Good Life Project - Joanne Lee Molinaro | The Korean Vegan

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

Joanne Molinaro was deep into her career as a full-time attorney when she started blogging as The Korean Vegan, a nod to both her heritage and her curiosity about reimagining the cuisine she grew up on. She soon after launched a TikTok account that exploded and, along with her other platforms, boasts over 3.5 million fans. She’s appeared on The Food Network and Al Jazeera English, been featured in the Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, NPR, and CNN, and has just released her debut cookbook + memoir, The Korean Vegan Cookbook.A Korean American woman, born in Chicago, Joanne’s parents were both born in what is now known as North Korea. Their harrowing journey to the states led them to settle in Chicago. From her earliest days, she was deeply aware of inequity and felt an empathic call to advocacy, along with the impulse to help guide people through a process of change. That led her into the law, which remained her central devotion, literally, until the day before we recorded this conversation. Her TikTok (@thekoreanvegan), was started largely as a coping mechanism for the isolation caused by the global pandemic. She began posting content related to politics and life as a lawyer during quarantine. However, after a single post of her making Korean braised potatoes for dinner (while her husband taught a piano lesson in the background) went viral, Joanne shifted her attention to producing 60-second recipe videos while telling stories about her life, family, and the state of the world. She discovered an entirely new channel for advocacy and artistry in this most unusual place, one that both allows millions of people to see themselves in the stories, cultures, and yes, food, of others, and also serves as a powerful mechanism to advocate for inclusivity and change.You can find Joanne at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with MILCK about creativity, music, carving your own path and representation.My new book Sparked-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today, Joanne Molinaro, she was deep into her career as a full-time attorney when she started blogging as The Korean Vegan, a nod to both her heritage and her curiosity about reimagining the cuisine she grew up on. She soon after launched a TikTok account that has exploded and along with her other platforms, boasts over three and a half million fans. She's appeared on the Food Network, Al Jazeera Englishman, featured in the LA Times, Washington Post, The Atlantic, NPR, and CNN, and has just released her debut cookbook and memoir, The Korean Vegan Cookbook, which is stunningly beautiful, by the way. So a Korean American woman born in Chicago,

Joanne's parents were both born in what is now known as North Korea. Their harrowing journey to the States led them to eventually settle in Chicago. And from her earliest days, she was deeply aware of a sense of inequity and felt this empathic call to advocacy, along with the impulse to help people through a process of change. And that led her into the practice of law, which remained essential devotion literally until the day before we recorded this conversation. Her TikTok, the Korean vegan, was started largely as a coping mechanism for the isolation caused by the pandemic. And she began posting content related to politics and life as a lawyer and just family during quarantine. However, after a single post of her making Korean

braised potatoes for dinner while her husband taught a piano lesson in the background went viral, Joanne shifted her attention to producing these 60 second on the surface recipe videos while telling stories about her life and family and the state of the world. And she discovered an entirely new channel for advocacy and artistry in this most unusual place, one that both allows millions of people to see themselves in the stories and cultures and experiences and yes, food of others, and also serves as a powerful mechanism to advocate for inclusivity and change. The day that we talked was actually the day after she resigned her position from the law and became what she called a full-time creator. And we talk about that transition as well.

So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I time and actual results will vary. Let's dive in a little bit. So there's so many different things i want to explore with you and by the way your book is ridiculously gorgeous oh thank you jonathan i appreciate that oh my god i'm flipping through the pages and i'm just like i want to reach through the pictures because they're so luscious and vivid and just like touch and feel and like i'm like trying to get the aroma of the dishes from the book somehow it wasn't't working for me. We're going to get there one day. Right. Somebody needs to come out with a gorgeous scratch and sniff cookbook. Oh my God. Well, I think maybe you're the maker. I think that's something you need to get on. That is the thing to do. Let's take a little bit of a step back in time. Growing up in Chicago, Korean family, and you

write about and you talk about when people ask you sort of like where your family is from, there's this association, especially in the US with North Korea and South Korea. And the association with North is not necessarily good. And the association with South is very different. And your family actually comes from North Korea, but it was something that as a kid was not a part of sort of like the public story that you were comfortable telling. Yeah, I wasn't. And I think it was because like you said, I had this idea in my head that North is bad, South is good. And I think that's an understandable idea about the division in that peninsula, given, you know, what information, what little information we have about what's currently happening in North Korea. But I think the issue there is that the thing that was so strange in retrospect is why would you be ashamed

of where your parents were born? Like, it's not like they could control where they were born. And my parents are as unsympathetic as they come when it comes to the current regime and what's happening in their homeland, right? So it's very strange and kind of illogical. But at the same time, there was so much rhetoric in the media about how North Korea was part of the axis of evil and was the butt of a lot of jokes and movies and things like that. And I felt a little bit like, I don't want to be associated with that. I don't want my name to be attached to the axis of evil. But of course, what that did was it reduced my heritage, reduced my family's origin story to the same things that I was seeing on the news and in, you know, modern media, which was,

oh, it's just this one dimensional thing, which it obviously wasn't. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious within the family, when you were growing up as a kid, were there conversations? Was it, was there an openness about the family history or was it something that kind of wasn't talked about? So I think what it was is my parents just kind of took it for granted. Like for them, there, there is no, like in their minds, like North and South Korea is something that's really a product of today. It's not about who they are or where they came

from. Because again, to them, they're like, well, we had no control over where we were born or where our parents were living at the time that we were born, right? And also North Korea, I mean, my mother, when she was born, like it barely just existed, right? The boundary had just been drawn a few years before. And when my father was born, there was no boundary, right? It was just a few months later that it was kind of hurriedly drawn, almost arbitrarily drawn by, you know, the close of World War II. So for them, it was just a part of their story. Were they open about their story? To the extent that they saw any interest by their American children. Sure, they were willing to share it. But, you know, looking back, I'm very ashamed to say this.

I took so much of my life and my identity for granted that I really wasn't interested in my parents' history. I was like, you, you know, we're gonna hear this story again. Like, I don't want to hear it, you know, and it was very sort of bratty. And it wasn't until much later when I finally opened my heart to the possibility that my parents were humans and deserved a right to be seen as such that I really started to dig into their stories. Was there, I'm curious when, because, you know, I think hopefully we all come to a point where like that switch gets flipped and we're like, oh, they're not just the people who put us on the planet and are there to take care of us and make us feel safe, but they've got their own lives and concerns and human, all this stuff. I'm curious for you,

was there something that happened that sort of like flipped that switch for you? I think that it's not a switch so much as it's been sort of an evolving process of, you know, kind of like a revelation, right? Sometimes revelation happens with a lightning bolt where all of a sudden the you know there's a massive amount of light and so much of the stuff that was hidden in darkness is revealed and sometimes it's more like an onion you're peeling back layer after layer until you know uh what you see at the end of the peeling is wildly different from what you started out with, right? But, you know, from peel to peel to peel, you may not notice how much is actually being revealed, right? And I think it's more of the latter with my parents. I think there are so many different

moments throughout my life. I think mostly starting in college, you know, perhaps the first peel was when my grandmother passed away and my father's grief sort of, it, it hurt me and opened me and it made me vulnerable because I saw my father in a moment where he was so intensely vulnerable. Perhaps that was like the first moment, but since then, it's been a continual peeling of those layers all the way right up until now, where as a middle-aged person, you know, I'm 42 and my parents are now well-situated in senior citizenship, I'm starting to worry for their health, you know, and how much time do I have left with them. And that continues to poke at me and remind me of how much beauty is in their humanity that I have yet to really understand. Yeah, that's it's such an interesting sort of awakening. I think when, when we start to see that, and like you, I think, for a lot of us, it's not a single moment, it's just there there's this gradual unfolding. I think as we become further into life and more independent and also more self-aware

and maybe other aware also, you're kind of like, oh, the people around me are human beings with their own things going on. And I guess, you know, once we're in the middle of our lives too, and our folks are a little bit older, then, you know, the awareness of the fact that maybe we're all in sort of like the second season brings that home. It sounds like also for you, the family table was always something that was kind of sacred. It was, it was sort of a mandatory, you know, sacredness, if you will. Like I, I always thought it was so strange that my parents were so strict about that because again,

you know, so much of my life was like television, you know, although my parents were so strict about that because again, you know, so much of my life was like television, you know, although my parents were really strict about TV too, where I was only allowed to watch an hour a day, but it was like family ties and, you know, growing pains. Those were the television shows that I thought, well, this is how normal people, you know, do it. Normal people aren't forced to eat dinner at the dinner table. They, you know, slide in, oh, grab whatever food they can get, have some conversation and move on with their days. But for us, you know, they were very strict about it. And I remember sometimes I would, you know, bring a book with me to read or I'd have my little game boy or something like that. And my parents were like, nope, you can't do that. You know, dinner time is for eating. We all sit down at the table and we

eat. And of course, the weird thing about it was our dinner table was very quiet. We didn't talk. Like there was no conversation really happening. We were just very focused on eating and doing our own thing, you know, kind of lost in our own thought. And yet, you know, if I ever said, no, I don't want to eat right now, or I'm talking on the phone with my friend or, you know, God forbid saying I'm watching a TV show. There was never an excuse to miss the dinner table. Well, I mean, what was that about? Because if it wasn't about let's gather around, tell me about your day and all of this stuff, what was the reverence or what was the sacred nature of like this always has to happen and we always have to be here and there can't be distraction? What was underneath that?

You know, I've never asked my mom that actually. I've never asked my mom. And my mom was really the one who was kind of laying down that law. But I think that there's sort of this ingrained reverence for food, for sustenance, for eating. Both my parents and certainly my grandmothers, who often were the ones who were putting together these delicious dinner tables for us, they had grown so acquainted with scarcity and starvation. I mean, they had witnessed it to the point of near death for so much of their lives. I think the notion of saying, I'm going to skip dinner was completely

ridiculous. I mean, absurd and offensive to them. And so I think that instinct is likely what drove even my parents to say, no, you are going to eat and you're going to eat with all of us. Because it was sort of a reaffirmation of survival every single day. And I think that is so fundamental to the immigrant story and in particular to my parents' story. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. Tell me more about their story. What, how does the family actually end up in Chicago? What's, what's that journey? Yeah. You know, it's so funny that you ask, cause I'm still trying to like pin down dates and things like that. I'm like, so when did you get here? So my parents, as you alluded to at the very beginning, both of them were born in the region that's now known as North Korea. And again, you know, not because they were empathizers of the current regime or anything like that.

That's just where they happen to live at the time that they were born, right? And when they were babies, both of them, when they were babies, their parents had the foresight to say, hey, we got to get out of here. And so, you know, on my mother's side, they evacuated their village and they got on a U.S. naval ship and they managed to get to this, you know, southern fringe of the southern peninsula, southern half of the peninsula, which is where they were refugees for a good chunk of my mother's childhood. My father, similarly, his mother basically walked through the mountains across the 38th parallel and towards Seoul, which is where her husband's family was waiting for them. And that's where my father grew up as well, a village near Seoul. And I think in the 70s, my mother was given an opportunity. She had obtained her nursing degree in Korea, in South Korea.

And she was given an opportunity to study in the United States and perhaps obtain a visa through nursing. And she, you know, kind of jumped on that opportunity, came to Chicago because she wanted to work at Cook County Hospital and ultimately passed her boards and got licensed to pave the way to bring my father to the United States on the basis of her immigrant status. And that's how we all ended up here now in Chicago. That's a very glossed over sort of story. There's so many points along that journey that was fraught and scary. And I don't know if it's going to happen, you know, all of those moments, but that is the general arc of how we ended up here. Yeah. I mean, that's incredible. You know, one of the things when

I hear that, and clearly there's a lot underneath that, a lot of times that type of experience, that journey that involves a lot of trauma, which can become generational trauma. And I'm wondering whether you feel like that exists within the family. Absolutely. I think it exists a lot with my father. And I think my father evinces the scars and the injuries that he endured since he was a little boy. His story, which he shared with me in 2019, right before we went to Korea, because I asked him to, we were as a family, we were going to Korea and it was the first time in over two decades

that I had agreed to go with them. But this time I wanted to do it with intention. And so I asked my mom and my dad, tell me your life story. I wanna know everything that I used to do it with intention. And so I asked my mom and my dad, you know, tell me your life story. I want to know everything that I used to think was boring. So tell it to me now. Because when I visit Korea, I want to understand what I'm seeing, like through your eyes. And so my father generously wrote his life story in like a single spaced word doc that he shared with me. And reading it was hard for me because it again forced me to view my dad as a human being, which as children, I think we don't want to do that because it's scary because it makes them vulnerable and

susceptible to all of the things that we know we are vulnerable and susceptible to. But we want to view our parents as impervious to those things because they are protectors, right? And this story that he shared with me kind of put him in a situation that was intensely vulnerable because he was talking to me about the things that he went through when he was a little boy and how, you know, for example, they were always like, you know, I always say this, a rice kernel away from starvation. He used to tell me that at the beginning of the day, his father would count out the number of beans that he was allowed for that day. That's what he would get to eat. These are the beans that you're allowed to eat that day. And hearing that, I'm like getting emotional. Seeing my father now, he lives in a beautiful home in one of the wealthiest, you know, North Shore suburbs in Chicago. And, you

know, we get to travel. He's going to come with me on my book tour, all of these things. But knowing that this man who's sitting comfortably in his lounge chair in his family room is also the little boy that had to count the number of beans in the palm of his hand and know that this is all he gets to eat that day. Of course, that's going to injure him. And that's going to injure him for many, many, many, many years. And that will also impact how he raises his children. And that will also have this kind of reverberating effect on me and my brother. Yeah. I mean, how could it not? So

powerful. It also really gives another layer to the family table. It gives another layer to why you would sit and have reverence for this food. I mean, if your dad was literally as a child counting out the number of beans or his father that they could eat per day, it's just a whole different lens on the value of it. Food as sustenance then, food as security, food as safety, food as we're okay, becomes like a part of the family culture, it sounds like. What about beyond that? Food as delight, food as joy, food as creativity? You know, I think that that part of the story is perhaps my, you know, that's my job, you know, because I have been given safety. Like from the minute I was born, I've always been safe. I've never had to worry about where is our next meal coming from?

I've never had to count out the number of beans in my hand. I've always had as much food as I've wanted and good food, not barely able to pull things together food. My grandmother, she practically put together a farm from scratch in our backyard. So we always had beautiful produce on our dinner table, healthy, nutritious, you know, really intentional, deliberate meals. And I kind of took that for granted. I don't think my parents, quite frankly, had the luxury of thinking about making joyful food. They just had to think about all the time, like, okay, we just, we need to make sure that our children are fed, that they are strong, that they can, you know, go to school and be successful. And so for me, I feel very lucky that I am in a position to show them how much joy can be injected into the meals that they have in many

ways curated through the experiences that they've given to me. And seeing how much fellowship and community that has developed around food for me personally is, I hope, something that they understand, like that they can see that, that, hey, through the food that I grew up eating because of the two of you, I am now able to bring joy into people's lives. And so indirectly, you all have done that as well. That is a beautiful sort of full circle thing. And I want to actually dive a lot more into that. But before we get there, there's a middle part of the story.

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Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. You end up going to school and then you end up going to law school and then you are practicing law, which to my understanding to this day is still sort of like the full time thing. Tell me more about what brings you into that.

So this is actually one of the reasons I'm so excited to talk with you like today um yesterday was actually my last and final day as a full-time attorney yeah i would say i was so excited um because you know i've been reading through sparked and it was just really so eye-opening in ways that i didn't expect and it's so ironic because my spark type, it's like advisor advocate. And I'm like, oh, should I have left my job? But, you know, obviously the joy, you know, that's sort of revealed and sparked is that, you know, you don't have to fit this sort of like typical mold of what it means to be an advisor advocate. There are ways to do that. And maybe, you know, methods that you didn't think about before, but, um, I've actually going to continue working at the firm just in an of counsel capacity, which really allows me to shape my career with more control basically. So if I want to pursue a case or if I want to represent a client

or get involved in a case, I certainly have the ability to do so. And I also have the backing of an incredible law firm. But if I want to focus my advocacy through the Korean Vegan and the platform that I've developed there, then I can do that as much or as little as I want, again, knowing that I have a firm who supports me. So it's really the best of both worlds. And I'm incredibly grateful. But today is the first day where I am going to be, you know, doing that. And it's, it's like, beyond surreal and exciting and liberating and empowering. That is amazing. Well, I'm glad that I can celebrate that with you. You're like the perfect person to celebrate that.

I was thinking I'm like, I've actually had that first day also, you know, that that was a part of I mean, you've stayed in the profession way longer than I did. I was in about five years. But left for, I mean, completely different things, but not dissimilar reasons. Although what's interesting for me is I've been reflecting recently on sort of like that question, had I known then what I know now about the ability to sort of craft and reimagine something and really understand what is the impulse underneath that, do I think I would have potentially stayed or found a way to stay in the practice? And I actually think that there's a much better chance that I would have been in it for a much longer time.

I think eventually I would have woven my way out of it, but I would have, instead of just saying the whole field isn't right for me, I would have said, huh, you know, there's parts of it that actually really work and parts of it that don't. And the parts of it that don't are more about the choices that I made about the way that I stepped into it. And I think I probably would have spent a lot more time re-imagining how I could practice in a way that would make me feel the way I want

to feel. But eventually I think I would have found my way out too. But what was the thing that brought you into it though? Was it a combination of expectations? Was it a genuine curiosity or interest in the field? I think that when other people have asked me this question, I've given sort of the funny, slightly irreverent answer, which is it was basically by accident and panic. I graduated early from college, about a year early, and it's all of a sudden dawned on me the semester before graduation, oh my God, I need to be an adult in like a couple months. And I have no idea what I want to do with my life. This is like, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? And so I graduated, I got a job as a resume writer because I was like the only job that I could find. I was an English major.

And so I was like, all right, well, let me just do this for a little bit and hopefully a path will reveal itself to me. And, you know, of all the jobs to do when you don't know what you want to do with your future, resume writer is pretty darn good one. I was basically developing CVs for a bunch of other people and getting to see, well, what do they do with their careers? And I came upon the file of a lawyer and I had to write her resume. And I remember thinking, I think this sounds okay. I could do this, I guess, better than being, you know, a business person because I hate selling things. And I can't be a doctor because I faint at the sight of blood. So I guess I just will be a lawyer. And, you know, I took my LSATs. I applied to a couple of law schools,

like literally within a few months. Like it all happened very quickly because once I make a decision, I execute that decision as efficiently as I can. And I decided, so I did that. I got into both of the law schools that I applied to and I ended up in law school and got a job. So that's sort of the tongue in cheek explanation, but I was listening. I read your book through audible. So I was listening to your book this morning. And as I mentioned, I'm an advisor advocate sparkotype, so i was listening to your book this morning and as i mentioned i'm an advisor advocate sparkotype and i was listening to the advocate chapter and like it really caused me to reflect upon sort of the advocacy instinct in me and i remember like it made me think of this time when i was like i think nine or ten years old and I saw a kid getting bullied in the playground and nobody would say anything. And I was like, this is unacceptable to me. And I remember I like rode

my bike right up in between them. I was like, you can't do this. Stop, leave him alone. And that instinct in me has been around since I can remember. And so I think that however much I like to describe it as an accident, I think unconsciously there was a part of me that knew that speaking for people when they feel they didn't have the capacity to maximize their voice in a way that was most effective was something that I naturally tended to do anyway. Yeah. I mean, it does seem like a through line in everything that you do to this day. I mean, if you look at your, I think it's your bio on Instagram or TikTok, I can't remember which it is, you know, you will sometimes post something about a social issue and take a very strong stance. And I've seen you write, you know, like, hey, listen, if you have an issue with this and you think like, and you're about to like write a comment that says, hey, can you just stick to food? Go look at my bio, which then says, no, I'm an advocate on behalf of BLM and, you know, LGBTQ plus and all these. So it seems like for you, it's not a,

oh yes, and this too. It's like, no, this has always been central to who you are in a lot of different ways. I think that one of the great things, again, sorry, I don't want to make this podcast about your book. One of the great things about your book is that, like you said, it made me feel seen in an incredibly powerful way. And one of the great things about being seen is that it also allows you to look at yourself. Like, I think that there is some discomfort of looking at yourself like, oh, I can't look at myself in the mirror too long because then people will think I'm an egomaniac or, you know, that I'm self-centered or, you know, that I think too much about myself,

right? But I think that one of the great things that I took away from that was, you know what? I am an advocate. I have been like my whole life. And, you know, I never really thought about that. And it does make me feel alive in a way that I maybe never allowed to fully realize and actualize. And so when I think about my social media presence now and its objective and what I do, it has empowered me to really step into that role and say, you know what?

This is what I've wanted to do my whole life. It's not even what I've wanted to do. It's just what I'm built to do, if anything. So let's embrace it. Let's go full-born into it instead of stepping around it and tiptoeing around it and being like, oh no, I'm a food blogger. I make recipes. And then, like you said, do this on the side. It's actually not that at all. This is who I am. Advocacy is so much a part of what I do just naturally. Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense and it flows through even the way that you approach food. It's not just sort of like, here's a recipe. There's always something bigger wrapped around it. There's culture,

there's history, there's tradition, there are issues. The way that you've stepped into this space. And I don't know if it was, I haven't gone all the way back and looked at like your first five posts or whatever it was. But I would imagine this has always been a part of just who you are and how you stepped into it. Yeah. So I would say for sure, like it's kind of like a thread, like it's like, it's like DNA. It's like, I can't like separate myself from it. But I think that sometimes it's very easy for people to feel like they have to fit into a certain mold. And I certainly felt that way when I first started the Korean Vegan was, well, everybody else is doing it this way. So I guess I'll just do what everybody else is doing. I'll just post recipes and I'll post really pretty pictures of the food that I make

and it'll be vegan. You know, like those are the three components of the Korean vegan very early on. And I think though, sort of the lesson or the takeaway is that if you're naturally a certain way, or if you're built a certain way, or if these are the things that bring you to life, they'll eventually figure out how to surface, whether you want it to or not. And when in 2017, I felt like this country that I live in was being torn apart by division and a complete, what I viewed as misunderstanding of the immigrant story, I felt like I have to do something. Like, I don't know, like what, like I have to do something. Like, I don't know, like what, what, like I have to do something. I can't just sit here and allow this complete misunderstanding of what it means to be

an immigrant in the United States. I can't allow that narrative to speak that story so that people would hear it. And I was like, well, I have this Instagram, you know, with 10,000 followers. Maybe if I instead of putting a recipe beneath one of these very enticing looking photos, I draw them in with the food and then hopefully they'll stick around for the story about my mom and dad. And that was sort of my kind of inarticulate way of advocating on this issue that was so central to me. Yeah. You know, as you're describing sort of like your inner process of kind of navigating those early days, especially it lands as being really similar, which I didn't even piece it together to on what Brandon Stanton did with Humans of New York, where he was out

there just taking pictures of New Yorkers and posting them for a while and getting some traction. But it was when he sort of said, here's a picture of just like an ordinary human being from the streets of New York. Oh, and here's a story. Let me introduce you to their humanity. Let me tell you a little bit about what's going on beyond the picture. That's when all of a sudden everybody leaned forward and said, ooh, more. You know, because it just brings us so much into each other's stories. And I think we're yearning for that so much these days. I think we're yearning for that so much these days. I think we are. I think,

well, certainly now with, you know, the isolation that's been forced upon us by the pandemic, we're kind of grappling for new ways of connecting with each other, you know, and I think these new ways, like you said, I think as, as kind of you've experienced with the new, you know, virtual realm of podcasting, there are, you know, opportunities that come out of that that perhaps you wouldn't have foreseen. And I think that these new ways of connecting for me, you know, through social media, through TikTok and through YouTube and, you know, Instagram, I never foresaw that a community would sort of spring literally out of the virtual ground and around me by virtue of these stories and, you know, my sharing. But I think you're right.

I think that we're always looking for some reassurance that we are not alone in our pain, that our pain isn't in vain, that it isn't meaningless, that there's some purpose behind our struggle. And I think that, you know, for all that people say about the internet and social media and all of those things, one of the beautiful things about the internet and about social media is that if you want that reassurance is out there, if it's done with intention and it's done with compassion, it is there for you. And that community can really provide immense healing. I love that.

There's something else that you do that sort of building on that, that I'm fascinated by, which is, you know, you will, you'll post a video with sort of like a closeup shot of, you know, of you making a dish and you'll, I don't know whether you literally put the mic right next to the dish where it's sort of like you hear the sound of it. So there's a lusciousness, there's a, you know, like it's vivid, it's passion. It's sort of coming through in a multimedia way. And then you're telling a story about your mom or about something, which is just like this, you know, a story about one human being and a moment in their lives. And there's something, and I'm curious whether this is intentional. You will be cooking a dish that for a lot of people is completely foreign to them, you

know, but at the same time, you're telling a story that is profoundly relatable. And it feels like there's almost this bridge. It's sort of like by sharing this food, which is, you know, like, it seems like incredible, but it's really like it is, you don't identify it for a lot of people as like, oh, this is my culture. But then you're hearing a story along with it where you're like, oh, this is everybody. This is me. It tethers everything together. It's like, it, it feels like behind it, there's an intentionality to remove barriers. And I'm curious whether I'm just overlaying that from the outside in, or whether that's actually part of what you're sort of really working on doing. That's exactly what I'm working on doing. And it's like chilling to me. Like I'm getting like, you know, goosebumps all over to know that, you know, somebody has really seen it in that way. Because the most joyful moments for me

are when, you know, somebody sends me a message and says, you know, I'm a white woman in Alabama, been born and raised in America. My whole family's been here for four generations. I eat fried chicken. I'm not vegan. I'm in law enforcement. I know nothing about your experiences. But oh my God, the things that you say about your struggle with body image or your struggle with food is so profoundly relatable to me. I feel like we could be sisters. Like that is exactly what I'm trying to do, which is create that bridge and also to challenge people. Like, okay, so you've never seen gochugaru before. You've never heard of tteokbokki or you don't know what I'm making, but gee, doesn't it look pretty good? And while you're watching me make this food,

hopefully you can find some point of connection that opens your heart to not just the food, but the people and the experiences underneath that food. Because at bottom, we all need to eat and we all experience loss and grief. And through those two points of sort of universal experience and hunger, perhaps we can find some way to meet in the middle. Yeah, well, it's working. I mean, what's amazing is that to me, you know, in what is, you know, zooming the lens out and astonishingly short period of time, you've built such a vast global community around this, because especially knowing that what's really sort of happening under the surface, you know, it speaks to the artistry, it speaks to the storytelling, but it also,

it speaks, I think in no small part to the pervasive yearning that exists underneath that. Yeah. No, I think that that pervasive yearning is actually really beautiful. I mean, it's something that should continue to be cultivated because without it, without that sort of curiosity, without that willingness to be vulnerable and open to new experiences and to other people's pain, we become a world that's devoid of compassion. And ultimately, I feel like kindness, compassion, those are like the most important things in the world because they lead to empowerment and joy

and fulfillment and meaning. Those are things that, you know, building blocks of life, right? And so to me, encouraging that yearning and sort of positively reinforcing that by filling that hunger and with food and with good conversation, with stories and with compassion. I feel like that's really what I want to continue doing. I mean, that's why I was like, all right, I'm going to leave the practice of law, you know, full time. And I'm going to try and pursue the Korean vegan with the hope that I can fill as many cups as I can.

Hmm. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So beyond sort of the underlying vision and mission and subtext and sort of like the humanity focused mission behind your work. There's also a little

bit of rebel. Well, maybe a lot of rebel. It actually, a little bit is definitely a misnomer. There's a lot of, okay, so we're going to break a lot of rules type of thing, right? Because when you were growing up, the food that was cooked for you, as much as you say it came from this gorgeous garden out back and it was fresh and amazing, was very traditional. But a lot of what you're doing, you're breaking a lot of rules. I mean, the name, when you talk about Korean vegan food, the backstory behind what made you start to say, huh, I'm going to try this out is kind of funny. It is. I think that you're right. Like, it's funny because people are like, oh my God, Joanne, you're like the nicest person ever. You make me feel safe. And, you know, you make me feel like I can just tell you anything. People, a lot of people call me auntie or auntie, you know,

that's sort of my persona on the internet. Right. And I'm like, Oh, if only you knew sometimes I am not nice. I am, you know, like you said, very vocal about my opinions and my opinions aren't always, you know, what everybody else thinks. But that's actually another reason, you know, it's so funny that I ultimately became a lawyer. My mom used to tell me, you're so rebellious. You're so disobedient. You should just be a lawyer. Because she's like, you never listen to anything I say. You always argue with me. And I think that, you know, for better or worse, one of the things that my mother taught me was that I got to find my own path. I have to believe in what I'm doing and do it. I cannot simply just follow what everybody else is doing blindly without doing the work and the due diligence necessary to know that whatever

vision or value that they are serving is consistent with my own. So if I feel that what everybody else is doing is not consistent with my value set, then I won't do it. I will find a different way, you know, to make sure that I'm not compromising what I think is right. One of the things that a girlfriend of mine in high school once said about me and my writing, you know, was that Joanne's characters are always trying to do the right thing. And that is very central to my life is always trying to do the right thing. Now, the funny story that precipitates me adopting a plant-based diet is of course, I thought it was the wrong thing. I really thought it was the wrong thing. I was, you know, a paleo at the time. And I thought that the healthy way of eating was avoiding carbohydrates

and eating as much animal protein as possible, right? And ultimately, through a lot of research that was kind of foisted upon me by my then boyfriend, now husband, who was a real proponent of the plant based diet, I concluded, okay, well, maybe I was wrong. Maybe my notions of what is healthy and nutritious and what is going to fuel me in a way that ensures longevity requires re-evaluation. And ultimately through that process, I was acquainted with what eating animal products did to the environment and to the climate. And that had an enormous impact upon me because then it was no longer just about my body. It was about the bodies of every living thing on this planet. And I couldn't ignore that. And so, you know, with all of this

information and with a boyfriend who was constantly being like, you should go vegan, you should go vegan. Come on. I was like, fine, I'll just, I'll try it. You know, like what's the worst that can happen? You know, it's not going to kill me. So I tried it and it was really easy. It was really, really easy. I think the hardest thing about it though, is what you alluded to Jonathan, which is that my family couldn't understand it. And I was very worried that me electing to eat in a way that was at that time largely viewed as not a Korean way of eating would somehow separate me from my culture and my identity. Yeah. I mean, and that's big. It's funny. I remember there's this gorgeous show, Chef's Table. Oh, I love that show.

Oh, so good. And I remember they featured this one chef, mostly I'm blanking on his last name, who has like one of the top restaurants in Modena, Italy. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, with the Parmesan cheese. Right. And it's like ultra progressive.

And he completely reimagined. But the culture, everyone is like, you are bastardizing everything. Everything that we believe in, our culture, our history, everything, you're tearing it apart. You are a pariah in the world of Italian food and what it is about and what it's supposed to be about. And it took a long time for a lot of people to come around. And to this day, a lot of people are still like, look at what he does. It's like absolutely almost illegal. Like it shouldn't be okay. So there's, when you start to mess with the fundamentals of a cuisine, it's almost like

you're messing with the fundamentals of a culture and it can create a lot of friction. It certainly can. And that is an ever evolving conversation. And my thinking on that continues to evolve as a participant in that conversation as sort of a responsible participant in that conversation, because I straddle a line, right? That, you know, isn't necessarily straddled by everyone, right? I am an advocate for animals. I'm an advocate for the planet. And I really, truly believe in my heart that a plant-centric diet is fundamental to being an advocate for those things, right?

But on the other hand, I'm also an advocate for people of color. I'm an advocate for immigrants. I'm an advocate for staying true to your cultural roots, to your heritage. And I do believe in the value of traditions. So these are things that sometimes can exist together very beautifully, but in other times, maybe might be at odds with each other. So I'm trying to do things in a way that's as sensitive to all of those interests as possible. And like I said, it's an ever evolving conversation because you're totally right. Me being a plant based recipe developer for Korean cuisine is a reinvention, a reimagination, and to some people a complete bastardization of that cuisine. But I also try to do it in a way that respects and honors, you know, sort of the culture underneath that cuisine. You know,

I'm not sitting here like, you know, doing zero research and just being like, oh, I'm going to just call this whatever I want to call it. You know, I do try and spend as much time as I can understanding the flavors, understanding the work, understanding the stories behind all the food that I create, and then hopefully share all of that in a way that's effective and responsible. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. And also, you know, as cultures evolve is I think a lot of the origin of food is based in no small part on, well, what was available locally when all of these notions and ideas and recipes and dishes were first conceived. And as we evolve and as more is available locally, or maybe we are now in a completely different world or culture or country than so much of this where it originated from, it's sort of like, okay, so there's a lot more that's available now. So it must be such an interesting dance for you. I know part of the story from what I remember also

is a dear friend of mine, Rich Roll, plays a little bit of a role in sort of that awakening also in, I guess, your husband being exposed to his work and then that becomes part of the to his work. And then that becomes part of the conversation between you. And I think the way that Rich approaches it is really interesting also, which is, he's like, look, I am not militant about anything, but what I'll tell you is this is what I believe. This is why I believe it. And even if you don't believe it on an ethical level, or it's not a high enough part of your value set on an ethical level, there's a lot of research that shows basically the more

plants you eat, the more okay you're going to be on a personal level, on a purely selfish level in terms of wanting to be healthy and all this other stuff. So it's interesting to sort of like see how different folks are creating different lanes into both a combination of sets of beliefs and creating these containers for people to step into and explore and feel safe along the way. And I think that's one of the things that fascinates me about what you've done also is while there is this sense of novelty and there's a sense of provocation and there's a sense of, we're going to push the edge a little bit here. The way you do it always feels really safe to me.

And I can't imagine that's an easy line to dance. Safety is very important to me personally, like as a value. And I think it's something because it's so important to me that I tend to just naturally try and create safety for everyone around me. I think, you know, again, you know, speaking in proxies, right? Cause I don't want to reduce anything or suggest that there isn't nuance to all of this, but you know, as an advocate, it's really important to create, like you say, a container of safety for people. I feel like that's like what I'm always looking for is making safe spaces for people to be vulnerable and to share and to connect and to find meaning. Right. And so sometimes I am struggling because I often encounter people who don't want to make me feel safe, who feel threatened by the work that I'm doing, or who feel at odds with my view of the world and what I think is just and equitable and right. And as a result, they attack me or they attack my community. They try to make us feel

unsafe. And so I am sometimes struggling with, well, I want everyone, as many people as possible to feel safe. But then I've learned that sometimes I can't do that. I can't make everyone feel safe because by making one person feel safe, I might be endangering another. And so there has to be some sort of deliberate election of values that you decide, these are the values that I am going to safeguard for me and my community. And that means sometimes at the cost of people who do not share those same values. Yeah. I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. It's always, I think it's always fascinating because on the one hand, you want to create this safety and you want to invite people in, but there's always a line, you know, inviting people in by basically backing away from the core things that you hold sacred and dear and that you value. On the one hand, you're like, well, it would be nice if we could invite them into the conversation. They could dip their toe and maybe some eventually they'd start to see things differently. But at the

same time, if that means backing away from something that you hold so dear, yeah, that's got to be just a really interesting dance. And to do it in a way where you're couching it in the media that you create and the conversations that you create and the stories that you create. I have to imagine that your experience and your training in law actually has really informed a lot of what you're doing with the Korean vegan also. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's one of the things it's like, some of it is, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the concept of adaptive preference, but, you know, and that was one of the things that I was trying to really guard against when I was, you know, taking my sparkotype test. I was like, okay, I don't want to like come in with like preconceived notions about like who I am and, you know, what I find joy in. Like, I just want to be like a total, like blank slate and like answer these as instinctively as possible. But, you know, there's some part of me that says, well, I don't want to feel like the past 17 years of my career

have been a complete waste, right? So I've got to find some way to say, yes, that this is, you know, been accretive to my current chapters in life, right? But I do really think that, again, you know, I don't think it's a coincidence that like my sparkotypes is advisor advocate, right? Like, I think it's clearly an extrapolation of the first 17 years of my career. And I think that a couple of things that being a lawyer has taught me is, you know, number one, I'm a really good question asker. You know, after years of taking depositions, you know, interviewing witnesses, interviewing clients, and really learning to sit back, take my ego out of the equation and simply say, I need to collect as much information as possible because that is the only way I can be an effective counselor to you. I think that certainly has helped me to, again, take as much of the ego out of the process when it comes to creating an environment that's safe for people and where they feel like they can

share themselves. I want to know your story. You know, I know I'm sitting here telling you all of my stories, but part of that is fostering this feeling of, you know, disarmament. I'm disarming myself first so that you can feel like you can disarm yourself with me and I'll sit here and I'll listen and figure out how to elicit that kind of information. And then of course, you know, in telling stories, doing it in 60 seconds, it's not as easy as it looks. I thought that it would be easy. And I soon learned, i.e. a jury or a judge has certainly come in handy in creating very succinct yet effective messages in these sorts of videos. So absolutely my 17 years have not gone to waste. Yeah. I mean, it's like there's interesting parallels with, you know, a jury who's been assembled, many of whom actually don't want to be sitting there, want to leave as soon as humanly possible. And the ability to, within seconds, grab and hold their attention.

And also the split second that you have when somebody's scrolling a feed or something like that on a social platform. There's some really interesting parallels there. And more to think about, actually, sort of a lot of transferable skills. So you're building this platform, you do this incredible work, and then you have this opportunity to create, to take everything that you've been doing and turn it into a book. So the Korean Vegan book is, by the way, I mean, it says they're Korean Vegan cookbook, and for sure there are recipes and stunning images, but it's also, it's the stories that you tell. It's the narrative.

It's the history. It's the emotion. It's the, like, let's all step into this world together feel that absolutely kind of mesmerizes me as I sort of flip through the pages of this. And I'm wondering when you're thinking about how to put something together that is so, I mean, it's big, it's beautiful. And this is, a book is different than something that you post. This is something that you hope to, it's going to stand the test of time. And once it's out there, you can't change it,

you can't tweak it. When you do the imagining to try and figure out what do I want this to be and what is in and what is out? I'm curious what that process is like for you. Well, I think the first thing that I do is go back to Joanne, the reader. I'm an avid reader. I have been since I was a little girl. I read like most people eat. I mean, I consume a lot of books and I go back to what are the books that I've enjoyed the most, or even if, you know, it's not the topic of the book, but what's the experience of reading that I value. And the, the experience is one of immersion. I want to feel completely enveloped in the story that is being created around me. You know, some of my favorite memories is, you know, when I would be reading as a little

girl, I was reading, reading, reading, reading, and then I'd have to put the book down to, you know, go eat dinner with my family or, you know, do some schoolwork or whatever. And then I'd be like, what was that movie that I was watching? What was that? And I'd remember, oh no, it wasn't a movie. It was actually the book. And it was such a, you know, wonderful sort of reminder of the power of our imagination to create images in our minds, drawn largely from our own experiences, kind of grafted onto these words that we are reading. And so I wanted to really draw upon that when I was writing my book is, you know, I wanted people to be completely immersed in my little world, you know, that I was creating. And so, you know, it's hard to do that in 60 seconds. And in some ways I felt like it was way harder to do that

with an unlimited quantity of words at my disposal. I was no longer told that you got to do this in 60 seconds. I had grown very used to those parameters. So when those boundaries were removed, I was kind of like, okay, this lack of structure is a little bit intimidating. I don't know what to do with all this space. It was a very new challenge for me. And it was one that I really, really enjoyed working through. But at the same time, it's one that I'm continuing to work on. I feel like I have a lot more stories to share. And my hope is that my voice becomes stronger and more skilled as a technician when it're like, but I want to just go stop reading and go like being somebody who doesn't really cook all that much. I'm like, I need to go and try and make this. That's exactly what I want. And I cannot wait for this to be in the hands of so many people and the hearts and the bellies of so many people in the minds. Thank you.

So as we come full circle in our conversation, and we're literally having this conversation as you've made this decision yesterday to step fully into the Korean vegan and the brand, the world, the community, everything. Do you operate in a way where you think five years down the road, this is what I would love for this to look and feel like? I'm not as concrete about a five-year plan as perhaps I would be as a partner at a law firm. You know, when I was, you know, when I started at the law firm, one of the lovely things

about working in big law is that your career is pretty much laid out in front of you. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like running a race, you know, the mile markers are there and then there's a finish line, you know? And so that was kind of a very comforting thing. In many ways it was unbearably stressful, of course, you know, because if you didn't make it to that next mile marker, well, then you had to DNF and that's not a fun experience, right? But at the same time, if you felt relatively comfortable that you make it to the end of the race, then hey, everything's mapped out for you, you know? And now with the Korean vegan, there's no finish line. There are maybe some vague mile markers, but now I need to be led by intention. I need to be led by mission, vision.

These are things that are largely amorphous to a lot of people and of what is needed. And, you know, through observation, sort of understanding what people are hungry for and where healing needs to happen. So to me, I feel much more like I'm sort of being moved around, you know, where is service leading me and where can I be of most effective value? And it's hard for me based upon that to say in five years, this is where I intend to be. I think in five years, my goal right now, I say this, you know, I'm running the Chicago marathon in a couple of weeks and I'm like, my goal is just to finish. Like, I don't, it doesn't need to be a PR. It doesn't need to be fast. I just want to make it past. And, and similarly with the Korean vegan in five years, I just want to still be the Korean vegan. That would make me very, very happy. I love that. Um, so sitting

here in this container, the good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is, I think of my parents, honestly. I mean, how for Triton Bennell that sounds like I love my mom and dad so much. And when I think about living a good life, I think about doing everything that I can to show them how much I love them, how grateful I am, and to respect and honor them and hopefully do them proud. Like that's so much of what guides me is living in service to them and honoring their stories. And sort of, you know, an extrapolation of that is taking the love I have for them and channeling that to the rest of my family, whether it's my husband and my brother and my nephew, and then even beyond that to a community and to everybody, to every living person that I can possibly

reach. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Milk about creativity, music, and carving your own path and also representation. You'll find a link to Milk's episode in the show notes. And even if you don't listen now, go ahead and click to download so it's ready to play when you're on the go.

And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work we've been doing here and you'd love to learn something really interesting and important about yourself, you can check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about how you work, how your work makes you feel,

and what is possible, how to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning and purpose and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes where you can also find Spark at your favorite bookseller now. Till next time, I'm Jonathan Field signing off for Good Life Project. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs.

It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.