Good Life Project - Jen Sincero | How to Be a Badass @ Money & Life

Episode Date: September 1, 2022

How do you flip the switch from struggle and futility to wild, unbridled joy and success? And how does money play into that equation, if at all, as a source fuel, an outcome, or both?Today's guest, Jen Sincero, started out as a musician in a band, and really thought that that would be her future. She loved the music, the creativity, the comradery of being in a band, surrounded by community. What she didn’t like, though, was the struggle that seemed embedded in the experience. She wanted the passion, but not the suffering. In addition to music, Jen started writing on the side, eventually publishing a book about her drummer, and then to a second book. And Finally, it started leading her into a deeper and deeper career in writing. Along the way, she also realized that the life that she was living was not the life she wanted to be living. And she started doing a lot of deep, personal work that incited a personal awakening and reinvention, which then fueled her to write You Are a Badass®: How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life, which became a global phenomenon that has remained on the NY Times bestseller list for years, sold millions of copies worldwide, is available in over 40 languages, and continues to grow in popularity around the globe. Her follow-ups, You Are a Badass® at Making Money: Master the Mindset of Wealth also a NY Times bestseller, You Are a Badass® Every Day, and Badass Habits are written with the same signature benevolent snark, down-to-earth humor and blunt practicality that made You Are a Badass® a beloved bestseller and Jen a celebrated voice in the world of self-development.Her book, You Are a Badass at Making Money is the focus of today’s best of conversation. We track her journey and also we dive into this idea of personal development and money and making money. And a lot of our weirdness around money around writing about money, around talking about money and where that comes from and maybe what you do about it. It's a fun conversation that touches on a lot of different moments in her life and a lot of ideas.You can find Jen Sincero at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Patrice Washington about wealth, what it is, and what it’s not.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.Zelle: When anyone sends you money or if you need to get paid back, always ask for Zelle®! With Zelle, the money goes straight into your bank account, and it works even if the sender banks somewhere different than you in the U.S. Look for Zelle® in your banking app today. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I know how it feels to know that you could be doing so much better and you're just freaking out and your life is flying by. And you're seeing all these other people out there who aren't nearly as fabulous as you raking in the dough, living lives they love, doing cool stuff. And I want the good people of earth to make a lot of money. Like we need the altruistic, big hearted people of earth to make a lot of money because that's power. And that's how your voice can get heard.

And that's how the things that light up your heart happen on this earth really is by having money. It's not everything, but it sure as hell helps. So how do you flip the switch from struggle and futility to wild, unbridled joy and success? And how does money play into that equation, if at all, as a source fuel and outcome, both or none? Well, today's guest, Jen Sincero, started out as a musician in a band and really thought that would be her future.

She loved the music, the creativity, the camaraderie of being in a band surrounded by community. What she didn't like, though, was the struggle that seemed embedded in the experience. She wanted the passion, but not the suffering. In addition to music, Jen started writing on the side, eventually publishing a book about her drummer and then a second book. And finally, it started leading her into a deeper and deeper career in writing. And along the way, she also realized that the life she was living was not the life she wanted to be living. And she started doing a lot of deep personal work that incited a profound awakening and reinvention that then fueled her to write, You Are a Badass, How to Stop Doubting Your Greatness and Start Living an Awesome Life, which then became this global phenomenon that has

remained on the New York Times bestseller list for years, sold millions and millions of copies worldwide, is available in over 40 languages, and continues to grow in popularity around the globe. Her follow-ups, You Are a Badass at Making Money and You Are a Badass Every Day and Badass Habits are all written with the same signature benevolent snark down-to-earth humor and blunt practicality that made You Are a Badass a beloved bestseller and Jen, a truly celebrated voice in the world of self-development. And her book, You Are a Badass at Making Money, is the focus of today's best of conversation. We track her journey, and also we dive into this idea of personal development and money

and making money. And a lot of our weirdness around money and writing about money or talking about money and where that comes from, and maybe what you might do about it. It's a fun conversation that touches on a lot of different moments in her life and a lot of really interesting, provocative and useful ideas. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him.

We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So, at some point, it sounds like early in your life, you were really into music. Yeah. Yeah. I've always been very into music. Right. What's not to be into?

I know. Right? And you end up in a band playing guitar and singing. How does that come about? Like most things in my life with zero experience, more desire than skill. And it was so much fun. And I was working at a record company at the time and was around music all the time. I was in New York City in a band working at a record company. the time and was around music all the time. It was just a dream. I was in New York City in a band working at a record company.

It was pretty, pretty awesome. So, I mean, around this time also, it seems like, were you writing at the same time? You know, I wasn't. My job at the record company was as an advertising copywriter. So I was in an in-house ad agency writing like Ozzy Osbourne TV scripts and ads and stuff like that, but which came in huge help as my writing career took off because I'm pretty good at writing book titles now, but it trained me for that. You know, you're always like, what is the meaning of this job? Well, you've had so many jobs over the course of your life, at least

I have that I'm like, what am I doing here? And I got to say, I have used the whole Buffalo in my life now for sure, every job. Yeah, no, I totally agree. It's funny. I did a whole bunch of copywriting also. It's like one of those rare skills where anything that you do, and it's all about human psychology. It's like, what flips do I need to switch to inspire somebody to take some action? It's like this massive puzzle. Yeah.

Kind of musical in an interesting kind of similar way. There's a cadence to language massive puzzle. Yeah. Kind of musical in an interesting kind of similar way. There's a cadence to language. Absolutely. Yeah. So at some point you end up, well, tell me how your music career winds up. It's not very pretty. So I was in Crotch, which was my band in New York City.

Fantastic music video, by the way, on your about page, on yours. Thank you. Yes, I was there. And then the band, typical, like drunk punk rock people, huge fight, band breaks up, explodes, kill all our babies. We had a demo deal with Columbia Records. The movie was getting a lot of interest and we just hated working together. And so killed off everything, broke up with my boyfriend, quit my job and moved to Albuquerque. So that was the end. And then when I got to Albuquerque, I met Albuquerque had an amazing local music scene. I was in a band with people who actually knew how to play. So, you know, and I was on New York and it was, it was really fun. And so I sort of wrote a lot of the songs and brought them to the most amazing musicians I've ever played with. And

it was a good band. It was really, really fun. That's awesome. So you were doing the songwriting and playing also? I was playing. They were way better players than I was. So I did play, but I was definitely in the background because they were great. So what else is happening with writing around here? So you're starting to write music. Yes, I was writing a ton of music. And at that time, let me think, what is the order of my life? No, still hadn't written a book. So I was in bands there. I was freelance writing back at the record company in New York. So I was freelancing and living out west and loving it, loving it. And then my drummer at the time, he became my boyfriend and it was explosive again. I used to drink a lot. And anyway, so we broke up and, and you know, the rockstar thing didn't happen. And I'm living in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I was like, I have got to get my poop in a scoop. And there is not enough opportunity here. I don't know what the hell I'm doing with my life. And I was really done with New York City. I was like,

I guess LA makes the most sense because it's an internationally viable city. It's, you know, creative people can be very successful there. And there's a lot of nature at this point. I was like unavailable for the concrete jungle anymore. So I moved to LA and it was a tough transition. Like the first six years, I was more depressed than I've ever been. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. And I went to a party one day and somebody asked me what I did. And I just started telling people I was a writer and I don't really know, I guess, cause I was a copywriter and I always knew how to write, but I just started telling people that I was a writer. And I think this is such an interesting thing. Like when you get very depressed or when you, you know, I really,

I was kind of catatonic just sort of stumbling around in this days. But the beautiful thing about that is it was kind of like I was meditating all the time because I was so out of it and so just whatever. So I shut my brain off and my other self was like, you are a writer. You need to announce it. So I started telling people I was a writer. I met somebody at a party who knew a publisher who was basically a woman who had an assistant and a desk and $5. Like she was nothing. And she's like, listen, I got no money.

Here's the worst contract in the world. You have nothing to show me. You could write a book. Let's was nothing. And she's like, listen, I got no money. Here's the worst contract in the world. You have nothing to show me. You could write a book. Let's, let's do it. Let's give it a shot. I was like, great. So I pitched her the idea of writing a book about a chick in a rock band. Cause that's all I knew about that time. And that's my first book. Don't sleep with your drummer. So it was, you know, semi-autobiographical. So while I was writing that book, the little company she had got bought by a monster book packager. figure out what the hell I'm doing. And all this was happening. So it came out there. And then it got after the book came out, right after it came out, my neighbor was giving me a haircut in Silver Lake, Los Angeles. And he was an interior designer. And he got a phone call from one of his clients. And he's like, here, talk to this guy, I gotta go get another pair of scissors. And I talked to the

guy, he ended up being a producer. And he's like, what are you doing? I told him about my book. He's like, I'd love to read it. And the next day, I was at the head of development at HBO. They wanted to turn it into a TV show. Huh. So it's just been this crazy roller coaster. It's like one thing after another. After another.

And not planned. Not planned. That's what's so interesting to me about it. Not planned, but going, like, letting it lead you. And that's what I think that I've learned so much throughout my life. And then I write about you are a badass at making money and all my other books is like, you don't have to have everything figured out. You just have to know sort of what feels right. Because if you wait to know everything, you don't know it yet. You haven't done it yet. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because we hear in a lot of the sort of like the self-help world, one of the big things that you see on posters and stuff like this is, you know,

if you don't know where you're going, you're like, that's exactly where you'll end up. Or like you have to have a really well-defined end point for you to be able to take anything because then, you know, like the rest of your time is, you know, you spend all your time plotting your way to that end point. I've never found that to be reality. You know, like there's that rare person where they're like five years old, I'm going to be a veterinarian. Right. And then we hold that person up as sort of, you know, like this is the example of what we're supposed to be. But I don't think I've ever had a conversation with maybe not ever, but the vast majority of people. It's like kind of stumbling my way through.

And isn't it interesting that we think the other way is the norm? Meanwhile, the majority of the population is having a different experience. Yeah. But I think it's sort of like, there's this really fine line. I'm curious what you think about this between sort of like stumbling mindlessly and stumbling with intention. I agree. And I think with the intention, so here's the thing, you're stumbling mindlessly when you're not being intentional. And when, so like with the writing stuff, like I knew I was a good writer. It wasn't like I was going to suddenly become a fly fishing expert. I'd never fly fished, you know, it was like, it made sense for me. And so for me to go, if I loved if I was feeling called to go fly fishing, that would be a different thing. But it wasn't like, you know,

it did, it had some energy for me. And so even though you may think you're stumbling along blindly, when you let your desire and your intuition lead the way, that is as clear as it gets. You may in your conscious mind feel like you have no idea what you're doing, but I don't believe that that is stumbling blindly. Stumbling blindly is ignoring what you know intuitively and pretending you can't have it. So you're going to go be a doctor when you hate being a doctor because that's what your father told you you should should be, you know,

that I completely agree. Yet so many of us take that latter path. You know, it's like we take that path because it's, you know, been prescribed by parents or society or whatever we think supposed to be. Because I do think the idea of just trying a whole bunch of things is kind of shunned. Yeah, I think so too. And but so again, it's like all for experiencing all of life and for doing what you love and feeling things out. And if you want something, so let's say you want a career, or you want a relationship or you want money, if we're going to use my new book as an example, like you got to focus on making money. You can't just do a bunch of crap

and kind of hope it's going to work out. If you want a certain career, you do have to focus to a certain extent and lean back and surrender and see what happens. But I know for myself, I spent well into my 40s not focusing. And especially, gosh, with the money thing, like you're not supposed to focus on money. Talk about something that is shunned.

Holy moly. You tell people you're focusing on making money, they will not speak to you anymore. There's a lot of stuff. Well, especially in the two places where you have deep passions and interests, right? Writing and music. I'm sure there are other places too. I don't want to sort of like pinch and hold you. But those are two worlds where you're like, oh, I just want to make, I really want to make a lot of money. People are like,

that's not what this is about. Not allowed. You're a sellout. Yeah. Did you butt up against that in either of those worlds? You know, honestly, only in my own head. I never let myself think about money because I, you know, that was for people who had no morals and that, you know, that was for people who had no morals and that, you know, I was about the art and I was punk rock. And meanwhile, I'm living in a garage, you know, that was not fun. And I had a lot of my own ego to get out of the way. And yeah, a lot of my opinions and judgments, but I think everybody's got them to a certain

degree. And it floors me that something like money that we use every single, we don't, if even if we don't get out of bed in the morning, we're still spending money. It is a part of our everyday life, whether you like it or not. If you are a human being in modern society on planet earth, you need money. And yet we have criminalized it to a degree that has completely put people in struggle. It's amazing to me. Yeah. I mean, where do you think it comes from?

Do you think it's – well, I do think it's associated with certain career paths also, like the arts. There seems to be like cultural things. But it's bigger than that. Yeah. You know, I've been thinking a lot about that. Like where did it all start? You know, our parents taught us that you have to work hard to make money and that money is the root of all evil or money doesn't grow on trees, you know. But they learned it from their parents.

They learned it from their parents. So where I really think it started, wherever all of our fears start, by some very misguided people who want to control over the mass population. Any kind of fear. And I have researched this not at all. So you can totally call me on this. But I've been sort of thinking like- From the encyclopedia of Jen. Yeah. Don't quote me. That's the only thing I can think of because money's wonderful. It does such wonderful things. You can do for yourself and for others and for the planet. I mean,

why does it get such a bad rap? Certainly there are people who do horrible things in the quest for money, but we never seem to focus on people who do wonderful things for the quest of money and who spend it in wonderful ways and all the joy it brings. We really focus on the bad parts of it. And lo and behold, so many people are in financial struggle. Yeah. I so agree with that. And I sometimes wonder, like, I wonder if the sort of the negative association with money is actually a more recent phenomenon than we think even. Because if you go back to, you know, like my grandparents and, you know, depression era, money mattered.

Like, in fact, the single most important thing wasn't about following your passions. It wasn't about doing meaningful work. It was like, you know what? Times are tough. Your sole job as a parent is to put food on the table and a roof over the head. This is the only thing you work for. That was understood. That was what it was about. And if you could make more, you would do what you needed to do to make more. And something happened between then and now where stuff has shifted. That's a great point.

See, you disproved my non-thought-out theory. That was easy. But you know what also came with that was the belief that you don't get to have fun making money, that it's about hard work and that's all that matters. So then that's fun-free too. Yeah. You know, that keeps people from making money. Like, well, I want to enjoy my life. I don't want it to suck. I'm not going to worry about money. Right. It's like it's an either or. It's not an end. Yep. Yeah. You know, that keeps people from making money. Like, well, I want to enjoy my life. I don't want it to suck. I'm not going to worry about money. Right. It's like, it's an

either or it's not, it's not an end. Yep. Yeah. And I think that's dogged us for a long time. This is so much of what you're about. Yeah. So tell me back into your story. I'm curious. I don't know if you can remember back to this, but like in that party when you, when you're like, I'm a writer, do you remember if you said I write versus I'm a writer? I said, I'm a writer. Do you remember if you said, I write versus I'm a writer? I said, I'm a writer. Yeah. Because I was having a conversation with a friend of mine who's a positive psychology guy. And he said, one of the key definitions of a passion these days

is when you step into it as an identity. Like it's the move between saying, I write versus I am a writer. Oh, yeah. And it's big. And that's when it's really, there's something which is really different about that. Right. Have you felt that?

You know, it's so funny. So I said I was a writer, but again, I was like zombie woman. I didn't know what I... But something inside of you said that. Something inside of me said that. And yet when Don't Sleep With Your Drummer showed up at my house as a published book,

like I remember it came in this manila envelope. I totally remember looking at it on my phone and being like, I couldn't open it. I was so freaked out by it. And it took me years to be able to say I'm a writer consciously. Like my subconscious was like, bitch, you've been writing like you're totally a writer. What's the big deal? I was like, get it away from me. I can't say it with a straight face. It was beginner's luck that I wrote that book and it got published and HBO optioned it. That was total beginner's luck. Right. It could have nothing to do with talent or hard work or years of effort. Or who I am. Yeah. It really took me a long time to do it. It was very interesting. I remember thinking about that a couple of years later. I was like, wow, I can finally say I'm a writer and feel honest about it. Do you remember, was there something that happened that allowed that switch to happen?

Was it just a gradual evolution? It's a maturing, like maturing into it. And I feel like that's the way it is with, you know, today. And with my last book, two people are like, you know, when did you know, you know, when did you make the decision to change your life and go after making money or go after your coaching career or whatever it was? And it never, for me, like some people really have near life experiences where they're like, I am going to die and I have to get my act together.

And they wake up to that. For me, it was honestly just sort of a ripening. near life experiences where they're like, I am going to die and I have to get my act together. And they wake up to that. For me, it was honestly just sort of a ripening. And I really think that is the way it is for most people where after a while you just wake up and start getting your act together. Yeah, I know. Cause I'm always looking for the inciting incident. Sometimes it's not there or it's just a series of like tiny little blips that add up. Well, it's kind of like that whole aha moment thing where you have to hear something over and over and over. And then all of a sudden the light bulb goes on. You don't know why. You suddenly get it. And I think that really is the way it is with most life transformations.

You get it. I so agree. And I think it's – there's something that happens which changes your beliefs. I know this is something that you talk about and write about a lot, right, is the idea of your beliefs and sort of how they play into your willingness and ability to go after certain things in your life. And maybe sometimes there is one big, deeply emotional and jarring moment that flips that belief switch. But maybe another time, it's like it's slowly shifting, slowly shifting. And then there's this tiny little thing. That's the last thing that makes you say, I need to let go.

I always compare it to because I remember one time breaking up with a particular boyfriend of mine. And, you know, I was in it and that was my reality. And we had this thing. And then one day I was at the laundromat. I was like, I can break up with him. I was so miserable in this relationship. I mean, and it was so stupid. Like my friends have been telling me to do that for months. But for some reason, I got it. And I think it's that way with every, I really do think it is that way for most things in life. And I

think it's like what you were talking about before, how people feel like they're supposed to know exactly what they want to do. I think people are looking also for this moment when everything changes and the light goes on. For the most part, most people, you just sort of wake up. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, which is then everyone, people listening to this, they'll be like, well, when's it going to happen to me? Right. You got to keep showing up for work.

Like for me, I was reading every self-help book under the sun. I knew I wanted to change. I didn't know exactly what it was going to look like, or, you know, mine was around money, but. Right. Was this after the first book, after you started getting that directionality? Oh yeah. So this was, I wrote the first book, then I wrote another book, you know, and you can be a quote unquote successful writer. And I was, you know, I was getting published by real publishers, but I was not making any money at all on those first two books. And I was still freelance writing, hustling my ass off, living in LA, just slogging through it. And, you know. Was there a voice at that time that kind of just says like, this is what it looks like to be a

writer? Yeah. Yes, there was. That you don't make money as a writer. Absolutely. Yep. And then I realized because I really believed that then I got to do something else. There was part of me that's like, I am unavailable to be this broke. It was boring. You know, it was boring. Being broke is so boring. So I hate being bored. And that's when, so I moved from Silver Lake to Venice Beach into a converted garage, you know, and I remember moving into this place and like going to look at the apartment and being like, oh my God, what is my problem? I think at the time when I moved in, I was in my like 39 or 40. And I was like, I am mortified that this is it. This is what the best Jen Sincero could do at 40. I'm moving into a freaking garage, but I had to live by the beach.

I was like, I don't care if I have to live underneath a car. I'll just do that. But I was really disappointed. And I kept saying no to the apartment, no to the apartment. But I ended up taking it. And it was the smallest apartment I've ever lived in. And I lived in New York City for eight years. So that's saying something.

That's saying a lot right there, actually. Yeah. I don't even think it was 200 square feet. How big is a one car garage? But I did it because I wanted to be over there and being by the beach changed my life, honestly, because LA is not my town. I do not like it there. And I have amazing friends and I would not be where I am today if it wasn't for LA. So I'm so grateful to LA, but I just don't like it there. So you end up by the beach. What's the thing that's different about that? I'm a big hippie and I love walking on the ocean and hearing the waves crash and the

sunsets over the ocean every night. I mean, what's better than that? Seeing the sunset over the ocean. For me anyway, it was really, really big. I rode my bike everywhere. I didn't have to drive in LA traffic. I loved it. Yeah.

How much do you think your physical setting affects you? I think it's enormous, personally. Because I think the same thing. I think so many of us, we don't really think about it that much. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's why a big part of the quote-unquote work you do to change your life is to change your surroundings, whatever you can. Like, so even back in the day, I wrote about this too, just like

when I was living in the garage, even though it was by the beach and I was so happy, it was a freaking garage. So I like prettied up my garage with, you know, I didn't have money, but I certainly could give it a new paint job or hang up some pictures and get curtains. If your spirits are low and you're feeling dragged down, do whatever you can to lift yourself up if you want to change your life. Because to come from a place of depleted energy, it's impossible. And you don't need to be rich to do that at the beginning. You can make little changes. And music is a huge motivator for me too. So I put a moratorium on sad music. I was like, I'm changing, seriously.

Like I was just telling somebody like, I love Neil Young, but he bums me out. So I made that off limits when I was changing my life. I can listen to Neil now and be okay. Right, it's like these are the acceptable genres and like here's the beat count that's gonna work for this season of my life. Right.

And no jazz. Right. It's just like the little, you know, fake Kenny G type of jazz. No offense to Kenny G. I'm sure it's great. Yeah. It's funny because I grew up down the block. The end of my block was beach. And I never really, just outside of New York, actually Long Island, Port Washington. So I didn't realize until much later in life, how much being by the water mattered to me. It doesn't matter if I'm in a big house or a big apartment or anything fancy, but just knowing that I can somewhere nearby, I can sense that there's water, I don't have to be in it. There's something about that that kind of drops my heartbeat and my blood pressure.

And it's like a place where I just go to touch stone. I think there, it seems like it was probably that way for you too. There's just something about certain environments and geographic settings that just really make a difference on a level that we don't acknowledge very often. I totally agree. And I think it's very primal also because now I live in New Mexico. Nobody in my family has ever lived in New Mexico. I have no history with it.

And the second I stepped foot into that state, I was like, I'm home. That's so interesting. Yeah. And there's no town. I live in Santa Fe now. I used to live in Albuquerque. Like, Santa Fe is okay. Albuquerque is eh.

But it's New Mexico. There's just something about it. Yep. It's kind of annoying. I wish I could go somewhere else, but this is my place. Let me go. I know. Yeah, that's so cool.

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. So you end up, you do a second book, momentum is building, but at the same time, you're going through this thing where you're like, stuff isn't right. And what starts to bring you out of that? So I'm in the garage, I'm living at the beach, and again, just like 40 years old, unimpressed by my financial progress. I don't know. I mean, one thing that did change it, but this isn't the pivotal moment, but I went to India by myself around that time. And the thought of traveling all the way to the other side of the planet by myself scared the living crap out of me. I would wake up in the middle of the night in a puddle of sweat.

What am I trying to prove? Why don't I just cancel my ticket? I don't want to go. I don't want to go. But of course, inside me, I'm like, totally want to go. And I made myself go, even though it literally was one of the most terrifying things I personally have ever done. And then of course, like the second I get into the international terminal of the airport, I'm like, bring it on. And then I went and I had the greatest six weeks of my whole life. It was transformative. And I thought when I got back to my little garage that I'd be so grateful to have anywhere to live after, you know, some of the poverty that I saw in India and some of the stuff I saw there. I'd never seen stuff like that before.

And I had the exact opposite reaction. I got home and it was more about overcoming a fear of mine and doing something that turned me on to that level that was also equally as terrifying, I came back a completely different person. I was like, if I have to spend one more week in this damn garage, I'm going to start screaming and never stop. And I started looking for apartments, still had no money, like traveled out of a backpack, scraped together money out of the couch cushions to pay for the ticket. Like, don't even know how I pulled it off. But my decision to change my life at that point was full throttle. You know, Venice Beach,

California, not a cheap place to live these days. And this was back right when it was starting to turn and everything was, I mean, crappy, crappy one bedroom apartments for $2,000 a month. Anyway, so, but I had decided, and i'll never forget i wrote a list i taught one of the reasons i moved into the garage i was like in order to get a place in venice you got to know people in venice so i was like i'll just get there i'll live in this damn garage and i'll meet people so i wrote an email to all the people that i knew in venice beach i was like this is what i want i want at least a one bedroom that doesn't have a car parked in it. And I wrote out a list of everything. It's very specific.

Not just the one. And then, and I said, and ideally 10 feet away from where I live now, because I loved my neighbors. And the next day, my upstairs neighbor. So I was, it was this funny house. It was almost like a lollipop. Like I was in a tiny garage blow and there was this big house on top of it.

So my upstairs neighbor who had this deck and it was like windows and sunny and beautiful. She's like, listen, I'm moving in a couple of months and I would love to save some money. So do you want to just switch and I'll take the tiny place and you take this place? And it was only like $200 more expensive to live upstairs than I was. So I got it. It was 10 feet away and it was everything I wanted. And you're like, huh, that's interesting. Yep. And then from there, I was hell bent to just keep going. So maybe India was my big switch. I don't know. I think I was on my way because I don't think I would have gone if I hadn't already made the decision to do big, scary things, but it definitely helped.

It was a tipping point. It kind of was. Yeah. And so then from there, then everything started changing from there. What mattered to you at that point? Like what were you chasing at that point? Freedom. I hated feeling like I couldn't do things I wanted to do because I didn't have the freaking money. It made me, it was freedom and also feeling like I knew deep down that I could do great things, that I could do greater things than what I was doing and just wanting to be the kind of person that could do whatever the hell she wanted, you know, and to really see how good it could get instead of being a victim and a whiner.

And for me, it was, I think the main thing was about personal accomplishment. Potential. Yeah. And frustration with feeling like, come on, really? I mean, was there a voice in your head that kind of was saying, Jen, you know that there's stuff inside of you that's so much better than what you're putting out into the world? Absolutely. Absolutely.

I think so many of us have that. That's why I call my book, You're a Badass. Yeah. Because everybody's a badass. They are, like, really. I'm trying to remember. It was a couple of years ago now, maybe. We did a survey among a bunch of different people.

We're kind of like, what's the one biggest thing that if you could change, you would? And the single biggest pain point was people feeling like they were not, quote, living into their potential, and they had no idea how to close that gap. It's so excruciating. I mean, to read that, I remember reading it. And I kind of knew that that would be part of it. But to see that that was the single biggest pain point for so many people. Yeah.

And I think the reason it's so excruciating, and it's going to get a little woo-woo, so hold on, but you're given your desires when you're born. I really do believe that. And it's sort of this pre – like I'm a writer, whether I like it or not. I actually don't really enjoy the process of writing. I'm kind of annoyed about that. You're going to have to draw a different straw, man. Bad mood about my programming. But – and you've got these desires in you and I love to travel and I love adventure and I love variety.

And, you know, my older brother likes to paint his house and never leave the country. And, you know, I remember one of the funniest conversations we ever had. It was – I moved to Spain when I was right out of college with a bunch of friends from college. And we just found out we were going to Barcelona. And we're so excited. And I call him. I was like, I have amazing news. And he's like, so do I. And I was like, he's like, you go first.

I was like, I'm moving to Spain with my friends. He's like, that's awesome. I was like, what's your news? He goes, I just bought a washer and dryer that fit perfectly in the closet. And it was like, we were equally as excited. Double score. Totally. He would hate my life. And I would hate to live his I would hate to live his and everybody's happy, right?

And I do think that's part of our DNA. And so because it really is who you are, your desires really are, they make up who you are. And when you have the audacity to let yourself be who you are fully, I feel like a totally – I have crappy days and stuff happens. It's not like all perfect all the time, but what a different feeling than squashing myself and deciding that I can't have, or focusing on all the reasons why it'll never happen, or, you know, defending that the economy sucks and artists can't make money and it's not okay to make money because bad. It's like, what a snore compared to what's out there. And I think

intuitively people know that. You know that you're meant to do what you're meant to do. You know, all of nature is meant to flourish. Really? Yeah. Well, I think we know that we're meant to do what we're meant to do. So I totally agree with that. I think we do all have that sense within us. And I wonder if the struggle is, but what is it? Definitely. And so there's two, I got two answers for that one. One of them is a lot of times you actually know you've just decided it's not possible. Okay. You've decided you can't make money at it.

That's usually the biggest one. Like I know what I want to do, but I can't make money at it. Completely agree. Yeah. So we just deny it because it's easier to do that than to deal with the fact that we're not doing it because of money.

Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know because I do know, but I can't make money on it. So next, instead of this is my one and only life on planet Earth is me and I'm going to figure out how to do this thing I love to do and make money at it because this is my only chance. So that's one. And I think that is actually a hell of a lot more common.

And then sometimes you really don't know. And that's where I think it's really important to start taking baby steps and just, okay, so you don't have to know the entire thing, sort of like what we were talking about before. What do you know? Find a job doing something that feels kind of okay, that's sort of kind of in the direction of something that feels right. And then you get that job and you start doing that thing. You're like, oh, I hate that, but I love this part of it. And then you've gotten some more information and you've met some more people. But sitting around thinking in your head, trying to figure it out without taking action is a hellhole that I lived in for decades. Decades.

I so agree with that. Yeah. I think because we're like, well, I'm smart. I should be able to reason this through, right? It's like, no. Absolutely. And the cosmic joke is you've never done it before. Like you're trying to figure out something you've never even done before.

How the hell are you supposed to know if you like it or not? Yeah. I remember a couple of years ago sitting in a big event hearing this guru on design thinking. And he said the two most dangerous words to innovation and creativity are prove it. Prove it. Because anything genuinely new and different and innovative is not capable of being proven before you do it. I love that. So it's like, why wouldn't that apply to life?

Yeah. Well, that's that whole thing about I'll believe it when I see it. And when you're really the innovator, you have to believe it first and then you see it. Did I do that right? Yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. When I see it, I'll believe it. I can't remember. But basically you have to believe in it. It's like, we're going to put a man on the moon. Like I believe that can happen even though I've never seen it and I'm going to do everything I can to

make that happen. That's how we get a man on the moon. If you wait around for, you know, to see it somehow first, it won't ever happen. This is something that you speak and write about also, which is sort of like the idea of like once you start to get that sense of directionality, you're like, that's the thing I want to be or create, or that's the place I want to go. Get clear about that when you can get clear about it and don't worry so much about the how because it will reveal itself over time. Because you don't know how. You've never done it before.

So shut up and just do what you know how to do and take big scary risks all the time. So you talk to people about this like all the time. Have you found that one of the big resistance points to taking that first step and the second step is that people want to see the entire trajectory before they take the first step? Totally. The unknown scares people more than anything on Earth. And meanwhile, we're on a planet in outer space flying through, like, there is no known. Come on.

Yeah, and that is the puzzle is you don't get to feel comfortable if you want to change your life. You just don't because you're comfortable. That's why we call it our comfort zone. So people stay in relationships that are horrible where they're getting beaten up because it's familiar and it's known. They're miserable. Their life's in danger, but they'd rather do that than leave and experience being alone

or whatever it is. So a lot of our lives, we're kind of like letting ourselves get beat up. I was by being broke all the time and feeling squashed by myself and having my potential just to have a big wet blanket on top of it. doing things I had no idea how the hell to do because I'd look like an idiot. Or the big one for me was investing money in hiring people who could teach me stuff about money. That was really one of the biggest things I did that scared the living hell out of me. How much of that was about money and how much of it about was saying, I don't know everything. I need help.

Oh, equal amounts, I'd say. Yeah, it was both. Actually, by that time, I was totally ready for somebody to tell me what the hell to do. I was like, good, you figure it out because I can't. Please take all my money, take everything I own. So it really, because this is a question that comes up a lot, right? Because folks will often say like, okay, so there are these two things. One is we hate to be vulnerable.

But at a certain point, you have to say, I don't know. Right. Like put on the beginner's mind hat and say, I surrender. Show me the way. We all do. It doesn't matter how smart you are. Nobody gets out of that scenario. And then the other thing is the money side of it. And I think the thing that often comes up for a lot of people is like, if I had money to pay for all of these things, I wouldn't need all of these things. Correct. Talk me through this. So waiting until you have the money is the fastest way to wake up at 95 being like, whoops, forgot to live my life. So for me, I'm going to convert a garage. I'm making, I think I was making maybe 30 grand a year. And I decide I'm going to change my life. I come back from India. I'm going to every free money-making seminar I can get my hands on. I am reading every self-help book under the sun.

I am learning about money. I'm obsessed. And through kind of a long story, I meet this woman who's a life coach. And this was back in the day when there weren't life coaches. This was sort of like the girl band in the early days. It's like there were five. There were five life coaches. And anyway, and she was somebody who specialized in helping women entrepreneurs make money. And she herself had had her electricity turned off and was now making, you know, multiple six figures. And I just really liked her. I thought she was really smart. And she's like, I know I can help you. I believe in

you. I see the fire. And my fee is, I think it was $7,000, which for me at the time was at least a quarter of my annual income, if not more. And I was just like, oh my God. And I knew I had to work with her. So I went in, I was already in credit card debt and I took out two more credit cards. I don't know why they gave them to me, but I took out two more credit cards and put it on more credit card debt, which is the big bad wolf in our culture. Like you can do anything, but do not go into credit card debt. And I don't recommend it unless you're serious as a heart attack, which I was. And I was like, I'm fricking doing it. Paid her the money, called her five minutes later, begged her for the money back. And she was like, it'm freaking doing it. Paid her the money, called her five minutes later, begged her for the money back. And she was like, it's probably the most important $7,000 you will ever spend.

And it really was. I mean, I ended up tripling my income within the next three months. We started an online business for me coaching other writers on how to write and sell their nonfiction book proposals, which to me, you know, not the sexiest gig on earth. And I was a rock and roller. I was an artist. And I was like, but I wanted money. And I was serious about it. I was like, bring it on. I'll be a freaking cheeseball online marketer. And it worked. And again, I didn't know what I was doing. Like I'd never coached people before. I knew nothing about online marketing. I didn't even know if I wanted to teach people how to write books. But I did know that I was unavailable to be living the way I was living anymore and that I really wanted to make money. And so from that, I started coaching writers.

And most people aren't not writing because they suck at writing. It's because they don't feel they have the right to their opinions. They don't feel like anybody's going to care what they have to say. They feel vulnerable and exposed so I ended up totally life coaching these people I mean we never talked about grammar and sentence structure and that's how I found out and I was like this is fun like I love this stuff about self-transformation and I don't know I'm on this whole quest and I don't know where it came from. Like it, I hate thinking that people don't love themselves and feel ashamed of who they are.

I could cry right now talking about that. I don't know where that came from. I'm not that nice a person. Like, I don't know. I don't know why I made a quest, but I know the second I started seeing changes in people and seeing that I could help them with that, I was all over it.

And I never would have found that out if I hadn't started that. Yeah. Just one step. How does that lead to you writing a column about sex advice? That was the second book. So the first book was Don't Sleep With Your Drummer. Wrote it when I was in LA. Second book was The Straight Girl's Guide to Sleeping With Chicks. And that happened because when I was on tour with Don't Sleep With Your Drummer, I brought a friend of mine who was a photographer to sort of like videotape the tour. She was a lesbian and we ended up sleeping together. I was like, oh my God, am I a lesbian now?

What's going on with me? And so I wrote that book because I couldn't find a book out there. There was lots of books on bisexuality and lesbianism and gay and all that. But there was nothing for somebody who was not ready to sign on the dotted line for, you know, Senate for a new sexual identity, who was still figuring stuff out, sort of exploring it. And that's why I wrote that book. And that, you know, it's funny, that was controversial. And the title of that book offends so many people. And I'm just like, this dopey straight girl, like going into this highly politicized arena of

sexuality that I knew nothing about. It was a huge eye opener, but it was awesome. That also really helped me understand how much I could talk about shame, man. If we're going to help people get off shame and not being allowed to be who you are in the realm of sexuality, there's no deeper well than that, I think. Yeah. No, I mean, especially in this culture. I think like in American culture, when you look at European culture, different parts of the world, there's not nearly as much. Americans are good.

Yeah. Pretty buttoned down. I wonder if that's changing. Do you have a sense? I think so. I think the kids these days are much more fluid. Definitely. I see great progress there. I hope. And then I think all the porn on the internet is doing horrible things as well. in a way where it just builds up over time where you're like, this isn't working. There's your exposure. All of a sudden you're writing, you're getting paid to write, you've got books out. Now you're actually being coached and learning how to actually build businesses around the world of writing. Tell me where the idea for sort of your big breakout move. The big breakout book. Breakout. So you ended up writing this book called? You Are a Badass. Right. When you were writing that, first, how did that deal come about? Well, I had an agent at that point. Straight Girls Guide did, what was it? Straight Girls

Guide came out on Simon & Schuster. So after Don't Sleep With Your Drummer, I got my agent and he sold Straight Girls Guide to the idea to that book to Simon & Schuster. So I had, you know, I was a real writer at that point, I can say it out loud. Still broke as a joke. And then because I started working on my money stuff and had been working with this life coach and working on my woo-woo and changing my focus and being, you know, in gratitude and working all the mantras and stuff. I realized that all these books out there were amazing. There's so many brilliant teachers out there, but none of them were funny. And none of them use curse words and stories. And I just felt like, God, I would love to read something that's entertaining while it's given me the info

I want. So I was like, well, I got to write that one for myself too. And so I wrote it for myself, but I also realized that I know a lot of people in my life who made a lot of fun of me when I was reading all these self-help books and going to these cheesy seminars and stuff. And I was like, I want them to get the message too. And maybe if I call it something like you are a badass, they'll pick it up because it's edgier and it's not quite so embarrassing to be caught reading, right? Because it's kind of cool. So I was trying to expose these people to that information as well. Yeah. When you were writing it, did you have a sense that you're like this, like this, or not really? That it was going to be as big as it is? Yeah.

Hell no. Oh my God. I am still awake. I still wake up in the morning. I'm like, we're still on the New York Times bestseller list. It's been over a year. It's insane. It's yeah. I'm so grateful. And I am equally amazed. I think it's a great book. I mean, I think it's good, but. Agreed. And I love the fact because it is, I mean, there is the whole genre. There's no lack of books in the space of self-help. So yeah, it is really interesting. When you write for that whole thing, it's like, how do I create something that actually has value and is distinct in some way?

It's just not adding to everything else. It got turned down by every publisher. Oh yeah, we couldn't sell that thing at all. And that's exactly what they said to us. Even though my proposal, I was like, but you guys, don't you get it? I'm not saying anything that's brand spanking new. I'm saying it in a new way. And with self-help, you got to hear stuff over and over and over before a light goes on.

What was the reason it was getting turned down? Because the last thing the world needs is another self-help book. Oh, and that was the rejection letter we got from everybody. And I was like, you're not listening to me. Like, I'm just saying it in a new way. Like I know. And then, and then running press took us on. And I mean, out of the gate, it started. So it was like this magical, I call it the yellow snowball because it just keeps rolling and getting bigger and bigger. But it's like, clearly it touched on something because if you say, okay, so there are a lot of ideas that have been shared a lot, but there's something different about the way it's being conveyed that it's making people be like, oh my God, I need to read this and I need to buy copies for friends because that's how stuff like this happens with the book.

You know what I think it might be also? And I did not plan this, but I think because we're in, and I just thought of this right now so you can discredit this new theory of mine as well. I think because social media is such a huge presence and everybody's private is public and everybody's are BFF

and we're all part of each other's intimate lives. I think the fact that I wrote a self-help book and I'm not a guru, you know, that I'm like, yeah, I, you know, lived in a garage and I, you know, display all my embarrassing everything's on the table and then show people how I cleaned it up and improved my life. I think that maybe that struck a chord with sort of the mentality that we're in right now. And I don't think people were doing that before. And the timing was perfect. And maybe that's why. That's my theory. What do you think? I totally buy it.

Oh, good. Awesome. I sold one to you, finally. I'm on board with it. It makes sense. I so agree. I think we're looking less for sages on high, and we're just looking for somebody who's like, dude, can I just tell you what happened to me? And I completely screwed this up. And then I just did this weird thing that I didn't even think through and having a conversation with you and you're not preaching to me. And my sense is like that's, we want that now. Like we've been preached to. I can get preachy too if you want. I'm really good at it. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. All right, so you write this book. It explodes, takes over the world. This launches you and your career to a whole different level. You got a new book out now, which takes that and kind of builds, and it focuses on money,

which feels like it's almost coming full circle to you emerging from Venice. Like why this addition to the Jen Sincero body of work? It had to be money. Like now, because now I have money as a writer. I am actually making really good money as a writer, which was quote unquote impossible. And the whole reason I got started on the self-help party train was because of money. For me, that was always my big struggle. So I felt I could write about this better than almost anybody because I'm really good at being broke.

I know I'm really good at making money. So I really felt like if my broke ass can do it, anybody can. So I feel like I had a lot of important stuff to share with people who felt the way I did with it. I mean, I really was so stuck. I mean, I remember being in a Mexican restaurant with my friend in LA, sobbing. And she's like, what is your problem? Why are you basically being such a loser? And I was like, I know, but I don't know. I know. I don't know. And I just couldn't see it. And I was in

it for decades. And I know how painful that is and how much it sucks and how it feels to know that you could be doing so much better. And you're just freaking out and your life is flying by. And you're seeing all these other people out there who aren't nearly as fabulous as you raking in the dough, living lives they love, doing cool stuff. And I feel really strongly about it. And I also, you know, I want the good people of Earth to make a lot of money. I feel like if I pull up behind one more rusted ass Subaru with a Visualize World Peace sticker and, you know, an Obama sticker, it's like, come on, guys, let's turn this ship around. Like we need the altruistic, big hearted people of Earth to make a lot of money because that's

power. And that's how your voice can get heard. And that's how the things that light up your heart happen on this earth really is by having money. It's not everything, but it sure as hell helps. Yeah. And it's funny because I'm sure there are going to be people listening to that and being like, but it's not like life is not money. So I want to come back to the part of the conversation we had earlier, which is that this is not money instead of power, instead of freedom, instead of passion, instead of – this is yes to all. This is yes, pursue the deepest part of yourself. Yes, pursue your desire. Yes, pursue the things that make you be a lit up human being and contribute to the world fiercely and be generous and rise above and bring people with you. And there's a vehicle that we all have access to that will

allow us to do all of that potentially more effectively. And it seems like for me, that's what it translates to you when we talk about money. This is a mechanism for you. Yeah. It's just a tool. Why does everybody get so uppity about, but it's about loving other people and giving and being of service and helping old ladies cross the street. It's like, yes, it certainly is. And it's about money. If you're a human being, like it or not, it's not an either or it just makes me really mad because it really stops people in their tracks and it's such a dopey argument.

Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I've had similar conversations with folks and one of the things that has seemed to sort of ease the conversation is like, what have you thought of it as a conduit? You're like, you're kind of like, you're the pass through. Like you have some sort of, you've cultivated some sort of ability to be able to offer value that people want to then pay for and you maybe pay for a lot, you know, so you can sort of amass a certain amount of money and then be a conduit to then – you don't have to hold on to it. Like root it to whatever causes or other people or organizations you feel are going to do the most good in the world. Which is interesting.

It's like people tend to feel a little more comfortable when you kind of frame it as. You have to do something for these people. Because I can say I was one of them. But money. Okay. So that whole thing, money is currency and currency is energy. It's just a flowing energy. There's no reason to have a protest about it.

Yeah. You know? And I think it's the whole like it's an end, not a, you know, this is not money instead of all these really deeply meaningful things. Of course, yeah. This is a power tool. It is. Power tool of love.

Going back to your original crotch video. Yes, exactly. Power tool. Oh my God. Everything comes full circle. I'm serious. Like, I never connected power tool of Love with money. Okay, you've just... Everything's different. That video is getting taken off my website. It's

going to be on the front page now. I am the connector. Oh my God, that's hilarious. So we're getting the 55-minute warning here. So let's come full circle. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer out the phrase to you, to live a good life, what comes up? Listen to your heart, grasshopper. Do, you know, really get quiet and listen to what you love to do and what's important to what, to who you are and really try and block out what other people are doing, what other people think you should be doing and trust that what lights you up, lights you up for a reason.

And that reason is that you're on earth to share that with everybody and to go be the biggest badass at that, that you can be. Thank you. Yeah. Hey, before you leave, if you'd love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Patrice Washington about wealth, what it is and what it's not. You'll find a link to Patrice's episode wealth, what it is, and what it's not. You'll find a link to Patrice's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and

follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.