Good Life Project - Jocelyn Glei: Find Your Through-line and Make Your Mark

Episode Date: November 21, 2014

We spend a lot of time thinking about the legacy we're building. What is the thing that threads everything you've done together? What is the mark you're leaving on the world, both in the career or work you do and the way you live your life?These are big questions. And they're what we're exploring in this week's episode with Jocelyn Glei.From the time she was a kid, Jocelyn had been drawn to writing, publishing and entrepreneurship. In high school, she launched her first "zine," printed on copiers at her dad's office. Her interest in language deepened through college, and upon graduating she moved through a series of ventures that kept putting her in charge of bigger and bigger editorial teams and budgets. Then, in 2009, Glei hooked with Behance founder, Scott Belsky, to head up now legendary creative mega-site and the annual conference for creative pros, 99U.Along the way, she's also curated a powerful three-book series, the latest of which, Make Your Mark, releases this week, boasting extraordinary essays from creative legends like John Maeda, Warby Parker co-founder and CEO, Neil Blumenthal, SY founder, Keith Yamashita, Sugru inventor, Jane ni Dhulchaointigh and many others. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can change the way that someone thinks or you can change the way that someone acts. That's incredibly powerful. So you ever think about the through line, that common story, the common interest, the thread that kind of ties everything that you've done together? You know, very often from the time you were a little kid to almost every job you've had, all the different careers to where you are today. Well, that's one of the big things that we're exploring in today's episode. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. Jocelyn Gly got bitten by the publishing and entrepreneurial bug at a pretty young age,

starting out cutting and pasting and making her own you know easy instead of clip art she grew slowly over time found her way into a series of different startups and companies every time gaining new skills building bigger and bigger editorial processes publishing at a higher level until a couple years back around 2009 she found herself at the helm of 99u a really powerful global community for creative professionals where they offer all sorts of incredible advice to get ideas out of your head and into the world. It's culminated in a monster website and also an annual conference in New York City. Jocelyn really has this incredible through line that just keeps following her through life.

And in today's conversation, we trace not only that through line, but we really dive into a new set of books that she's behind publishing, the latest of which is all about making your mark in the world. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

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The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. In the first book in the 99 News series, one of the essays was from Linda Stone. I don't know if you know her. She coined the phrase continuous partial attention, sort of talking about how we navigate our lives these days. But one of the things that she talked about that, I don't know that it made its way um but one of the things that she talked about that i don't know that it made its way into into the final essay but that we talked about was this

you know she was kind of talking about how um even when you say check your email like people have a problem with um with breathing the same way that people have like a problem with snoring they're when they're sleeping like you're not breathing fully when you are checking your email, because you're kind of experiencing like a certain level of anxiety. And so you start to do this kind of low, like shallow breathing. And then that kind of has this ripple effect almost of, because you're doing this low, shallow breathing, it's kind of stress inducing, like type of breath. And then it kind of goes into this constant loop. And so, you know, email is one thing, but kind of this, like, notion that, like, it's almost like

she talked about, like, interacting with her computer, like playing an instrument or something like that. And, like, you almost have to learn how to, like, be in your body in a certain way to, like, not go into it and, like, only be in the head headspace but to kind of learn how to like still be in your body while you're interacting in that medium if that makes sense yeah no it's so interesting also because um you know there's how often do people check their emails now i mean even between the time that that book came out which was what a year and a half ago two years ago and now

you know with the the growth of devices where it's like, I was sitting in a coffee shop the other day, just waiting in line to get my coffee, not even there yet. And I'm just standing there and I just, I scan the whole shop. And at first, I catch like two or three people with their heads down. And then I'm like, huh, let me just scan everything here. Literally, out of maybe 35 people there was one person who didn't have their head looking down at their phone so and it's become this intermittent thing where like you're just checking i would love to have somebody sort of like sit maybe i'll do

this as an experiment sit in the coffee shop and just like calculate the percentage of people's time checking email and checking so if that becomes a persistent state and it constantly affects your anxiety levels like that, it can't be good over time. Right. Well, and it's also like it's even if it's, you know, it's just other, it's just new thoughts coming into your brain from other people, largely unasked for like all the time, you know, so you're just kind of constantly reacting, even if you're not getting upset or responding right then.

It's just this sort of new information. Whereas let's say you're like, you could be looking at that stuff, having it going in the background when you're working all day on your computer, but let's say you decide, oh, I'm going to turn off my phone and go make a table or something.

The amount of just like inbound information that you're experiencing is so different right you know it's funny you use that example because this table that we're actually hanging out i made you made it and almost for like that exact same reason i was like you know what i haven't made stuff in a really long time and i'm jonesing seriously to make something yeah so i turned off everything with the exception of the diy post that I downloaded that taught me how to do it. And then I just sat there and I spent like, you know, a chunk of a couple of weeks just

making this, you know, sort of like plaster table and stuff like that. It was probably a good couple of weeks. It was amazing. It was amazing. And I've been jonesing so much to reconnect with that. And I'm, you know, like you, I love to write and I love to express myself that way. But there's something about creating something with your hands. So let me ask you something else.

Okay, so you're a writer. You have a long history now as a publisher, as an editor, as a writer doing all sorts of things. What gives you a deeper sort of sense of, yeah, that the writing or like when you actually see it, like you pick up the book, the tangible product that contains it. Oh, I thought you were going to ask me about writing versus editing. We'll get there. Oh, gosh, I don't know. I mean, there's such, it's so funny because I feel like, I'm sure you've experienced this, you know, when you're

working on a book, you know, or even like, let's say you're doing like the final proofread of something you're going to print, you know, and I get so, you know, so anal about it and like, oh my God, it has to be perfect. But like what you always kind of forget is that you, you know, then you end up doing that like seven or eight times or something like that. And so like by the time you actually get the book, like you totally don't want to look at the inside like ever again. Yeah, I've like that. And so by the time you actually get the book, you totally don't want to look at the inside ever again.

Yeah, I've experienced that. So I think in a way it's funny. It literally becomes almost primarily a tangible object by the time that you get it. And then you're kind of going into the whole aspect of promoting it, which is like shifting into a different mindset. So I kind of avoided that. But no, I mean, I think they're different.

You know, writing is such a kind of, you know, it's fun and completely agonizing and, you know, a lot of kind of problem solving. And, you know, I think it's just a very different state than having a thing. But, you know, it's just, I mean, I love having, that's why I love printed books. You know, I still buy, like I don't, I'm not a Kindle person. I'm the same way. Yeah. Like,

I love the feeling of a book in my hand. There's something you can't, you can't replace. But it's funny too, that I, when I'm done writing and it's accepted and it's like done and I get the tangible book, it doesn't do anything for me. Is it because you've moved on, do you think? I think it's, and I've tried to figure this out because I have other friends who are like, I see literally like, you know, like selfies posted online and they're crying when they open it. Like they actually see their book for the first time. And I don't feel any of that.

And I think it's because for me, it's just, you know, that Richard Feynman put, you know, it's the kick in finding the thing out that really drives me. It's not the actual book at the end. But what's interesting is when you talk about, like, crafts and stuff like that, like this table we're hanging out, that is. For me, like, I love that. You know, I love to just sort of like you know so i guess it really depends on what it is that i'm creating it's sort of like situation

specific or something yeah no i mean i know what you mean but i guess i like that you can then share then you can share it you know it's like that thing that i've you know like oh my god like you know you're talking to a friend like you've been listening to me talk or bitch about this thing forever. Now I can actually show you what it is. You know, I think I've been grumbling about it all this time. Yeah, exactly. All those deadlines. Right.

So let's kind of jump back into your journey. So you end up in Boston. Where'd you go in college? I went to Boston University. All right. Where'd you study then? I actually did this program. If you know Gallatin at NYU, it doesn't exist anymore,

but it was called the University Professors Program. It was one of those honors programs where you could just design your own major type of thing. One of those. Yeah, which actually probably is not really good at preparing people for real life in any way. Maybe for entrepreneurship. Theoretically, you could say it's a good idea. Anyway, I did literature, basically like

literature and film. I did a lot of French and American literature. And then I also did, the film was sort of like I kind of like snuck into the writing parts of the MFA film program and like wrote like a couple of feature length screenplays.

So was that something you were interested in or thinking about? Yeah. I mean, it's something I'm still interested in. I've always, I mean, I still on, on the side, like, you know, work on, work on screenplays and stuff like that. And like, I'm working, it's super fun for me because I'm working on the book trailer right now for the new book with, um, a friend of mine who's a filmmaker and I love doing that.

Um, but yeah, I I never I was always interested in the film industry but I think there's something about the industry itself and the level of respect for writing that always kind of kept me away a little bit. It's an interesting place to be. I know, I have a fantasy about writing some sort of screenplay at some point also.

Probably most writers do. You have to imagine, right? I think everybody has a fantasy about writing a book at some point and then every writer at some at some point like i need something on the big screen yeah purely ego based for me i'm sure that's yeah for most people you know it is for me i don't know if you feel this way also but i love um i'm kind of obsessed with story and storytelling and i love the idea of trying to figure out the story um And which is funny because so far, at least until now, I've written all nonfiction. But there's fiction in there. Yeah.

It's like starting to like really kick to get out. Yeah. I think that was actually something I always struggled with screenplays is like I'm very, I think I'm probably very good at character, but not as good at plot. Or I get like, like I just get so into the details that, you know, I can kind of lose, I can lose the bigger picture a little bit sometimes. You end up in the weeds. Yeah.

So you hang out there and, um, you're studying literature and stuff like that. And, um, and then you bounce from there into the world of straight into the world of entrepreneurship into something. No, no. So I was, um, well, so while, I mean, while I was in school, even before I was in school, like I did, um, when I was in high school, I did an internship at, um, the public news in Houston, which is like, uh, say it's like the village voice of Houston. Um, but it's not that good. Um, but, um, I did that. And then I worked, um, I interned at the MIT press

during school while I was at view. And then I worked at another publishing office at MIT, which was actually this sort of weird office that was set up to, weird but really smart, to try to unify, kind of bring good design to all of the publications at MIT. MIT is a really remarkable place, and you have all kinds of wildly intelligent people, some of whom have good design sensibilities, some of whom have the worst design sensibility anywhere possible. And so this office is kind of set up to help

them find the resources and get good design so that there would be some sort of consistency of all these publications coming out of all these weird, different siloed offices at MIT. Anyway, point being, that ended up being an early introduction to the importance of design and working with people on publishing and just the mechanics of publishing. So then when I got out, I actually worked at a really small web design firm, someone I knew through that job.

Um, and I was doing like all aspects of, um, I was kind of like the, it was literally three other people at the firm. Um, and I would kind of do like everything that no one else would do. And you're basically just teaching yourself how to do everything at this point, right? Oh yeah. One, like doing some, like, you know, using like Dreamweaver. I remember using Dreamweaver, like fireworks or something like that. Yeah, and building like, you know, database for like, it was when we were in like ASP.

And I think, what is it? Was it Microsoft Project? It was like the front page or something like that. It was the web thing. There was a, what was the database? I can't remember what the database solution was. Anyway, doing database, you know, sizing photos, doing project management, whatever, you know. And it was, so I did that for about a couple years.

And then I got laid off because it was the dot bomb. So I actually worked in this huge. So like late 90s. Yeah, exactly. And, or actually it was about, let's see, 2001. Okay. or actually it was about let's see 2001 okay and so then I but it was good

because I learned all the I didn't know how it would come into play later but I kind of learned all of the things about making websites right and then

I ended up I was doing like kind of freelance like copywriting copy editing stuff like that while I was trying to figure out what to do next

and then I moved to New York and, um, and then I ended up, um, basically volunteering with, um, Flavor Pill, which was, you know, Flavor Pill, right? So for anyone who doesn't know, it's sort of like a, you know, kind of a timeout online, like sort of cultural events guide, right? Guide to kind of the coolest things going on in the city. And they were, it was really just the two founders, Sasha and Mark at that time. And like maybe like one other guy and a couple of interns. And, um, so it was essentially a startup, but people weren't really talking about startups that are like, they weren't calling them startups then. Um, it was just a company with no money. Right. And like a good idea. Yeah, exactly. So then I basically kind of ended up coming on.

I think it's their first full-time employee. And we kind of build out this whole editorial operation where we had, and it was email publications. It was that era of like Daily Candy and so forth. Right, so it's like a big daily sort of like. Yeah, and so we had weekly publications in a bunch of different cities, Guide to LA, San Francisco. So at this point, are you thinking to yourself,

okay, I've done like a handful of different things in this space. I'm getting a hold on technology. I'm getting a hold on entrepreneurship. I'm getting a hold on content. Are you kind of thinking, I really have my finger on the beat of, like there's something happening here with technology and content as a driver for a business? Yeah, totally.

I mean, I think we, and then we ended up like launching new publications while I was there and like kind of working with designers on building that. So it just kind of became this thing where it was like, okay, like really learning how to, um, build and design and launch like online publications, you know, that kind of became what I was really into. Um, but it's one of those things, right? Like in the moment you're never like, oh yeah, like, yeah, you just see it all coming together. You just show it. It worked that time. Yeah.

Like, you know, upon reflection, you're like, oh, this actually like there is a through line. But I think you usually find it, you know, when you're looking back rather than when you're looking forward. But, yeah, so I was there. I was there for many years until I think when we left, it was like, it was an editorial team of like 25 people. And, you know, as I said, we got to sort of build and launch a lot of stuff, which was really great. And then, and then I ended up going through kind of a transitional period again, taking

a job in LA that was kind of like, ended up being sort of like a bad idea. But which is good. Right. So we can't just gloss over that. i want to talk about the bad idea yeah well so i ended up going to um i got i got hired basically um by this sort of large um music website and they were like they had seen what flavor pill had done you know kind of very cool hip culture take on cultural stuff right they were like we want to reinvent this sort of old website as something kind of new and hip,

and we want to bring you on to do it type of thing. But it was one of those things where then I went out there, and it was the CEO who had hired me, but then everyone who actually worked there wasn't really clued into or on board with this idea. Yeah, that is a good decision. It just happened to me, and it's a horrible position to be in. Yeah, and it was also more money than I had ever made.

And I was like, you know, and you're like, great, you're a little seduced. Right. And I'm like, okay, great. Like, they value me, you know. But then I got out there and it was a different story. And it was a very kind of corporate-ish type of culture and office. And you're not a corporate-ish type of person. No, not at all.

So it was very short, though. So I stayed out there like 10 months, and I was like, this isn't working. And I actually ended up getting into a relationship with someone back in New York at the time, so then I came back to New York. But it's one of those things, because when you

think about it in the moment, or when you talk to someone, you're like, oh, God. They think, oh, it must have really sucked. It must have been really bad to move across the country and take a shitty job and whatever. But it was so valuable because immediately I was like, oh, I really like being in a startup culture. I hate being in any kind of corporate culture. And loving my job is so much more important than how much money I'm making.

And so it's all these things that were like really valuable lessons to get, you know, I was like 30 then, to get at that age and be like, okay, now I like know and I don't have to make those bad decisions, you know, maybe at points when it would sort of be have more of an impact or something like that. So when you left, how'd they take it? Oh, it was fine, actually. Well, the funny thing was is the guy who I, the CEO had introduced me to who was going to be my boss,

who I liked, left like two months after I started, which is like, you know, so you're kind of like, oh, it's already falling apart type of thing. So yeah, I mean, it ended up being fine. It was one of those things where like, you kind of see the writing on the wall, I think, a little bit. So you ended up coming back here then for a combination of work and love. Yeah.

Did you know what you were coming back to at the time? I didn't. I mean, I was really trying to figure out, like, I knew at that point, like, that my sweet spot was kind of a startup-y, like, editorial publishing thing. But, like, I didn't know what it was you know um so i came back and then um i actually helped one of the guys who had kind of left the flavor pill family was um sort of taking his publication and and transforming it from like a weekly email into a daily blog and so i worked with him um you know i was doing some kind of basically like working with him as a, um, content consultant on the launch. And he was, um, this is, uh, Jason Campbell who works in the fashion world.

And he introduced me, he ended up introducing me to Scott, um, Scott Belsky. So I did an interview with Scott and we kind of connected. Um, and then we just stayed in touch. He had, so he landed a book deal for making ideas happen. And, um, he landed a book deal for Making Ideas Happen and he, you know, was running the hands and super busy and just kind of needed like basically sort of like an, you know, kind of an ally to like help him stay on track with the book and like kind of be a, you know, kind of first line editor and, you know, and also just like kind of bounce ideas off of

and be sort of a, you know, and also just like kind of bounce ideas off of and be sort of a, you know, kind of a partner and, and pushing it forward. So I kind of came on to help him do that as like a freelance project. So really like just for the book. Yeah, exactly. Um, Scott being very, um, you know, kind of smart and organized as he is was like, you know, I'll, I'll be able to do this much more successfully and kind of meet my deadlines. If I have someone who's kind of like being like, Hey, did you do that thing? Like, what about this? Or, you know, I'll be able to do this much more successfully and kind of meet my deadlines if I have someone who's kind of like being like, hey, did you do that thing? Like, what about this? Right.

So you were like a combination project and editorial manager. Yeah, exactly. For his personal process. Yeah, exactly. So that was really fun. And, you know, that was at maybe the fall of 2008, something like that. And I turned in the manuscript in the spring maybe, and we were kind of like, oh, we really like working together.

So I had been sort of around the Behance office, but I wasn't working on Behance at the time or anything. I just kind of met some of the folks through working with Scott. But yeah, we finished the project. We really liked working together. And then right around that time, so they had done the first, so 99U started out as a conference, actually not as an editorial entity exactly. Um, so they had just done the first conference and that was, um, two people.

So I wasn't involved in the production of the first conference, but I went to it. Um, and you know, the kind of concept of the conference, right, which is based on this Thomas Edison quote, genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration. Like really focusing on idea execution and nothing related to like creative inspiration. You know, it's much more like how did you do that? Right, just like get it out of your head and into the world. Yeah, really getting into how people did stuff. So one of the speakers at that event that was really cool, for instance, was like Robert Hammond, who was the co-founder of the High Line,

and he talked about the 10-year process of making the High Line, which was really interesting because he didn't set out to make the High Line Park. Like, they just set out to save the High Line, and then it evolved and evolved and evolved until it turned into this park. But, you know, kind of behind the scenes, that type of stuff. So anyway, the conference really resonated with people. Like, they love this concept. And Scott and I were kind of like, oh, we really want to keep working together.

And, you know, how do we do that? And then we kind of happened on this idea. We were basically like, well, that first year was really successful, but it was still hard to sell out the conference. And so it was basically like, you know, what if we created like sort of, you know, 24-7 editorial engine to engage people with the brand? And then when like we asked them to buy tickets for this conference once a year, like they'll actually know what it is and they'll be on board with it, you know?

And so that was kind of like how it started. And the guy who had been one of the original producers at the conference had left Behance. And there was also this thing that was called, so kind of the nascent version of 99U was the Behance Magazine, which I don't know if you know about. No, I don't. It was sort of like tucked away. Totally new to me. Before Behance became more streamlined, there were all these little things like tucked away

in different parts of the website. And one of them was the Behance magazine, which is really kind of small and kind of a side project that Scott would write a tip when he had a few minutes or something like that. It was very small and just kind of like... But it was sort of a little bit of the idea of these actionable insights. So we were basically like, why don't we take that notion and kind of build it into an editorial entity and we'll rebrand all of this 99U and then like that we'll kind of make it into this bigger thing. And so I kind of came on to lead that as we did that. And that was kind of

like how the whole thing started. So, and that really just like took everything that you had done up until that point. Yeah, it was like perfect. I kind of bundled it into like, okay, this is everything I love, editorial technology. Right, plus event production, which I'd never done. Huh. So how'd you feel about that, just coming in and saying, all right. Well, it was funny because like it was, it wasn't even like really clear to me, I think,

at the time. Like I was like, oh, because we were just working, like it was all about how are we going to get the editorial to the site and like what's the vision for the site going to be? And I was like, oh, cause we were just working, like it was all about how are we going to get the editorial to the site and like, what's the vision for the site going to be? And I was like thinking about that. And then at a certain point, like, you know, maybe three months in after we had launched the site, it became, I was like, oh, oh, I'm going to have to do the conference. It was kind of like this like, oh shit moment. Like, I don't know anything about this. Never done that before you know in the first year of doing it it was like brutal

but you know we're headed into the seventh like the seventh year of doing the conference now and I love it I didn't realize that I actually had a skill set which is extremely well suited to doing events but you know I just hadn't done it before

and that conference like from what I know, sells out. Yeah, I think we're about 50% sold out and we haven't announced speakers in the conferences until May of next year. That's not a bad place to be. Yeah, so it's really good. And I think our whole thing with the conference, it's a conference about great idea execution. So, like, we have to embody that in the conference itself. Like, it needs to be incredibly well executed.

You know, and then just really tapping into all of the Behance design expertise that we have on hand. You know, it just, it's really, like, the level of, like, materials that we design and how much, much like depth we get into it is kind of maniacal which is and it's curious too for me because when you serve you know a pretty huge global community of designers and you're like you have that everybody who is looking at everything that you do yeah like not just for the content but like every single design choice that you make yeah you know you know is going to be observed and critiqued, even if not outwardly that people are going to be thinking, well, why did they do that?

I wouldn't have done that or that's beautiful. So when it comes to executing both, you know, on the editorial side and in the conference, I mean, I would imagine the internal pressure, just knowing who the audience are serving is pretty big. Not to like reinforce that. It's like you're starting to sweat. Yeah, no.

Well, it's actually one thing I think about. I'll come to the design, but I think about it a lot for the curation because one of the funny things about selling out before you announce speakers is that when you announce speakers, you're like, oh shit, like these better, I hope these people like these speakers. So like it kind of creates this like. They bought into the brand. Yeah, exactly. So it kind of creates this extra layer of need to set the bar really high.

But on the design side, I think that's true. But it also has the plus of meaning there's a lot of incredibly nerdy design people who are really into the brand who just like you know will really appreciate how much attention to detail like they put into you know the badges or you know these tiny little cards that we hand out or you know kind of every little thing and you know back to our point of creating tangible things like that's it's kind of we create so much stuff for the conference it's a little bit like we produce probably who knows how many you know pieces we produce but um you know something like 30 probably like 30 and 40

independent you know banners motion graphics brochures blah blah um but to our point of you know tangible things like it's kind of amazing like you have this just all of this stuff that you made at the end and there's something like really quite gratifying about that and just like seeing people engage with it at the event you know yeah no and there's something so powerful about bringing people together in a room i know you know we've um we just did our first sort of like more sizable event a couple months ago with our camp so we had 250 people come and basically we took over a summer camp for almost four days and it was it was magical

and mysterious and incredible and um yeah you know going into it um we're like i don't know if i'm ever doing this again because this was ridiculous when you do the first event that's how you always yeah you're like okay um and then it's easier john right and then 24 hours in we're like oh this is so much bigger than us. Of course this has to happen again. But we have a similar sort of like attention to like really detail on just a fanatical level. And I mean the bags that they got and then the bags that they took away and everything that went into it was handcrafted and made and stuff like that. And in a way that a lot of people probably don't even know, but I just feel like they feel it. Yeah, no, I mean, people totally notice.

Like, to think about one, so one nerdy detail is that I make these, I make the music mixes for, like, every single break during the conference. Or I, like, literally, you know, I use also some from a friend of mine, Ari, but I I program like, you know, I program them like, OK, this is like the morning session. Like people are walking in. Like, how do we want it to feel? You know, like you don't want a lot of energy, like kind of chill, like getting started, you know. And then, you know, like this year I got really excited and I get really excited about it. But like I picked like the walkout music. I was like, OK, like this is the first song people are going to hear when they're walking out of the conference.

Like, what do we want it to be? And I really nerd out on those details, but people notice. People comment on the music every year, and it's one of my favorite things. I'm always like, oh, they notice the music. I so agree. I think so often in experiences like that, it's not the one big thing.

It's the thousand tiny things that add up and just create the experience. So a lot of times, sometimes people can put their finger on all that music, like that song. But I think a lot of times also people just leave and they just know that what just happened was extraordinary and they're not entirely sure why or what was so different. They just know it was. The totality of the experience was like nothing they'd ever done before. Yeah.

And I think it's like that level of personal care. Like you were saying, people just feel it. And I was actually thinking about, as I was coming over here, I was thinking about this book, Make Your Mark, and I was thinking about some of the things that really resonated with me in it. And one of them was an interview I did with Neil from Warby Parker. And one of the things that he talks about with regard to their brand is this notion of like inspiring confidence every step of the way.

So it's, yes, you have the product for them. It's glasses, you know, for us. I mean, it's a conference. Maybe it's speakers or like the core product or something like that. But this notion of like every step of the way, you know, like you're saying, like they get the gift back. I get the gift back. It looks amazing.

Or, you know, you hear the music and the music's amazing. Like every thing that you touch and you experience is sort of inspiring confidence in this experience, in the brand, you know? Yeah, no, it's amazing. And I think it's overlooked a lot also, which I happen to love because it's an entrepreneur, like in a maker and a creator.

It means that if you're willing to actually go there, then there's not a lot of competition. You know, it's just kind of a fun, if you're willing to actually do that, it's cool. So if you're listening to this, you want to go there. It takes a lot of work. You have to be very neurotic, but it works. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. You have to be very neurotic, but it works. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you brought up the book. So let's kind of zoom forward a little bit um so you end up basically

uh overseeing 99 you the editorial engine the conference and building into this really substantial um both global community and global body of work uh huge um collection of content really extraordinary well edited well written content that becomes really amazing resources and inspiration for a lot of people, and beyond inspiration, you know, like actionable stuff. Hopefully. Yeah. And then not too long ago, you guys came out with a,

started to create your own series of books. So, and as we're sitting here recording this, you're on the verge of coming out with, I guess, what's the last in the first three book series. Tell me a little bit about this series. Well, the series kind of sprang out of this notion of, it was really all about, the original concept was self-management and kind of these different pieces of self-management. So it's kind of like, you know, it's really remarkable, right? The means of production are so accessible. You know, we can, a group of one person, three people, 10 people can

create something kind of amazing and world-changing, which is remarkable, but it also means there's a lot of responsibility for you to just be able to manage yourself all the time and in a variety of different ways. And so the books kind of break down into these different levels of that. So the first book, Manage Your Day Today, was kind of like, let's take the atomic unit of the day. Like, how do I manage my time so that I can produce great creative work every single day? That was like the subject of that book. And then the second book gets a little bigger.

It's sort of like, OK, my career, you know, how given this kind of new landscape where, you know, people are staying at jobs for a max of three to four years, constantly having to reinvent themselves, you know, you know, community manager is a hugely in demand job now, but there'll be a job with a name I don't even know that'll be the most in demand job in five years from now. Like, how does that, what does that mean for how I manage my career? And then the kind of third, I just sort of think of it as like kind of concentric circles is, you know, your business. And so like, how do you, how do you, you know, how do you manage your business and how do

you create something that really has meaning and is going to like have an impact in the world as opposed to just, you know, trying to make widgets or something like that. And it's interesting. You were incredibly thoughtful to invite me to participate in one of the books. And the last one to come out in the series called Make Your Mark is the topic that actually probably calls me the most because it's the question that I'm constantly exploring. I'm constantly dancing with this idea of what you know, what am I here to contribute?

How does that balance with the way I want to live in the world and who I want to serve and be with? And what am I willing to give up in the name of it? You know, and it's a really, they're not easy questions. You know, it'd be so nice. And you can look at all these different exemplars um i think that's one of the cool things is that when you when you guys put out something like this or when you curate it and you actually do a bunch of the interviews that end up turning

to countdown for it is that it's not just one voice yeah but you bring together this really interesting um curated sort of like a collection of humans who performed at exceptional levels to share their experience in a real kind of like non-fluffy, oh, everything was great. Right, hopefully not. We're definitely not after each other's things. Talk to me a little bit about this newest book, Make Your Mark, and what are some of the the um the conversations that from you and

the big ideas the topics really jumped out at you surprised you um were like the big moments where you're like oh i went into this but i wasn't even thinking about that and wow well i think the most surprising thing about the whole book and the way that these people are kind of talking about business was the level of sort of humanity they were talking about it with. You know, from the level of, you know, I think probably my favorite chapter is still the first one, which is really about defining your purpose. Probably because I like most to spend my time in that kind of like imaginative space where you're kind of asking those questions. Um, but just really seeing this shift to what you're talking about of, um, you know, businesses really, you know, you used to, I won't say people didn't think about purpose before, but I think we're kind of at this place where as individuals, as businesses, we're kind of constantly asking for more, you know,

and so we don't want to just make stuff, we want to make stuff that like has meaning, and that's going to have a real impact in the world. And, you know, so I think digging into some of those questions in the first chapter was really one of my favorite parts, but also even like, get into a chapter that we have, you know, it's all about kind of serving customers. And, you know, I love the sort of Shane Snow's essay where he talks about kind of small kindnesses. And that kind of goes back to what you and I were just talking about, like all those little loving details. And all of it really, like, it seems like it comes down to this idea that, you know, you used to just sort of make a product and just making that product and maybe

making that product well was enough, like to distinguish you and to make you successful as a business. But now I guess it's, you know, I think that it's so easy, you know, for someone to catch up, whether it's, you know, making a knockoff iPhone in China or, you know, maybe you're making something that's easy enough to be 3D printed or something like that. But people can catch up to you so quickly in terms of, like,

the thing that you're making that what starts to really distinguish products is, like, making a great product is just the start. And then there's this whole, you know, ecosystem of kind of experience that lives around it. And that whole package is becoming the competitive advantage. So if you go back to my conversation with Neil from Warby Parker, he talks about they're distinguishing themselves on price, but also on style, also on customer

service, also on social mission. And they kind of talk to customers about which order these things matter to them, you know, and kind of try to, you know, kind of rank the way that they sort of present things based on that. But, you know, so it's not just, you know, yeah, they make great glasses, but like in a sense like that's not, the brand isn't, it's about so much more than that. And like that's what people are paying for. It's like also that amazing customer experience. Also that feeling that like, oh, someone else is getting a pair of glasses

when I buy a pair of glasses. You know, all of these different levels. And I think that's really interesting, you know. Yeah. And I think we are, so I think there's a combination of an openness to the possibility that you actually can run a sustainable business and it also being about something bigger than the customers and the shareholders maybe. Or maybe, you know, it is about the customers and the shareholders,

but actually the best way to, you know, like the obligation if you're a public company is, you know, maximize shareholder value, that maybe that actually having a bigger purpose, serving a bigger community, like going beyond that, actually may be the best path to sort of like even do that. But also, like I wonder how much of this is driven by um sort of gen y ethic of you know like we want to work somewhere with a sense of meaning and purpose and we also want to buy more from somebody who we know is doing good in the world you know

you see it also in the growth of like the mega growth of some really new um to use adam ron's word for purpose organizations and pencils of promise and charity water they're sexy they're they're crazy attention to visual branding like it's never happened in that world before but also fundamentally like they're really they're tapping into this like zeitgeist of a particular generation to want to give in a particular way um and see all the money flow through. And I think that they're doing it in a sort of a for-purpose way. But I think that large organizations are starting to say, huh, that's actually not just for that world.

It's got to be a bigger part of our ecosystem too. But I think it's also we're not at that point where I think it's like, yes, that needs to be part of it, but it's only part of it, right? Because there was this era, like a period maybe five or ten years ago where like even still now some companies try to position themselves only on social good. Like they have a product, but like they try to position the social good part up front and people don't care that much about it i don't think it's believable yeah you know unless you're pure like a pure charity or pure foundation and you buy it but if like you're out there and like you know if pepsi comes out and says we're you know like it's all about the cause now um not just land pepsi in any way but just like a company of

substantial size where you know it's about the bottom line you know it's like how do you actually do something where it's like yes we want to make money um but we also want to do good and that's okay yeah we can kind of do it but we want to make money yeah for real we do um i but i don't think people would begrudge a company that um no if they're i think that that dance has been i think um you've got it's okay to be up front about the fact that yeah you know like we want to really be successful. So we're not going to tell you that this is all about social good when it's really not. But it's a piece of what we're thinking about. Right. Well, and that's what sustainable business is about, right? You can't be a sustainable business if you're not doing good business and making some money.

And then this is how the sustainability from an environmental perspective or the social good perspective can fit into, um, can fit into that. But yeah, I mean, I guess the other thing that we were, we were kind of dancing around, right. Is that, um, we're talking about humanity is that kind of notion that you can't escape having to actually sort of be more real and be more human these days you know people are always using the term authenticity and it comes up a lot but that notion that like it used to be businesses used to just kind of very top down like push out their message you know through channels that were not too way obviously like social media and all those things now everyone can talk back

and so you just have to um you know you get to have more of a conversation with people, which is really interesting and really exciting and also really scary at the same time, you know. I mean, it's like a level of, you know, like there's, I remember there's, I may have it in my bookshelf somewhere. I think it was a book called Tactical Transparency. I used to love that term. But now it's getting to a point where I think it's almost like forced transparency. Yeah, it's not tight. It's just happening. Right. It's like whether you want it or not, it may not be 100% transparent,

but there will be a level of transparency imposed on you even if you don't adopt it or choose it. So rather than fight that, just say, okay, if I assume this is my reality moving forward, how am I going to live into that? And how am I going to build an organization around it? And both in terms of how people perceive it outside, but then what about the culture within the organization too?

Yeah. Well, there's a really nice, I really like the essay from Craig at Dodo Case, kind of on that topic, where he's talking about when they first launched Dodo Case, they launched it kind of, their sort of book-binding technique made cases for iPads, and they launched it with the first iPad kind of simultaneously.

And they had like a huge backlog, and I think they were maybe six to eight weeks behind schedule or something like that. So they were asking people to pay like a really high price point for something to protect their iPad and then to wait like two months for it or something like that. I remember because I was on that list. You were on that list, right?

I was. And their kind of take was just to be really transparent about, you know, what was going on, like that they had much more demand than they expected and that they were, you know, just, you know, tweeting pictures of like, you know, we're overwhelmed and we're trying really, really hard and kind of constantly doing things that would show how they were working really hard to get people their orders. And people were, like, okay with that. And, in fact, they ended up sharing that stuff a lot more. And I think there's something really amazing about that. And to your point of people, you know, really being able to

almost connect with your business in a way that they're rooting for you to do well you know as opposed to just having this very like non-transparent interaction with buying a product and not knowing who's behind it yeah i mean i think people so many of us as entrepreneurs creators like the people behind a company you you try and um you grew up in a culture if you've been, like the people behind a company, you try and, you grew up in a culture, if you've been around the world of business for any amount of time, where you want the external world to experience you as close to

perfection as possible, if that's the experience, rather than as close to humanity as possible. And I think there is, especially if you're a younger company, I think there's this, people want to connect with the hero's journey in the company. And it's much better to bring them in and say, look, we love you.

And we realize we have so not met your expectations right now, but we're working so hard and we believe so much what we're doing. We're treating our people really well and we want to treat you well and we will. And if you want to bail, like I get it, you know, it's totally cool. We'll give you your money back, whatever it is. But if you would support us in this as we're really working really hard, we're just a couple of nice people really trying to do the job. Yeah.

You know, that'd be awesome. Yeah. It gets kind of hard. What's interesting is you can do that when you're smaller. Yeah. But the bigger you get, the harder it is to pull that off. Right, right. Well, yeah, and it's, yeah, how do you do that?

And, yeah, we call it a high touch. Yeah. Right? Even when you look at just sort of like the messaging, the way it's changed with Apple over the last 10 years, you know, at a certain point, it's kind of hard to go out there and position yourself as the underdog, as the thing different when you're dominating the market.

And the psychology behind it changes pretty profoundly. I don't know anyone inside of Apple, but just from the messaging they're putting out there, it feels like they're struggling with that right now. Yeah, it starts to sound a little bit like more of the same thing even. Well, that's a separate topic. I was thinking about their copywriting today, but that's a whole other. That, that is, I know, like we're both like editorial and copyright people are like, huh, I wouldn't have done that. I love the company and the product. Um, what, what's another one or two, um, story or big

awakening or big, uh, surprise or aha that came out of this last tome? Well, yeah, I think I didn't really get into it when I was just saying how much I really enjoyed the purpose chapter. But, you know, I love the sort of Keith Yamashita's kind of first moment of talking about really being able to distill down your purpose. So who's Keith? So Keith is the founder and CEO of SY Partners, and they consult on leadership with GE, Starbucks. They manage the Starbucks redesign that was rolled out a couple of years ago. So they work with these huge brands and help them kind of learn how to lead and also how to navigate change when their brands are going through.

So, you know, maybe Apple needs to talk to them right now. But so, you know, he's doing a lot of, a lot of talking to leaders of huge companies. And he talks about the importance of really being able to distill,

distill down your purpose. And by distill, like, you know, to like seven or eight words. And I really like the story that he tells about you know his own kind of awakening to that moment of um you know seeing um this guy bill mcdonough speak and asking him what you know bill what are what are you trying to do and he says you know bring respect back to elderhood in america He's like, okay, that's it.

But then he kind of goes on to, Keith goes on to talk about how, and kind of what he learned from Bill, about how that really allows you to make so many different decisions sort of quickly and with confidence when you're able to distill down, you know, what you're trying to do personally or what you're trying to do with your business to something that that simple you can say, you know, and he, he talks about Bill sort of saying like that, that's, you know, he only does the things that are going to contribute the most value to this purpose. And that's how he decides what he's going to do, you know, and as, as you know, and I know you can't do everything and, um, you know, sort of the accessibility of, um, you know, social media and email means that you're going to get a lot more inquiries to do all kinds of different things and a lot of opportunities. And I think purpose as something that serves as this compass, the more that you can distill it down, is incredibly valuable. I had a really interesting reaction to that essay. I thought on the one hand, I loved it. I have this built in knee jerk reaction to the term life purpose,

which is not the phrase that was used there. And so I read it as more, what's your burning question? Or what's the purpose that sits in front of you right now? Who knows if there's going to be your life purpose but you're like what are you fully and utterly 100 with the soul of your being committed to now right and you know maybe for this foreseeable future yeah um and then focus on that and and i so agree that when you get clarity around that um it makes decision making almost automatic because. Because if you get clarity on that, and then you ask that same question, like, will this substantially advance this particular purpose, there's usually a fairly clear yes or no, or pretty strong answer to that.

And if you can say no to a whole lot of things, the few that you say yes to will be really sort of like maximum return on those things. And I think we're in the midst of just a massive, like a decision-making abyss these days. People don't know how to decide to say what, what do you say yes or no to. Yeah, no, totally. I'm reading this book right now called The Tyranny of Choice.

And it's kind of a really interesting examination of choice anxiety and what results from choice anxiety, which is decision fatigue, right? And it's so interesting how, to your point, being able to say no literally might be the biggest kind of competitive advantage right now in terms of time management you know just being able to stay focused on on what you're trying to do and obviously you need to know what you're trying to do to stay focused yeah i literally i got an email

from somebody recently who invited me to do something that i would actually love to do but i'm on deadline actually you know for one of my own books and i said no and he actually responded really quickly and congratulated me on being able to say no to it even though he really wanted to participate and he's like i i so respect that yeah um and he's like i'm surprised by it but you know that's really um it's something that i i look at it almost as a practice it's like it's like a yoga practice. Yeah, totally. But so powerful when you can get into the habit of it and just kind of

dissociate because there's so much baggage around doing it, like personally about letting other people down, about what's the FOMO and what am I missing out on and maybe something better that I should be doing. Yeah, yeah. Well, and actually to go back to Linda Stone, who I mentioned earlier when we were just having this conversation about email, she was kind of comparing it to, you know, traditional mail and saying, you know, you get your traditional mail, right? And you just throw out the junk mail and you keep what you want, what's valuable to you or what you need,

and you don't even think about it, you know? And she was sort of saying, you know, that email is kind of becoming the same way. Like, I think that, I mean, I personally still try to respond to every email that I get, you know, will I do that in a few years from now? Like, not so sure, you know, will everyone else? Like, I think we have this feeling like we, everyone is owed a response or, you know, and, um, but I think that, you know, eventually maybe we'll get to that place where it will be like, oh, well, this is something that I did. This is a, something I never asked for that I didn't, you know, kind of sign up for and I'm not going to feel like obligated to consider it. Um, you know, obviously it's not to say that like anything that you didn't think of in advance is like junk mail.

But I think it's like we're having to start to shift to this different mindset where it was like we're still in this old mindset where every email is equally important, you know. And there's a huge amount of prioritization that has to start happening. That's so great. I was just having, I got an introduction to somebody who i really wanted to meet and and make an interesting offer to and so i wrote a fairly long email which i normally don't do because i hate when i get long emails yeah because the expectation is well somebody just like you know wrote me a thousand words and you know like the expectations i'm not going to answer with three words um but i generally do i'm's a nod I took from Seth Godin.

It's not a disrespect thing. It's a survival thing. But so at the end of this email, like the last sentence that I wrote to him was, I said, I have no expectation in any way that you will respond to this email in kind, a simple yes, let's meet, or or no just not right would be awesome so like one to set him up that because i think a lot of people won't respond to an email like that just because of the thought of having to actually respond in kind on some level even if they're interested they're just like i can't muster up to like say yes in three paragraphs like yeah but you give

somebody permission to just say yes or just say no, and it's totally cool, no offense. And it worked. No, I think it's hugely important thinking, and I constantly asking people to speak at the conference or asking people to contribute to the book series.

A lot of asking people who are very busy, very talented, doing a lot of things. And I think a lot of people, when they do that, they don't think about their audience. So I have a thing that I actually do with some of my coworkers where they're ever extending an ask to someone for something. Because where do you usually write emails? You usually write emails at your desktop. Where do you get them? You get them on your phone.

So a lot of times you have this thing, giant thing on your desktop. It really looks like a reasonable amount of text but when you're like waiting online at starbucks and you're reading it on your phone it looks like like a nightmare that's such a good point so we do like i happen to do a little thing where i size it down to like a phone and i'm like how terrifying does this look like edit it down until it looks like something that you you know would actually respond to or continue reading to the bottom type of thing. That is great. And it's crucial. It's just funny because I think that those, you know, those communication skills and the

ability to write something in a concise way and to understand how someone is going to experience it is incredibly crucial to getting anything done, whether it's, you know, you want someone to say yes to someone, you want a designer to help you work on something, you want a publisher to talk to you about a book proposal, whatever it is. Yeah. I think that's the big thing is that, and I think this, at least from my side, I'm curious what comes from you is really probably was just really almost beat into me from like learning to copyright. Is that the first thing you do is you put yourself in the position of the person receiving communication like how are they going to experience psychologically what's everything that could go through their mind and what what knee-jerk reactions will they have what

yeses what noes what so um i think that that ability yeah it's not it's not even so much of an ability it's just like a mindset right it's just like okay here's the final check before i send something out like sit in their seat and just, okay, how would they experience this? Yeah. It's huge. I think if more people would do that, they would end up getting a lot more yeses. And maybe we'd all have less email to read or shorter email to read. It's so bad, right? The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. So you're rocking out this third book, Continuing to Grow 99U. The content, community, the conference, all sorts of really big, cool things.

You having fun? Definitely. I mean, I think it was funny when we were talking about events earlier and you were talking about this recent event that you've done. I was thinking like, oh, my God, like I'm in such a different place now from, you know, when I did the first conference. You know, literally it was one of those things where you're like, oh, my God, how will I ever do this again? You know, I'm like a husk of a person. I'm only like a month off of that.

Still coming back. But, you know, it takes a lot out of you. But now it's, you know, it's one of those things where I've done it enough that it's, you know, that it's just fun. And, you know, I know how to, you know, I know how to ask someone to attend the conference. And we have a great backlog of people who have spoken before and um you know you're you know just where you get to that moment where you're kind of in the zone you know and you kind of know what you're doing but it's still fun because you um you know I mean it's it's such a great job to be able to just say you know have have kind of carte blanche at any time to reach out to someone amazing and say please come talk to me on the phone or come to my conference and tell me how

you did this thing. Like, you know, it's one of my favorite, I'm such a curious person, you know? So being able to do that is, is kind of incredible. Um, but I think what's interesting is how long it takes to get to that zone sometimes, you know, and maybe you've had this experience as well, like that, um, you know, I know one of the things I've had a lot of conversations with Scott about is, um, you know, how much you don't realize somehow sometimes how long it's going to take to get to that, like kind of sweet spot with, you know, with a business. Um, you know, so it's easy to, it's easy to kind of give up too soon.

It's something you talk a lot about in the essay that you wrote for the second 99-year book. You know, and I think sometimes you think, oh, like a year in or two years in, like you're going to be there, you know. But I think for us it's much more, you know, now we're, I mean, kind of officially started in 2009, so we're, you know, five going on six years in.

And I would say it probably took three or four years to really get to that point where you're really gunning. You're like, people know what we're doing. They're into it. And it's amazing to get to that moment, but it's also kind of terrifying to think about how easy it would be to not get to that moment as well. Yeah, it's like the classic, you ask an entrepreneur the day before they have the hockey stick moment and their company is tomorrow the day and they'd be like, could be that or it could be we're going out of business. Like you don't know.

And I think that's probably the most, the thing that so many entrepreneurs, creators, makers on almost any level struggle with, like whether you're a designer, an artist, a writer, an entrepreneur. You're putting your heart, your blood, your sweat, your tears in for years and you see the incremental growth and you don't know whether today is going to be, you know, where you break out or whether nothing happens or whether you just can't take it anymore. Do you call it? Yeah. And it's really tough to stay in it, you just can't take it anymore. Right. Do you call it? Yeah. And it's really tough to stay in it during those windows. I think it's more the people who endure who actually, you know, what was that famous Randy Nelson quote? Success is not about, eh, I'll forget it.

Yeah, I think there's immense power in staying in it long enough. And we drastically underestimate the amount of time that it is probably going to take to get there. It's funny, I spent a fair amount of time talking really young entrepreneurs who've left a full-time gig and have bills to pay and have three months of

runway to make something work into going back and getting a job. And in the name of giving themselves potentially a couple of years just to start to build it on the side, do more testing, they're running a lean process on the side to get the data and build. Because, you know, if you've got three months of money and then you're shut down, then you're not going to make decisions based on the right things. Yeah. And we definitely drastically underestimate that. Yeah.

And I was thinking about that the other day with just, I mean, you know, not entrepreneurship necessarily, building a business, just like everything takes at least 30 to 50 percent longer than you think it will. Just everything. I'd agree with that. what everything takes at least 30 to 50 percent longer than you think it will just everything i'd agree with that so i was like thinking like i've got to like start i've got to start making because we've been kind of so productive over the past couple of years i mean literally this is so this is like three books and about a year and a half and then we also we actually just wrapped up another um behance book that we're doing,

like a coffee table book, which I'm really excited about. But, um, you know, it's one of those things where it feels like it's been like a sprint for two years, two and a half years,

you know? Um, so I was thinking to myself, I've got to like start when I think about deadlines, I've got to like take my first instinct and then just add like 30 to 50% wartime onto it to start to get into a realistic range of like how long something would take without like making you crazy. Okay, so here's my question.

What is it about people that makes us do that? Because we know. It's like, you know, going in, you're like every time I've done this for the last 10 years, it always takes that. But I'm still going to make my initial estimate and I'm going to have to like add 30% to 50% 50 percent to it I don't know but it's probably like that basic over ambition of like you know the type of person who constantly wants to make new things or

constantly wants to do something that they don't know how to do you know you probably wouldn't even like do those things that you didn't know how to do if you weren't over ambitious and I guess it just translates into the deadlines or something like that. So coming full circle here the name of this last book is Make Your Mark. Do you have a sense for what mark

you want to make? Oh, that's an interesting question. Going deep at the end. Well I haven't this is where we have to see if i've distilled down my purpose to the uh kithi on the shida level that we were talking about but i don't i don't think i have um yeah i mean i don't know for me it's it's just always gonna it's gonna always continue to be publishing and writing for sure you know to me like events are another aspect of publishing um but like what's the like why what do you why i guess what are you trying to do through that i mean hi what i mean one of my favorite i think

one of my favorite things to do is to um you know help people kind kind of be their best selves in a certain way, which is funny because at a certain point I was like, I was thinking about 99U, I was like, do I run, like is this a self-help website? And I was kind of like, oh, is it? And then I was like, I don't know, but I still, I was like, I still totally believe in what's happening, you know, what we do, even though I hate, I personally hate this term, right? But even like, you know, sort I still totally believe in what's happening, what we do, even though I personally hate this term.

But even at all the different levels, if you're editing someone, the goal of editing is to help someone realize their best voice. Or if you're thinking about stuff that 99U does, it's like we get messages from people after the conference sometimes and they're like, I came to the conference with this idea and I got so pumped and I went home. We got a message from a guy the other day who people after the conference sometimes and they're like i came to the conference with this idea and like i got so pumped like i went home we got we got a message from a guy the other day he came to the conference like two years ago so he's like i just wanted you to know

it's actually a talk that joe gabia from airbnb gave and he made people do this exercise was like this kind of visioning exercise and this guy was like i just made that thing like you know that during that talk i drew like a year and a that thing. Like, you know, that during that talk, I drew like a year and a half ago or something like that. And it's like, that's awesome, you know, to actually really, really get to, you know, help people change their lives, you know? And that's, um, that's, I don't know. So I think anything that like helps people change their lives for the better. And that's kind of And that's kind of the through line for me of what you do with publishing,

whether it's books or events or whatever. It's almost like a... I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no. I always have this... There's this really amazing... I think it's a Stephen Mitchell translation of this Roka poem that's called

The Archaic Bust of Apollo. And it's just basically about this guy looking at a work of art and the way that the piece ends is he's like, you know, the last line of the piece is basically like, you must change your life, you know, and it's kind of about seeing something and just having like a totally transformative experience, you know. And I think there's,

you can change the way that someone thinks or you can change the way that someone acts. That's incredibly powerful. Agreed. So final question. Oh my God, it's going to get deeper. It depends. So when I wrap everything, every, every conversation with, which is the name of this project is Good Life Project. So if I ask you that question, what does it mean to you to live a good life?

Does that phrase have meaning to you? And if so, why? It does. I mean, I think for me, actually, that's kind of the sole question that's on my mind right now because I think I've very much been working in this environment, this startup environment, where work has been like the sole focus of my life.

And it's been incredible. Like we've produced so many remarkable things, but it's also incredibly unbalanced, you know, like not having enough bandwidth for other things in your life that feed you. So I'm really, you know, I, I can't answer the question, but I'm really in the process of like meditating on that question of like, what, what is the right balance? Um, you know, cause I have such a drive to make things and accomplish things and achieve things, but that alone is, you know, kind of burns you out at a certain point.

So I'm really at a moment where I'm trying to figure out what's that balance, like what's that kind of thing that, you know, that brings you more present into what's happening now rather than I'm just always like what's next, what's next, what's next, you know, to that point where you were talking about, you know, you maybe get a book and you're kind of like let me you know you're moved on and I'm very much like to that to that point where sometimes I'm not enjoying the experience or enjoying the act of making as much as I could be because I'm just constantly like you know what's what's going to be after this like what else are we going to do you know? So it's a lot more about trying to like, figure out how to be here and like, not be totally in the head and be a lot more present right now. It sounds like a little bit corny, but that's,

that's the big challenge, right? Indeed. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. Pleasure. Thanks so much for listening to Good Life Project. If you enjoyed this episode, I'd be so grateful if you'd share a quick review over on iTunes. It helps us get the word out to more people and make a bigger difference in the world. And hey, while you're there, please be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you'd love to know more about how we can help you live your best life, check out our upcoming events and courses at goodlifeproject.com. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off with gratitude. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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