Good Life Project - Janine Kwoh | Saying Yes to the Call to Create

Episode Date: February 3, 2022

Ever look at someone who has made an astonishing change in career, leaving behind what seemed like a dream career, from the outside looking in, to start something new that makes them so alive and think, “wow, I’d love to do that, too?” Well, you’re not alone. And this week’s guest, Janine Kwoh, shares how and why she left behind the world of private equity and venture philanthropy to follow her heart into the world of art, creativity, and tapping a very old, very physical printing technology to share images and words that give feeling and emotion to the experiences that are often so hard to share.Janine is now the owner, artist, and entrepreneur behind Kwohtations, a creative studio that offers cards, prints and an array of gifts that reflect and celebrate a diversity of identities and life experiences, as a way to reflect on and honor the lives we actually lead, versus the ones we think we should. Topics range from navigating love and loss, (re)defining family and success, and figuring out what it means to show up honestly and openly in life. In fact, it was the loss of her partner in life at the age of 28 that both dropped her into the experience of grief and also awakened her to a sense of imperative to do what made her truly come alive. What began as a side passion led to sharing her work and eventually grew into her full-time devotion. And, Janine’s lens on grief, in particular, and the way she shares it through her art, led to a deeply meaningful body-of-work that’s seeded her new book, Welcome to the Grief Club: Because You Don't Have to Go Through It Alone, which she offers not as a how-to manual, but more of an offering to let you know, you’re not alone.You can find Janine at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the earlier conversation we had with Lisa Congdon about coming to art later in life.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I don't know. I just didn't think it was possible. I kind of dismissed it as like, oh, wouldn't it be great if I could just make art for a living? A lot of my friends bought my cards, but I remember the first time someone I didn't know bought a card and I was like, huh, maybe someone who doesn't love me already would want to buy my art. So ever look at someone who's made an astonishing changing career, leaving behind what seemed like a dream career from the outside looking in at least, to start something new that makes them so alive and think, wow, I would love to do that too. Well, you're not alone. And this week's guest, Janine Kuo, shares how and why she left behind the world of private equity and venture philanthropy

to follow her heart into the world of art and and venture philanthropy to follow her heart into the world of art and creativity, tapping a very old, very physical printing technology to share images and words that give feeling and emotion to the experiences that we all have, but are often so hard to share and often doing it with a sense of humor. So Janine is now the owner and artist and entrepreneur behind Quotations, a creative studio that offers cards and prints and an array of gifts that reflect and celebrate a diversity of identities and life experiences as a way to really reflect on and honor the lives we actually lead versus the ones we think we should. Topics range from navigating love and loss,

redefining family and success, and figuring out what it means to show up honestly and openly in life. In fact, it was the loss of her partner in life at the age of 28 that both dropped her into the experience of grief and also awakened her to this sense of impermanence and imperative to do what made her truly come alive. And what began as a side passion, it led to sharing her work and eventually grew into her full-time devotion and Janine's lens on grief in particular. And the way that she shares it through her art, it led to a deeply meaningful body of work that has seeded her new book, Welcome to the Grief Club, which she offers not as a how-to manual,

but more of an offering to let you know you're not alone. We dive into this entire journey in today's conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So good to be having this conversation with you. As we have this conversation, I'm in Boulder, you're in Brooklyn. You are not, though, Brooklyn born.

It sounds like, from what I know, you were actually born on the other side of the country in the Bay Area. But it also sounds like you bounced around a lot internationally as a kid. Yeah. So I was born in San Francisco, but my family is Chinese and we moved to Shanghai when I was young. So I actually grew up for the most part in Shanghai in the expat community there and came back to the States for college. How old were you when you moved? I was seven or eight. So you had started your life in the first seven or eight years of your life in San Francisco area, and then you find yourself moving to Shanghai. I'm so curious, what's that like for you as a seven or eight year old kid? It was really confusing. I just remember thinking,

wow, this whole country is like a big Chinatown and everyone looks like me. And I actually, I went to international school because English was my primary language. And so I went to school with kids from all over the world. And for the most part, people cycled in and out every one or two years. So it was a really interesting experience that I don't think I really appreciated till after I left. So you said it was when you got there, everyone looked like you also. I'm always curious, especially as a seven or eight year old kid, was that something that you were immediately aware of that was very different from growing up in San Francisco area? Yeah, definitely. Although I think it was a shock to me when I first

moved there. And then I think I kind of quickly adjusted. And actually, when I moved back to the States, it felt like a bigger adjustment to me to be in a place where my race or my ethnicity was the first thing that someone noticed about me. I'm curious how that came up in terms of when you say it was the first thing that they noticed. Was it something that was said? Was it more subtle cues? How did you experience that? It was both, actually. I think, as is the experience of a lot of other Asians and Asian Americans here, people say things to me on the street, and that was actually probably one of the first or more jarring experiences I had, asking you where you're from, or just saying, you know,

ni hao or k'in ch'i wa to you, without really much more of an introduction. And then I think, you know, more subtly, there are some assumptions that people make about you, about your family, about where you're from, about what you're good at or not, that sort of come out in different ways, even if it's not explicitly said.

How did that land with you? I was really surprised. I was really shocked. And I don't think that I had really grappled with what it meant to be Chinese or to be Asian before that point, and also what it meant to be Asian in America. And so that kind of, I think I became much more aware of my ethnicity and then became in some ways, I think, more politicized about it, about the stereotypes around Asian Americans and trying to raise awareness about speaking about my experiences and others. So when you finally come to the U.S. or come back to the U.S. It sounds like that was for college at that point. And you end up in school studying business and economics. Tell me what's going on in your head

when you make that choice. I had no idea what I wanted to do is really what was behind that choice. I had no idea. And so I just sort of defaulted to what I thought would be the most practical choice, which was business economics. And I chose business economics because I didn't have to do a lot of math for that. It really was just, I thought if I didn't know what to do, at least I should do something in which I could graduate and find a job. It's really my thinking. Yeah. Did you have a sense when you were doing that, that there was, you would sort of like build your life and your career in, in the world of business when you graduated? Or was it just sort of like, let me check this box for the moment and then we'll

see what happens after. It was really that, I, you know, I've never really had a plan more than a year in advance. So it was really, let me do this and see what comes next. Because I also just really didn't have any idea of what kind of jobs were out there. Right. So you're coming into the job market around when? 2009. So during the recession. Wow. Yeah. So, which makes it even more interesting, right? Because you then come out of school in what was, until recently, the darkest hour in the economy since the Great Depression.

And then you go into the world of essentially finance and investments. I'm curious how that ends up happening, especially at a time where it looks like that entire field is kind of crumbling before us. Yeah, I fell into it. I ended up doing research on private equity funds and I had no idea what private equity was and I had no idea what that world was like, but I just, I went on every interview that I could get and I got that job. And so I went and it really was a world that I had never been in. It's kind of, I don't know, maybe what you would expect. It's a very privileged, white, male-dominated, sort of aggressive world. And I had a really great team and I learned a lot, but I had a really hard time sort of navigating that whole industry.

It's interesting. You and I have some really interesting parallels that I think will unfold during the conversation. But as a private equity lawyer for a hot minute in a large firm in New York City, so I know that world beyond what we see depicted on TV. And it's bizarre. I mean, beyond the fact that, yes, it's white, it's male, it's privileged, the sense of money just becomes so warped, you know, and you really lose touch, I think, with really basic human values. And not everybody, like can't make a sweeping, but I found myself just personally really getting caught up in that in a way that was unhealthy. I'm curious whether you, what your experience with certainly the values in that industry were. I struggled with that a lot. And I think part of it was because they were so different from mine. And I felt like in order to really belong, in order to thrive, I had to change my values to fit in. And it was just something that I, you know, I stayed for three years because I felt like it was such a good opportunity. It was such a good job.

It was an opportunity that I never thought I would have. And then I thought that if I closed the door on it, it would never be open to me again. And so I really tried to shape myself. I couldn't do it. And it's not because the job I think is inherently bad. I think it's just wasn't a good fit for me. And it took me a while to come to terms with that and to to really internalize and be okay with that fact before I could move on. Yeah. So when you make the decision to move on from that, what's important to you in that next move? The private equity job was really intellectually rigorous. It was a really challenging job. And I realized that that wasn't enough for me. I needed something that was personally meaningful to me to want to go to work every day and to make that work worth it to me. And so I ended up

leaving and working at a nonprofit that helps, you know, scale up and improve other nonprofit programs. So sounds like you're, you know, you end up going over there. That ends up being a much longer thing for you. At the same time, something's brewing on the side. Tell me about how this magical thing starts to pop up. So I started making greeting cards, actually, while I was still working in private equity on the side. And it really was, I think I just needed a creative outlet. My job was so rigorous and analytical that I just needed something else and like something else that was mine on the side. So I started making cards. Again, I just sort of fell into it. I was talking with one of my best friends, Amy, about greeting cards randomly and how someone should make cards for all these

occasions that we have that no one talks about or we don't have cards for. So I just started making those cards really just for me and my friends. And I just kept making them. And even after I moved over to the nonprofit, I was making cards. And then I started selling them at craft fairs on the weekends and I started selling them into stores and it just, I don't really think I had a plan for it. I just kept doing it and it kept kind of evolving on its own, on its side, aside from my full-time job. So you didn't just start making cards though, because a lot of people could just, you know, go to the local shop, buy some paper, buy some markers or whatever it was.

You chose letterpress as sort of like your primary creative outlet. And I've had some experience with letterpress. In fact, I learned to letterpress at the arm, which is, I think, where you do a lot of your work, right. That's where I print all of my cards. That's amazing. Which is this awesome little letterpress print shop in Brooklyn. That's sort of like local culture, you know, like a beloved place. But explain a little bit for those who don't understand what the letterpress process is, because this is really interesting and unique and archaic in a lot of ways, but there's something so powerful and visceral and physical about the process that's really different about a lot of other creative processes. Yeah. So letterpress, essentially,

there are these old, huge printing presses and the design that you want to print is slightly raised and then you ink the rollers and you roll the rollers in the paper over it. So whatever design is raised gets sort of inked and pressed into the paper. And you do this one sheet of paper at a time. So like one card at a time. So that's how I print all of my cards.

It's like a very sort of manual, very labor-intensive process. I love it. I think, you know, so much of what we do now is in front of a screen, and it's really nice to have something tangible to make and something tangible to hold. And for me, it's kind of, it's become where the place where I can achieve a sort of flow state or like meditative state because it's, you know, it's like repetitive enough, but also you kind of have to stay focused because you're operating this huge piece of machinery. So you're kind of like in that nice in between state and I just can stand there and print for hours and hours and I love it. It's like a really critical part of my week. There's something so visceral about it. I agree. And these are like a lot of the presses are from the 1950s, you know, and there's these massive things and with like the clunking noises

and all that, that's then you have to constantly like re-ink and all this stuff. The thought, it's interesting, right? Because the thought that it becomes this meditative process, because I think a lot of people think about meditation as I'm going to sit on a mat, I'm going to clear my mind or think about my breath. But this is a physicalized process that becomes a deep meditation in a way that I think so many of us, I get the feeling so many of us miss from our lives, but we don't realize we're missing it. Did you have that sense too? I did. I am a very anxious person. I just carry a lot of anxiety around with me and meditation is something that I've tried to do on and off, kind of as you described it, like sitting by yourself in silence. And I have a really hard time being alone with my own thoughts. And so

I usually have music or TV or a podcast on. And it really wasn't until I started printing that I was like, I think that this is what people are talking about when they're talking about a flow state or meditation. And it's been really great for me. And it was a really great realization that it can look really different for a lot of people. It's not like my form of meditation can look really different for a lot of people. It's not, you know, like my form of meditation can look really different from someone else's. Yeah, which also kind of makes you want to keep going back because it's a meditation

and then there's this awesome creative output on the other side. So it's a meditation that yields something beautiful or interesting or sometimes awful or disastrous, like a lot of mistakes along the way too. Yeah, definitely. disastrous like a lot of mistakes along the way too yeah definitely mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk

the apple watch series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Tell me about, because it's also, there's a real learning process with that too. I'm curious how you sort of really start to develop the craft of printing. Yeah. So I actually, when I first started making cards, I didn't know how to letter press and I was carving characters out of linoleum. So I was block printing them and then sort of individually stamping the letters on the card.

And I met this woman, Jen, who's also now one of my closest friends at a craft fair. And she was part of a letterpress studio. And she was like, you should look into letterpress because it still keeps that sort of handmade process, but it's a little bit less labor intensive than individually stamping every letter on the card. And so I ended up taking a weekend class at a letterpress studio in Boston, and then just renting time at her studio. It was really just how I learned, just getting on the press and having people around to help me when I got in trouble. But it was a real lesson. Even learning how to letterpress was a real lesson in going slowly, because there's really no way to rush the process, and there's no way to rush

the learning process. You just kind of have to print and eventually something will go wrong because they're like these old machines. And then once you hit a problem, then you're like, okay, now what? And that's sort of just like how you learn. And for me, it was a real, again, like I'm someone who's like usually doing two things at once. And it was just a really good practice and just like printing one card at a time, waiting till you like hit a problem, solving that problem, going back, adjusting, and then printing again, which I think is really relevant in a lot of other parts of life too. Especially now, right? I think now we all need something, some outlet

like that where we can kind of like, it focuses our mind, but there's this process and getting our body involved, I think is so powerful. Also, when you're starting to do this, were you doing it in the beginning just as kind of like a fun side hobby and then, you know, that you got drawn into the process and the craft without any intention of this ever becoming something bigger than that? Or did you always have in the back of your mind, huh, like this is going to lead to something else? I had it in the back of my mind, but more as a what if, not really as an actual goal or an actual step that I thought that I would take. It just, it didn't seem, I don't know, I just didn't think it was possible.

I kind of dismissed it as like, oh, wouldn't it be great if I could just make art for a living? It didn't seem possible, but I did definitely dream about it and think about it and wonder what it would be like. When you start printing and at some point you make a decision to start sharing what you're doing and posting it. I think in the early days you started on Etsy. I'm curious what happens in your mind that says, okay, it's time. It's time to share this. It's time to maybe see if somebody else would like this. It's time to maybe see if somebody else would like this. It's time to maybe see if somebody else would pay for this. Yeah. I remember going to a craft show and seeing someone there selling cards. And that for me, it just, that's all it took. It took like seeing one person doing

something similar. And I was like, huh, I could do that. Like I could get a table and a tent and set up in a parking lot and see what happens. And so, yeah, I started on craft at craft fairs and then I put my cards on Etsy because it was pretty easy to set up an Etsy shop. And I just thought like, huh, let's see what happens. And a lot of my friends bought my cards, but I remember the first time someone I didn't know bought a card. Like I remember that moment. And again, it just took one person buying the card. And I was like, huh, maybe someone who doesn't love me already would want to buy my art. And that's kind of just how it happened. And then I pitched my products to a store and they said, yes. And I said, huh, well, you know, there's one store out there that wants my cards. Maybe

there are others. So it was a very sort of, I don't know, gradual realization of what I could do with my cards and who else might want them. So as the world is starting to say, or like your world, or one or two people here in the world, one shop owner here, one person whose email address you don't recognize is saying yes. And you start to think to yourself, well, maybe this could be something bigger. What's happening in your mind also on the side of, well, if this could be a business, you know, like, cause you, you, you have all this, you know, you have education, you have experience in the world of business, you know, entirely different, but are you starting to think at that point?

Well, well then, you know, if it's not just something which is joyful and meditative for me and a creative act, but it's something where I'm putting it into the world and maybe this is going to become something bigger. What do I want it to be? What do I want it to say? Who do I want it to speak to? Are you starting to think through all of these different things on another level at that point? I am. The cards ended up being a lot more meaningful to me than I initially thought that they would be. Like I said, initially, I thought that they would be a creative outlet and I was sort of making sort of funny cards for everyday occasions. And then as things started to happen in my life and I started to make them into cards,

I realized how important of an outlet it was for me. You know, I am really introverted. I'm really quiet. I have a hard time speaking up verbally often. It's a lot easier for me to write down my thoughts and write down my perspectives. And so the card sort of became what I kind of think of as my soapbox for, you know, what I think is important, what are the important messages that I want other people to hear. And that's definitely not something that I anticipated it to be, but it's what it's become. I mean, so a lot of the cards are, they're kind of funny. They're, they're snarky. You've got definitely, there's a lot of New York in those cards and what's become more than cards now also. So I'm curious, as somebody who feels you're more introverted, more quiet,

when you start putting into the world graphic representations and words and cards and things like this that maybe show a side of yourself which you're not super comfortable sharing in conversation, did those who knew you, when they start to see the art and the phrases and the ideas that you were putting into the world, well, two things, I guess. Were you comfortable doing that? And did people who knew you already and then saw what you were putting into your art and

offering the world, I'm curious what their reaction was. I think the people who know me really well were not surprised because I think I'm more like me on my cards when I'm around them. That's like the true me. I think, you know, some of my personally can be, I don't know, a little bit more reserved in person. But with my cards, I kind of just like put it all out there. In terms of if I'm comfortable, I think that's something that I'm still figuring out. I think that, I think what I struggle with is I personally think it's better when we just put our stuff out there because then we feel less alone because other people inevitably feel the same way or similarly. And they then feel less alone because they know that's how you feel.

And I just think that's like a good virtual cycle to get into. At the same time, I think putting my sort of personal thoughts and feelings and experiences out in the world on cards and also on social media has been hard in some ways. It's been really wonderful and I've built a really good community, but it's been tough because I think people know things about you, even if you don't necessarily know them, which can be kind of a weird feeling. And also, I think people share a lot of their stories with me and I feel a lot of responsibility with that in terms of responding to them and being there for them also, even if we don't necessarily know each other in person. Yeah. No, I could imagine that. I feel like great art, whether it's on a card, whether it's hanging on a wall, whether it's something you listen to, it does that. It lands with other people and in some way they feel connected to the creator, even if they don't know the real story behind it, there's something. But yeah, I wonder if sometimes it crosses a line where you feel such a deep affinity to the person who created something that moves you so deeply.

I know I felt that about, you know, like musicians in particular, that you assume you know the story and you assume you know the full emotions, but so often art is sort of like, and I guess that's part of my curiosity and what you were speaking to, like, like where's the line between what you share and what you don't share. And, um, and the closer you get to just sharing it all, I think the more it really resonates deeply with people, but it also creates this transference or it has a potential to create a level of transference that can be, especially for someone who's quieter, more introverted, really uncomfortable because when you step more into the public domain. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely feel that. And I'm, like I said, I'm still trying to figure out where my boundaries are and when I'm comfortable sharing or like what I just want to keep for myself and the people who know me best. So this is all happening on the side. So you're like, there's a, this window, there's a season where you've got your full-time job, you're doing the thing, and you're building this on the side. You give it this fantastic name, Quotations, which is this play on your last name. And it's building and people are responding it. You're having this powerful creative outlet and making a difference and starting to build

the business. And in the middle of this, so this is, you start into around 2011. Then we get to, you're doing this dance and then you experience this really profound personal loss in the middle of this, the loss of somebody who was your first love. Tell me how this affects everything that you're doing. I mean, how can it not, right? Yeah. So my partner at the time, Nap, he died in 2016 when we were both 28. And it just, it turned my life around. It turned my world around. He was, you know, the first person that I really loved who died. I was, you know, one of a few people in my peer group that I knew who had had a significant loss. The only person I knew who had lost a partner. And the experience of his death and my grief

was just so much harder and longer and more complicated than anything I had experienced or could have imagined that I would feel. And in terms of how that affected my work and the business, I ended up quitting my job and pursuing art full time. And that was a decision that was both fast and slow. So slow in that, like we talked about, it had been in the back of my head, but I thought, oh, wouldn't it be possible? Or, you know, what would I do without health insurance? And it's so scary. And then after he died, I just felt like the things that were scary to me before just weren't scary anymore. Like your whole baseline for like what is in the realm of okay changes, at least that was my experience. And I thought, you know, I liked my job. It was fine. But suddenly, fine just wasn't cutting it anymore. I just wanted to do something that brought me more meaning and more joy. It just seemed like I felt more of an urgency around that. So at the same time, it's affecting the way that you think about, well, this is my central

devotion. I want it to give me so much more, but you're also processing really, really deep trauma and grief, which can make it incredibly hard to, I mean, on some days get out of bed on some days to make really big decisions. So just personally, when, when you're moving through this experience, this sort of like deep season, which I don't think ever leaves anyone. It changes over time, but it just becomes a part of you. When you make that decision to say, okay, I'm going to literally leave behind a decade long career doing this thing to do this other thing. I know you say it's sort of like a clarified, it made a lot easier to do.

But taking actually making decisions in general, when you're in that space can be so brutally hard. I'm curious just on a personal level, what it was like for you. You were in a space of deep trauma, deep grief, and also making decisions to make really big changes in your life simultaneously. You know, they say you shouldn't make any big decisions. I don't know, that first year. And I feel like I did all the things you're not supposed to do. You know, I quit my job. I was living in Boston. I moved to New York just to be closer to friends. I got a tattoo. I made all these big life decisions. And I do think that grief, like grief brain makes it really

hard to do things. It makes it really hard to make little decisions. But in some ways, I feel like those big decisions were a lot easier for me to make in that first year because I think I would have overthought it. But for me, it just seemed in that moment so clear. Like I was so sad and stuck. I needed to be near friends. I needed to do something different in the hopes that it would help. So I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't say it was easy, but in some ways it seemed like an easier decision at the time than I think I would have if that hadn't happened. If it was just a regular year, I think I would have gotten caught up in a lot of other things. Yeah. I mean, art making had been something that was, as you described, the meditation to you,

and now you're saying yes to making it a business. When you're processing the grief that you're going through, does it also become something else for you? I'm curious how the creative process for you either did or didn't become a part of your moving through grief. Definitely. It was such an integral part of it. And again, I didn't necessarily think that it would be, but it became that way. So I started making sympathy cards and it was because I had gotten a lot of sympathy cards and there are a lot of really bad sympathy cards out there. One. And two, the ones that I did get and people had, sort of as an anchor. And I wanted to make cards that helped other people sort of reach out in hard times. And so the cards that I wrote weren't really platitudes, but they were what I needed to hear at the time, like really honest, but also comforting like words of validation and affirmation. So the first card I wrote was permission to grieve, which is basically like a permission slip for whatever it is you're feeling, how it is you want to do,

like, that's okay. You have permission to grieve in whichever ways and for however long you need to, which is something that I really needed to hear and took me a long time to internalize. And so I think just that process, again, of putting my thoughts and emotions to paper and sort of talking to myself as I would if I were my own friend was really helpful for me to just hear what I needed to hear as if it was from somebody else. Yeah, that's so interesting. So it's like you tap the creative process to give language to what other people, like what you wished other people were saying to you along the way. And then clearly, you know, as you're sharing that with the world,

it's resonating with other people because people start saying yes, like to all of these different things that you're putting into the world. Was that surprising to you or expected, or did you have any expectations about how those messages, how that art in particular would land when you shared it? I was surprised because grief to me has been, you know, I have a really, really wonderful support network, but it has been such an isolating and lonely experience for me. And, you know, it was my first time having a significant loss. I feel like very few people, like we don't really talk about it and we don't really talk

about it honestly. So it felt like I was the only one going through this or the only one feeling this way. And that like my grief was extra complicated or I was like taking it extra hard. I don't know. But then when I started, you know, writing about my experiences and what they were like and putting them out, so I didn't know how others would respond. And so I was surprised when everyone was like, oh, me too. Like that's how it, you know, that's how it feels for me or parts of that or how it feels for me. And so I was surprised and really comforted by that fact. So it's almost like telling you that there are other people. I mean, it sounds like you had your

own community of people that were close to you that support you, but it sounds like that experience also shared that there were so many other people out there going through something similar and maybe also not having language for it the same way that you were seeing people who were trying to probably love you and support you weren't doing it in a way that felt like it was actually loving and supporting in a lot of ways, even though that wasn't their intention. I think it's just so hard to know what to do. I mean, looking back on how before Nap died, I know that I definitely erred on the side of not saying anything because I didn't want that person to be sad or I didn't want to say the wrong thing. Or honestly, I just didn't want to be uncomfortable.

And even after he died, you know, I'm much more likely to say something because I know how it feels to be on the other end. But I still mess up. I still don't know what to say because it's just I feel like these are situations where there is no perfect thing to say or no perfect thing to do. And that's that can be a hard realization if you're trying to help. But I also what I think is what I realize is sometimes just saying anything or just being there is what is the most important. It's not exactly what what you're going through a part of the art that you're offering publicly, you had been sharing things that were personal on a certain level before that. But this is a whole different level. I'm curious whether it was even a conversation in

your head to say, well, is this something that I go through? Have we crossed a line where this is now something I need to take care of privately just with my family and friends? Or do I actually make this a part of what's happening publicly? Because that's a whole different level of exposure. Yeah. I think initially when I was making and writing, I wasn't thinking about that at all. It just felt like I needed to get it out there. Like I just needed to say it. I needed to keep saying it and I need to keep making things about it. And I wasn't thinking about like down the road what this would mean or like what does it mean now that it's out there? I just like needed to create. And then I think a little bit further down, I was like,

oh wow, I've really, I put all this out there and I can't, I can't take it back. So I have thought more recently about some of the, like, you know, things that I'd want to keep. So, like our relationship, I keep private. Most of my relationships, I don't like work out in public. I keep those private, but I'm very public about my emotions and like my own experiences. So I think that's sort of a line that I've, I've drawn, but I do, you know, sometimes I think like this is a level of exposure and, and visibility that I, I don't know, like, I don't know if I'll regret honestly one day, but I do think that, you know, the fact that every time I put something out, I do get responses back from

people saying, you know, that they feel the same way or they feel seen or they feel heard like that to me is kind of why I keep doing it. It makes it feel worth it. Yeah. I mean, I have to imagine it's gotta be really interesting to do the dance between honoring the creative impulse, you know, like now this is a full-time business that also has to sustain you. So like there's an expectation that like there are things that you're going to say and creative works that you're going to offer. And at the same time, being personally okay. And understanding that somewhere in there have to be boundaries for you to be able to breathe every day, for you to be able to wake up and sort of like just be personally, emotionally,

physically and psychologically okay. And it's got to be a really interesting dance to kind of say, like, where is that line on any given day? It is. I'm still trying to figure out where that line is. I think that line honestly changes for me day to day, depending on how I'm feeling. I think sometimes creating and sharing and interacting with all the people online, I find really energizing. And it's been one of the things that has helped me feel connected through the pandemic. And other times, honestly, I find it draining, this sort of need or perceived need to keep creating and to keep sharing, to stay relevant, to stay on the top of people's minds.

I find hard, especially during the pandemic, where sometimes I don't really feel like I have anything to share or I'm just tired. Don't feel like sharing. Yeah. And I think that's so common, right? With people who, when you start something as a, like initially as a, as a creative expression, and then it becomes a business and it's kind of at the hobby level where you can kind of do it if you want and not do it. But then when it becomes your, your living, it's like the dynamic changes, you know, and then it's part of it is that you're creating, you know, you have to create something that's true to you, but also in the back of your mind, you're asking yourself, but will people buy it? And then it's like that, there's that other part that you described where it's like, but what about the days or weeks or maybe even months where you just don't feel like doing it? And yet you've now built this structure that says,

if I don't do it, I might not be able to pay my rent. It is such a difficult dance, I think, for so many people in similar situations. Yeah, definitely. The way I think about it, it's sort of a Venn diagram of everything that I would like to make or things that resonate with me. And then the other circle is things that I think people will buy because it is a business. And then sort of what's in the middle there that I feel really good about putting out in the world and also I think other people will want. And it's hard, you know, when I was doing this as a hobby, I would just make things whenever I felt inspired. And if I didn't, then I wouldn't have to make anything. And now it's like, you know, two or three times a year, I might be able to time to make 12 products again. And, you know, on one hand, I do think it does take some of the freedom out of it because you're trying to think about like what is like a commercial value of something not just what

you want to make on the other hand I do think that it has pushed me you know usually I'm like I don't know what to make like I've made everything I could possibly make I've said everything I could possibly say there's nothing left everything I could possibly say. There's nothing left in me. And that's usually where I would have stopped. But now that I can't, I find myself, I have to push past that point. And once I do, there's usually something on the other side that I can find that I feel really good about making that I probably wouldn't have gotten to if I didn't have to. Oh, that's so interesting. So it's like the expectation that you will continue to create new things and offer new

things. It almost, it forces you to work past the point where you would have just sort of like said, I'm going to step away, take a break right now. And it sounds like that's the point where you push past that, where some cool new, interesting, different stuff comes out. Yeah, definitely. If I were still doing this on the side, I don't think that I would push past or push as hard as I've done. Yeah. There's an interesting, as you were saying that part of what was happening in my head was in the process of brainstorming, it's commonly known

there's sort of like these three stages. The first round of ideas are really obvious and generally pretty bad. And the second round of ideas are really obvious and generally pretty bad. And the second round of ideas are more nuanced and kind of like interesting. And maybe there's some cool stuff in there. And usually it starts to get a lot harder to come up with cool new ideas. So people tap out after that sort of like second wave of idea. They're just like, this is the best I got. But it's the third wave after that where it actually gets really thorny and you don't want to show up and you don't want to do work where all the really cool, best, new, innovative ideas

happen. But so few people push there that they don't experience what it's like to actually be in the domain of creating that next generation of ideas and creative output. But I found that that's often where so much of the magic happens. But there's got to be some kind of structure to push you there because most of us don't go there naturally. It's just too annoying or too stressful or too much effort. So it's interesting that it's like the business structure that you created has made you go to that space on a regular basis now. Yeah. It's not something that I anticipated. And I do think it is, like you were saying, like, I don't think I would have done it otherwise, because I didn't have to, I had a job. And also because it's hard. I feel like a lot of the things on my cards or my art, I have to sort of look at parts of myself that I think are hard. We're like, oh, I don't want to make a card about that. I don't want to think about that. But then like, no, I have to make something. Let me,

let me really think about what I want to make. And let me think about the things I've been struggling with. Let me think about the things I've been, the questions I've been having about my own life and sort of how do I take those and turn them into art? But that's an uncomfortable process. And so I so I don't think that I would have done it otherwise. It's interesting because the way you describe it now, also, there's another layer, especially because of the art that you make, which is that it's almost like you're going into a deeper layer of therapy for yourself in order to get to the place where you're creating something at a deeper level to then offer and share to other people. So that's a whole nother sort of like realm of potential resistance that

gets folded into it. Cause you're like, Oh, I need to process my experiences and emotions in a way that maybe I haven't gone there. Maybe I'm not entirely sure I want to go there today. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I say my quotations is kind of like my life in cards. And, you know, I think if you look at every card, you know, I want them to be accessible and resonant for a lot of people, but there's a lot of myself and a lot of my life and my experiences embedded into each one. So yeah, I guess each one is like a little therapy session. Right. Which probably is one of the reasons why it resonates so deeply with so many people. I mean, another element of your work also, and I'm curious, I imagine this is really

intentional for you, is representation. And I'm wondering, was that sort of like a central value that you want to bring to the work and everything that you create? And when did that, if so, when does that actually become a part of what you're devoting yourself to beyond sort of understanding the conversation in somebody's head and giving language to it? It is really intentional. So a lot of my cards and art sort of celebrate or represent a lot of different life experiences and identities. And I think it's really important because, you know, we send greeting cards for occasions and to people that we deem important or significant, right? So birthdays, weddings, Mother's Day, Father's Day, Valentine's Day.

And I think a lot of our lives don't fit into those specific occasions, right? Or those specific structures. So I think a lot about, you know, like who is not represented, who's feeling left out, whose experiences don't slot into these categories that we've created. So for example, Mother's Day, Father's Day, I have cards for chosen families. I have a thanks for raising me card for you can send to anyone who's been a parental figure in your life or a congratulations for raising yourself card for those of us who have lost parents or are estranged from our parents or just have done a lot of our own parenting of ourselves. And I think a lot of us, I mean, I'd rather say most of us don't fit in these cookie cutter boxes. So if we're going to make

cards about the lives we actually lead, these are the cards that we should be making. And I guess, yeah, it is intentional, but it also just seems really natural to me, right? Like if we're going to make cards with people on them, we don't all look the same. We don't all have the same lives. So shouldn't the people on the cards look different? I don't know. It is intentional, but it just seems like a very natural step for anyone who's making cards or making any kind of art. Yeah. Well, I mean, very natural for you, but not necessarily for the broader industry that has been around, like generations and generations. And also it seems like it really flows from, there's an interesting sort of decision making

a through line for you. Even when you step into the world of private equity, that doesn't last super long before you say, all right, I'm not going to entirely leave this, but I need to do it in a way that honors my value. So you head more into the domain of, you know, like venture philanthropy because it's much more value aligned. It seems like there's this through line that says, okay, this actually has to resonate deeply with the way that I see the world and what's important to me, no matter what you're doing. Yeah, I think that's true. I don't know if I had articulated it exactly like that when I made those

decisions. But I do think if you look at the life changes I've made step by step, that's what I've always gravitated towards. need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

So as we have this conversation, you're on the verge of sort of like a next big adventure for you. You're not leaving behind quotations like it's still this beautiful building thing, but you said yes to writing a book, which is an entirely different creative pursuit. And also you said, okay, so I'm going to write a book and I'm going to choose grief. And so the name of the book is welcome to the grief club and to really dive into this thing, which has been a big part of my life and also which has been the basis of a lot of the creative work that you've done, but not as a how-to manual. You took a very different approach to writing a book about grief. Tell me about this. Yeah, definitely not. If there were a how-to manual, I would like to read it.

But it's called Welcome to the Grief Club, and it's an illustrated book on grief for anyone who's had a significant loss or for someone who loves someone who's had a loss and wants to better understand what they're going through. And so the book is a mix of brief written reflections, illustrations, diagrams. And the way it's set up is you can really flip to any page or jump around to any section that resonates because grief isn't linear. So the book isn't either. And as we talked about, I think when you're grieving, especially in the acute stages of grief, it can be really hard to absorb information. And so the book is sort of written in a way that's accessible and you can just read a short paragraph or look at an illustration and, you know, get something from that and then you can put it down if that's all that you can take in that day. expert. It's really just a book from one grieving person to another that talks about all of the feelings and experiences that you may feel in your grief and saying that it's okay if you're feeling that way. And, you know, I see you and this is so hard. It's so, so hard and you will get through it and you're not alone.

Yeah. The notion that it's tiny little bits and mostly illustration is it's funny because when I looked at it at first, I'm like, okay, so a book that's this length, that is largely an illustrated book. Very often you kind of think about this as a kid's book. And this is sort of like, it's a book which understands the place emotionally that somebody is at when you're moving through grief and offers simple ideas and insights and shared experiences, but in a way which I feel like is very intentionally designed to land,

you know, and to also honor and respect the fact that somebody may not be able to read more than a sentence or look at an image at that given moment in time. So that sentence and that image needs to convey everything that needs to be conveyed without having to go into sort of like deep multi-page complexity, because complexity may not be something that's accessible. Yeah, that's exactly the intention behind it. It's kind of a book that I wish that I had when I was in the acute stages of grief. So I tried to keep that in mind when I was not just writing it, but like you said, like designing it, trying to figure out what and how many elements to put on each page.

I wanted it to be really easy to pick up a soft landing for something that's really, really hard to talk about. What was it like for you to create this? Because this is a whole different creative process. When you're doing letterpress, it's really solo. You're in the shop, you're running the press yourself, and then you literally hand paint and illustrate the the work that you do when you take on this. So writing a book and it is an entirely different creative process. It's also not just your creative process, you know, like you're working with an editor and a team and, and a lot goes into that. I'm curious how you experience the change in the way that you create where you effectively, you know, in your day-to-day life and in your business, you come up with an idea, you know, like, and you from end to end, you own it. And now this

is an entirely different process. I'm curious how that's been for you. It's been so different. Well, one, it's just, it's so much longer than how long I usually work on something. So I started working on the book in fall 2019. And the world has changed a lot in that window too. Yeah, definitely. And so I think, like you said, usually it's just me by myself. I think of a card, I write it, I show it to a couple of friends, and then I print it. And for me, this book was, one is just like a lot more space than I usually have to play around with. And I love that about cards, kind of like a poem. You have to really, you have a limited amount of real estate.

So you have to get really clear about what you're saying. But it also limits what you can say and the depth of which you can go into. And so, you know, I think having a whole book, a whole bunch of blank pages to play with has allowed me to create in a different way. Like you said, working with an editor, working with a team, having the book go through so many different iterations has also been a change, a really, really good one. I think I miss that. It made me realize how much I miss working with other people. I think there's only so far we can get to in our own heads, right? We all have blind spots or certain ways of thinking. And just having someone else on the other end being like, what about this word? Or what if we restructured it like this? It made so many things click for me that I don't think I would have gotten to on my own. And I think it's a much better book for it. But it's been hard. Writing is hard. And writing a book about something that's so personal, I mean, writing about something that's about the worst thing that's ever happened to me

in the middle of a pandemic has also been really emotionally hard. And to think about it constantly for so long, I don't know what I thought it would be like, but it was harder than what I expected. Yeah. I mean, I guess that part of my curiosity was, on the one hand, does spending so much time exploring this experience, like you said, the hardest thing you've ever been through, on the one hand, I would imagine there's some level of catharsis. But on the other it. It's cathartic and re-traumatizing. It's been cathartic. Well, in a couple of ways. One is I think I stopped processing my grief prematurely. I did a lot of processing right after I went to therapy. I talked about it. And then I got to a point where I was still grieving, but okay.

And so then I just stopped kind of thinking about it. And similar to what we're saying with the cards, with the book, there were things I wanted to say about the more complicated parts of grief that I hadn't really processed on my own because it was hard to think about. But because I wanted to say it to other people, I had to think about how I really felt about it and my own experiences. And so I think, again, the book was kind of a therapy, kind of free therapy for myself. So in that way, it was really cathartic. I felt like I worked through sort of a lot of my parts of my grief that I hadn't looked directly at before. But it was re-traumatizing in that it was five years ago, but writing the book at some point, it just felt like I was right back

there the first few months, the first year. And I hadn't really brought myself back there in a while. And so that was really hard. And it was hard to do it in the pandemic because a lot of the things that I do to relax or unwind or find connection were inaccessible to me. And so I think that made it harder. At the same time, being in this pandemic, we, I mean, a lot of people talk about we're in this state of collective grief. And so it was this moment of time also, though, that we were talking about grief and loss in a way that we weren't before. And so writing the book in the middle of that, putting out artwork and hearing from other people gave me a sense of connection because it was like something that people were also thinking about now that we're, you know, unfortunately all thinking about now. And so in some ways it feels like writing it in the middle of pandemic in a weird way made it feel more like a communal activity.

I don't know if that's the right way to put it, but yeah, I don't know. In some ways it was more isolating, but also less isolating to write about grief in a time when everybody is thinking about grief or dealing with their own losses. Yeah. I mean, it's like when you said yes to writing it, it was in the context of your own grief and people who had been through something similar. And now we find like the world has been dropped into this state of collective grief, whether it's for individuals that you've known and lost

or for a worldview that has been obliterated or for your own, just like on so many different levels. I think there are levels upon levels upon levels of grief. And now, you know, like not just a thousand, but millions, hundreds of millions of people who are all in it together. So yeah, it's got to, I mean, to write this book at this moment in time, talk about complicated feelings and emotions. But like you said, on the one hand, you know, like really hard, but on the other hand, it sounds like, you know, like connecting in a way that it wouldn't have been had it not been written at this particular moment in time. Yeah. I kind of feel that about most things to do with grief. It's always

like holding two seemingly contradictory truths at the same time. It's like, it's all, it's all just such a mixed bag. I'm curious also, as the book is about to come out, you've been creating, also continuing to run a business. What's it been like for you to be running quotations during these last few years, you know, just more broadly, just as an artist, as a business owner, as a human being? It's been hard running a business in general in the middle of a pandemic. I actually shut down for a few months, like most people did in 2020. But I think one of the things that I love about not just running a business, but a business in which I'm connecting with so many individual people on a daily basis is that I get to see

little slivers of connection and get to have these interesting conversations with people that I probably never would have met. And during the pandemic, I started offering care packages so people could buy a care package. I would handwrite a note for them and they could send it to a friend or someone just to check in on them. And honestly, writing those notes got me through the worst of the pandemic in a time where I felt like there was so little hope and all the news headlines were bad. Just writing notes from one person to another saying, happy birthday. I'm just checking in on you. I'm so sorry for your loss. I'm here for you. Just like those tiny gestures of connection and love really got me through. And I don't know, I feel like quotations has been such a blessing

in so many unexpected ways, even though it's been really hard. Yeah. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well in our conversation. So sitting in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think for me, a good life is one spent in the company of a few people that I love and love me deeply. You know, the past few years, I've realized that it's really important for me to find meaning and joy in my work. And there are a lot of things I enjoy doing, a lot of things I want to achieve, but all of that can fall apart and fall away. And I would be fine if I'm in the right company. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you will also love the conversation that we had with Lisa Congdon

about coming to art later in life. You'll find a link to Lisa's episode in the show notes. Good Life Project is a part of the ACAST Creator Network. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email,

even just with one person, just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

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