Good Life Project - Joan Osborne | A Life of Music, Travel & Activism

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

I still remember the first time I heard Joan Osborne’s iconic song, One of Us. I was 29, a couple of years into my career as a federal enforcement attorney with the SEC, and not loving my time in the industry. Asking big questions, when I turn on the radio and hear Joan’s soulful blues voice, asking “what if God was one of us?” It stopped me in my tracks. That was 1995, and that song still has the same effect on me. It also changed the trajectory of Osborne’s career and life in ways that still affect her.Joan was a fixture in the downtown New York music scene in the 90s. But when her debut album, RELISH, came out and One of Us took off, it exploded her into music super-stardom, led to 7 Grammy nominations, and fueled what has become a decades-long career populated by world tours, many more albums, a deepening commitment to weaving together music, advocacy, and activism, and collaborations with everyone from the Funk Brothers to Stevie Wonder, The Grateful Dead, Pavoratti, Bob Dylan and so many more. And, what’s even more amazing, Joan never expected to have a career in music. In fact, it all started as a dare from a friend at an open mic night in an East Village club while studying to be a filmmaker at NYU, a story she shared in our conversation.When the pandemic made it impossible to tour, she took these last few years to do a little organizing around the house and, in the process, discovered a treasure trove of old recordings and demos, many from her years of live performances at radio stations, and curated them into her latest release, Radio Waves. And, to her great joy, she’s now back on the road, so be sure to check our her live performance dates and catch her on tour once again.You can find Joan at: Listen to Radio Waves Now | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Liz Phair about her life in music.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED.Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think music has a very important role to play in the world right now because of the very unique power that it has. You know, it's just, it's thrilling and I love that. I think there's really nothing like the feeling of live music. So there is this magic of making music and I really want to stay in touch with that. So I can literally still remember the first time I heard Joan Osborne's iconic song, One of Us. I was 29, a couple of years into my career as a federal enforcement attorney with the SEC, and not loving my time at all in the industry, asking big questions when I turn on the radio and I hear Joan's soulful blues voice asking, what if God was one of us? It stopped me in my tracks. Now that was 1995.

And that song still has the same effect on me. It also changed the trajectory of Osbourne's career and life in ways that affect her to this day, nearly three decades later. So Joan, she was a fixture in the downtown New York music scene in the nins. But when that debut album, Relish, came out, and One of Us, which was on that album, took off, it exploded her into music superstardom, led to seven Grammy nominations, and fueled what has become a decades-long career populated by world tours, many more albums, a deepening commitment to weaving together music and advocacy and activism activism and collaborations with everyone from the Funk Brothers to Stevie Wonder, the Grateful Dead, Pavarotti, Bob Dylan, and so

many others. And what's even more amazing, Joan never expected any of this to happen. She didn't expect to have a career in music. In fact, it all started as a dare from a friend at an open mic night in an East Village club while she was in New York studying to be a filmmaker at NYU, a story that she goes into in our conversation. And when the pandemic made it impossible to tour, something she has literally been doing for decades, she decided to take these last few years to do a little organizing around the house, as so many of us have done, and in the process, she discovered, she stumbled upon literally this treasure trove of old

recordings and demos she had completely forgotten that she had. Many from her years of live performances at radio stations and curated them into her latest release, Radio Waves. And to her great joy, she's now back on the road. So be sure to check out her live performance dates and catch her on tour once again. I am so excited to share this conversation where we go deep into so many of the big awakenings and moments along this journey in music and activism and advocacy and creativity and life. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. So much of your world and so much of your work has been on the road. There are some musicians who love the studio. There are some musicians who sort of like, you know, they duck in, they create an album every five years, and then you kind of don't hear from them.

And that's not you. Like your MO from the earliest days has been taking it to the people. I've always been I love that feeling that you get when, you know, it's like two o'clock in the morning and everybody's, you know, sort of half exhausted and half lubricated. And, and, you know, you and the band have gotten to this sort of group mind place and, and the audience is with you. And, you know, it's just, it's thrilling. And I love that. I think there's really nothing like the feeling of live music. So that's kind of what got me addicted to it in the first place. I was not really a studio person or into the whole engineering side of it. And I learned to enjoy that and I learned to really understand more about what that's about. But for me, the city late 80s and early 90s as well. And I feel like there was something kind of magical about the music scene there,

especially like what's now the Lower East Side, but it used to be Alphabet City and Tompkins Square and all that whole area. There was a magic there that I think was, there was a season that it seemed like anyone and everyone was just in that space. Yeah, it was an amazing time and an amazing place. And there was so much live music going on and there were so many little clubs.

And there's a lot of blues and roots music and there was sort of a vogue for that. But then there was also the singer-songwriter thing. And you had people like Jeff Buckley playing in these little tiny rooms like Sinead in the East Village. And, you know, you had these sort of jam band groups like the Spin Doctors and Blues Traveler that were playing in these little clubs. And it was a really, really vibrant scene. And everybody was really supportive of each other too you know that you would go out on a night and go and sit in you know if you didn't have your own gig you would go sit in with this band and then you'd run up the block and go sit in with that other band and and it was

a really nice sort of uh you know mutually supportive thing and i don't think you know especially in the beginning people were not really thinking about oh we're going to get signed and we're going to become, you know, rock stars or anything. It was just like, wow, look at this thing that we're doing. We're playing these clubs in New York and, and packing them and people are dancing and having a great time. And then we're all going to hang out afterwards. And you know, when you're a young person, that's like, that's just amazing experience, you know, forget trying to get anywhere from that. It was like, we're here already. We're doing it. Yeah.

No, I love that. It's interesting also, right? Because so you end up from what I understand in New York in the first place. A lot of people, if they have a musical impulse, then wherever they're from, they either go to New York or L.A. or a couple of other cities, Nashville. You come to New York from a small suburb of Louisville, Kentucky, but not for music. Your initial step into this big, beautiful city is something very different. Yeah. I was going to NYU film school, actually, and was really, really interested in filmmaking. And as I took classes at NYU and got more into it,

I started to really love documentary filmmaking. And that's kind of what I thought my career path was going to be. I thought I was going to become a documentary filmmaker. But, you know, I just kind of fell into this music scene by accident. I mean, I had done a lot of singing when I was, you know, a kid. I sang in choruses in school when I was, you know, 12, 13 years old. And, you know, my music teacher then was very complimentary. And so I knew that I had a nice voice. But, you know, I didn't really, you know, when you grow up in this little town in Kentucky, you don't think about becoming a musician and making records as like a really legitimate career path. You know, it's like, that's a fantasy. And, you know, who do you think you are thinking you could do that? So it wasn't something that I ever took seriously in that way. And I just kind of accidentally fell into the music scene. Yeah. I want to hear that story, but I'm also curious about your impulse for documentary filmmaking. Because you described this, well, like most people don't look at music and say, well, that is a fantastic way to make a solid living. You can kind of make that argument about documentary filmmaking too. But the monetary aspects of it was the first thing in my mind. I just loved it and I thought it was cool.

And I felt like the documentaries that I was seeing, you're meeting all these people and all these characters and hearing all these stories that, as they say, truth is stranger than fiction. So you have these people that you could never write into a script and these very unique outlandish characters and these situations that you could never come up with in a million years if you were a fiction writer. So for me, it was just so exciting and

so interesting. And I still love watching documentaries. And I think that's one really cool thing about this whole video streaming revolution is that it's been really good for documentaries. And as someone who loves them and loves to watch them, it's great to just like sit on my couch and get all these amazing documentary films, you know, dumped into my lap. But as you say, it was not, probably wasn't a great career move back then. And maybe it's not now either. And, you know, music, I don't know. I mean, it's been good for me. I don't know that it's, it's a lot different than it used to be. Let's, let's say that.

Yeah, no, the world has changed in dramatic ways. But I mean, I think with music and pretty much any form of media to no small extent. Talk to me about this moment that everything changes in the context. So you're hanging out, you're going to NYU, you're studying film in your mind. Okay, so this is maybe this is the thing I'm going to do coming out of here. And you have a background. You know that you have a voice. You get, I guess from what I understand, almost on a dare. Yeah, yeah. You end up on stage in the village.

Yeah, well, I was living in the East 20s. And I think at this point I was like taking a semester off because I had run out of money. I was putting myself through college and I'd run out of money and I needed to get a bunch of jobs and save some money to go back. And this guy who was living in my building invited me to go out for a drink with him. And so I was like, sure, this guy was really cute. And we went out and the very first place on the corner was this bar called the Abilene Cafe, which was a blues bar. It doesn't exist anymore, but it was there for a little while. And they had an open mic night once a week and we just happened to be there on that night.

And I think the band and all the open mic stuff had already happened, but the piano player was still there. It was pretty late I'll buy the drinks if you go up and sing a song with this guy. So, you know, being the broke, hoping to go back to college person that I was, I was like, okay. So I went up and talked to this piano player and asked him if it would be okay if I sang. And we realized, you know, we tried to think of something that we both knew. And I was a big Billie Holiday fan. And so I asked him if he could play God Bless the Child, the Billie Holiday song. So he did. And I sang it.

And, you know, it wasn't like there was a big, heavy producer in the audience who was like, I'm going to make you a star. It was just that this guy said, oh, that sounds nice. Why don't you come back? We have an open mic night here once a week. And so I started doing that. And there was just something for me that was so galvanizing about singing. You know, first of all, I was like, wow, I'm in New York City and I'm in a club and I'm actually singing. And it's like, whoa, just that was sort of mind blowing. And then, you know, when you're doing film, it's much more of an intellectual thing. And it's like, whoa, just that was sort of mind blowing. And then, you know, when you're doing film, it's much more of an intellectual thing.

And it takes all of this technology and all these large groups of people. And, you know, it's this thing that you plan out for months and months. And it's just a totally different process. Whereas singing, you know, of course, you can prepare for that. But the actual thing that you're doing it's much more immediate it's much more physical it comes from your body you're surrounded by all these other musicians who are you know making this sound and the vibrations of the music is going through your body and going into the audience's body and it's it's just a totally different experience and

there was something about it that just really blew me away. And even though I was very, very nervous, I would be like sick to my stomach right before going, stepping on stage. And I would close my eyes really tightly and grab onto the mic stand. I was kind of terrified to do this, but there was something about it that just kept me coming back again for more. Yeah. There is something so magical about being in a room with other human beings and that resonance that happens in that moment, right? It's really primal. It's interesting. Yeah. No, I so agree. Especially when you feel, literally, it's almost like I feel like there are these moments where, especially in a small club,

right? Where there's a vibration and it's almost like every human being in the room starts to attune to that vibration together. Absolutely. It's like you're all just in it. It's almost like you're transported out of that room and there's something else going on. I mean, I'm sure that if a person who's like a physics guy would be able to say, yes, these sound waves are actually physical waves that travel through the air and your body does vibrate with them in some way. So I think there's probably some science to back it up. But for me, I agree. There's a lot of magic going on. Yeah. So I'm curious now, you start doing this, something happens that first time you do it and you keep going back to it. You're on a bit of a break from NYU, but still at that

point intending to go back, right? But somewhere along the way, something happens where you're like, all right, so I'm actually not going back. This feels like the thing that I want to lean into. I'm curious about that process. Yeah. Well, I mean, it didn't happen right away. I just, because I was so interested in going to this open mic night, I would do that every week. And I started meeting other musicians who would come to the open mic nights and started talking with them. And they told me that there was some other places right in the neighborhood that also had open mic nights. And there was a Sunday afternoon at a place called Dan Lynch's on the corner of 2nd Avenue and 14th Street. And there was another open mic night. I think this

place was called the Wonderland Blues Bar up on 2nd or 3rd Avenue, you know, just a handful of places. So I started going to these things and, you know, signing my name up on the list of people to get up and sing. And, you know, I started to, because they were mostly blues clubs, I started listening to a lot of blues records, a lot of Etta James records, and, you know, Howlin' Wolf and Muddy Waters and Otis Redding and people like that just to try to, you know, I could only sing that one Billie Holiday song so many times. And so I wanted to get some other songs. And just, you know, that process and meeting all these other musicians, becoming friends with people who had their, you know, bands that were gigging, you know, that night.

And so I would go and see their gigs and sometimes they would call me up to sing a song. And, you know, slowly but surely I, you know, met a bunch of other players and I started to put my own band together. And once I had a band together, you know, we made like a little rehearsal cassette and I started taking it around to these clubs where I had been doing the open mic nights and trying to get a gig myself. And, you know, it's a little bit of a catch-22 if you've never had another gig in town. Right. They don't want to take a chance on you. So it took me a while, but eventually I think somebody had a cancellation and they were, you know, they called me up and

said, if you can do this night, we'll book you. So, you know, I was so thrilled and also terrified that, oh my God, I'm going to have my own show in a club in New York City. And, you know, this is amazing. I better make sure that a whole lot of people come so that they'll book me again. So I, you know, every person I knew, I was like calling them and, you know, and saying, please come down to the show. And, and, you know, we had enough of a crowd that first night that they, the guy who was booking the club said, okay, well, how about two or three nights next month? And from there, I was able to go to some other clubs and say, well, we're playing two nights a month at this

club. Can you book me at your club? And just bit by bit, I started working and I was working so much that I realized that I could support myself doing this. And then once that started happening, I was like, you know, this just feels like something I need to pursue. And, you know, I was, I was loving it so much. And the response that I was getting from the audiences and from the fellow musicians, I felt like maybe I've got something to offer. And, you know, that is just unique to me. And maybe this is worth doing. You know, film school will always be there. Documentary filmmaking will always be there. Let me see what I can do with this. Because if I don't try, I think I'll always wonder what would have happened, you know? Yeah, it's that regret that you don't want to have, right? No, no, I didn't want to be like...

You know, these other things are always going to be available to you if you want to go back to it. Yeah, I didn't want to be like 80 years old and being like, wow, remember that time? And I could have been a singer and then I just chickened out. And, you know, you don't want to think about you want to think back on your life like that. So. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push,

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I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. So you start playing around pretty regularly in New York. And the other curiosity is around then also is like when you start to make the jump between, okay, so I know Billy's song and let me learn some of these other songs out there but maybe i also have this thing inside of me that like has my own stories and my own songs and my own my own music to share with other people but that's a very different impulse than sort of like a pure singer like a songwriter they'd almost exist in the same person. And so I'm wondering how that side really started to emerge with you. Um, you know, again, I think I was really,

really nervous to do it. And, you know, I, I thought to myself that I, that I wanted to try it and, and I thought maybe, you know, I was, I had learned a lot at film school and I had these sort of images in my mind that could be translated into, you know, poetic lyrics. And, you know, listening to a lot of these blues records and a lot of these things, I thought, wow, maybe there's a way that I can, you know, I'm not ever going to be one of the greats like, you know, Muddy Waters or Willie Dixon or anybody like that. But maybe I can do something that's cool just for my own. But I was also very, very nervous about that because you have to have a lot of confidence to walk into a rehearsal space with a bunch of musicians and say, here's my new song that I wrote if you've never written a song and if all they know you as is somebody who sings other people's songs. So I was really shy about it. And it was something that I did because I felt like I could do it, but I was also scared to do it. But, you know, eventually I just tried

enough and, you know, got to the point where I was putting a lot of original songs into the shows that I was doing. Now, I will say, I don't know that I'm, you know, I still feel like I'm not the greatest songwriter in the world. And I've had that I'm, you know, I still feel like I'm not the greatest songwriter in the world. And I've had a lot of, you know, great experience writing with other people. And I feel like that's an amazing thing. I've also written songs on my own, but I don't consider myself, you know, a songwriter like a Ryan Adams or somebody like that. You know, that's a different level of it.

I feel like there's things that I can do that are unique to me and I want to do them. But I don't think I'm any great shakes as a songwriter. It's interesting to hear you say that. I'm so fascinated by our own perceptions of ourselves and what we create and other people's perceptions of us. I would love to have another musician who you were working with right around then also you've been working with for years or reflect back to you you like what like their lens on that but i'm curious also so you're playing around you're writing your own stuff um you're really something like energy

is starting to build behind you and in in 91 you make a really interesting decision in creating your own label womanly hips and which is if i have the timing right, probably, I'm guessing it's about maybe a year or so after Anya DeFranco launches Righteous Babe, her own label, to really sort of take control over the entire process for herself. I'm curious what was behind your decision to say, I want my own label out in the world. Well, again, on this scene, on this club scene, it wasn't like we were all sitting around saying, oh, we're going to get discovered and get record deals and all that. That just didn't seem like it was a realistic expectation. So I, you know, I knew that, you know, I was aware of a lot of the punk DIY movements and, you know, and I, I knew that it was possible to put out records on your

own. I didn't know how exactly. Um, so I went to the library and I went to the bookstore and I researched it and there were these books about here's how to make and sell your own record. And so I, I bought them and, and, uh, I was aware of Ani DiFranco, but mostly it was the request of the fans really, that was the big push for me to do it. You know, people, we would do these gigs and at this point, you know, I had played in New York a lot and I had started going around to other cities like, you know, Burlington, Vermont and up to Boston and up to Rochester, New York and down to Philly and, you know, all throughout the Northeast, we had started to build a real following. And, you know, we were gigging a lot and people would come up to us after

the show and be like, I want to buy your album. Where is it? And I'm like, I don't have an album for you to buy. I'm sorry. So I was like, wow, we could, we're really kind of missing a good way to get some gas money here. So let me figure this out. And that's really, you know, the long and short of it. I wasn't, I didn't have some grand idea of like, oh, I'm going to be an independent, you know, label owner or anything like that. It was just like, well, nobody else is offering to do this. So I guess I better do it myself. Yeah. That's so funny. So it's just sort of like, it's, it was a response to demand. People kept asking you for albums. There wasn't somebody on, you know somebody in the industry saying, oh, we'll do that for you. So you're like, all right, I guess we're doing this.

Yeah. Again, there was not this big, at least not in those years, there wasn't this expectation of getting signed and making a huge success and all that. I was just in it because I love doing it. And it just seemed so real to me, you know, it was real. It was even, we were playing these little clubs, but you know, we had hundreds and thousands of fans and it was, it was great. Yeah. So you start doing that. You end up also then like through your label, doing a deal with Mercury for the first album, couple of years into this 95, I guess it is, is when Relish comes out into the world. And this is where this iconic song, One of Us, is on it. This song, it's one of those classic lightning strike moments, it sounds, at least from the

outside looking in. You've been working hard for years, developing your craft and your skill and gigging nonstop and doing all the stuff that musicians do, right? And so often musicians will do this for decades and that's the life. And they're okay with that because they get to show up and do this thing and be in a room with people doing, you know, like in collaborating with their band members. And they never had that one sort of like big moment. You do, Relish comes out. One of Us hits becomes this massive explosive hit. I think a lot of times we focus on the story of how incredible was that? What doors opened? How did it change your life? We had Peter Frampton on the show a little while back, and he was relating

his experience with when Phantom Comes Alive comes out. It's the biggest thing. It's the biggest live album ever. He's on the cover of Rolling Stone, the famous shirtless Gavulo shot. And Cameron Crowe writes the feature piece about him. And the industry is like, this is everything. And he's like the next thing. And he describes that moment as it was the best of times and it was the worst of times. In a lot of ways, he felt like it destroyed him and his career because it positioned him as you are a pop star now. And all he wanted to be known as was a great musician, a great guitar player. I'm curious for you, when you have this one moment, I'd love to know sort of like how that landed with you. Like what was, was there a best of times,

worst of times experience of that? Or was it just kind of like all good? I mean, you know, nothing is all good, is it? I will say this. I'm very, very grateful that that happened. And it did open so many doors for me. You know, I got to sing with Stevie Wonder, inducting Gladys Knight into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. You know, I got to fly to Italy and hang out with Luciano Pavarotti and sing with him at this big fundraising thing that he would do every year. I got to sing with Bob Dylan and record a song for a TV show. And of course we were gigging and the crowds just started getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And we, you know, we played in front of a hundred thousand people at the Olympics in Atlanta in 1996. And, you know, those are not experiences that I would have had if

one of us was not such a big hit. So I will always be grateful for that. And I think in some ways, it's partly responsible for the fact that I've been around as long as I have, because I think so many people came to, you know, know about that record relish through that song being such a hit. And then they also saw what else was cool about it. And, you know, those fans, you know, not all 3 million or whatever are still with me, but there's still a lot of them who are still with me. So I'm very grateful. Just on a personal level, it was not the most comfortable thing for me because, you know, I'm a more sort of quiet, reserved, shy person. And there, you know, there was a lot of, you know, people would follow me down the street. I just wanted to kind of hang

out, live in New York City. And I'd be like in the corner deli buying tampons and, you know, I'd turn around and there'd be three people following me through the store or, you know, I'd be walking down the street and, you know, somebody would like pull up on the curb and start honking at me and yelling. And, and, uh, you know, that was not super comfortable for me. And I wasn't, you know, like a movie star has got a whole phalanx of bodyguards or they're, you know, whatever, they're not walking around on the street in New York. But I was just like trying to live my life and as up with a follow-up album for Relish and really kind of wasn't able to do that for a long, long time. And that was very hard. But, you know, again, it was great. I will say this. I think the years and years that I put in before that record became a hit, they were just as satisfying in their way as having that kind of massive thing.

I mean, if you're making music for people and you're, you know, there with your band and you're playing and you're having a good night, in some sense, it doesn't matter if there's 20 people in the audience or 20,000 people, you know, it's the same feeling and it's a beautiful, wonderful thing to do. So I think having all those years of having that experience allowed me to feel confident to step out onto these larger stages and be able to do it, you know, and sort of know, you know, sort of know what it was about what I was doing that was good. And to have that sort of feeling of like, yeah, I do belong here because I've worked for this for a lot of years and I know what this is about. So I'm very grateful that it took all those years for that to happen.

You look at these people who are on, I don't know, America's Got Talent or these idol shows or whatever, and they step from this total obscurity into this huge spotlight. And I think, oh, my God, how can you even do that? Like, that's a crazy, crazy thing. I was very glad to have all those years of preparation before the big blow up single happened. Yeah. And you know what else occurs to me as you're describing that sort of like season is that you were in it, it sounds like very much to this day in it for the feeling, not for the fame. You know, so the fame comes in or brings certain opportunity with it, right? That may endure to this date to a certain extent, but fundamentally underneath it, like it was never your why. Your why was the feeling of, of like playing music and being with a band and being with people and having that,

that moment together, which I wonder if that was like something that could ground you almost, like no matter how, what else was spinning around you to a certain extent, it's because you were connected with the feeling less than the fame. Oh, for sure. And, you know, even if I had a day where I was like doing a whole day of interviews and press and, you know, having some kind of stylist or makeup person in my face all day and then trying to be in front, like trying to look cool for this or that thing or whatever, like all that stuff I felt a little bit lost in. But then at the end of the day, I could step out onto stage with my band

and there was the audience and that experience of performing live was there for me. So it definitely was something that, you know, was a real grounding and I love it to this day. Yeah. You end up, I mean, you've been touring for, it's always been a central part of what you do. You're always sort of like in rooms with people, which is interesting also because you describe yourself as quieter, as more introverted. And I think there's sometimes this association that if you're quiet and more introverted, that like being on a stage or being around large amounts of people actually is really uncomfortable for you. But I've seen, I have that similar wiring, by the way. And I love, like, I'll get up on stage and give a keynote to thousands of people, but then I need to vanish

away, you know, and just do my own thing. And I'm wondering for you with your just sort of social wiring, how you experience like being regularly around groups of people, like, did it give you energy? Did you need to recover from that? I mean, I think it is kind of exhausting in a way, but, you know, when you're, you know, there's a difference between stepping onto a stage to perform songs that you know very well, and you've got your little tribe with you, your band, and there's a lot of people there, but you're also kind of in this protected space. You've got the microphone, you've got your job to do. It's not like walking into a party where you don't know anybody and then you're just like super awkward and, oh my God, what do I say? And, you know, those are two different experiences. So in a way, being on that stage is kind of a protected place to be. Whereas if you're just out in the world and having to do some of the other things that

that level of success requires of you, you know, sort of servicing the fame part of it, you know, that can be awkward. And yes, I would definitely feel the need to just like close my door and not talk to anybody, you know, when I could. So that's definitely a part of who I am. I mean, that's why I have this place up in the Catskills is because, you know, I'm in the country. I don't have any neighbors close by. Nobody can see me. I don't have to talk to anybody. When I need to get away, I can you've always been a long-term fan of Dylan and even ended up actually performing, which must have been interesting for you,

especially when you put out an album with his stuff. I actually, it was interesting, before we headed out of New York City, we actually were a couple blocks from the Beacon. And just before New York shut down in 2020, Dylan was one of the last people who showed up there. So we grabbed tickets when we went to his show. And he was there.

And the band was just stunning. So good. Yeah. You know, here's a guy who Dylan's got to be what, like 80-ish now? I think he just turned 80 like either last year or the year before. Yeah. And out there on the road doing his thing packing the house you know and it it was interesting for me because i'm like you know people define success differently and i think

especially in the world of entertainment and music and yes he's iconic and yes he's like you know like one of the most prolific and stunning lyricists and songwriters and poets of our time but the fact that he's actually like out there performing with the people like you know on like this far into his career in his life it was modeling something that was just so inspiring to me yeah well i mean i look at him and you know a lot of the other people who are still out there doing it you look at you know bonnie raid and um i mean i was i'm a.B. King fan and he was out there doing it until he couldn't anymore. And, you know, there's like, what else are you going to do? If you're Bob Dylan or if you're B.B. King, are you going to sit around at home?

You know, of course you're going to go out. And like if you can do this thing of going out and performing with this amazing killer band and, you know, you step out onto stage and people are thrilled to see you. And, you know, I mean, that's not an experience that you're going to get in any other way. You know, you could be a big Hollywood movie star or whatever. You're never going to have an experience like that on a movie set. You know, this is like the real thing, you know? So, you know, what else are you going to do? Yeah. Is that for you? I'm curious. Is that sort of the ultimate aspiration for you to just keep being able to keep doing that for as long as you can? I mean, yes, I would love to be able to keep doing it. You know, it gets harder physically. And that is, you know, that's a real consideration. It takes me longer to kind of work up to a tour these days. Like before, I would just be like, oh, got to go on the road tomorrow. Okay, let's do it. And now I'm like, you know, doing my yoga for weeks in advance and

doing all my exercises and going to the gym and, you know, eating no carbs and sugar and all that kind of stuff because it's a very physically demanding thing, you know, the singing itself and then just the traveling and the not sleeping enough and all of that. So it's a different story now, but it's definitely still, you know, there's still nothing like it. And I mean, I do have a part of my personality, I think, where I would be fine just to like retire and just read books all day and go for walks in the woods. But that's only part of my personality. My other part really wants to be out there. And, you know, just there is this magic of making music.

And I really want to stay in touch with that. Yeah. And I feel like we need it more than her, but I also feel like the world needs it more than ever. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals.

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Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot Flight risk So it's interesting So I guess it was 2020 You come out with

Trouble and Strife Which was 9th album, 10th album Somewhere in there, right? I think it's 10 I So I guess it was 2020, you come out with Trouble and Strife, which was 9th album, 10th album, somewhere in there, right? I think it's 10. I'm not sure. I lost count. Legend has it, you write this entire thing in like three days and produce it in your basement in Brooklyn and then put it out into the world. It's in the middle of this season of chaos and a lot of stuff happening in the world. Normally, you would take an album like that and then you'd be on the road. You'd just be touring it and working the whole time. But then the world shuts down, literally, as you're working on this thing and then putting it into the world. It's a really interesting album, though, because fundamentally, it's speaking directly. It's the

most political album that I've heard, at least, that you've put out in terms of being overtly, look, there's stuff going on that I don't agree with in the world. I'm taking a stance. This is what I believe. And building music and offering stories around that. I was curious, do you have a sense for the role of music in protest, in social change, and a lens on what you feel you personally are compelled to do participating in that? Well, that's a really good question. And I think I was very hesitant to write political songs. Through most of my career, I would look at somebody like a Bob Marley or a John Lennon or someone like that and just think, well, I'm going to leave it to them because I could never do that. But, you know, 2016 happened and I have a daughter who is a teenager

and, you know, we were watching the election returns on November of 2016 and we were very shocked that it happened the way that it did. And we were very shocked at, you know, what happened in the weeks and months afterwards and how it seemed like the things that I understood about America were maybe not true anymore, that America was this land of people who had come from elsewhere to bring the best of themselves to create this country that was full of energy and full of enterprise. And yet here we were looking at people who were trying to come here to work as people who were unwelcome. And we were treating them almost like animals and so many other things going on. And I just felt like, well, what do you do when that happens, when something that you really didn't expect happens? And, you know, my daughter was watching me and I was very conscious of that. So I thought, well, what you do is you try to help people and you try to be a citizen, which I am and many people are, and you try to do what a citizen can do. You know, you educate yourself about the issues that you care

about and you call your representatives and you demonstrate in the streets and you donate or raise money for groups that you think are doing good work. But I also am an artist with something of a platform. You know, I'm not selling millions and millions of records anymore, but I do have something of a, you know, public face. And that's something that I can use and, you know, to, to get my thoughts and my opinions out there and to try to have some kind of effect, however small on the situation. And I felt like not doing that would really be to sort of turn my back on something that I felt was a responsibility at that moment. You know, we all have to pitch in, it's an all hands on deck thing, and we've got to do whatever each of us can do. So that sent me to writing. And, you know, I had a lot of bits and scraps and things that I had collected over

the years. And as you say, I just sort of locked myself into a room for three, four days and turned a lot of those into songs. And I had about nine or ten songs from that time, and I got together with the band in the basement, and we worked through them and started recording. And later I put myself in the room for another couple days and came up with another little batch of songs. And, and that's what became this Trouble and Strife record. Yeah. In addition to, to sort of like those songs, you described your

teenage daughter, one of the songs on there, Never Get Tired of Loving You is actually like, you know, like for her, you know, it's sort of a message of stability in an uncertain world to a certain extent. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, just to say this again, like I, I think that, you know, writing, you know, I'm describing this record, it's not like a lecture series or anything. Like I wanted music, I wanted the music to be able to do what music does, which is, you know, deliver messages in a way that can still be energetic and joyful and still, you know, let you let someone know that you love them and care for them. And that that's, you know, allow music to do what it does best. And I do think you sort of touched on this earlier, but I think music has a very important role to play in the world right now,

because of the very unique power that it has. Yeah, that's so great. There's something that, you know, two people from different walks of life and different beliefs and different opinions, can stand next to each other and be similarly affected. It speaks to something that is shared between us, right? It's like, oh, for a moment in time, like we're feeling something similar and maybe I can see a little bit of you and me, maybe you can see a little bit of me and you, and maybe that's just like a bit of an opening of a door there. Absolutely. And, you know, we've been unable to do as many live performances in the last handful of years as we would like to. But when we do have that opportunity, we really try to

take it because I think that power that you're talking about, that music has, it's one of the few arenas in our world right now where people of different political views, different parties, different opinions about this or that issue can come together. And, you know, that we're not insulting each other on Facebook or, you know, we're not, you know, yelling at each other. We're actually just looking at each other as fellow human beings and enjoying this amazing human experience of music. And I think that communities need things like that. They need places where so I heard a conversation with Eddie Vedder recently where he's talking about a change that happened in the way that he approached being a musician and working and writing when he became a parent. And he kind of described it as he said, you know, for me to write what I write, I need to go deep out into the ocean in the rough water and sometimes stay there for long, scary periods of time that are not safe. I said, when I became a parent, and I'm kind of paraphrasing him now, he said, you know, when I became a parent, I realized that my primary role was not to do that anymore, but I still needed to find a way to get that feeling, to find that state, but not be unsafe in that way because I needed to actually be safe and grounded and centered for my kids and for my family. I'm curious how, not even how, but if you feel like being a parent has changed

your process or your approach or the way that you think about leaning into the music. Well, I think it's changed in a couple of different ways. And the first way is just a simple, practical thing, which is that you don't have a lot of time to waste. When you are a parent, you've got a whole lot of stuff that you have to do all day, every day. And you might think that you're done with that job and then suddenly something happens and this project that you were working on for your music oh sorry you got to put that aside there's some emergency with the kid and whatever it's like you're on call 24 hours a day seven days a week and that becomes your primary focus so the times that you do have to work on your music you know i i think i could have been like the world-class procrastinator of

all time and i'd be working on a song and be like, oh, I didn't really get it today. Maybe I'll take a walk. You don't have time for that stuff anymore. You're just like, I got to get in there. I got to get this work done. I got to do it. And in a way, it's sort of liberating because you don't allow yourself to waste all this time. And it can be a real good thing for your self-discipline as a creator. And then I also think that just emotionally, it deepens the way that you look at the world and the way that you think about your place in it. Because I've been doing this for a long time and because I have this thought of my daughter as sort of, in a way, my most important audience member. I want to do something that can be part of a body of work that I can be proud of and that

she can be proud of as well. So I think it makes it all a little bit more meaningful in that way. Yeah. No, that makes so much sense to me. Trouble and Strife comes out and you love touring. You can't tour. Basically, automatically, the thing that you would normally. It leads to radio waves coming into existence because I have to imagine that. But for the fact that you're effectively, you know, like homebound for a solid chunk of time, you can't go out and tour. All of a sudden you're like, okay, so what do I do now? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I was stuck at home like so many other people. And, you know, I started doing these deep cleaning things that I had been putting off for years. And I saw the back of some closets that I hadn't seen since, you know, maybe the 90s. And I found all of this stuff. I found all of these CDs and cassettes and files and, you know, things that I had just forgotten that I had. And, you know, much of it was from visiting radio stations around the country from, you know, all the way you tour the country and every city you go to, you go to the local radio station in the day and then you talk to the DJs and you play a few songs live and then you're off to the next thing, your interview or your soundcheck or whatever. So we've done this

hundreds of times, myself and the different musicians that I've worked with. And a lot of times as we would be on our way out, the engineer would step up and hand me a CD and say, oh, this is what you did today. And, you know, I'd put it in my bag and throw it in my suitcase and, you know, stick it time to not only realize that it was there, but start listening through it. And I was kind of surprised at how much I liked it. I'm normally my own worst critic. And I really liked so much of it. And because so much of it was done at radio stations, the audio quality was really, really high. So I was like, whoa, maybe this could be something. I think, you know, especially if the fans can't come out and hear me live because of COVID, maybe I can put this out and it'll be, you know, something similar. Yeah. I mean, I have to imagine as you're discovering more and more and more and more, and this is decades of work, right? And I would imagine, I would guess that a lot of it you didn't even realize or remember, like you had these things or what was even on them. But as you're sort of like finding these different things and tapes and CDs and throwing them in and listening, I mean, it had to have been also just on a personal level, a really interesting just sort of like walk back through time for you.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, some of the stuff was like cassettes of rehearsals from the 80s and, you know, just really old, old stuff. And it did sort of force me to reflect on, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years now and even longer than that, maybe 35. And that is a long time. And I think in a way it just sort of made me take stock and just be so grateful for being able to have made my life in music and, you know, being able to have had this incredible experience. And there's not a lot that you can hold with your hand because most, you know, if you're a live performer, most of what you do is totally ephemeral. It disappears as soon as it's done. You know, you had to be there on that night to experience it. Otherwise it's gone. So much of what I've done in my life as a musician and as an artist, it's disappeared. So it was great to have these little time capsules of these recordings to go back and listen and be like, Oh wow, that song,

I forgot that I even ever did that. And Oh wow, this, you know, this time of, of my life. And I was working on this thing and my voice sounded like it did back then. And, and it was just, it was, you know, I sort of equate it to you're looking back through your high school yearbook or something. And, and at the time you thought that you were so awkward and you were ugly and you hated your hair and your skin was bad and whatever. And you just thought you were, you know, this awful, you know, person. And then you look back and you're like, oh my God, I was so cute. You know, why, why did I think that about myself? You know, oh, you know, I was just, how sweet, you know? So in a way it's kind of like that. I'm looking back on all these different times,

you know, and just thinking, oh wow, there's something really, really beautiful about them. Yeah. I know some of what was in there also. I mean, these are a lot of live recordings and radio stations and stuff like that. And some of it was demo tapes also. Yeah. There's one track on there, which is, I think it was a demo originally of Dream a Little Dream. Yeah. Which I guess you used to sing to your daughter when she was like a little kid.

And you have this beautiful demo of it that ends up on there, which it just, I mean, it just lands in the heart so immediately. Oh, it's such a great song. Yeah. I did used to sing that song to my daughter as she was falling asleep at night. And, you know, for a second I was like, oh, maybe I should make a record of lullabies. And, and so I recorded this just as like a step towards that. And then I just got too busy doing other stuff and being on the road and being a mom and everything. And that idea just kind of got shelved. You know, maybe someday I'll do it. But this is sort of the little remnant of that idea.

Yeah. How much did you discover that you had no recollection of ever having even done? You know, the very early stuff, I'm like, oh my God, is that me? Oh, wow, what is that? Yeah, so some of it is a little bit like, whoa, it says it's me on the cassette, so I guess it must be.

But most of it, I, you know, I'm not like a drug casualty or anything. So I do remember much of it, so it's okay. Yeah, there's another really interesting choice that you made. I'm not like a drug casualty or anything. So I do remember much of it. So it's okay. Yeah. There's another really interesting choice that you made. So St. Teresa kicks off Relish in 95, that album, and again makes another appearance kicking off this album,

you know, like a decade and a half or so later. Tell me why. Tell me what was going on there. You, you know, I, I think I didn't realize that. I think I had forgotten that Relish started out with St. Teresa too. And, you know, when we were deciding what order to put these songs in, I don't know, it just felt like a right, the right thing to start with. And I, I guess I didn't, you know, I guess it must be one of those songs that you want to open a record with. But I do remember feeling in the studio that day in the radio station that myself and the band were, you know, we really had gotten to that place because we had played the song live so much at that point that we had sort of become that group mind thing where, you know, you start the song and, you know, you just sort of like, you're all together and, you know, each one of you ceases to be an individual and you become

this unit. So I remember feeling very much that that was what was happening on that day in the studio in LA. And I really, I think that's a good reason to put it first too, because it's kind of this, you know, when you record a song in the studio for your studio album, that can be a great way to record it. But then there's also this other place that the song gets to after playing it so many times with the band, that is another really beautiful way to express it. And so I think that I was really feeling that on that day in the radio station. Yeah. I wonder sometimes when, you know,

it's almost like the band collectively enters this flow state. And when the band is playing in that state, whether there's something about the energy of that that gets transmitted through the song where other people gain access to that same state. You can't describe it. You can't say like this is what was going on. But I almost wonder if there's something about it that is felt through transmission. No, I totally think that that's true.

And I think most bands that play live will say that they've had those experiences. It's almost like a transcendental experience where, you know, you understand that you're on the stage, but you and the band and the audience feel like you're just one entity. I definitely, definitely have experienced that many times. Yeah. I think Emile Durkheim described it as, I love his term, collective effervescence. Oh, yeah. You're just, isn't it beautiful? Like it just like it sums up so much. So as we have this conversation, you're back out on the road. So you were basically grounded for a couple of years, like so many other people. And then all of a sudden you're back out on the road, you know,

like you're with the band, you're touring again. It's got to feel so good. Oh, it does. And, you know, there's something about having come through this time when, you know, people experienced a lot of loss and, you know, everybody was isolated from each other. I think there's such this pent up need, not only from the audience members, but from us as performers, as musicians, there's this need to have this experience. So when we do do these performances and we, when we are able to have a show, it's really moving and it's really kind of explosive because I think everyone's bringing this experience of the last two years with them and wanting it to, you know, wanting it to be exploded somehow by the music and wanting to regain that sense of that, you know, communal moment and that effervescence, like you say. Yeah, love that. You're also touring, from what I understand, with a smaller band,

with like a three-piece, which is interesting because it's almost like you're inviting the audience even more so to be a part of, the creative product, to be a part of like, we're singing together, we're in this together, you know, it's, it's intimate. And it's almost like we're all wrapped around each other to a certain extent. Well, it is. And you know, these two musicians that I'm working with, it's Keith Cotton, who plays keyboards and Jack Petruzzelli, who plays guitar. And I play a little bit of guitar and percussion as well. And, you know, we're able to find these unique arrangements of the songs that bring out these other shades of meaning and that it is a very intimate experience with the audience because, you know, if you have like a big band and a drummer and it's very loud and whatever, then, I mean, that's one kind of

thing, which is great. But if you are doing it in a more acoustic way, then the voice tends to have more space to open up and the meaning of the lyrics tends to have more space to unfold. And I do think it's a great way to go about it. And I think we all need that more than ever right now, which feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life, to have meaningful work and to have people that you love close to you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation that we had with Liz Fair about her life in music. You'll find a link to Liz's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so,

go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Results will vary.