Good Life Project - How To Tell A Captivating Story | Catherine Burns

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

Did you ever wish you could be that person who captivated a room, a gathering, an audience, a date with a story that cast a spell, moved them deeply, then left you both more connected and alive? Transformed even? Yeah, you’re not alone. We all live lives filled with stories worth telling, but so often we don’t realize it. And few of us know “how” to tell those stories in a way that brings others in close, then leaves them changed. Most just think it’s a God-given ability. But, what if it wasn’t? What if it was a skill anyone - including you - could learn? Would you want that? My guest today, Catherine Burns, believes it is. And, if there’s anyone I’d believe, it’s her. Catherine is the long-time Artistic Director at The Moth, the global phenomenon dedicated to the art and craft of storytelling.In our conversation today, you'll hear us dive into many of the ideas, tips, and strategies from her newest book, How to Tell a Story: The Essential Guide to Memorable Storytelling from The Moth, which she co-wrote with fellow The Moth directors, Meg Bowles and Jenifer Hixson. If you've ever wondered why we care so much about stories in the first place or what elements make for a good story, you're in for a treat in this episode because Catherine and I dive deeper into the art of storytelling and what it takes for anyone, and we mean anyone, to craft a story worth listening to. You can find Catherine at: Website | The Moth Instagram | TwitterIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Zoe Chance about language, stories, and influence.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We see also how people have stories bottled up inside of them all their life and the true healing that can come when people are willing to share their stories, when they realize that their stories are legitimate. So many people that we meet think they have no story to tell. And then as they slowly realize that not only do they, but they have a story that lots of people want to hear and can relate to and can be helped by. We just see how it lights people up. It's a really gorgeous thing to witness. So did you ever wish you could be that person who captivated a room, a gathering, an audience, a date with a story that cast a spell, that moved

them deeply, then left you both more connected and alive, transformed even. Well, yeah, you're not alone there. We all live lives filled with stories worth telling, but so often we don't realize it. And few of us know how to tell those stories in a way that brings others in close, then leaves them changed. Most just think it's some sort of God-given ability, but what if it wasn't? What if it was a skill that anyone, including you, could learn? Would you want that? Well, my guest today, Katherine Burns, believes it is. And if there's anyone I believe, it's her. Katherine is a long time artistic director at The Moth, at the global phenomenon dedicated to the art and craft of

storytelling. She's also a producer of The Moth Radio Hour, director of the solo shows The Gates and Helen and Edgar, and the editor of best-selling and critically acclaimed books, The Moth 52 Stories, All These Wonders, and Occasional Magic. And over nearly 20 years, she's shepherded countless people, some famous, some next-door neighbors, through the process of finding and telling captivating stories. In our conversation today, you'll hear us dive into many of the ideas and tips and strategies from her newest book, How to Tell a Story, which she co-wrote with fellow directors of The Moth, Meg Bowles and Jennifer Hickson. If you've ever wondered why we care so much about stories in the first place or what elements make for a good story,

you're in for a real treat in this conversation because Catherine and I dive deep into the art and craft of storytelling and what it takes for anyone, and we mean anyone, to craft a story worth listening to. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. we're talking about story today book is fantastic i stopped dog-earing the book about two-thirds of the way through because i realized i was dog-earing every page. Thank you so much. That means so much to me. There's something about the physical book also that's just so fantastic. It's so much harder to dog-ear digital pages. It doesn't feel the same even when you highlight. It's very true. It seems like it'll delete your highlights and stuff, so it makes me nervous.

I'm someone who writes in books. You can't let me borrow a book because I will sort of destroy it in my own way. So yeah. So I, I'm a big like marker. Cause then I reread books by rereading my highlighted parts and stuff. So. Yeah, totally get that a hundred percent. I have this, uh, I was going to say lifelong fascination with story and the craft and art of storytelling to the extent that there's even science around it now, which apparently there is. I mean, legit brain studies on what the story does to the brain. I had this interesting opportunity. I don't want to say maybe it was a decade ago to sit down and trade conversations about stories with Robert McKee, who's this legendary,

of course, as you know, guy who's been leading these story seminars for decades now, largely for Hollywood types for movies and film and TV. And we were going back and forth. He interviewed me about sort of like what it was like in the online world. I was talking to him about the structure of it. And there was this line, and I'm not going to say it exactly the way that he said it, but he basically said, he said, a great story is like a monster that's in your head. And the only thing that's worse than figuring out how to tell it is keeping it inside. Ooh, I love that. And I was like, you just literally summed up so much of my process. Do you feel that same thing? Yeah, definitely. I mean,

we see also how people have stories bottled up inside of them all their life. And that just the total, not to immediately go and sound like therapy, but just like the true healing that can come when people are willing to share their stories, when they realize that their stories are legitimate, like so many people that we meet think they have no story to tell. And then as they slowly realize that not only do they, but they have a story that lots of people want to hear and can relate to and can be helped by, we just see how it lights people up. I mean, it's a really gorgeous thing to witness. Yeah. And I guess that gets maybe my first curiosity, which is why do we tell stories in the first

place? I mean, there's so many different ways to convey emotion, information, all this different stuff. Like why stories? Why have they carried on literally since as far back as we can remember? What is the value of a story just really in human relation? Storytelling is probably the oldest art form. And we will never know if they started scribbling on cave walls first or grunting in some way that they could

communicate. But it definitely goes back and it was a way, it was life-saving, right? A way to convey information that something was poisonous or that there was danger or there was a plate, you know, there was some sort of a safety, you know, so it really was a life giving skill. Stories also connect us. I mean, to sit with another person and tell a story, particularly a story, you know, we always love stories in which where somebody is willing to tell on themselves a little bit. Those tend to be more relatable than the stories where you're the hero of the day. But there's just something so beautiful about that. And I think that human beings probably since the dawn of time needed it. It makes you feel less alone in the world. I mean, so many times we'll

see that somebody will tell a very specific story at the moth. And then afterwards, 10 people in the audience will come up to them and say, oh my goodness, I thought that it was only me or, you know, my uncle actually, we had a family secret and blah, blah, blah, blah. And so it's funny how sometimes we carry stories around in our head that we're ashamed of, but it doesn't have to be something big. Like a recent example for me was Tara Clancy, who was one of our wonderful hosts, was telling a story on stage at a show she hosted. And she's just a very competent person. I adore her. And her story was about her son's teacher sending home a note saying, can you please clean out your son's backpack? And it was like horrified, you know, like seven stale sandwiches, a candy bar with no wrap,

like just horrible gross. And I was like, oh my God, because just two days before I had gotten that note about my then 10 year old. And I was just like, all the self-talk, you know, what's wrong with you? You know, you're a terrible mother. I mean, I really gave myself a beat down over this note. I felt ashamed to see the teacher. And then Tara turns into this hilarious story. Everyone's laughing. I'm like, oh my God, it's no big deal. It happens to everybody. That's a silly example, but I think that's a really important thing that stories do for each other is you realize that there's very probably few thoughts or things that have happened to you, especially things that you

might feel a little bit bad about that hasn't actually happened to someone else, even if you think that you're alone in it. Yeah. I love that. And I often wonder whether that part of like the value of stories gets discounted because so many times you hear it and you're like, well, a story is a great way to convey an information or an insight, you know, but instead of like using slides or data points or research, tell it in the form of a story and then people will get it. They'll remember it. And I so often hear story couched as this, it's a more effective mechanism to get your point across. And granted, it probably is. Right. If you're a speaker, if you're in a boardroom, whatever it is, but the point you're making about it also just connecting us and the simple fact of letting you

know that you're not alone is so powerful because you could look at somebody else and say, Hey, you're not alone. Yeah. But sharing a story is just going to completely change the nature of like how that lands with somebody. Exactly. I mean, it's a gift to get to see it happen again and again. It's one of the things that keeps me going. Yeah. I wonder also, cause you have been like in this world for so long and seen so many different tellers and so many different audiences too. When you see that happen with somebody where somebody gets up and takes the mic and says, I'm going to tell the story.

And then they tell the story. That person is maybe perceived as being very different than a lot of other people, maybe than like a lot of other people in the audience. And all of a sudden, through the story, there's a bridge that gets made. Now, if you walked by this person in the street or if you saw them wherever, they would seem very different from you in a lot of ways. But somehow, all of a sudden, you're all in there together. You are them and they are you. Is that something that you tend to see? Absolutely. Yeah. Someone once described the moth as you feel like everyone in the audience, that they're all holding hands under

the table, that that is so true. And one of the things that we witness is in shows, usually on a main stage show, we try to pick people from really different backgrounds with really different stories to kind of balance. And it's usually five tellers. And we have just seen people come into it as strangers and then truly build friendships. A fun example is there was a show a few years ago where we actually had a guard from Guantanamo Bay. We write about this in the book, but he got a little bit nervous on stage at rehearsal and actually was having trouble getting through his story. And, you know,

it was just a tough story to tell. And he, for him, you know, emotional, understandably, you could probably imagine. And the actress Kathleen Turner was also telling a story. And so she's sitting there looking at him and we all really want to support him and help him, you know, his wonderful director, my coauthor, Meg. But all of a sudden Kathleen Turner jumps up and she's like, she goes, listen, you just got to shake it out, shake it out. And so he stood up, we all stood up and we all shook it out. Everybody in the rehearsal space sat down and he was able to tell his story.

And there was just something so gorgeous about that. And, you know, they walked out together and then after the show, they ended up going out. She took him out to dinner with all of her friends. And we were just like, okay, Kathleen Turner and our lovely Guantanamo Bay guard have gone to dinner, drop mic, our work is done. And the world will be good. Yeah. That's amazing. Especially now, right? At a time where we seem to walk around and just identify how people are different from us and how we're not the same and we don't believe the same and we don't want the same. And it's like, if you can have that one moment where you realize, no, actually there's something deeper that we all yearn for, that we've all experienced that does tie us together.

It just seems like it's an important time to be centering experiences that would do that. Yeah. Amen. As someone who lives in New York City and grew up in rural Alabama, many amens to that. Let's drop a little bit into actually the art, the craft, the structure of story. Because I think a lot of people listening to this and probably have a lot of questions that I had, many of which you answer in your book, by the way, which is, I was literally like, I've been looking for these answers for a really long time. And I've studied a lot of story and storytelling. So I thought we'd maybe float some of those and explore them a bit because I know they're going to be on the minds of folks who are listening. One of the big ones, I think for me,

and I'll give a little context also. So I have been, I've been speaking for many years, you know, and one of the things that you learn in the early days of speaking, whether it's, you know, like short form or, you know, like filling an hour or 90 minutes, is you got to have stories. And then the question becomes, so how do you discover your stories and how do you know what's worth telling? Walk me through some of this process a bit, because I think this is, it's such a big stumbling point, especially for so many people who say, I don't really have stories, especially ones that are worth telling. Yeah. In our experience, everyone does. I would say, so if I get on the phone with somebody who we think will be a good storyteller,

but we don't know what story they're going to tell. One of the first things I'll say to them is, so tell me what stories your friends ask you to tell to their friends when they're meeting you. Because what happens is like everyone has a few like that. Or I'll say, what is the story that when you have a new boyfriend or girlfriend or you meet someone who is going to become a new friend, what are the stories that you can't wait to tell them? Because usually everyone just has a couple. And like these stories might be a little bit anecdotal. Like they might just be something like a little bit silly or fun or like a crazy thing that happened. But I have found again and again, that if you really dig into them with a person, you'll discover that there's something a little bit deeper there. And that there's a reason

why these are the stories that you as a person tell over and over. Another way to think about it are what are the things in your life that have happened that have changed your perspective in some way? So either you changed your mind or something that where as a result of that thing happening, you just maybe see the world a little bit differently. Because usually those also are meaningful for other people. You know, one of the things we say at the moth is who are you at the beginning of your story and who are you at the end of your story? And we sometimes joke, you will say, and why do we care? And I'm kidding, but what I really mean when I say that is why do you care? Because if you can convey to us why you care enough to be telling the story, then 99% of the time, anyone listening

will care too. So that's really important. So those are like the filters I sometimes put through. You know, I think like in my own life, I have like a handful of stories that I always end up telling that actually, you know, not, I don't always tell them this way if I'm just like talking to somebody, you know, at a party. But a story that comes up for me a lot is how at my wedding rehearsal dinner, they actually double booked us with someone else's actual wedding and chaos ensued.

But actually, like if I were to tell that on stage, which I never have, but if I ever did, I would probably build out something about how different my husband's family and my family are and how nervous we were about all of them coming together. And then as a result of this, of the total chaos that happened as a result of this, the other groom got very upset and actually started throwing furniture. It was quite the memorable meal. It actually bonded the two families. And the next night at the wedding, people were just like, ah, because they had to have this shared experience, a shared story, even if you will.

And so really, you could turn that into a story about how you're picturing the worst thing that could possibly happen. And then something even worse than you're imagining does happen. But actually, it's the very thing that brings everyone together and makes you, is what should you want it, which is like for all the families to get along and have fun together, you know? So that's just like, I use that example sometimes because that's one of my handful of like little stories that I ended up telling again and again in my life. And, but you can also see how just the basic facts of it could be what we would sort of think of as like a bar story, but you could pretty easily build it out in a number of ways.

Yeah. I love that. And also it reinforces what you shared earlier, which is that this notion that it doesn't have to be heroic, that it doesn't have to be this big epic thing where you're at the center and you save the day and everything works out great. It's almost like our shared catastrophes, big and small, are the things that often make for the best stories where we sort of like our vulnerable moments where everything falls apart and it turns into something where you can all laugh at. It's funny, as you were just sharing that, I had this immediate flashback. For five years, my wife and I ran an adult summer camp where we took over a kid's sleepaway camp for four days at the end of the summer. And the very first year that we did it, we did it about a month

too late. And these are kids' bunks. The wind is whistling through them. There's no insulation. And it was in the 50s during the day and the 30s at night. And people got on planes, trains, and automobiles, 400 of them from around the world. And we were literally like sending vans over to the local Walmart to buy every blanket, every set of gloves, every set of socks, every umbrella because it was torrential rain also. But the people who came back year after year, the story they told to the newbies was surviving that first year. It wasn't like all the magical things that happened. Those were kind of like, you know, accepted, but it was like, oh, you should have been here the first year. Yeah. The very first night when we were popsicles.

Right. And that was like similar to the one that you were telling about, like, you know, the rehearsal dinner. It's like, it's amazing how much people I think bond over stories around commiseration. I think that's very true. Stories around vulnerability, right? I think, bond over stories around commiseration. I think that's very true. Stories around vulnerability, right? I mean, vulnerability to me feels like maybe the single most powerful thing that you could bring into a story. What's your take on that? Absolutely. I literally think that the number one quality of all great storytellers is their willingness

to be vulnerable and their willingness to tell on themselves and make themselves maybe the butt of the joke or just talk about something that they struggled with. Another thing that like we talk about is like, like a decision you had to make is another way to like mine for stories. If you think about the big decisions in your life, often there are stories around them, but be willing to admit you didn't know what to do, you know, and like to tell it, bring us into your struggle of, of what you wanted to do. I always say like our missteps make us interesting. Our struggles are what make us interesting. And that willingness to really get up and, you know, like Tara admit that your kid had seven half eaten sandwiches in their back, you know, or whatever

it is, you know, that is definitely something that, you know, connects us to each other. Here's my question around that. Totally get that and agree with it in the context of somebody is at a moth, taking the mic at around a dinner table, just really enjoying it. You also have ended up doing workshops and programming for companies, for leaders within organizations. I'm so curious about this. How do you approach

somebody who's in a leadership position in an organization who has probably been told either directly or indirectly or both many times over a period of years, don't go there. Don't go there. And yet you know in your heart, that's the answer. That's got to be an interesting conversation. It definitely is. I mean, it's one of the trickiest things. For years and years, we did annual shows for the New Yorker Festival. And we would have five New Yorker writers or cartoonists or whatever telling stories. And we always said that this was the tallest order show we did of the year because we're asking everybody to come and tell a story about how they messed up in front of their

boss, David Remnick, you know? And so eventually we got their boss to tell us such a story himself, but it was really tricky. And yet if you weren't willing to do it, you know, we would see again and again that the storytellers who weren't willing to do it were the few who would fall flat. So I think it is tricky. You know, we have Mothworks, which my co-author Kate runs. And this is one of the biggest challenges they face when they go in, you know, and do workshops with groups because you're essentially trying to talk to your co-workers about something that happened to you, you know, potentially that could be quite personal. But we've just really seen how, again, if we can get people

to do it, and sometimes I think they get people to do it by just showing examples of other people and other companies doing it and like showing clips and things like that. But, you know, just how really connected you can feel. Like we did a Mothworks thing for People Magazine Salesforce one time. This is a very long time ago, like maybe 2005. And I remember we came in and it was like sort of a strange environment. We were in some high rise in Midtown. Somebody at the very end of it told a story about the birth of his child, which had been very harrowing. And all of a sudden, the entire tone of the room changed. People were crying. And so like the people who walked in were maybe a little bit stiff in all

of their suits, you know, sitting and looking out over, you know, Avenue of the Americas, a completely different group of people left the room afterwards because it was just so they were all connected through their coworker who, you know, none of them had ever heard that story before. Yeah. I mean, it's so powerful to me. I think there tends to be a really us versus them divide within organization, especially now, right? It's like, you know, like people are running out the door. They're, they're looking at management or leadership as sort of like the oppressors in the organization are trying to get more and more and more and more and more. And meanwhile, leaders are actually human beings and they're and they've got pressure coming down on

them. And they may be doing or being asked to do things they know is kind of brutal and they don't want to do too, but it's sort of like, they're doing this really hard dance as human beings. They're suffering mightily. And it's almost like if you can tell a story that reveals your own humanity and let those who you're leading or managing see that you're a human being who struggles and has struggled too, maybe that becomes a bridge in this moment where people are like, oh, actually, one of the things I really just want to know is that I'm working for a human being and not a machine, and that might be enough.

And yet still, it's so hard to get people to go there. It's so true. It really can be so hard. I mean, I feel so lucky to work at a place where we're allowed to be ourselves and allowed to be human. I think it would be really hard to go back having had this for so long. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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You know what's the difference between me and you? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. One of the other things that I know you talk and write about is this notion of agency within the story. Tell me more about this because I think this is kind of fascinating. It's funny.

I think that people sometimes, when they think of stories of their own life, they can see things like where they maybe feel a little bit like a victim or they're wronged in some way. We all have these stories, I think most of us, of victimhood in some way at some time. But what happens when people start to tell a story about it is you'll realize often that you have much more control of what happened than you think. And that, well, something on the outside might've happened that you have much more control of what happened than you think. And that, well, something on the outside might've happened that you had no control over your reaction to it. And also how you choose to see it as far as like a story of your life, that you are completely in control of that. And I find that when people see that it can be very liberating for them because then it's like, well, what else do I have agency over? What in my current life that I'm struggling with could I look at differently?

And what are the things that I can control? Because if you actually try to control the things that you legitimately can, then often things get better or the things that you generally can't control, you can let go of a little bit. I'm sorry if that sounds a little self-helpy. No, but I think it's also just, it's true. So agency, vulnerability, shift in perspective, these are all really powerful things to have in a story. The other thing is this notion of stakes, you know, like skin in the game, like this. And you And you referenced it earlier, right? Because you're saying, I think what you said earlier in our conversation is it's got to matter to you. It can't just be like this thing, which seems to have a great punchline or set you up to it. There's something

about it where you have to have legitimate stakes. And then you make a distinction, which I thought was interesting, between internal stakes and external stakes. So talk me through this a little bit. Yeah. So internal stakes are more like things that you care about. And there are things that can go on in your own head versus external stakes are things that actually the entire world can see. And sometimes the most interesting stories have both. So an example of that would be Alan Rabinowitz is a storyteller I adore. He is somebody who, like if tigers and jaguars don't go extinct in our lifetime, it will be largely because of his work. Like he's someone who really helped raise awareness to how, you know, just like clearing forests and things were really destroying the lives of these big cats.

So he tells a story about having to go before the Brazilian parliament and he had to convince them to save all of this land to create kind of a jaguar corridor, I think he calls it. So that, because these big cats need a lot of land if they're to mate and to find other jaguars and to be healthy. And he had to convince, this is long before like ecotourism was a thing. He had to convince them to set aside all this land and also stop shooting them because they would come onto cattle ranches and they would be shot. So those are the external stakes, right? Save the jaguar, save the tigers. Like we can all agree those are pretty high stakes, but his internal stakes were, as a child, he had a debilitating stutter. It was so severe that he didn't actually speak a complete sentence to another human being until he was in his early 20s. females in this parliament and he has to speak and he knows if he stutters it'll really undermine his authority to them and he'll be feel embarrassed and you know we get a lot of his backstory who

alan was as a child and here he has to do this big thing and be the voice of the animals and so internal stakes like we just are suddenly feeling like the little boy Alan now as a grown man in front of parliament. So that's a story that truly has very high internal and external stakes. Do you have a sense for what, when you're telling a story, whether one matters more than the other, or whether it's really like an either or a yes and type of thing? It's funny, as you were sharing that story, I think this is the beauty of storytelling. I transferred into being a young lawyer in my 20s, standing on a Friday afternoon in front of a senior federal

trial judge in Buffalo, New York, holding onto a lectern, shaking violently, sweating violently, knowing that I had to argue a motion to try and stop wrongdoers from taking money from elderly people. And it's funny how I just transferred into, I was like, as you're telling the story, I'm like internal, external stakes. I'm arguing on other people to keep them safe. And I am utterly terrified and trying not to pee myself simultaneously and throw up all at once. To me, it's like the internal and the external has got to be maybe just the most powerful, if you can weave that in, because it feels like you transfer into that so powerfully and almost everyone's going to be able to in some way. I think that that's true. I think

that probably many of the greatest small stories of all time do have both. I would probably argue, I wonder what my fellow authors would say, but I would argue that the internal are more important. Because a way people go wrong is they'll try to tell stories that are about other people or about other things. At least for moth storytelling, joke that we'd like want people to be very self-absorbed. We want people to only tell stories of the moth that are about things that they have directly witnessed or that have some connection to them. Like the personal for us is so important. And a lot of people come to us and like they want to tell their grandfather's story. And many people have amazing stories of their grandparents and we want to hear them. You know, people live on through the stories we tell about them too. You know, often people want to tell stories. People live on through the stories we tell about them too.

Often people want to tell stories about people who have passed away, but ultimately those stories only really work and really connect with listeners in a deep way. You can in some ways connect us to why telling the story is important to you. Yeah, that makes so much sense. As you're sharing that, what occurs to me also, and this is a curiosity, so many people's stories I would imagine involve other people, other people that they care about in relationship with still, you know, like some may be estranged, but some people, and they want to stay in relationship with them. Dani Shapiro wrote this wonderful book about hourglass or about her 20 year marriage with her husband, Michael, who she's very much still in love with and married to and wants to be for the rest of their lives. And yet she had to figure out,

how do I tell the stories and be really, really open and honest? What's your take on this? Because I would imagine a lot of people are like, I have a great story, but it involves other people who are also part of it and they're alive and they're maybe worse. We have a good relationship now, but the story might challenge that or we don't, but I'd like to repair it. How do you navigate that? We navigate this all the time. It is one of the trickiest parts of our work. One of the things we always say is turning people's lives into art is messy and it's complicated. So we have across the spectrum, we've had people tell stories about someone that they love that they're in conflict with. We didn't have a podcast

and radio show originally. So people were just on stage telling the story for a limited audience. We were recording them, but that was it in the early days. And so all of a sudden we'll come back to somebody, you know, years later and say, Hey, we want to podcast your story. We want to put on the radio. And they'll be like, uh, actually my feelings about that completely changed. I can think of three different storytellers who are all men from a variety of walks of life who all told stories about their difficult relationship with their father, who then came back and didn't want it to be broadcast because they had since had a child of their own and repaired their relationship with their father. And so suddenly they didn't want the story out there. And we're actually very understanding about that. You know, even if they signed a

release, like we won't put the story out. We also have a policy that if you tell a story, and even if we spent thousands of dollars coming into a radio show and you suddenly come back and say, actually, can you take it down? We will immediately because our relationship with our storytellers is like one of the most important things that we have, you know, at the moth. And so we really value that. But it can be really tricky. Like people will tell a story. We've had a couple of times where someone told a story and the person who they're telling the story about will get in touch with us and say, hey, I'm uncomfortable with this. Will you take it down? And it really depends whether we do. Like in some cases, we're just like, we will decide that we really feel like it's the

teller's story to tell and it's okay but a couple of times like it seemed like there was legitimately like something that we felt a little off about and we quietly take the story down so it really depends and i think a lot of people feel conflicted about it when they go into it like an example he wouldn't mind me using this example is um actor, John Turturro. We were on the 10 year plan because he had come to the moth and I was like, you should really tell a story. And, you know, he was sort of like, yeah, maybe one day. And so finally I asked him for like the millionth time and he said, okay, I think I am finally ready to tell a story, but I'm a little bit nervous about it. So we had an agreement that we would just get on the phone.

I was like, you tell me the story. And at the end of it, or even if like next week, you have what you might call a vulnerability hangover, you know, where if you just feel like, oh, I wish I hadn't told that, then I will never tell another soul and that'll be the end of it. And so he did tell me the story,

but thank goodness for the world, I think. He was like, okay, that actually felt more okay than I thought it would. And he did go on to tell it to the moth that's been on the radio. But in the story, he kind of for the first time publicly talked about his brother who spent years and years in a mental, you know, because he struggled with mental illness. And, you know, this is like classic family secret, right? And so, but John coming forward, he's now apparently used this subject matter in his work and has written extensively about it. Like it really opened something up in him that wasn't open before, just because for years, I think he was afraid of what would happen if he talked about it. It is so interesting, right? Because I have to imagine a story that does not fold in any way, shape or form in relation to another being is not all that interesting as a story. Right.

You know, so it's like, there are always going to be these levels of like, okay, so like, where's the line where it's okay or where it's not okay, or where it's actually, it's no longer my story to tell. And if I only tell my part of it, does that kind of make it not worth sharing anymore? Exactly. I mean, we also, this is like a tricky stuff when people tell stories about their children. Adam Gopnik, who's a community time-off storyteller, he's a New Yorker writer, he's on our board. And he has this theory that right around age 12, children's stories become completely their own, and you can only tell them with their like complete permission. And having a

12 year old right now, I have to agree with that. Like it was just like in the last year where suddenly we have a rule that if something happens to him that I have to get his permission before I tell it to other people. I always like he approves any picture I put out on social media of him, but like before he just didn't care. And so that's one of the things that Adam says is like that your children's stories are your stories up until a point, but then they truly become their own. There might be some people who disagree with like the line. And I know I have friends who don't post anything about their children online because they feel like it'll live forever and it's up to the child.

I personally won't post anything embarrassing about my son. You know, like I never wrote about him, wrote about him having an accident or anything like that because I felt like it would be something that would live on that maybe when he was 12 or 13, he wouldn't want out there. Those stories that you're saving up to tell, that first love interest that he brings home to completely embarrass him, those will never be public. Those will be around a dinner table or something like that. Exactly. Exactly. Because I just feel like it's not... Anything that I feel like would ever embarrass him, I've tried really hard not to put out.

I try to just put stories out of cute things he said and cute things he did. Because ultimately, who knows how he's going to feel about it. I feel like so far, there's been nothing that's out there that he's been bothered by. But I would feel terrible if there was. So. Yeah, no, understandable. We've been talking a lot about choosing stories, what makes for a good story, right? Yeah. Love to spend a little bit of time on structure. You sort of like lay out these narrative stepping stones, scenes, summaries, and reflections. Yeah. Walk me through this framework a little bit, because I thought it was pretty fascinating and helpful in a lot of ways. So one of the things that will make a story fall flat is if the story has what we call scenes. So a scene is actually where you take us, literally paint a picture,

take us into the room, tell us what happened, as opposed to telling us about what happened. So a difference would be like, I have a story that I tell about accidentally driving one of my close friends car off a cliff from the passenger seat. That what I just said is sort of like a summary, you know, I just told you about it versus if I were to really tell the story, I would take you into the scene. So I'm sitting in the car, it's early one morning, I reach over to turn the keys because I'm going to listen to the radio. And all of a sudden, me and the car start lurching forward because the car was standard and it was left in first.

So that's like taking you into the scene. Like I'm re-remembering what happened. And then I'm telling you step by step, you know, the most, hopefully the more interesting things about it. And so often if a story isn't working that well, it's because somebody is like not actually taking you into the scene. They're just telling you about what they thought about what happened, but they're not truly taking you into the scene. And we find that most of the best stories have a little bit of both. It's like you want to identify what are the most important scenes in the story like what are the things that without taking us into that the listener won't be able to understand what was most important about this for you but then you can't have everything be a scene right because then that could get very long and very you know you

really want to choose your details well. So in other places you can just summarize. And so an example we sometimes say is like, if in the story you're at home and then you go to work, you don't have to tell us every step of the drive to work. You could just get in the car. You could just tell us the next day at work. You don't have to take us all the way there, step by step. And so there are ways where we used to call it. It's funny. We ended up changing it for the book because we thought it was too confusing. But we used to call it laundry listing things.

Like that you could just like skip us through a handful of things before you go into the next scene. But then at some point writing the book, we're like, what is a laundry list? Why do we even say that? Like it's like we had to analyze some of our own, like little mothy sayings and stuff, but it's like, you could just jump us forward in time or just like, you know, jump through a few things. But generally in the story, you want at least two or three scenes where you really take us into what the experience was like for you. That rings as really powerful to me.

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between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So what's your take on this? Sort of like a methodology that I live by when, when actually interviewing people, um, is shorthand the fact to get to the feeling. I love that. So, So when I think about scenes, I think my mind initially goes to like, well, like the scene is the fact, like walk me through what's happening in the sensory, like what do you see?

What do you smell? What's the action? But to me, a scene would also probably be like, what is the inner? What's happening internally? That is like shortly, like actually like take me into that because I don't really care about what's happening until I care about like, what is it doing to or for you?

Exactly. Yeah. Like you have to like, it is just like facts on the table until you take us into how you feel about it, you know? And what did actually truly meant to you? I mean, like so many of like, of our stories that started out as like funny, like little anecdotes or even like a fun, like slams, our slams are shorter stories or these open mic stories telling nights we have. They start out as just like a thing,

like a funny thing that happened. An example I always think about is there's a wonderful woman named Phyllis and she told a story about being attacked by a mime in the early 1970s in New York City. And I mean, it's just such, I mean, it's completely crazy what happens. He comes up behind her, she lifts her off her feet, you know, they really have an encounter. And she ends up coming back and going after him with mace. So, you know, they have this like true standoff and it's a great

story just with that but what made this story really become a main stage story that phil has told many many times on stage and it has just become i think one of the most beloved mob stories of all time is the fact that on that day she had a high stakes job interview and for a job that she had heard through the grapevine. They thought that she didn't really have the chutzpah to do. And so actually standing down, this guy gave her, even though he rips her skirt, she ends up like stapling her skirt back together and going to the interview. It gave her like the courage to own her own power that actually then helped her nail the job interview. So the first story, it was like more external,

like she's actually physically being harassed by this guy. It was like 1973. But the internal things of wanting to step into her own power and to have a bigger job and to live a bigger life, that is what makes you really get behind Phyllis in the story. Yeah. And it's funny as you were sharing that, I guess, I think you guys recently re-aired that because it's really fresh in my mind. I remember just hearing that not too long ago and it's such a good story. I was like, yeah, go. But so we've got like sort of like the internal scene, the external scene, and maybe that's also what you mean by sort of like the, you know, some reason reflection. So part of that is the reflection, like how did this actually land with

me? But I wonder if there's also this risk in the reflection, like part of it, like here's what happened. Here's how it made me feel. Here's how I'm changed of getting a little too preachy rather than just letting it land. Absolutely. And like, that's actually a real thing that we grapple with is you don't, well, what we usually say as far as preachiness is you never want to tell an audience how to feel because like they'll, because we find that audiences resent that, you know, that they want to come to a conclusion on their own and they want to feel how they're going to feel. And if you just like essentially give them the facts and like share how you felt, people will come to their

own conclusions i also think we went through a period of them off you know under my leadership to be clear where the stories got a little too wrapped up in a bone like maybe a little too after school special and we had to pull back from that and you don't want to have it too summed up at the end you know like let like let the, just like, you know, share what happened, but then let the audience take it where they're going to. You know, we do a lot of work also in advocacy. You know, we do, we have a whole global program, work with, you know, thought leaders and NGOs and all kinds of people who are trying to change the world. And so one of the trickiest things is if they actually,

the people who've done these workshops end up transitioning and doing stories on the main stage is allowing them to let, to just really tell a personal story, but without having to fill the story with all these facts and, you know, you should do this and blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, just telling the story about why you care about this so much will usually get the audience to care much more so than you standing in a soap box at the end and giving them a lecture, but people really want to do it. And it can be so hard to get people not to. Yeah. I wonder if it's almost like we've all been trained to do that,

to sort of like bring people home, like tell them what it means to you and then tell them what it should mean to them so that you can kind of spoon feed it. And that's how you end a good talk. And it's almost like, it's like you have to break that pattern, which also brings up another thing, which is the notion of sort of like the bigger, like the structure of a story. I mean, we talked about the building blocks, seeing summary's reflection, right? What about the bigger structure and the narrative arc? Like I was reflecting on recently Vonnegut, you know, like sort of like famed eight story shapes, you know,

like there are these eight classic shapes that every story fits into one of those. And, you know, there's the hero's journey. And then I'm like, but Pulp Fiction, you know, that some stories completely defy every edict you've ever heard about, like, like how you structure a story in a satisfying way and they blow you away. What's your take on this? I just think there's always so many ways to structure a story. I mean, we go through a lot of them in the book, like a lot of the ones that work pretty well with them off, but they can also get kind of stale too. And so often somebody will start telling a story one way and then we'll discover it's not quite working. And if we shift it just a little bit, suddenly the story takes off.

Like a lot for a while, we noticed there was a real trend at the slams that people would want to start the story in the presence, like in some dramatic moment. And then jump back and tell, you know, how they got there and then come back to that moment. And look, sometimes that's a really great way to tell a story. Sometimes the wrong structure can make a story feel overworked because the audience becomes aware of the structure and then it actually takes you out of the story. The structure that's going to best serve your story is one that just lets the story unfold without anyone actually thinking about this quote unquote storytelling technique that's going into it and also a place people go wrong with their stories sometimes is like sometimes storytellers will be unwilling to talk about a time when they did see something differently especially if it's somebody who like is an advocate in some way like we had

a storyteller once who is a freegan do you know what freegans are they're the people who like you know that tons and tons of food gets thrown away and they go into like grocery store parking lots and pull everything out and trying to give it away. And so, but we were like, well, what was the first time? What was your first reaction to that? And she really struggled and didn't want to do it because the truth is, you know, she was a Barnes and Noble executive.

And the first time she ever went out, she was completely disgusted. But the problem is, like, if we aren't with her the first time she sees someone eating a dinner that got pulled out of a trash can, if she's not disgusted, then we are not going to be able to be in tears with her, which we ultimately are, that she goes by, it was like a chicken, Boston chicken, I think, market and pulls out 30 entire completely sealed cooked chickens that had just been tossed. And she's just giving them away to people in the street. And you're like cheering her on. You know, it's like, where's my chicken, right? But you can't feel that way if she's not disgusted the first time she sees it. Yeah. So do you feel like when you're starting to figure out like, okay, so I think I have a

story. I'm starting to put together the scenes. It's feeling like there's something here. When somebody is figuring out what is the structure, do you feel like it makes sense to just first lay it out chronologically? Like, okay, let's just sort of like see how it unfolds. And then if it feels good that way, awesome, roll with it. But if not, after that, start to play with like, well, would it be better if we sort of like started here and move things around or like from a process standpoint? Yeah. Usually people tend to just tell us the first time the story chronologically in the order it happened. And like sometimes at first it can seem like a flashback is the best way to do it. Like originally with Alan's story, the Jaguar story, we started out with him on the floor of parliament about to make this big case

and then had him flashback in to his childhood and everything. But we found that the childhood story was so powerful that people kind of forgot about parliament. And by the time they got back to it, it was just like wait what what where are we we ended up dropping it and then we actually for his story with a structure that was really different for me at the time which is it opens with him as a child encountering a jaguar in this old zoo just like this terrible concrete pen and trying to speak to it, you know, as a child with a stutter and it ends with him actually out in the forest, turning and encounter this beautiful free Jaguar in the wild and having a moment with that. But we only got there over time, you know,

and part of it was because I'd read all of his books and so had remembered these two Jaguar encounters and we ended up putting it in and it became this beautiful bookend. But originally, it wasn't even clear, like, does the Steadery even belong in the story, you know? So we had to figure it all out. But generally, if you just tell it from beginning to end, you'll start to feel whether there might be a different structure that would support it. Is that too vague? No, no. I mean, basically what you're saying, and I think it's interesting, right? Because it feels like when we're talking about story time, there are certain things where you can kind of say like, yes, this matters, this matters, this matters. These are the key pieces. And then there are other parts of it where you're like, you know what? You have to kind of feel your way through it. The answer is when your heart is beating out of your chest and everybody else is laughing and crying with you, that's it. But you're not really going

to know until you try a whole bunch of different ways and you get there. It's true. And we've even gotten as far as our own rehearsal. We do a group rehearsal where all the storytellers come together and tell their story to each other and to members of our team. And sometimes it will be in that rehearsal that we'll realize that the structure isn't working. And luckily that happens a couple days before. And so we don't try not to make huge structural changes at that point, but suddenly it's like, you know what? The flashback really isn't working. Like, let's just like go back to telling it in order, or maybe you should start right here. And there's just a slight reorder and suddenly the story really works.

People can see themselves to be married to the order that it actually happened in their life. And sometimes that also can, you know, that the story is better served by telling it in a slightly different order. It's just a little bit of a, not untrue, just a little bit of a fudge, you know, because the way it actually happened might be more confusing for the audience. Because ultimately what you want is to have the

story not be confusing and to have the person listening be able to really understand. Yeah. It's interesting because it's an uncomfortable truth, I think, about like arriving at the final structure for what the story is, but it is what it is. You know, there are certain things that just like work better and don't. One of the stories I've told for years involved me opening a yoga studio and literally signing a six-year lease for a floor in a building in Hell's Kitchen, New York with a new home, married and a three-month-old baby on September 10th, 2001. And then I wake up the next day and I've tried telling it different ways. And I realized that if I actually kind of like tell this early part and like how anxious

it is to like do something and I saved the date until I'm like a little bit into it. And then I dropped what the date actually was. It's like, all of a sudden everything changes and people are kind of along for the ride for the first few minutes. But then it's like, all of a sudden, everything changes. And people are kind of along for the ride for the first few minutes. But then it's like, everybody's leaning in a radically different way. Whereas if I started out saying it's September 10th, 2001, totally different effect. And I've tried that. So I kind of know. Yeah.

Because then they're just waiting. They're just waiting for the shoe to drop. And you also don't want to do anything that's going to fill your audience with dread. That's another one of our rules is like, you don't want to sort of like hint at something like the tougher the story. Usually, you know, you don't want to just like hint at something and then the person's just waiting the whole time. Like, oh my God, I'm, you know, I'm dreading.

Like it's like, sometimes it's actually better to just flat out say something right at the top. With your story, I definitely agree that not saying it's September 10th until you get there, 100% is the right thing. Because if you said at the top, people would just be like, oh, what horrible thing is going to happen, you know, all the way through. But then sometimes, like, this is why it can be complicated trying to figure out structure. You know, just saying something, getting it out at the top can be a relief for the audience. So this is usually true in any kind of a story where a child dies. It's much, much better to just tell them right at the top because otherwise they spend the whole

story, you know, with their stomach and knots waiting for the dreaded moment. We just, we have a story going in the air soon told by one of the moms whose son was murdered in Sandy Hook. And we actually decided that she needed to just state that Ben died, that he was killed at Sandy Hook in the first three sentences and just get it out because then everybody would be able to breathe.

I mean, as difficult as it was, just have the most difficult moment right there. And then everybody can just know where we're at and stay with her. It was also important because she's someone who's very funny and you would not think that there could be humor. And yet, you know, because she's just a naturally funny person, there are moments in her story that are funny. And so it was important for us to like have Francine have a little humor right at the top two to signal to the audience that it's okay to laugh with you, even though you're telling a really serious story. Like the more serious the story, if you are someone who's funny at all, you want to signal to the audience that it's not disrespectful for them to laugh with you.

Yeah, that really resonates deeply. And it's almost also kind of what you're describing feels like to me. It's like, you can tell a story that is unsafe, but you've got to make the audience feel safe listening. Yeah, exactly. It's tough because like telling a story, you know, like with Francine, but I was just talking about like, you have to really take care, even, you know, sort of that, like you have to really take care of your audience. And one of the more difficult things that we have to figure out with people is like sometimes someone's not quite ready to tell a story. And if they aren't, you need to help them realize that because it's one of the worst things you can do is to put someone up in front of an audience telling the story that

they're not ready to tell, because ultimately it's going to be so uncomfortable for the audience, but it's really going to be not going to serve the storyteller. And one of the hardest things that we ever have to do sometimes is just say to somebody, hey, you know what? I think you're not quite ready to tell that. There's like a lot of signs the person might not be ready. But one of the big ones is like if they can't figure out really what they want to say about what happened, then they might not be quite ready. They might not have processed it. One of the things that we say is you might still be living your story. And it doesn't mean that you'll never be ready. I mean, this happens all the time is somebody will start

talking to us about telling a story and they're not quite ready. And then a year, two years, one of the great things about the moth being bigger now and having a little bit more stability is we can be on a two year, five year,year, 10-year plan with someone, which is a real gift because we have the time to invest in people, even if they might not eventually, they might never tell their story, but maybe they will just a few years in once they've had a little bit more time to process it. Yeah. That resonates a lot. The advice, especially for hard stories, like tell the story from the scar, not the wound. That line really stayed with me. I was like, boom, like that kind of summarizes the whole thing.

Yeah. That's actually, you know, that's me paraphrasing your fellow Denver of Colorado and Nadia Boltz-Weber because she was being interviewed and it was Krista Tippett, the radio host was asking Nadia when she knows she's ready to incorporate a story, a personal story into one of her sermons. And she said, well, I have a rule that I only preach for my scars, not for my wounds. So I was like, oh, my God, that's it. So good. It's like, yeah, you want to make sure that it's scarred over. There's Glenn Washington from Snap Judgment.

He has his own metaphor, because we sometimes teach together. And he'll talk about pick at your scab, which is like, I love that as far as being willing to be honest, to talk about your boo-boo. But also you want to make sure it's scabbed over before you start picking at it. Makes so much sense. And we've probably all done it a little bit too early and not realized until the middle of like, Ooh, I'm not quite there yet. Absolutely. Yeah.

You can feel yourself sort of spinning out when you're telling it. Yeah. Yeah. I want to start to, to, um, a comfortable circle a little bit, but there's one other, so we've talked about identifying and understanding like what makes for a good story is really the fundamental structure or the questions around structure. And then we started talking a little bit now about the telling of it. And there's one other thing I want to touch on around that,

which is this notion of memorizing versus familiarizing. And this is something you go into a lot. It's interesting for me also, because as a speaker, I've been taught different schools of thought. I have been through trainings where they say, basically spend 60 hours scripting a 60 minute talk and then spend multiple times that memorizing not only the top, but like every step that you take, like all the stage craft around it, and then rehearse it so many times then becomes embodied. And then you can get back to being able to deliver it in a natural place. That has never worked for me. I've tried it. And in fact, within the context of that one

training, I went through the process. And then at the end, we did a final presentation. I just freestyled it. Everyone's like, that was amazing. And I said, not a word of that was scripted. You may be one of those people. I know you have a very strong point of view on this. I do. I can just tell you this. One of the biggest fears moth storytellers have is that they're going to get on stage and forget their story. And I can tell you that's happened to me twice in 20 years of doing the moth. I've been directing the show since 2003. And both times it was a storyteller who was very, very memorized, who insisted on memorizing. Because part of it is you memorize the story you can forget it and people get like very hung up like one of the things that makes me sad is when the storyteller gets on stage and they're not actually connecting

with this with the audience because they're picturing the sheet of paper that's maybe like folded up now in their purse so they're just going through it line by line. But what they're failing to do is actually breathe and connect and look out with the audience that they're just, they can even in a worst case scenario become a little droney with it because they're just saying words, but they're not emotionally connecting to the words, which means that they're almost 90% are not connecting with the audience. And so what we encourage people to do instead is to just memorize bullet points, you know, to actually bullet point it out and to think about it in that

way. We do encourage you to memorize your first and last lines. This is a little tip. And why is that? It's because for the first line, you're gonna be really nervous. And if you get up there, you know exactly where you're starting, that's going to help you. But after that, just let it flow. And you also want to memorize your last line because even like the most seasoned raconteurs, it makes us crazy. They'll finish the story and they'll be like, well, I guess that's my story and just kind of wander off stage. It's like, oh, stick your landing. Those are the two things we encourage memorizing. And look, people have like the jokes that they say the same way every way.

There's going to be lines here or there where you often say them the same way. I'm not saying don't do that. But if you could just try to let yourself go, most stories, there's very few things that if you completely leave it out or say it in a different way, it's going to make any difference to the story. You know, like for instance, if I were going to do my wedding rehearsal dinner story, I'm not going to forget to say that it was my wedding rehearsal dinner. I'm not going to forget to tell you that it was double booked with another wedding. I'm probably not going to forget to tell you that the other groom started throwing chairs. And I'm not going to forget to tell you that it all turned out okay. Those are the only four things you need to know, ultimately, to understand

the story. Everything else is a detail. So that's what we try to teach people. It's like, you're going to just be much more, you know, there's just so few things that you could leave out that are going to truly, quote unquote, mess up the story. And so just dare to get up and do it without anything in front of you. I find it so difficult to prepare to memorize. Like I occasionally have to do something that's memorized. And I find that it takes me an hour of preparation per minute I'm speaking in order to legitimately do something that's memorized and that I just really struggle with it. But yeah, the few people we've had who've actually stopped and left stage, one of them was very generous. Let's write about him in the book. And both of them were people where the story was

really memorized. and so they got to a point where they just got stuck and left in the defense of the storyteller um mark katz he had was still one of the greatest stories of all stories of all time he told it so many times before successfully he went on to tell it many times successfully again um and he was telling in front of a very tough very cold audience and he did actually come back out in the second half and finish his story, which I think is so brave and wonderful. We were so happy to get to write about it. But in general, I just find that people connect much better if they're not so memorized. But I think it's really different. Like I think TED Talks are generally memorized. So there are a lot of different school of thoughts. And probably the most important thing is to figure out who you are as a speaker and then do what's going to serve you and your story best. Yeah. So great. And, and part of that, like when I was doing that one sort of like training where the like, you know, we're scripting and memorizing what's part of the process, part of what their philosophy was, like, then you devote, it was kind of the ratio that you just said, you know, like for

every minute on stage, it's an hour of rehearsal. Yeah. And if you do that, I would imagine a lot of people would actually come back around to a place where it actually does become so embodied that you can be more relaxed and more natural. And it's really part of yourself. But I think the reality is so few people would ever get to that place that it does become this memorized and stilted thing. And that includes me. I'm raising my hand.

I could never push myself to do that. So, but at the end of the day, I love your sort of like invitation to say like, do what's actually going to let you breathe and feel most comfortable and like deliver the story the way you want to do it. Yeah. I mean, I definitely have had storytellers who are memorized, who every word is memorized and you would never know. And I try to be respectful if the person really wants to do that. It's also like when someone writes it out, I usually say it takes me two or three weeks to get them off the page once they've written it all out word for word. So if someone really insists, like I'll have storytellers who are like, this is just how I process this by writing. So then go ahead and do it, but just make sure that we have plenty of time before the show to then have the written version go out the window and you be ready to just start telling it.

Because if not, it can just, you end up sounding written. You know, we have writers, they get very married to their words. And the fear is that it will just end up sounding over-rehearsed. And just about the only way you can bomb a them off is to come out and be very practiced and very rehearsed and have everything be so perfect. Because all of a sudden, if you kind of quote unquote, give a performance, the audience is going to treat you like a performer. And suddenly it just changes the dynamic of the energy of the room in a way that will not serve you. Yeah. It's like the difference between a performance and an offering, right? It's sort of like, one is like, there's a wall between us and the other is we're all in this together. Exactly. That's gorgeous. I'm going to quote you on that.

Well, I love learning. I love the book. It was just, I can get it. So as I shared, it'll be a reference manual for me. So it's learned so much. So good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I would say to live a life in which you are always seeking to connect and understand with others, whether that's your own family, or just the person, someone you encounter in the store. My mother raised me to, she would say, you always need to be nice to the person standing behind you at the grocery store, because you never know what's been going on with them. And I feel like I've carried that philosophy into my entire working life and

personal life. So in like a lot of what I do in my personal life is that I've had to learn over the years is to take really good care of myself. Because if I don't, then I can't be present with others, which is a thing that means so much to me. So I have to constantly try to refill my own cup so that I can be available to connect with others by telling stories and talking, but also to be available to listen and take in others in their presence. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Zoe Chance about really learning how to share your ideas, yourself, your presence, your stories in a way that draws people in. You'll find a link to Zoe's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable,

and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you wanna help navigate this thing called life

a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together.

Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

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