Good Life Project - Jenna Kutcher | How “Are” You? No, Really.
Episode Date: June 20, 2022When's the last time you've answered the question, "How are you?" honestly? Whether small talk is a good thing, a bad thing or just a thing is a matter of passionate debate. But, the bigger issue... is - when it is time to get real. Both with other people, and also with ourselves? And what are we losing, what parts of ourselves, our relationships, our lives, are we forsaking when we hide behind the facade of social propriety? There comes a time when it's crucial to move beyond the surface level if we want to invite deeper and more fulfilled connections into our lives and find a community that will support and uplift us. So today, I'm joined by Jenna Kutcher to talk more about this idea of diving deeper below the surface in all parts of life to spark meaningful connections and, ultimately, a more authentic and rich life. Jenna Kutcher is a born-and-raised Minnesota wife, mom, and wildly-successful educational entrepreneur who aims for two things daily that I can totally respect: helping others wake up to life and staying in comfy pants. After leaving a mainstream, yet largely life-sucking career that was a complete misfit for her, she found her way into art, photography, and eventually creative entrepreneurship. And, she began to realize, life is just so much bigger than she imagined, and success was not what she’s always been told. And, as is her bent, the minute she learns something she loves to share, so she founded and hosts the now top-rated The Goal Digger podcast, where Jenna’s helped thousands redefine success and chase dreams through her decade-long work as a leading online educator. Her first book, How Are You Really?: Living Your Truth One Answer At A Time, is this deeply open guidebook to being alive that's chocked full of both provocative invitations to rethink life, as well as detailed guidance to lead you forward in a way that moves closer to your heartbeat, your people, and the good life that awaits you.There are too many fascinating nuggets that touch on so many elements of living a good life throughout this conversation, like the importance of asking for help, how to navigate change in life and business while remaining grounded, and the difference asking that age-old question with a simple tweak, "How are you, really?" could make in all our relationships. So if you're on a mission to own your life rather than the other way around and feel more alive, good things are in store for you in this chat with Jenna. You can find Jenna at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Amanda Palmer about being open, vulnerable, and real.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book Sparked | My New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.AquaTruAir Doctor Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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The moment that I whispered the first, I need help, was like the moment that my eyes were
open to what help can bring and how help can change my life. And asking for help is really,
I think, like working out. It's like the more you do it, the easier it gets. But I think for
a lot of people, that initial, it's like pride's utter chokehold of like, I've got this, I've got
this, I've got this until I really don't is scary.
Okay, so here's my question. When was the last time you answered the question,
how are you? Honestly, whether small talk is a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing,
it's a kind of a matter of passionate debate these days. But the bigger issue,
especially this question brings it up when it's time to get real, what do we do? Do we bail or do we actually open up to it, both with other people and also with ourselves? And what are we
losing? What parts of ourselves, our relationships, our lives are we forsaking when we hide behind
the facade of social propriety? There comes this time when it's crucial to move beyond the surface
level. If we want to invite deeper and more fulfilled connections into our lives and find community that will
support and unlift us.
So today, I'm joined by Jenna Kutcher to talk about this idea and so much more, the
notion of diving deeper below the surface in all parts of life to spark meaningful connections
and ultimately a more authentic and rich life.
Jenna is a born and raised Minnesotan, wife, mom, wildly successful educational entrepreneur,
and aims for two things daily that I can totally respect, helping others wake up to life and
staying in comfy pants. After leaving a mainstream yet largely life-sucking career that was a complete
misfit for her, she found her way into art and then
photography and eventually creative entrepreneurship. And she began to realize that life is just so much
bigger than she imagined and success was not what she'd always been told. And as is her bent,
the minute she learned something, she loves to share. So she founded and hosts the now top-rated
Gold Digger podcast, where Jen has helped thousands really redefine and reimagine success and chase dreams through her decade-long work as a leading online educator. full of both provocative invitations to rethink life, as well as detailed guidance to lead you
forward in a way that moves you closer to your heartbeat, your people, and the good life that
awaits you. There are too many fascinating nuggets that touch on so many elements of living a good
life throughout this conversation. We kept bouncing into different topics and ideas,
and we follow the threads as we often do. And there were just sort of these light bulb moments
all over, like the importance of asking for help, how to navigate
change, not just in life, but in business while remaining grounded. And the difference in asking
that age old question with a simple tweak, how are you really could make in all of our
relationships. So if you're in a mission to own your life rather than the other way around,
feel more alive, good things are in store in this chat with Jenna. So excited
to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here.
It has the biggest display ever.
It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,
making it even more comfortable on your wrist,
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And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,
getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.
The Apple Watch Series X.
Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.
Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.
Charge time and actual results will vary.
Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.
The pilot's a hitman.
I knew you were going to be fun.
On January 24th.
Tell me how to fly this thing.
Mark Wahlberg.
You know what the difference between me and you is?
You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.
You open your book, or pretty close to the opening, by talking about how much small talk
drains you. And in fact, that's kind of like the source of the name of the book, the title of the
book. How are you really? Can we just get past all that stuff? And it was interesting because I had
a different reaction to that. So I happen to agree. Don't love that. I'm also not good at it. I'm an
introvert. So maybe that's part of the reason why. But I had this other reaction, which surprised me,
which is that I was wondering if that was a cultural thing. If small talk was actually
a distinctly US thing, because I have friends who have grown up in different countries, especially countries where they've lived in conflict for their entire lives.
And when I talk to those friends, and it's not just them, it's their families,
it's their friends culturally, they don't small talk.
It's almost like, and I was wondering if there's something about a lack of a sense of urgency that
has sort of been a part of a lot of our experience of upbringing that sort of like lays the foundation and lets us know, oh, we have time to just kind of meander
around for a while before we just get to it. I'm curious what you think of that.
Oh, I love that. I've never thought about that, Jonathan. And I think what's fascinating to me is
there are people that love small talk. My husband, Drew, is one of them. He could small talk with anyone about anything.
And it's actually something I love about him because he can connect and find a point of
connection with anyone, whether it's the barista or Bob at the gym.
But for me, what I think happens a lot of times, and really, if we look at it in a cultural perspective, I think a lot of times small talk is the basis of some of our relationships.
So there are relationships in ouralities or there's breaks in understanding
that create these safe spaces in the small talk that don't allow us to get to anything that truly
matters. And for me, it's so painful because it's almost like you're in a room with people,
but you feel lonely because you feel like they don't know who you are.
Yeah. It's a really interesting frame to bring to it. And it was interesting that you said, because they don't know who you are rather than you don't know
who they are. Yeah. We have such a deep need to be known. And I think we put that on the back shelf
because we step into a room and we want other people to feel that way. And we sometimes discount
the need in ourselves because it feels like selfish or too egocentric. Absolutely. You know, it's interesting because we live in the
Midwest. We're in small town Minnesota. And I've always kind of felt like a black sheep in the work
that I do because there isn't a vibrant entrepreneurial, specifically digital
entrepreneurial community here. And I've always kind of felt like I'm on an island. Like I am just doing this work by myself.
Nobody understands it. Nobody gets it. But I lived that way for a while until I shifted
my perspective. And I was like, I'm not giving people a chance to understand what I do. I'm not
even giving them an invitation to explain what I do. And I think we do this a lot where we just assume,
oh, you wouldn't even get it. So I'm not even going to get into it. But what if we shifted
that and we were like, let me help you understand just so that you can be a piece of this part of
my identity or who I am. And I think that's kind of that difference between like, how are you and
like leaning in and like feeling safe to be like, how are you really? It's like,
how can we lean into those invitations that allow people to, again, know us, but also invite
them to feel fully known as well? There's an assumption I feel like is buried in what you
just shared too, which is that they're not interested enough to actually engage in a conversation where I sort of
like explain, like they give you the time to actually sit there and learn, oh, wow, like this
is what this is and this is what you're doing. This is how it works. We're almost assuming that
they're seeing us as not worthy of that amount of time and attention. So we just shut it down
rather than ever testing that assumption. Yes, absolutely. And it's interesting because there have been times in my life where someone
will ask like, how are you? And you think to yourself like, do they really care or do they
really want to know? And a lot of times it's like with our human interactions being so limited in
this day and age, a lot of times your U know, your UPS driver does not want to hear
how you are really doing while they're dropping off a package. But there is this responsibility
for us to create these opportunities, to have these conversations and to invite these conversations.
And I think it's one of those things where it's almost like, and you and I have had conversations
like this in real life, specifically in vans, in the back of vans with our family members, where it's like,
I go and you go. And it's like the more vulnerable, it's like peeling back the layers of
the onion. It's almost like I dare you to go forward and share what's really going on.
And it's almost like you have to be willing to go first. And in that going first, you risk them not
being able or willing to try, but you also open yourself up for this way
deeper potential. And I think oftentimes we just write that off without really trying.
No, so agree with you. I feel like we think, oh, if we don't go there, like if we reveal
enough of ourselves so that we know we'll quote fit in or belong, then everything's cool. And we get to surround ourselves with people, but it's not actually the capital W we that we're in relationship with.
It's like the facade. It's the illusion of what we think will be accepted that we present. And
that's why we can be surrounded by all these people and still feel utterly alone.
Yes. There's this line in my book that I love about loneliness because I really think... So there's a study that is 80% of those under the age of 18 and 40% of adults over 65 years
of age report being lonely right now.
And according to that study, it says loneliness is perceived social isolation, not objective
social isolation.
And I think it's so incredible because it's like the opposite of
loneliness isn't just connection. The opposite of loneliness is being known. And it's that
connection with people who truly know you. And so I think it's fascinating because we often think
about how we are more connected now than ever. But it's this false sense of connection. And it's this false sense of
friendship, this digital world that tricks us that we are highly connected. But it's almost
like when you walk into a room and you know that if you like exited stage left, no one would even
know you were there or had been there. I feel like that's kind of how we're walking through life
because it's like we could be surrounded by people,
but if we aren't feeling like a whole person,
it's not a true experience that results in connection.
Yeah, so agree.
You know, we've heard so many different ways
people have phrased the fact
that we are more connected than ever before.
But I actually feel like it's not true.
I feel like the avatars that we present to the world are more connected
than ever before. But we as like the actual human beings and like our true selves aren't, you know,
we think that because we've got, you know, these followings and these relationships and these people
on an email list that, you know, like, okay, like we're really well connected, but no, it's just the,
it's the image that we present and we continue
to hide behind them. It was interesting that you mentioned that there was a line in your book that
I literally highlighted where you said the opposite of loneliness is being known. I was like, yes,
so powerful. Have you ever stumbled upon Arthur Aaron's work? A lot of people are more familiar
with it as the 36 questions that was sort of like the subject of this modern love column a couple of years back
in the New York Times. But it's fascinating work. He runs a research lab in Stony Brook,
and he's actually the husband of Elaine Aron, who is the woman who's done all the primary research
on highly sensitive people. So they've both together done this incredible research.
But he runs a lab which looks at human intimacy. And he came up with this set of
36 questions, which is what you were describing. It's couplets of nine, like three sets of nine,
or whatever it is. And each one of them is designed to take you from a sort of a superficial thing
to a little bit more vulnerable, revealing a little bit more. And it's what you were describing
is this process of progressive revelation and vulnerability, and it's mutual. And if we don't ever get there, if we just stay at that level
one or two question, then we have all these conversations, but we never actually feel known.
It's amazing. Yeah. You know what's interesting? This is not sponsored or anything, but Drew and
I have been doing this app together. So my husband and I got this app and it's called Paired, P-A-I-R-E-D.
And basically what it is, is that every single day there's a question for you as a couple
and you cannot see your spouse's response until you yourself respond. So in order to unlock their
response and it covers everything from intimacy to relationships, to financials, to responsibilities, to family
relationships. And it's been so cool because I think too, it's really easy to go through life
with a partner, but kind of wake up one day and be like, I'm not the person I was 10 years ago,
and neither are you. And who are we? And it's like when you go through these massive life
shifts or identity shifts, like we just became parents again to a second daughter. Like when you become an empty nester,
it's so easy to kind of look at your partner and be like, okay, I love you, but like, who are you
now? Or who are you becoming? And it's been really fun because just like those questions, I'm sure
that a lot of the questions we answer daily are based off of some of those science behind intimacy.
But I love it because it's easy to just get stuck even with the people you love the most
at the how are you stage and to not really dive into that really and to not recognize
that we are growing and evolving and changing and we only know what we know right now.
And that's the beauty of life.
And I mean, I'm sure you've seen it in your life, but there are so many people that I've watched where it's like they're growing into themselves, but they grow apart from their loved ones. And I think it really people to truly honor their own individual growth,
especially if they come together pretty early in life and they have a lot of evolution and growth
and like maturing and seasoning to do. I think there are times where even if you do the work,
even if you're really intentional about it, for each of you to independently step into who you
need to become, you may reach a point where you're not, you don't have the same
synchronicity. You don't still mesh in the way that be. And I think sometimes that can be
incredibly painful, but also important to sort of like own that this relationship may have run
its course. Interestingly, I've also heard some pretty legendary relationship researchers share
this particular marriage has ended, But that doesn't mean that
you too, your relationship has ended. It means like the next type of marriage actually kicks
in now if you're both invested in building that. So it's this really interesting evolutionary
process. I love that. And I think it's fascinating too, because Drew and I, we met when we were 18. We were 23 when we got married. And it's like,
oh my goodness, he was selling cell phones. I was working a corporate job. It's like our life
has taken so many twists and turns. And it is fascinating because it's like we are vastly
different people today than we were. And I think there's a part of my book where I talk about like,
when you used to sign yearbooks, it would be like, please never change. And there's always
this fear of like, if they change, will they still like me? If they change, will we still
relate? If they change, will we still have things in common? And it's like, if I could go back to
my 18-year-old self and sign those yearbooks again, instead of saying, please don't change,
I would say like, I can't wait to see who you become.
And there's so much science behind
like the resistance of change and how afraid people are.
But I also believe that we have
this really beautiful opportunity right now
after what we've all collectively faced
over the previous few years,
that we can face uncertainty
and we can be resilient and adaptable
and we will be stretched and we can be resilient and adaptable and we will be stretched
and we will grow and we will change, but that we shouldn't necessarily fear that.
We should kind of lean into that and lean into that inner calling that accompanies the uncertainty.
Because a lot of times it's like we're looking for the roadmap,
but we haven't really checked if the destination is the one that we really want to go to.
Yeah, so true.
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It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming or sleeping.
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Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.
The pilot's a hitman.
I knew you were gonna be fun.
January 24th.
Tell me how to fly this thing.
Mark Wahlberg.
You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.
Don't shoot him. We need him.
Y'all need a pilot.
Flight risk.
Change is one thing that you actually weave a lot through. I mean, it's not just in your book.
This has been a part of your conversation in a very public way in so many different ways,
career, relationships, life,
like even the way that you and Drew
both felt about parenting in the early days.
It's like, oh, that's never gonna happen.
It's not for us.
And then five years in,
oh, maybe actually that's gonna be different,
which is a huge change.
I'm so curious because you're somebody
who seems to have found a way to hold yourself
open to not just changing your mind, but changing literally everything that most people hold on to
as bedrocks of security. Like I want to feel grounded in life. So I'm going to say yes to
a career and stay with it until I get my gold pen and I move on to the next phase. Yeah. Do you have a sense for what you feel has allowed you to let go of past constraints,
past models of yourself, of your identity, of the world, of how things should be
in a way that has let you sort of continue to say, well, maybe the future needs to be different.
I love that. Yes. So there's this idea of identity foreclosure. I had a guest on my podcast,
Dr. Maya Shanker come on, and she talked about this notion that a lot of times we hold onto
these identities for too long because we're just so worried about like what the shift will do or what people will perceive
or what they'll think of us.
And she gave the example
and it just made me laugh,
but it's like exactly why we hold on
to like genes that no longer fit
or like stay in degrees
when we know we actually don't even want to work
in that occupation
because we would have wasted two years.
So why not waste the other two,
you know, to finish the degree?
And it's interesting to me
because I just feel like I've
always followed the path of alignment for me in terms of what feels aligned. And when I am out of
alignment, it's like I'm forcing things and the flow is not there. And that to me is the most
uncomfortable place to be. And a lot of times I think identity comes in the form of cultural constructs of like,
this is your title. This is your leading role. This is what you do in your work. This is who
you are at your home. And I've recognized that every day I clothe myself in a different identity.
Every day I am becoming. And for me, I think becoming a mom after saying like, I'm never,
I don't ever want to. And now all of a sudden I do, and now I can't, and now I will.
And all of these things, it was honestly just this like revelation of like, I am this
multi-passionate person who has the ability to change her mind, but also who has the ability
to just do the things that she wants to do. And when I left corporate America as a Midwesterner and walking away from a salary
and a 401k and all of that, that is terrifying. My parents were like, what are you doing? I was
23 years old. I picked up a camera. I decided I was going to become a wedding photographer.
I'd never taken an art class. And they were rightfully so afraid of what I was about to do. But I recognize that in sitting in a meeting with my boss and they're
giving me this five-year plan and they didn't even ask me what I envisioned for my life in five years,
that gold pen or that watch or the nameplate life was not one for me because I can buy those
things myself and in my own terms. I don't need to wait
or waste 10 years to get those. When I look at identity and shifting, it's up to us to define
our identity. And I think for so long and for so many reasons, we cling to what others tell us our
identity is instead of really coming home to this idea of like, I am an ever evolving, always learning
student in life school. And my identity is what I clothe myself in, not what society tells me it
should be. But it's one thing to say that, and you've stepped into that. You've demonstrated,
you've sort of like lived your life and sometimes very publicly made these really big shifts.
And you've also sometimes very publicly
taken a lot of heat for that. Yeah. So I wonder whether one of the things that really stops people
from, even though they feel like, okay, I'm done with this chapter and I kind of, and maybe I don't
see exactly what the next chapter is, but I have enough of a hint that I could take the first step
or two into it. I often wonder that the most powerful things that stops people from doing that
is fear of being socially outcast,
you know, fear of violating the norms of a group or a community to which they belong.
And they want to continue to belong. And they're afraid that if they like take this step to the
left or right, that's going to get them cast out. And that is absolutely terrifying for us.
Don't you think, Jonathan, that like when I think about stepping into a new identity or trying
something new, I am more fearful of the judgment of the people that know me than I am of the
strangers on the internet. When I talk to people who are like, I want to start the business or I
want to pursue this hobby, but what will my college roommate think of me? Or what will my neighbor
think when they see that? Or what will my neighbor think when they
see that? Or what will my mom say or my sister say or whatever that is? And it's fascinating to me
because we worry about people that are in our lives that are supposed to love and support and
encourage our growth. But those are usually the people's judgments that hold us back more than
strangers on the internet. Is that true for you? Because it's true for me.
I don't have a lot of throughput from people who are not in my immediate circle. Years ago,
when I sat down with Brene Brown, and she said this many times over in many different ways,
she's like, I have no input for anyone who's not also in the arena. Getting banged up and
bloodied along the way. She's like, if you're not in there along with me, I could care less what you say. Yes. I love that. And her Netflix,
when you watch her deliver that, it is so powerful. And I think a lot of times we often give
the people with opinions, they're in the cheap seats watching and commenting and we're the ones
out for the battle. And I think that's such a powerful reminder.
And one of the most interesting things that I've found over time, I was even just doing a training
with a few hundred women last night. And I asked them, I said, how many of you are afraid of
failure? And of course, a lot of hands go up. And I said, well, how many of you are afraid of success?
And just about the same amount of hands went up. And I think what's
fascinating is that we're not necessarily afraid of failure. We're afraid of failing publicly.
But when it comes to success, I think sometimes that can be even scarier for people because
you're putting yourself in a position to be judged, to be critiqued, to get that feedback.
And I think for a lot of people, that's honestly more terrifying than trying something and failing and giving up. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's also a bit of
the devil you know syndrome. You may not be happy right now. You may not be fulfilled right now.
You may be dealing even with mental illness, but you know that experience. You kind of know you've
lived it enough to feel like you get it. And the thought
of doing something profoundly different, you don't know that. You don't know the success,
but you also, so many people project, well, what other suffering that I don't yet know how to
manage a different experience, even a different level of success. It's so interesting the way
that our minds work. Isn't it? I know. I was just talking to someone and we were talking about, they were asking about how
do you handle criticism or something like that.
And I said, you know, our brains are literally wired to remember the negative things.
Like it was how the caveman survived, like run away from the lion, like that kind of
thing.
But now in this day and age, it's like I could ask anyone that has a public platform, like
tell me word for word
verbatim a mean comment that has stuck with you. And they could. And then I could say,
tell me a great testimonial. And they couldn't. And it's fascinating to me because when we are
wired that way, it takes a lot of work to help make sure that your narrative is strong and that your self-talk can really help
to bridge that gap between any feedback or criticism that you're bringing in so that what
you believe about yourself is more important than what anyone believes or says about you.
You know, it's really wild. As you were just saying that, I had this momentary flashback
and then a flash forward. And literally an hour ago,
someone from my team shared a couple of beautiful responses to an email that I sent out yesterday.
I can't remember the details of those emails, but I can remember in the blink of an eye,
a really harsh comment from when I was a blogger in 2008 in the very early days of being exposed.
Stop.
Our brains are so bizarrely wired towards negativity that, and it's not just that we
feel it, like it gets baked into our memory. So it's like we build up this really hyper-detailed
visual vivid library of everything negative, all the times that we've stepped out, taken a risk,
been vulnerable, and then had negative response to it. And we create this really kind of like vague response
to all the good. And it's so much easier to recall the details of the negative. So that becomes like
the dominant source of our archives. I'm fascinated by the way that our brains sort of like catalog
things that way. I know. I wish we could rewire them though. That would be great.
I know. I think we can. You shared this really interesting line. The way we're living is not
sustainable for a human soul. Yeah. It's really fascinating to me. I feel like we're living in
such a polarizing time. Whatever we're looking at is there's two sides. It feels like when it's
forcing us to feel like we need to choose. And what I mean by this is like right now,
specifically, I think in the entrepreneurial space, it's almost like there are two versions
of people who are in pursuit of bigger dreams. There are the hustlers and then there are the
manifestors. There are the wake up earlyers and there are the like, say it and it'll come into
your life. And I believe that our souls aren't meant to always put themselves in a box, like choose
one or the other.
I think there are a lot of instances in our life where there can be the and or the both.
And one thing that I think is fascinating about where I approach things from is it's
almost like where the woo meets the work, where we have these visualizations, these
dreams, these scenes for
our life, but where our actions and our calendars and the way that we show up really shows that
we're working in the direction of our dreams. And the pace that we have been running at and
this disbelief in our ability to gain momentum, this fear that if we pause, we're going to lose momentum,
is keeping us just going on a hamster wheel. And our souls are not meant to do that.
I feel like our culture is telling us we have to earn our right to rest,
but rest is a birthright. And rest is something that we should be claiming,
and we should be relishing in, and it should be baked into a part of our being.
And yet if you look at the data, it's like very few Americans take all of their vacation days,
like days you are already paid to do, to take and rest. And I think that it's like our souls are calling out for like more peace. And it's up to us to figure out how can we welcome that
into our lives? And more so, how can we train ourselves
to make that something that we crave and something that we prioritize in our own lives?
Yeah, so agree. You share a funny story about like hating Shavasana in yoga class. And it's
funny because in a very past life, I owned a yoga studio and I taught yoga for seven years.
And it was like this really
aggressive, very physical, very intense 90 minute vinyasa class. And at the end of it, you know,
like I'm always, I would think to myself as a teacher in the room, I'm like, I know how hard
I've just asked you to, I've invited you to really explore yourself and push yourself and work
physically and energetically and emotionally. And when we come down into the
shavasana, and for those who haven't ever done a yoga class, it's a final relaxation where you
just kind of lie there and you just settle into your body and your breath and your mind.
And I would always think to myself, I'm like, you have earned this. But it's interesting because A,
no, you earned it by just being born. Like you didn't have to just show up and work for 85 minutes
to earn this five minutes of Shavasana.
So it's like, even I, as like the teacher in the room,
had a bit of an off frame to it.
And then of course, doing this in New York City,
it was, you would see,
if there were 50 people in a class,
we'd go down to Shavasana
and 20 would immediately quietly gather the things
and leave because they could not
imagine just sitting there for five minutes with their eyes closed, feeling their body and their
breath. We are so programmed to not allow space for that into our lives. It's kind of mind-boggling.
It is. And I love that chapter because I was the same way. And it was so funny because I approached yoga
from this place of performance. A lot of times, I was a former gymnast. I'd be like,
let me get my leg up a little higher. Let me catch that bind. I want to do all of these things.
And I remember the first time that someone said to me, Jenna, you're not supposed to achieve yoga.
You're supposed to practice it. And I think that is such a powerful change of reference because you're not supposed to
arrive.
You're not supposed to complete.
You're supposed to practice.
And we have lost the art of practice in our lives because we are so keen on showing the
before and the after, like the starting line and the finish line.
And we forget to show that middle,
that practice, whatever that is, whether it's a relationship or a project or a career.
And I feel like there's so much beauty in understanding the practice. And for me with
yoga, it was just that. I felt like laying there for five minutes. One, I just couldn't be quiet with myself.
But two, I could not come to terms
that I was supposed to relish in what I had just done.
It was like onto the next thing.
And the beautiful thing is,
is if you really think about it,
like Shavasana in yoga,
and if we'd apply it to life,
that is what you are working so hard for.
And there's a story in the book,
and I love it.
It's about a monk and he
visits New York City and the tour guide is like, hey, we can save ourselves 10 minutes if we take
the subway. So they go into the depths of the bowels of the city and they go on the subway and
they come up and the monk goes and sits on a park bench and the guy goes, what are you doing? And he
goes, I'm enjoying the 10 minutes we just saved. And it really makes me think about how we are so
obsessed with productivity and efficiency and doing more and being more. And it really makes me think about how we are so obsessed with productivity and
efficiency and doing more and being more. And we're doing more so that we can do more.
But it's usually we're working harder so we can work harder instead of relishing in the time that
we're saving or the way that efficiency is giving us back our lives. We're just spending our lives
on creating more efficiency.
It's really wild. Yeah. I mean, we are so outcome focused. And again, I think that's a cultural
thing because there are Eastern cultures, in my experience, tend to be less so. They tend to be
more process and practice, or if not focused, at least present in the value of the along the way,
in the way that I feel like a lot of Western culture
isn't. We are so driven by, like you said, productivity. And then what is the productivity
leading to? Like, how do I check the box of the outcome? Because that is how I define my value,
my worth in society, my worth in relationships, my worth to myself as a human being is how many
boxes I've checked, you know, by the end of the day. I mean, if you look at life broadly as a human being is how many boxes I've checked by the end of the day. I mean, if you look at life
broadly as a practice with the goal simply to show up and do it, imagine how that would just change
the way that you experience each day. I think you'd probably accomplish similar things at the
end of the day. The way you'd feel along the way would be so profoundly different.
I think it's interesting. And one thing you've referenced that I've pivoted and changed
identities a lot. And I think part of that is the idea that I look at everything as an experiment
instead of a success or a failure. Because even that reframe, an experiment simply yields a
result. The result guides your path forward. And we are so quick to label things,
successes and failures, that we almost get afraid to even try because we're like,
it could be a failure, but it could be a smashing success. And I love just looking at ideas and
creative endeavors or curiosities and being like, huh, this could be a cool experiment.
And all it's going to do is just
give me a result. And I can do whatever I want with that result at the end of the day. And that
can be a guiding light that allows you to play a little bit more and get creative. But here's the
thing. I don't even think we give ourselves time for creativity anymore. If we can't lay down for
five minutes after a great yoga session, we sure as heck aren't spending 10 minutes a day asking ourselves, what do I want to do creatively today?
And I think that's part of the human experience that I want to bring back.
Yeah, I love that. The notion of what can I do creatively today also, it's a hard thing for a
lot of people to ask that because I wonder if so many of us have become disconnected with whatever
signals our body, our intuition, our emotion, our circumstance would give us that would even allow
us to begin to answer that question. Like we don't want to ask the question because we're concerned
that we won't even be capable of knowing where to start to answer it. And that I feel like that
like it creates
this preemptive shame that we don't want to feel so we don't even ask a question.
Have you experienced that? Oh, yeah. One, this is a perfect example.
Drew and I were in the car one day, we're talking about a mutual friend. And we're just getting to
know this person. And we were like, I wonder if she has any hobbies, you know, beyond work and
motherhood. And then I turned to Drew and
I go, and what are our hobbies? And it was kind of this like wake up call of like, you know,
when we were in the thick of COVID, it's not like you were having conversations with people about
like, what do you like to do outside of work? And it's so easy specifically to, you know,
if you're a parent and you're working and you're managing relationships and like, I mean, everyone, we're all so busy. And we were laughing at each other
because I was like, so what are our hobbies? And it was a really big challenge for us to really
think about like, how can we play more? And for us having young children, it has been the best
reminder to get on the floor, take out the Play-Doh, create something that you're
going to just shove back in the canister at the end of it. And so it's not about the output.
It's about the art of playing. And watching a young child and how creative they can be and
how their mind works, it really inspires me as an adult to be like,
when did I lose that? When did I lose that ability to sing and dance like I'm on stage
while I'm really just at the dining room table? When did I lose that joy of having an imaginary
friend or pretending that this animal could talk? When did I lose that desire to put paint on an
easel? And a lot of times it's like when productivity comes into our lives or when
efficiency becomes a focus, play feels counterintuitive to the nature of how we are
measuring our success of each day. It's funny because it's like you could tell people all day,
like, go out and play more.
But it's like, and where am I going to fit that in?
And what is that going to do?
But really, when I look at all of the different ways
I've shifted or pivoted or had new ideas
or felt creative again,
it's all happened in the space
where I've claimed back time as my currency
and really welcomed in white space and margin.
And I think that's what's really lacking these days.
So it's interesting that you bring up
playing the role of a parent
as sort of like this inciting incident
for you to look back at how can I bring playing to my day
because you have this,
now two living, breathing examples
of just like that mindset,
that hyper presence that let me play
all day, every day. You know, the truth is, I think a lot of people would literally point to
that same experience as being the thing that actually becomes so overwhelming, so consuming,
adds so much complexity to their lives that that is the moment when a lot of the notion of freedom
and play leaves their life. And in fact, if you look at
the data, you're not supposed to own this as a parent, but the data actually shows broadly
that the first 17, 18 years of being a parent is on the whole across large numbers of people,
a less happy window than the period before and the period after. And a lot of it is the frame
in that I've given up a lot of my freedom, my play,
all of this in the name of, it's just things are a lot more complicated. My energy, my time,
everything is being demanded in a way where I feel like I don't have any time to breathe.
That part of myself that would love to relish and savor and play, I can't figure out how and
when to access it, even if I truly treasure it
and want to do it. So it's an interesting frame that you're bringing to say, well,
what if you actually flip that script? What if it's less about circumstance and more about story?
Yes. Well, and it's interesting, Jonathan, that's so fascinating to me because for me,
it's been the opposite because my dream and my deepest goal is to raise up the next
generation to just be incredible humans, to live better lives. And to me, it's like the things I
want for my daughter, no screens and more creativity and more paintbrushes to the paper
and chalk on the sidewalk. I have to be the person mirroring that
for her. And that challenges me greatly because Drew and I have this joke where it's like as
adults these days, it's like we wake up and look at a tiny screen so that we can work on a bigger
screen so that we can finish the night watching the big screen. And here we are as parents being
like, no, no, no, no screens for kids. And it's like, look at what they're watching us do. And so for me, it's been like this deep challenge where it's like,
from anything about like body image with children to confidence with children to play with children,
all of these things, I'm like, I must be the mirror because our children mimic what they see,
not what we tell them. Even when my daughter came along and she was this toddler and we were living up in the
woods in Minnesota and we were in the pandemic, it was just the three of us.
It was like, all right, we haven't ridden a pedal bike in 12 years, but here we go.
And I'm going to go buy a pair of hiking boots and suddenly I'm going to enjoy the art of
climbing up a mountain and climbing back down again.
But it was fascinating because it was almost like I unlocked these pieces of me that
maybe I had once as a child who would go in the woods and build a dam with her brother or make
the tree fort or things like that. And so it's kind of this mix of like, how do we become mirrors
of what we hope for that next generation, regardless of if we're parents or not?
I feel like we are all a role guiding the next generation forward.
But also, how do we create this blend where it becomes this experience that is shared
with other people?
Because have you ever been on a trip or something and you're by yourself and you're in this
magnificent place, but it just doesn't hit the same as it does if you're sharing it with someone else? Yeah, of course. Of course. It's
sort of like you're turning to like, who can I tell? Yeah. Like who's going to understand the
depth of this? No, I totally get that. As you're describing that, it's bringing me to... So I
snowboard and my daughter snowboards. And a couple of years back, we hit a point where we've been
snowboarding together for, I don't know, a dozen years, 15 years at this point. And we're each other's,
you know, like we're our ride or dies. We're on the mountain together, like from the morning
into the last lift together. And there have been these moments where we catch the last lift up,
we're at the top of the mountain. A lot of people have gone down already. It's white peaks all around it,
like 14,000, 13,000 feet. The sun is casting sideways across the slopes. And it's just like
me and her, side by side, carving these almost simultaneous arcs in the snow on snowboards.
It is the most magical thing to be able to do that with my child.
But also, it's something that I love.
And the truth is, but for the fact that we've been doing it together for so many years,
I probably wouldn't do it.
Or I would do it far less often, this thing that I love that fills me.
And it's the fact that I can do it with her and we can share it together.
And also, the fact that she has developed such a love of it, that is a reminder to me of this thing that I can do where I get to play and be free as well. It's a real blessing to be able
to find that. If you're not a parent, there are other ways to access this through the vehicle of
others that you love and sharing in the experience of accessing a flow state, a play state.
I love that. I think that's so powerful. And I think life is meant to be enjoyed with people.
And I don't know about you, but we're both introverted. And it's like our ability to
people has significantly decreased because of circumstances that we've all walked through
collectively. And so I have had to challenge myself to really step back
into this mentality of like, it takes a village to bring people in around my children, to bring
people in around my business, to bring people in around my book and my dreams and all of these
things. And it's really easy for us to get back into those places of white knuckling and not
asking for help or not inviting people into our lives. And my challenge would be to really step outside and ask someone,
how are you really? But also to be able to say three important words at times in your life,
which is, I need help. Whether it's, I need help learning how to play again,
or I need help exploring this new idea, or I simply just, I need help. That's a three-word
complete sentence that I want for everyone to be able to drop in. And I think we're granted I need help exploring this new idea, or I simply just, I need help. That's a three-word complete
sentence that I want for everyone to be able to drop in. And I think we're granted this invitation
of like, how are we going to move forward? But for a lot of us, it's a challenge to invite people
into our lives, into these spaces so that we can have memories that are so powerful,
the kind that you want to remember 20, know, 20, 30, 50 years from now.
Yeah. your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just
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results will vary.
Mayday, mayday.
We've been compromised.
The pilot's a hitman.
I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. Do you have any sense that over the last two years, really,
that the level of suffering, the level of struggle,
the level of pain has become so pervasive and so normalized that people are maybe finding it
easier to step up and say, I need help because it's been so normalized just sort of like society
wide? Or is that just sort of like a hope that I have. I think that it is getting easier for people to admit
when they're seeking help, but I don't know if it's as easy to still do that initial, I need help.
I don't know. But one thing that I think is really interesting that I think is beautiful
that came out of the pandemic is, I would catch myself on Zoom calls with friends who I hadn't seen in years, but it was like,
oh yeah, we can still connect. I started a book club with a family that I grew up with. And so
it's like all of us girls that join once a month and we've kept it going. And we've been challenged
in different ways to create those connections, whether in real life or whether digitally.
But when it comes to help, sometimes for me, I often think of my own
story of trying to do all the things and it really was just me white knuckling everything.
And the moment that I whispered the first, I need help, was the moment that my eyes were
open to what help can bring and how help can change my life. And asking for help is really, I think, like working out.
It's like the more you do it, the easier it gets. But I think for a lot of people, that initial,
it's like pride's utter chokehold of like, I've got this, I've got this, I've got this until I
really don't is scary. But I do hope that in all the conversations and in public people sharing
about their own journeys and in people
normalizing things like therapy and stuff, it's making people feel like it is more safe to talk
about those things and to invite them into their lives. That is a beautiful hope and it's a hope
that I hope is true, but it is. It's fascinating. And one thing that I think is interesting on the
flip side of this, and I'm curious what you think, Jonathan, is one thing that I think is hard is that with
all this awareness that we all carry, because I think we are a very aware culture that others
have it worse than we do. A lot of times that can lead us to letting what's not good be fine
in our lives because we become apologetic that our heart is different
than someone else's heart is different than someone else's. And I catch myself even with
some of my closest friends where, you know, if I'm going through a challenging week parenting,
there's 18 caveats of, but I have healthy children and I'm so grateful to have support
and I have all these, you know, privileges and all these things. And yes, we know that and
we're so aware of that, but it's okay for hard to just be hard too. And so it's like gratitude can
move us forward, but gratitude can also keep us stuck sometimes because it keeps things that are
fine in a place of being stuck when they could really be better. Do you agree?
I think I do. The notion of trying to compare our
suffering with everyone else's. And if you come from a place of privilege, whether by birth,
by circumstance, by work, whatever it may be, or some blend of all of those.
And there are people in the world who clearly you can look at and say, it seems objectively that
their pain is so much, their grief is so much, their loss there is so much
greater than I. I should just be grateful for what I have. And in fact, I think the notion is saying,
you know, like you can simultaneously be grateful and yearn for something different or more or
evolved. And at the same time, acknowledge the fact that, you know, like there's a lot that's
still good for you, but you're still suffering, you still have this pain, which brings up actually something that you wrote. Your pain can expand
your deep well of empathy. Your fear can heighten your desire for change. Your grief may prove to be
a strength to open up the experiences that await you, making them richer. Pain, fear, and grief
are not weaknesses. They're your companions for your transformation.
We're only in danger of losing time when we simply wait for them to go away. And it kind of ties into
what we're talking about, right? Because it's, yes, we move beyond the notion of comparative
suffering, but also you're planting the seeds here of, is there value? Like we are all going
to suffer in our lives. We're all
going to experience pain. We're all going to experience loss. And it doesn't diminish the
fact that it's going to hurt. And is there not an alternative, but a yes and a complimentary
story that we can tell about those seasons of our lives? There's a part that I love that's
following that, what you just read. And it's talking about how we're not meant to move on
from our grief or our pain. We're meant to learn how to move with it. And what I love about that
is if you have ever experienced a trauma or a loss or something really hard, there's this piece of
you that's like, I just want to go back to before. It's like there are so many chasms in our life
where there's a very clear before and after.
And when you have experienced something really hard in your life, whatever that hard thing was, there's this deep desire of like waiting for life to go back to the before.
And it's this notion of like, we're supposed to move on.
But I don't believe that's true.
I think we're supposed to learn how to move with because loss and trauma change you.
And you should come out changed.
And what's fascinating to me is if we think about instead of moving on, moving with,
I imagine, like I literally think of like a turtle picking up a shell and starting to just
slowly start to move forward. And that shell is growing their strength and it's changing their
home. And it's like sheltering them from knowing that they can get through
these really hard things and they're going to come out looking different and being different
and feeling different. But sometimes that's the beauty of it. And for us, when we were trying to
grow our family, after saying for years, we were never going to, we experienced two losses over
two years. And I had to cling to this idea that the season of waiting was just as important
as what it is that we were waiting for. And a lot of times when we are in these almost,
or we're having these big breaks, or we're experiencing these deep losses,
we spend those seasons of grief feeling like they're wasted. But really, those seasons of grief feeling like they're wasted, but really those seasons of waitings can
be really powerful in how we are preparing to continue moving forward, how we are preparing
to move on. And I love that because I want to move with life's experiences. I want them to
mold me and shape me. I don't want to just pass through them and go back to who I was. I want to keep becoming. And so I think that grief and loss has been in
my life, one of my greatest teachers, but it only teaches you if you allow yourself to be taught.
And changed, right? Yes.
Which means you're not just grieving the loss of whatever the circumstances that brought this
feeling of grief to you, but we have to open ourselves to grieve the loss of who we were
before this happened to us. So it's almost like you're grieving. You have to allow yourself
to lose again the person that you were and then grieve that loss as well as whatever the thing
that caused the initial pain was. Yeah.
So you can understand why
that would be a really hard thing for people to say yes to. Again, it's that identity shift that
I think is scary, right? Who will I be on the other side of this? And who am I becoming through
this? When I think about our culture, and if we even circle back to our souls were not built for
the way that the world is, part of that is that I think we are so afraid to be quiet with ourselves because we'll have to
face ourselves. And we're constantly distracted. We're constantly being pulled in a million
directions. The pings and the dings and the notifications are just keeping our minds going. And so much of what we're talking about isn't
solved, but it can be managed when we get quiet with ourselves and do these check-ins.
It's kind of like when you're in a car and it's like the check engine light keeps turning on and
you just keep ignoring it and keep driving and hoping the car is going to keep going.
But if you avoid it long enough, the car will break down and it will be expensive and it will
take time and it will be costly in more ways. And it's like, we have just tuned out the check engine lights in
our own lives. It's like when you talk to someone and they have a bad breakup or they made a bad
business decision or something was a struggle and you're like, were there any red lights?
And they're like, oh yeah, but I did it anyways. It's like we've forgotten how to trust our own
check engine lights. And
we've also forgot how to check in with ourselves to even see if they're illuminating.
Yeah. And I wonder if so much of that is again, because we're looking to the way that others tell
us that we should feel and be. And rather than like our own internal, you talk about intuition
and emotion as being these signals for us. And we're constantly sort of like trying to appease the world around us and the expectations of how we show up. I mean,
you've written about this over a period of years now and not just written, but like you visually
expressed how this shows up in you, the way that you feel and see your physical body and the way
that it shows up in the world and your relation to that over time. You wrote this line that really
stayed with me, which was, we live in a world that eats with its eyes first,
that profits off reminding us our bodies don't measure up. And we march right up to the line
on a battlefield of cuts. So I share this story and I talk about how it was the first time I ever
became aware of my body beyond just it being and helping me move through life. And it
was when a boy pointed out my leg hair. And I remember I was eight years old and I went home
to my parents and I was like, please let me shave my legs. Please, please, please, please, please.
And they were like, you are way too young. They knew that if I did it, I would pass that point
of no return and no going back. And I didn't listen to
their wishes because I was so embarrassed. And I was like, I will wear pants for the rest of the
school years so that I don't get teased. And it's fascinating because I've pulled my audience
multiple times on like, what age were you when you first became aware of your body beyond just
being? And for so many people, it's like those young,
young ages, six, seven, eight, nine. And it's like, oh my goodness. And that story,
The Battlefield of Cuts is talking about how I shaved my legs anyways. I had no idea what I was
doing, but all I knew was that I just didn't want that pain of being different or labeled.
And the funny thing, Jonathan, is when I initially wrote a book
manuscript, I did it without an agent and a deal and all these things. And I initially wrote a
business book. And it was, again, kind of that identity piece of like, well, here's what I'm
known for. So here's what people expect from me, but here's what I really want to write about.
And even when I was writing a business book, I wrote about body image in it because I don't think we talk enough about how what we believe about ourselves and how we feel
in our bodies impacts how we show up in every single area of our lives, not just career,
but relationally and communicating and how we show up with confidence or lack of.
And for me, it has been this really intimate journey with
myself and coming home to my body and seeing my body as not this separate thing from my heart and
soul, but I am a whole human with a body and a beating heart. And so this whole notion of a
battlefield of cuts is like, we are all walking around with this belief about ourselves with
these deep insecurities that we do
our best to hide. And it's holding us back from actually doing impactful work, but it's also just
holding us back from showing up at all for our own lives. I'm sure that lands with me. It lands
with... It's funny because I think a lot of people would think, well, there's a certain type of
people that this would really affect. There's a certain gender, people would think, well, there's a certain type of people that this would really affect.
There's a certain gender.
There's a certain age.
There's a certain sexuality.
And it's like, the truth is, it's just that nobody's really talking about it because there's so much shame wrapped around it. And yet, if you could actually step into some sort of experience of just not even acceptance, maybe acceptance is the first part, but actually like reveling in all of the different ways that you exist in your body. How much bandwidth,
how much creative bandwidth, how much cognitive bandwidth, how much emotional bandwidth would that
free up for you to just enjoy yourself, your life, like everything so much more?
It's complicated though, but I think of the possibility on the other side
of owning that, okay, so this is something I want to actually really, really explore and see if I
can move through. What would that free up on the other side of it? You know what's wild is how many
thoughts per day we give to ourselves and what's wrong with our bodies. And we often treat our bodies like the enemy
when really it is the greatest teammate we have ever had in this thing called life.
And it's like this shift of really seeing our bodies as like these things that allow us to
move through our lives and do what we do. And for me, it's so interesting because the self-love
movement exists and it's beautiful, but there are also a lot of complexities that I don't think are covered in it. And sometimes people point it out as this point of arrival, like, oh, I've arrived and I love myself and all is hourly choice. It's every time you catch that reflection in the mirror. It's
every time that you notice something about your body or the way it looks or the way it moves.
And it's this reframing. And if we think back to how we were talking about people's criticisms,
and we remember those comments, it takes a lot of rewiring and intentional
narration of ourselves to really help ourselves look at things differently.
Have you ever looked at a photo, Jonathan? I'm curious if men do this because I know as women,
we do this, but have you ever looked at a photo of yourself from years ago and you can remember
something you were insecure about when that photo was taken? Oh, sure. Yeah. And then do you look
at that photo now with the perspective that life has
given you and think if only he knew how great he looked or how strong he was or how vibrant he was,
how would he have showed up different in that moment? Yeah. I don't know if I think the first
part of that, but I look at it with a lot more forgiveness. Like that was just really silly to
feel that way or think that way. And it's like, it's funny because I think it
brings up the phrase, you know, like a lot of people are like, oh, if I could just be in my
20s again. And I'm like, you know, I'm in my 50s and I'm actually, there are a lot of things I'm
really happy about not having to grapple with that I've just made peace with at this point in my life
and nothing's perfect. And there are new things that I struggle with or I suffer with, but the perspective of, you know,
like 30-ish years. And it circles back to what we were talking about earlier also, which is this
notion of self-acceptance is not just a choice, it's a practice because you're going to continue
to change and your circumstance will continue to change and the people around you and your inputs
are going to continue to change. You know. So we have to say yes to developing a
practice of self-awareness, of self-honesty, of savoring and knowing that we can again savor and
still yearn. It's a thing that we build that muscle. And just like if you stop working out,
your physical body atrophies, I think the psychological and emotional has the same
effect. So the practice is with us for life. We can't make those choices unless there's something driving them.
It's fascinating to me too, when it comes to bodies and health and all of that,
our culture is so obsessed with the what and the how, and we never really get deep on the why.
And right now in my life, I am running on the least amount of sleep
thanks to two young children. However, I've never been more energized and more adamant about my
health. And the reason why is I went into this year being like, I want to be vibrant. I don't
want to just feel vibrant. I want to illuminate vibrance in the way that I show up in the world.
And if I want to do that, I have to shift the way that I look at food as fuel and not punishment or rewards.
And I need to shift the way that I look at moving my body. And it's fascinating to me because it's
like we are so obsessed with like, oh, what are you doing to lose weight? Or how are you so strong?
But we never really ask people their why. And I feel like until your why is strong
enough, you won't follow through. You won't be able to really embody this idea of vibrance or
this idea of energy. And again, it's like with a culture that eats with its eyes, we are so quick
to judge health based off of what someone looks like, but health is so much more
than that. And it's this journey again, that it's like this recommitting over and over and over
again until it just becomes a part of who you are. And I feel like I'm constantly on that journey.
But it's something that lately, when I see people in pursuit of their health, the first thing I ask them is, what is your why, so you're known for a bunch of different things, like publicly known,
but probably more than anything else,
it's sort of like this really intentional shift
in work, in career, in sort of like moving through
from the corporate world, then into photography,
then art, and then in being an educator
and being like by almost any definition successful
at this along the way. And a lot of what you talk
about, a lot of what you teach is built around that. So like you said, when it comes time for
you to write the book, it would have been an obvious choice to write something about like
the business journey or like, here are my 10 steps to building this kind of business.
And you've got the social proof and you've got like, you made a really interesting choice not to do that. And you wrote a book that's largely about life, about philosophy,
about the bigger things, about hard moments, about standing more fully in the essence of who you are.
And I'm curious about that choice. Well, it's funny because I am an artist. In all the things I do, my best work
comes when I allow myself to be creative. And so when I finally decided to write a book,
I had the self-awareness to know I have to do this in a way that's non-traditional because I
have to honor my creativity. So I wrote the book in silence without any of the traditional things because
the moment a deadline or money gets attached to something, my creativity just dissipates.
It's gone. And what was so interesting to me was at first I started writing a business book.
There was things about branding and all of these facets of things that I love,
but aren't like my soul. And what's fascinating on the journey of
writing the book, because it's been over the last two years, is I've realized that while I love
strategy and I love marketing and I love business, my business has just been the vehicle that has
allowed me to live a good life. There are different ways to live a wonderful life that
don't include entrepreneurship. For me, that was just a vehicle
that got me to this place of really being at peace in my life and really reveling that being content
does not mean you're complacent. That being content is the best gift you can give yourself
to really be in each day of your life. And so it was interesting because by the time I turned in my first manuscript and got
myself an agent, when the agent pulled together the proposal, she removed all of the business
stuff and said, you know what, Jenna, I'm not an entrepreneur, but this is what I really needed.
And it was just this beautiful evolution of like expansion. For me, I literally had to visualize
as a photographer, widening the lens of what I
had written to reach more people because I was reaching all these people that were in traditional
nine to five jobs. And they were saying, this has nothing to do with entrepreneurship. This is
everything to do with life. And I deeply enjoyed the process of expansion for all of the people
that I know that have written books. They were like, oh, I hated the editing or I hated this process. I loved every single step of it because it just
felt more me every single time we took another pass at it. And so it was a really good reminder
for me of like, you can expand and you can reach out and do something different and you don't have
to lean on what has worked in the past. You can move towards what you are being called to. But yeah, it was quite the process and it was quite an
intentional decision once I really invested in that idea and believed that that was where this
was supposed to go. And going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation where you
were talking about sort of like modeling behavior for your kids to do something that becomes, quote,
more me every time I take another pass at it.
Isn't that the aspiration?
If we could live into that ourselves
and then model that for those
who might be watching our behavior
to understand how they might step into their lives,
you know, isn't that really what it's all about?
Yeah, and you know what's so funny too, Jonathan,
is that I have enjoyed every part of this book
process. And I think a lot of times people say it's so painful. And for a lot of people it is,
and they're just waiting to get to the end result. And like the way that I want to move through life
is to enjoy the journey of it. And it's wild because like, I loved it. Like I've loved every
bit of it. And I think that that's part
of the messaging is it's like a lot of times we've arrived at these destinations and they don't feel
like we expected them to feel. Or we cross off these things that we thought would feel like
success, but instead we're miserable or we're burnt out. And so for me, it was so important
to enjoy the process and move through it. And I think that it's a reminder for people too, as you look down at like, what are you working towards? Like, is the path and the pursuit of it joyful? And how, if it's not, how can you lean into the things that add joy to the journey because we all know that the journey is 98% of what we're doing. And the
destination is that 2% that sometimes isn't quite where we wanted to arrive in the first place.
And so, yeah, it's been amazing. And I've genuinely loved every bit of it. I'm just
so excited for it to be out into the world. I love that. And I can see your face, our listeners
can't, but you're smiling from ear to ear ear like you're describing the process. So your body is definitely backing up the words. And it feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Peace in your everyday, peace when you look at your calendar and see what you're
about to do, peace in your relationships, peace in your life, and protecting that at all costs.
And I think that in order to protect our peace, we have to understand what success is for us
and define that definition of success not off of what it looks like to others, but what it feels
like in our own lives. Because we're missing life. We're not awake to the life that we're living. We're not awake to
the beauty of our day to day because we're not orchestrating it in a way that really speaks to
what it is that we want out of it. So I will protect my peace at all costs. I will do things
in a peaceful pursuit. And I will look at my life as this measure of
this beautiful place of being content and peaceful in the day to day. Thank you.
Thank you. This is such a joy because I have been a listener for a very long time.
Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation
we had with Amanda Palmer about being open, vulnerable, and real and learning to ask for help.
You'll find a link to Amanda's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already
done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate
the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one
of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent
work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can
also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.
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The pilot's a hitman.
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On January 24th.
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You know what the difference between me and you is?
You're going to die.
Don't shoot him, we need him!
Y'all need a pilot?
Flight Risk.