Good Life Project - Imara Jones | On the Power of Representation

Episode Date: January 20, 2022

Imagine walking through life, knowing who you are, but not feeling like you can live as that person? That was how my guest today, Imara Jones, experienced the first half of her life, before making a series of choices that would allow her to feel safe and supported stepping back into her own life, on her terms. Imara is the Emmy and Peabody Award-winning founder of TransLash Media, a cross-platform journalism, personal storytelling and narrative project, which produces content to shift the current culture of hostility towards transgender people in the US. As part of her work at TransLash, she hosts the WEBBY-nominated, TransLash Podcast with Imara Jones as well as the investigative, limited series, The Anti-Trans Hate Machine. In 2019, she chaired the first-ever UN High-Level Meeting on Gender Diversity and was featured on the cover of Time Magazine in 2020 as part of its New American Revolution special edition. She’s held economic policy posts in the White House and communications positions at Viacom. Imara’s work as a host, on-air news analyst, contributor, and writer has been featured everywhere from The Guardian, The Nation, MSNBC, CNBC, and NPR to Mic, and Colorlines, and focuses on the full range of social justice and equity issues. We explore Imara’s experiences growing up in a family and culture where revealing and living her truth felt not just uncomfortable, but unsafe, how that experience is universal to so many, and how she made choices that effectively empowered her to reclaim a sense of agency, identity, and purpose. And, we explore the power of representation in media, stories, and everyday life as a vehicle to open minds, conversation, and cultivate understanding, connection and the sense of shared humanity we all long for, especially now.You can find Imara at: Website | Instagram | TransLash PodcastIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Thomas Page McBee.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED.Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And living an intentional life is hard because it means reflecting on what you want, honoring your truth, and then bringing that truth in the world even when the world around you may not support it or you don't completely understand. And you don't only have to do that one time. You have to do that your whole life. You have to do that all the time. And that's a very demanding existence. So imagine walking through life, knowing who you are, but not feeling like you can live as that person. Well, that was how my guest today,

Amara Jones, experienced pretty much the first half of her life before making a series of choices that would allow her to feel safe and supported, stepping back into her own life on her terms. Thank you. of hostility towards transgender people in the U.S. As part of her work at TransLash, she hosts the Webby-nominated TransLash podcast with Amara Jones, as well as the investigative limited series, The Anti-Trans Hate Machine. And in 2019, she chaired the first ever UN high-level meeting on gender diversity and was featured on the cover of Time magazine in 2020 as a part of its New Revolution special edition. She's held economic policy posts in the White House, communications positions at Viacom, and Amara's work as a host, on-air news analyst, contributor, and writer. It's been featured everywhere from The Guardian, The Nation, MSNBC, CNBC, NPR, to The Mic and Color Lines, and really focuses on the full range of

social justice and equity issues. And we explore Amara's experiences growing up in a family and a culture where revealing and living her truth felt not just uncomfortable, but unsafe. And also how that experience is so universal to so many and how she made choices that effectively empowered her to reclaim a sense of agency and identity and purpose. And we explore the power also of representation in media and stories and everyday life as a vehicle to open minds, conversation, and cultivate understanding, connection, and a sense of shared humanity we all long for, especially now. So excited to share this conversation with you.

I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations,

iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what's the difference between me and you? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. As we dive in, you're in New York. It sounds like you've actually developed a love for both New York and Brazil and spent a fair amount of time traveling back and forth. Is that right? Yeah, I have. I'm curious where that starts to enter your life, the Brazilian side of things. It started in my first trip there in 2003, I think, on a lark. My friend called me one day at work and said,

hey, I'm going to Brazil for vacation. Do you want to come along? And it was always one of the places that I wanted to visit. So I said, sure. Not thinking anything particularly of it. And we went to both Rio and then to Salvador in the Northeast, Salvador being kind of the location of Afro-Brazil. As many people say, Salvador is the most African city outside of Africa, which I think is true and resonant. And when I got there, it was like a place that I was missing and needed,

but didn't know until I got there. And so then that just began this entire journey of going there. I don't know how many times I've been there. Luckily, I was able to get there in 2019, right before COVID. I haven't been able to go back because of that. But I've been there so many times. I've lived there off and on, once in 2006, another in 2010. I studied Portuguese, I learned Portuguese, I speak it fluently. And it's just really one of those examples of having to follow kind of your heart and understanding, you know, when and where you're called to do things in your life and following that. And so that's what I did. And it began an incredible relationship that has gone on and will go on. Yeah, I'm always fascinated when we touch down into a location that we've never really

thought about or been to before, and there's something about it that just calls you. I sometimes feel like there's this sense of almost homecoming, almost like you've been there before. I've experienced that in different places. I'm wondering if that was a part of what you were feeling at all. I mean, I think it has to be, right? If you, given the story and how much time I've been there and all that, I think that, yeah, absolutely. I think that that's absolutely the case. Yeah. And also, it's similar to New York in a lot of ways. Very different from where you grew up. You grew up in the South, Atlanta in the 80s, in a very different culture. And you were also a kid

who seemed like, the way I've heard you describe it is, you felt like you were different. You tell a story when you were about 12 years old, leaving a house in a pink shirt and your stepdad's reaction to it. Could you share a bit of that? Because it seems like that was a moment that is a bit of an anchor for you. Yeah. I mean, I just want to take a step back. In some ways, yes, they are very different, but then they aren't. Because Atlanta is a very black city, right? And so I think it has that in common with Salvador, where there is this pervasiveness of blackness that did feel very familiar to me, although a great many other things, as you say, were very different. So I just wanted to name that, that I think, you know, that's an important thing. Yeah, no, when I was between 10 and 12, yeah, no, I attempted to, I mean, I think I did leave the house with the pink shirt on. And yeah, my stepdad basically was like, you can't do this. Like, this is not something that people who are men, who society sees as men

and boys, you know, kind of does. And it was both, it was a warning and it was a threat, right? In the way that it was done. Less the words and more the tone and the context. Yeah. And I think that that was, you know, it was meant to signal that you can't be who you are. I mean, I already knew that. I knew that I was a girl. And it personified, it was the personification, it was the manifestation of what I had known from a very young age, which is one of the reasons why I, like so many other trans people, suppressed ourselves. So I think that that was, it is emblematic of this larger phenomenon that had been at work for me since a very young age. Yeah, I know you write the, and I'm reading your words, the excessive standards that Black people are held to by the wider society means that nonconformity, any expression considered

not the right way, is dismissed and erased. For me, this meant that I could not way is dismissed and erased. For me, this meant that I could not speak my truth and use my voice to tell the world who I was when I knew it. Like so many trans people, I grew up invisible. And it sounds like that's a lot of the feeling of erasure, the feeling of invisibility. I can't imagine carrying that around as an adult equipped with different you know, different skills, different coping mechanisms, different relationships and resources. But as a young kid, to of fear. And that a lot of adults carry that around. I think it's more extreme if you're trans, but I think a lot of people end up doing that and not feeling that they can be free in themselves and their choices. Yeah, I think that that's not

an, sadly, it's not an uncommon phenomenon. I think that a lot of people do that in a different, in a series of different ways. And I think the burden for African Americans and the history of African people in this country and their descendants makes that even more so because of that history and the need to conform. you can't express who you are and that you are invisible is indeed a heavy burden. I think transness is an extreme version of that. But I think a lot of people have that in their lives in a variety of ways, driven by fear. I'm curious, as a kid, how does that show up in your psyche? Rather than just focusing on any external manifestation, how do you feel? As you're walking around as a kid, how does that manifest? You're pretending all the time. That's the easiest way to describe it. What's strange is how I very distinctly remember feeling all the time that the world is interacting with you,

not as who you are, but as they constantly perceive you. And so consequently, you know, you end up learning to perform all the time. You know, you're pantomiming what the world expects from you, and they're interacting with like a projection of who you are, but not who you really are. And that's what you're doing all the time. And that's strange. And so then there's a even sort of greater inner part of yourself that, you know, that doesn't feel seen, that isn't seen. And that's maddening. And, you know, it's why there can be severe mental health issues for trans people. It's why that there can be these incredible rates of suicide. It's why there can be all these things going on because you actually never feel seen as a person and your humanity isn't able to break through and people

aren't able to interact with you in the way that you know that you are. And so as I say, I think you're walking around and you're performing all the time. Yeah. So it's like even if the performative self is being accepted or finding some sense of belonging, it's actually, it's the facade. It's the projection that's actually being- But it's not real. You know, like embrace. Right. But it's not you.

And you're always this other person behind it. That's right. I got to imagine it's not you. And you're always this other person behind it. That's right. I got to imagine it's incredibly isolating. Even you could be surrounded by people and family and friends, but the real you, you know, could feel just incredibly alone in that same place because it's not you that you're leading with. That's exactly right. And I think that it's why that, you know, people can struggle even into adulthood with

the idea that people will really accept them for who they are, even after transition and all the rest of it. So I think that it's a very isolating way to grow up. It's quite strange. When you were a kid, what were the things that kept you from stepping into who you knew you were? It sounds like part a level of, it sounds like part of it was fear. And I'm curious if that's true fear of what? Violence. I don't think that it was that that was an imagination that was very real. It was very, the threat of violence, either from within my own family and household, or from my community was very real. I mean, I remember even growing up being perceived as like effeminate or gay. That was enough to invite, you know, threats of violence, actual incidents of violence, not to mention if people knew that you were a girl.

And I mean, we have to underscore the fact that it wasn't until recently, and I mean, like four or five years recently, that there began to be sort of mainstream figures of trans people that portray trans people as human beings. It's a very recent thing. You know, it's fascinating when I talk to trans people who are even like late, like 18, 19, 20, they talk about remembering growing up as a kid, right, just 10 years ago, and not feeling like they had any representation of themselves and how isolating that was and how terrible that was. So that's true even for people who are in their teens right now, right? So I think that that's an important thing for us to keep in mind is this relative association with trans people with things other than violence, other than mental illness, other than marginalization is incredibly new. And so you take those three factors, right?

There's the threat of violence within your family and household. There's a threat of violence within your community. And then there is the violence and erasure in the larger world. And so I believe that my fears were grounded in kind of a rational assessment of the reality. Yeah. I mean, it's literally, it's, you know, in no small part about staying alive. It's about-

That's exactly right. Like, I need to be safe, you know? Yes, there's concerns about potential. What are the social concerns here? What are the family concerns? Like, what are the- But literally, like, fearing for your own ability to just, your own ability to just wake up the next morning with a pulse. What a horrendous thing to have in your head at any age in life, but especially as a young

kid walking around and having that sensation that you can't show up as who you know yourself to be because of fear of direct violence. One of the things that occurred to me is the word trans came up a number of times. And the folks who listen to this podcast is really interesting because it's really a multi-generational audience and a global community. And we will have folks who are in their late teens who probably have a very interesting, their understanding of both what the language and what being trans is. And we may have folks listening in their 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s who have either a complete unfamiliarity with the word trans or what being trans is, or maybe some sort of distorted or very old or set of assumptions. And I thought it might be helpful for us to actually just kind of unpack what do we, when we use the word trans and when we're talking about

being trans, if we could dive into that a little bit and actually describe how we're using that language. So we're sort of all on the same page. Yeah, of course. I think language is incredibly important. And, you know, there are lots of ways in which the emergence of new language is being weaponized. But, you know, English is always in motion and we should always be really clear about what we mean. So I'm excited to have this particular conversation. So the word trans is short for transgender, and that means transgender.

The word trans in Greek is about moving from one thing to another. And so trans people are people who move from being the gender that we were assigned at birth to the gender that we actually are. Being trans and being transgender is a recognized condition, in quotes. It is why there are medical interventions that work for trans people, that when they are applied to us, that help us be the gender that we actually are, that our life chances improve, our life expectancy extends, and we become whole people. And those interventions can include nothing, but they can also include things such as hormones and surgery that help people be the gender that we actually are. And so one of the things that I was talking about last time is that I always knew that I was a girl,

but I couldn't express that. And for people who struggle to relate to what that's like or if that's real, given our society and have, that truth has to be real because the learning around this is so strong. And I think as far as we know, and as far as there is human history that's been recorded, and I mean even on cave walls, we know trans people have existed in human society. We're actually not new. What's new is the idea of the binary, which arose around the need to classify people in very specific ways in the 18th and the 19th centuries, in particular in Western culture. We know that trans people exist in indigenous cultures in the United States, in Africa, in the Pacific, on and on and on. So we're not actually new. What's new is that we were deemed to not be useful, to not be normal with the standardization of human classification within a Western sense for the past several hundred years. And so what's actually happening is just a reassertion of human history. What we are able to do is to assert that there are people whom we know throughout human history are born in the wrong bodies. My brain is that of a woman and a

girl and always has been. My body, the way my body unfolded, was not congruent with that. And all we're doing is making those things line up and match. And that's not a new thing. The medical intervention is new, but the sentiment and the reality of our existence is not new. And I think that that's a really important thing for us to underscore. And just one other thing about language for people who are like, what's cisgendered? If you are a person not familiar with that term of any age,

cisgendered means a person who does not move. You stay in the same place. You are not in motion. So therefore, the gender that you were assigned at birth, when someone put girl or boy on your birth certificate, you're unfolding your life, your mind, your body, we're all in agreement with that. And so cisgender people don't have that same experience as transgender people and never have for as long as humans have been human. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple apple watch getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes the apple watch series 10 available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iphone 10s are later required charge time and actual results will

vary mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i know you're gonna be fun january 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight Risk. Was there something that happened? Was there something cultural, political that happens in the 1800s that leads to this shift to this rush to binary labeling that largely didn't exist before that. I mean, ironically, it's a part of the Enlightenment of deciding who's human and who's not. I mean, that's the dark side of the Enlightenment that we don't talk about. The Enlightenment, of course, being the end of medieval superstition and the growth of the belief in human rationality, to put it in very truncated terms.

And a part of that is deciding who's human and who's not. And so a part of that system is about classification. It's about reproduction. It's very concerned about reproduction. It's concerned about class and it's concerned about classification. It's about reproduction. It's very concerned about reproduction. It's concerned about class, and it's concerned about race. And so therefore, it's the development of these very specific hierarchies that were then also tied to systems of oppression, like slavery, like capitalism. It's around the same time that we have the division between women and ladies, right, in quotes, that ladies in society, women who behave a certain way or are attached to a certain class structure,

received protections than people who were just designated as women or female, right? It's around this same obsession time, this classification. So all of those things were working together to reinforce systems of economy, of dominance, of colonialism. And it's why some of the very, the earliest systems of classification of who's human, who's not, are very much grounded in race and racial ideology as well. So it all is tied together in a project that's not so great. I'm deliberately being facetious there. And I think that one of the things that's important is that there are lots of people that explore this.

One person who does this on Instagram very easily and very accessibly is a person called Alok, who has a lot of material about the development of gender, the development of gender tied to specific clothing. There are all these things that are tied into this project of classification and reclassification and deeming people as being inside or outside of structures. It also has to do, quite frankly, with the proliferation of Christianity, whereby indigenous cultures and religions had representations of people who were trans, or had representations of people who were intersex, totally different, and had cultural space for those things. And Christianity doesn't, and Western culture doesn't. And it's very interesting to me to think about the ways in which Western culture is actually a primitive culture in a way. We like to think of it as being very sophisticated. But when it comes to encompassing humanity and our complexity and allowing for cultural space for all different types of people to exist with true equality, it's actually quite primitive and has a long way to go.

Yeah, it's so interesting, right? Because it feels in an interesting way that Western traditions, Western culture, very often Western-based faith traditions will take on the positioning of expansiveness, but the dogma of reductionist, reductiveness. It's sort of like, let's distill things down to the most discreet possible things. And then there's an in and out, a good and a bad, an acceptable and an unacceptable. And I think sometimes we think about it, well, that's just the way that it's always been. But in fact, as you're sharing, when you look back through history, this is actually a relatively recent phenomenon and a harmful one in many ways. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's what's really interesting. We like to think of these things as permanent and then somehow that we're

new, but we're not actually new. The exclusion of us from humanity is what's actually new and tracks with a very specific time in history. And I don't think people know that enough. And it's because, you know, the classification of strict man and strict woman is very, as I say, it's one of the earliest divisions we learned before anything else. It's one of the organizing principles of the world. And when something seems so fundamental, when it's something that you grasped, maybe even before you spoke, but definitely not long thereafter as a way to divide humanity, that's something that's very, very hard for people to not believe is true because they believed it as true for such a long time.

And they didn't grow up in a culture which said, no, there are actually multiple genders, and there are actually multiple types of bodies, and there are multiple ways that people can be. And because we don't have cultural space for people in that way that is endemic to our culture, we actually end up with very, very narrow pathways for humanity that are not good for us, that are not healthy. Because, you know, nature is expansive. Nature creates. Nature is always trying something new. Nature is always about not sticking to things in a very specific way. And we try to say somehow that we're not a part of nature and that we don't do that when we are. And trans people are a part of that tradition and we'll be much better off when we actually got to choose the label that was placed upon us back then.

So this isn't a reassignment. This isn't I'm choosing to be something different or I am something different. This is who I've always been. And it is almost a reclamation of the language of the identity and just saying, okay, so this is me. And I've heard conversations where people are saying, well, it's a change you're making later, or it's a preference, that word preference. I've heard, and I would imagine that you have had a conversation around that as well, any number of times. Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting is the only preference that I've exercised is to be true to myself.

That's the only thing that I've done. I haven't done anything else than that. I haven't chosen to not be who I am. That's so strange. Who would go through everything that I've had to go through and that trans people have to go through as a preference? And I think people use that as a way to not try to take us seriously because they have to actually take themselves seriously and their own choices. And honestly, most people don't make intentional choices in life. They make the choices that they think they're supposed to make. And the fact that trans people exist and we've had to make very intentional choices,

I think is very intimidating. So in order to not have to do that work, it's just easy to say, oh yeah, that's just a preference. Because if you dismiss it that way, you don't have to actually consider that we're real. And then look at us and then think about your own life. The other thing that I've heard in conversation, and I've actually heard this among parents of kids who are probably like the early teens-ish, some variation of the phrase, oh, they're too young to know. And it's interesting because when I've heard that, I almost want to reflect back to the parent, were you too young to know? You're like, why does that not apply to you? But it applies to this other person who's making a choice that you don't understand. It's an interesting gut check. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, first of all, if it wasn't real, it wouldn't have stuck with me all my life. Right?

Like things that are false don't persist. So that's one of the ways that I would answer that. I think the second way that I would say is knowing early is actually a pure form of knowledge because it's actually not infected by all of the other things. Yeah. And thirdly, you know, there are people who know they're trans, try to live their life as cis people, do live their life as cis people, and then realize that it doesn't work for them, and then in their 70s or 80s be like, I'm going to transition because I don't want to continue to live my life as a lie

even at this late stage. So is it that they don't know? They've been around for seven or eight decades on the planet. They don't know themselves well enough. What they learned about themselves early on and tried to deny through marriage and through children and through grandchildren, they don't know. I just think that when people say things like that, they just haven't thought a lot about it, you know? And I try to have empathy for that because, you know, the title of this, of course, is The Good Life Project. And a part of living a good life is having to be intentional. And living an intentional life is hard because it means

reflecting on what you want, honoring your truth, and then bringing that truth in the world even when the world around you may not support it or you don't completely understand. And you don't only have to do that one time. You have to do that your whole life. You have to do that all the time. And that's a very demanding existence. And so it's easier for people to live an unconscious life and to tune it out and to go through the motions and to not make a fuss because it's just easier in the short term, right? The days are easier, but the years end up being long. And seeing people, coming across people who have to live intentional lives with intentionality,

that can be very, very frightening and very intimidating. And so it's just easier to find ways to dismiss, to deny, to erase, to silence, to even oppress than it is to face yourself and what you've done and why you've done it. And to maybe be faced with the choice that everything that you've done to a certain point, you haven't really wanted to do. And then what do you do? Those are all big questions. And I think that's a part of the dismissiveness and fear. Part of it is dealing with a lack of knowing. Part of it is dealing with your own ignorance and assumptions to a certain extent. And earlier in our conversation, we talked about the threat of violence. And I guess what I'm trying to do is bridge people are so often and routinely exposed to what i'm always trying to think about is where is that actually coming from what is the genesis of that is it societal overlays is it assumptions is it misinterpretations is it the media is and i know this is where so much of your your work uh you know like in in your career and your field has emerged into. But how do these misperceptions become fear that then becomes things like rage or hatred or violence? Well, ignorance is a great place for fear to start, like lack of knowing something.

Lack of knowledge, a lack of understanding is the basis of human fear. And I think that that starts very early in our evolution. Kind of the unknown place in the landscape in the African savannas or the unknown, the thing that's unknown can be scary because there can be something there that lurks, that's lurking that's going to eat you, or that's going to chase you. Or, you know, there are lots of different reasons why the unknown can be frightening for human beings. And therefore, we get addicted to the known, like the known place, the known path, the known, you know, it just feels safer. And I think in some ways we're conditioned in that regard because of our evolution. So funny, our evolution has so many different strands, but this is one of them. There's also a part of our evolution that's about exploration, right?

Human beings are extremely complex animals, I think. Indeed. Very complex. If there are aliens out there and they try to understand us, good luck. Good luck with that. Maybe that's why we haven't had the alien invasion, because we're just too vexing. Right. They're like, I just can't deal with this. I'm working. I can't deal with it.

I don't understand. It's going to be too much. Whatever. Keep going. What's next planet? So that's one thing. I think that ignorance is a part of it. Our lack of knowledge is tied to fear in our brains, I think. And then a huge part of our society

is about othering other people to your benefit. You know, we do live in a society which is stratified along systems of classification, along race, along gender, along education, along a whole host of things. We live in stratified societies, and a part of stratification is the othering. And I am, so you are not, therefore I have, is kind of the formulation. And so in that there's not a lot of space and flexibility, this is why I was saying how a lot of this is tied to the enlightenment and

classifications about who's human and who's not, who's deserving, who's not, et cetera. That I think that that's a part of our society. We do it all the time. So why wouldn't we do that on trans issues? I mean,

if you look at the idea of who gets to kill people in this country and who doesn't, stratified. Some people get to and some people don't in terms of the law. I mean, effectively in terms of the law. Who gets to violate other people's bodies and who doesn't? I mean, there are all of these ways in which we have this stratification and this othering that's a part of our society. So, of course, on some level, that's going to also be tied to gender and gender identity because it's tied to everything else. So we live in an othering society. I mean, a lot of things that we're talking about are things that we don't like to face in our society, in our country.

But they're kind of the undercurrent that block progress. And I think it's time for us to face them. So that othering allows for certain people to be entitled, to have privilege, to advance. And so these things are all bound up together. When we think about, okay, so now what? And so these things are all bound up together. you end up in Columbia and then London School of Economics, Ecom, and then spend a window of time in policy and then in corporate America, in media. So when you made the decision to leave, to come to New York, it sounds like that wasn't just a decision to say, okay, I'm going to school. It was a decision in part to remove yourself from a world, from a culture, and step into another place where

maybe you felt there was a greater opportunity for you to actually live as who you were and build your life and your living and your career and your contribution differently. I'm wondering if that was part of the transition for you into living more as who you were and then eventually building a career around that. That's absolutely right. I don't think I thought about it at the time in that way, but that's absolutely right. It really set me on my path, leaving Atlanta, leaving the South, coming to New York, really set me on the path for a continuing unfolding of who I am. It would not have been possible without that.

And I think that's one of the reasons why my mother fought it. I think that she knew on some level that she really, really, really fought me coming to New York and coming to Columbia. And I think that's the reason why, because it really did. Leaving Atlanta at 18 to come to college in New York City at Columbia was probably the most consequential decision I've ever made because it led to so many of the others. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch

ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight risk. I know you shared how in the early days it was not the easiest relationship with your mom. Your mom eventually had cancer and passed. And it sounds like there was some reconciliation. Did she know you? And did she come to accept you sort Sort of like, as a trans person? of her life. But I want to say that a fascinating thing is that our relationships with people, particularly our parents, and then I think especially our mothers, don't end just because they pass. Those relationships don't stop. We still have relationships with them. You know, if people are energy, the energy isn't gone.

The relationships aren't gone. It's just the physicality and the presence are not there in that way. And I really feel that our relationship has continued to evolve. And I really do believe and know that my mother does know me and does accept me and does love me and sees me in my fullness. I really know that. And, you know, there are things that can become clearer in death, strangely enough, than in life. Things that can tell me more? Well, you are removed from the TikTok of your interactions. You know, every interaction gets into a dynamic. And so you're not in that dynamic anymore, right? Because we're not here.

And so therefore, you know, you get to see kind of the underpinnings of your relationship. And that's from our perspective. And then I really do believe, as I said, that our relationships still persist, that if it is true that we are energy and no new energy is destroyed or created, it's a very essential rule in physics, that therefore in death, there's also a continued understanding and growth that continues to happen in their energetic presence. And those two things are happening at the same time. And so, as I say, I do believe that my mom sees me and knows me and loves me and is fundamentally proud of who am, and believes in me and what I'm doing. Yeah, that's powerful. And so much to believe in, and also to see, and to be proud of. Over a period of decades now, you've been in the White House in policy positions, worked at Viacom, done incredible things with the No HIV AIDS campaign, MEP buddy, journalist on air, all the things. Like tremendous media impact, but in a very purpose-led way.

And you made this really interesting decision in 2018 to create this docuseries, Translash, which eventually becomes something much bigger. But I'm curious when you're thinking about the initial project, which is heading back to Georgia and really sort of like taking this journey back into your life, what led you to say like, this is what I want to do and now is the time to do it? People that I've worked with and trusted sort of forced me to do it. That's actually the truth. Because so much of storytelling, and specifically when you're in journalism, we're very focused on other people's journeys and stories. And then to center ourselves is a very odd thing.

Or should be. I mean, not everyone. I mean, there are some journalists that we can think of. But I mean, for most people, right? Like, it's not, you don't center yourself in the story. You're very concerned about other people's story and what's going on in this, that, and the third. So then to put yourself, for me to put myself at the center of the story was very uncomfortable and sometimes still is uncomfortable. And so I had to be convinced to do it, and I'm glad that I was. A part of growing and being open

is not only listening to ourself, but knowing when to listen to other people. We don't listen to other people all the time, but there are times when you should, when you're actually wrong about what you're doing and the choices that you're making and what you're thinking. You're not doing the right thing, And my friends and my colleagues were right. And so that's why I ended up doing it because I knew when to listen.

You end up going back to Georgia, going out to parts of your family, which were outside of Atlanta, part of the story. Way outside. Way outside, right? And you end up with someone named Mama Rose, who I guess, was it your mom's aunt or your great aunt? Mom's, yeah. Right. And kind of saying like, well, tell me about,

tell me about my past, tell me about my mom's past, tell me about what was going on, trying to get a sense for all of this. And at some point end up speaking to your 14-year-old, I guess would have been niece? They are effectively my nieces. They're actually my cousin. But I mean, in our relationship and functionally, they are my nieces. I still think they're my babies, even though they're 17, 18, and 16 now.

Ah, I love that. And there's this interesting moment, right? Where at 14, you're trying to get a beat on, like, what's her take on you? She's like, you were a beautiful creature just as God has made you, which is really interesting because you wouldn't necessarily expect that

based on sort of like cultural lore about how somebody of like a certain set of beliefs in a certain part of the world in a certain part of the country in a certain part of a state would view a trans person and yet here you have this this kid looking at you and saying yeah totally cool um which really it broke so many of the narratives. And I'm wondering how that sort of whole experience and moment landed with you. Yeah. I mean, it was really powerful because, you know, you don't know what you're going to get.

Mama Rose was at the very early stages of Alzheimer's. She has since left us last year. And we didn't know what we were going to interview her. And then at some point, she says, I want to talk. And so then she just did. And like thousands and thousands and thousands of people instantly fell in love with her. Like, she's by far the most popular person in that documentary. And I think for all of them, I think for someone who is in their 90s, who went to church every Sunday of their life until they got too ill to do so in the last year of their life, who was very active, who was, you know, extremely religious. And for that person to say, I know who you are, and I love you,

and I don't judge you, and that's not what we're here to do, made me think that if she can be pro-trans, if she can embrace trans people, then what's your excuse? Like, there's no other, you know, she lives in Southwest Georgia, not far from where Jimmy Carter grew up and is African American, you know, in her 10th decade of life. It's seemingly religious, as I say, and would call me by appropriate pronouns.

So if that's the case, what literally is everyone else's excuse? There is none. And it also means that there's wide possibility for us to be able to have rights and understanding. That was also the other thing that I got from that. That the portrayal of things being hopeless and narrow in certain places and open and expansive in others is kind of a myth. And that what we have to do is to talk to people as human beings. Everybody understands a human story. And everybody can relate to that.

So let's talk to people in human terms about our humanity and let's see how far that gets us. And then my cousins, I mean, they're, they're amazing. Um, I was really shocked.

You know, I think that teenagers think more about gender than almost anyone because they're coming into their gender. One of the things I really realized about my cousins and seeing them is how they tried on different parts of their gender all the time. They were figuring out what kind of girl they were to be what kind of woman they were. And sometimes they would be without makeup,

sometimes with long wigs, sometimes lots of makeup. They were really trying out what was right for them it be without makeup, sometimes with long wigs, sometimes lots of makeup, sometimes, you know, like they're really trying out what was right for them. And I think in trying out what's right for them and figuring out what resonates, what is actually happening is what people forget, which is that there's a large part of your gender that's learned. There's a large part of your gender that is not natural. You are trying on different identities until you say, oh, okay, this is what type of woman I am, or this is what type of man I am, or this is what you're, it's all, it's not, there's not a set thing to it. And it's not all biological. Large part of it is learned. There's nothing natural about

knowing how to do makeup, for example. You gotta learn that. There's nothing natural about that at all. And so many other things that we could point to. And because they're in that gender conversation in their head, they actually had really deeply intelligent things to say about gender in our society, because they spend so much time thinking about it and so much time observing other people. And therefore, they have some of the most interesting things to say about gender that I've ever encountered. Yeah, I love that. It feels like the conversation, it is a very generational thing. Is it generational

or is it that we're all sort of much more open when we're a lot younger? We're all trying on a lot of different things. And then we sort of like fall into a structure because that's what society tells us is the appropriate way to be. But now the rising generation especially is just the structural assumptions, the things that said, okay, so you're X or Y, like you're male or female, and this is the way it is. For the youngest, the emerging generation right now, I feel like so much of that has just blown up. And they're just not making those assumptions from the earliest days. And they're stepping into just their own experience with more freedom. And of course, I can't say that universally for every single

person, but I feel this sense of emergence around that exploration, that freedom to just say, who actually am I when I get to choose, when I get to feel, when I get to step into and explore my life in a way that I feel like older generations, they didn't ask the question because they didn't know it was available to them. They didn't examine the assumptions because they didn't know that there was a freedom to examine them and to actually own whatever the felt answer was rather than the assigned answer by someone outside of them. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I don't think that it's a natural thing to naturally question when you're younger.

There's lots of generations that didn't question anything when they were teenagers or in their 20s. So it's not a natural thing. It is a cultural thing. And there is more cultural possibility. You know, for example, baby boomers questioned authority because so many of them had parents whose dreams opened up around World War II but were dashed. They had deep frustrations in them. And therefore, they taught their children to not necessarily believe that women couldn't do things, for example. You know,

you think about the number of women that worked and were in the war and flew planes and built things and ran things. And then all of a sudden, you know, you've done that for five years, and men come back and you're shoved back into these roles. And there's this heavy, public, almost indoctrination program in the 1950s to get women to basically forget the 1940s. Like, forget that all that stuff happened. And people were quietly saying different things to their daughters. And the same thing is true for African Americans who did all those things, and then came back to a segregated country. And many of those people raised their Black children to believe that they could live in

a world where they would be free. And so then their children were different. This is what I mean, these cultural openings. And I also think that the same is true now. I really do believe that it's funny, millennials are a combination. They're the children of lots of different generations, not just one. So some of them are the children of late baby boomers. Some of them were children of Gen Z. Some of them are children of early millennials. It's kind of an interesting group. But their parents raised them as well to believe in themselves and to think differently and to question things. And so they are. And we have this space in this moment. And I do believe that they are more open. They also face a world that can be

really hostile to them. And for as many of them that are open and questioning like my cousins, there are, you know, I hate to say it, people like Kyle Rittenhouse, who's very much, you know, of Gen Z, 16 years old, smack dab in the middle of it. So I think we can't get too ahead of ourselves in thinking that the entire generation is a certain way. But I think that your framing and the leanings of Gen Z are exactly accurate. And it's because in part, their parents helped to create these cultural moments for them. Yeah, I think it's really, I do agree with everything. And I do feel like we are in this moment. I think there's a window here. So it's interesting to see how you've, you know, when I look at what you actually, you started in 2018, which starts as this docu-series,

like as Translash. And now you're really, it's emerged into something much bigger. Like now this is a policy organization. This is a media company. This is, this is a, a storytelling and production like movement that is championing and helping tell a fuller set of stories. And in no small part, I have to imagine because if so much of the popular narrative comes from stories told in the media, well, then part of the solution has got to be, let's tell a broader, more honest set of stories. So I'm just going to take that clip and play that in every meeting that I go to. Thank you so much.

I'm done. Yeah, no, I think that that's exactly right. It is the answer. And then the more stories we create about ourselves, it then creates the pressure on media to do more. You know, we're helping to shape pop culture and they're responding to things that we're doing. And I think that that's absolutely right. We are the only ones who can tell people who we are and all of the things that we're interested in and why we are human just like everybody else and why we deserve the same things that everyone else does for the

exact same reason. Only we can do that to an effective degree because only we know what it's like to be trans. It's very hard for someone who is not trans to actually tell trans stories accurately in a way that is compelling and authentic. It's very hard. So we have to do that. And I think what's great about Gen Z is that there are so many ways that we can reach them with these stories. I was actually talking to the head of the Trevor Project recently that's devoted to keeping LGBTQ alive centered around mental health and suicide prevention and was saying how they have documented research that shows that kids who see story, let me say young people for the 16-year-olds listening, that young people who see their stories reflected accurately in the media are several times less likely to commit suicide.

So it is essential and vital work. Yeah, so powerful, so powerful. Feels like a good place, I think, for us to start to come full circle in our conversation as well. Sitting here in this container, a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? that originates from you owning yourself, owning your gifts, and bringing them into a world that makes space for you and is receptive. That's an amazing life. Thank you.

Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Thomas Page McBee. Thank you. Go check out my new book, Sparked. It will reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.