You would be surprised by how many couples have really never talked about sex very openly in their relationship or couples who have only ever thought about sex. We only ever bring it up when something is wrong or feeling off. We have a complaint to make. And so in most relationships, sex doesn't feel like a safe or comfortable topic of conversation.

So what we wanted to do with this first conversation, especially knowing that people are going to be nervous, we know it takes some bravery to pick up a book about sex, we really wanted to ease people into it and start with a first step that just felt doable for people. So this is just getting comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation. And one of the very practical exercises that we have in that chapter that anybody can do after you listen to this podcast or when you see your partner tonight. So take a moment of time to think about one of your favorite sexual memories with your partner and then share that with them later. And that's all you're doing. It's literally just sharing the experience. So you can say something like, you know what just popped into my head randomly today? I was just thinking about that time that we were on that trip and X, Y, Z happened.

If you're feeling really shy about this, you can also just send it to your partner as a text message or even as an email. But what you're doing in this very simple act is just starting to set the communication foundation that sex can be something that is safe, even kind of fun and flirty to talk about. So here's what popped into my mind as you were saying that. I can see that being a really fun way to step into the conversation. I wonder if there are guardrails to this also. If you happen to be somebody, maybe you're in a newer relationship also, and you don't have a ton of history with someone, and maybe the first thing that would come to your mind would be,

if you're like, oh, that thing that I remember that was amazing, it actually wasn't with the partner that you're with now. Is that a guardrail that you have to be? Right. Because I imagine there are things that you really have to be careful about in this conversation. Yeah. Do not share your favorite memory with your ex. That would be bad. Make sure it's with your current partner. Yeah. Just a memory with them. Right. So kind of like a basic understanding, know, understanding, but we hope, like, I hope that's clear to everybody.

Make it about like this relationship. Yeah. They'll think like, who is this woman and her terrible advice? My partner was furious and so hurt hearing about my ex. No, it's with your current partner. The five ways to have disastrous conversations. Exactly. That's the next book.

Right. and it's the fastest charging Apple Watch getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes the Apple Watch Series 10 available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iPhone XS or later required charge time and actual results will vary So the conversations that you have just casually, the conversations where you have to sort of get to know each other and talk about the fact that there's this thing between us, we're

doing it and sharing your ideas and preferences. And then there's this notion of post-gaming. Tell me more about this. The post-game is my name for starting to talk about sex after you've had sex. So I do recommend at first having more of the conversations that I just mentioned of like sharing favorite memories. So having talks about sex completely separate from sex. The post game is the next step. So we're kind of shortening the

window between when we talk about sex and when we have it. So it's after you've had sex. And I think that this can work so well because you've just had a really specific example that you can turn to. So when you first start having the post game, it could literally be as simple as saying, that was fun, or I enjoyed that, or I feel really close to you right now. You're just getting comfortable talking about it, acknowledging we just did it. But as you get more comfortable, you can start sharing more details about what you liked about that specific interaction. So maybe there was a way that your partner initiated it.

Maybe there was a certain part of your body that they touched that felt so sensitive and good for you or a certain way that they kissed you. So it gives you some examples to look at. And so it's good for you getting a better understanding of yourself, what you like, what works for you, and you're sharing it with your partner. So it just feels like a nice moment to also extend the intimacy between the two of you two instead of just immediately grabbing for your phones or hopping up to go to the bathroom like most people do. Yeah. I wonder if, do you have any sense for whether there is a quote, appropriate timeframe for like a post-g you know, it's the type of thing where

it's like, is it really nice and great if it happens immediately afterwards versus, you know, like a week later you come back and is it a different experience? Is there a different value proposition there? I think anytime you want to loop back around to it is fine. And especially in this initial stage of just getting comfortable with it. And the great thing about this too is, you know, you're sharing positive things with your partner. So there is no expiration date on when we can say kind things to our partner. So just like you might thank your partner a week later for, hey, you were an amazing teammate to me last week.

You were so supportive. I felt so connected to you. You know, same thing. You can talk about sex that you had previously. Right. So post-gaming then similar to what we were talking about before about sharing a past experience with the same partner that, you know, was really enjoyable. I would imagine a guardrail there also is this is not sort of like a checklist of like, this went right, this went wrong. Exactly. This is like, again, we're sort of like, we're focusing more on the positive things,

the things that like we're pleasurable. Yeah. So if you've seen post-game wrap-ups of sporting games, you know that they do the good, the bad, the ugly. So there is no equivalent here of like Jones blew the clutch play in the final seconds of the game. You're using the post-game just to talk about the positive stuff so that we build up that foundation. And later in sex talks is when we get into sharing feedback with your partner and making requests or asking for different things. But for now, all we're doing is positive only. Right. And so the second conversation you offer up is around connection. And by the way, before we even dive into this, throughout each of these five conversations in the book,

you just have like a mountain of prompts. And so nobody gets left hanging here. Like you literally like, here's the thing to do. Here's what to ask. Just really great guidance. So the second conversation is around the notion of connection. And I would imagine a lot of people, well, they kind of hear the word connection. They're like, well, I know what that means.

But do they really? So what do you mean when we're talking about a conversation around connection here? because most of us have this tendency to compartmentalize sex. We think of it as, oh, well, that's just that thing that happens in the bedroom with the doors closed at the end of the night with the lights off. And the reality is that we can't compartmentalize our sex life. The way that we interact with each other throughout the day affects our desire to be intimate with each other, our openness to being intimate with each other. And so I thought it was important to start there. A lot of couples will tell me, you know, it feels like we get into bed at the end of the night and I look over and it's like, who is this person crawling into bed with me? And that's not a great circumstance for feeling a lot of desire and wanting to have this

wild, crazy, intimate sex. So we need to work on that level of connection that we feel to each other all throughout the day. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting if you look at it as these are all different elements of an unending fluid conversation, whether it's sex itself, whether it's the conversations around it, whether it's like the subtle nods or the bids that you notice for affection and attention. It sounds like what you're saying is it's all part of like one big soup of connection and it all matters. When you think about how to cultivate this, especially at a time where a lot of people feel disconnected from themselves, let alone from other people. One of the things that you invite people to explore is the notion of rituals, like literally building specific rituals around the idea of connection. Take me a bit

deeper into this. One of my favorite rituals with Xander is that we made this decision a couple of years ago to have a nightly makeout routine. We were realizing like, we're just not really making out with each other very often. Really, the only times that we make out is when we have sex. And so we wanted to do something just like special, a little ritual that we could have between the two of us. And so for me, a ritual is something that we do on a daily basis, or it could be a weekly basis for me. Daily is just an easier habit to build. But it's a little special moment that we can have with our partner. It's something that feels like a little secret inside joke between the two of us or just a secret,

you know, between the two of us. It's like shared language that we have almost. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons that we love getting into relationships is that it feels like something special and unique just between the two of us. And yet it's so easy. We were talking a lot about how easy it is to just fall into a routine. We can do that in our day-to-day lives too. A lot of people will say, we feel like we're just ships passing in the night or we're roommates rather than romantic partners. And so I think rituals are a nice way to create something that feels special and unique in your relationship. So the makeout routine, for example, we've been doing this for a few years now, and it's just something that we've

come to rely on. No matter how tough the day has been, no matter how tired we are, we know that we're going to have that little moment of connection at the end of the night. It's going to be this nice way to cap off our day. And it's something that we actually look forward to. Have you ever come to the end of the day where you're like, okay, it's time for the makeout sesh, but we're kind of in a thing with each other. There's an argument in the air or there's a strong disagreement that we haven't resolved yet. And yet it's that time where we're supposed to honor the ritual. How do you step into that? I am not a believer in the never go to bed angry advice. I think sometimes it is best to go to bed angry, to sleep on it, to wake up in the morning with different perspective, or at least just

feeling more well-rested. So if we are not feeling good about each other, if we're in a disagreement and an argument, we will just skip it. But if it's more of a subtle thing, like we're just feeling kind of disconnected or it just feels a little bit off between us, the ritual actually feels like an invitation for us to address it rather than ignore it. So before we did this, there would be plenty of times where we would go to bed just feeling that sense of unease, discomfort, like something doesn't feel great, but I just want to go to bed. It's not a big deal. Whatever. We'll just do it. But now the ritual forces us to say, hey, what's going on? Let's just chat about it for a second. And oftentimes,

if it's one of those nuanced moments like that, it can be literally as simple as, today I felt a little bit off, didn't it? Yeah. I felt a little bit off too. Okay. Let's, let's try to be more connected tomorrow. So this one particular ritual for you also, you've gone deeper into this and shared that because a lot of people would hear this ritual and they'd be like, Oh, but that leads to dot, dot, dot. And there's a sort of like a phenomenon that you've coined around this, the bristle reaction. Take me there. The bristle reaction is the name that I came up with for the experience that you can have when your partner comes up to give you a hug, to touch you, give you a kiss, and you feel your body bristle. So another great way of explaining it is if you've

ever had a stranger get a little too close to you, you feel them invading your personal space and there's a sense of your walls going up. You just feel your body reacting to it. And yet the bristle reaction is happening with your partner, presumably the person that you love and trust the most in this world. Now, a lot of people, women in particular, but it can happen for people of all genders, a lot of people experience this reaction and they feel like something is horribly wrong with them, something's wrong with the relationship. But I like to share that it's a very normal, common reaction. It happens in even the most loving and trusting of relationships.

And it boils down to a couple of key dynamics. One is what I've started talking about a little bit with the make-out routine is that we stop initiating sex so clearly and directly in long-term relationships. And we often initiate by trying a little bit of physical contact and then trying to let it linger, extend it a little bit. And so a lot of us have learned to become very on guard to our partner's touch. And this can happen, especially if we're not having a lot of touch or kiss or physical connection throughout the day. You become even more hyper attuned to your partner's touch because you have the sense that, well, they only really touch me when they want

something. So this can be a very challenging dynamic for couples in the moment. But the good news is that it's something that we can address and resolve. And the ways of doing it are going to be really beneficial for your relationship too. Yeah. I think just even being aware of like, oh, there's this phenomenon that's happening right now. Let's talk about this, deconstruct it a little bit and find our way through it. That alone, I think it is, is just huge. The third conversation that you offer up as being really important is around desire. And it feels like this is the conversation that so many center as sort of like a, a crux point of dysfunction, like unmatched desire or different ways or pathways to desire. Talk to me more about this one.

Desire is all about what do we need in the moment to feel excited, open, interested in being intimate with each other. And you're exactly right. This is the number one complaint that I hear. It's either I feel like I have no sex drive, very low sex drive, or it feels like my partner and I are just wildly mismatched. We're on completely different pages, then this can feel like one of the most perplexing issues for relationships. What happened to that desire? So I do like to start by normalizing everyone in long-term relationships will experience waning of their desire. It's normal. It's common. It's perfectly okay. So I always like to start with the normalization. But a lot of this is being able to understand how our desire really works. So this is where the conversation about responsive versus spontaneous

sex drive can happen. And this is also where I get into another model that I created of the initiation styles, understanding what is it that I like from my partner? How do I like sex to be initiated? And it's very similar to the love languages. If you don't understand your type or your partner's type, you're probably going to be using different types with each other and really missing each other. A key example is one of the classic initiations is like pushing your partner up against the wall and kissing them passionately. For some people, that might sound incredibly sexy. For other people, that could sound downright unsafe. So it's all about understanding like,

what is it that I'm actually looking for from my partner? What is it that I need in those moments? Desire, I also wonder if you see that this is one of those powerful should domains. My desire, quote, should be at this level, or my partner's desire should be at this level. And if it's not, there's something wrong with us, or there's something wrong with them, or there's something wrong with me that has to be fixed. Yes. And I would imagine there are scenarios where there are things to really think about. Is there something physiological or psychological that's actually affecting desire? But also, as you described, things, it's complicated. There are a lot of dynamics that can affect desire,

but a lot of us don't recognize that. We think that desire should just be innate. It should just happen. We shouldn't have to put any sort of effort into it, but there are just countless things that can affect our interest in sex. And they can be all sorts of different things. It could be medical conditions, medications that we're taking, the shame and embarrassment that we feel around sex. It can be relationship dynamics. Are we feeling close to each other or not? Are we in an argument? Has there been infidelity? So there are just countless numbers of dynamics that can get into play. And so I say that not to make people feel heavy or burdened, like, oh my God, there's so much that I have to sort through. But just to

recognize it's okay if your desire isn't what you wish it to be or you feel like it should be because there are so many different things that might be affecting it. And fortunately, there are a lot of different ways to address that as well. And I think there's a really interesting invitation here. If desire is truly just falls out of the sky and falls into our laps and we never have to work on it. There's never a possibility for us to actually explore our sexuality and explore, well, what is it that actually interests me and excites me? And what kind of energy do I like my partner to approach me with? And what kind of energy do I like to feel? So I know that it can feel frustrating sometimes, but if we look at desire as the thing that we can cultivate, that we can create, that we can work on, like there are actually some beautiful opportunities for growth within that.

Yeah, I love that. You offer up the notion of creating a, what you call a sex menu. Yes. Which I love the idea. It's sort of like, you sort of like appetizer, entree, dessert. And also, as I'm seeing it, I'm like, what's kind of cool about that also is that if you go to your favorite restaurant, the menu changes. So this is like, it's like a dynamic thing that you don't just lock yourself into at once, but it's like you allow it to sort of evolve over time.

Absolutely. Yeah. Sex menus is probably one of my top three exercises in the entire book. I just think it's so fun and playful. And I started with this question of, you know, it's kind of funny that we think of initiation just as this question of, you know, do you want to have sex? Okay. But what does that mean? There are so many different ways that we could have sex, so many different activities that we could do, orders of activities, kinds of energy that we could bring into it. And so this idea of creating those different options, like not only does it force us to think about, well, what is it that good sex means to me? What are some ways that I want to have good sex? But it brings the element of play back into it too. We've actually been getting pictures from readers of their sex menus.

Some people have gotten super creative with this. We've had laminated ones. People have actually put it into an old school restaurant menu booklet and stuff like that. So couples are having a lot of fun with this exercise, which I think is so delightful. Yeah, I love that. The fourth conversation you talk about is conversation around pleasure. And pleasure is one of these things where people have a lot of morality issues with it. Because it's like, am I supposed to feel that? Is it okay to feel that? Is it actually bad for me to feel these different things, especially in the context of being with another person? Tell me more about how the conversation around pleasure unfolds. This conversation is all about understanding

what we need to feel good and to have an enjoyable and satisfying experience. And I purposely put this conversation next to the conversation about desire because that is one of the most important relationships. And it's one that we really don't even recognize for a lot of people. One of the top three things that causes low desire is low enjoyment of sex. So if you really think about it, like if the sex that you're having, if it doesn't feel pleasurable, if you're so stuck in all these beliefs about I'm not allowed to have pleasure, pleasure is bad to feel. If you feel like you're doing it more for your partner than for yourself, like having obligation sex, if it's just not enjoyable, why would you crave it? It wouldn't make any sense to crave it. You never wonder, why do I never crave overly steamed mushy broccoli? Nobody ever wonders that. It's not

enjoyable, right? But we don't judge ourselves for that either. Like what's wrong with me that I never want overly steamed mushy broccoli. So sex is the same way. And if we're not experiencing enjoyment out of it, it doesn't make any sense for us to crave it. Yeah. So, I mean, it makes sense to really explore for ourselves, like what actually genuinely gives us pleasure. This is where we kind of circle back to what you shared earlier in our conversation also around, okay, so maybe there is a time and a place and a way to give feedback during the actual act of sex because maybe that helps you and your partner home in on what actually is pleasure and what is getting me closer to that experience of pleasure or what's taking me farther away from it. Yeah. Pleasure can feel like yet another unknown. A lot of people, if you ask them like, what brings you pleasure? There might be a couple of immediate or obvious answers that come to mind, but for most people, it feels like a very difficult question to answer. So I wanted to get very practical. I mean, I'm just, I'm all about being practical here and like helping people

find ways to discover these types of things. When it comes to feedback, a lot of us get very much in our heads and we picture having to tell our partner, you are terrible at sex and you need to get better. But I also don't know how you can get better, but just get better somehow, please. Obviously, if that's the way that we share feedback with our partner, that's going to be a disastrous experience. That'll be in book two, the disastrous sex conversations. But fortunately, that's not the only way to give feedback. It's not the recommended way to give feedback. So one of the exercises that I share in that chapter is what I call it the eye exam test, is having our partner stimulate us in two different ways. And this can be very simple. Maybe it's, I want you to

massage my shoulders, and then I want you to scratch the nape of my neck. So when we are asked the question, what brings you pleasure or what do you want? Most of us will freeze up. But if we have two options in front of us, it's a much easier decision. Yeah. Do I like this better or do I like that better? So this test you can practice with non-sexual touch, like the massage versus the head scratch example that I just gave, but you can also use it with more sexual experiences as well. Like, do you like this kind of kiss better or this kind of kiss better? Do you like it when I use this amount of pressure or this amount of pressure? So I think it's a really beneficial exercise because it helps you just hone

in on the moment and the experience of sensation in your body. And for most of us, we just don't have very much practice at doing that. We don't really pay attention to like, what does it actually feel like in my body when I'm being physical with my partner? Yeah. I mean, to that end, if we're talking about what does it feel like in my body when I'm being physical with my partner? Yeah. I mean, to that end, if we're talking about what does it feel like in my body when I'm being physical with my partner, it seems like you understanding just on your own. There's a certain amount of experiments or like play dates that you can run with your partner, but there may be a whole lot more that you can also add to that on your own. And again, this is where we get into one of those areas where people feel a certain sense of shame or awkwardness or like,

am I supposed to be doing this or touching myself this way or trying these different things? But if it's in the name of really understanding what makes me feel good, because I would imagine you'll be able to communicate that to a partner much more easily if you already really understand yourself. Absolutely. I think exploring our own bodies is one of the most beautiful experiences that we can have. I mean, it's our body. This is the shell that we live in for our entire lives. Why shouldn't we explore what brings us pleasure? And I think learning how to bring yourself pleasure is one of the most empowering and exciting experiences you can have. So if you're listening to this and just starting to sweat already, like, I don't know if I can go there, you can practice this with non-sexual touch on yourself as well. forearm and try scratching it and then try just lightly running a finger across it. Which of those two sensations do you like best? Like go back and forth and compare those two. And doing something like this is also a great exercise that you can do at any random point throughout the day when

you feel like you're up in your head, it brings you back into your body too. So if you're somebody who feels like my brain is just always going, I'm never present in the moment, I'm never in tune with my body, just set a little timer for yourself. Do this at lunchtime or do this right after you brush your teeth, kind of habit stack it with something else, but take a moment to just tune in with your own body. Yeah. And that really brings us pretty seamlessly into the fifth conversation around exploration. This notion that it's almost like a journey. You're going on an adventure that's going to last a really long time, hopefully.

There's always something new to explore. So in this chapter, I talk about the advice of keeping it spicy. We've all heard this, right? It's in every magazine, every article online, but it really actually is good advice. Research has shown that our brains love novelty. We love doing new things. And when we do new things with our partner inside or outside of the bedroom, it just allows us to see them in a fresh light. It brings back that excitement, that energy of the early stage of the relationship. Now, the problem with trying new things is that a lot of people go to very extreme places in their head and they think it means they have to do all these wildly kinky things, stuff that is so beyond

their comfort zone. And you absolutely can do that, but it's not the only way to explore in the bedroom. So for anybody who's feeling nervous or embarrassed, a great starting point is actually to bring back some of the things that you used to do during sex that maybe you haven't done in a while. So most couples in long-term relationships, the longer that we're together, the more narrow our repertoire becomes. And it gets to the point where most couples, they can script out like, this is what sex looks like between the two of us. This is 99% of the time it unfolds in exactly this way. So think about those earlier stages of the relationship. Was it that you took more time with each other? Was it that there were different acts that you used to do that you haven't really done in a while? Maybe you were trying out different positions or

you had sex in different locations. So that can be a great first step is just bring back the things you've already done, but have been neglecting. Yeah. I love that. It is counterintuitive, right? Because you think, well, the longer we're together, the safer, the more comfortable we feel, the more we trust each other, the more open and vulnerable we'll get. And yet what you're sharing is it's actually kind of the exact opposite. The less creative, the less open that it's just sort of like you fall into a rhythm that, you know, I guess you have to be really intentional about saying, well, maybe we should try breaking out of that rhythm and see what it feels like. Those five conversations, super powerful. So many really cool tools.

One of the things that you share a bit later is we start to wrap a little bit. And a lot of this really conversation is around like, what happens when you make sex a priority in your relationship, when you elevate it to something beyond, you know, just that thing that we do or that thing that we're supposed to do, because that's what quote, healthy, functional, long-term relationships have in it. And then one of the simple ideas that you offer is the notion of scheduling sex, which I imagine people react really strongly with on both sides. Yeah, mostly it's negative. People really hate the idea of scheduling sex. It makes them feel like the relationship is dead. The spark is gone. You're having to schedule it the way that you

schedule dentist appointments. It just feels boring. So I like to turn around and ask people, okay, well, tell me about when you first started dating your partner and you wanted to spend time together. What did you do? You scheduled dates with them, right? You put stuff in the calendar, you put time in the calendar, and you didn't judge that. The way that you viewed it was, you know, I'm a person who has a full life. I do things during the day. This person that I'm dating has a full life. They do things. So if we want to spend time together, we need to be intentional and make that happen. And once you started being intimate with each other, you were basically scheduling sex. You knew we're having date night. We're pretty much going to

have sex. So you've been scheduling sex already. It's just that our attitude about it changes as we get longer into the relationship. So the way that I look at sex is just in a very practical way. Like we are busy. We have full lives. And most of us know if we don't put something in our calendar, if we're not intentional about carving out time, that time will get filled by other things. It always does. And so for me, scheduling sex is just a way to show that you prioritize each other. You prioritize intimacy. You're willing to carve out that time. So if you're still feeling resistant, a very practical way to change this is don't use the phrase scheduling sex. So if you're still feeling resistant, a very practical way to change this is don't use the phrase scheduling sex. Just say you're planning for it, or you're having a date

night, or maybe there's some cute inside joke that you guys used to call your date nights in the past. So think of it as just we're creating the possibility for intimacy, not that we're signing a contract that we pledge that we will have intercourse at 7 p.m. on Tuesdays. That shift in just language or the way you frame it, I would imagine for a lot of people, it's like, oh yeah, I could do that. That feels completely on the right track for me. It feels like it's leaving some of the fluidity to it rather than making it like another appointment or meeting in my calendar. But coming full circle, you know, when you zoom the lens out here, this is effectively like most of your adult life's work is working with couples on the level of

reconnecting them or helping them reconnect with a sense of sexuality and intimacy, both individually and as partners. Why do you care so much about this? I have never been asked that question. I honestly don't know. I guess the right answer is just that I believe so much in love and I believe so much in intimacy. I know what it feels like to have that kind of connection. I know how special it feels, how magical it feels. I know the impact that it can have on my own life and the way that it just brings so much more energy and vitality and excitement to day-to-day life. And I want couples to get to experience that.

I think that, like I was saying earlier, we have this tendency to compartmentalize sex, but we've also, most of us have had the experience that when we're in a good place sexually in our relationship, it feels like everything else in the relationship is also in a good place. And for me, it just keeps coming back to love. I want to bring more love into the world. I want to help people experience deeper, more profound love. And it's hard to answer this question because it's like, I can't imagine not having this passion and not feeling so strongly as I do. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle and have a conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project,

if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Love again, love comes up for me. It's just, it's so easy for us to get swept up in day-to-day responsibilities and chores and tasks and all of that. But just coming back to love, experiencing love with ourselves and with our partners, there's just no greater joy in life than that for me. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Eli Finkel about the self-actualized marriage.

You'll find a link to Eli's episode in the show notes. Good Life Project is a part of the ACAST Creator Network. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here,

would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action,

that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.