Good Life Project - Indrani Pal-Chaudhuri | Changing Culture with Images & Story

Episode Date: April 19, 2021

Imagine being a young photographer, working to stand out and rise up in a hyper-competitive industry, then getting a call one day from Iman and David Bowie, asking to shoot the cover of Iman’s next book, after two of the covers shot by two of the world’s top photographers had been rejected? That is exactly what happened with Indrani Pal-Chaudhuri. That moment would become an inciting incident, leading evermore opportunities to deepen into her wildly imaginative and compelling magical realism style and launch years of award-winning collaborations, image-making and storytelling with everyone from HBO, Vogue and Vanity Fair, to Pepsi and Nike to L'Oreal and icons like Beyonce, Gaga, Bowie, Kate Winslet, Pharrell Williams, Eugene Brave Rock, Jay-Z and countless others. Indrani’s work is exhibited in museums worldwide and in the permanent collections of the National Portrait Gallery at the Smithsonian. Over time, she’s integrated her love of image-making and storytelling with her passion for service in the name of social justice and impact, and expanded from still images to film, including directing the powerful Girl Epidemic documentary about sex trafficking and slavery.Beyond directing, advocacy has taken a much more central role in her work and life, with positions as the co-Host of the Global People’s Summit at the United Nations, host of the New York Live Arts' Humanities Symposium, and Co-Founder and Executive Director of Shakti Empowerment Education for women and children in India. She also lectures at her alma mater, Princeton University, on "Mobilizing Millions with Art and Film for Human Rights and Social Justice." You can find Indrani at:Website : https://www.indrani.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/indranipc/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Okay, so imagine this, you're a young rising photographer working to really stand out in a hyper competitive industry, and then you get a call one day from Iman and David Bowie asking you to shoot the cover of Iman's next book after two covers shot by two of the world's top photographers had already been rejected. Well, that is exactly what happened with my guest today, Indrani Palchaudhuri. And she rose to the occasion and absolutely knocked it out of the park. That moment would become an inciting incident, leading to ever more opportunities to deepen into her wildly imaginative and really compelling magical realism style and launch years of award-winning collaborations, image-making, and storytelling with everyone from HBO, Vogue,

Vanity Fair, Pepsi, Nike, and L'Oreal to icons like Beyonce, Gaga, Bowie, Kate Winslet, Pharrell Williams, Eugene Braybrock, Jay-Z, and just countless others. And Indrani's work is exhibited in museums worldwide, in the permanent collections of the National Portrait Gallery and the Smithsonian. And over time, she has integrated her love of image making and storytelling with this lifelong passion for service in the name of social justice and impact and expanded from still images to film, including directing the powerful Girl Epidemic documentary about sex trafficking and slavery. And beyond directing, advocacy has really taken a much more central role in her work and life. With positions as the co-host of the Global People's Summit at

the United Nations, the host of New York Live Arts Humanities Symposium, and co-founder and executive director of Shakti Empowerment Education for Women and Children in India. She also lectures at her alma mater, Princeton University, on mobilizing millions with art and film for human rights and social justice. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hit vary. I know you were born in Calcutta, spent the first seven or so years there. And I guess your mom was British, working in service of Mother Teresa when you were a kid. So you were sort of around that

whole ethos at the youngest of ages. Yes, I was part of the volunteering process because I translated for my mom. My dad's Indian and growing up bilingual with a mother who wasn't, it was very essential for her. So from the age that I could translate for her, I did. And so I was very much involved. And at the Home for the Dying, the orphanages, it was a very intense environment, but I saw it as beautiful. I mean, these were, people were my friends and, and I've, I felt very useful, you know, from a very young age, I felt needed. And that was incredibly empowering because I, you know, just having someone to talk to for someone who's going through an end of life experience is incredibly powerful. And particularly being a child, I think I was particularly loved and needed in that situation. So it was very

transformative throughout my life. It's been something that I go back to as those moments when I need to find my better self. I remember that we all have that ability to help on a very fundamental level. Yeah. I mean, to know that from the youngest age and to know from the youngest age that simply your presence can make a difference in someone else's life. I think it's really powerful because I wonder if some of us actually never learned that, you know, let alone later in life, if not ever. Well, it's, it's, it's a lesson that I was fortunate to learn, but I've often forgotten. And, you know, you have to keep reminding yourself that life isn't about what you take or what you get out of it, but what you can be for others, what you can provide. That's where true happiness comes from. And I feel in our culture here, we have it inverted. And that's why people are so many millions who don't have enough, and yet there's a much greater sense of peace, a greater sense of harmony for the most part.

Yeah. I have always been fascinated by that as well. It seems to me that a lot of cultures that focus more on the inner life than the outer life are the ones that seem to, at least from the outside looking in, be able to identify with a greater sense of ease, even in hard circumstances. I don't know if ease is the right word, but a sense of meaning, a sense of value in life and purpose in life around them, even while the outer life may be quite fraught. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the interesting things that I learned from that experience with Mother Teresa, and I got to sit at her feet in Sunday school and run around, I didn't know how important she would be to the world. At the time, she wasn't so famous that in fact there was a documentary that was what caused her to have that global renown and ironically that's part of what I do now is help to amplify stories but my experience with her was interesting because it was often surrounded

with her strengths of character but also conflict because people like my mother, who's a very strong character herself, had different ideas about how things should be done. And so there was a lot of voices raised and tempers running high. And I realized that, anything that you do with great passion, there's going to be tension. So we often think of someone who's trying to do good as being this force of peacefulness and calm, and it isn't necessarily like that. But the results are also complicated of Mother Teresa's work, and I've studied them more in depth as I've grown deeper into my own social justice practice and come to realize that my goals in life are not the same as hers, but we all have to find our own paths to

peace. Yeah. The other thing that occurs to me in that experience is that at a really young age, you're, the experience of impermanence is being normalized, which is something that, again, at any age, especially in Western culture, we don't talk about it. We don't acknowledge it. We pretend it doesn't exist. It's this horrifying thing that it shouldn't be a part of the human condition. And yet here you are at the youngest age, single digits, and it's around you every day. And it seems like you found a sense of peace with that and understanding that it's natural and it's okay, which is kind of astonishing. Well, it's served me very well in my life to have that foundational understanding of impermanence and also the value of suffering in a certain way,

which, and I don't mean that lightly as in, oh, one should be grateful that you have suffering, but there are so many wonderful things that can come of suffering that one doesn't recognize necessarily in the moment, but understanding that context, I think, helps. I often feel that children that grow up insulated from trauma, which is what people tend to want to do, you want to protect your children from those experiences. But then when they come across it, as they must in every life, they don't have the tools to deal with it in the way that they would if they had been able to understand it better from a younger age.

Yeah, so true. I think as a parent, every parent, you ask a parent what they want for their kid and the first word out of their mouth very often is, well, I want them to be happy. But the deeper truth is before any of that, they want them to be happy. But the deeper truth is before any of that, they want them to be safe. But sometimes we conflate safety with safety from anything that might in some way make them not happy, which means that we take any form of adversity out of their experience. And we don't realize that we're also removing the capability to deal with adversity because they never developed those skills and learned them. I think it's such an important idea. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So you're being brought up in this extraordinary environment from the outside looking in, but

I'm guessing for you, this is just your lived experience. This is your life. This is your day to day. It sounds like also you gravitated, I think as so many kids probably growing up in that tradition, to a lot of Indian mythology growing up in India, the culture that had the Indian tradition, we think of as families. Here, we tend to lose touch with people a few generations removed, but there it's a vital part of life. So I got not only my parents' perspectives where they took me to church, to the mosque, to the temple, to each try to have a balanced view. But I also grew up with these amazing festivals. And I remember very keenly, one of my first memories is being in a festival to Durga, who's a goddess with a thousand arms, and she rides on a lion and everyone calls her

mother. And I distinctly remember thinking that she actually was my mother. And the person that I had been born to was sort of just this temporary character. And so, yes, I had a very profound influence on me. Yeah. I mean, when you look at some of those stories and your attraction to them as well, there's some really fascinating foreshadowing, right? In the work that a couple of decades later, really, in the voice that you would find in image making, which is sort of similarly magical and fantastical.

Yes, yes. The creative force that unleashed. Yeah, yeah. What happens at seven that leads the family to get paid properly. There was a lot of issues of people not being properly taken care of, the workers. And in any case, this uprising led to terrible situations where heads of companies were being held hostage by the workers. And it was terrible for the workers because then the police would come in and tear gas. And it was a very destabilized moment in history and my parents just decided that

they wanted me to have a an upbringing with that without that kind of conflict and they were they were very afraid and and they were concerned too that uh that i wouldn't get as good an education there as i could elsewhere. Of course, looking back now, I realize that there's wonderful education to be had everywhere. But certainly in India, for a young woman growing up at the time, it felt like opportunities were less prevalent. So we moved to England and then to Canada, and it was a very destabilizing time for me. I loved my life in India and my life in England was very, very different. So I suddenly, everything was turned upside down for me. Yeah. Well, I mean, you go from knowing the environment and the culture and

having 300 brothers, sisters, cousins, aunties, uncles, you know, like around all the time to then dropping into a place that you don't know. And then, you know, it's just you and like that, that like small family unit, especially at that, at that age, I have to imagine your head was spinning in so many different directions. Yeah, it was very hard. And, and getting to know my mother's family, you know, you grow up with childhood myths of these wonderful people over there. And my mother had a very traumatic childhood and I didn't know that until that point.

And so it was very hard to deal with just the change. I changed completely as a person. I became withdrawn and I ended up hospitalized with something that every time I go to the hospital, it would get better and I'd go home and I'd get sick again. So it was like some kind of traumatic experience for me. So when the family then goes, so I guess it goes from the UK to Toronto then? Yeah. Which Toronto, I don't know about then, but I know Toronto actually has a really substantial Indian community. It does now, but at the time we felt very alone.

We weren't part of the Indian community there. It wasn't a very big community at the time. It's grown dramatically. But yeah, my parents were, they're kind of, I guess they were also shell-shocked by all the changes. You know, they had a very rich life in India and my father couldn't get a job in Canada. He was an accountant due to racism. So it was very surprising.

He went there for a job, but then it quickly went away. And my mother ended up working as an accountant because she's English. And even though she hadn't studied it, she'd bring the work home and my dad would do it. So it was this crazy world where he, although he had all these skills, they weren't valued because of his race. And my mother who had none of the skills was able to get the jobs,

but she had to hide the fact that she was, or she ended up hiring my dad as her assistant. And so she had to hide the fact that they were married or she ended up hiring my dad as her assistant. And so she had to hide the fact that they were married. It was a very complex situation. Yeah. I mean, have you, in hindsight, have you had the opportunity or ever sat down with both of them and sort of asked them about what their real experience was during that sort of season? Yeah. Well, we were very close, so I was very aware of their experiences and I'm actually working on a film so hard for me. But it's got to be fascinating when you have the chance to sort of understand what your parents are going through and see them as human beings

and as partners in life as well and negotiating those agreements. Yeah. Well, that became very complex. And then I had a stepfather who was Jamaican Rastafarian. And so I was raised with him as well and his family. So I had this wonderful multiplicity of influences and I was very close with him. And he suffered from schizophrenia. So that was a lot of very intense experiences, but he was just a wonderful, wonderful human being. So I was very fortunate.

Yeah. I wonder if to a certain extent also the experiences that you describe, again, it's so interesting, like the way that all this mythology starts to foreshadow and the voice that you take on and image making down the road. There's so much chaos. There's so much complexity in your early life. And you've got to figure out a way as a child to navigate it, to be okay with it, to make sense of it in a way that is not unique to the much higher stakes world of image making and filmmaking down the road. I wonder if you have any sense that that was almost like a laboratory or proving ground to help equip you with those skills. Certainly. And I think dealing with mental health issues in one's family, I think teaches one a

great deal as well in terms of how the words you use are interpreted by others, how to help others to find others that you care about, to be in touch with their better selves and yourself as well. So, you know, that complicated sort of negotiation, you mentioned that word before, certainly became a part of my life and became a really useful skill when working with celebrities and actors and artists, bringing people together. It is kind of a mad process. There is this chaos of different opinions and different perspectives, but that's where the magic happens when you can bring them together and find a way to harmonize between them. Yeah. And for the record, we're not saying that all celebrities have mental illness. Not at all. We're just saying there's a lot of struggle and complexity and just a lot of

stuff going on. Absolutely. And that, yeah, the creative spirit is itself conjures a lot of emotions. Indeed it does. When does the impulse to tell stories through imagery or to create images, and I'm guessing you would never have used that language as a kid, but when do you start to become aware of that impulse being something meaningful to you? Oh, I began to be obsessed with photography at about the age of 13. And then at 14, I went to visit various studios because I wanted to intern. I wanted to learn photography properly. And they laughed at me. I was a skinny little Indian girl. And they said, you can't carry stuff. What use are you to us? But luckily, along the way, a couple of them said, well, if you just sit there,

we'll photograph you and you can learn from that if you want. And I said, great, that sounds wonderful. So I started modeling and it was, uh, just getting in the door and getting to learn from these artists and then getting to travel around the world and work with some of the greatest photographers and filmmakers was, uh, was really, really exciting. So this is happening also in your teens. So you go into this place wanting to just learn the craft and they're sort of like, no, be on the other side of the camera. How does that turn into, okay, just local, be on the other side of the camera because we don't think you're capable

of actually helping in the production side of things to modeling. And then how does, I can understand how that happens on a local scale, but it sounds like pretty quickly, this becomes a big thing in your life and becomes a source of, you're going to school, but you're also, you're modeling, you're traveling around the world, you're being paid. This becomes a teenage career for you as well. Yes. Yes. I struggled because I was very short, but I had a great deal of ambition. I didn't think I was particularly attractive. So that was good. And it was my insecurity, I think, which actually helped me to not get too caught up in it. But I did spend many years traveling the world while studying. So I'd go to Tokyo or Milan or both in the summers and then go back to school.

And even during school, I was working. And initially, it was the attraction to learning and also being able to help with my family's financial situation. I went to a private school. They wanted me to have the best education, but they couldn't afford it. And so I'd be brought into the principal's office and told, if your parents are late again, we're going to have to kick you out. And so there were all those financial pressures. And with the mental health aspects as well. I felt very thrilled to be able to help my family. Yeah. As you're doing this, it sounds like you're checking some boxes in terms of

service to the family and helping out, but also it sounds like you're very much a student of the craft, like kind of taking notes on what's happening on the other side of the camera the entire time. Yes, I was. And even with the other side of the camera the entire time. Yes, I was. And even with the modeling, I went to the library and I read every book there was on modeling. I'm a nerd. I still am. And that's sort of the foundational approach. I went to modeling school and I negotiated a class. They gave it to me at a cut rate because I was so convincing that I was like, look, I already know a lot of this stuff. So yes, I definitely took a very serious approach to learning about photography and then filmmaking through that process. And it was an extraordinary experience because what I realized later having many interns myself you

know it's hard for them to learn necessarily when they're off actually doing stuff so I had the experience of just getting to sit there and watch which and and be in the center of the action all the time so I learned a great deal from it yeah I would imagine I mean I would imagine not just about the craft you know like how do you create the shot, but also I have been on many different sets, whether it's, you know, like film or photography and the dynamic on a shoot can be healthy and constructive and productive. And it can also be the exact opposite. And I have seen both ends of the spectrum. And I would imagine that your lens on not just the craft, but just on the human condition was probably taking the culture of the process in as well.

Yes, very much. And I think that being a woman as well, I think I wouldn't have had that opportunity had I not modeled because women typically are not chosen as assistants and they have a hard time getting in the door and getting to experience much of that. the business side of it as well. And, and, uh, and also what it's like being directed by, uh, by someone who has a very, you know, there's often a confrontational kind of approach of the photographer trying to pull something out of you and you're resisting because, you know, uh, and, and so, so I got to learn both what works and what doesn't work from the perspective of the, being the subject of the shoot. Yeah. And it had to be so valuable. We had Mark Mann on the show a little while back, who takes all these iconic, super close-up, super shallow depth of field portraits of many

celebrities. And I remember him sharing that he saw a lot of this same stuff. And one of the things that he loves to do is literally show up with just him, not even an assistant. And he said, you're always trying to figure out, there's a moment that if you're lucky, it happens and you capture it. But so often, that moment was elicited from just real easy storytelling and conversation and creating a really gentle interaction with the person that you're shooting. And so it's so interesting to see how people approach it so differently, but I think all with the same end in mind, they want to create something extraordinary.

Absolutely. Well, there's so many ways to do it. And of course, I think that through my career, I've experimented constantly with different approaches and different ways of of connecting because ultimately i think that you know as a photographer as a as a film director what i'm always looking for is that divine spark within the person the way of of that moment when it's almost like they open up or there's a little crack and you can see something that's profound and true and that connects the viewer to the viewed. There's this moment of magic, a moment of recognition, a moment of truth. Do you know it in the moment when that happens? Sometimes. Well, I've worked so many

different ways. So I had a partner for the first part of my career. Our approach to photography together was we kind of created a distraction for the subject. Our dynamic, we had so much tension between the two of us that that often put people at ease because then the focus wasn't so much on them. So part of what was, uh, what was fun there was sort of allowing the music and fun and dancing and those things to, um, to be sort of a focal point and letting the subjects not feel like they were as much under the gun because we were so busy tearing each other. That's what I came to realize was sort of the method we developed. But as I've been a solo artist, my approach has changed a lot.

And it's, you know, I'm a very calm kind of focused person. And so I think that the nature of the work that I've done has also evolved more. When I worked with David Bowie, a big part of our shoot was talking about the meaning of life and the universe and these theories of whether there are aliens. I mean, we had these beautiful, amazing conversations during the shoot day. And I think that kind of comes through in the images as well. So each shoot is different. Yeah, no, I would imagine. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

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iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him, we need him! y'all need a pilot flight risk we took a bit of a jump here you um fill in just a little bit um you're building on this experience that you had um you end up finishing school um spending these years and then um and you end up at princ spending these years, and you end up at Princeton. But if I have the timing right, before Princeton, you actually take about a six-month photo pilgrimage, you go back to India, and then at the same time, end up starting a school for 300 or so students in this interim window. What was going on there? So, well, as a model, I got to an actress, I got to travel the world and I saved up money along the way. I was, I didn't get lured into all the ways that models often end up disenfranchising themselves because they don't

have a goal. You know, I was always very, very scrupulous. So with the funds that I'd saved, I took my parents back to India. We hadn't been back for over a decade. So that was really exciting, just getting to reconnect. And then I did the six-month pilgrimage around India, taking photos. And it was a spiritual pilgrimage as well. I went to the mountains and looked for Shiva and found all kinds of interesting things. But I also went back to my home where I had this really transformative experience. I arrived with my parents to my home and there were refugees living all over in our family home. So they moved in, in all different parts. And a lot of the family had moved away. It's a very large family home.

It's like palatial ruins. And I was angry when I saw these people and they're like, that's our garden. That's where the roses were. And there's people living there and they're like goats. And at first I wanted to get them out. I was like, this is terrible. We need to rebuild the wall. They've broken the walls. And I had this amazing conversation with my father because I was crying at the same time by seeing how they lived. They were living in such terrible, they had really nothing. They were refugees. Their kids were half starving. I mean, it was a mess, you know. And I was like, well, how can we get them out?

But then where did they go? And at the same time, I also, I wanted to help them. And my father said, you know, if you got them out, you know, what do you think would happen to them? And that really got me thinking about, well, this is all they have. And, and in fact, no, I, I don't need this. You know, they're not, they're not taking something away that's taking away from my ability to survive, but I can't, I can't be okay with the way, you know, that they have no, there's no future for these kids. They're working in the fields and factories if they're lucky.

And so as I traveled around the country and thinking about what could be done, and I just realized just the great need and how fortunate I'd been. I often thought of myself as hard done by, you know, having my family having financial challenges. And then I realized, you know, how fortunate every single one of us in the West is. And even the homeless people have far, far more than the homeless people in the third world. So I really wanted to help.

And I changed my way of looking at them and thought, well, what can we do to serve them and to help them to be able to have a meaningful future and be able to help others too. That became really, really exciting as we built the school. And initially I started on my own as this crazy idea. And I convinced my dad. He had always wanted to give back, but he wasn't ready to come and move there and take care of things. But I couldn't manage it on my own. So he did. He had just recently retired and he did move back to India to run the school.

And he's been running it ever since. I've been the director of the school, and he's on the ground doing the day-to-day. So, yeah, it was very exciting recognizing that the process of learning to help others is what teaches one the most. And so that was a big part of our approach with the kids and then with their mothers as well as teaching them to teach others so that they could learn how to create a better life for themselves. And this is all on the grounds of what was the old family home or was this a different location? Right. So you essentially turn that home, that location into a school and rather than saying, how do we take it back? You're like, well, what if we did the exact opposite?

Yeah, exactly. How do we give it to them fully and make it count, make our efforts have a lasting positive result rather than just leaving the status quo. And then ultimately we ended up actually purchasing another building because with the family, there were a lot of different factions and not everyone was on board with the idea of bringing the poorest of the poor into the home. So initially we started that way and then we moved it to a new building. And in that building, we actually do weddings in the evenings, which helps to fund the school. So it became a self-perpetuating system. Oh, that's great. So your dad ends up staying there, running the school. You come back,

Princeton awaits, studying anthropology, but still shooting the whole time because now at this point, photography is, you know, it's a DNA level impulse for you. Yeah. And actually prior to starting at Princeton, I started my photography career professionally and, uh, and I met Marcus who became my, my partner, um, who was a classical harpist. So we met the year before I started at Princeton and we started doing photography together. We went to Paris and we had a lot of success, success, small things, but we got published in various magazines. And so I had all these years of experience in photography. He had none, but he had bought a bunch of expensive equipment. And I met him two weeks later as he was testing it out on unsuspecting subjects. So that's how we

began our career together. So the harpist who had really cool equipment and the person who has the impulse and the desire and the experience, perfect. Yeah, it was. What could go wrong there? Well, his motivation was meeting beautiful girls, which is the motivation for many, many photographers, I have to say. But yes, so that, you know, I put an end to that as well because we became a couple. And then I did go to Princeton, but I was working full-time the whole time. So going back and forth. Yeah. I'm curious why, I mean, beyond the fact that it's pretty hard to say no once Princeton has said yes, but you kind of know what this thing

is inside that lights your fire. You're doing it. You're succeeding at it professionally. What was the impulse to still say, well, I'm still going to go to college? I've always been very hungry for knowledge. And I have to thank my father, both my parents. They gave me a lot of freedom from a very young age, which is unusual for an Indian family. I traveled the world and they trusted me to do that. But the deal always was that I would eventually come back and go to college. And so I did take off that time and I felt that I had to

follow through. And I studied anthropology at Princeton, which allowed me to go deeper into my fascination with human nature and learning the sort of scientific basis upon which decision making occurs. And it was really fascinating. So I loved it. And my only regret was that I didn't spend more time at Princeton and less time doing the photography at the time. But of course, once you start a career and it was going well, and then David Bowie saw work, and we had all of these surprising things started to happen with it, it kept calling me back. And I spent most of my time doing photography. So it sounds like one of the really big early catalysts, one of the big early inciting moments that sent you in the direction that you've been going for a long time was this connection

with, I guess originally it was Iman and then Bowie. I'm curious, how did they first discover your work? Well, I'd been shooting for a number of different magazines, really underground little magazines in England. And then a makeup artist saw some of the work and it was really crazy, the image. I discovered the digital aspect of photography at that time, I was probably one of the first to really explore all the possibilities of what you could do with photos in the computer. And as we started shooting digitally, it just opened up more and more doors. So my early experiments were putting people on other planets, turning humans into aliens know really playing with those sort of goddess references um so really out there kind of work that fashion magazines were like what is this

they didn't really get it but this makeup artist loved it and showed it to Iman and Iman was working with David Bowie on her book so this was the first book that she created of her life. And it was a retrospective of all this incredible photography. And David was the art director on the book, I believe. The book was called I Am Iman. And they had shot the covers twice with two of the top photographers of our times and rejected them. And they decided that they wanted to try someone new and go for, rather than looking backwards, looking forwards to what was coming next. And that's how I got to do that shoot. And I pulled on my anthropology studies and created Iman as a fire goddess, as an African fire goddess. And so that was really exciting getting to bring

those things together. So walking into that shoot, knowing that you've got Iman and Bowie as your clients and that they had worked with two of the top photographers and rejected them, pressure? Every step of my career, when I've done anything worthwhile, it's been under tremendous pressure. And, you know, growing up in the chaos of Calcutta really prepared me well for that. I think I work best under pressure. Well, clearly you created, you know, an extraordinary image. And it seems like that was also, you know, that was the opening move in you doing a lot of work with various people at super high profiles throughout the entertainment and the music industry, and also taking that same style, that magical realism, that sort of fantasy and saying, let's see how far we can push this.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I think that my studies really did help that. I went deep into mythologies around the world and they always somehow were the refrain that were in the back of my mind whenever I was working with. So it was a fun way to explore human potential and combine the artistry of the person that I was working with, with sort of this older traditions and chain of mental imagery that mythology creates. I mean, it's fascinating to me on so many levels, but you end up working with people who are emerging and at the top of the fields, from Beyonce to Gaga and all these different people who have their own really well-defined, not just brand, but image of like, what is the story that I want to tell? What is my sense of taste? What is my voice? So I'm curious when you bring your background, your sense of anthropology meets fantasy meets realism, and then you're working with people who have such a strong point of view, I would imagine that there is a lot of fire in those interactions that could go either way.

I never had that experience. Really? Yeah. I mean, I keep my fire on the inside. Tell me more about that. I'm very easy to work with. And my approach has always been, let's discuss what it is that you want and how you see yourself. And let's start from there. Let's look at your work. So I would study deeply the work they'd done before, who they were at that point, and create my own projection of where I thought they could go. And while from the outside, it may appear that

these artists have this very strong self-image, that is created in collaboration with the people around them. And so, for example, with Beyonce, when I photographed her first, she was with Destiny's Child, and I photographed the group together. We experimented, we did nice pictures, but we didn't really have the opportunity to take it very far. It was one of those quick shoots. We did some sort of flying through the air kind of ideas. So we did start a little bit on a goddess trajectory. But when I was asked to photograph her solo debut album part, again, it had been photographed by two other photographers at the top of their careers and rejected. And so this theme continued throughout my career and still does. But anyway, it was very interesting because she and her team, they all had very different ideas for her.

Her mother brought these long, elegant gowns. The record label wanted her to be young and hip. And she wanted to, the word she kept talking about was universal, powerful, this idea of dance, you know, bringing that together. And of course, for me, that's a goddess, you know, and then that imagery really came from my tradition. And it was only later that I realized just how much the image that became her Dangerously in Love album cover, that it is exactly a replica of the dancing Shiva, the Natraj image, which I had a beautiful statue of that I brought from India.

So it was something I looked at every day. And recognizing when I put the photo up that somehow we'd recreated that. That was really fun. Ah, that's amazing. Swimming or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations,

iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. At the same time that you're doing this extraordinary work and working with some incredible people, and as you've described yourself, there's a lot of fire internally with you. And I've also heard you describe yourself as

on the quieter side, on the more introverted side. Raising my hand along with you, by the way. And behind the camera, you are the one who is collaborating to create these extraordinary images of other people. And yet you find yourself at a certain point being the focus of a series on Bravo about you. So all of a sudden, you're the subject of the story. You're the one with cameras trailing you as you're out there doing your work. I'm curious how that experience was for you. Oh, that was a very tough experience.

That was definitely one of the hardest experiences of my life because having the camera on me, of course, I had to dress up for many years. I had completely, I dressed in baggy pants and shirts. I didn't want the focus of, and, and, you know, I put out everything I had into making my subjects as magnificent as possible. I didn't want to distract from that by even spending time to think about what I was going to wear. So suddenly we have this show, I had to look good, I had to represent because ultimately that's part of it. You become a subject and you have to think about your audience. And so, so much of the show was constructed and the show actually was my initial idea. I created a pitch, but I was interested in the creative process and I wanted it to be about how a group of people come together to create these identities. And exactly the

question you're asking, how do we create these brands, these icons? So that was the objective. But of course, we didn't have control over the edit and the things that were chosen were otherwise. But that's another story. But it really had to create scenarios. And that's really how my filmmaking career started, was immersing myself in that process, again, from the inside of how do I tell a story that I'm okay with rather than the story that the network, you know, they want drama, they want interpersonal conflict. And we certainly had plenty of that. You got to have your beats.

What is like every 90 seconds or something like that in TV? Yeah. Yeah. And so in order to get anything of meaning into the show, I had to create those scenarios as well. And the shoots, many of the shoots were artificially constructed for the purpose of the show in the sense that they were real shoots, but they probably wouldn't have, we wouldn't have done them if it wasn't for the show because our actual shoots that we were being

paid to do, people didn't want to have those seen because the network refused to give any assurances that they would edit anything out. So Lady Gaga and Kim Kardashian and all of these wonderful people agreed to come on our show and trusted us, even though the networks wouldn't give them any assurances that they'd be kept safe. So we had to negotiate. And part of the reason I wanted to do the show as well as I wanted to bring the audience to India and to the school and to help promote that because it was really important for the school to increase its fundraising. But also I really wanted to inspire young people who are fascinated with celebrities and fascinated with fashion and recognize the beauty of giving back and how important that had been to my life. Yeah. I mean, that's such an interesting bridge to make because we're living in a culture now

that is fame obsessed to a small part. And I remember seeing a study, I think it may have come out of Harvard three, four years ago, where students were asked, would you, upon graduating, actually it wasn't coming out of Harvard, but Harvard was in it, that students were asked, upon graduating, would you rather be the assistant to a famous person, a celebrity, or the president of Harvard? And the assistant won hands down. It wasn't even close. In fact, the winner was to be the assistant to J-Lo. And in fact- That's a hard job. Right. Second to that was being Jesus. So it was a really interesting statement about how fame obsessed we are, not for what we might do with that status for that renown,

but simply for the ability to be that way and to be in that circle of fame. So what makes me is that this was really, you were trying to bridge the gap between being super high profile and then asking the question, well, what do we really do with this? about creating advertising and fashion images. I mean, it was fun to explore creatively, but ultimately it's superficial. And so if it wasn't for my school and needing to provide for those kids, I think I would have gone in a fine art direction much sooner

and spent much more of my time on social justice than I did. But I did come to be able to do that over time, which is really great. And it seems like that moment for you was also a bit of a transition point because this also launches you, it sounds like much more intentionally into filmmaking beyond capturing stills and focusing your lens on really with an activist orientation. So now you're making images and now you're telling stories and now you're capturing scenes, but it's not so much creating fantasy and building up individuals, but now you're telling the stories of profound needs, sometimes profound trauma.

Human trafficking becomes the real focus of your lens and a film. And it sounds like that has remained a growing and growing part of what you're about and why you show up and do the work you do now. But there's an interesting dynamic there, right? Because when you're the filmmaker, you're doing this dance, especially when you're talking about really traumatic situations, but also situations where other people have the ability to help. You're doing this dance of how do I tell the story in a way that invites viewers in, but also doesn't re-traumatize the very people that you're trying to help. I'm curious how that sort of worked in your mind as

you're doing this work. Well, it's really interesting because I jumped in. Some of my first projects were going to Central African Republic to film for the UN with Mandy Moore, a distribution of mosquito nets to fight malaria. That was actually my first commission. So I jumped right into what I really loved because I separated from my partner, Marcus, and I just went for the things that I'd been unable to explore in our partnership together. So yeah, the process was immediate for me. You know, you're jumping right in and no one teaches you. So many filmmakers go out there and they perhaps want to do good, but very often the very process of creating documentary is re-traumatizing the victims. I mean, it's so obvious if you have any compassion, you can see that people don't want to necessarily share their stories. And I've seen filmmakers push people far beyond their comfort zone, push them till they cry. And then that's like, oh, we got the tears.

And that's sort of the goal. The money shot. Exactly. And seeing how that, you know, sure, that filmmaker maybe is going to win an award and make lots of money off of this. But for that individual who then has to go back to their everyday life and now with the fear that their secrets are exposed, you know, a lot of these topics are not only traumatizing for the individual, but certainly for their community as well. And reintegrating them is one of the biggest challenges, certainly in trafficking, but in most areas where people are traumatized. Helping them to overcome it requires so much effort. through doing documentary just how documentaries don't necessarily help. I mean, they can, but it's hit and miss at best. And very often, even a successful documentary can actually make things worse in various ways. So it's complex. And I wanted to really find ways to address the issues without creating harm, but creating good. So one of the ways was reintroducing fantasy, which I'm very passionate about, those myths,

doing scripted films based on real stories, but then taking those elements and bringing actors or even like with the girl epidemic, which was on trafficking. I shot it with kids that are at risk of trafficking, kids who are actually benefiting from the nonprofit that brought me out there to do this film, but having them tell stories that weren't their own stories, you know, it was a level of remove that allowed them to have fun with it and, and be real, they're really familiar with the threats and what it might be like. So there was this realism, but it was a fun cathartic process for them and not in any way harming them. Yeah. I would imagine it's such a delicate dance for anyone who has a heart and a sense of empathy

and also a really interesting experience for you because you clearly have this, you know, like fierce creative impulse and a strong sense of voice and taste. And at the same time, you know, when you're doing something like this, the fundamental question is, you know, like first, am I doing no harm? And then is this in service of that bigger thing that we hope it is? Yes. That's exactly how I make every decision. And not to say that I always make the right decisions, but I certainly try to. I try to think it through and really understand the story before I jump in and create it, which I think that process of studying and research, I use my anthropological methodology to really understand what I'm dealing with. And I learned a lot from

those early experiences where I jumped in without that background. The malaria, mosquito nets, it was quite an eye-opening project because I learned that the peoples that we were there to serve, they had very mixed feelings about the mosquito nets. And as I was interviewing them, I was trying to understand where does this come from? And you talk to the authorities who say, oh, well, they don't understand, you know, they're simple or whatever. And I'm like, no, I don't think that's what it is. And it turned out that they were starving, that malaria, while it does kill huge numbers, most people recover from. So people have malaria time and time again, and they know that there's, you know, they have a chance of surviving, but starvation is not something you can survive. So they were using those nets to fish with and the nets recovered in DDT. So lots of

things that I learned along the way to look at the bigger picture and how really we can help, which is not to say that the mosquito nets are not helpful. They are, they're wonderful, but there's so much more that's needed in each of these situations. Yeah. There's a level of nuance and complexity that sort of may not show itself on the surface. As you transition and make this a lot of the focus of your work and you're in these situations, I've had a number of friends and spoken to many people who in some way, shape or form were involved with NGOs and they were on the ground or aid workers, or even people who were in the media covering that for extended periods of time. And I know

it can be really hard on you psychologically and emotionally also. I'm wondering how you just personally,'s kind of an armor that I put on each day, connecting to the source and reminding myself of the reasons why I'm there and how fortunate I am to be able to be on the side of helping, trying to make things better. So I view each of these opportunities as an extraordinary chance to be useful. And so I think that I have a huge amount of empathy that's always driven me. And that's been how I've connected with the celebrities. And that's how I connect with survivors. And I don't really see any difference between them. I recognize how lucky I am to be able to learn from people who have had these traumatic experiences.

Each of them has taught me so much. And so I go as a student, as someone who wants to learn what could be done to help them and also trying to have compassion for for all in the process which is which is hard because i do get really angry at the perpetrators and that's being a big process for me is making peace with with all the characters in any given situation it's very easy to go in looking for justice and looking for retribution and those kinds of things. And while justice is incredibly important, a lot of times just helping people to survive, for me, takes precedence. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know you were certainly a student at Princeton, but you also, at a certain point, were the teaching ad as well. Tell me a little about this. Well, over the years, I've worked with many different nonprofits, and that's been really rewarding.

And I've worked on films that aim to help people to find their higher selves. And what I came to realize is that direct conversations with students can be even more impactful. And as much as through film and through non-profits one can help, there is so much power in the one-on-one conversations that you have as a teacher. And through my school in India, directing that, seeing how those kids really thrive when given direction that motivates them, I was really drawn to speaking. And so I, even though I was really shy, I overcame that. I worked really hard to be able to articulate myself through words instead of just through images. And then I was visiting lecture at

Princeton on mobilizing millions with art and film for social justice and human rights, which is my passion. And that was an extraordinary experience. And I'm continuing to teach now. So I certainly still prioritize creating in the world, but I balance that with teaching directly. And I had the privilege of being the organizer and host of the Art of Anti-Racism and Social Justice at Princeton, which was bringing together speakers and artists from various different backgrounds to talk about how we can use art to fight racism and to promote social justice. Yeah, that sounds amazing.

It feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So hanging out in this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think to live a good life is about finding oneness with others, finding that divine spark that connects us all and finding ways in which that connection can drive you to being your best self. So when you see someone suffering, that connection that you have to them is what allows you to have the ability to help. And it's a divine blessing to be in the position to be able to help

others. So recognizing that for what it is, that to me is the source of the greatest joy and goodness in the world. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link

in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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