Good Life Project - Joél Leon | Keeping Life Real

Episode Date: July 20, 2020

Joél Leon is a storyteller, performer, poet, musician, and author. Born and raised in the Bronx, from the earliest age, art, performing and music became both a refuge and a source of creative expression. He’d eventually land a spot at the famed New York High School for Performing Arts, where Joél continued to hone his theatrical chops. But driving it was always a fierce devotion to language and writing that led him to deepen into the craft and become a powerful voice and public storyteller exploring everything from parenting, joy, mental health, creativity, and performance to race, activism, and justice. Leon's work and devotion to revelation, truthtelling, and elevation have led to appearances at the legendary Apollo Theater, TED, TODAY Show, Joe's Pub, Rockwood Music Hall, Columbia University, NYU, Webster Hall, among others. You can find Joél Leon at:Website : http://mydaughtermayhave.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/joelakamag/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today, Joelle Leon, is a performer, poet, musician, author, and storyteller, born and raised in the Bronx in the 80s and 90s at a time where sort of dueling narratives define this part of the city, considered at once at the center of a crisis of drugs and violence, while also being a deeply connected community and with a strong sense of family and devotion. From the earliest age, art, performing, and music became both a refuge and a source of creative expression for Joel. He'd eventually land a spot at the famed New York High School for Performing Arts,

where Joel continued to hone his performance chops. But driving it underneath was always this fierce devotion to language and writing that led him over the intervening years to become a powerful voice and public storyteller, especially from the moment that we find ourselves now in as a society. His message and his craft led to appearances at the legendary Apollo Theater, on the TED stage, Today Show, Joe's Pub, Rockwood Music Hall, Columbia University, NYU, and so many others.

And over the last decade, straddling the worlds of commercial writing in the advertising and creative space, while also deepening into essays and books. Joel has carved out his place as a master storyteller, always leading not just with craft, but infusing his writing with performance and unfiltered honesty about everything from his struggles with his own self-worth, relationship with his dad, his lens on fatherhood, mental health, and especially now, much needed stories and insights around race and activism and justice.

We explore all of this and more in today's moving conversation. Cannot wait to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is A good life project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun

On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference Between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot?

There's been a lot of trippy shit That's been happening I think the world is on Some other shit right now. That's a good way to describe it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like everything is upside down. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But maybe that's what gets us to a place where we're right side up. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. And, you know, like I've been a part of a lot of conversations and i'm sure you've probably seen like the tweets in the posts about kind of going back to normal and i'm starting to see that less frequently thankfully but it's like man listen normal normal is getting folks killed man like what we've constituted and even what the Constitution, I guess, would consider to be normal law and behavior, it hasn't been healthy for us as a society, as America, as Americans. And so the kind of upheaval and really burning of a lot of these systems, the decolonizing of a lot of these systems, the upending of it. I think that that is, that's the work.

It's like everything is up. Everything is kind of up for grabs, it feels like, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because it's like, you and I haven't talked in, I want to say, like three months or something like that. And it's like, there's this sense of, first we get hit with a pandemic, right? And yeah, like we hear like all these people, I'm not going to say all these people, right? Because it's not true.

We hear a lot of people. We hear a segment of the population saying this is messed up. This is brutal. This is hard. I think we're all saying that. But then we hear a segment of the population saying, let's get back to normal, right? And like you said, okay, so that's not everyone, but the people who are saying it, that's us. And I'm one of them.

Yeah. And then in the middle of this, we have more police violence, more killing. And somehow the confluence, I think, of like this pent up isolation and pressure and sort of like joint suffering on a public health level yeah gets blended with what's happening with violence and systemic racism in this country in a way where the conversation is just different you know yeah yeah whether it leads to a different outcome man

i think we're all hoping it does yeah it's you know so it's really interesting when you said you know like yeah like that in the early days especially a lot of people like let's get can't wait to get back to a new normal it's like yeah well okay so the new normal for you know like white folks in the population was just getting past the pandemic but once you drop the police violence which is just you know a symptom of this bigger long-term thing. Yeah. Yeah. The openness to the conversation of what was the new normal and like what was right about that for some people and badly, badly broken for other people.

Yeah. And like, and I think, I think you're hitting the nail on the head, Jonathan. And I feel like that speaks to, even when we look at COVID and the disparities, right? Like that even in and of itself was bringing up a lot of the conversations that were needed to be had about medical treatment and the opportunities that Black and brown communities lack really with regards to like their white neighbors when it came to being able to get tested, how they were treated when they got tested. Like a lot of the things that are, it's very interesting too when we talk about racism and the very, the brilliant way racism is kind of seeped into everything. And so that it's not as overt. And so it's a lot easier to misdiagnose a situation. So as opposed to before, you would point to a noose,

which we can still point to, unfortunately, now. You can point to a lynching. You can point to men in white hoods who were burning crosses and go, oh, that's racism. Or this is whites only and blacks only, right? As opposed to disparities in healthcare, right? The lack of equity in the workforce, right? When you look at zoning and something as simple

as getting a home loan, COVID feels like it was really the powder keg for what this moment is, right? Like COVID with folks kind of A, being tired of being cooped up in the house, with the sense of urgency that a lot of people had to want to go back out anyway, really. I think this moment and really this Black Lives Matter, which existed before this moment and will continue to exist after this moment, fortunately or unfortunately, but COVID served as like the lead in to folks really saying, okay, enough is enough. We're already

tired in general. Like we're tired in general. And now you're seeing it in something I read recently, like you're seeing essentially those who grew up in the Obama era, right? Like, like the Gen Z is in like the younger section of millennials who are really saying, we want to hit the streets and be proactive. And we're not asking, we're demanding, and we're not just demanding freedom and liberation.. And we're not asking, we're demanding. And we're not just demanding freedom and liberation. We're demanding police reform and also abolishing the police in general. And what does that look like? Like a generation that's not afraid to imagine the world.

And I think COVID helped with that because it forced us to really look at the world in a way that we hadn't been forced to before. And now we're kind of left with, I think, I want to say like the remnants of like these choices. And we get to decide what we're going to be doing moving forward with the options at hand at this point. Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting right now with what's going on. And actually, I want to loop back to it, but it's really interesting, right? Because especially for you, like let's talk about you individually and your experience of this moment and then let's kind of go full circle and broaden out again and kind of like wrap back here because we're talking about this moment where it's like the world is on fire um yeah things are you know

like everything is being re-examined there feels like danger coming in all sorts of different directions from all sorts of ways um i'm curious with you just on a personal level because you came up in the south bronx like you're born in the early 80s you come up in the south bronx in the 90s which is you know like the famous quote is you know the Bronx is on fire in the 90s yeah yeah and it's a really interesting it's almost this sort of like I wonder if you reflect on parallels from sort of like around that moment and in any way shape or form what's happening now well you know it's interesting because like I grew up probably closer to like Fordham Road which is a little further north Bronx area.

Right. But like even it's funny you mention that because there was there was looting, quote unquote, air quotes. Right. There was looting that happened actually a block away from where my mom is now. My mom is still in the Bronx, still in the same neighborhood on Creston Avenue, Fordham Road. And, you know, there was an outcry from certain parts of the community.

So, like, you know, don't burn down these businesses like this is not the right way to go. And I hear and understand that. But I think about you bringing that up does make me think about Robert Moses and Robert Moses, right. Building the Cross Bronx Expressway, which essentially destroys property, you know, very in a very modest, in a more destructive fashion than like a couple of people burning down a pharmacy. But whatever, that's besides the point, I guess. But you look at the destruction of property and recognizing and also having to reconcile that far too often we as America, as like a capitalist society, has put value, the value of property over the value of like human beings and black lives and black bodies, right? So when you look at the destruction that happened

in the South Bronx and you look at what happened following that, right? Following the building of the Crosswalk Expressway and following landlords burning, literally burning down buildings, right? In order to recoup insurance and white flight and even a lot of black and Latinx individuals to kind of fend for themselves in the community. What you're seeing now, like with that displacement, I think, is a community that's decided to take action and take back some of those, take back some of that, not even just land, but that ownership. You know, like this moment, I think, directly coincides with that.

I think this moment directly coincides with whether you want to look at the Tulsa massacre, right, in Oklahoma, or if you want to look at MOVE in Philadelphia, or if you want to look at the watch riots, or any time that a community uprising has occurred. I had a friend compare this actually to the Arab uprising, which I thought was very interesting. I hadn't thought of it in that way. But the idea and very different than from a Ferguson where Ferguson, there was a lot of anger and justifiably so. And I think there's anger here. But for me, what I'm seeing is an anger that's not just palpable, but it's also coinciding with this need and want for real systemic change to happen

and concrete things that need to happen. Well, I think Ferguson was more about, we just want to hold police accountable, right? And we want body cams. And this is like, honestly, on some NWA shit, like fuck the police, like how are we destroying the system and rebuilding it in a way that creates equity

and makes equity not an option but mandatory? And when I look at my borough of the Bronx, there was a lot of, there was some looting, right? And then literally in that same week, the community came together, cleaned up the area, put up a GoFundMe that raised upwards, I think of up to like $40,000 to help those businesses that have been affected. And for me, that spoke volumes to like community deciding we don't need the powers that be to service and to help ourselves. And what I think we're seeing is kind of like the confluence of all those things, like the community recognizing we don't need your help. You haven't been helpful. And if you are going to engage, whether you're a white ally or an organization or government,

here's the guardrails and here are the rules. Like we're dictating the action. Whereas I think a lot of times beforehand, it was us being told what to do and having to maneuver through that space. Again, very similar to like when you look at episodes in the South Bronx where there was mass destruction and we didn't really have a say so and how the rebuilding effort was going to look. Now we're in control of all of those things. It's interesting, right, how these cycles tend to repeat themselves.

I think so many people also, they don't know that side of the history of the Bronx. You know, it's interesting to see the movie Muzzleless Brooklyn come out earlier this year where it like it shined the spotlight on. They didn't mention Robertbert moses as a character but the main character was him and what actually happened in in neighborhoods where it wasn't just like hey like we're making better for everyone it's like no actually yeah we're destroying it for some people who've been generations in the name of making it a lot better for you know like what we deem to be better like i'm reading color of law now and i forget the name of making it a lot better for what we deem to be better? I'm reading Color of Law now, and I forget the name of the article. When you look at it, I'm reading it, and how do you not connect the two?

How do you not see how obvious and how overt segregation has been continuously in America? And I think at this point, there are a lot of folks who are just choosing not to see. And I see it a lot on Twitter where you kind of go down the thread if you make the mistake of doing so. But you go down the thread and you'll see the trolls come out and arguing about, like, you know, whether it be affirmative action or like racism is over or it's like, you want to look at this Bubba Wallace situation with NASCAR. And it's like, well, a few things, you know, okay. So the FBI has never lied about anything ever. Sure. Um, and then also too, even if this wasn't what, what, what we feel like it was, right. Which is like essentially

someone hanging a noose in this driver's pit area. It still goes back to the fact that this is not a new instance of that, but I think it's interesting to see folks' response to it and almost like this fear of acknowledging the history of America and like how complicit we've been in this process. So like even something as simple as

building an expressway through the Bronx and having to tear down these buildings in order to do so and what that would mean for the community. To your point, it benefits some and it definitely doesn't benefit others. And we have a tendency, I think, as America to like look at who it benefits and not looking at and trying to avoid the race conversation behind that you know like it's very easy to make it about class which it also is but you know kimberly crenshaw when she talks about intersectionality it's exactly that like we can't just talk about one without in in leaving out the other parts of the conversation that are necessary to have in

order to get the totality of this of this moment especially, especially, you know? Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And, and it's, it's beyond simmering now. You're like, the pot is boiling and it's boiling over and, and it's like, what, where do we go from this now? I mean, so when you're growing up there as a kid, because your experience isn't necessary, let's have all these sort of like cerebral conversations about the history of racism and how we got, I don't know maybe in your home i wish but like but the lived experience that you're going through is like you know you're growing up in an area that feels perpetually not

safe that's you know and and granted like let's figure out who gets to define the word safe right for sure but you know fundamentally on the ground you're going up in a place where there's a lot of violence, there's a lot of dangers, there's a lot of drugs, a crack epidemic hits the Bronx and parts of downtown in a way that doesn't hit Midtown and other neighborhoods. For sure. For sure. And so you're like your lived day to day experience of this is just it's not these cerebral conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah well tell me what it is well i mean and i think that's such an interesting point because you i don't know you live you live in an environment and you have you don't see it for what it is when you're in it right like hindsight you know like you you, I grew up around drive-bys and like, you know, you grew up near hand-to-hand sales and it's part of your daily existence.

And granted, there was a lot of fun to be had growing up, you know, like two hand touch, open fire hydrants, tag and like in buildings, you know, we weren't supposed to be doing that, you know, just like being kids, being children. And as I grew older, right, I was able to like, and started reading more, you start having, and also having conversations with those that live outside of your community and recognizing what's normal for some is not normal for you to a certain degree. It puts in perspective, I think, even now what's happening. Because growing up, you don't really notice the disparity. I didn't really notice until high school.

You know, I go to LaGuardia, right, like the performing arts, the performing arts high school in New York City and in the U.S. And it's like that was the first time I'm having conversations, real conversations with people, with white friends. I had white friends in a way that maybe I had maybe one or two white friends throughout all of my schooling up until high school. And I can count them. They're like two people. Everybody else who was white in my life at the time was a power figure, a power authority, right? Whether it be a teacher, an officer, a fireman, right? Like officials. And so for me, it put a lot in perspective because I had friends who didn't grow up the way that I grew up. And I had friends and had white friends who were able to experience the world in a way that I never thought or imagined to be possible. You know, like prime example, I remember myself and two of my friends at the time, we were, we had left school. We had gotten out of school early, I think. And we, cause we had like drama rehearsal and like drama classes and they finished. And so we hopped on a train and headed

into Manhattan. That's something I'd never done. Like I, school was in Manhattan, but I went to school and went home. I was not the kid that kind of hung out and like went to different stores. Like I didn't do that, but we did that day. And we went to Jennifer Convertibles. To Jennifer Convertibles. And like, we just sitting on sofas and it was something I'd never done before.

And in my head, I'm like, yo, are we gonna get in trouble? Like they were so carefree about it. And for me, it was, at the time I didn't see it. It wasn't until later where I was like, wow, there's a freedom that they have that I've never experienced before. You know, like we're sitting on couches, opening Pepsi in the store. And in my head, I'm nervous. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. Are we going to get in trouble? And then afterwards we went to Columbus Circle and we were heading to Central Park. And like they took their shoes off and jumped in like the what you call it? The park. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the fountain. In barefoot.

And it was like seven o'clock at night and it is splashing like they're having a ball. And I'm like, no, I'm good. I'm not doing it. And I'm not doing it because the level of fear that I've had, that I had, and I think had been instilled in me, not just as a young adult who grew up in a Caribbean household, but I think as a Black young adult who's, this is whether whether we want to argue about whether it's by design or not. It's the reality of it. And for some, I think it's hard to imagine that reality because there's no empathy in that space for them. Because empathy will say, what what is that? Why is that experience different for you? And how can I better understand that? Well, I think the people that we meet and I think the same people who are like, I don't want to wear a mask. The same people that are like, I'm ready to go outside and I don't care about the well-being of others. I also think of the same people that are like, I don't see color or I don't understand what the big deal about racism is. And like, I don't get why they're looting and rioting.

And it's like, OK, you know, when the Eagles win the Superbowl and cars are being turned over and, you know what I'm saying, shit is being burned to the ground, there's a very different response. You know, when protesters stormed the Michigan Capitol with guns, it's a very different response than Black Panthers doing the same thing in California. And, you know, people, people will make excuses for that. And for me now, I can see it. Growing up, though, you don't notice it, I don't think, anyway, for me. And granted, I also didn't have, like, militant-ass parents who were like,

hey, you're going to be, you know, reading Kwame Tore after, you know, third period lunch or whatever. So I think there's also that. getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him.

We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because you grew up, I mean, effectively your mom was a single parent, like you said, and you're like Caribbean mom background. Your dad is kind of in and out but he's a vietnam veteran who is living with schizophrenia as as you would eventually learn and probably a bunch of other

stuff yeah so your experience of your experience is really more like growing up with a single mom and it sounds like like fear of your dad um but but him not really even being around i remember you wrote a line in a piece where you said something like, I wasn't scared of God. I was scared of my father. Yeah. Which says so much. Yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate you doing that digging, brother. But it was true. My father was a figure, you know, like in a scary figure for me. And again, right. Hindsight at the time, not knowing that a lot of my father's trauma was due to trauma he had suffered before Vietnam in his own home and how that was potentially probably showing up alongside the PTSD that he was suffering following the war. My mom tells a story of the first home that she owned before I was born over on Edison Avenue in the Bronx. And my father burnt it down because he thought it was a bunker, thought it was an enemy bunker. And my mom referenced the story very recently, actually, while I was home with her, about having to go, bringing me to go to the psych ward to see my

father. And she says these things in like a laissez-faire attitude. And I'm like, how do you not see like how traumatic that could have been for you? And I'm not going to say should have, because again, each experience we get to own for ourselves. But for me, it highlighted the destructive nature of my father that he really didn't have any control of. But I also think that that nature, and it's something I struggle with, I think my relationship is also, it's affected my writing in a way that's actually not hindered, but helped it. I think a lot of it is because I look just like my dad, man.

I have my other brother, Dwayne, and I, my blood brother, right? We have the same mother, same father. And granted, I have a sister from my father's side and I have my eldest brother from my mother's side. But my brother, Dwayne, and I, both from Charles and Linda. And when I look at Dwayne and I look at me, like, we look very similar, but I look like my father. I talk like my father. I walk like my father. I've been told I wear hats like him. I dress like him. The similarities are very stark. And for me, it's come home very

recently, especially amidst COVID and this movement, the opportunity that I've been given to live my life in a way that my father never did. my mom tells a story of like my dad. He had gotten a job not soon after coming home from the war where he was like an engineer and they had kept making him go to get coffee. And my father just quit. He just like quit one day because he's like, this is not what I came here to do. And pride, you know, and I hear that story now and I don't know how I would have responded had I heard that story maybe 10, 15 years ago. But for me now, it's like, what would I have done? You know, like, am I as powerful as my father was in that moment? I think the same, like, yes, I have to put food on the table. And like that stark contrast of like being a provider, but recognizing that he had pride and he believed that his worth was more than that and standing up for that and so for me now I think that's why I ride as hard

as I do man like the reason I write the way that I write is because my father didn't have the chance for the world to see him in that way or acknowledge his existence in that way or or encourage him my dad used to read the encyclopedia, you know, and I'll say that my father's still alive. My father surfaced from dementia and, you know, alongside all the other things. And so like Charles Lorenzo Daniels' story needs to be told.

And so I feel like I have the opportunity to do that in every single essay, every rhyme, every tweet, whatever the case might be. It's an opportunity for me to continue to live through him and for him in a way that America never gave him the chance to you know so like it's been this balance for me where it's recognizing the fear like my dad would whisper in my ear man and be like yo the CIA is coming to get us and like all types of just wild shit and I and I never I never it was scary but again right i didn't know i didn't have

context for what that meant to him and the fear he was living with you know we can have a whole i'm realizing that we could have a whole conversation about my dad and like my story like and how it's connected to his you know in that way yeah i mean it's really interesting also because you um in the context of of him you keep using the word opportunity like i have the opportunity to do this i have the opportunity to write a certain way the opportunity to tell his story through me um what i'm curious about is because that it feels like a very intentional frame as opportunity and not obligation. Man, please don't make me...

Yeah, you know, it's... Like, my dad used to read the encyclopedia. You know, like, he would underline lines in it. And I never really knew what that meant. And, you know, I used to read the dictionary, like, as a kid. Because, like, I just wanted to know more words. And this moment for me highlights, like when you look at the George Floyds of the world, like a father, a father who just doesn't have the opportunity to do any of these things anymore. And, you know, even the obligation of it to me is still an opportunity.

Because it's work. It is work. But I also think it's like divine work. It's purposeful work. It's impactful work. It's work that I'm very clear and being cognizant of that I've been put on this earth to do. You know, I've been telling people, man, this has been the busiest I've been ever, you know, outside of like pre-Ted Talk, post-Ted Talk, like this moment at hand has been the most I've been asked to show up in this way. And it's an opportunity for me because when I look at my dad and, you know,

my mom would brag about like how smart my father was and how he used to read all the time and all these things that no one would ever know. Nobody would ever know. And I get to do these things. Even with my mom, man. I'm first generation. My mom came to the States when she was, what, 20, 21, on a visa because this kind white woman gave her the opportunity to, and it's weird saying it, but it's how my mom sees it, opportunity. She gave her the opportunity to come to the States and clean her home. And that's what my mom did. And that's what

my mom did in order to gain citizenship here. And then she sent home, she sent back home from my brother who was throwing down home from my brother who was throwing down my eldest brother who was throwing down and he got the time and you know my mom worked at jacobi hospital man for like 30 years and i remember asking her like does she have any dreams she was like no i was like what how does that i can't even I can't even imagine me not dreaming. But her sacrifice, which I don't even know if she sees it as such, but like she was committed to working, to retiring and making sure her black boys were safe and fed and kept alive so that they could dream. You know, and that's wild to me that I get to have conversations with you and like these really cool, dope people and talk about decolonization and unpacking trauma. And my mom didn't get any of that shit. My dad definitely didn't get that. The reception of my father got coming from Vietnam and this job, it was wild. And if you were a Black serviceman,

forget about it. And this is the climate that my father came back to on top of having to deal with all the other things he was dealing with, like him not being sure if he ever killed somebody, like killed a child. Like that was one of his biggest fears. And I don't have to live with that. You know, I don't have to live with that burden. And, but because of that, I get to create, I get to reimagine a world in which my father is a hero instead of a victim, you know? And so that's why I write. Really, my goal is to continue to put my foot on the neck of America until my dad gets what he was owed. Because he didn't.

America owes my father a lot, and they didn't give it to him. And so my work is steeped in not just having the conversations, but creating actionable ways so that we as a society can also reflect and then do the work to heal so that like a Charles Lorenzo doesn't have to keep happening or George Floyd doesn't need to keep happening or Breonna Taylor doesn't need to keep happening for us to kind of reconcile, reconcile our history with what needs to happen now, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting how you've chosen, how you first reflect on your why like what's really

driving you what's unfolding inside of you inside of your heart inside of your mind that's leading you to this form of expression and you've also i mean you've been honing your skill you've been honing your ability it's almost like for this moment trying for a really dude for a really long time i mean because you you're writing as a little kid and and you're like you're the kid in your neighborhood right where you're kind of like the artsy kid in your neighborhood which i know you've talked about you know as like okay so that actually made it so it wasn't the easiest thing to be you when you were young, you know, and even at various times, you know, like throughout your life. Um, but especially then, because you were different.

Um, and yet the thing that it seems like you turn to knowing that it made you different, but also knowing that it was part of the way that you would find a way to be okay, given your life and your family and your environment. You've been building that into a craft over decades now that's sort of like honing the edge of the knife for this moment in time. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm glad we're not on camera so people can't see me feel almost getting misty-eyed. I think, first of all, thank you, Jonathan, because I think, yeah. I was going back to like an old tweet of mine. And it was like, you know, I'm Joel, a.k.a. Mad, right?

Because that used to be my rap name. And I make art to change the world. And that was very simply how I framed it. And that was like in 2013. And this is like when I'm I have maybe like a thousand Twitter followers right and which if you have a thousand Twitter followers it's great doesn't you know doesn't mean you're doesn't change your work but that's where I was at right and no IG followers because I wasn't on Instagram at the time and being in a place now where it's like I'm very

clear about what the purpose is and like it's using my creative practice to decolonize and dismantle systems. And recognizing that this moment and what you're speaking to is a direct reflection of that work. And the more I've been leaning into it, the more opportunity has shown itself for me to keep speaking about it. And, you know, I don't want to wax forward too much, but like, I think about repetition a lot. It was a fear I used to have of kind of talking about empathy and love and art and the space that we get to create for these things in order to essentially like lead a movement and feeling like I was saying it too often. And, you know, whether we're looking at comedy, whether we're looking at comedy whether we're looking at the bible right like repetition right like that's that's part of the process and for me

it's now become more apparent that I have to I've not had to even tone down the language but like up and up a notch really um because that's what the moment is calling for and not being afraid to do that. There used to be a level of apprehension I would have about leaning too heavily into my art. And now I'm very clear and adamant. Like, when I walk into a space, I'm like, hey, listen, I tell stories to Black people. This is what I do. Hope this doesn't, not even like, I hope it doesn't offend you.

I don't care if it offends anybody. Because white allies and persons of color who get it understand it without me having to explain it. And I don't mind explaining it to people but when we talk about Toni Morrison and and in conversations she would have about the white gaze surrounding her work and how she was avoiding that in her work and how her work wasn't made for that and me feeling very much in like Toni being my like top five dead or alive right you know like Toni Morrison morrison jay-z nods like those are my favorite um being in a space where i can i can live in that and go okay this is the moment that it feels very egotistical to say creative for me because that's not what it is but what i've been able to see is that this trauma, this grief, like people have lost jobs, homes, lives,

right, due to COVID and due to even what we're protesting and burning shit down for in the streets. But there's also been, again, like I bring this word back up, an opportunity, an opportunity to really do some deep diving and reflecting about who we are, not just as indation, but as individuals and how we each show up for this moment in our own way. And I'm very clear that my way is through art to like galvanize folks to continue to do the work while also having folks really dig deeper to look inside of themselves to see where's the work needed within in order to continue the momentum of this movement long after people leave Minneapolis, long after it becomes popular to post the hashtag or to tag someone in your IG stories to call their senator?

What is the real work that's going to carry us over the threshold so that liberation, again, is not an option but a mandatory for how we move forward? Yeah. And I mean, that's traditionally, right? You know, that is, there are people who play different roles whenever you have large scale transformation that's at hand. But central to that always is the story of where we are right now and then who is going to tell the story of where we're headed and what that looks like this is like the classic i mean that's one of the most legendary you know talks ever given you know classic i have a dream speech yeah yeah you know it was like that iterative line of like this is the vision that i see you know yeah and and it's people talk about the phenomenal oratory and things that went behind that but fundamentally it's like you're sitting in the seat of the storyteller at a moment in time

where the way that we choose to tell it the language that we use the moments that we focus on are so important to how people run with it and then mobilize around it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, like maybe you framed it so, so well, because I didn't, I don't think about it in that way, but that's absolutely accurate. You know, and, and I often wonder about, you know, I would love to sit down with like Nikki Giovanni, you know, and ask her like, what was she thinking about in the moments in time when like her and Amiri Baraka and Sonia Sanchez and Angela Davis and Tony are all like converging and meeting and talking and discussing the work? And did they see, you know, like what was ahead? You know, I'm an artist, but I'm also a strategist, you know, in that way. And because I'm very clear and like I think Buddhism has played a lot of role in that where I feel very centered, but also hyper aware of who I am, how I'm showing up and

what essentially will look like 10 years from that. Like I'm always thinking about legacy and not in a way where it's like contrived and I want to show up in this moment to be big and splashy so that the history books will write about me. But I'm very clear that I want history books to write about me in this moment. Like my work is that important to me and the work of the community is that important to me because it is how we shape the narrative, how I show up, how the storytellers of this moment of this world now show up, help to shape the narrative for like my daughters when they're growing up and like they're learning about, you know, I'm saying like what happened to George Floyd in this very specific moment of COVID and who gets to tell that story. And I don't think there's anything wrong with us saying, why not me? Why not now? Which is what I generally always encourage people to do. You know, I think, and it's something I wrote recently, like we're all agents of change in some way, shape or form, you know, like you giving a platform to myself and other creatives and

artists helps shape that narrative, helps shape the kind of stories we get to tell. Because then, you know, people listening receive the message and then they take that message with them to wherever they're going to go, whether it's the next protest, the next rally, their hospital bed, whatever the case might be. And so we're all transmitting these stories amongst each other and amongst ourselves. And so for me, it's imperative to ensure that I'm clear about the message I'm trying to put forward to the community. And a lot of that is about healing. You know what I'm saying? Like we tend to act as if healing and radical acts of love are not part of the movement, where essentially, in essence, they are the catalyst for the movement. You know, when you look at the Black

Panther Party, it's not about it. Yes. OK. It is about guns and like cool black jackets. And, you know, I'm saying cats going up to the Capitol and saying, you have the right to bear arms and, you know, like citing the Bill of Rights and then recognizing the amendments. But it's also about a free breakfast program. Right. Like really, which is like the pillar of what Huey was trying to do, him and Bobby. Like we're going to feed the community. We don't have to wait for outside agencies to come in. We don't have to wait for the government. We are going to feed the community with food,

but then also knowledge. We're going to teach these young Black kids how to show up for themselves and also the history that they're not getting in school. Like that is love. That is powerful. That is radical, you know? And so is powerful. That is radical, you know? And so, but that shapes the narrative, you know?

And for me, it's like, we can't talk about, we can't talk about Kwame. We can't talk about SNCC or CORE. We can't talk about any of these organizations without talking about love and the capacity of love to, like, change how we show up in the world and change how we view the world you know yeah no completely agree the apple watch series 10 is here it has the biggest display ever it's also the thinnest apple watch ever making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. You know, it's interesting. You wrote a piece recently.

The Black Imagination Revisited. That was quick, man. I just, it's interesting. You wrote a piece recently, The Black Imagination Revisited. That was quick, man. I just, oh, brother. Thank you, man. Thank you, man. I love that. I read it like three or four times. I was like, but, you know, so two thoughts.

One, it just speaks to the moment right now. It speaks to what we're talking about, right? Because it's a reimagining. It's not a reimagining of society's lens on black people it's it's a it's a it was like a call to action it felt like yeah to to black people like you said you write stories for black people it's like you saying call to action to them to say let's reimagine this ourselves yeah you know like let's let's let's step into a place of agency and rather than waiting for somebody else to reimagine what our future might or could be let's do it now let's only like let's actually own this which is which also speaks so much to like what you described as what happened in your neighborhood or was in your

mom's neighborhood you know like after the protest where the whole community just came together and said we're going to decide what this looks like yeah yeah that's that's it man that bruh that's that's it that work was inspired by um a good friend of mine dramel Bell, had told me to read Freedom Dreams by Dr. Robin D.G. Kelly. And she also told me to read Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler. And I'm not done reading either of those. But like those helped push forward for me because I had been thinking and ruminating about the imagination and Black imagination. You know, like my mom giving me space to imagine, you know, and how so often little Black girls and boys aren't given the space and the freedom

to just imagine and to play. Theater played a big part in that for me too. You know, I remember being in theater class junior year and Miss Pierce, we were going through this exercise and Miss Pierce was like, was telling us like embodying animal. And I think about it now and how I was being expressive, but not as expressive as I could be. Because you're still a teenager and you still want to look cool.

And you're still thinking about how other people, even though you're in your body, you're out of your body at that same moment where you're like, I don't want Anna to see me acting like a lion or like a tiger or a tigra, whatever I was trying to be at the time, where a 37-year-old me would fully embrace the opportunity to act like a tiger and embody that movement and that motion because I'm so not afraid of my imagination anymore and not living in that fear of, Stanennis and I often talk about the what if, right? What lives behind that and how we get to imagine, right, a circumstance. And Robin Kelly in Freedom Dream just talking about how do we imagine something that lives outside of the external circumstance we're faced with. So as opposed to saying how can we, which is what abolition really is about. It's not, it's right. It's saying, this is the system that's been created. Let's say if it didn't exist. I was having a conversation with my brother about this. It's

like abolition is about what if, okay, you're talking about police reform. I hear you. I get it. I'm with you, bro. I understand what you're saying. What if that didn't exist? Right? And then if we take away the normal response of, well, crime is going to go up and people are going to kill each other. OK, let's look at systemically why people kill each other, why people rob and steal from each other. And like, how do we solve for that? And then, oh, well, how do we solve for these other things? Like the idea of the black imagination is supposed to be let's get as radical as possible and not be in fear of that radicalism, where me, Joelle, before probably would have been. Like, Joelle, three years ago, would have been like, eh, I don't know. You know, and honestly, me now is like, yeah, this is it.

This is, let's take the doors off the hinges and let's reimagine everything. And not a reset, not a redo. And I think about it because my friend Shamel, her son, he brought up something to her because she kept using the word, I think, like, I forget what word, like dismantle. He's like, dismantle isn't the right word, mom. It's just destroy. Because when you destroy something, there's no rebuilding from what was, right? It's done. So you have to create anew.

And so it's about destroying the system and i think i think conservatives tend to think of destroying as fire and brimstone which also i think means a death to whiteness and whiteness not as a skin but as a culture and i think that scares the shit out of them but like we're not talking about that to a certain extent. You know, I mean, we might have to, but it's more about burning down the systems that have created and allowed the lack of equity in our communities. And how do we reimagine a world with our hearts, with our brains, with our spirits

that creates equity across the board so that we don't have to have conversations about misogyny, patriarchy, white supremacy, and privilege. We can all acknowledge all of the things in this live, not in like harmony and kumbaya, but maybe, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I hear that and I'm nodding along and I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, and then I'm also like, man,

a lot of people have worked on this for generations before us. Yeah, yeah. I remember having this conversation with Ruth King in conversation a couple of years back, generations before us yeah yeah i remember having this conversation with ruth king on uh in conversation a couple years back who is this incredible thinker and she has also been fiercely involved in the movement for generations for like six years and i remember asking her i was like you know like and this was before what's happening now this was a couple years ago but are you hopeful at

all and she's like i've seen this before right you know yeah but i'm having these conversations now and a lot of people are like this feels palpably different but i mean speaking to what you were just sharing which is the idea of not dismantling but basically like obliterating it yeah you know the um and then you referenced you know the arab spring um yeah which was about a decade ago now. And where, you know, it's interesting to me because I studied that pretty deeply. And then I studied a lot of the nonviolent revolution theory of sort of like the leading person who kind of wrote the handbook for all of these things that most people followed. And in reflection, most of that has all failed.

You know, there was a huge amount of disruption, a huge amount of tearing down, a huge amount of violence and death. And at the end of the day, most of it didn't land in change. And one of the things that I wonder about is something that he shared. I'm curious what you think about this, right? Is that he said on the theory side of like the thing that makes it work is not when you sort of like identify as the enemy like a structure that has to be torn down but rather when you create really strong clarity about the structures and the systems that need to exist in its place that will solve all the problems and you build those or you start the work of building them so that whether like that thing like in name still remains or is actually dismantled it doesn't matter anymore because all the power has left it because what

is created in its place is so much better okay wait who's that person's name because i need to like yeah yeah his name is gene sharp it was really fascinating because i'm looking at this and especially in your context right because you are the guy who's in the middle of this and like thinking fiercely about okay so what is my role as a storyteller in this moment in time how what is the message that we need to be rallying around yeah and um and just really understand okay so look it it's i think it's a really interesting moment to really be deconstructing what are we calling for? And what are we calling for people to almost create, like running behind in its place, to be there to draw people to, to say like, oh, this is clearly better. You know, I think that's such a good ass point, man, because healing feels like such a pie in the sky kind of airy solution to a thing right but when you look

at the truth and reconciliation committee that was created in south africa right you're talking about you're talking about reconciling literally reconciling truth and giving those who have been oppressed a chance to sit in front of their oppressors and say, this is what you have done. You are now being held accountable. My worry is that America is not there yet. Because until America can reconcile, oh, King Cotton essentially is what has created American capitalism. Oh, secession from the union was not, that wasn't the Civil War. It was about cattle, essentially like enslaved peoples and continuing to ensure that folks could make money during slavery.

And so we have to be able to say yes. If we can say yes to the Holocaust, if we can say yes to Japanese internment camps and reparations, and it's something I'm reading even more about. Like a lot of the reparations that were being asked of following reconstruction weren't necessarily even about just the monetary gain, but it was more about this is what is owed to us from just like own up to it. It's like if you're in a relationship with a really bad person

who's just not being accountable, but they keep beating you and then expect you to forget the fact that they've been beating you, they're still beating you, but they're not even admitting to the beating. You know, when a Mitch McConnell can say, slavery happened so long ago. And it's like, that is what needs to be healed. And I don't know, and I don't, my work and my practice is centered around not necessarily having to heal the hearts of those individuals. What I've been saying recently is like, it's not about changing a racist to an anti-racist, you know, it's just about those who are already anti-racist having bigger microphones is what I imagine. Because essentially the, none of this matters if we are not healing. I was having a conversation with someone on Twitter about this, a brother.

I said essentially healing is a prerequisite to our freedom. And him being like, you know, healing and our freedom are directly correlated. So actually I don't think you have to heal first in order to be free. And I'm like, we're talking about two different things. Because essentially the healing has to, like, yes, healing is consistently happening very much like awakening, but you have to be doing the work of the healing in order for us to see the fruits of that.

And if we're not doing that, if we're not holding ourselves accountable, if we're not recognizing the history and how that history continues to play itself over, whether we're looking at the theft of land from Columbus all the way down to, again, to Black Wall Street, if we're looking at the theft of land from Columbus all the way down to, again, to Black Wall Street, if we're not owning these truths and doing that work in parallel to the destruction of the systems that are keeping those truths as things that we push as narratives

in our textbooks and media and whatever the case might be, you know, this doesn't change, I don't think. And so the work, I mean, you know, a lot of what I think about is like, some of these old motherfuckers won't have to die. Like, they're going to have to leave, right? Because a lot of the work that's being done is being held up by folks who don't want to reconcile the truth of the past. And the more that we're creating room and space for conversation, for the people who recognize the trauma that is sitting with America and how we need to unpack that, very much the same way my father would have needed

to unpack his trauma with a therapist and being able to reconcile the violence he saw in his household and the violence he saw in Vietnam with the violence he was coming back to in America. Like having the space to do that without defensiveness, without having to feel the need to explain why slavery was needed or why all these things were needed. And just giving folks the opportunity to like heal and feel the pain of that. Until that happens, we don't get anywhere. And so I think that's why, for me, it's important that we discuss that in parallel to, you know, abolition work, in parallel

to some communities are going to have to do police reform. I think it's going to be different for a lot of different people in a lot of different cities and states. But I think if the focus is liberation for all people, then I think that lives as kind of the foundation for whatever we're going to build up after all this is said and done. Yeah. I mean, zooming the lens out a little bit also and getting more personal again. You know, we've had this conversation in the context of you, your upbringing, Black community in the U.S., but also more broadly. You know, like there's tremendous happening, things happening, you know, black, indigenous people of color, LGBTQIA. It feels like

the conversation is opening around all of this. And, you know, we're also both parents and we're both parents of daughters, you know, like dads of daughters. And so I think about this all the time, like in the context of what does it mean for my daughter? And I look at my daughter, I'm like, she is so much more awake and activist oriented and action oriented. That's why like when you're like, you know, like some of the old people are going to die. It's like, I know it's like, you're talking metaphorically, like they're going to have to reach an age where they're effectively, whether they're alive or not,

like they no longer have power over the outcomes of policy and systems. Right. And I'm inspired so deeply by the generation that's coming up behind us right now. And as a dad, like I'm curious how you, whether and how you have these conversations with your daughter, because I know you think deeply about them. I know you've written. I remember after shooting at the Pulse nightclub back in 2016, you wrote this piece that was so powerful. And part of it was also

kind of like you were speaking directly to your daughter Lila right yeah yeah for sure for sure and you know like you know Lila's gonna be five in November Wes is only four months old and so I think the contrast is like I look forward to being able to have the conversations with my daughters very similar to like how you're able to have the conversation with yours I think the work for me and, and it goes back to that essay, it really goes back to all my writing, I think, is to lay the foundation for the conversations to be had. And also my hope is to, as I continue to write, as I continue to speak out and engage in conversations and workshops or whatever the case might be to, by the time that

my daughters are of age, to really, whether we vote or to like express themselves in a way that really can create some level of change. And that could be as early as like six, you know what I'm saying? But for them to be able to do that, because some of my work has helped, or at least the work in general has helped create more space for them to do that, you know? Because again, I think about my mom, right? And I think about her work and her working as hard as she did, whether she knew it or not, was really giving me the opportunity and creating space for me to show up in the ways that I do now, you know, where I'm more financially successful than my mother was at my age. I'm also in a position where I get to do, I'm vocal and I get to do more because my mother did so much for me and did so much for me in a way that had nothing to do with the movement per se, you know, of like

my mom wasn't protesting out in the streets or any, any of that. But what my mom was doing, and it's something I try to speak to now is, and it's something you brought up earlier, like everyone has a role. And I think my mother's role was to feed and nurture a revolutionary. You know, I think her, like, and far too often we don't acknowledge the work of that. Like there's an interview where Kwame Torey is sitting with his mother.

It's featured in the Black Power mixtape. There's this Swedish media team is interviewing them. He's asking his mom questions about, I forget specifically what, but he's asking the questions in order to get to an answer. He's talking about his father. Now he had to work so hard. The reasons why he had to work so hard is he finally answered because he was a Black man. And it was him trying to showcase how much we as a community have to unpack in order to distill what, like that small grain of this is why my mother had to work so hard. And this is why,

you know, we had, we had like little lunch tickets when I was in elementary school and the green lunch ticket meant that you didn't make enough money. So you got free lunch, you know, like I was the kid who got free lunch because we didn't have, we didn't have enough, you know, and it speaks to the work that I get to do now so that my children get to have even more nuanced conversations and maybe even get to do more work or even don't have to, or their work is going to be different, you know, where it's maybe not having to decolonize systems, but it's more about a different cause that doesn't involve their bodies being on the line for it or their voices being on the line for it. And that's

really my hope, you know, through the work, like that we can have those conversations and hopefully maybe we won't have to have them potentially. Yeah. Right there with you. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle to you, my friend. So sitting here in this container, the good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to live a life worth fighting for. You know, I'm all the way into this, man. Like I'm very clear that I'm fighting. I'm fighting for my children's lives.

I'm fighting. I'm fighting for your daughter's life. I'm fighting for our lives in general. I feel like in a fight that I'm not afraid of anymore. And I think a fight that I'm fighting for our lives in general. I feel like in a fight that I'm not afraid of anymore. And I think a fight that I'm ready for in the good life embodies that because we're all fighting for something, you know, whether it be like fighting for a promotion, fighting to get that raise, fighting to get the love of your life, to notice you, whatever you're fucking fighting or flaring your arms for. But my fight is for freedom. It's a freedom of all people. And like a spiritual and physical freedom that transcends the bullshit that this America and this world kind of keeps trying to feed us. You know, I think that for me, that feels good.

Thank you. Thank you, man. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at

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It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.