Good Life Project - John Rzeznik | Goo Goo Dolls to Good Good Life [Best Of]

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

How does a founding member of one of the biggest bands of the last few decades create such incredible music, enjoyed by hundreds of millions of people, while living a life that is privately falling apart? And what would make him do the work to start to put all the pieces back together, to produce not just iconic music, but also a grounded, fulfilling life? That’s where we’re going in today’s Best Of conversation with the founding member, frontman and guitarist for iconic band, the Goo Goo Dolls, John Rzeznik. Born and raised in Buffalo, NY, John is a legend in the world of music, with 19 top-ten singles, including mega-hits like Iris (which spent 12 months on the Billboard charts), Name, Black Balloon and countless others. And, like so many who turned to music at a young age as both a way to cope with discord and a form of expression, he’s lived a life of extraordinary artistry and contribution, and along with that, a certain amount of darkness and struggle that for many years found him turning to alcohol as a way to get through each day. Until it all fell apart, and he had to make a decision. One he keeps making every day. Now, sober, a devoted dad and husband, he's telling a new story with his life and music, and taking the giant, global community of Goo Goo Doll fans along for the journey. And, as you’ll hear, he’s headed into the studio to create something that is truly representative not just of this moment in time, but also of how his lens on life, music, and creativity have evolved.You can find John at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Joan Osborne about her incredible life in music and activism.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book Sparked | My New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.Wealthfront: Diversify your investing with an automated portfolio that can help maximize your returns and minimize your taxes. There are already nearly half a million people using Wealthfront to save more, earn more, and build long-term wealth. So why wait? Earn 1.4% on your cash today. Visit wealthfront.com/GOODLIFE to get started. This no-brainer good news has been a paid endorsement from Wealthfront. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

After you write your first hit song, everyone around you is applauding. Oh my God, that's amazing. That's amazing. It's as if you won the lottery and everyone is going, oh my God, John, you won the lottery. Do it again. And I'm like, So how does the founding member of one of the biggest bands of the last few decades

create such incredible music enjoyed literally by hundreds of millions of people around the world while living a life that is privately falling apart? And what would make him stop in his tracks, turn everything around, do the work to start putting all the pieces back together to produce not just iconic music, but also a grounded, fulfilling life. That's where we're going in today's best of conversation with the founding member, front man, and guitarist for the iconic band, the Goo Goo Dolls, John Resnick. Born and raised in Buffalo, New York, John is a legend in the world of music with 19 top 10 singles, including mega hits like Iris, which spent 12 months on the Billboard charts,

Name, Black Balloon, and countless others. And like so many who turn to music at a young age as both a way to cope with discord and a form of expression, he's lived a life of extraordinary artistry and contribution. And along with that, a certain amount of darkness and struggle that for many years found him turning to alcohol as a way to get through each day until it all fell apart. And he had to make a decision, one that he made and continues to make every single day. Now sober, a devoted dad and husband, he's telling a new story with his life in music and taking the giant global community of Goo Goo Dolls fans along for the

journey. And as you'll hear, he's been in the studio creating something that is truly representative, not just of this moment in time, but also of how his own personal lens on life and music and creativity have evolved. So excited to share this best of conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

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The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. It was fun reading that little bit that you shared uh just uh in info with us before that you've been geeking out a bit on dalton trumbo and sort of like the blacklist era stuff yeah um it was funny because i when i read that dalton trumbo's his book johnny got his gun i read i think i read in high school yeah and it blew my mind it

absolutely sort of like shattered me in these really weird ways and it's never left me yeah no it's really it's yeah that's that's that's a heavy heavy book and the film too is strange yeah to me i was like i saw the film and i'm like why do i feel so uneasy this is really strange but but i um my favorite thing about dalton trumbo is um just how beautifully he uses words like you know and i've i've booked by him it's out of print but you can still find him online of course it's called additional dialogue and so it's this big book of letters that he wrote to all kinds of people and like whenever i'm trying to find something if i have to write like a quote or something for whatever

or somebody wants a blurb for this i always go to that book and I'll just read a few of his letters because the way he uses language and, and, you know, you steal little bits of what Trumbo said, you know? Yeah. It's very cool. Such an eloquent character. Yeah. And, and I mean, what he went through, you know, the, the whole, the blacklist era, we had Ellen Harper on the podcast a little while back, Ben Harper's mom, but she's also this kind

of icon in the folk music space. And her parents started out the Claremont Folk Music Center, which became like, you know, this hub where everyone was hanging out. But originally they started out in New England and her dad was a school teacher, but early in his life, he was very public about being a member of the communist party and it caught up with them. And like Trumbo and so many of that day, he got blacklisted and he couldn't find a job teaching anywhere. So he started working on old instruments and that was like the gateway into that whole world for them. Cause he just, he couldn't find work, you know,

for a long time doing what he wanted to do it's really a crazy window in our country i think i mean it's really it was just so bizarre because it was such a it was just like taking democracy and just smashing its face against the wall you know know, just to gain some political power. And like, but I was so, I, he's, Trump is an inspiration to me because he took a bad situation and he, I mean, he did what he had to do to feed his kids. And he, you know, he came out on top. And what really amazed me too, because I'm a Kirk Douglas fan, but I never, I have so much more respect for him because he was like, no, you could put Trumbo's name on the movie, on Spartacus. And wow. persecution and still generate so many scripts and stories and just write these,

this, these brilliant letters to people. People should read letters. There's gotta be more great books. I'm sure there's a million great books of letters that people have collected. Yeah. There's, um,

I actually want to say the name of the book is called The Book of Letters. It's written by Maria Popova, who has this longstanding website called Brain Pickens. And she created this massive digest of all of these letters written by all these amazing writers over the years. But I agree. I think there's something about letters that we've moved away from email text everything is sort of like short form not deep there's something also about i'm curious how you feel about this about the physical act of writing not typing on a keyboard but literally just sitting i never do that oh no kidding so tell me more about that i mean i write emails and all that nonsense on the search for things on the internet.

But when I'm writing songs or if I really, I make lists. I'm a big list maker and I can't do it in my phone because it's just not tangible. Like if I have a to-do list, you know, I have to go buy salt for the driveway and you know make sure you get milk oh oh yeah finish the bridge to that song you know just things like that i need them on paper because i can because i just fold up it has to be yellow legal paper now i'm getting into how like neurotic i am uh which is kind of strange but but my yellow legal pad and pencil on the paper, fold it, put it in my pocket. And I'm so much more efficient with that than I am with having a little bell ring on my phone. I just, it's not for me. I think it's, I think that has something to do with my age, you know, because, because

I mean, I was around when you could buy a Mac book, 150, I think it was called the 150. I had one. It was like, I mean, it's just, it's like, I don't, it almost looks like a, like a piece of steampunk art now, you know, compared to everything else. Yeah. It's like, I don't, it almost looks like a, like a piece of steampunk art now, you know, compared to everything else. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. I mean, when you're, when you're working on songs too, is it, is it all by hand on paper as well? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Gotta be. Gotta be. And, you know, big stacks of books of quotations and, and thesauruses, rhyming dictionaries, just stuff like that. There's this one online rhyming dictionary that I love, but just going to places like that. But yeah, it's got to be on paper. And every album, all the lyrics and all the potential lyrics and everything wind up in one of those art folios, you know, this big fake leather things, you know,

and it's just stuffed with scraps of paper and napkins and post-it notes and legal pads. Yeah. And that's the home for every album, you know, once it's done. Yeah. That's amazing. I feel like the output is just different you know and actually there's research that shows that when you're when especially in the when you're in a creative state that what comes out when you write it you know physically by hand it's different than if you type it sort of activates your brain differently you go to different places well because you're you're creating mean, you have these built-in neural pathways between your brain, your thought, then the part of your brain that physically can make it come out your hand and put it down on a piece of paper.

And I think it does. I think I always find myself getting more inspiration and good stuff out of, out of physically doing it the old way. You know, I mean, once again, I'm so old. I went, I went to Catholic school for nine years and, um, we took, um, penmanship classes. We had, we had to do penmanship. So it's like when, when I see somebody who has beautiful handwriting, I'm just blown away by it. College destroyed my handwriting. You know, I mean, I kind of joke around about, here, let me sign that prescription for you and see if you can get anything for it.

You know, because my handwriting, it looks like a seismograph during an earthquake. Yeah, somehow I ended up in the same place as you. We're the same age. So I had that same training. And it all kind of went away over the years. But I'm a writer also. And I've really been itching to get back to actually more of a physical process of creation. I was talking to actually two writers, Suleika Jawad and Neil Gaiman. They both write longhand and they use fountain pens. Wow. And one of the reasons is because if you stop writing with a fountain pen for too long, it starts to clog. So it forces you to keep writing.

Like you can't just pause. It's like you have to channel whatever's in your head out onto the page or else it gets all gunky. And because of that, like that really gentle time pressure, it's almost like they feel like it changes the creative process and the output for them. Yeah. Wow. That's really cool. Yeah. I have to get a fountain pen because if I had my way, it'd take me nine years to make one album.

But it's interesting that you say that because this new album that I'm working on, it's very loose. I'm locking out a recording studio for about five months. So I'm going to actually do a lot of the writing in the studio. No kidding. Yeah. And I think that that kind of, you know, I got the budget for the album and I'm like, let's blow it all. And so I don't want to be overly prepared when I go in because I'm interested to see what the interaction between the musicians is going to be like. And I'm just going to produce this myself, you know, or I'll probably co-produce with a couple other guys in the band and that. But there are ways to make records.

There's a different methodology. One is you go in and you get your drums all perfect. That's when you don't have a lot of money. You got to go in and you do drums for like three days. You got all the drums for your album. But then it becomes this very sort of assembly line type thing, you know? And a lot of producers and engineers are very, very, they're addicted to editing now. Now, because everything has to be so precisely on the grid yeah it's like everything

it's syncopation boom boom boom boom just and i'm like no no we'll start with a click and we're gonna play like a band because i was i was listening to a lot of live recordings of us and then i was listening to our studio albums and i was just like, the energy on the live stuff is way better. It's more aggressive and it's just got more teeth and it's really visceral. So I want to try to capture what the band is actually performing. And I don't want a producer coming in

and chopping it to bits and, you know, trying to like make it radio friendly. Yeah. I'm just not interested in it anymore. You know, it's interesting. I feel like everything has been so engineered these days and, you know, every voice is auto tuned, every beat is, you know, like dropped into a perfect syncopation. But I feel like as human beings, there's something in us that yearns for like, we want to hear when you're slightly ahead of the beat and slightly behind. We want to hear when somebody's voice is cracking or slightly off.

Oh, so there's a human being there. And we want to hear when people are just going into their own vibe. And I feel like when that's edited out, which it is a lot these days. It is. Okay, so you get, quote, perfection, but you lose what music is about fundamentally. humanity you know and i'm guilty of it too you know i'm guilty of it too we all fell victim to when everything went digital we were like wow the sky's the limit and then all of a sudden the other thing the other thing just jumping back to doing the album what what i want to do with this album is limit the amount of tracks that we have because now it's not uncommon to have a digital audio session that's like 130 tracks. And it's like, that's absurd.

I remember the old Tascam 4 track in the bedroom. Yeah, you know, and then you bounce it down and there was a vibe to that, you know. But, you know, kind of limiting your track count limiting your options i i just think that the digital production thing it had to happen and in in the good side the the upside to it is it it's like now you can get programs that are free or practically free i mean people are making records on logic and garage band and cubase or whatever and um you don't need the twenty thousand dollar pro tools rig with the you know six computers chained together and just you know it's but i think that the technology is leading the creation

of the art rather than the creation of the art pushing technology forward. I think it flipped when we went digital. And it's like you almost get caught up in the tyranny of choice. It's just like, there's so many options. What do I do? So in a sort of, I don't know what it would be, a contrary sort of way of looking at it. I'm just like, yeah, you got three or four different compressors there. It's all wonky studio stuff.

But what I'm trying to do is just make it more vital. I mean, I'm getting older and I just, when you're a musician and you do this, I've been doing this since I was 19. And it's weird because I never said no to anything because you get this thought in your head, well, this could be the last time you ever get up on stage or this could be the last time you ever get up in front of the camera. So don't say no. This might be the last time you ever get up on stage, or this could be the last time you ever get up in front of the camera. So don't say no. This might be the last dollar you ever earned doing this. So I don't say no very much. But now I've started to a little bit. Not say no, but be a little more selective about what I want to do.

And this whole anxiety about, you know, I had to change my metrics of what success is because it was always like, okay, did we hit the top 20 on the chart? That was one of those things. this whole anxiety about, you know, I had to change my metrics of what success is because it was always like, okay, did we hit the top 20 on the chart? That was one of those things. And I admit it, you know, I mean, cause I've had hits and I have not had hits and it's really nice to have hits, you know, it's like, it's really nice to have a hit song. It's fun, but it's interesting. But so we're going to, we're going to sort of limit it. And there's one example that I would like to tell everybody about. If you want to hear the most amazing song that is so out of time and so out of key, go back and listen to the Rolling Stones' Street Fight.

Oh my God, I can't believe you said that because I was just going to say, I mean, not necessarily that song, but I remember hearing some old live studio sessions from the Stones when they were putting songs together. Oh yeah. And it was, I mean, massively collaborative. And I mean, at the end of the day, they were really working to create amazing stuff, but also they were less concerned about perfection. They were more concerned about feel. It was all about the feel and the sway. And humans, when they move, they sway. And you're really feeling it. You see that in people who are having religious experiences or in flow at a concert or something, you know, it's just, and it's interesting to see that because you're trying to get into this. You're trying to tap into some sort of primal part of people, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that the idea of sway, because when you're, you know, so part of the aspiration is like, okay, so let's create something where we can try and

bring that energy to everybody who listens to this. But at the same time, you're creating originally in the studio. And so it's almost like you and the musicians who you're in session with, you feeling that, like you feeling this way becomes the signal that, oh, like, I think we're getting it. I think we're going there. Yeah. And what it's going to entail is, and Robbie, the bass player, and a drummer, just hanging out in the studio and just jamming and just making noise and trying to capture it on some kind of a recorder and sort of building it from there you know because that's something that we

used to do when we were kids because it was all really very very diy like our whole scene was so you know and um you know we would just play for hours i would come in with an idea and we would play it and play it and play it and then i, Oh, wait a second. I just thought of something. Let's go up to the minor here and then down there. And then, and then it starts to build and then the drum patterns evolve and everything evolves. And then you actually learn the song, you know, and that feel is just, I think it's just, it sounds fresh again. Because it is P I just believe that people are fatigued from technology. Yeah.

I'm right there with you. I believe that also. I'm really excited to see what comes out of those sessions. Five months is a luxurious time also. I mean. That's a great way to put it. I got a luxury problem. You gotta love that. are you gonna are you

recording to uh tape or to um digital because that's another really interesting creative constraint right there yeah well it's interesting was we did that christmas record which i know it's a christmas record and people are like yeah it's cheesy and i'm duh, like Pat Monahan is a friend. And he said, it's supposed to be cheesy. It's a Christmas record, you know? And he's such a light man. That guy is just, he's just his outlook on life and his ability to just make people feel great, you know? So I wanted to make that Christmas record. I wanted to do it. And part of it is because I have a four-year-old daughter. And it doesn't look cool to do it, but I don't care. microphones like every musician and so i've gotten this really bad habit and collection of um i can basically roll up anywhere with you know half a dozen road cases and make a record anywhere i want you know and i'm mixing a small mixing consoles i chain them together. Uh, lots of old compressors and microphones and reverbs and things like that.

But anyway, um, I didn't want to be one of those guys, you know, because it's been so long since I recorded to tape. And when we recorded to tape and then mixed it through a very, very, it's probably one of the rarest mixing consoles in the world.

And it's at a studio called East West in Los Angeles. And it's a thing called a Trident A-range. It's just this big purple thing. It's amazing. And it's just all this ancient technology that's just based on, you know, I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy. And then we mixed it to tape and it was just, but we simultaneously put the,

the two track onto the digital as well as the analog. And I was just like, Oh, I hate this. I'm one of those guys. Now I, Oh, the tape does sound better. It does sound better. And then we got the vinyl, the pressing of the vinyl and the CD. And we were going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, listening. I'm just like, the vinyl does sound better.

I can't believe this. You know, it's coming. You know, like at some point, at some point in the next couple of months, you're going to open your back door and be like, hey, you kids get out of my yard. I know, man. I'm like, I know, I know.

I, you know you know yeah pretty much something i turned i some every once in a while i will catch myself being an old man you know like really being an old man like you know i'll get out of a chair and i'll hike my pants back up you know with my thumbs yeah i go on i'm like oh my god you know, and I go on and I'm like, oh my God, you know. That's not a bad thing though, you know? I mean, it's, cause you've lived, you've had this interesting story, right? You know, and you're at a moment right now where it feels like, I want to touch back down into that in a really good place, you know, and the journey that got you there brought

you through some really turbulent times. Yeah. You know, I mean, I know you came up in Buffalo. Four older sisters from what I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just me and the dog. We're the only guys in the house and we're both sitting there going, what the hell is going on?

You know, but yeah, it was rowdy. I mean, I still feel more comfortable with women than men just like in general because i grew up in that situation and i you know i still talk to most of my sisters almost every day you know i mean i'll talk to one of them almost every day you know because over the last 10 years mean, they've been such a big help to me, you know, like emotionally and that. Settling a lot of old business that I didn't have a lot of recollection of, you know. I was lucky that I had people who were older than me to talk to me about those things. Yeah.

I mean, it's nice to be that close also. I know you lost your mom and your dad when you're sort of like in your mid-teens. Yeah. My dad when I was 15, my mom when I was 16. Yeah. Did they effectively sort of like become surrogate parents for you in a lot of ways? Or were you at an age where you're kind of on your own at that point? I kind of was, I kind of, I was pretty disenchanted with the neighborhood

that I grew up in, you know. I got a lot of crap from people. How so? Well, it was just very, it was just really strange. It was strange. It was like my family, my sisters are incredibly strong women, always were, you know, and they still are now.

And, you know, we weren't part of the neighborhood. Like we weren't part of that culture anymore. You know, my sister had an African-American boyfriend, you know, and in 1981, that was, oh my God, that's crazy. So we got a lot of crap from people about that. And it's just like, that's so weird. But it did. It was weird. So my life was made a little difficult by some of the neighborhood thugs.

And I was anxious to get out of there. It was like, it was October and it's just really rainy, cold Buffalo fall, you know? And then I just remember feeling like I couldn't get warm when my mom died, no matter how many blankets I put on myself, I couldn't get warm. But then I said, no, man, you have no choice. You have to move on. I mean, I was 16. I was like, what am I going to do? So my sisters helped me out and I got my own place and I didn't have a lot of money. And I did some things that I'm not exactly proud of, you know, but now it's legal in 35 states. They put kids like me out of business, but, you know, it was an adventure. And I moved into the neighborhood near one of the universities in Buffalo.

I just started meeting all these characters, you know, they were older than me. And I met them and I had a small group of musician friends you know and we would just play and play and play and we were constantly, it was very incestuous everybody was sort of, he played with him that night and we all went to this way and it was just, you know, we were all experimenting

with different kinds of music and stuff none of them went to the school that I went to I went to a vocational training school to be a plumber and I really should have went to art school, but I didn't. And I'm happy that I got my diploma in plumbing. I really am. I'm very proud of that. It's an amazing, I would have to go back to school from the beginning again, but just the fact that I can fix little things around the house is awesome to me. And I think it's therapeutic. It helps you stay grounded. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting also, right? Because I think a lot of people look at plumbing as like, well, it's a particular profession that does a

particular type of thing, but it's actually, it's a trade. It's a craft. It is a true, I mean, especially I remember spending summers and like building houses and renovating and stuff like that. And it is a true, I mean, some of the plumbers who were on location with, there were two artists. Oh yeah. It would blow my mind. It's like complex problem solving. And when you look at the creation, like if you pulled what they created out of a house or a structure and just put it in a gallery somewhere, people would be like, that is insanely cool. Yes.

It's very cool. And you know what's beautiful about it? It's gravity. It's all just gravity. And it's like, that amazes me. Like, yes, of course, there's a ton of technology involved now and everything's computerized in that. But a basic plumbing system is just based on gravity and pressure. And it's beautiful in its simplicity.

But the mathematics that you have to sit and study is crazy. I mean, you can't be stupid and be a plumber. That's, you know. Yeah, it's amazing. And it is crazy. I mean, you can't be stupid and be a plumber. That's, you know, that it's amazing. And it is amazing. And, but, you know, our, our society went through this, like, you know, this 30 or 40 year period where it was just like, oh, you got to go to college. You got to go to college. You got to go to college.

And a lot of my friends who wound up in the building trades have done better than people who, you know, went and got master's degrees. No offense to anybody who wants to go to college, but I think that the building trades, that guy Mike Rowe, the dirty jobs guy, he's very into that. And I agree with them because it's a way for someone with a high school diploma and some training and some smarts to get into an upper middle-class position. And that's not easy these days. Yeah. I mean, we've definitely gone through this window where knowledge work was sort of elevated to say like, well, the only legitimate work is knowledge work. And the only reason somebody wouldn't be doing that is because they don't have it in them. So they have to default to these other things. It's like, no, actually, if you read this book, you'd probably love it. It's called

Shop Classes Soulcraft. This guy who was like, I think he went to MIT from what I remember. He was doing a think tank type of thing. And he's like, this isn't doing it for me. He ends up going to some small town. I think it was New Hampshire or something like that. Finds this grizzled guy who could listen to vintage motorcycles and just by listening know exactly what was wrong with them. And starts to study and becomes his student effectively, and then just gives up this whole complex high-flying knowledge type of world to just hunker down and work on these old bikes. And it's like the happiest person on the planet.

And I think we definitely, we devalue that in a way. But when we do, I think we really, not only do we label people as not good enough when they're extraordinary people, but also we stop ourselves from going back to that physical interaction, physical creation space that I think so many of us miss. I agree. I mean, there is so much creative power that goes into designing a home, building a home, putting a plumbing system into a building, just, you know, a solar panel. I mean, you know, putting solar panels up, you know, and just, it's amazing because they're beautiful pieces of art at some stage of its creation. It's on a drawing table and it's beautiful. And I studied mechanical drawing,

you know, drafting and that kind of thing. And it's beautiful. Just getting, having the tools to get the perspective on things correctly and following a formula for this many inches equals it's just it's it's crazy and you have to do doing cutaway views of like the inside of a wall and like and uh it was very technical drawing it's just it's it's exciting like when i i just remember this one drawing that we had of an oil refinery. And it was a cutaway view. And just staring at it and just being blown away. Like that took so much creativity. I mean, maybe from a different part of the brain, but as much creativity, you know, as writing, you know, a symphony or whatever.

I mean, and that's what I was thinking as you're just sharing that is, you know know i wonder if you have any sense that the fact that you actually went and and you study plumbing and and you study mechanical drawing has any influence in the way that you view the process the structure the the expressive side of of music of songwriting of putting together yeah things and vice versa. Like, does the songwriting, does the musicality actually then affect the way you think about form and structure and sort of like physical spaces? Yeah. I mean, it's all interrelated. In my mind, I work off on tangents all the time, which is a bit of a handicap, but yeah, you know, I mean, growing up and learning those skills, you know, it definitely, it, it, it has an influence in a way because

I allow myself to, you know, get on my artist's chair, you know, and like play and wait for the muse and you know, and, and it's great when she comes, but she doesn't always come, you know and and it's great when she comes but she doesn't always come you know then you got to get down and and and you got to roll up your sleeves and start start swinging with a hammer and there are different points i mean i did i did a song for a disney movie i think it was like 20 years ago already it was a movie Treasure Planet. I wrote two songs for the film. So I learned, they brought me into the project when it was still like in pencil sketches. And they started talking about these characters. This is huge team of people, dozens of people.

And I've never seen people work so harmoniously in my life. And there's a certain period of time where you don't judge, don't judge. Let it all just come out. Dare to suck. Dare to suck. You got to go there. You got to go there. But at some point in time, it's like somebody's got to tap you on the shoulder and wake you up.

And then you got gotta start tightening screws and actually crafting something so it's like you have this sort of nebulous artistic process going on in your brain and then eventually to make it come to fruition you have to apply some sort of skill and discipline to it you know yeah no that makes total sense to me. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether

you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him!

Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. You know, it's interesting also that part of what you become known for is really experimenting with alternative tunings in your work. You know, guitar is your primary jam. And it sounds like from the earliest days, you know, for you, which kind of ties into this, it's sort of like, okay, so let me think differently even about this one thing. You know, okay, so I have a guitar in my hands. I have this one instrument.

And there's a standard way that 99.9% of people play it. But something in your brain is saying, but that's not necessarily the constraints that I feel I have. And let me just completely mess around with them. Yeah. It's fun. It really is fun. Do you play the guitar? I do. Yeah. Yeah. It's just one night, I don't know what indulge in but you know just indulge in a little of something that you enjoy and uh and then just sit on your sofa and just just start unwinding and winding strings up and you'll break one and but and just strum and see what see what feels

good at that moment and it's almost like you got to relearn how to play the instrument, every tuning you use. There's some musical term for it, but there's, I thought it, you know, I did it out of necessity because I was in a three piece band and I always hated when a guitar player would go into a solo or something like that and then everything dropped out yeah except the bass and the drums and i'm like you know and when you go in the studio you play the rhythm guitar behind it and then you put the solo on top but but i didn't really i didn't want to really do that either but i just started twisted things it's it was basically there to fill space

so that i could create these droning kind of things that would go through the whole song and that's something that i i i really got from bob mold you know from who's could do yeah i thought i'm like man listen to that and you create these overtones and harmonics. It's just insane. Like what, am I hearing that? Is that, is that's what's really going on there? And even Bob Mould, I love his guitar playing. He's such an underrated guitar player, but man, he creates this sonic landscape and it's jagged on the edges, but's so much beauty like if you just listen a little deeper there's so much harmonic complexity and beauty in what he's doing yeah and that's like it it almost sounds like there's more than one person playing sometimes yeah you know um which

i guess is part of what you're talking about like Like when you got a power trio and you, you know, the one guitar drops into a lead, if there isn't something else to like, to give it some spaciousness, you know, like it's sort of like, okay, so everything kind of, it gets thin.

But then you look at guys like, you know, like people have been doing this for a long time. Like Robert Johnson, right? Zepp. Oh, everybody.

When I learned that, right. When I joni mitchell and jimmy page you know robert johnson and you know all these people uh stephen stills another guy i felt vindicated because i felt like i was cheating you know yeah and you're like but i was just trying to feel the best i've done this yeah yeah you know and i'm like that's really cool and so necessity is the mother of invention and i only had one guitar i couldn't afford another one so what i did was i was i was hanging out in a music store and i saw banjo tuners and a thing called a hip shot. This is so wonky. Nobody's going to care. But I put banjo tuners and a hip shot on my guitar

so I could lower the E string to a D. I could tune the B string up to a C and tune the E string up to an F sharp. So I could do all these other tunings while I was playing. I could just wham and then drop it down to a D and drone that out and play a little solo on the top you know but things like that yeah yeah which simultaneously makes for an amazing sonic experience and drives anyone who wants to try and figure out how to play what

you're playing completely bad yeah i know you know what's amazing to me? And I don't do this a lot, but occasionally someone will send me a video of like a 12-year-old girl playing one of my songs in a standard tuning better than I can play it. And I'm like, oh, I got to get a hold of this kid. She's got to show me how to play this song the right way. Yeah, that's amazing. You build on that. You start to build with robbie i mean goo goo doll sounds like starts out really more like a punk vibe eventually evolves to your sound becomes more melodic interesting also that in the beginning i've heard you share how robbie was really more of the front man and it took a number of years for you to sort of, you know, like write more and then also like be more front and center. And I've also heard you describe yourself as kind of like quieter, more like in a personal and a private setting, you know, like not that person, but there's something that happens to you when you get on stage where when you step out there, it's almost like you're stepping into

a different persona. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You know? Yeah. It's crazy because you know, there's a lot of fear still. I've been doing this for 30 years or whatever. And, and, uh, I stand on the side of that stage and I'm like, you know, Robbie is a natural born entertain in the work ethic of what I'm doing. And I think growing up in Buffalo, I had a lot to do that. And early on, you know, I had my mentors that were from the local music business. And them saying to me, look, at the time it was like, somebody spends 10 bucks to come and see you. You better give them a show kid and it's like yeah i get it i get it you know and and you know i i always got sort of put off by

i'm not naming names you know bands that i've been on tour with and uh that come and sitting at a bar with with one of them and just whining about having to play this massive multi-Grammy winning 10 million album sales song that bought you a house in the Hollywood Hills. And you're going to bitch about playing that? That's the Buffalo in you. I know it is. You can only be so pretentious from buffalo but it just it just it struck me as being like wow you ungrateful son of a bitch like like you know and like i get sometimes i get i get the little bit of a sigh before i play iris

just like it's the only song anybody knows and then I'm like shut up quit feeling sorry for yourself that's what they paid to see go give it to them you know and that's the way it should be it's a contract it's like an unwritten contract between you and your audience

and I it's interesting because Robbie's very very comfortable on stage. And I like being on stage and I can switch into that personality or that persona, whatever. Yeah, but as soon as I walk off the stage, it's like somebody letting the air out of a balloon. And I don't party anymore. And it's, and you know, you know, so I'm, so I'm drinking my club soda and I call home, you know, the real world awaits, you know? Yeah. I mean, it sounds like it's the, it's sort of like the sweet spot of,

you know, you're brought up and, you know, like in a town that values hard work, that's kind of hard scrabble in a blue collar environment. And, but also, you know, having just acquired a sensibility, having like more towards the introverted side of the spectrum. I know that sort of, it was eyeopening to me when a friend of mine actually sort of explained, Hey, you know, the difference between extroverts and introverts, isn't that, you know, like one is a raging party animal and the other one isn't, it's both are social and are not, are, you know, an introvert is not an antisocial person.

It's just being around large numbers of people. It can be really energizing in the moment, but when you're done, you're empty. Whereas an extrovert goes to that exact same experience to fill up. Yeah. Kind of weird. It's sort of like one of the things that I always thought about was, because we came up playing in front of like five people, getting in a filthy van, and just traveling around. We did that for almost 10 years before we got a break. And then all of a sudden, you get this quote-unquote hit, and you start selling records. And then all of a sudden, the world is changing around you.

And it's terrifying. Yeah, especially if you're a shy-ish person. Because I can be a very shy-ish person to people. And I don't get that close to too many people. That started more. It kicked into a higher gear after we had gotten like a couple of hit songs. Because I started to feel like, well, where were all these pretty girls before I had a hit song? Wait a minute, who are all these people that all of a sudden are inviting me to parties and stuff? I have no idea who these people are and whatever. So I declined every invitation and I, you know, stuck with who I knew. Kind of circled the wagons and, you know, and that was at the point I was like, and this is, I really, honest to God, man, honest to God,

I feel like after you write your first hit song, everyone around you is applauding. Oh my God, that's amazing. It's amazing. It's as if you won the lottery and everyone is going, oh my God, John, you won the lottery. Do it again. And I'm like, uh. The pressure of that is insane. Well, that's where the roots, aside from the genetic predisposition, that's where the roots of my own addiction sort of started in fear, man. Just at that point, I was terrified because I didn't know who to trust

because nobody tells you the truth when you're really successful in that situation. You hang on to the people who say, John, yeah, you look fat in those pants, you know, I'm here, like, whatever, you know, because so many people wind up with these, I don't know what you call them, what's a good word, just like yes men around them, and some people thrive on it, because they're narcissists, you know, although, I mean, I guess I'm a narcissist too, or somewhat of a narcissist because I want people to love my music. I have no shame about that. I'm not going to completely flip who I am. You know, I stopped playing punk rock music because I didn't feel it anymore because I was a 24-year-old man at that point, 25-year-old man. And to me, punk rock is kid music.

It's what you do. It's like Joe Strummer said, turning rebellion into money. And it's like, and Bob Mould, there's a great Bob Mould quote. They asked him, is punk dead? Well, I hate that question. It's not dead as long as there's a 13 13 year old boy yeah you know wearing a pair of chucks totally you got a funny haircut and it's like but bob mold said bob mold said no punk's not dead you can buy it at kmart i was like yeah man that was great there suddenly became well when

punk rock became arena rock and then ultimately stadium rock. It was very formulaic, I think. A lot of it is very formulaic. And it's pop music. I'm not shit talking any band. No, no, I totally get it. I love all that stuff. Right.

But eventually, I feel like anything that lasts long enough that starts as counterculture becomes the culture. It does. And that was a weird thing. Like when there was a guy named Kevin Weatherly who used to run K-Rock in Los Angeles. And that was the most powerful radio station in the universe. You got a song played on K-Rock that became your single. And you went and made the video. And you kissed everyone's ass you had to.

And the trajectory was very straight. Then you started getting ads. After K-Rock added you, everybody was going to add you. And that radio game was how I defined my success for a lot of years. You know, did I crack the top 20 on it? Yeah.

What did we debut at? What is it? It's just, it's nerve-wracking and now because radio is so consolidated and the the programming of radio i mean it's these like yeah it's a different beast that's a different beast it's like algorithm it's algorithm based right yeah humor yeah yeah and it's not i don't i mean i know that my songs will always get played you know on the i don't it's not an oldie's issue but like you know like how to like ac radio or how to whatever i'm in recurrent rotation a lot of places and i hear one of my songs every single day you

know i'll be in the supermarket or the home depot or wherever i am am. And I'll hear one and then I kind of cringe a little and then I'm just like, hey, hey, you're lucky. Okay. You're right. I am lucky. But it does. It becomes the mainstream at some point. And a lot of times the people, especially writers and people who are in but out, they shit on the bands. People feel like they have the right to shit on you if you have a little success. And they think you automatically did something

wrong and different to get that way. And I remember being that way myself because I saw U2 when I was 14 or 15. I saw them2 when I was 14 or 15. I saw them play at a theater. And I was just like, man, these guys are amazing. And then it was like, what?

Wait a minute, hold on. Now they're on the radio? Now they're playing at the arena? What the hell's going on? Screw those guys. They sold out. And it's so easy to dismiss that. But a lot of times artists are thrust into those positions through no fault of their own other than creating something that other people found appealing. Yeah. And I mean, once you land there, it's, I think some people are, you know, they're equipped to handle it, but it's almost like it feels like that is the rar Rolling Stone, that classic Scabullo shot, like topless. And everyone's like, oh my, this is the biggest thing ever.

And behind the scenes, he's kind of melting down because he's now become something he didn't want to be. And now he's got everyone telling him, this is where you got to keep being. And this is what your next album has to be. And oh, and you have to now try and repeat what you just did which was like make the biggest selling live album in history yeah and you're he's in his 20s and so i mean you know that's i gotta imagine anyone who has you know like you guys eventually you're getting around for a long time but then like mid-90s hit and you've got

these series of things where you got huge things. And it's almost like, how does any human being who's sentient and who's feeling and who's empathic deal with that, you know, and still come out like without going through some sort of trough of sorrow or window of darkness? Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, all of a sudden, everything that I wanted, I had. And I was terrified, miserable. So they'd say, go to therapy, go to therapy. So I go to therapy. And then they're like, here, take these. You'll feel better. So you take those and you kind of feel better and then it just becomes this slippery slope of well i can't sleep well take these and then then you don't have those

pills anymore and you can't sleep so you go and get those pills and you start drinking more and you know it's very strange because the question that I always asked myself was, well, who, who's going to be here when, when all the fun stops, who's going to be here at the party when everybody else has left and they're actually going to help me clean up. You know what I mean? And that was tough. And I had to, I had, you know, I almost lost everyone in my life and, you know, damn near killed myself. You know, and it's such a cliched story. But it's the fact that people feel like they own a little piece of you or they know something about you. It's like, yeah yeah it's cool it's it's

nice to be appreciated but but you don't know me you know and uh you know people talk all kinds of smack all the time it's just easy to talk smack it's so easy to just make yourself feel better just by, I mean, I've done it and we've all done it. Ah, screw that guy. I could have done it better. You know, it's. Yeah. But, but I think everyone's been through their version of that, but a lot of people, when it happens, it's not public. You know, when it happens, there's not, you know, there's not the face that you have to then wear to a mass number of people on a brand you have to represent and these expectations you have to meet.

And then, you know, my sense is it's different, you know, and it's harder when you fall. And at the same time, it's not to say that there's not a stunning gratitude and appreciation for everything that comes along with it. Absolutely. You know, yes, like you can feel that coming from you. And at the same time, you know, I know you've shared very openly about you effectively reaching this moment where you drop to your knees, it's 2014-ish.

And you're like, all right, so this is either gonna kill me pretty soon or I need to finally figure this out. Yeah. You know, what I realized, I mean, cause I, at that point, I mean, I was at that point, like around 2014, I've been trying to get sober for, you know, 10 years and I get a month, three weeks, two days, a couple hours, you know, and it just kept going and going and, you know, um, and then finally I

had to, I had to, I mean, I found myself in such a dangerous effed up situation in a blackout and waking up from a blackout in a really weird situation is it's okay. You'll just, like, my situation, I think, is hysterically funny in retrospect, where I woke up from my blackout and what was going on. But it terrified me. It terrified me. I'm like, this shit's getting dangerous. This is getting dangerous, dude. You know, and my wife was, like,'s getting dangerous. This is getting dangerous, dude. You know, and my wife was like ready to bail. You know, and she was like, I don't want to leave you because I love you.

I can't take this anymore. You know, and she said the sweetest thing to me when I had six years. She gave me my coin for six years. And she said, you haven't made me cry in six years. And I was just like, oh, wow. And that's when you realize where you belong, when you're home. That was a nice moment. Yeah.

Can't even imagine. Ugh. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I mean, along the way also, you know, six years in, almost seven now, I guess, for at this point and uh but one day at a time still right and uh yeah um married your dad now yeah you know and i got to imagine that

that um the decision like that decision and then being a dad um has given you a different perspective on everything. I think it has. I mean, it definitely softens your heart and makes you worry less about the way you are perceived by other people because you have this tiny little genius who just adores you. Do you have daughters? I have a daughter, yeah. I'm looking at your face and I'm just like, I know that feeling.

I know that smile. That's like full body. Yeah. And like, you know, he's got eyes full of tears and a hot wheels car with a wheel that fell off and like you just feel so like so powerful when you go come here honey let me fix that for you pop the little wheel back on they just think you're the greatest guy in the world man you know i love that i'm gonna miss But you know, she's my silver lining from the pandemic, you know, because I've watched her grow. I was literally away from her for half her

life, you know, and to get to spend this much time with her. And by the way, I, once again, I don't know how this happened, but I wound up living in a house with five women again. And I'm just like, oh my God, I need some testosterone. I need to go shoot a gun or something. You can't fight it. It's your destiny. I can't fight it. But I love it.

I love them. I love, I love that my daughter has a tribe of strong, smart women around her, including my sisters. And Nona lives here. Grandma lives here. And her two cousins live, with us and, and she's learning from them, you know? And, and I love that. I love that, you know, but I try to balance it out, throwing her around, wrestling with her, you know, doing that whole thing. She's such a girl. God, I was with a little boy and her, uh, last weekend and they had like this ski resort, but they had an indoor pool and the whole thing. So we took him in the pool and then about 15 minutes into like letting the kids jump into the pool. And then I grab them, put them back up and they jump back in. This little boy takes a swing at me.

And then he asked me why I had long hair like a woman. I was like, what is going on here, kid? He's like, he's, you know, it's like, he wants some, he's like challenging me. And I'm just like, I love you, Lily. Because she just loves me, man. There's no, no, no challenging the dominance, you know? I mean, she'll manipulate the hell out of me. But, you know, you get really good at sort of bobbing and weaving the manipulation, you know, with girls.

I enjoy it. And I'm just like, so what if I spoil her a little bit? Yeah. When you think about, I mean, you know, over the last year, just the time that you may want to have with her. And then you think about, okay, so as we emerge from whatever this window is, you start to head back into the studio and eventually back on the road for certain windows of time. Do you have any sense that you'll make decisions differently based on just this last year or so that you've had? Yeah. Yeah. It's very strange. It was like, I mean, I grew up insanely poor. Like, you know, my parents worked, but we always had to have food stamps and sometimes

a little help from the pantry. And they were good people. They were good people, but they were flawed. You know, like all of us, they were flawed, maybe more deeply than some. I will do everything in my power to make sure that I'm strong and healthy for that girl because I started so late. And I don't ever want her to feel the things that I felt when I became completely untethered and left my own devices. As far as the touring situation goes, yeah, she's going to be coming with me a lot more. A, because she loves it.

And B, you know, traveling is best education, right? Maybe not necessarily with a rock band, but I mean, you know, it's not like we're having wild parties on the bus anymore. And, you know, she loves it. And I love being with her because she's totally honest. She doesn't know how to lie yet. Although she's learning, she's learning, you know, like just to cover her ass. She she'll know, you know, but I just adore her in every way. I see myself in her sometimes. So like personality, I'm like, really? Like, is this genetic?

I'm like, Jesus. And I'm running down my list of character defects and i'm like oh god spare her that one please don't let that happen every parent has like those lists like oh that was a good one oh not that one not that one no yeah it's it's uh yeah that's beautiful um feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So hanging out here in this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To have the courage to be honest with yourself and not worry about the outcome. I mean, I could elaborate a little little more but i don't want to i'll just screw it up

you know like but we got this thing hanging on the wall in the kitchen this is a big poster it's made out of newspaper that says work hard and be nice to people. Generally, it's not bad. It's not a bad sort of first step to leading a good life, you know? I mean, there's so much. I mean, you've been in this for so long and like you're studying, like you're a student of having a good life.

What is that like? It's amazing. I mean, it's really, it's kind of breathtaking to be in this project for years now to have had the opportunity to speak to so many different people from so many walks of life, people who are a week away from hand to mouth and people who are at the top of industry art science politics and to see the shared humanity to see sort of like the shared values when they really just get down to it you know it's amazing, you know. It's incredible because, I mean, to me that you do this, but, you know, I have to ask you the question, is your life better? What was the best takeaway from anyone? Like you just, you had a paradigm shift when someone said something to you in an interview. I mean, there must be hundreds of them.

Yeah, there are. It's really hard to isolate one. But there are moments that have stayed with me that either because it was something deeply personal to me that somebody gave language to, or just because it was a reminder that there but for God's grace go I, or it was a reframe on what success was. So like when I, producer Lindsay, who you've met, reminds me that the person I tend to refer to the most in conversation is Milton Glaser, who was on the show years ago and passed away last year. And for so many different reasons, for the choices he made, he's this iconic designer, designed the I Heart NY logo and that classic Dylan poster with the rainbow hair. His work has touched so many different people and he kept designing and working right up until the very end when he was 91. So there were a lot of lessons in his life and the choices, the things that he said no to. He showed up and he kept a small, but hyper prolific studio in New York City. He didn't start a massive agency, which he could

have. He said no to all of these things that would have taken him away from the work. He was very clear on the work that filled him up. And he said no to what a lot of people would have been so tempted to say yes to in the name of being able to do the work and to be able to spend time with people. He just couldn't get enough of his wife being one of those people. And he said something to me also, which resonated, which was he knew why he was here from the time he was six years old. And he said, I make things that move people. And that was very personal to me because that's not everybody. But when he said that, I was like, my DNA started vibrating.

Because I was like, that's me. That's me. Really? You know? And what's interesting is like, I, I sent some of that in you too. You know, I sent a lot of that in you because there's, there's like a maker instinct in you that crosses whether it's drawing, whether it's plumbing, whether it's music, like there's something that is like a fierce creative impulse and something where you do it in part for yourself, but also because when it moves people, it adds to sort of like the experience of it. Yeah.

Yeah. No, it does. It really, truly does. That's a beautiful story, by the way. It's a really beautiful story. I mean, you know, I've been reflecting a lot about what is going on in our society and the frustration and the violence and the, I mean, where we are at. I mean, we were a hair's breadth away from a coup d'etat and i'm not getting political i'm not saying anything right or left but at the same time it's like what are the forces that are deeply behind this this discontent you know are we ever going to be back to i don't know you know and i'm i'm on the fence i i i blow with the wind now you know uh to see what to see what's happening but you know i just feel like somehow a lot of

people in this country i think a lot of it is to do with the concentration of wealth in such very few hands and people not being able to be part of trade unions, labor unions, whatever, I feel like people are losing their sense of purpose. Because I truly believe that work gives your life purpose. And sometimes you may not have your dream job and then you have to find the purpose and you work, you know? I mean, I had a lot of, I mean, I used to fry peanuts in a vat of oil for a living, you know? And I had to try to find the purpose in it, you know? There just seems to be a rush amongst certain people to just make humans obsolete. It's just like,

just because we can do it technologically and we're that advanced. I think technology is outpaced human evolution. I mean, it's just how are we going to deal with it? Yeah. I think we're on the precipice of a lot of really tough issues right now. Tough issues. You think we're going to be okay? I do. I'm oddly hopeful.

Yeah. I'm like, you know, like at the end of the day, you know, like I'm a New York Jew who is not necessarily wired for optimism, like with all things. I'm a Polish Catholic from Buffalo and I'm the same way. So you kind of get it, right? Absolutely. Right. But there is something about me

where I'm kind of like, you know what? I'm hopeful because all the things that are separating us and all the things that are challenging us right now, approach differently and use differently

can become tools for rehumanizing, tools for advancement, tools for growth, tools for connection. So it's like, it's all there and it's all available to us. And one of my fascinations is like, what switches do we need to flip for us to start to use them,

not for division and replacement, but for connection and elevation. Wow. You got to write that down, bro. We got it on tape, so it's all good. Yeah, man. You got to write that down. That was...

Anyway. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk. My pleasure, man. I'm really glad. Thank you so much, man. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Joan Osborne about her incredible life in music and activism. You'll find a link to Joan's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and

follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference Between me and you is?

You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk