Good Life Project - How to Turn Passion & Play Into Impact & Success | Chef Irene Shiang Li

Episode Date: May 23, 2022

When Chef Irene Li opened a food truck, mei mei, with her siblings, hoping to have fun together, build something cool, and reimagine Chinese comfort cuisine with a playful, modern twist, what happened next took everyone by surprise. Mei Mei exploded, becoming the talk of the town within months. They soon found themselves looking for space and opening a full-service restaurant that was perpetually abuzz. The restaurant was a big success. But, beyond the chance to do something cool with her brother and sister, and push the culinary envelope, there was something else going on.Growing up, Irene’s grandparents immigrated to the US and slowly built up their own restaurants. While her brother had been in fine dining for years, she’d developed a deep passion not just for food, but also for the environment, viewing agriculture, the food and restaurant industry as a potential vehicle to change people’s lives, to completely upend the way restaurants run, and weave in a powerful thru line of social justice, advocacy and impact. And, of course, fun and love. As mei mei took off, Irene and the restaurant landed features everywhere from Food & Wine and The New York Times to People, Bon Appetit and more. Irene gained acclaim for her creativity and innovation, being named a Zagat 30 Under 30 and Forbes 30 Under 30 winner, six-time James Beard Foundation Rising Star Chef nominee, and James Beard Foundation Leadership Award winner. Her cookbook is Double Awesome Chinese Food: Irresistible and Totally Achievable Recipes from Our Chinese-American Kitchen.Like many restaurants, though, the pandemic was a brutal experience, the restaurant space eventually closed its doors, but mei mei - the creative, joyful food innovator brand - transformed itself into a next-generation direct-to-consumer and wholesale food manufacturer, focusing on their signature dumplings, with a heartbeat that remains deeply rooted in industry reform and social justice. Irene’s commitment to food, agriculture, cooking and community is a testament to the dedication she has for her work and her genuine commitment to being in relationship with others to impact the greater good. You can find Irene at: Website | Instagram | Dumplings | PrepshiftIf you LOVED this episode: you’ll also love the conversations we had with Ellen Bennett, the founder of Hedley & Bennett chef’s apron brand, about how she built a business in the food industry when everyone around her told her it’d never work.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED.Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Could we be the best restaurant to work at? Could we be the best restaurant as a community partner? Could we be the restaurant that helped feed the most people who were experiencing food insecurity? And so that's really what drives me now is what else can a restaurant do? How else can a restaurant find its success? So when Chef Irene Lee opened a food truck, Mei Mei, with her siblings, hoping to have fun together, build something cool, and maybe reimagine Chinese comfort cuisine with this playful modern twist. Well, what happened next kind of took everyone by surprise. Mei Mei exploded, becoming the talk of the town within months. They soon found themselves looking for a physical space and opening a full service restaurant that was perpetually buzzing.

And the restaurant was just this big success. But beyond the chance to do something cool with her brother and sister and push the culinary envelope, there was something else going on. She had developed a deep passion, not just for food, but also for the environment and for viewing agriculture and the food and restaurant industry as potential vehicles to change people's lives, to completely upend the way restaurants run and weave in a powerful through line of social justice, advocacy, and impact. And of course, having a lot of fun and love. And as Maymay took off, so Irene and the restaurant landed features everywhere from food and wine and the New York Times to people, Bon Appetit and more. Irene herself gained acclaim for her creativity and innovation, being named a Zagat 30 Under 30 and Forbes 30 Under 30 winner, six times James Beard Foundation Rising Star Chef nominee and James Beard Foundation Leadership Award winner. Like many restaurants,

though, the pandemic was just a brutal experience. The restaurant space itself eventually closed its doors, but Maymay, the creative, joyful food innovator brand, transformed itself into a next-generation direct-to-consumer and wholesale food manufacturer, focusing on their signature dumplings and with a heartbeat that remains deeply rooted in industry reform and social justice. Her commitment to food and agriculture and cooking and community, it's this beautiful, joyful testament to the dedication she has for her work and her genuine commitment to being in relationship with others to impact the greater

good. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. You were brought up from what I understand. In a family i had a passion for food that loved food that cooked um sort of like a regular dinner but also a generation above your parents where they

were in the restaurant industry yes i'm curious when you were young how exposed were you to their world so it was my dad's parents um who immigrated from Southern China and ended up opening restaurants first in New York City, in Washington Heights, and then in upstate New York. And I actually never got a chance to go to their restaurants. They closed before I was born. But I think that now looking back on it, I can see how much hospitality, the spirit of hospitality is ingrained in our family, and I think very much ingrained in Chinese culture. And I think that in a lot of ways, we've come full circle in the family, right? It kind of skips a generation.

But I also recognize that my grandparents opened a restaurant out of necessity. They had few options and a lot of kids. And so they did what they had to do to make it work. And here I am two generations later, following a passion, wanting to actualize myself as a person and going into the industry. And so I'm so grateful for not only them, but all of the immigrants who run restaurants in this country who are just trying to make it work for their families. That really paves the way for someone like me to have different and some might say higher ambitions, but I think there's no higher ambition than providing for one's family, frankly. Yeah. And you make a really good and important point too, which is that I think so many of us think about the restaurant industry these days, and it's become so high profile that it's become also largely romanticized. And we kind of feel like, oh, it's this sexy, fast-paced thing.

But the truth is, for the vast majority of restaurateurs, most of whom are mom and pop shops, where it's like, you know, like one or two people own, operate, manage, serve everything. It's just a way to survive. It's a way to put food on like your table and other people's tables and pay your rent, pay your mortgage, whatever it is. And it's actually, you know, the day-to-day reality of the industry for generations has been so different. And I wonder how you feel about the notion of it becoming so romanticized versus what you have seen in so many different ways and so many different levels. Yeah. I mean, I think that there is a lot that is romantic about food. So I'll say that first and foremost. But I do think that the most beautiful parts of food,

the most delicious parts of food have to do with community and being in relationship to other people. And I think that some of what food is, some of what restaurants are right now, is a little bit less about being a participant and more about being a spectator or a consumer. I think of the kind of high-end fine dining restaurants where you have no idea what's going on behind the kitchen door. And in fact, that's what the restaurant wants. They want you to have the peaceful, carefree, cared for experience. But in reality, still waters run deep, right? So we all know that it's chaos back there. And I guess for me, I think that we're trending a little bit back towards wanting an experience that's a little bit more real. That's maybe a little grittier, where you come face to face with somebody who is involved in producing your food. And that's one of the best parts of mom and pop restaurants is that a lot of the time, the person taking your order is the same person cooking is the same person who's going to take the trash out at the end of the night. And when I look around, I always think about how many

of today's doctors and lawyers probably grew up doing their homework in the dining room of their family's restaurant. And so to me, there is a lot that's romantic about that, that isn't necessarily this kind of sanitized version of it. Yeah. And I so agree. I want to take a little bit of a step back in time also, and then work our way back forward because your experience as an adult in your own industry, in your own restaurant, and then what you're doing now, I think it's really fascinating and important. But in addition, beyond your own exposure to your family and a devotion to food and to gathering people around it, you also had some really interesting experiences that sound like they were really important in forming your lens

on not just food and restaurants, but also sort of like the food chain, the food system. And I know one of those was your experience early in life at the Mountain School in Vermont, which I learned about years back when we were actually looking at for our daughter. And I was like, this place looks incredible, but I've never actually spoken with somebody who went to that experience. Yeah. The Mountain School is a very special place. And to tell you the truth, when I was a student there, I was 16. I was really not that interested in cooking, although I was very interested always in eating. One of my favorite meals was when there would be a roast chicken for every table. And they would have these pull apart

rolls where you take the little rolls and you dip them in butter and then you put each one in the pan. And I remember my friends and I would go around scraping all the little buttery bits out of every pan at every table. But I think what I did pick up from the mountain school was just an exposure to how food comes to be. It doesn't grow in the grocery store. It grows and people have to bend over to gather it. I remember one of my chores was collecting eggs from the chickens in the mornings. And to go from collecting the eggs to seeing one of your peers cooking them to actually eating them, that's an incredibly tightly closed loop that many of us don't experience in this country, certainly. And I remember very clearly eating spring asparagus that had been picked just hours before. And I don't remember what the number is, but asparagus loses, I think,

like 50% of its flavor within the first couple hours after it's picked. And it was like nothing I had ever tasted. So when I look back on that experience, I think a lot about what it felt like to look around the table at my loved ones, my friends, and to think we all worked together to create this meal that we're sharing, even though I wasn't working in the kitchen per se. Yeah, I think it's such an amazing experience. It's so funny that you brought up asparagus as you were saying that. So I grew up in the suburb of New York City, but we had this tiny little piece of our yard that we turned into a vegetable garden. And one of the things that we grew was asparagus. And I literally remember coming home from school and I'd walk through the garden. And I think

people may not realize this asparagus literally just grows straight out of the ground like a spear and just snapping off a piece, popping it in my mouth. And I was like, it was an explosion of flavor and texture that was almost completely unrecognizable compared to what you buy in many cycles down the road in a store. Absolutely. And I think there's something about knowing a piece of food so intimately, knowing its story that just makes it taste so much better. And that's why I love hearing about people's childhood food memories, because they're usually so closely tied in with the people and places that we love the most. Yeah, so great. So you go from there and you end up up in Cornell.

And one of the experiences that you have there is actually teaching in a men's max security prison, where you're not teaching necessarily from what I understand about food or about that process, but it's just, you know, like you're teaching sort of like the skills, but it sounds like that was a really powerful experience for you in, in a more expansive understanding sort of like of people, where they come from the relative levels of justice and equity. And it's something, it sounds like it was really formative in a lot of ways. It was. And I think that, you know, I had always been interested in issues around social inequality. That was something that my parents were really big on was exposing us as

kids who grew up with a ton of privilege in highly enriched environments, you know, making sure that we understood that our experience is not the norm. And I think that teaching in the prison facility in Auburn, New York, was both a picture of how monolithic and structural and institutionalized and immovable something like the criminal justice system can be. And at the same time, feeling that one person actually can make a small difference. And so stacking those two things up next to each other, that has a lot, I think, in common with the issues that we see in the food system. And, you know, I don't know that one person or one business can bring about massive change. But I know that we make differences in each other's lives on a one on one basis every single day. And I don't know, I think I'm a cynical optimist. And so I really try to balance my perspective that, you know, I don't know how much one person can do, but I know

that I'm not going to stop because it does a lot for me to work with other people, to support other people, to build relationships. And then, you know, maybe at a critical mass, we can really do something that is revolutionary. Yeah. I mean, I think when we get exposed to that, especially when you grow up in a so much sheltered way, or as you described, like with a certain amount of privilege, I know both of your folks, your grandparents had a restaurant or two restaurants out of necessity. Then your parents are physicians, you know, so it's a very different, it's like the pendulum swings completely the other way. And then, so it's interesting to sort of like see you hear the stories of two generations ago and then see're also taking time to go into this other place, which is so profoundly different, where there's just the sense of

contrast really landed with you? I mean, it can be overwhelming, I think. Certainly, growing up, I had never had a relationship with anyone who had been in prison. I had never visited a prison. And so it was just completely foreign. But then you remember that this is, you know, there are prisons everywhere. We just don't see the inside of them when you when you grow up like me. And so, yeah, I mean, the contrast is, is kind of it's hard to fit in your brain. It's so vast. But I think, you know, one of the farmer's market, meeting people, trying vegetables I had never seen before. And so in a lot of ways, whereas cooking started out as an escape, it came full circle for me in that now so much of what I

do is about trying to tackle inequality and trying to educate myself and my community at the same time in the service of hopefully some greater good. Yeah. So it starts out as almost like a respite, like this is the place where you get to just relax, enjoy, maybe have friends, enjoy what you're creating also and express yourself. So when you get out of school and, you know, so you have two other siblings, a brother and sister, and it sounds like your brother, you know, was in fine dining. So he's sort of, he's in the restaurant world. When you came out of school, did you have any intention of finding your way into the restaurant world at that moment?

Yeah. And it's, it's good that you said came out of school and not graduated because I didn't graduate. I took a year off, which quickly became three years. And the motivation for that was that our father was getting older. He had Alzheimer's disease. And so we thought this is a really good time for us to step out of whatever, you know, mini rat race we're part of and just try to be a family. And opening our food truck was kind of what we did to keep ourselves busy during that time. My brother and sister are eight and nine years older than I am. And so we had never even lived in the same house as three semi-sentient, mostly adult beings. And so there was so much for us to learn about each other and to connect on.

And the food truck, you know, my brother is an ideas person. And he was watching too much food network, he got all these big ideas, and it all spun completely out of control, which is to say, we opened the truck, and then the restaurant a year and a half later. And it's kind of all history after that. But it was a moment for us again to step away and then once again, find ourselves in the middle of a whirlwind. Yeah. When he calls you and he's like, hey, I've got an idea. What's your first response? What is your immediate response to that? Yeah. I think my immediate response was, oh my gosh, your idea of cooking is mixing two different kinds of chips together.

What are you going to do? And no shade, mixing snack foods is an art, to be sure. But it's funny because my sister and I were really passionate about food and agriculture and cooking. And my brother was all about hospitality. And so he was thinking about how much he was going to love being in the window of a food truck, serving people and talking to folks on the street. And my sister and I were thinking about, okay, well, what's the food going to be? And where are

we going to buy our ingredients? And so there was this way that we all sort of found our own lane within the business as we grew it. And again, it was cool to learn so much about my brother and sister through that process. Doing it in a way where it's an invitation to reconnect or it's almost like not reconnect, but connect for the first then Maymay, the restaurant becomes known for in no small part from the culinary side of things is sort of pushing the envelope. Is doing things like coming up with things where like, wait a minute, isn't there a rule that says you can't do that? And you guys are like, yeah, no, we don't follow those rules. It sounds like there must have been a lot of fun just sort of like figuring out how do we do something entirely different and new and not just do what has come before us. Yeah. I mean, it was equal parts kind of the creative spirit and the desperation of, oh my God, we sold all the food we made. We have to figure something else out. So our best selling sandwich over the life of our restaurant was the Double Awesome, which is a scallion pancake sandwich with melted cheddar cheese, two poached eggs and green sauce. And I'm I'm 99 percent sure that that was invented by my sister when she got to the food truck in the morning and had had a little bit too much to drink the night prior and was like, I just need a snack. And so, you know, so much of it is out of coincidence,

out of necessity. It's not all a grand creative process, although certainly there was some of that. And in a lot of ways to us, the food wasn't engineered to be strange. It was just the kind of stuff that we like to eat. When you grow up with a Chinese pantry and an American kid's palate, what are you going to come up with? A scallion pancake grilled cheese. It's kind of the most natural thing in the world in some ways to me. And so, yeah, we had a ton of fun with the food and being mobile, it was really easy for us to serve something completely different every day because we would be in a different parking spot. And so it was a constant cycle

of reinvention for us. Yeah. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true change makers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just

15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So, I mean, from what I understand, I mean, the food truck is there for about a year into that.

You're like, okay, so this is bigger than a food truck. We're actually going to open a space, which is a really big leap. I mean, it's one thing to commit to a food truck, but then to say we're actually going to run a restaurant. The complexity of that is like orders of magnitude higher. And I wonder if that starts to change in any way, the way that you relate to what you're doing and also the way that you relate to your brother and sister. Yeah. I mean, we fought a lot more because when you get into a restaurant, that's when, when sort of real money gets involved and, and real process. And you kind of can't fly by the seat

of your pants quite the way maybe you can on a food truck. And one thing people always say is, oh my gosh, you know, you open the restaurant after just a year and a half, you must have been so successful. And, you know, the food truck was doing well, but the truth was we were going to be screwed if we didn't have our own kitchen. And so again, you know, necessity, pressure, that's what forces us to grow and to do new things. It was thrilling to have our own bathrooms, to have air conditioning, to have, you know, all the things that are amenities in any normal restaurant, but not on a food truck. And I think also, we saw the restaurant as an opportunity, once again, to push what we were doing, to do more expensive food, to do a slightly higher end service, to try to achieve, you know,

a more refined level of hospitality. And we did do that for a few years. But there was also a point where we sort of looked around and said, Okay, it's time to go back to our street food roots. And that was, you know, I think the restaurant lived many lives and that was one of them. Yeah. It's interesting, right? Because I often wonder whether it's a restaurant or some other business that you start, whether you're a sole founder or siblings or just friends or other people, you know, oftentimes the seed of the idea is based in passion and the expression of that. And then based on that, it succeeds. And then the next iteration of it introduces all sorts of other things and complexity and also costs that make you start to say, okay, so we need to actually pull back on the passion and push forward on what we think we can sell because we've got overhead and rent and payroll and all this stuff. And then

it does succeed. But along the way, you lose track of what brought you to it in the first place. And I feel like so many people have this moment where we're like, okay, so from the outside looking in, you're like, everything is rocking and rolling. But does the thing that brought me to this in the first place still exist anymore? It's such a hard balance. We used to say, I remember my brother would say, running a restaurant business is a blend of art and commerce. And then he would point to me and he would say, this is art. And then he would point to my sister and say, this is commerce. And so, you know, there were some pretty well defined lines among the three of us in terms of

who was in it for the art and who was in it for the commerce. But all of that being said, I mean, my brother and sister trusted me in a way that no sane business owner ever would have or should have. And I'm sure I would not do the same thing if I were in their shoes now. But I learned so much from them. And when they eventually sold their shares of the company to me, I had to become art and commerce. And so I could no longer blame my big bad brother, the boogeyman for being all about the dollars and cents. I had to do it myself and become that person. And so not only did they allow me to go really deep into the creative food side, but they also helped me become a much

more well-rounded person, business owner, manager, and all of that. And so when I think about those years and the struggles, I really just am full of gratitude. Yeah. So they pull back from what I understand around 2018-ish. And then, so now this is you and of course your team of people who are helping you make this thing. And you're doing it in your own way now, and not too long after that. I mean, we're talking, I guess, middle-ish of 2018 or somewhere around there. A couple of years after that, we all know what happens in the world. So you go from a food truck in 2012 to a restaurant in 2013, to running it with your siblings, and then 2018 to basically saying, okay, this is mine now.

Like I am the end of every decision. I am the end of, and I'm responsible for people, you know, and they're, and not just our customers and our patrons, but all the people who helped make this real. And it sounds like even before 2020 hits, you were thinking, you started thinking in a really conscious way about how do we do this in a way that is steeped in dignity and honoring the human beings at every, like at every stop along the line behind, you know, like in back of the house and in the front of the house. I'm curious about your evolution of thought as like, this is a restaurant that needs to survive financially. And where I want to express myself to this

could be a vehicle to do something different and bigger and create impact in a different way. Yeah. I always like to talk about Emily, who was my sous chef. And she was actually the first person who we ever hired to work on the food truck. She was with us for about seven years. The thing about Emily was she dropped out of her PhD program in neuroscience at MIT. And she said, I just can't take it anymore. I just want to work with my hands and with food and make people happy. And it was so

great working with her in so many ways. And around that year, 2018 or 2019, I realized Emily can't do this forever. She can't live like this, knowing what we pay her, knowing what her hours are like. It's not sustainable. And if I were her friend or her sister, I would say, you better get out of that dead end job. And so the conflict of feeling like I love working with this person, I want them here in my business, and also feeling like I'm really underserving them. That was what pushed me to start looking at different ways of thinking about employment. And that was eventually what led us to open book management, which is a philosophy that we still carry on at Maymay now. And that really changed everything for us. Yeah. So by open book management, I'm sure there are different aspects

of it, but the one that certainly caught my eye, and I think a lot of people's eye, is you opened your books first to your employees, to everybody there. You're like, this is what's happening. This is the money that's coming in. This is how we're spending it. Businesses are notoriously sort of closed book when it comes to their employees, let alone their customers. And then eventually in 2020, you actually turn around and you become completely you're like, okay, so we're going to share everything with everybody who's first with your staff. What's that moment like for you where you've been protecting this information and then all of a sudden you're just like full transparency. Here's what's really happening. Jonathan, I was so excited. I was ready. And we had a lot of help. We had consultants who assisted us with the process, who helped us educate our staff so that they would have the appropriate context for the numbers they were seeing. But I wanted everyone to know that we were doing our best and we knew it wasn't good

enough and that we were both striving and achieving at the same time. One of the first exercises we did with the team was we said, how profitable do you think this business is? What percent of our sales do you think we realize as profit? And everyone overestimates. And when they find out what that number actually is, you know, it makes me seem like a little bit less of an asshole. If I'm saying, hey, you know, you don't get two towels, you get one or, hey, you know, you drop that expensive bucket of honey on the ground. It helps make us one team. And I'm always thinking about how we can make it so that everyone wins, so that it's not a zero sum game. There's enough pie for everyone. And in opening the books,

it puts all of us on one side of the aisle, so to speak. And we're all working toward the same effort. I think it's really easy to think about your employee as the enemy. But when you take a step back, how wild is that? You're trying to get the same thing done every day. You're already on a team. And so for us, you know, the numbers, the odds, the climate in restaurants, that was what we had to fight our way through. And we could do it together because Open Book put us on this playing field where we all had the same information. And so I was so thrilled to have that opportunity. Yeah. I have to imagine when everybody for the first, it's so interesting that you did that

experiment where you're sort of like asking the team, well, what do you think we actually bring in after everyone is paid? And that they all overestimate it because I think that's sort of like part of the romanticized thing. Even when you're on the inside, you're sort of like, oh, they must be taking home so much. And then people realize not actually the restaurant industry in general is like brutal. The margins are really thin with the rare exception of like big famous places, often with huge bars. And it's, it must've been such an interesting reality check. Do you feel like that changed the nature of your relationship with people or changed the nature of your relationship that everybody on your team had with this thing called the restaurant? Like, did they all of a

sudden feel more of like an ownership mentality or just a sense of understanding or empathy or forbearance in any way? Yeah. You know, when I think about the kind of before and after of open book management, I think I kind of disappoint the people who ask me because it didn't change that much. And that's because we had always attracted staff who were really passionate, who wanted to be part of something that they identified with, that they were proud of. And so while it didn't drastically change, you know, turnover or the culture, there were small changes. And my life got a lot easier you can call our vendors and negotiate prices. You can test new recipes and ask our guests what they think. You can do any of these things. Let's

give it a shot and see what we can do. And then I'm not doing it by myself. And I think a lot of the times people in positions of power use truth or transparency as a cudgel, like a weapon. Like, you have no idea. Let me tell you. And I really didn't want it to be like that. I wanted it to feel like, let me give you some context and let me do that because I respect you.

Not because I want to shame you with your own ignorance, but because you deserve to know. You deserve to be informed as you come to work, as even, you know, even if you're just chopping onions, you deserve to know. And I think that realization just changed the way I related to my team. And I imagine the way that they related to me. And I still think about what it meant to show people, you know, this is my salary. This is what we take home. This is what we pay in taxes. This is how much the internet costs. And feeling this huge kind of burden off of my shoulders from that. Yeah. So, but as you mentioned, it doesn't change the fundamental economics, right? It gets everybody more on the same page.

It's more open and more transparent. So like, it's like, we're all in this together now and let's see if we can do things to all help everything rise. But if we go back to that first employee who was with you for seven years, like fundamentally it doesn't change what was bothering you. The fact that like the, the money is what it is. The industry is what it is. I love this person. She's been so, so central to what we do. And yet still like, like I would imagine you're still thinking it doesn't change the story that says, but it's still not sustainable for her. So like, I'm so curious how you navigate that conversation. Yeah. I mean, again, it was a

new version of doing our best and we still felt it wasn't good enough. And, and I would say that even after many iterations, I still feel like that, but with Emily, you know, during the time that she was with us, we were able to pretty drastically increase her salary to improve her benefits and also to teach her something about small business. So many people come to Maymay saying that they want to know what running a small business is like. And up until Open Book, we were not providing that to them at all. It was supposed to be, was it education by osmosis? That's not a real strategy. And so the idea that they could leave Maymay with real skills and real knowledge that they could apply, you know, to their personal finances,

to their next job, whether it be in food or in another industry, that did really make me feel better about what we were ultimately giving to our staff. And so we're still trying to fight the good fight and look at employment a little bit differently. And as we move the company into more of a manufacturing production part of its life, we are always still thinking about that, the quality of life and how we make the jobs really work for people in a way that's sustainable. Yeah, I would imagine it's a commitment to this early, the humanity of whoever makes this thing called the entity possible, right? Yes. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work

with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him!

Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. So March of 2020 hits. You know, being a New Yorker and being in New York City during that time, I know how it absolutely decimated New York City in February, March, April, May, and rippled out to the Northeast really quickly after that. And among so many people whose livelihoods were just instantly suspended, the restaurant industry, the hospitality industry was just completely annihilated. And it sounds like you did everything you could to try and sustain it for as long as you could, but eventually have to let go of a huge percentage of your staff and close down the actual physical space. And then at some point, as you just described, like the company is in a new mode now, it's more going into packaged goods. It's taking these things and actually saying, okay, so we're now creating the food and sending it out in a very different way rather than hosting people in a space. When you make the decision, you know, and you're eight years into this, nine years into

this thing that started as a food truck with your brother and sister, and then you're in the middle of 2020 and you have to make a decision to not reopen the doors. I'm curious about that moment. It must've been so tough. Yeah. I'm curious about that moment. Because I had really staked everything on taking care of these people. the vast majority of our team, you know, handled it very graciously and they had seen the numbers. And so they knew what we were facing as a company. But for us, layoffs were a part of the employee life cycle that was so, it felt so corporate and we've never been so corporate. But, you know, for a lot of really good reasons, you have to be careful can't go back. We just can't.

And it wouldn't be right to go back because so many things have fundamentally changed. And then now with, you know, a couple of years of perspective, when I take a step back, I think there's an argument for the idea that we may have ultimately come to this decision and COVID just sped it up a little bit. Oh, that's interesting. We're coming to the end of our lease at our current location and we are opening a new spot that's going to be really focused on production. It'll still have a little dining room. We'll do cooking classes there and that kind of thing. But something tells me that we would have eventually gotten to this point and maybe COVID helped us get there. So, you know, of course, we try to find the silver linings in situations like these.

But yeah, you know, to your point, the moment was both relief and, of course, a sense of great loss. Yeah, I can't even imagine when you make that decision and you're sort of like in the process also of saying, well, what is the future of Maymay? What does it look like? Does it even have a future? And then what would that be? And you start to reimagine and re-envision it. It sounds like that was also a moment where you're pulling back yourself and saying, just as a human being, like as Irene, where do I want to devote my energy for this next season of my work of my life? And more expansive things start to come into what you want to do. Yeah. I've always imagined that in the parallel universes, there are Irene's doing very different

things from what Irene in this universe did. There was no food truck, maybe a PhD or a job at a nonprofit or something like that. And all of a sudden, you know, those other universes kind of come into view. And the disruption of COVID created so much opportunity. And so as I brought on new partners to Maymay, who are just two incredible women, along with the rest of our amazing staff who allowed me to take a step back, to not be in the trenches all the time. I looked at what I had done so far in my career and kind of asked myself, what could my highest purpose be? Where could my impact be greatest? And that's how I ended up as the program manager for the Restaurant Resiliency Initiative.

And it was basically, you know, 16 weeks of mentoring and coaching Black and Latino restaurant owners and, you know, hopefully leveraging all of my experience, the mistakes I made, the privileges that I've had to serve a larger group of people. And that has really kind of set me on this new path. And while Maymay and I aren't separate at all, I'm still very much involved in the company. The day-to-day is so well taken care of by my team that I am, like you said, allowed to think a little bit more expansively about what impact I might wish to have on our industry. So I'm curious what's leading that right now. When you think about that, I know you referenced the program manager position at Restaurant Resiliency. You've also,

you've been involved in so many different things, literally over just the last two years. Yeah. You know, launching unsung restaurants, raising money for mom and pop immigrant-owned businesses, launching or partnering on Off Their Plate, this grocery program for hospital workers, co-founding Project Restore Us, where it's all about paying restaurants to deliver, I guess you'd describe this like culturally relevant grocery staples. Yeah. And more and more and more. Like I feel like I blink and I'm looking at what you're doing.

I'm like, that is a lot of stuff. And I'm wondering like what's underneath all of it. As you're looking at like this moment, this season, what's really the unifying ethos here that's really driving it all? I think it's that I am in a position to act. And so I better do it. I know that my parents are very proud of me. And when I think about my grandparents, I think they would be very proud of me too. But I also think that they would want me to think beyond myself and beyond my own business. And in a time where there is so

much need, it just feels so obvious to me that I'd better step up. I don't really know how to express it other than that, really. I'm, again, incredibly privileged to have all of my basic needs met. I have no children. I have so much love and support poured into me as a vessel that making sure I give back is really the only way that I can handle how blessed I feel, honestly. And I think that, you know, being here in Boston, in my hometown, it feels especially important for me to be engaged with folks who don't have access to the things that I had access to. I want the future of Boston to look really different from the Boston that I grew up in. And there are some times when I grumble about being here, you know, oh, I would love to move to Oakland or Hawaii or whatever. But I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. It really does give me a sense of purpose. And there are pictures of her in uniform in the mess hall, making sure that everyone gets fed. And there was not a lot to feed them. But I think public service

has been a theme in my family, certainly for some number of generations. And it didn't feel at the end of Maymay like I wanted Maymay to be the best restaurant in Boston. That was maybe the goal at one point. But very quickly it became, could we be the best restaurant to work at? Could we be the best restaurant as a community partner? Could we be the restaurant that helped feed the most people who were experiencing food insecurity? And so I think redefining success, it happened sort of naturally over time. But that's really what drives me now is what else can a restaurant do? the vehicle of a restaurant or the restaurant industry, the food industry. You're like all in on that space. But you're sort of asking the question saying, how do we imagine its role in the greater culture, in the local community and then in like the bigger city and in society in general? Like classically, it's been about very often, about very often the owners and then the diners.

And everyone in the middle just kind of rotates through and often at a stunningly fast rate because the climate is just generally so tough. And what you're talking about is really just saying, let's keep this institution, but let's reimagine it almost like as a source of good and growth. And what would that look like? But I have to imagine, I mean, you're talking about something that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. And it's like, it's in the form and shape that it is not by accident. So it's like steering that ship differently.

It's got to feel like a Herculean lift. Yeah. And to think about Herculean lifts, staring at the walls of the Auburn Supermax Correctional Facility, right? There are these huge things that we face down and maybe we can't change the way we would like to, or at the speed we would like to. And yet every day we do a little bit and that's how I get through it. And it's okay to feel really small in the face of something huge and scary like COVID, like the sort of ugly side of the restaurant industry. But one thing that I learned when I helped co-found Project Restore Us is that the word restaurant comes from Latin and its root is the word to restore. And so this idea that restaurants are a place where you would go to restore yourself.

And even if you were a worker, even if you were the owner, you don't have to be a guest. It's a place where we can be made whole. That felt very powerful to me. And again, I'm always looking for ways for everyone to win. Not that I'm not competitive, because certainly I am. But I don't see why anyone has to get the short end of the stick. We make the stick. The stick can be as long as we want. And so that's what I think about a lot when I think about the future of restaurants is how do we get all the stakeholders involved? And how do we see ourselves as being on one team to change things to be better for everyone?

And that's a big part of how I've come to my newest endeavor, which was from a very distant parallel universe, but now trying to kind of tackle that question in a different way. Yeah. Are you referencing prep shift with that? I am. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me, I'm so curious about that also, because I saw, it seems like it's now you're kind of blending the world of technology and restaurants and appification and social impact and doing also part of this really cool, like fascinating sounding incubator called Visible Hands. I'm curious.

I'd love to know more about that and like what the aspiration there is. Yeah. So I started thinking about Visible Hands, which is a venture capital fund accelerator program, because Justin, a friend of mine, was one of the general partners. And he first called me to sort of get my opinion on what they were doing. And I said, I don't really know anything about tech, Justin, but OK, here's my opinion. And then he called me again and he asked me for my opinion again and maybe a couple of thoughts, referrals, people he might talk to. And then the third time he called me, he finally said, I would like to recruit you for the program. And I was stunned because I am not

a typical tech founder. And that is exactly what Visible Hands was looking for, for people with deep industry or subject area expertise who perhaps have a problem that they would love to solve. And maybe they've never thought about how tech could solve it before. And that was me. And so with PrepShift, my new company, we are creating a tool to help restaurant owners do better by their people. That's kind of how I would sum it up. What it looks like in practice is kind of an onboarding

and training app. I think many of us, if not all of us have had jobs where we showed up on the first day and we were just thrown to the wolves. I think every, everyone listening is like raising their hand. Like, yeah, many, many times. Exactly. No one told us if we could park our car, no one showed us where the bathroom was. We just got to work. And you can imagine that in the restaurant industry right now, the climate is so tense and there's so much pressure that it's really hard for business owners to look at a staff person and say, I'm going to really invest in them.

And there's this cycle where you say, I'm not going to invest in them until they've been here for three months. And of course, the employee is thinking, this person doesn't care if I live or die. Why would I stay here? And so everyone feels burned and the cycle continues and it's vicious. And so what we're trying to do is create conditions for employees to feel really cared for, to feel like there's a lot of intentionality being brought to their experience, and for employers to feel like everything that's flying around in their brains can actually be there on paper. We've also probably all, you know, gone to jobs where we received handbooks that maybe we read once and then we lost right away.

And it didn't come up until we were in trouble. You know, you signed the handbook. And so we're trying to think beyond such a transactional way of employees and employers in restaurants and to really think about how we build that relationship. And I also think about my grandma in this instance, too, because nobody opens a restaurant and says, I think I would aspire to be a terrible boss. But it happens because there are so many pressures, because profit margins are so slim, and because it's really easy for your employees, especially if they're not complaining, to be the last thing on your list of priorities. And so what we did at Maymay, we threw hundreds of hours of MBA labor at this problem. We created these crazy spreadsheets, super clunky system. It did work well. But the whole time we were thinking, God, I can't believe some tech bro hasn't made an app for this yet. And it turns out I'm the tech bro. So here we are, you know, raising a pre-seed round. We have a handful of pilot

customers who we're working with to bring their teams up to speed, try to keep everyone on the same page. And what's most rewarding about it right now, it's not the data yet. It's not the money we've raised. It's that you can see the relief on people's faces when they realize, okay, this tool is for me and it was made by someone who's been where I am. And so that has just been the best part of this so far. I feel really, really privileged to get to work on this project. Yeah. I mean, it's so cool.

You're effectively levering technology to allow people to be as human as they yearn to be, but feel like they can't because business complexity systems get in their way. And you're like, well, let's see if we can actually give that back to you. Let's see if we can harness technology to actually create more ease and humanity rather than the opposite. Yeah. And a lot of our customers, when they first hear us talk about this, they say, well, I don't want to replace the human relationship with a phone. And what we have to say is, no, no, no, we're using the phone to get all of the crap out of the way to reduce the friction.

And as you say, to bring ease to the relationship, to make room for what matters. And so, yeah, we're really excited. Yeah, I love that. It's like, wouldn't you rather use the phone to let somebody get through all this stuff and just have more time with them to mentor and be human and actually create relationships? Yeah, that's awesome. It feels very full circle in a lot of ways for you as well. It does.

Yeah. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So sitting in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think what comes up is sitting around a big table with the people I love the most, with food that means something to us. I guess those are the moments in my life when I have felt the fullest. And like I said, you know, like a container that so much love has been poured into. And I hope that, you know, as we come out of COVID, as everything else happens, that we can get back to that,

to being around these full tables, full of life, full of food, full of love and all of that good stuff. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you will also love the conversation we had with Ellen Bennett, the founder of Headley and Bennett, a chef's apron brand about how she built this business in the food industry when everyone around her told her it had never worked and how she did this really powerful, complete reimagining to get the company through the pandemic that eventually transformed what it does moving forward. You'll find a link to Ellen's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been

doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're gonna die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.