Good Life Project - John Caglione, Jr. | Academy Award-Winning Makeup Artist

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

John Caglione, Jr. is an Academy Award and Emmy Award-Winning Makeup Artist. Obsessed with monster movies as a kid, he began studying makeup and special effects. A not-so-chance meeting with makeup legend, Dick Smith, turned him from a fan into a devotee of the craft. Graduating high-school, Smith then recommended John to the NBC Makeup Program where he ended up working with the original cast of "Saturday Night Live" for six years, before going out on his own. Having now built a decades-long career in film and TV, John's work includes "Quest For Fire", "Zelig", "Cotton Club", "Heat", "Dick Tracy" (for which he won the Oscar and British Academy Award). John also designed and applied Heath Ledger's 'Joker' character makeup in "The Dark Knight," and he's been Personal Makeup Artist to Al Pacino for 30 years. John's most current work with Al Pacino was "The Irishman" and "Hunters".You can find John Caglione, Jr. at:Website: https://www.johncaglionejr.net/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnny_cags/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today is John Caglione Jr. He's an Academy Award winning and Emmy Award winning makeup artist at 15 years old. When he's in high school, he started becoming really obsessed. Actually, the obsession started way earlier with movies and also sort of like monster movies and just how the craft of makeup, not just beauty makeup, but special effects makeup was done in this incredible way to transform people. He did this one incredible thing that led him to become mentored by one of the most legendary names in movie makeup and special effects, a guy named Dick Smith. And it was Dick Smith who then jump-started John's career by recommending him to the NBC makeup program in 1976,

where John would then end up honing his skills, working on game shows, soaps, and then for six years with the original cast of Saturday Night Live. And after that stint was done, he started going out on his own and started doing all of this work on movies like Quest for Fire, Zellig, Cotton Club, Heat, Dick Tracy. And he also designed and applied Heath Ledger's sort of legendary, really iconic Joker character makeup in The Dark Knight. He was nominated for an Oscar that year for Best Makeup, and he has been the personal makeup artist to Al Pacino for a solid 30 years and worked most recently with Al in The Irishman and Hunters. So excited to explore John's career, his interests, the art and craft of makeup,

and the different angles and the different paths that that actually encompasses. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. It's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

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Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You become interested in the world of makeup and effects. Did this start originally, though, with a fascination with movies or TV or film? Was there something behind that? Yeah, I think it's all that. It was just the environment at the time.

You know, this is like the late 60s and going into the early 70s and then the explosion of the 70s films like The Godfather. Right, and then The Exorcist and the Horror, right, Poltergeist. Yeah, and it started to grow certain types of makeup artists and special effects technicians. It required that, and that was the birth of that kind of a renaissance of that interest. Star Wars, but yeah, The Godfather and The Exorcist. And then it was kind of all around me growing up.

Yeah, so there was a magazine called Famous Monsters of Filmland Magazine. Oh, that's awesome. And that came out in the 60s. And this guy, this cool older guy, Forry J. Ackerman wrote it. And it had in its pages all the old Universal horror films. Like the Lon Chaney. The Lon Chaney and the Phantom of the Opera, you know, and the Bela Lugosi's.

Right. And then it also had pictures of the makeup artists who did the makeup, like Jack Pierce and the Westmores. And then that's where I discovered Dick Smith. And that just changed everything. Yeah. Tell me about Dick Smith because he was, I mean, seems like really the pioneer in that, in sort of like bridging the gap between what I think a lot of people called makeup and this special effects are actually, oh, this is something entirely different. Yeah. I mean, I've said in other interviews that he was kind of the Les Paul and Jimi Hendrix of makeup,

where he not only developed a certain sound and a look, a hyper-realism in makeup that didn't exist before, but he also created the new techniques and developed things and technologies beyond the art, his art, that people are still trying to strive for today. He's just a whole separate element. Today, people are still, even myself, are trying to go to that level. And I think he was a separate thing all to himself. Yeah. that level and i think he just was a separate thing all to himself yeah because i mean he was the guy that originally sort of like made the jump from a lot of sort of like the original really the

older the golden age or like heart flakes it was sort of like one big chunk would get slapped onto a person's face and he was like okay so now what if we split into two or three pieces and let the facial expression actually come through yeah he developed the multi-piece prosthetics where if you did an old age makeup on an actor, it would be a mask and it would not move properly. So he developed a system where he could cut the clay sculpture up in sections and make separate pieces and put them all together and fit. And they're doing that today. His thing was foam latex back in those days, making foam latex prosthetics. But now it's the same process,

but it's silicone prosthetics that overlap and fit. It's easier to apply and it makes it more flexible. Yeah. So, yeah, he's the granddaddy of design and art. So as a kid coming up outside of Albany, New York, who's interested in horror flicks, how does that name drop into your world? I saw him in the pages of Famous Monsters. Okay. And I'm from upstate New York, and I think that Dick Smith lives in Hollywood.

He's a big Hollywood makeup guy. And so The Exorcist had just come out, and I had been tracking Dick Smith for a while, a few years. And The Exorcist came out, and that just blew my mind. And my mother happened to have a gossip magazine called Rona Barrett, the Rona Barrett Gossip Magazine. And in that magazine was the address for the Linda Blair fan club in Hollywood at Warner Brothers. For those who don't know, Linda Blair was in the exercise. She was the possessed Reagan in the movie. And so, yeah, so I figured maybe if I write a letter to this fan club, it may get to Dick Smith somehow.

You know, I'm a kid. I'm like 13 years old. You're just winging it. Yeah, I just have no clue. And so I wrote a letter with questions and my phone number. And I drew, I think I drew, yeah, I drew a caricature of Dick Smith on the envelope. So it would stand out, Dick Smith, the exorcist in block letters. And I send it.

And a couple of weeks later, like three or four weeks later, I'm actually in like playing football in the street with my buddies. And my mother yells, Johnny Dick Smith's on the phone. And so, you know, I get this, I can't believe it,

but I rented the phone and I'm like, hello. And your mom knew who this was and how like, Oh yeah. Yeah. She, you know how I've been. He was like, you know, he mom knew who this was and how like. Oh yeah, yeah. She, you know, how I've been. He was like, you know.

Like the idol. Yeah, he was like the Steve or Yvonne to me. Right. He's like the incredible. I got, he actually called me on the phone and that started a correspondence with him. He said to me, Johnny, send me some questions in a letter with a cassette tape

and I'll answer all your questions. So I would send him the, send me some questions in a letter with a cassette tape, and I'll answer all your questions. So I would send them, he'd give me his address. He actually lived in Larchmont, New York. So it wasn't actually that far away. He wasn't in Hollywood. I was upstate New York, and he was just outside, just north of Manhattan. So I sent them the letter and tapes, and he would answer all my questions and then go on and talk about how he did uh the bullet hits in the godfather how he you know did the bullet wounds how he slit fenucci's throat and godfathered he would actually expound on and inspire and uh and i've got a few of those tapes and that started a whole relationship with dick smith so he would actually

he would record his answers on the audio tape and send it back to you. And send them back to me. Man, those tapes. Yeah. Yeah. And then from there, I mean, just to show this incredible man's generosity, he would send me actual prosthetics for movies.

Like he would send me the foam rubber pieces from Little Big Man that he used on Dustin Hoffman to age Dustin Hoffman. And I would get a manila envelope in the mail with a cassette tape and these pieces, these prosthetics that were sculpted. So I would have a sense of his sculpture and his design of an actual prosthetic. Just amazing.

Yeah, what a gift. Just amazing. I mean, so he effectively becomes your mentor from afar. Yeah. You had kind of a father figure in a sense too. Tell me more about that. Well, you know, at the time my mom and dad were splitting up and it was a kind of crazy thing. And, you know, I was like cleaning floors in the hospital at night because, you know because in those days when your dad split,

or in our circumstance, he disappeared. So I had to fake my age and get a job mopping floors at night. And so then along comes Dick Smith and this whole influence. And the guy kind of actually saved my life at that time, beyond makeup. And he really took me in yeah he took me in just when i needed it i don't know if this is accurate or not but it because i know he in his younger life he went he went to yale that's right thinking he was gonna eventually be studying medicine and become a dentist that's right but ended up he was a pre-med student somehow getting exposed to makeup and special effects and then working in the the drama department there yeah

he found a book paint powder and makeup in the bookstore at yale and he just picked up this book and he started to as a lark he says do these different makeups and characters in the 40s and then he i think he actually went to the war drafted, and then came out and they were starting this new thing called television. And so he kept pounding the pavement trying to get in, and he finally got into NBC. And he was the first makeup artist in television. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. So him taking an interest in you, it was not just the fact that he took an interest in you and guided you and was kind to you, but timing was a huge part of this because you were going through this same window where he kind of fell into your life at the same moment when your dad fell out of your life.

And so now I understand why he played a bigger role than just a mentor. Oh, yeah, no doubt about it. Just opening up to me and helping me. And then beyond that, he would recommend me for little, when he saw the progress, he would recommend me for little jobs. While I was still cleaning the floors in the hospital, going through high school. I remember one of the first jobs was, there was a wig maker in New York named Bob Kelly. He was the biggest wig maker in the 60s and 70s, maybe 50s, 60s, 70s in New York. And he also started a cosmetic business.

And Dick was very tied into Bob Kelly. And Bob Kelly wanted to start this new branch of his cosmetic business called Funky Faces, where he would want to make these different chins and rubber noses and put them in packages and sell them for Halloween. And was looking for a sculptor and a young kid to sculpt these pieces and make rubber mass production molds. Long story short, Dick says, oh, I know this kid is upstate New York, this guy Johnny. And I'm going to recommend him. I think he's ready for this. And at that time, I think I was about short dick says oh i know this kid is upstate new york this guy johnny and you know i'm gonna recommend him i think i think he's ready for this and at that time i think i was about 15 and i i

could dick called me and said this is going to happen and you're going to go down and meet bob kelly here in new york and and i said well dick this is my first job i mean i'm doing high school plays i you know i don't know and i. And I said, Dick, what do I charge Bob Kelly? And Dick goes, well, Bob is such an honorable man that just tell him you don't know what to charge. And I'm sure he'll pay you more than you would ever ask for. And so I went, came to New York and I met Bob Kelly and I told him the truth. I don't know what to charge. And he said, hold on. And he was kind of this ex-Marine, World War II vet kind of guy.

He wore a guinea t-shirt, you know, chomped on a cigar. This really great guy, Bob Kelly. And he came back with a check that, you know, at the time my father was gone. So this check saved me and my family for like six months. And it was like, wow, I can do what I like and I can make good money. And so that started the process of moving and trying to become a, you know, get into the business. Yeah. For real. Was college ever something that you considered or did you feel like it just, you were so

locked into something that you knew you were doing and you actually, you saw a path to developing a career that it was just like, no, this is it. Yeah. I think it just caught me early, the idea of being a makeup artist and kind of trying to follow the pattern of Dick Smith, where you're working with an actor in a makeup artist and kind of trying to follow the pattern of Dick Smith, where you're working with an actor in a makeup chair with your kit. And that just,

that just caught me early. And I, so I didn't really think my friends were going to college and I was just about to graduate from high school. But then I got the job at NBC on Saturday Night Live. And so I was, it was a thought to think about high school, but before I graduated, I actually went down and auditioned for the apprenticeship program,

another thing that I got through Dick Smith, who recommended me to NBC. And so I knew before I graduated my senior year that I had a job in the makeup department at NBC in New York so I so college was out and NBC was my college that's where I was going to go yeah and also I guess at that point right you're the middle kid in a family with now as a single mom raising five kids yeah so the fact that you actually have a job and it's a job doing something you're generally excited about. Exactly. You're thinking practically. Yeah. Yeah. You know, let's just survive here and

it's just being presented to me and it's what I really enjoy doing. So it just seemed the natural flow to just move that way. It's funny because in hindsight, so you landed NBC 76-ish, right? Wow, yeah. SNL starts in 75, right? So you drop in sort of like the second season-ish. And when we think about Saturday Night Live now, it's like, what's this iconic show with these cast that, and then this was a moonshot you know this was like it was an

experiment sitting there and everyone thinking you're insane dude cast man yeah that original cast so that was the crew you were working with it's it was it's gilda radner belushi akroyd like bill murray like just this the most iconic legendary cast probably in the history of the show. Little do we know, right? Yeah. But you're there in the beginning before anyone really realizes what's going on. Not at all. It's just, you know, I'm dropping into a live television show just trying to keep my head above water.

That's really what it is. Like I said, I'm doing high school plays the year before in Troy High School. And now I'm on this'm on this live TV show. And what am I going to do? It's like crazy. But that was a great experience. What was it? I was actually taking the bus down in 75.

Yeah, 75, I had the job nbc wanted me to kind of see the show so i would take the bus the trailways bus down to new york from albany and i would just kind of observe the the dress rehearsal and uh and see how it was put together so that when I came in 76, I kind of have an idea of the mechanics of the show. And so, I mean, the very first thing I remember ever was when I walked on the stage and during the dress rehearsals, and I could still see Andy Kaufman doing the record player thing, you know, that thing. And just saying, where am I?

What is this? And, you know, thank you, God, for this. When did it dawn on you that you had stepped into something that was truly game-changing? Yeah, I mean, at NBC? Yeah. I mean, was it right away? Or was it something like, kind of like, was there a moment where you're just like, this is the moment of the time?

This is the big time. Yeah, the first day, the first time I stepped on the set. Yeah, this is, there's no going back from this now. You know, this is changing everything in my life. And then seeing like blue sheen akroyd becoming stars and animal house and all those things happening and you're you're witnessing that bloom and and you're real i i i realized how lucky i was you know how this was miraculous to me yeah what's it like for you behind the scenes?

What, what's, I'm curious what the culture is with what you were doing and between you and the actors, what's the dynamic like? I guess, you know, like, and I actually kind of want to drop into that question over time too, in different cultures, but at that moment in time, with that group of players, what was it like for you? Yeah, it was just, it was controlled chaos is what I can remember from it. It was just, it must have been what it is for live theater. But every week it's changing. It's a different show. It's hard to put your finger on it. It was just a wonderful thing to see those guys create things and characters.

And I think that's where I first learned about developing characters and how actors approach characters. And in those days, there was no budget for makeup and hair. It was like a college play. Now they do these big elaborate makeups and they have a big lab at NBC and it's incredible what they're doing now. But in those days, it was just, you brought your makeup kit, you stuck a mustache on or a ball cap, and the rest was performance. So, yeah, it was my college of makeup knowledge. And not just that show, but I was on staff at NBC, so I would do the soaps and the game shows and everything else that came into it.

You'd make an occasional conehead or you'd do something like that. But NBC was a great experience because i got to develop beauty makeup and cat you know besides character makeup and prosthetic makeup yeah i mean i'm curious about that also because especially so you're bouncing from character makeup prosthetic makeup um on the soaps which i'm guessing is more beauty makeup. Are those, because it's sort of like the, the purpose of makeup is different in those different settings. And it feels like in this day and age, and I can be totally off, but I'm curious that there it's become a super specialized industry. Like you do this and it's sort of like fairly narrow, but it sounds like what you're

describing is you kind of just got trained in everything. I'm in the Dick Smith vein, or at least I'd like to try to, I've always tried to, or my career has taken me in that direction where you're a makeup artist. And that means beauty, character, sculpture, and design. And yeah, that's, and it's interesting doing beauty makeup and learning it at NBC and then years later just doing films with actresses. Beauty makeup has informed my prosthetic makeups. And it really, you realize that it all is kind of, you kind of need to know the beauty makeup and the character makeup. Because millimeters are miles in my craft. And that's not just in sculpture and prosthetics it's in beauty makeup too you know and knowing what's important to that particular face

in beauty and character and in prosthetics there's some people that would get an old age makeup let's say and they will think oh i'll do this great old age. It'll be all these wrinkles. It'll be, you know, my sculpture. And the art of it to me is to just know what that face requires and for that character and nothing more and nothing less. And that's, that's the beauty. Like if you look at Dick's body, I keep going back to Dick Smith, but he had an innate, I don't know if it's supernatural gift to know exactly what that particular character needs. And that particular face for the character, the actor's playing. And not too many people have that. Yeah, I mean, it's like you're an artist, you're a painter, but the canvas isn't a canvas.

The canvas is a person's face, an entire head, for some things. And it's not static. It's moving, it's changing constantly. And you're not just designing for them, you're designing for a particular effect or impression within the context of this bigger story that's being told. The fabric of the film. Right.

And the characters in it. Like a good example for me, even still, I know it's going back into the 70s, and it's Dick Smith again, but if you look at The Exorcist, you see everyone thinks, oh, the Linda Blair makeup, this demonic makeup is just, you know, it's unbelievable. smith again but if you look at the exorcist yeah you see everyone thinks oh the linda blair makeup this demonic makeup is just you know it's it's unbelievable but there's another great makeup

that tells a great story visually and it's the old father marin and i don't a lot of people don't realize that that his whole face is rubber that max von cita was only like, I think he was 47 when he did that part. And there's two makeups in one film that are just brilliant and don't overcrowd the story. They fit within the fabric of the story. And those are the amazing makeups to me. Yeah, and it's almost like you're describing to a certain sensitivity. Right, and it's like there's two extremes to a certain extent.

There's one where it's so clearly over the top that you know this is not the way that the person looks walking down the street. And then there's the other where it's almost, it's the exact, it so alters the way that a person appears, but it's so natural to both their face and what would be appropriate to sort of like that age or whatever the context is that it's almost like you're not even aware of the fact that it's there. It's an invisible. Yeah. Yeah. It flies under the radar. Which is, I mean, that's got to be sort of like one of the things that you just, I mean, to get to a point where it's almost like you're so extraordinary that the makeup ceases to be the thing that people are looking at.

It just vanishes. And it's almost like that's a sign of your craft. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's invisible. The audience completely believes in the story and the character and i think that is really what what the makeup artist should be doing it shouldn't be grandstanding it should be

what that character needs and what helps tell the story and that just transcends clay and paint. And there's only a few that I've had the pleasure of knowing, like Dick Smith. They just get that, almost like a good actor's performance. And it becomes, I know it gets a little heady here, but it becomes beyond the technical. You just have an intuitive feeling about something, and you're able to translate it. Yeah. It must be like music. I mean, it sounds a lot like it. There's guitar players, and then there's guitar players that can make you feel something.

People who go somewhere and take you with them, yeah. Yeah, and it's not only that, but it's technique. Yeah, but there's a vibration coming from it that on some other level you're getting, but you're not even aware of it. And I think that's just an art, you know, good art. I mean, part of that art also, I would imagine, is the ability to cultivate trust and intimacy with the person that you're working with. I mean, that's got to be, I'm so curious about your experience around that and how that plays into what you do when you're working with someone. Yeah. Well, you know, I always, like where I work a lot with Al Pacino, there's a certain amount of trust there. I don't know why that is or how that works

over the years. But the first thing I do with al is i try to just kind of get into his how he's feeling about a character you know and try to know as much about you know his approach to the character and then we just start playing around with stuff. It really just comes down to, it comes down to almost like a wardrobe fitting, trying different jackets and tie. Once you get into the zone of the character through his help, you start to, it's like a process of elimination. What is required for him to believe visually what he's playing and then uh and to not not to detract from his performance in any way to help him enhance the performance and i think those are the beautiful makeups

that i've seen over the years yeah where they're not upstaging a performance there you're just gilding the lily in in a sense. You're just, it's just perfect for the actor to create his character and nothing more. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. The work that you've done with Pacino over the years, and I know you've worked with him in a lot of different movies, I guess probably most recently The Irishman, right? Yeah, most recently The Hunters, this TV series we just did. Got it, got it. It was interesting because I recently saw The Irishman,

and I was actually marveling at the fact how there were were like there were people in that movie where you kind of you saw them over these it was flipping between big windows of time right and and I was actually marveling I was like I had no idea that you had actually worked on that movie and how effectively I was able to see like how believably they would be able to just jump between different generations, the same person appearing to be completely different ages. And I guess that's part of where my curiosity around the intimacy comes from, because especially when you're working with somebody who's very high profile, who has a certain image and likes to appear a certain way. Well, you're an image maker is what you're doing here. You're a co-creator of an image.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then they've got to trust you, especially if you're working with them, to craft an image based on their real face. Maybe you make changes to it of what they, as not just the role that they're playing, but as a human being, may look like 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years down the road. Yeah. I mean. Or the other way. Right. Yeah.

I mean, that. It's a lot of trust there. It's a lot of trust. Because in a way, you're showing the public what this person might look like, you know, 30 years older. Yeah. And for people who are so protective of the brand and the image that they've crafted at that moment in time, that is a huge leap of trust. Yeah, it really is.

And it's, they are relaxed enough in their own minds and souls to do it. I mean, that's really an incredible thing, you know, to not really think about protecting your image so much, to take a chance and alter it and see how it goes, you know? But on The Irishman, there wasn't much that I really did. It was really Pablo Hellman and Industrial Light and Magic that really, they really did the work on that picture and developed a new system, new cameras. And it was just, I was just, my job was not to be too geeked out on the set every day and to see all these great actors with Scorsese.

I'm always trying not to lose, not to become too jaded in my industry. And to try to, you know, stay fresh. And to really just enjoy it as much as possible. And The Irishman was that. It was just an amazing thing to witness. Yeah. It will probably never happen again. We kind of took a big leap in time.

I want to fill in a little bit more. So you end up at NBC for five, six, seven years, something like that, right? Yeah, about six years. And then start working. You start doing movies, but you're kind of overlapping, right? So you're keeping your salary job, and then you would go on set for a chunk of time to work on a movie. Yeah, a little bit. Little things here and there.

Through Dick Smith recommendations. Got kind of launched my entire career at this man. He really did television and film. But I'm also raising a family at the time, too. You know, just getting married and having kids. And, yeah, so NBC. And then NBC was really good because if there wasn't Saturday Night Live, they would let me go and do a movie because they could replace me with other because they didn't need their prosthetics guy for SNL. So in that time, I did some work with Woody Allen on Zellig and I did these different character makeups on Woody Allen.

And then I did a couple of horror movies in that time. And then NBC was like, listen, you're getting a lot of freelance work. Maybe it's time you flew the coop. And so then I just dove into more freelance work. But it's not just diving into more freelance work, because like you just said, you're married, you're creating a family, you're coming from a background where as a teen, your parents' marriage falls apart and that causes a lot of financial stress for the family. You're doing the thing you love and you've got like a full-time salary job. And the movie stuff is not that. so like that's really the decision to say like and at that time there was no netflix or new media it was either you know you worked in at nbc

or you waited for a movie like a paramount picture to happen there was nothing else right so this this is a little it was a little scary this is like there was some right um so what's that like for you sort of saying like this is the logical next step for It was a little scary. There was some droughts in those years. So what's that like for you? Sort of saying like, this is the logical next step for me. I love doing it. I want to make sure that I'm there for my family. Tell me a little bit about how you navigate sort of like the conversation. And also relatively newly married.

Was the conversation just sort of like with your partner? My wife Helen yeah it's just I always wondered about Helen because either she's the best actress I've ever known because she never really worried about the droughts or what was going to happen next

so she's an actor. We'll be fine we'll be okay don't worry we're going to be fine yeah she was really pretty I always wondered if she had millions stashed or stocks somewhere, you know, because she Secret trust fund. Yeah. She just believed in me, you know, and that we would be okay.

And so that helped a lot. That took a lot of heat off me, you know, and, but you still want to provide and, you know, make a living. Like I said, we've, there were some droughts and,s, but we kept it together and we made it work. And I've been married 38 years now. How did you guys meet? I actually met her on Saturday Night Live. Oh, no kidding.

I used to get comp tickets to the show through the writers, Franken and Davis, who I became good friends with at that time, and some of the other writers. and they would give me comp tickets, the show and Mike on a double date with my cousin who would, they were all in a wedding party and they came to Saturday night live and got them seats. And it was actually the show where we made up John Belushi to look like Liz Taylor choking on a chicken bone.

And Helen, my wife, was in the front row getting chicken spit on herself. And so, you know, that led to getting to know her. And I wasn't even thinking, I mean, I was making no money, you know, coming from the situation growing up and sending, I used to send my paycheck home to my mom, you know, because it was, I'm not crying, but it was,

it was a lot of things going on. And, and then I met Helen and, and we started dating and, and just figured she's, let's, let's try it. Let's,

let's see how it goes. And, but she never really worried about what's going to happen next. And it all worked out somehow. It really did. In this crazy business. Is she still acting in any way? She's not an actress at all.

I'm just saying she's the best actress I've ever known. Actually, when I met her, I worked at NBC on 6th Avenue. And she worked for Morgan Stanley. She was a stockbroker. Got it. And so maybe she had stocks I don't even know about, but you know, we started dating and she would come to NBC and we would have dinner and we would start a dating and, and no, she's not at all in the business.

She's a stock, she's the brains. I call her the B of H, that's the bank of Helen. You know, I just, she takes care of that stuff and it's worked out. Yeah. It's all worked out. Because you're on TV, NBC is in New York and it's changed a lot in the last five or 10 years. But for a lot of years, New York was TV and LA was film. Yeah. Was there sort of like an East Coast, West Coast thing going on in terms of like, you don't play in all of them, you don't play in New York.

You know this whole thing, don't you yeah yeah there was there was a there and they it's loosened up there's two separate unions there's one in hollywood and there's one in the there's a few unions now the unions have worked it out they've got all these different territories but at that time it was hollywood in new york yes and there was, you couldn't go east, west of the Mississippi River was the territory. And so, yeah, back then in the late 70s, early 80s, not many people were able to make that transition to go to the West Coast and do a film there and come to the East Coast. I think the only one was Dick Smith. He was able to get his union card in Hollywood and be bi-coastal. So yeah, there was that. And so you were pretty much based to New York productions. And then things started to change a little bit. More studios developed and people were able to move around a little bit more and get work. So you jump into, it sounds like for a chunk of time, you really said, okay, so I'm going to see what I can make happen, predominantly in film.

You end up working with some of the people you talk about. Well, you know, to stop you, I really haven't had a choice in any of it. Tell me more. It's like you just take what you can. Bob Kelly, going back to Kelly, one thing he told me was, you don't turn anything down in any of it. Tell me more. It's like, you just take what you can. Bob Kelly, going back to Kelly, one thing he told me was, you don't turn anything down in this business

but the bed sheets. You just take what you can get. And then really, that's really, or very early on in my career, that's the way it goes. We're technicians. So if the job comes up, you grab it, you say, oh, I can do that. And then you just figure out how to do it, you know, and that's how it went.

Do you still see yourself as just a technician? Because from the outside looking in, I mean, you're at a point where I get it in the early days, right? But you've been in this for a while now. You're a quote known entity. You've won academy award you're you are by every definition you know like a extraordinarily crafted person like you were a master in your i'm trying to be yeah but there's something like kind of like that's radiating from me it's like now i still have the technician like i see myself in a certain way. I guess I do. You know, it's, thank you.

That's very nice to hear. I appreciate you saying that. But I'm beginning to see that I'm pretty good. You know, I'm pretty good. And I enjoy even the basic skills that I have today, like even mixing a bowl of plaster right or taking a mold of someone's face. I'm prideful of those things that i've mastered now and so uh yeah that's kind of where i am now but you know you want to keep a level head and and keep it real too and uh but yeah no i have there's there's things that i have

mastered and that i'm proud of and it took many many years to develop. So, yeah. Yeah. One of the things I think became a really big public thing was, so in the last year, everybody's talking about the recent incarnation of the Joker. Yeah. Right? With Joaquin Phoenix. But the version of the movie that came before that with Heath Ledger was also pretty iconic. You were at the center of that whole thing. Tell me how that unfolds.

You know, to tell you the truth, Jonathan, I'm not really sure how that unfolded. I can only guess that I did a film years before that called Insomnia, and Christopher Nolan directed it, and Wally Pfister was DP and and so and I just did Al Pacino's makeup and he had some scars that I put on and it was really not a big deal and I met Chris there and it was great he was really nice nice and then years later I was finishing up a film and I got a call in the airport in New Mexico and he it was Thomas, Chris Nolan's wife, who's the producer. And they said, we're doing this movie, The Dark Knight. Are you going to be in California? I said,

as a matter of fact, we're going to finish filming in California. I'll be there. And so long story short, they set up a meeting and I went to Warner Brothers and I met Heath. He was in a rough costume fitting and Chris and Emma. And we met, it was like a 15 minute meeting at Warner Brothers. And I, I came away from it thinking, well, you know, I don't know if I, that went well. You know, I just, and they called me the next day and said, oh good, we want to, you know, start doing stuff and tests. And that's basically how it started. Yeah, I mean, the makeup that you did on his face was, it was extraordinary. Well, his performance is just so extraordinary.

Yeah. Just amazing. I was just lucky. When you think, when you're sitting down with him, right, and you're developing this character, how do you even begin to come up with, okay, so this is what we're going to do? Is it divine inspiration? There's some of that, I think. I think there's just that anyway.

But that's another story. But there's always that. Reading the script, it's an organic thing. Batman does not have superpowers. These people are not like Marvel comic book characters. These are real people. So one thing that Chris said is this has to be plausible. This has to be a guy, a psychopath who does his own makeup and can wear it for days or forget about it or could even be on drugs and not even realize

that he's wearing makeup so that that sets the wheels in motion in a design early on my designs were very deliberate like a makeup artist would do it they were very clean and sharp line almost like the kind of like the joker the the approach they took with uh joaquin phoenix very painted and clown-like and uh that didn't fit that vision and so it had to be very degraded and broken down which goes against everything you know a trained makeup artist is supposed you know, a trained makeup artist, you know, you want clean lines. And so it was, like I've said, the perfection in that makeup was imperfection. It had to be broken down and degraded. And that came through makeup tests with Heath. They would fly me to London and we would start just playing around

and then hitting on certain things. Like he would be laughing in the chair and I would accidentally have painted over his crow's feet, you know, the smile lines. And we get these creases and he'd be like, Oh, that looks great.

Like we do it. And it just kind of me and him and Chris Nolan brought in these Francis Bacon paintings, these books on these very blurred images, Francis Bacon. And, and it all just kind of became a hodgepodge of ideas until it finally became what it became.

Yeah. I've heard it said that the music, the soundtrack in some movies becomes literally like another character in the movie. Right. Do you have a sense for, and not all the time, but in certain moments in certain movies, in certain characters,

that the makeup also almost rises to the level of becoming a character? Yeah. I mean, in my experience, rarely. I mean,

like Dick Tracy, you know, Chester Gould designed those beautiful drawings. So it was just an interpretation of a line drawing that was brilliant and worked for years.

But in my experience, in my career, it's only happened a few times, and I'm grateful for that. And one of those times was with Heath on The Dark Knight, and it's pretty amazing. When you work with somebody like that, you develop a relationship with them. And again, even though it may know maybe fleeting there is a short intense intimacy there is that has to be there right here like six inches to almost a foot away you're the closest thing besides maybe a kissing scene with

another actor you're that yeah it's pretty intimate yeah and and just physically and and often for hours longer than they're even with the other actors in the cast. Yeah. When you're doing something like that, and you're with Heath in this example, and then soon after the movie, he ends up passing. How did you experience that? Honestly, I cried. I just, it was, besides Al, he's the only actor I've ever really kind of on that level connected to. I mean, I would get hugs every morning and every night, you know, and it was, it almost felt like you were working with someone beyond the business in a sense so it really uh that that blindsided me

it took me a little time to to shake that off you know um yeah that that was uh uh that was difficult time you know yeah and he was great you know we would have these little parties little rap parties because we would shoot in l in London and we were shot in Chicago. And they'd have these parties. And Keith and I always managed to dance together at these things. And, you know, you just have all these great, great memories that are just beyond the work. And that doesn't happen very often. So, you know, those are special things to me. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. I mean, also the, beyond that and beyond what happened with Heath, I guess the fundamental nature of working on a film versus on an ongoing series is this thing where there's like a family that forms temporarily. You get fiercely close for this short window of time. You spend like so much time,

like more than you would ever spend with a friend outside of there, like in this environment. And then it's like, you cut at the end of it and everyone disbands and they're off to their next project. And do you feel that sort of sense of transition or loss or, because you're part of that, you're part of that crew. And then it's like, when everyone's done, you're done too. That's right.

Yeah, you do you there is a sense of uh that you know it's like a breakup unless it's such a not such a good experience that you're looking you're looking forward to man this should have ended a month ago when's the wrap you know but for the most part yeah I've been lucky in that sense that I've worked with some really cool people and technicians and people around me. And even makeup and hair teams, those are the people that you're most connected to, the other makeup and hair people in the makeup trailer or in the makeup room. And when that vibe is incredible, that's a tough thing to say goodbye to. You want that to continue, too, besides the actors and the directors, and that's all incredible. But just in that group, that's always tough to say goodbye to those people. You want to do it again and again. When you think about the um the craft side

it's breaking up of a band yeah i mean sounds like it really is man you know you're with this group and you're you're all in at four o'clock in the morning then the actors come in but you you and the band the other hair and makeup people the team team, are getting ready for the principal cast to come in. And you form a bond there. When it's working and it's clicking, that's a tough thing to say goodbye to sometimes. It's tough. Do you end up working with the same people?

I try. I try now. You have your favorite. I do. I try to wiggle my way and with the producers to try to get some people that i really enjoy working with and the producers and the really great ones that i've been lucky to work with they want a happy teepee because that's where the actor's environment begins it's in there and they want the most creative and uh and a good

vibe and good juju you know in the trailer that's important when you're working on your craft how do you because you've been in this for decades now right um you've seen a lot of years in the industry but also just on an individual level as somebody who cares about the craft somebody who cared about the craft long before you were even in the industry side of it. And you get so deep into it where you sort of become one of the leading players in that space. How do you keep...

I'll say it from my chair. Okay. But when you've been doing it for a long time... Maybe the most leading player sitting in this chair. In that chair. We'll settle for a long time. Maybe the most leading player sitting in this chair. In that chair. We'll settle for that for now. Do you do anything to proactively continue to push the envelope on your capabilities? Sure you do.

Sure. Yeah, you want to stay up on everything. Because it's a competition, really. I mean, it comes down to being on your game. So, you know, for me, if it's prosthetics, it's sculpture and design, and that's something that I really always key on. It's like keeping your fingers on the guitar. You just want to stay on it.

And so that's something that I always have my nose in the glamour magazines, looking at new products and new trends. And yeah, I mean, if you want to stay in the business, you better keep your hands on it. So yeah, always. Plus, I love it. I mean, I still do. After all these years, I still, it's sick.

But one of the producers, I'm going to do this TV series next. And we're talking about night shoots. And I'm crazy. I love night shoots. Most people hate night shoots. And I'm crazy. I love night shoots. Most people hate night shoots. I mean, I did the movie Heat years ago. And Heat is like 75% nights. I loved it.

You know, it's like, so, yeah, kind of an unorthodox animal. I just still, I enjoy the craft and I enjoy the process of making films and television shows yeah I can't believe I'm doing it for a living I honestly don't I can't believe it it seems like a lot is um there's the pendulum is swinging back to cinematic TV mm-hmm these days also where it's for I feel like for a while the best storytelling you would look to the big screens right and the last the last decade or so, the pendulum has swing back. Not that the storytelling on big screens is bad now, but just there's, you can take your time and let a story unfold over many more hours, you know. That's right.

On TV now and in a way that where, because very often it's not broadcast TV, but it's paid TV. So you can do things that you could never do on traditional channels. The Irishman. Yeah. Right. Came out simultaneously pretty much. Yeah. I mean, it came out in a theater for the Academy. Right.

So it qualified. It made its qualifications, but it's on Netflix. It was built for Netflix. And that's what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Do you find yourself working a lot more? Because I know there was a chunk of time where it was largely film.

Are you sliding back into sort of like the serialized TV fictions and things now? Yeah. And I'm grateful for it. I mean, it's just the new media has created a lot of work for a lot of people, a lot of technicians. And like we said earlier, back in the 70s, you would wait for a film to come into New York, like Annie or some musical. There was no new media. So it was either television, game shows,

or every once in a while a film would drift into New York. And so it's great for our business. It really is. It's terrific. I'm working a lot now, which is incredible. Which is a beautiful thing. So my other curiosity around that though is, while the opportunities for that have now, I think, expanded dramatically at the same time, like you referenced in The Irishman, yes, there was makeup on set and at the same time ILM,

Industrial Light and Magic, which for those who don't know is this extraordinary, basically digital effects studio, was also integrally involved in that. Curious, what's happening with this sort of, what you do is a very physical, manual, hands-on, artistic thing with this intimate thing between you and another person. Is that being intruded on or in any way replaced by what's happening digitally these days? I think it's somewhat being intruded on. It can't help it. I mean, where makeup ends, you need digital help. I mean, there's no way around that, but I think for, I'd like, at least I'd like to think for most actors, they need to look in the mirror. They need to see a physical thing happening for them. I don't, I could be wrong, but I don't see it, us fading away anytime soon.

I think there'll always be the need for that. I think what affected a kind of the makeup industry is the creatures, like the big creature suits and those things. Now they do that more post and digital. But I see that they're starting to return back to creature suits and monster suits and that kind of thing, which is not my bag. My career is more of a makeup guy in a trailer with an actor. So I think that they're returning to more guys in rubber suits again because the technology there has advanced so much.

The things they're able to do is amazing. So at least I'd like to think we'll be replaced. We'll see. But you made such an interesting point also about the fact that it's, it's not just what, what technology is capable of making us see on screen, but it's what it's the, it's the effect that the,

the effect on an actor of having spent, you know, like three, four or five hours in a chair with you and seeing and feeling, like tangibly feeling a physical transformation in their own body, and how that then affects their performance, what they actually give.

That's gotta be big. That's gotta be huge. Well, I mean, look, it worked for De Niro in Raging Bull. He put on weight. He transformed physically, and it's there you can't act that I mean it's there's the physical presence happening right before your eyes so yeah I think that will always be a place for us somewhere along the line

you know when you look at what you're sort of you wake up in the morning you're excited to do Dick Smith drops into your life in your early teens. Very often. Do you think about whether you play a role in sort of like turning back and playing a mentorship position to others? Yeah, I hope to think that that's the case. I have some fans that follow me on Instagram. I don't at all compare myself to Dick Smith. That's a whole separate.

Yeah, just in terms of the role, in terms of the idea of you reach a certain place where you're like, you know what? There's something in me that wants to in some way teach or not to teach. That I would love to do. Yeah, I was just talking to my daughter coming in today that down the road i would love to teach i would love to you know have a uh a theater course in makeup and wig design and and you know theater craft and yeah that's that's something i would really love to do someday maybe you know teach and get involved with young people and just keep it moving along. You try to, you know,

pay it forward like Dick Smith. I mean, Dick Smith launched a lot of careers, not just mine. There's Rick Baker and a lot of heavyweights in the industry that if it wasn't for him, there would be none of us. So yeah,

that's, that's always in the back of my head. Absolutely. Wow. So it feels like a good place for us to start to come full circle too. I'm curious though, just sitting here, having worked with so many different people,

having worked in so many different formats, is there something that you still look out and say, like, I haven't done that yet, and I really would love to make that happen? Yeah, I guess, I mean, makeup-wise? Yeah, just in terms of you, yeah, doing the thing you do. Yeah, I always fade back to Dick, and aging makeups are always, I think, the tallest order.

And to do something successfully, that would be, he did F. Mary Abraham and Amadeus. And that is just, you know, so that might be something maybe down the road to try to perfect. And tip my hat to Dick Smith. So as we sit in this container of the Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To be honest, faithful to my family, to believe in a higher power. It's something I've always tried to always acknowledge every day, and to be grateful just for sitting in this room with you right now, you know. That's the real

thing, everything else seems to be. At this age, I'm 62 now, just a bunch of something else really, but yeah, just to connect and to be with you here, Jonathan, that's important. That's a good life. It really important. That's a good life. It really is. That's the real deal. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening.

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