Good Life Project - Jennifer Marshall: Mental Illness and the Power of Story.

Episode Date: November 20, 2018

Jennifer Marshall's (https://www.jennifermarshall.me/) life was going exactly as planned. Then, she turned 26 and everything changed.Marshall found herself unable to control her thoughts, spinning and... struggling with reality. She was hospitalized and sent home to take some time and get some sleep. But, it would take yet a second hospitalization shortly after to reveal the fact that this was not about being overtired. It was about mental illness and how it would redefine Marshall's world in a profound way, from that moment forward.She was soon after diagnosed with bipolar. It was a lot for her and her family to take in, but instead of burying the conversation, she embraced it and even began to share her experiences publicly, first anonymously, then under her own name at Jennifermarshall.me (http://jennifermarshall.me/), and then widely on the front page of The Washington Post, Oprah Magazine, national TV and from the TEDx stage.Realizing the power of sharing her story, she co-founded and is now Executive Director of This Is My Brave, Inc., (http://thisismybrave.org/) a global storytelling initiative for people to share their stories of overcoming mental illness through creative expression at live events around the world, and online.We explore this powerful journey, along with how she and her husband explored the decision to become parents, build a family and work to remove the stigma from mental illness in this week's episode.--------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessmentâ„¢ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 My guest today, Jennifer Marshall, is kind of going about her life incredibly accomplished, fiercely motivated, the type of person who would show up and immediately become super important in any organization, project, endeavor that she decided to commit herself to, rose up the ranks in business until one day in her late 20s, something changed in a very quick and profound way. And she started to realize she was struggling to connect with reality. She found herself soon after hospitalized and pretty much sent home saying, you need to catch up on your sleep.
Starting point is 00:00:38 But a couple of weeks later, she was back in the hospital. That set in motion a diagnosis that led her into a world of understanding that from that moment forward, her mental health, her life, her relationships, her work, her identity as a human being of value who could contribute as a wife, as a mom would be forever changing and in flux and have to be re-examined. As she came to sort of her own piece with this, she also decided she had to share her story and not just her story, but she wanted to create a platform for others who were living with mental health struggles to be able to stand in their own story and do it publicly and remove the stigma and the shame.
Starting point is 00:01:22 This led to the creation of an organization called This Is My Brave, which creates events all over the country now where people can stand up and own their own struggle and have it normalized and be embraced for who they are, regardless of what they deal with on a day-to-day basis. And also from that has emerged a really beautiful and powerful documentary. Really excited to be able to sit down and dive deep with my guest this week, Jennifer Marshall, and I am Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised.
Starting point is 00:02:04 The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.
Starting point is 00:02:40 Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. As we sit in the studio today, you run this organization, which really, I don't know if you would say shines the light on mental health issues. Really, it helps people tell stories in a really, in a human, normal, everyday way and normalize what pretty much every one of us is going to experience on some level at some point in our lives. And I want to dive into that because the work you're doing right now is really powerful.
Starting point is 00:03:12 But let's take a step back in time. Where'd you grow up, actually? I actually grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania. You're like one of the people who grew up. Does everyone pester you every time you say, like, I'm from Hershey, Pennsylvania? I'm from Chocolate Town, USA. I mean, it literally smelled like chocolate when you drove down the streets. That's amazing.
Starting point is 00:03:29 Yeah, it was an idyllic childhood. I mean, it was just, I had a great upbringing. I was raised by two hardworking parents, both career people. My dad worked for Hershey Foods for over 20 years. My mom was in real estate. Actually, I went to the Hershey tour once when my daughter was really little. I think it's obligatory if you live in the Northeast. And you ended up going to college. What'd you study? I studied marketing.
Starting point is 00:03:56 Right. Was that like a genuine Jones to learn it or was it just like you couldn't choose what I wanted to do? I had no idea what I wanted to do. And my dad said, just get a degree. Just study business. It's general. You can do anything with it. And it's true. But I mean, I remember having calls home saying, because I wasn't a great student.
Starting point is 00:04:14 I was very B, average student. I didn't get my first day until I was a senior. I remember calling home, because my friends would do really well in school, and say, I'm wasting your money, because they paid to send me to school. I was very lucky. And he said, just focus and get a degree. I found that I loved business. I like to figure out how, you know, companies were run and what was behind it.
Starting point is 00:04:38 And I enjoyed the creative side of it. So that's why I picked marketing. Yeah. So then coming out of school, what was your first move? What did you actually do? My first job out of college, I taught computer software. I taught Microsoft products. It was very random, but the economy wasn't doing well. I graduated in 01. Oh yeah. Everything tech-wise was just sort of like crashing then. So things are kind of going along and it sounds like the course that you plotted,
Starting point is 00:05:12 everything's just kind of going along the way that you intended it, you know, with whatever ordinary day-to-day stumbles are coming your way. But at some point things start to change. Yeah. Well, so I was in the corporate, I was training computers for a while and computer software and then landed in recruiting in a staffing agency. And I, again, knew nothing about that industry. I just applied for the job. I actually went to them to help me find a marketing job and they recruited me to work for them. So I said, sure, I'll give this a shot. And I was taught by the owner of the company and, you know, taught the industry. And I quickly made my way up through the company. It was a small firm, but it was their second office. And I became the top grossing recruiter in the company. I was making six figures by the time I was 25 years old, which was pretty
Starting point is 00:05:59 cool. But the stress of being responsible for that much business within the company I think caught up with me I mean who knows I think it genetics plays part too but my illness then emerged I had a when I couldn't sleep because I was so stressed about work and then it was like I crumbled you know like my your brain just kind of breaks when you don't sleep. And that's initially what they thought. So I landed in the hospital. And what were you, what were you actually experiencing? Like, what was it on a day-to-day basis? What was actually, what were you feeling then?
Starting point is 00:06:36 So that's the thing. It just kind of came out of nowhere. I was, I was high functioning, you know, high producer. And then all of a sudden I just started, I guess there was a little bit of anxiety, but that really wasn't the first symptom that came out. What came out was this racing thoughts. I can't turn my brain down. I got to get this done. I got to get this done. And so I would work really late and then I wouldn't be able to shut my brain down. So I couldn't sleep and I'd wake up and do the same thing over again. And this went
Starting point is 00:07:05 on for a week. And then at the end of the week, I started talking in circles. So I started trying to make a point, tell a story and make a point. And I could never get to the point. And that's when my coworkers knew something was wrong. And my husband, and he just, he reached out for help. He called the advice nurse hotline for our insurance. And she said, it sounds like from what you're saying, your wife is having a psychiatric emergency. And you're going to need to call 911. Because if you go to try to drive her to the hospital yourself, she could reach over and grab the wheel and you don't know what could happen. And so he did.
Starting point is 00:07:41 He had to make that call. Spent two nights in the hospital. And then came out and saw a psychiatrist for the first time ever. And he listened to my whole story and he said, it sounds like it was because you didn't sleep. Lack of sleep can bring this on. But I didn't have any history of mental health issues. So he couldn't point to anything. And he said, take some time off work and just relax, and then you'll be okay. But I did that, took a week off, started doing yoga for the first time ever.
Starting point is 00:08:13 I had never done yoga. When I went back to work, it felt good to go back to work. I felt like I was going home because that was my everything. I mean, yes, my husband, my friends, like we would go out and have fun and stuff, but I worked really hard. And then so I got back. It was the holiday season and we're rushing around giving gifts to all of our clients. So meeting them in person, it happened again on Christmas Day.
Starting point is 00:08:38 Being in the hospital on Christmas Day is probably one of the worst things ever. What was the thing that sent you back to the hospital? Was it this time your awareness and your decision or was it again? No, again, I was, I actually signed myself in that time, but I signed thinking I was like autographing something. No, again, it was the not being able to sleep, not being able to shut my brain down. It's your thoughts are just running a marathon and you can't get them to stop. So what you need is to be admitted to the hospital. They have to put antipsychotic medications into your system. And if you don't agree to take them by mouth,
Starting point is 00:09:17 they will put them in via injection, which I had to have. and came out of that hospitalization. And my parents had, actually getting me in that time on Christmas day, parents had no idea what to do. We were visiting my family in Florida for the holidays, and they opened the yellow pages. They're flipping through the phone book. They didn't know what to do. Finally, they called a friend who had a personal doctor who referred us. And while I was in there, they found another very good psychiatrist, got out, met him. I was still manic by the time I came out of the hospital. So this is- So they realize at this point though, that this isn't a thing. This isn't that you're stressed out and under slept. Something else is going on. Right. And he, at this point, was able to decipher
Starting point is 00:10:01 this seems like it could be bipolar disorder. So let's try this medication. And it was actually fairly new on the market. And I remember he said to my dad, my dad went in before me to this appointment because I had agreed to let my parents come in. And my dad said, you're going to see this young woman, but that's not my daughter. You know, like she's, she's, this is not her. And we went in, they do the appointment. He does the appointment.
Starting point is 00:10:28 The psychiatrist said, I think I can bring your daughter back. And we try this medicine. It starts working. Now, did you know when you mentioned he thought it was bipolar? Did you have any understanding of what that was? Had you, were you familiar with it before at all? No, no, no background, no exposure to any kind of mental health issue at all. So you come out and now you have a sort of tentative diagnosis.
Starting point is 00:10:55 And for the first time, would it be the first time now you're on medication? And what happens? So actually I was on medication when I came out of that first hospitalization. Okay. But when I told the doctor, it made my head feel fuzzy. I don't want to, I don't like this. He said, you don't need to take it. De-stress, take some time, you'll be fine. So I did have some medicine in my system from the first time, but wasn't officially on a medication. So this time was on it. And it was a matter of trying to come to grips with the fact that I just received a diagnosis that comes with a lot of stigma, and a lot of people don't want to talk about it. Even my parents at the time, like when I was diagnosed, I kind of wanted to understand it and wanted to figure it out. And they were reading a lot, but they didn't really want to talk about it. And it was hard to not have anyone to talk about it with except my
Starting point is 00:11:53 doctors. So I had a therapist at that point and a psychiatrist. You really need other people to talk to. So I found a support group, which was helpful. Yeah. What do you think their hesitation was with talking about it? I don't know. I think part of it might've been their generation. You know, back then, I think my mom had an aunt who had been institutionalized or a great aunt, you know, so it was kind of, those are the types of things you swept under the rug, I think. So, yeah, we were very—they were so supportive, though. You know, they would come to my appointments if I asked them to. They would visit a lot, you know, because they lived in Florida.
Starting point is 00:12:40 They still live in Florida. And I was up in Virginia. So they would check on me. I talked to them every single day. So now we're at the point where it was, that was in 2005. Those two episodes happened two weeks apart. And then the beginning of 2006, started on this medicine, started seeing my psychiatrist weekly, my therapist weekly. And I would call my parents, mainly my dad, but I would call and cry. I would just cry. Like, what is wrong with me? What's happening I guess, and the other side I'm sure is also for all of us, you just don't know. If this has never been a part of your day-to-day reality, and all of a sudden, and it wasn't like a slow introduction, just like in the blink of an eye, you're in the middle of the storm. You are living it from the inside out, but then those who love you are living it from the outside in. And who knows?
Starting point is 00:13:53 If you don't have the skills and the knowledge to understand what you actually do there, how do you? It seems natural that all you'd want to do is just offer love. And then hopefully in the background start to try and figure out, okay, let's learn more about how best to make this work. So you were married at the time also. How was, when you were in Florida, were you with your husband as well? Yeah, Ben was with me and he was always with me through everything, through everything. Can you imagine? I mean, just being married. And then all of a sudden, a lot of people go through things like
Starting point is 00:14:31 this where maybe your spouse gets a diagnosis of cancer or something, you know, and you, he lived his vows. He still does to this day. And at one point during 2006, I was so, again, just crying every day. And he would cook for me, and he would make sure I ate, because it was hard. With the anxiety, it makes it really hard to eat sometimes. And during that year, it was especially hard. I lost a lot of weight, and I'm not a big person, so I was, you know, I'm petite, so it was seen on me, but he would cook and he would take me, he'd say, let's go play tennis. We had a little tennis court in our townhouse community and we would go and hit the ball around. And, and what got me through that year, I think Jonathan
Starting point is 00:15:19 was that when we would go to bed at night and lay in bed, he would open his arms up and I would just lay against his chest and listen to his heart beating. And that contact of knowing that someone was holding you during this time that was so hard really got me through. Now that I can look back on it's been so many years, that was crucial. So I just think that's important for people to keep in mind if they have a loved one going through that. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's not so much what you say. It's just the quality of presence to a certain extent. Yeah. And maybe sometimes that's all you can bring. During that first year, during 2006. So it sounds like even though you were medicated and you were in therapy and you had a diagnosis, that didn't make everything okay. No. You're still struggling.
Starting point is 00:16:12 Far from it. I tried to go back to my job because I loved this job. I enjoyed the work of finding people a job and I couldn't, I couldn't handle the pressure anymore. I used to thrive under the pressure and then getting back in there in that fragile state, I couldn't do it. And luckily my husband and I were in a place where financially he could support us and I could take the time to get well. And so that's what we did, focused on getting well. But then the summer came and it was, my dad said, just get something, get you out of the house. You know, so I got a part-time job and that was helpful. But it was a struggle that year was probably looking back on the whole journey I've been through so far the worst.
Starting point is 00:17:10 So that, so I mean, to a certain extent, being able to work a bit, especially for somebody where like work was so central to your identity, you know, like you were the way you described it pretty much from the time you got out of college, like wherever you dropped in, you immediately became sort of like, you know, like the fast rising high performer in the organization. And then so, I mean, I would imagine it would have been a struggle not only to deal with what everything was happening, but also sounds like a lot of your very early identity was wrapped up in being this person at work. Yes. And I think that's a big part of that struggle in the beginning was this was me. I was this top-notch recruiter and hard worker and work hard, play hard. And then when we would have social events that year, it was so hard for me to go out because I was scared that my friends would ask, how's work or whatever, or ask what I was going to do next or something. And in that moment, in those moments,
Starting point is 00:18:05 I felt like crumbling and crying, you know, when they would ask something like that. So I avoided a lot of social situations and just, I don't know, buckled through. Did your friends know what was going on? My close friends knew. Yeah. Like two close girlfriends.
Starting point is 00:18:26 And I couldn't talk about it with anyone else. I just, but yes, it was, it was my identity. And I felt like a nothing after I lost that. I felt like I was, I was nobody who, and I struggled with who, who am I really? And what do I want? And it was a hard time. Yeah. So where do you go from there? So what happened at the end of that year was that the doctors threw in a medicine that one of the side effects was suicidal thoughts. And imagine a medicine that's supposed to help lift your depression. All of a sudden, you're having these horrible thoughts. And I luckily recognized them and verbalized it to my husband and my parents. And they said, we got to tell the doctor right away. And we did. And they took me down off that.
Starting point is 00:19:13 And then the next medicine I tried ended up being what works for me. But it was a slow, gradual working. It took three months to start feeling the effects of it. And when I did, little tiny pieces and slivers of my personality started coming back. Because in that year of 2006, I lost all my confidence. I lost every ounce of confidence. I just felt worthless. And then coming out of this, trying this new medicine, it started to, it was like I was emerging again a little bit. And it took me a couple months, and then I found a corporate recruiting job. And it was very laid back, and the people were so great.
Starting point is 00:20:00 And I worked there for a year. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.
Starting point is 00:20:23 The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th.
Starting point is 00:20:41 Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.
Starting point is 00:20:53 So you're starting to sort of step back into the real world, step back into your identity, seeing, you know, seeing who you knew to be start to reemerge to a certain extent into your life. And it felt good. Yeah. It felt really good. And then we wanted to try for a family. And I had had a year of stability, and I started to doubt that this was even a thing.
Starting point is 00:21:17 Like, do I really have bipolar disorder? Or maybe it's gone now. I mean, that was my thinking back then because we still, we knew more, but we just weren't, you know, completely educated that this is forever, you know. And I got pregnant. I had an early miscarriage. And then I thought, well, it was because of the medicine I was taking. So I'm going to go off that medicine. And I worked with my psychiatrist, and I had a perfect pregnancy with my son, my first, and I was not medicated and I did great.
Starting point is 00:21:51 So did you, I mean, when that happens, does that in a way kind of reinforce your question? Like, maybe I'm over it. Like, you know, like I've just went for 10 months, med free and I'm fine. Like maybe it was the thing in my past. Yeah. Until four weeks postpartum, I had postpartum psychosis, which is brought on by the postpartum period. And for me, for many women who have bipolar disorder type one, which is what I have, that is a huge risk for after pregnancy. And we just weren't as prepared as we should have been, I guess. But I landed in the
Starting point is 00:22:31 hospital. I had to stop breastfeeding. I had insisted upon breastfeeding. All my friends did it. It's the healthiest for the baby. I have to. Meanwhile, I wasn't sleeping. That's one of my number one triggers is no sleep and the lack of medication in the system. And I had no medicine because I was breastfeeding. Right. And then you layer in also, before you have a child, the decisions you're of, you know, like the expectations of what a mom quote should be and should be doing and all these other, you know, like views're, that's just compounding all the things that you're already feeling before. Did you feel those things and did it, do you feel like that affected that window sort of like the month or so and the decisions you made?
Starting point is 00:23:35 Yeah, I definitely, I think we have so much pressure that's put on new moms to do everything that's perfect. And I put a lot of that pressure on myself. And I think that having a child is what flips your world upside down, you know? Yeah. Even in the best of circumstances. Yeah. And then to put on top of that, a mental health issue. I mean, it just made it a lot harder, I think. And I mean, but the second time around was better. So, you know, I had loving support of my husband, my family, my in-laws and got through it. I was in the hospital for about a week. So I missed a week of my son's life.
Starting point is 00:24:20 Came out, had to figure out how to bottle feed him because it feels a lot different than breastfeeding. But we did and he adjusted fine. So, and then basically you're back on medication from that point. Exactly. And the doctor's response to me in medicine is she responds beautifully to medication, which is a very good thing. So I'm back on my medicine. I'm doing fine, you know, physically, but it's this emotional journey then to start of, okay, well, this, this is real now. You know, I mean, I, we knew it was real after the second episode, but after the third episode, it almost like drilled at home. Like this is Jen has this forever. And, and it was almost like my family got even more invested in keeping me healthy. Like my sister-in-law stayed with us for two weeks so that
Starting point is 00:25:05 we could get the baby sleeping and she would feed at night. And then, so we get through it and I delved into being a mom. And I, so I wasn't working. I was doing a little freelancing here and there with recruiting and it was awesome. I mean, I loved just focusing on being a mom. And I blogged on a family blog about, you know, to keep the family updated on how things were going. And so we take a peek at that now. It's fun to look back. And then we decided we wanted to have just one more, you know. And I said, I'll stay on the medicine this time. The whole time I'll stay on it. But I just don't want to be on it in the first trimester because that's when the baby's heart forms and the risk of this medication was a heart defect. And that's when, if it's formed, then I go back on it and be fine. But we got pregnant
Starting point is 00:25:56 and immediately I started tapering off the medication. So you can take a test, you know, two weeks when you're very early pregnant. And I took it and started coming off the medicine. And within a week, I couldn't sleep. I was so excited we were having another baby. I was thinking about baby names at night instead of sleeping. And I land in the hospital. And imagine, that time I think was even worse.
Starting point is 00:26:24 Because it was almost like a dream. And I say this in some of my talks when I talk about that time in the hospital. It was almost like I was unsure if I was really pregnant. I was walking through the hallways. I would grab this flower from the nurse's station and I would pull the petals off to say, like, it's a boy. It's a girl. It's a boy. it's a girl, it's a boy, it's a girl, it's a boy. I was so lost. I refused to take medicine pills. So they let me walk for a long time, walk up and down the halls. And then finally they had to pin me down. And of course,
Starting point is 00:27:01 I mean, you remember the trauma from the hospital, four people holding you down and forcing a needle into your hip. And then you go and you sleep and you sleep for a long time. You wake up and you're groggy. But then the process starts of, okay, I know I need to take medicine. And you start adhering to the medication schedule. And then you start coming out of the fog. I mean, it's really crazy. Yeah. What was the first trimester like, the rest of the first trimester like then knowing that you have to be on medicine through this window where you were
Starting point is 00:27:40 really concerned about it? Yeah, it was hard. I'm just like praying that the baby was going to be okay. And at one point, I called my, so I have a scene at high-risk OBGYN, and I had met with them about medication, and they said, there aren't a lot of studies out there, but this one seems to be the least worrisome. So I took that. And then at one point I said to them, I don't think I can do this anymore. It was during the first trimester. I was trying to stay on this other medication. And they said, if you want to go back on your normal medication that you feel you need it, we can do that. And so we did.
Starting point is 00:28:18 And then halfway through the pregnancy, they do a fetal echocardiogram of her heart. And she was fine. She was born healthy. What was that like going into like seeing that echocardiogram? Such a relief. I mean, then I felt like I could really enjoy the rest of the pregnancy. The first half was hard, just riddled with guilt over having to take medicine, but also fear of the unknown of how things would turn out. And were you able, it sounds like Ben was there, like at this point,
Starting point is 00:28:50 are you able to share all of this with him in real time and sort of be in it together? Oh yeah. He's a man of very few words. He's just, he's just a softly supportive, gentle, like he's there. But, you know, we didn't go into like detailed conversations about what if this or what if that. It was just, we just hoped for the best. And we were really lucky it came out. Yeah. So the rest of the pregnancy goes fine.
Starting point is 00:29:20 You now are mom of two beautiful kids. As you start to sort of emerge from that window and face forward and think like, okay, so where do I go from here? Like, what am I like? Yes. Okay. So now, you know, you're both parents of two young kids and that takes a huge amount of energy and you're dealing with, were you still symptomatic at all? Did it come and go or were you just completely good? No, that's the thing is I take one medicine and it keeps me stable because also I take very good care of my sleep. Because I think one of the things with bipolar type 1 is being on a regular sleep schedule can do wonders. And so I also liked to exercise. So I would go out and take walks with the kids and I would do, I forget, I got into beach body at one point and started doing workouts at home, stuff like that. And but feeling the itch to go back to work.
Starting point is 00:30:25 And so my daughter, I forget how old she was when I got back, but I had actually taken a job when I was four or five months pregnant with her. And I hid my belly when I went on the interview and they hired me. And then when I got there, I felt terrible. And I said, you know, I am expecting. And they said, oh, that's okay. We'll work around it. And so they did. And then they wanted me back after. So I took four or five months off and then went back part-time and it was the best of both worlds. So it was great. What happened, I think also right around that time was that I started to want to be more open about what I had gone through. When you go through things like that, again, you want people to talk to you about it. I had stopped seeing that support,
Starting point is 00:31:10 going to that support group I was going to before my son was born. And I just started looking and I looked for books and I found a couple of books, memoirs about people who had bipolar disorder. But then when I started looking into blogs, I found so much more. And I found people who were writing openly, but who were also writing anonymously. But just the way they were writing with this raw authenticity and this vulnerability moved me. And I thought to myself, you know, I could maybe start a blog. And maybe it would help someone. And so I tossed that around and- Maybe it would help you also just be able to like say what's on your mind in some way, share it. Yeah. And I think I saw the interaction between
Starting point is 00:31:58 all the bloggers I had been reading because it was back when people would comment back and forth on each other's blogs and they would do link ups and stuff like that. And I thought, this is awesome. It's a community. And so I started writing and I consulted my husband and I asked my mom and dad, what do you think? I want to write with my real name. And they said, nah, why don't you? They're hesitant. Yes. They said, why don't you write just kind of anonymously? And I remember my dad said, no, why don't you? They're hesitant. Yes. They said, why don't you write just kind of anonymously? And I remember my dad said, why your real name? Why are you so desperate to write with your real name?
Starting point is 00:32:32 And I said, because if I can help one person, it would be worth the risk of whatever discrimination I might face in the future. They were worried mainly about future employment because they knew I liked to work and I liked being a career woman. And so I started anonymously. How did that feel? It felt inauthentic. It felt not fully genuine, but it felt good to write.
Starting point is 00:33:04 So if I showed any pictures, it would be the backs of the kids' heads or just random pictures of scenery or whatever. It felt good to get stuff out on the page or on the internet. Yeah. Were people, did people discover it? Were people interacting with it? Yeah. I felt a lot of the community I had felt that I, the bloggers I had been reading started, you know, noticing. And so it was neat. I mean, it was, I wrote consistently for a long time. And after a year and a half, this editor found me. And I was on my way to a writer's conference.
Starting point is 00:33:43 And she found me and said, I love your writing. Will you write for us? It was the website What to Expect When You're Expecting. They had a mom blog section. She said, and we pay. Back then, people weren't really paying that much for bloggers. I said, yeah. What do you want me to write about? She said, how about being a mom with bipolar disorder? And I said, great. That's what I know. That's what I've been writing about. So I started.
Starting point is 00:34:08 And the first piece that they published was picked up by AOL.com because they were owned by AOL. And they put it on the homepage. And it said, what landed mom in the psych ward? Was that a family photo? And was that anonymous at that point? Or that was your name and your family photo? Mm-hmm. How did that go?
Starting point is 00:34:29 Well, my husband was supportive. My parents hadn't fully given their support. Yeah. And especially, I'm assuming you didn't choose that headline. No. Yeah. So when you saw that headline, I mean, just personally, what was your- You know what?
Starting point is 00:34:44 It didn't bother me. Yeah. Because it you saw that headline, I mean, just personally, what was your- You know what? It didn't bother me because it was true. It was a post about how I didn't sleep and I landed in this situation and I was figuring my way out. And a lot of people noticed the piece. That whole day, I still remember I was sitting at the dining room table and I got email after email. And in those messages, people would say, I read your story. Thank you so much for talking about this. And then they would turn around and tell me their story in every message. And I got notes from like friends from way back in the day who said, I saw your piece because it hit Facebook then and everything. And they said, I dealt with depression or I've been dealing with anxiety forever. And so it just was validating. It was like, you know, we need to talk about this.
Starting point is 00:35:39 I mean, it must've been eyeopening too too to see not just the gratitude coming back to you, but so many people sharing, yeah, I've been struggling too. Like I'm in pain too, or I have been in pain too. Were you, I mean, did you have any expectation that that would happen? That people would start to open up to you? No, I don't think I knew that. I thought I'd get some gratitude. I thought I'd get some thankful reactions, but I never expected to also hear everything back. as MBA in sustainable innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's
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Starting point is 00:37:16 Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die and center and what you've been living with. When that actually, you know, goes live and then kind of explodes?
Starting point is 00:37:47 It's not just, hey, an article on this one website. It's sort of all over the web. What did it feel for you to go from writing similar stuff anonymously to now writing and being in front of millions of people with your name publicly attached to it? One thing happened in regard to my parents and them not fully backing me going public. My mom had said back when I started writing, how can you make this decision for your kids?
Starting point is 00:38:18 How is that fair? And they're so young. What if they, you know, she said, what if the parents at your kid's preschool find out and don't let their kids play at your house because you have bipolar disorder? And I said, Mom, I wouldn't want to associate with them then. I would want them to understand. And it was, you know, her cautioning me. But I guess also I felt as though she wasn't accepting of it too.
Starting point is 00:38:51 So it was hard. I did question, am I making the right decision? But when I fast forward to where I am now, I know 1,000, 1 million percent I'm making the right decision. Yeah. And the flip side is also neither of us can tell somebody else what their right decision is, right? This was right for you. get the concern about not wanting to do something which may in some way cause your children distress or make a decision on their behalf. And yet at the same time, there's an assumption that this thing is shameful, that people shouldn't know about this because there's some level of
Starting point is 00:39:48 shame associated with it. And it's almost like not hiding behind something or not being public with it propagates the assumption that shame should be sort of like perpetually connected to it. And again, this is really easy for me to say from an outsider looking in who's not been through what you and so many have been through. But that's just what comes to my mind. I'm wondering if that was any part of your internal sort of conversation. Yeah, it was a little bit. I mean, again, I think it's a generational thing,
Starting point is 00:40:24 but I think that it's shifting so much now. Yeah. In no small part because of what you then went on to do. So now you're public and you're writing under your name and you're getting a lot of attention, but writing wasn't enough. Yeah. I mean, a friend had a show that was a storytelling show about motherhood. And I thought, I had taken my mother-in-law and she said, Jen, you could do a show like this, but about mental illness. And of course, I hesitated to think, I can't take my friend's idea.
Starting point is 00:40:58 But if I do something similar and add in creative elements like music and poetry and even dance, you know, expression, creative expression, you know, it'd be different. And so I had this concept, I want to do a show where we can open up the conversation and celebrate these people who have gone through these struggles who now want to share to help others, to help others feel less alone and to open up this conversation. So I had this concept. What a lot of people don't know is that I launched it and we failed and it wasn't very far in the process, but I initially launched with a woman I met at that writer's conference where I got the invitation to write for What to Expect. And we were butting heads creatively. We had called it Don't Call Me Crazy. And I'm so glad we didn't go with that name. I'm so glad it changed,
Starting point is 00:41:50 you know? So glad I went through that failure. And when I came out, came up with the concept of this is my brave. And I met a woman who would become my co-founder at a party. And I said, I need help. I can't do this by myself. And she said, I love this idea. Yes, I will help you. So what was the idea at that point then? So the idea was the stage concept of bring these stories to the stage
Starting point is 00:42:15 and put these people on it, give them a platform similar to the platform I had with What to Expect. I didn't have huge numbers on my blog, but when I got elevated to AOL and lots of people saw it, it really reached a lot of people. So what if we give people a platform and create the stage for them? And so the idea was to bring people from the local community together who were ready to tell their stories and put this production together. So we decided we needed money and we needed $6,500 to rent our theater in the DC area.
Starting point is 00:42:52 We put together a plan and we launched it on Kickstarter. And in 31 days, we raised over $10,000. How did you, so you end up doing this first event. What was it like finding people who were willing to take the stage and tell their own personal stories similar to yours? It was awesome. I mean, we put the call out on social media. All the people who saw our project on Kickstarter, but then also on local flyers, coffee shops, the library. And we were blown away by the talent that came forward. We had to say no to some people because we had too many people and not enough time. That surprised you, by the way?
Starting point is 00:43:40 A little bit. A little bit. But it surprised Anne-Marie more. She was a little more skeptical than I was. But we like almost like American Idol, like we're sitting at this desk and these folks are coming up and they're like slam poetry and music and these just heart-wrenching essays. And we just were like, we have a show. It's amazing. What was it? I mean, so you kind of have to do two things, which are, it's a challenge no matter what type of event you're doing, you know, to get a storytelling based event where you've got
Starting point is 00:44:13 great storytellers telling great stories. And then on the other side, an audience who wants to show up and actually listen, tell this. So now here you've got, you've amplified this challenge dramatically because now you need great storytellers telling great stories about something that is deeply personal to them and very often they've been judged for when they've shared it at different points in their lives. So you've got to find people who are willing to go there in front of a public audience. And then at the same time, I have to imagine, this is not the same sort of like, you know, like papering and flyers that you put up for a TEDx or your traditional or the moth or traditional storytelling event,
Starting point is 00:44:53 where like, this is a very like, the audience, I got to imagine you're like, you're looking, okay, so I'm going to go to a show to spend an evening listening to people tell the stories and perform the stories of the deep struggles that they have been through, which may be triggering for a lot of people in the audience as well. I'm curious how you sort of, how you experience or how you shared or promoted the conversation to those who would attend. So keep in mind, it was our first time ever, ever. I don't have any theater experience pulling something like this together. And we just were like, we're just going to do it.
Starting point is 00:45:34 And we had some local support groups. I think we had NAMI there the first year, tabling. And we got in local magazine. We got on all the local news stations that covered it ahead of time and we had the support of all the people who backed our kickstarter part of the rewards they got tickets so we filled half the theater before the we even planned the show which is great but yeah i mean even promoting the shows now it's it's, it's just, these are your neighbor. These are people you know. These are your, you know, friends. And it's a privilege to be in the audience and hear these stories. And
Starting point is 00:46:14 then they're changed as a result. And so it's this dramatic thing that happens at the shows that's really cool. But I think that, yeah, the audience gets filled by supporters who just, who know that it's important to learn about these things. Yeah. And I would imagine also supporters who maybe are also bringing a friend who's struggling, who needs to be there and see they're not alone. Yeah. So as we moved through the years, the last couple of years, we've added more supportive elements. So like at the L.A. show a couple of days ago, we had Crisis Text Line was there with a counselor in case anyone needed to talk to anyone. And we have a new partnership with Mental Health America where if you're in the audience and you feel you hear something from a story that might hit you that, hey, I might've gone through, I might be going through something like this. Mental Health America has online screening tools
Starting point is 00:47:08 with all different mental health conditions you can take confidential at home. So we hand out postcards with that information. So from that first show, when that first, very first show wraps up and the last person like takes the stage and then leaves the stage and you look out in the audience and you look at all these beautiful storytellers and and your partner what's going through your mind we did it and that was it i mean like that show was flawless and incredible and it'll always be my favorite. Just so proud of all the people, not only the storytellers on stage, but proud of the audience for being there and being a part of it with us. They made it happen with their funding and their support. So that was really cool. Just excited about where to go next after that. Yeah. I mean, was it clear to you at that point, like, okay, this needs to get a lot bigger. This needs to bring it here. And we said, okay, awesome. We've done it once. It was a success.
Starting point is 00:48:30 We'll build this toolkit on how to do it and we'll get you the toolkit and you guys run with it in your community. And so that's how we did it. And we would have calls weekly with them and just support them. And then we got to go and see their shows. So that was neat. So now when was the first show? 2014, May. So, so now we're, you know, chunk years into this. You've had shows all over the country. Have you gone outside of the U.S. now also? We have an arm in Australia. We have a guy, Tim Daly over there who had his own bout with depression and anxiety. And he connected with me on Facebook and said, Jen, I want to bring this to Australia. And I said, great.
Starting point is 00:49:06 And so we've been working together. He ended up setting it up as a nonprofit over there using our identity and everything because we're partnering together. And he's running it over there. He's got shows. He's got a show coming up this month. So this has become a foundation now where you've got shows going on all over the place. As this starts to become bigger, which generally involves complexity and stress and work, are you concerned at all? Or are you sort of constantly monitoring, okay, so how am I doing in relationship with this thing that I'm now building? Because I want it to go out into the world and do good.
Starting point is 00:49:40 But at the same time, you know how critical your own self-care is. Oh, definitely. And I tell that to my staff. I now have a staff of, there's three of us full-time and we have two part-time and a bunch of consultants. And it takes a huge community to do this. And they're my team and they're extensions of, you know, us, these volunteers in these cities that do the shows wouldn't do it without them, you know? But yes, I'm very aware of taking time. I mean, I joined a yoga studio in my town and I try to go a couple of times a week and I just, there's always going to be work to be done, you know? So I just shut down and do that hour and a half and go home.
Starting point is 00:50:23 So you just have to build in the self-care. And I tell my team, I'm just so much more aware of it now. So now that your kids are a bit older, have they been to shows? Yes. What's their response? Like, how do they experience it? Well, you know, they're young still. So the last show they were at was, I think, 2016 or 2017. So trying to keep them quiet. they're on iPads sometimes, but, but they, I talk to them every day about what I do. I mean, they know that we tell these stories to,
Starting point is 00:50:53 to end the stigma, to get people to understand that it's conditioning your brain is just the same as any other condition that affects another body part. So, and my kids have been to been to therapy, when I lost Anne-Marie, so my co-founder died last year, she had a heart attack. I experienced my fifth hospitalization. And unfortunately, my biggest fear in living with this condition came true that they would see me experience a manic episode. And they did very briefly. And my support team went into action and Ben texted my best friend. She came to get the kids. My mother-in-law came, was there to take them to school the next day. Ben and his dad drove me to the hospital instead of going in a police car because the second, the third and fourth episodes I went through, I went in a police car in handcuffs. So it's a different reality, but they had some trauma from seeing
Starting point is 00:51:50 their mom sick. And we immediately went into therapy and they've seen a very good child therapist and they're doing great. And that's, we're, we're privileged that we are able to get those resources, but it's also, I want them to grow up in a world that they know that brain illnesses are just like a cancer or a, it is cancer of the mind really, right? I mean, same as diabetes, same as a heart disease. You take a medicine, you take care of yourself and you can do well 99% of the time. Yeah. I mean, not necessarily easy, but powerful thing for them to experience and to know, just to know that, yes, this exists. This is not something which is a source of shame or stigma and there are things you can do and be okay. Yeah. My son loves therapy. I mean, and it's, I think everyone needs a therapist. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's a
Starting point is 00:52:53 good thing. Yeah. So as we sit here today, you're in a place where the last year certainly hasn't been easy, but you're, it seems like you're in a good place and it seems like what you've created is growing and making a real difference in the world. Do you think long-term about it right now, or is it more, this is the work that I'm here to do now and sort of holding the future lightly? I have so many big dreams, but right now I'm trying to take it day by day. We have an incredible documentary coming out in January. It's a short documentary. And we have, you know, ideas of what we're going to do with it and what it might lead to.
Starting point is 00:53:38 Because I think ultimately we want to get on a bigger platform. We want to reach more people. Right now, This Is My Brave has done 47 shows across the U.S. and in Australia. Over 675 people have come on our stages to tell their stories. That's big to me. I mean, I don't know of any other group that's had that many people come forward in front of live audiences to tell their truths about an important issue that is an epidemic in our country right now that we're not talking about enough. And I think that it builds that connection and understanding. And I think that when we can reach more and more people. So I'm excited about what the film will do.
Starting point is 00:54:24 I'm excited about, you film will do. I'm excited about what the future holds, but it's not totally clear to me yet. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, you don't have to. Yeah. This feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So I offer out the phrase to live a good life. What comes up for you? I think what comes up for me is connection with people, with every person we meet and
Starting point is 00:54:48 holding space for their story to know that everyone has gone through some kind of struggle, whether it's a mental health issue or divorce or grief from losing someone, everyone has gone through something. And just feeling that connection when you get to spend time with people and get to meet them, that's why we're here on this earth, I think, is to connect with people. So I hope in my life,
Starting point is 00:55:16 I'm living a good life by connecting people. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code
Starting point is 00:55:45 for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the
Starting point is 00:56:05 love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet-black aluminum. Compared to previous generations,
Starting point is 00:56:55 iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg
Starting point is 00:57:09 You know what the difference Between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot if we need him Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk

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