Good Life Project - Jen Sincero | Badass Habits

Episode Date: December 3, 2020

Jen Sincero wants you to be a badass in all parts of life. And, as we head into the end of the year and start thinking about what we want to make happen, she’s doubling down on building badass habits. A past guest, Jen is the author of #1 New York Times bestseller You Are a Badass, which has sold over three million copies, is available in over 35 languages, and has been on the New York Times bestseller list for over 4 years. Her follow-ups, You Are a Badass at Making Money - also a New York Times bestseller - and You Are a Badass Every Day are written with the same signature in-your-face kindness, down-to-earth humor and blunt practicality that made You Are a Badass a mega-bestseller and Jen a celebrated voice in the world of self-development. And, now she’s sharing that same irreverent, revealing and deeply-useful lens on the world of habits. I’ve studied a lot on habits and read pretty much everything written on them, from popular books to research. I confess I kinda thought I knew what there was to know, but Jen introduced opened my eyes to ideas that I’d never thought about before, especially in the way she offers them up. We go deep into all of this in today’s conversation, along with what it’s like to write books that tap into the zeitgeist and explode you into the hearts and minds of millions, and how that can both be a giant blessing and also a bit challenging.You can find Jen Sincero at:Website : https://jensincero.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/jensincero/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So my guest today, Jen Sincero, wants you to be a badass in all parts of life. And as we head into the end of the year and start thinking about what we want to make happen, she's doubling down on building badass habits. A past guest, Jen is the author of number one New York Times bestseller, You Are a Badass, which sold over 3 million copies, is available in 35 languages, and has been on the New York Times bestseller list for something like four plus years. Her follow-ups, You Are a Badass at Making Money, also a New York Times bestseller, and You Are a Badass Every Day, are written in the same sort of signature,

in-your-face, kindness, irreverent, down-to-earth humor, and blunt practicality that made You Are a Badass a mega bestseller and Jen a celebrated voice in the world of self-development. And now she's turning that same irreverent, revealing, and deeply useful lens on the world of habits. So I've studied a lot on habits and read pretty much everything written on them, from popular books to research. And I confess, I kind of thought I knew what there was to know. But Jen really opened my eyes to some ideas that I never really thought about before, especially in the way that she offers them up.

We go deep into all of this in today's conversation, along with what it's like to write books that tap into the zeitgeist and really explode you into the hearts and minds of millions, and how that can be both a giant blessing and also a bit challenging. Really excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Pilot to hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him.

We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Hey, before we dive into today's conversation, also I wanted to share something real quick with you.

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our Gleeper family. Okay. Onto the show. In the article where I discovered that you went to Colorado college, I also saw that you described growing up in your household as if it was like the family dinner table was like a writer's room. Yeah. I have three siblings and they're all hilarious. And my mom is really funny. My dad, not, you know, my dad's an Italian immigrant, much older than my mom. And he just sort of sit there and like nod and shake his head and laugh along with us. But it was cutthroat at the dinner table. And I remember if anybody brought a friend to dinner, they would just sit there sort of shell shocked, like trying to jump in. It's like holding on for dear life. Yes. I mean, it sounds like an amazing way to sort of really develop your chops in a non-professional way, but to sort of like understand that humor is this beautiful way to communicate. And also, I mean, it's interesting because as we've gotten older and throughout the years, I think a lot of people, I think if you don't

have like access to humor through windows of challenge, I don't know where you go. I guess some people go to solitude. Some people go to dark places. Humor feels like it's this one, just constructive coping mechanism. I think you're right. And I think it's almost cathartic. It sort of cleans the slate. If you're really upset about something, it's sort of the opposite side of the coin of crying really hard, right? Laughing is sort of the other side of that coin. And they're both, it's almost like throwing up. It's almost like cathartic. And then you can start from a more calm, clean slate, I think. Yeah. I think humor and tears or sadness, it's like two sides of a razor's edge. They can tip so easily from one to the other, but yeah, I think they do often

share the same sort of like net effect on us. I think you're right. I think it makes you more available too. If you can laugh at something, you can take information in more easily. Personally, I think that's why I write my books the way I do, I think, is because if you can have some humor and some lightness about it, it's not so scary and intimidating and hard. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that you have this now sort of like a franchise of badass books, massive successes, and known for a really irreverent voice and a really funny voice. So the proving ground of The Family Table has finally found its way out. But what's interesting is your story isn't this linear story of, hey, I went to school, I got out, I knew I wanted to be a writer, I started writing books, and boom, everything happened. There were decades in the middle where you were sort of wandering in the wilderness trying to figure out how do I make

this work? Everything from music to Europe to all these different things until you finally settled back into, okay, so that thing that I actually studied and loved back when I was 19, 20 years old, maybe there's a way to actually reconnect with that and make it my thing for real. You know, it's sort of interesting. And it's a perspective is so funny, right? Like I was absolutely stumbling around trying to figure out who I was and what I wanted to do. But at the same time, I was pretty much being who I was and doing what I wanted to do. I loved traveling. I was in a rock band. I was knitting. But for me, the financial piece was always the part that eluded me. So even though I was having so much fun, a lot of times I was just so desperately broke

all the time. And just, you know, so with that, and I was writing throughout it kind of, but, you know, big, non real big secret with me is writing is not that fun for me. So I, but I keep getting these great ideas for books and great ideas for things that I'm like, damn, I gotta write a book. I'm not complaining. Writing has been very, very kind to me. But, but, you know, I think it's so important to remember that what you're doing, when you're doing it has value that you may not see for decades. So even though I felt, as you said, that I was sort of wandering around trying to figure it out, I just kept doing what felt right-ish. And a lot of it was right. And I ended up using a lot of those experiences in what

I do now. So I think there's so much pressure on us to know and to have this very clear path and to really be solid in what you're doing. And meanwhile, it all totally counts. Yeah. And I mean, I can probably count on one hand the number of people that have had that path. Right? Exactly. That's such a good point. Who is that person? My dad. That's that person. One of three. Right. But I mean, if you really think about it, right, I think a lot of those people are people who are a generation or two older than us where societally that is what was prescribed. That's just what you do. You know, so it wasn't even that that's what they wanted to do.

It's just that was the acceptable way to live your life and put food on the table on the roof of the house. And you just kind of owned it. You're like, okay, that is the primary role in playing rather than saying like, okay, so this is actually what feels right to me. Right. And if you're lucky, my dad lucked out and hit on something that he loved doing, but I think you're absolutely right. You had to choose right then and there. So it's interesting. It's interesting also, I was, I think it was last year, we sat down with Katie Camillo on the podcast and she has like this decade, she calls like

her decade of wandering where she kept saying I'm a writer, but really all she was doing was wearing like black mock turtlenecks and not actually writing. And now she's just a stunning writer with awards and all sorts of stuff and movies on her books. But a lot of people have asked her, were know, like, like, were those wasted years? And she's like, nah, no, like everything that allowed me to write the way I write and see the world the way I see it and experience it. It was all, it's all gone into it. Like I wouldn't be able to do what I do and be who I am had I not spent that time. It's so true. And so I've really,

you know, people always ask, you know, what would you tell the younger you? And I'm just like, you know, don't worry about it, girl. Like, just enjoy it. It's, it's all good. You know, it all, it all counts. Yeah. You finally do back, you return to books, you know, I guess you hit your mid forties, you realize, okay, I want to keep doing this, but I need to actually stop living hand to mouth and figure out a way to make this sustainable. Start working with a coach, start writing book proposals for different people, learn to coach yourself and start really building your chops in this way, where you build a strong financial foundation underneath your ability to do the stuff you love to do. And then you start writing books. You Are a Badass comes out

and you basically take this irreverent point of view and say, why are there no self-help books that are just like real and funny? And apparently you hit a vein that, I mean, I remember when we first talked, my recollection is like, you really didn't even see it coming. Who could see something like that coming?

I mean, You Are a Badass was on the New York Times list for four years, over four years. I mean, anybody who thinks that's going to happen in their book really needs to calm down. Not at all. You know, I just, it's, it is a miracle. I talk about, yeah, really hitting the vein right when it all started. I mean, I hit it and then there were a trillion other books out there that were irreverent, had bright colored covers and dah, dah, dah. But

there really is something to be said about getting there first. And I got rejected by every publisher with that book. So that's a big thing to remember is when you do do something new, it's not usually welcomed by people because everybody's so terrified of doing something new and taking a risk. And so You Are a Badass was rejected by almost every publisher. Yeah. So beyond being able to gloat big time after- I try not to. I say that with such reverence. Right. I just meditated my way through it. It was calm. I released all of my anger. I'm curious, when you have something that hits that big, on the one hand, opportunity,

possibility, amazing things come your way. Was there any part of that experience that you struggled with? Yeah. The hardest part for me was feeling so profoundly grateful for everybody who bought it and who resonated with it. And then at the same time feeling really violated by it. And actually, this happened with my first book, even that didn't do anything ages before that book came out. It's such an intimate experience and I'm asking for it. I am writing like I'm your bestie. So all these people out there who read my books feel like we're besties. And then I would bump into people and, and it's, and again, I really want to stress that there is nothing more joyful than really connecting with other human beings on that level.

But I had to struggle with it because I'm a pretty private person at the end of the day. And to realize that, oh, wow, when you share things and it resonates with people, they feel connected to you. And you better be ready for that because it's weird. It's like everything you want and something that terrifies me, you know? So that was definitely my, my biggest challenge. Yeah. That doesn't surprise me at all. Especially cause the way you write is not only your voice and it's fun and reverent, but I would imagine that part of what happens is you're voicing what's already in so many people's heads. It's like you're giving

their thoughts and their feelings and their beliefs voice. So you become not just, oh, like a great read that's funny and helpful, but also you're like the person who is helping them express who they are in the world. You're giving words, you're giving language to them. And that's a whole different level of connection and also sometimes assumed relation. Yeah. It's really interesting. And I think for me, when I'm writing, whenever I hit that part where I'm like, oh, I don't want to admit that. Or just when I cringe, I'm like, that's what I have to write because that's the part of all of us that's so human. We're all so fallible and humiliated and we've all got these things, but if you can admit it, and again, you don't have to share everything with everybody. And I've gotten good at that, I think, but you still have to be vulnerable in any art that you do or else

no one's going to resonate with it because that really is what draws us together is this vulnerability. I actually write a lot about this in Badass Habits. I write a lot about boundaries and vulnerability and all that stuff, which was really fun after this long, badass journey I've been on to be like, all right, I'm going to get into that stuff. Yeah. Let's dive into that. So you got this new book, Badass Habits. And it was interesting because you start out the book kind of talking about the fact that you're like, well, okay, I've written the first book and the second book and the third book and fourth book. What's missing from sort of like the body of work that really needs to be there? Well, habits. But then your first line of thought is,

but I'm terrible at that. Out of the gate, really earning your confidence. Well, again, you know, it's all perception. And so that was my first just like, Oh God, what the hell am I doing? But I was focusing on the habits that I haven't mastered yet. Meanwhile, I have a bunch that I'm really good at and I've been a coach for a million years. So I do know this stuff and I do know how to coach people, how to, you know, on bettering themselves and sticking to habits and getting over their stuff. So, you know, but of course there was just a pang of terror at the beginning because it felt like such new territory in a way. And then I was like, no, it's not you idiot. You've been doing this forever. So. Yeah. I mean, when you dive in and you start to look at like, well, what are all the things that actually have figured out and done right? It's like that volume of things far outweighs

the, but we have that negativity bias, right? We just automatically to what we haven't done and what we haven't accomplished and what we're bad at. When you think about habits, well, first let's kind of like, let's define it a little bit, right? So when we talk about habits, what are we talking about in your, in your mind, in your language? The stuff that we have on autopilot that we don't really think about for better and worse. You know, it is this sort of handing over of the navigation of your life to the habit realm. And, you know, and this is the stuff I've been talking about in all of the books, pretty much with like our thoughts and beliefs and words. You know, we always think actions are habits, but it's all the thoughts, beliefs, and words

and perceptions. It's all habitual. So this topic ended up being way bigger than I was counting on the more I got into it. I was like, wow, it's new territory and it's everything I've been saying for the past decade. Yeah. What's interesting to me about habits also is how much of what we do on a daily basis is automatic. I've seen different stats, but over the years I've seen anywhere from 60 to 80% of what we do. We don't even think about it just happens. Isn't it incredible? So what better way to spend your time is there than to get good at your habits? I mean, it's really, and, and it's that whole stepping back and becoming aware of, oh my God, my negativity is a habit. You know, whatever it is, is like stepping back and becoming aware

of all the things that aren't actually working for you that you've just sort of doop-de-doo, you know, just do them automatically. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's also a really good thing that we have habits because I guess if you had to do all the things that you did all day long intentionally and thoughtfully and deliberately, it would kind of crush you. So the brain has this really interesting accommodation system where it pushes everything it can into this automatic process. So it's like it's trying desperately to lighten your cognitive load throughout the day. So nice of it. Yeah. What do we get wrong about habits? I mean, when we just think in big picture,

I want to, we'll dive down and get a little bit granular, but big picture, when we think about habits, you spend a lot of time thinking about this and writing about it. Did you find that like there were just big assumptions or big things that we just get wrong about it. Totally. The main one is that we tend to focus just on our actions and don't do anything with the thoughts, beliefs, and words behind the actions. And I wrote a whole thing in the book about your identity because how you identify is everything when it comes to habits. And it's so interesting. And again, it's just an awareness. And I can give you an example of that if you want to go deeper into that. So for example, let's say you want to quit smoking, but you've been smoking for 25 years. You identify as a smoker, right?

So that's just part of your identity, whatever that means to you. When you decide to quit smoking, if you don't start identifying as somebody who doesn't smoke rather than identifying as a smoker who is quitting, you set yourself up for such a much bigger struggle because with the identity, and I can go deeper into that too, but with an identity, so I don't, I picked smoking because I used to, I still love smoking, but I haven't done it in like 30 years, but I don't identify as a smoker anymore. And so for me, it's all about the negotiation, right? So I don't negotiate about taking a drag off a cigarette or if, you know, maybe I'll just smoke tonight because I'm having cocktails and it'll be fun. I don't negotiate with

that anymore than I would negotiate with drinking a bottle of vodka for breakfast because it's not who I am. So it takes that whole negotiation process out of the picture when you identify a certain way. Whereas a smoker who's quitting is all about the negotiation because you're still a smoker. So it's that struggle that you're always in with it. So it's really, really deep and will help you so massively. So I'd spend a lot of time on that in the book. Yeah. I found that conversation really fascinating and I actually do want to dive into it in a little bit more detail. One of the things though is around it that I was curious about is we build identities that support behaviors and beliefs and all this stuff and we'll talk about that. But externally around identities, we also build relationships and belonging.

And a lot of my curiosity when I was reading your thoughts and deconstructing this was when we have built community and the sense of belonging and acceptance, which we need as human beings to flourish around this identity, being a smoker, being a this, being a that. And then we want to change that, which means we also have to sort of like step into our shift identities. How do you navigate? I've got to imagine there's so much fear built around, but that means that I'm not going to belong. I'm going to be outcast. And there's a whole social context, which becomes terrifying. Yeah. I would have no career if that wasn't the case, by the way. Seriously, it is the biggest thing that holds people back.

And it makes sense because, as you said, we need community. We need support. We need to belong. And it's very risky to change. And you do stand to lose things with every change, but you also stand to gain things. If you are hanging out, let's say you want to quit drinking and all your friends are partiers and you quit drinking, you're probably not going to hang out with those people very much anymore, but you'll meet a bunch of new people who are in line with what your values are now.

Again, we tend to go straight to the negative. What do we stand to lose instead of So again, we tend to go straight to the negative. What do we stand to lose instead of focusing on what we have to gain? And I'm not saying that it isn't painful and it isn't challenging to lose certain people in your lives. I certainly have, and I'm sure you have with changes you've made, but I'm okay. And I've met so many great new people and kept a bunch of old people who've gone along with me. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me.

And I sometimes wonder whether an interesting approach is to anticipate that you're going to lose people and then literally start to build, kind of say like, okay, so who are the people that I would associate with when I become this person who I, when I shift identities, like what is that community and start to try and step into it beforehand. So instead of like loss, you know, the abyss wandering around and then finding new people, it's like you kind of start to front load them while you're actually, so there's like this balance where you're losing some, but it's simultaneously you're gaining some. Excellent advice. And the other thing that'll do is it'll keep your belief strong that it's even possible because you'll be surrounded by other people who are doing it.

It's like playing tennis with someone who's better than you. Like it's always, it's always best to do that just to build up your muscles. Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk let's go a little bit deeper into this idea of actually shifting identity though um because it's easy to say okay so i'm just gonna tell myself well now i am a smoker who is quitting smoking.

Take me under the hood a little bit more in terms of process. What are the things that we actually look at there? So it comes down to specifics, as everything does, really, because we get very vague. And that's when we really screw ourselves over because it's like, I identify as a non-smoker now, and then nothing happens. So getting specific about ways in which you identify as a smoker now. And then nothing happens. So getting specific about ways in which you identify as a smoker. So you have to look at who you're hanging out with, your thoughts, your beliefs and words. And it's so funny. It's like, I feel like I repeat myself all the time, but it really does come down to the same stuff over and over and over. So when you want to shift your identity, you need to

start acting as if, right? So find somebody who doesn't smoke, who's never smoked a cigarette in their life and pick out the specifics of how they think, how they hold themselves, what they do, how they hang out, what they talk about. It really is just getting all of these specific things in line and noticing what smokers think and talk about and how they act and what they do and making conscious choices around those things and really getting those muscles strong and catching yourself. And I talk a lot about mantras also, which I have found to be super duper helpful. So just when you catch yourself with your old mantra of, man, I'd kill for a cigarette. If that's your sort of thing that goes through your head all the time to have something at the ready that has a lot of emotional

and felt stuff going on in it for you that you can counteract that with when it comes up, because it's going to come up all the time. And that'll just start, you know, at first it may sound like a bunch of malarkey, but you just keep beating yourself with it over and over and over and over and over. And pretty soon, you know, everything starts to line up in place, but it's, it's a process for sure. It doesn't happen overnight, but it comes down to the specifics of your beliefs, thoughts, words, and actions. Yeah. And I would imagine, and that makes perfect sense to me. It's sort of like you got to work from the inside out, language is part of it, but it's also the beliefs and the thoughts of what are you actually thinking and finding those exemplars, like the way you described it. And then trying to kind of model, like deconstruct what are they doing, but also

talking to them about how they see the world, like what are they thinking about, what do they believe, and to start to sort of like figure out how to adopt those. The idea of a mantra is kind of fascinating to me. And I know you write about that in one of the chapters as well. And that's kind of been a part of your practice, not just in habits, but I know for years from the beginning is you're very language oriented and very like let's define specifically where we don't want to be, but also where we do want to be and then loop it on repeat. What happens when we do that?

Well, I mean, think about it. So many people talk about how, you know, my whole life I thought I was so stupid because my mother said I was stupid all the time, right? We hear stuff like that all the time. You could be, you know, Einstein, but your mother said you were stupid. So you got that on repeat, created a rut. You looked for proof of that, right? I also have a whole section in the book about how humans love to be right. And I think it's so fascinating looking at that. That was such a fun part to write because it really is so true. We need to prove that we are right, even if it is about something that we hate. So for example, and this is why mantras are so important when I talk about this in all of my books, but because money was my big brick wall, I went from saying all the time, I can't afford it to money flows to me easily and freely. And one of the things that was so important about that is I spent my whole life subconsciously

proving that I can't afford it. And when I shifted my mantra and my focus and my identity, because I still wanted to be right, I then spent my time proving that money flows to me easily and freely. It made such a profound shift in my life that I blather on about mantras probably longest in the whole workbook section, but it's important. And it's such a simple thing that you can do that I found makes such a big shift. Yeah, I love that. And what's funny is five, 10 years ago, I probably would have laughed at that. Oh, me too, for sure.

Yeah, because I'm like, oh, please. I know, it's so corny and woo-woo. And then I have this sort of weird split brain. And I think you kind of have something similar where it's sort of like I'm open but skeptical. Totally. And I'm willing to try it even if I don't believe it and allow sort of just a practice to prove itself to me over time. When I first started thinking about like repeating mantras and stuff like that, I was like, well, a lot of the explanation around it was based in metaphysics and spirituality. And I'm like, okay, I'm open to that, but I need something more grounded.

Then when I start to realize, I'm curious whether you've sort of like perceived this too, is for me, what starts to happen is the repetition lead you to in probably like a thousand microscopic moments in ways throughout the day, act differently, behave differently, relate to people in the world differently in a way that people in the world respond to you differently. And it creates different outcomes in itty, it-bitty ways that start to compound. So I was able to wrap my head around it by saying, okay, I don't have to go to the metaphysical route.

There's actually kind of a rational, practical explanation for why this would actually make a real difference. Yeah. And it's like water washing over a rock, right? It just, over time, it starts to break down the rock. And so I feel like that is how we are in life. Like you hear something enough times and it starts to crack open a new part of yourself. Yeah.

I was recently talking to Peter Tunney, who's this amazing pop artist who does these massive, massive things around words like gratitude and dreams and and he's been doing it for 25 years and he was saying like in the beginning this is a classic new york character he's like oh my god why am i even doing this 25 years later he's like i'm the gratitude guy i know it's so we're all so reticent to like embrace it because because you I mean, I've read about this all the time. I was so cool. I was a punk rocker. This stuff is just for hippies in balloon pants. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But yeah, I just, I was so, and especially LA is so woo woo. And I was just way too cool for school, but there's something to be said for desperation. I just got so

desperate. I was like, I will try anything because I am sick of eating tuna fish. Not that there's anything wrong with tuna fish. Not that I did that. The other day it was delicious. My choice, however. Right. So we've talked a bit about identity, about shifting identity, mantras. Let's talk a little bit about sort of like the actual process. When you think about habits, there's a fairly straightforward, the process is fairly straightforward. Doing it may not be, you know, like sort of like as easy, but what are in your mind sort of like the critical components that lead to the creation of a constructive habit? Doing the groundwork, as we said, from the inside out,

really taking that seriously. And then putting things in place. I did a ton of research on this. I actually had a course on habits years ago. And one of the things that I really focused on was ease and friction. Like those two things, such a no-brainer. But if things are easier, you're going to do them. So,

and again, it comes down to specifics. So making whatever your new habit is as easy as possible, go to the gym that's down the street from your house, leave the big glass of water, you know, in the hallway that you walk down every day, like put things in place to make it as easy as possible. And likewise, if you're quitting something, don't have any cigarettes in your house. Don't hang out with people who smoke. Just get it into an easy place. And it comes down to taking five minutes to really sit and think, how can I up my game and make this easier or harder and really, really do that? It's so simple. And it comes back to that thing where it's like this whole thing of changing your life,

we think it's going to be so hard and there has to be some big nut we got to crack to make it happen. And it's really kind of stupid and simple. You got to do it. And definitely sometimes you have to work hard and definitely there are challenges, but man, do we love the drama around it? You know? Yeah, drama. Drama, I love that stuff. It touches in really easily. But what's interesting about what you just shared is this notion that we tend to think, okay, so using your, we'll go back to your example, right? I want to be a non-smoker.

Like I'm not, I'm going to change my identity, not smoke. So the habit I want to create is not smoking. But that's really not the habit I want to create. Cause you don't create a negative. Right. So, so like, how do you, I, so you say, I, I mean, but do you say I am a non-smoker or do you just, how do you, how do you frame that? Yeah. You, you would say, and it's different for every person, right? Cause it has to have some emotional cord to it, or it's going to mean nothing to you. So you've really got to find what it is. So I'm a healthy person. For me, when I quit smoking, I hated feeling in control of a drug. I couldn't sit through a whole movie. By the time it got to the end, I was like, I got to have a cigarette now. And I would just leave the movie early. So lame. And I'd be like,

oh my God, I hate nicotine having power over me. So for me, it was, I am in control of my life. I can create any reality I desire. So you figure out what the real hook is for you and turn it on that and make that something that you put on repeat. Right. So it's like the repetition is really more focused around the underlying desired end state and the behaviors that would lead you there just kind of like follow along. Exactly. Exactly. Also interesting in the notion of identifying this bigger thing, but then focusing on ease, you know, part of this, I know you talk about this a bit. One of the ways to create ease is, you know, you talked about shifts in environment, but also kind of chunking things

down to the tiniest possible element. So we think about, okay, so I want to move through life and never spoke again, or I want to be exercising, you know, like all day, every day, but we don't do that because it's too big. And, but then we're like, well, but putting on my shoes and walking around the block for five minutes is not going to do anything. So why would I even bother doing that? But in fact, that's actually the way it happens. Right.

Right. And I'll tell you, I saw this all the time with my clients when I was coaching. Oh, and myself, you know, overwhelm is the biggest killer of everything. I mean, I can't, you can talk yourself out of doing pretty much every single thing on planet Earth if you thought about it long enough, right? I mean, there's a zillion reasons not to and a zillion reasons why it's not going to work. So if you just chunk it down to tiny bite-sized pieces, and yes, you can visualize the end result and get excited about it and see the whole thing, but what is that? Don't eat the whole elephant at once.

You do it bite by bite, which is kind of gross image. But yeah, the beast of overwhelm will take you down if you let it. So it's so important just to focus on practicing piano for five minutes. Won't kill you. Meditate for five minutes. Yeah. And I think it's interesting too. I know for me, what's been helpful is to tell myself

early on, well, what's more important to me now is just, is creating the habit and just knowing that once I actually have that loop kind of installed in my brain, the behavior itself is just going to organically grow over time so that it will reach a level where it actually is making a difference, but not to set myself up where I'm like, I can't do it unless the behavior itself is going to actually make an immediate difference and just kind of like first create the loop. I know that over time, it'll start to expand and actually make a more meaningful difference in my life. Is that something that you feel is like you've seen in your life or in working with so many other people over the years?

I really wish I had spoken to you before I finished writing the book because I love that perspective on it where it's like, get excited about creating just the habit itself and make that an emotional attachment. Because the thing is, we are emotional creatures. And if we have emotion around something, we will go do it. You know, I talk about all the time how rationally you can know something is a really stupid idea, but emotionally, it'll be really fun. So you usually end up doing it. So it's that emotion that pushes you through it.

And I think I love that way of looking at it where it's just like, I'm just starting a habit. So it doesn't matter how small I start. It's all about the habit. And then it'll start to sort of take care of itself. That's beautiful. One of the things that comes to mind with all of this also is, and you talk about this also, is for you to create any of this, for you to be intentional about all of this, you

got to have a certain amount of self-awareness, which is in itself is a habit. Right. Which is a little bit meta and a little bit, I'm not sure if I feel like that's a good thing or a bad thing. I know. I know. Once you start looking at habits, it's bonkers, right? It's like, damn, they're everywhere. Yeah. So yeah, that's why everything starts with awareness. And I think though, by the time you're going to pick up a book, like any of my books or any habit books, you're already available to look at yourself. I think if you're really gonna try to better yourself, I would hope that you're available to start being aware of really pulling back and being like, oh, you know, maybe hanging out with so-and-so isn't helping me, or maybe I am responsible for

A, B, C, and D and, you know, finding awareness and busting yourself and making better choices in the moment. You know, you have to, you have to have some self-awareness or you're just going to be in that autopilot habit of being a victim and feeling like you have no control over your life. Yeah. I mean, I think awareness is the ultimate metascope for everything in life because nothing happens intentionally unless and until you have it. You may end up accomplishing cool things, but you won't really understand why or how to repeat it or how to share it. The other thing that I'm curious about is when I think about awareness or self-awareness,

I've recently been deconstructing it into two different things. I have about a decade long mindfulness meditation practice that I didn't come to willingly. I came to it because I was on my knees like most people. Right, right. And I was like, all right, something's got to work here. But what I've started to realize over the years, and I'm curious about this because you've worked with so many people and that's not been an experience that I've had on the same level as you, is I feel like there is part of awareness is some sort of revelatory experience. And maybe you initiate it yourself. You go out and you look for books or learning or education or maybe the universe reveals it to you in a moment of reckoning. But the other part of it is being open to receiving it. And I feel like they're kind of two different things.

And you can have one but not the other. And you won't have awareness, even if stuff is being revealed to you nonstop. So on the reception side, I'm wondering if you've seen that be something that really trips people up, not sort of like receiving what's being given to them. Right. Well, the thing that's so always amazed me is people would pay me all this money to coach some and then they'd be like, yeah, but blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'd be like, all right, you're not as available as you think you are. And certainly we all have areas in our life where we'll hear anything and do the work.

And then we've all got these places where we're just quote unquote stuck because we can't receive the information and because we are attached to being a victim, because we're so convinced we've got something huge that we're going to lose, right? It's all about loss. But again, it's like that water hitting the rock. If you just keep showing up, suddenly you're brought to your knees and you're meditating every day. Finally, something will... Sometimes it's just the passage of time and hearing it over and over and over. And then you have what we call an aha moment, which is just when you viscerally understand

something you've heard 8,000 times already. Yeah. And oftentimes those don't happen in the way that we want them to. I know. It's like, I remember asking, I've asked so many people now, I'm like, can you reach that moment without being brought to your knees in some way, shape or form? And almost to the one they're like, I can't actually identify like an experience without that. I mean, not that you have to go through deep, profound trauma, but it generally takes some like level

of rattling to wake up. Well, we have to get, you know, the discomfort. What is that great? And I as an end quote, I put it in one of my books. The pain of it's something like the discomfort of being wrapped tightly in a bud became more painful than whatever it took to change. That kind of thing. Like you have to reach that threshold because there is comfort in discomfort. There's familiarity, you know, and it's sort of like what we were talking about at the beginning where you belong and you have an identity and this is familiar and you feel safe and going outside of that realm of comfort and the known is terrifying. So that's why we cling to it even when it doesn't serve us. Yeah. It's like known pain is more desirable than the unknown, even if it doesn't have any pain associated with it.

Yeah. Right. We're so ridiculous. We are weird beasts. Yeah, I know. I always think of Bugs Bunny holding up that sign, silly, ain't we? Right. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you.

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Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. One of the other things that I know you talk about in this concept of sort of like reconstructing new habits that are helpful is the idea of anticipating excuses and distractions and sort of like planning for them in advance, which is interesting too, because when I think about the original introduction I had around the idea of mantras, a lot of it also came out of this world of manifesting, which I have a very strange relationship with. And part of it was, you know, never, ever, ever think about or give language to the state that you don't want. Right. And in fact, that's wrong.

Because when you anticipate excuses and distractions, you're inviting them in. But for the purpose of being able to reframe and plan around them. But it's actually really helpful. Absolutely. So it's sort of like, you know, I think a lot of people mistake this power of positive thinking is you've always got to be positive. Like you're allowed to use the sadness and use the negativity to help you and we're feeling creatures. And I feel like we're also fallible creatures. And so when you bust, you know, awareness is all about figuring out the things that are not working for you and getting specific about the words, beliefs, and thoughts that you're

subscribing to. So once you get aware of, you know, I can't afford it is your mantra. If you realize that you're like, Oh yeah, you know, maybe that's not so hot. Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I live in a garage, you know? So that's, you need that. It's, it's your pal at the beginning because then you can, you know, make a different choice. Yeah. And then the process of, of intentionally anticipating excuses or things or distractions, things that will trip you up, you know, it allows you to, to sort of like own it and figure out how you're going to navigate through it. Yeah. Which makes you more likely to be able to actually do that. Exactly.

Exactly. So it's so helpful to sit down, especially because a lot of habits that you pick up a book like mine for are habits you've already tried and failed at, right? So the good news about that is you know what threw you off track the last couple of times you tried to do it. So getting specific about the things that you can change or put into place to help you, you know, when those distractions rise up, cause they sure as hell will, uh, you'll, you'll be, you know, ready for them. So it can be really super helpful to take the time to sit down and,

and figure out what those are. Yeah. I love that. I remember a couple years back, I was exposed to the work of Professor Gabrielle Uttingen, who actually did in a lab, she analyzed how successful people were at accomplishing things when they just thought about what they wanted and went for it versus when they identified their potential obstacles. And most often it was their inner obstacles, the demons that would very likely pop up along the way, planned for that, and then went ahead. And there was a huge difference in the success rates when you actually went negative and then built a plan in advance. But there was something else that happened.

And I'm curious where you land with this, which she said a lot of people, that process stopped them from initiating in the first place. Once they realized the effort that it would have actually taken, they realized that it wasn't meaningful enough for them to even want to put that in. And it allowed them to sort of like free up space and shift it to do something else that did matter. How great. Specifics are everything. Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. I know that's such a center of like what you focus on is not talking in generalities. Yeah. It's so helpful. You know, it really is because, because I also think generalities scare the crap out of us. You know, it makes things too big. I also think generalities scare the crap out of us. You know, it makes things too big. It's like, I've got a trillion emails to answer today. You're

like, do you, maybe you've got 30 and how long is that actually going to take when you break things down into specifics? It takes the overwhelm away. I really, and I think that's a beautiful story. Like, you know, maybe the habit you're trying to adopt is something you don't, you think you should. And so once it, rather than something that you really desire. So when you break it down and you realize all the things you've got to do, you're like, you know, it's not worth it to me. And that's so great to know because time is the only time is the most precious commodity we've got, you know, it's time and health, but you know, it's finite in these bodies. Anyway. You brought up also earlier in our conversation, the notion of boundaries,

which I think is such a big issue. And I had never really heard talked about in the context of habit before. Take me deeper into this. You know, it's so funny because when I was talking to my editor about writing this book, I was like, Oh, ever since I hit 50, I am just such a badass at boundaries. but really applying them to changing yourself and how important it is for everybody involved again, because it's kind of about specifics. Again, when you get specific about where you end and somebody else begins, it helps everybody from just becoming these big blobs of murky expectation and commitment and passive aggressiveness. I mean, it's such, I don't know about you, but the older I get, I put this in the book too.

My dad was like, I don't know if you get older and wiser or older and just more tired. And I was like, that's so perfect. It's true. I'm just too tired for the drama. And so, so when it comes to habits, because you are changing your identity, right? If we're doing it correctly, people are going to take issue. Who know you? You know, people like to be right about who you are. And not only because they like to be right, but because it reflects back on them, what they, you know, what they could change or, you change or whatever their deal is. So if you're not solid in creating the time for yourself to do this new habit and creating the space and the environment and all the things you need to change, it's going to make it a lot harder. It's really important. Yeah. What I found really interesting also in the way that you lay it out, sort of like you have three boundary issues, you know, being too yes-y, being too no-y, and then too much

control. And I think a lot of people think about boundaries and all they think about is the first one. Right. I'm just saying yes to everyone and everything, letting everything in. And it's not okay. It's not safe. It doesn't let me be me. It doesn't give me time.

There's also this really interesting other side, which is like saying no too much. Talk to me more about that. And it's all kind of from the same protect, that whole sort of like not wanting to be abandoned and not wanting to die at the very core of it. It's a very primal thing, right? So if you say no to intimacy, for example, that keeps you safe. If you say no to opportunities, it would make you grow and be more exposed. That keeps you safe. There's a lot of places where people just deny themselves the things they would love and the things that would make them shine out of fear. And by the way, I think we all have all of these depending on the situation and the person we're

dealing with, right? But yeah, there's so much more to boundaries than we think because I do think everybody sort of goes straight to the one where you say yes all the time. Yeah. And I think the notion of boundaries as like a set it and forget it type of thing is, you know, the rigidity that we all, we kind of think like, Oh, okay, I'm going to draw my line in the sand and that's my boundary and that's it for life. Like I've drawn the line. Right. Just doesn't work that way. I know. Yeah. Each situation has it. And I also think it makes it so scary. You know,

it makes you feel like you're going to lose something again. And you are going to lose something when you set boundaries. But the gain is so good. It really is about looking at... And I think it's so interesting, especially with this yes boundary that's the big crowd pleaser. We worry people aren't going to like us unless we say yes to everything. But meanwhile, if you say yes to everything, you get resentful and grouchy and passive aggressive, and they end up not liking you. And I think this is the cosmic joke of being a human being on planet earth is all the things we do to avoid pain are the things that cause us the very pain we're trying to avoid, you know, all the time. So like the intimacy example, like I'm saying no to intimacy because I don't want to get my heart broken. You're alone and you're brokenhearted because you say no all the time. You know what I mean? So if you just look at it, it's fascinating. Yeah. And the third one also, boundaries around control, wanting to control everything basically. Yes. right. Especially now.

We're living in this state where sometimes in life we invite in uncertainty in the name of possibility. We were starting a new business, starting a new project, mounting a new show. And we know it's a scary place to be, but we kind of feel like we said yes to it intentionally. And then we're living in a world now where we haven't invited it in. It just is. And we feel an insane amount of groundlessness. And I wonder whether we default to that boundary of just trying to exert control over everything possible because so much feels out of our control.

And again, when you start to, it's the question you pose. On the one hand, well, there's probably something good to that, but what's it taking from us at the same time? I personally feel like what an opportunity this is. And I'm saying this from, you know, the lap of luxury. Like for me, I know some people are losing everything and have such enormous challenges, but for me, I feel like exactly what you said. And I'm going to say this for everybody, actually, too. I mean, for me, I'm from a different standpoint. But I think all of us are being forced to reconsider reality.

You know, everything has shifted, whether we like it or not. And so everything that we take comfort in and that we can rely on and that makes us feel safe isn't necessarily there. And so we are being forced to allow, which is, you know, and just let it be what it's going to be and become more, you know, it's going to make us all catch ourselves in things that we take for granted. And it's going to catch ourselves in where we are trying to control things. And I just think, you know, being forced to have such a massive reality shift, there's so many silver linings with that, that I find very exciting. Yeah. And I'm probably wired pretty similar to you. And again, both of us acknowledging that there is a lot of disruption and a lot of pain, a lot of suffering and different abilities to, you know, like move through that with ease and not right now. And I think it's important to sort of like, yeah, say yes.

There are very profound different realities in the world right now. And still, you know, there is no such thing as disruption without possibility. Right. I love that. So you're either, you know, you may be the one that's being disrupted by the possibility, but like, if you can ask the question, well, where is it? Is it accessible to me? Can I make it accessible to me? But again, that, that means you going back to your boundary issue, letting go of a certain amount of control and saying, not only am I going to open to this uncertainty, but maybe I'll even step further into it in the name of trying to find something else. And that's terrifying for all of us.

Yeah. It's really wild. I mean, I feel like the air is more viscous right now. We're in this alternate reality. And I think that's very exciting in some ways. And, you know, I'll admit it. I kicked and screamed about writing this book in the middle of the pandemic. I was, you know, telling my editor, like, I can't even put on a bra. What do I, how am I going to get, move my arms? I was such a baby. And she's like, oh, you don't know what to do. Might as well just do it because we do your best. Like, and I think because I wrote it under such a different, in a different reality, I think it's juicier in a lot of ways than it would have been. Who knows? I have no idea, but it has to be different, right?

I mean, I was different. The world was different. So I think there's definitely things that were very positive because of the pandemic and writing in this state. It kind of brings us to, I mean, the way you wrap the book is really, we're toward pretty close to the end, is just this notion of surrender. You know, which is a little bit counterintuitive in the context of habits. Because you kind of think, well, habits is about me taking control. It is about me being specific and defining this thing and adopting patterns and repeating these things and behaviors and thoughts and beliefs every single day. And yet, the notion of surrender is a part of the process. So there's tension there. Absolutely. Well, the whole notion of surrender has tension,

no matter what it is in your life. You do your work and you surrender. You focus and you surrender. It's this delicate dance of both and the same thing with habits. You do everything you know how to do and you surrender because if we're going to get woo-woo on it, the universe really does know best and you're being driven by a desire to change a way of being. And that desire is you tapping into sort of your higher self. And when you get out of your own way and let this come through, you empower yourself to make it happen. So you do everything you know how to do and you keep surrendering into the emotion of it and surrendering into the desire of it. And that's going to help you as well. I felt like,

I remember writing this part of the book and feeling like, I think I articulated it the way I've been trying to articulate for so long. I don't know if you felt that when you read it, I think I nailed it. I don't know. Cause it is even saying it now, like I'm, I'm sort of struggling a little bit because it is so counterintuitive and so, you know, clashy, but, um, but I do understand it. I just can't always articulate it perfectly. Yeah. And I wonder if like part of the notion of surrender in the context of habits is also surrendering to the notion that as much as we want to exert control, as much as we do all the things, like we check the boxes, we follow all the steps, there is a certain amount of just, we just don't know, you know? And it's like what

we were talking about earlier, you know? And also like you have said, and you've written, these things take time, you know, and if you don't surrender to the notion that I'm going to just step into it and believe that this is actually going to make a difference and it may take weeks, it may take months and even take years, that is a profound act of surrender right there. Yeah. Very good point. Yeah. Just really, we have no idea what's going to happen in the next second, you know, so you got to just sort of go with it. Yeah. Otherwise you're in resistance, which is, you know, you don't want to be pushing so hard that you're pushing away the thing, the very thing you want. I think that's a big part of it too.

Yeah. I love that. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So hanging out here in this container of a good life project, if I offer the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I mean, the first thing that comes up is being around other people and being in an environment that lights you up and makes you really appreciate this one and only life you've got on this crazy planet zooming through space. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life?

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On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.