Good Life Project - Kate DiCamillo | Tell the Truth, But Give 'Em Hope

Episode Date: September 3, 2020

Kate DiCamillo writes books for kids and young adults that also just happen to break open grownup’s hearts. Moving to Minnesota from Florida in her twenties, homesickness and a bitter winter helped inspire her to write Because of Winn-Dixie(https://amzn.to/39I3Vee), her first published novel, which became a runaway bestseller and earned her a Newbery Honor. Since then, Kate’s written for a wide range of ages, earning a devoted audience and heaps of accolades.Her #1 New York Times bestseller The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane was a deeply moving reflection o life, meaning and legacy, through the eyes of a toy china rabbit. The Tale of Despereaux, her Newbery Medal-winning novel, later inspired an animated adventure from Universal Pictures and Kate was named National Ambassador for Young People’s Literature for 2014–2015.She’s fiercely honest, always tells the truth, but also always leads you to a place of awakening and hope, especially in circumstances that seem destined for the opposite. And right now, we could all use a bit more of that. The theme of hope and belief amid tough circumstances is a common thread in much of Kate’s writing, in no small part because that was her story, too.You can find Kate DiCamillo at:Website : http://www.katedicamillostoriesconnectus.com/Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/CandlewickPressBooks/Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Kate DiCamillo writes books for kids and young adults that also just happen to break open grown-ups hearts including this grown-up she's fiercely honest always telling the truth but also always leading you to a place of awakening and hope especially in circumstances that seem destined for the opposite right Right now, we could all use a bit more of that. After moving to Minnesota from Florida in her 20s, kind of an enduring homesickness and a really bitter winter helped inspire her to write Because of Winn-Dixie, her first published novel, which became a runaway bestseller and earned her a Newbery honor. Since then, Kate's written for a wide

range of ages, earning a devoted audience and heaps of accolades. And the theme of hope and belief amid tough circumstances is a common thread in much of her writing, in no small part because that was her story too, as you will hear shortly. Her number one New York Times bestseller, The Miraculous Journey of Edward Tulane, moved me so deeply, even though it was clearly written for a much younger audience. It just left me thinking about life and how I wanted to live it on a day-to-day basis and really what I wanted to create in my wake. Long after I stopped reading, this stayed with me. The Tale of Despero, her Newbery Medal-winning novel, later inspired an animated adventure from Universal Pictures.

And Kate was named National Ambassador for Young People's Literature for 2014 to 2015. And amazingly, she has allowed early drafts of some of her biggest work to be made public, encouraging up-and-coming writers to understand how truly messy and often fraught the process is, how much work it takes, and that if you just keep writing, things eventually start to change. And maybe you'll just be able to forgive your humanity along the way as you work to create your own magic. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment

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whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. When you're writing and when you're sort of like doing fiercely creative work

that will go out into the world and interact with people after this moment you know like does it consciously imprint how you do the work or you just do the work and know that because you're doing it in this moment somehow it's going to be infused in it the latter but it's and it's um it's it's the same as it's always been like in the beginning, um, when you're writing, or at least this is the way it was for me. And you think no one's ever going to read this. So you've got, you've got absolute freedom there mixed with, you know, the despair of thinking no one's ever going to read this right so it's and then um uh when it now you know for ever since the first book which got a much bigger response than i anticipated i've been aware of that thing of like trying not to write for any of those reasons. It's always this thing about like,

the only language I have for it is getting out of my own way. Um, and my own way is like trying to write to the moment, understand the moment, trying to write, to make people happy, trying to, it's just all of that has to be pushed aside and what what matters is the story and the story will will bear the imprint of something much smarter and better than I am I can't you know it's it's I struggle with the language of it clearly but but I think I understand what you're saying and it kind of makes sense also especially with what you write because you don't write realistic sort of like time-centered right yeah so it's sort of like you know it it just it can move into whatever the context in

the world and the characters you create are for but it's just in it's it's differently informed. Yeah, it is. And, and that the, the differently informed is, I mean, I, I always, I've always felt like I'm tapping into something much bigger than me when it works. And so that seems ever more necessary now. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, it's interesting. And Patchett is to go between with us and, you know, I was talking to her and, and I was asking her just, you know, like how's, what's happening with her creatively through this moment also. And when I spoke with her also,

you know, we, we weren't in sort of like the second wave of now a lot of protests and which is like this really big, powerful phenomenon. And she said that she hasn't, um, she hasn't been able to write anything for grownups, but she's really been, she's been loving for some reason, uh, kids books are coming to her just like she can't stop writing. Yeah. And it's interesting because that goes into the, I don't, you know, and you know, I'm also paying attention to myself as a reader and what I, I have done so much rereading since this, I mean, and part of that rereading is, you know, I'm not like, I'm not following any set agenda. It's what my heart is pulling me to. So I've gone,

I've, I've reread the collected Hans Christian Anderson, and that has just like, you know, and I just finished, I just finished A Tale of Two Cities. And, and so it's just, it's that you're going to that human core of how do you survive as a human being? And, you know, there've been, you know, as well as I do all these studies in the last, what, five, six years, scientific studies about empathy and reading. And that truly fascinating to me thing about like, you read the sentence, he picked up the pencil and all the neurons in your brain that would be firing if you were actually pick up a pencil, like are firing when you read that sentence. So there's this huge power in the written word. And that gives me hope, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm fascinated with that whole, the mirror neuron phenomenon also, you know, of how we see something else or we i actually didn't realize it was connected to reading also that the same neurons sort of like fire off in our brain as if it were happening to us yeah and so and this was the i i um i'm infamous among my friends for saying so and so andso and so-and-so. And then there's a quiet and somebody will say, where'd you read that? And the answer is in a novel, but it's just like, but I know for a fact, I cannot cite this, but this whole thing with that literature, literally, because you're inserting yourself in the story, builds that empathy.

Can I back that up with the scientific proof? No, but I know it's out there. Well, I mean, to a certain extent, don't you think that's probably why literature is still with us in such a, you know, like a deep and lasting way is because it's so often written in a way where you step into it and you feel, you know, like in some way, shape or form, like you would, you adopt certain experiences and emotions. And, and that's, it's the fact that makes you so drawn to it. And the thing that makes you feel is in some way, shape or form that the empathy, the transference and experience. Yeah yeah and also it's that thing where remember when we were kids it's nice to have you be exactly my age there were um those it was kind

of like a hard plastic shimmery thing and you could if you could look at it and you see one pattern it was like there was something you would get at a carnival right right and then and you'd stare at it you stare at it and then all of Right. Right. And then and you'd stare at it, you stare at it. And then all of a sudden it it would shift and you could see this other thing in it. And I can feel that particularly as I'm doing all this rereading, I can feel different parts of myself opening and different puzzle pieces in myself and how I view the world, uh, clicking into place. And that's a feeling that I know from writing too, that kind of like feeling of like, it must be actually something physically happening in my brain. I talk more about my soul, but it's the brain and the soul. And I can feel it. I can feel it moving something inside of me.

And so I believe so much that a good story shows us that we can act and it's that feeling that I'm, I guess I'm responding to. Oh, that's interesting. So it's sort of, it's, it's like it opens, it makes you aware of a sense of agency. kind of like sub story about like this ne'er do well fiddler named Stabrod and how he just, he changes when he goes and plays his fiddle for this girl who's dying. She's been caught, she's caught on fire and she's dying of the burns and she wants to hear fiddle music. He goes and plays for her and he plays and she says, that's it? That's all you've got? That was really lousy. Play another song. And he's like, I don't know anymore. And she said, well, make one up. Time is short. Best go to it. So standing in front of this suffering person, he plays this song that he's never heard before,

all of which is to say that the fiddle playing changes him. And there's this wonderful line towards the end where it says that a path to redemption is available to all of us, no matter how much we've messed up. And that is what fiction gives again and again, is it shows you that you can change. You can find that path to redemption. That's what it does for me. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting.

Redemption. I mean, I feel like part of the promise is also control or translation to, you know, it's, I remember the first time I read Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning and, and the reframe that suffering can become a source of meaning. I feel like part of it is, is that too, it's sort of like, you may not be able to control. I mean, this is so much of what you write, you know, is that things happen, things happen and may not be the things that you invited or the things that you wanted. And yet something can emerge out of them that is in some way, shape or form good and adds to your life. And it's, it's, it, it brings me back to,

so the first book I wrote was because of Winn-Dixie and the main character is dealing with her mom leaving when she was very young and, and ends without her being reunited with her mother. And like within a couple months of the book being published, I started to get the letters from the kids about write another one where Opal finds her mother or why doesn't Opal find his, her mother? And I, I, I answer those questions in the letters and I answer those questions in front of people and face-to-face with kids all the time. It's just like, did she find exactly what she was looking for? No, but did she find something wonderful? And, um, the kid will say, yes, she found something wonderful. And so it's like, that's, it's like we don't always get what we hope and long for,

but we do get this grace of other people and the, just the unexpectedness of, I mean, in dwelling in that and that in it not being predictable is what we need to do to live our lives all the time, right? Is just not insist on this thing happening or that thing happening, because that's not the way the world works, but rather be present and to be open to whatever happens to a, you know, a dog who walks into a grocery store to be open to that dog. Yeah, I mean, I love that frame and it makes me think about it.

I've heard you say in the past, some variation of tell the truth, but always give them hope when you're writing for kids, especially. Always tell the truth, but always give them hope, which makes me curious. So always tell the truth, like things aren't always gonna go your way. There are hard things you have to deal with. Be honest, kids makes me curious. So always tell the truth. Like things aren't always going to go

your way. There are hard things you have to deal with. Be honest. Kids can handle that. Give them hope. It's interesting because you're not saying then give them hope that everything's going to work out okay. No, give them hope that they will be able to find connection, joy, sorrow, that it's okay. Those things, you know, it's, you know, this is, if you've poked around and me and my storytelling is there's also a pushback to the, some of my stories being dark. And to me, it always, and I'll answer that question up on a stage too. Why are they so sad? Why are they so dark? Why do you let these bad things happen? And to me, I always think, well, good grief. Do you think that your child is not living in this world? And, you know, because almost always

the darkness and the sadness comes, those questions are from the adults, not from the kids. The kids know, and adults can't bear to think about kids suffering, but they're right here with us. And then the world is beautiful and it's terrifying. And kids need and deserve stories that tell them that truth. It's beautiful. It's terrifying. You will find a way to walk through all this beauty and terror. Yeah. The hope is less, it's going to be okay, but it's, you're going to be okay. Yeah.

Yeah. That's, that's a, that's a beautiful, beautiful point. Yes. You're, you're going to be okay. Yeah. I know you wrote a piece in Time, what was it, 2018? My children's books should be a little bit sad, which really touches on this. You tell a story in that about, I guess, a kid who came up to you after you spoke and

shared your own story of your childhood and how things would be okay. Yeah. It's funny because back in the old days when we all traveled and I would go into- In the before times. In the before times. I would go into schools and talk and talk to kids and, you know, do a presentation. They always want you to have a PowerPoint. So, okay, here's my PowerPoint. And, and it goes back to this thing about why am I standing up here talking to you? Okay, well, I'm going to have to tell you the truth. This is part of how I became a writer.

And part of it is that my father left the family when I was young. I mean, I think that's part of why I write. I also think part of why I write is because I was sick all the time as a kid and I spent so much time alone and in my head and in stories. And I think that's part of why I write. So I tell all this to the kids. I tell them that my father left. I tell them that I was sick all the time. And whether there's a kid that comes up to me afterwards and wants to talk about that,

or sometimes something electric will happen among the kids where they will make the connection as I'm talking. All these bad things happened. And yet those bad things gave you the gift of this writing and it's like exactly in the room it doesn't always happen but when they make that connection collectively then it's just like oh and then they can see that um it's funny because it takes me all the way back to a totally different thing, which is outlining your story, right? Because I'm just thinking how we want to present things to kids as linear, this than that. And because that's the way the, we want the world to work. And that's the way you give you, you rest some meaning out of the chaos, right? But I was in this big auditorium in Connecticut, and I was talking about how I don't write with an outline. And I just, I just can't. And a little boy raised his hand and said,

what if you were in a class with a teacher who said that you can't write a story unless you outline it. You have to turn the outline in first. And I said, is your teacher in the auditorium now? And he said, yeah, that's her right there. It's like, okay. So then I turned to her and I said, if I was the child sitting in your classroom and you wanted me to write a story, but I could not write it for you unless I outlined it first, I wouldn't be able to do it. And there's all kinds of different ways to write and everybody does it differently. And it is kind of that thing of, we have to give you rules, but we have to let you open to possibility. And we have to be encouraging you to constantly, you know, look if you like, but you're going to have to leap, right?

And so that's what a story gives you. That's what experience where you're not going to be able to make yourself safe because you're sick or because a parent is missing and you don't understand why. But these things, these, what seems pathless actually can become a path there. I don't know if I pulled that all together or not, but I think that you know what I'm trying to say. I think I do also. I love that you sort of like bounced from the experience with the kids in the room to, to process also. And because it's like, we all, we, we as adults long for the rules to hold, right. It's just like when, when, when somebody, and you know this too,

when somebody raises their hand and says, how do I write a book? How do I do it? We all want somebody to tell us this is the way. And we just want, I want to be told that. But I know for a fact that I'm going to have to wander through the, you know, down the long, dark hallway for a long time. And the only thing I can do is keep on walking down the hallway. I don't, you know, each book is different. Every writing experience is different. And we don't know what the rules are. Yeah.

I feel like we get caught up in easy over good, you know? Oh my goodness. That is so true. You know, we just want the structure so that we don't have to struggle so much to fill in the gaps within the structure, because then we'll get to a place where we know we've checked all the boxes and it will be, quote, you know, it will at least have everything that it's supposed to have rather than, you know, like you said, the wandering in the wilderness part. I write nonfiction and I wrote a book a number of years back on uncertainty and how engaging in large scale creative endeavors with high stakes and high uncertainty, some people it wrecks and some people somehow it becomes fueled and they navigate and create extraordinary things. And I'm doing all the interviews for it. And I started that book by making this fiercely detailed outline and then I'm just filling it in. And I started that book by making this fiercely detailed outline, and then

I'm just filling it in. And as I'm interviewing all of these legendary creators to the one, they're telling me, well, so good stuff comes out when you stay fairly structured and linear, but nothing great ever happens that way. They're like, the great stuff happens when you let go of the structure and the outline and you just go where it needs to go and i'm sitting here checking off boxes and you're like oh that's interesting i'm like i'm so busted here and you know it's um i oddly i think about dickens and a christmas carol and how he needed to pull something. He, his, I can't, I can't remember exactly where it was in his whole,

he wrote it for every wrong reason. And it's still, you know, so you can still write by outline and something greater can still make its way in around it. But I think like you, you know, you probably know the book art and fear, don't you? Sure. And I just, I think about that, that all the time, that whole, the, uh, the potters who were told, okay, you're going to get graded on making your one perfect pot, or you can get graded on the number of pots that you make. Right. And so the people who, you know, are going to make their one perfect pot, it's just like, how do I do that? But the ones who are just going to make as many pots as they can.

And so I think about that every morning when I get up, it's like, okay, I'm going to go in there and I'm just going to write those pages and I'm not going to ask them to be perfect. I'm just going to like show up and throw the pot, right? I'm just going to like them to be perfect. I'm just going to like show up and throw the pot, right? I'm just going to like, that's it. And if I ask it to be perfect, if I ask it to hue to the outline, sorry, I'm just, I, I, I just cannot do it by outline. I'm, I can't do it. Ultimately it is just, and I'll say this sometimes after I'm finished talking, it's just like, there's only one wrong way to do this. And that is if you want to do it and you're not doing it. And that message comes, you know, courtesy of almost 10 years that I spent as a callow youth from, you know, 20 to almost 30 saying, I want to be a writer.

I want to be a writer. I want to be a writer and not writing. Like that's a terrible way to spend your life wanting to do something and not doing it. That's wrong. Everything else, once you sit down, it's, it's all you trying to figure it out for yourself. You read as much as you can. Somebody can show you how to strip something away, make it cleaner, but most of the journey itself is you. And a teacher is to go along on that journey with you. I always think like with an editor and this is what, you know, Ann will read my, Ann Patchett is a fantastic reader and also will always tell you the truth, right? And so you're in, when you're writing, you feel like you're down there in the trenches and somebody who is a good reader or a

good teacher or a good editor can come and they're flying above and they can see, they can see the pattern in the thing that you're doing and you might not be able to see it yet. And so that's enormously helpful. But mostly, it's just you down there digging and hoping that what emerges is a pattern. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. Let's talk about those 10 years a bit though. Yeah, let's.

I'm curious. So, I mean, we jumped through like right into the deep end of the pool, which is always fun. Born in Philly, raised in a small town in Central Florida, right? A little bit west of Orlando, I guess. Correct. Yes. Yeah. End up studying English, I guess, and then coming out and then you have this sort of quote fallow period. I think I've heard you call it the lost years. The dark age. Where you're working all sorts of different jobs, you know, like Disney and greenhouse and all these different things. And while you describe it as 10 years of not writing, I question that. Um, because I guess

I questioned the distinction between when I think about writing, I think a lot of us would consider writing what happens when your fingers finally hit the keyboard. And at least for me, most of the writing happens before my fingers hit the keyboard. And it's the accumulation of thought, reflection, contemplation, and then years of not quote writing that are actually like, to me, this, because I could, you couldn't, you couldn't actually, what comes out of those fingers when it hits the keyboard couldn't come out, but for the fact that you spent 10 years doing all these different things. So is it really 10 years not writing? It's a beautiful point.

And, you know, in all the interviews that I've done, no one saying, usually they come from this side. Aren't you sorry that you wasted all that time? And my answer, which is going to lead into you're not writing how you phrased it is no, I don't regret it at all. I don't regret it. I mean, I look back and I'm chagrined. I can see my youthful self and my black turtleneck posturing, right? But I was, all those jobs that I was doing, which were things that brought me very, they taught me about the world about other people that was one thing so we can put that in the not writing but writing category but the other thing and and it has shaped me going forward and also I'm and I'm very different than like Ann Patchett in this respect and we've talked about this where like you she will write and write and write in her head and and we've talked about this, where like you, she will write and write and write in her head and not write. But for me, that long period of wanting to do something and not doing it kind of like hardwired this thing into my brain of show up every day, and then you can shut up that part of you that is beating yourself up for not doing this. And so I just got into, that's how I got into the saddle was

I'm going to just, I'm going to sit down and do these two pages every day and then I can shut up about this. Then I'm doing it doing it right and so that kind of like wore a groove in my brain of okay this is how to get this done is to show up every day and so I and and particularly now that I'm not you know what it's like I I spent most of my life traveling before and I would never I I wouldn't, I would only write when I was home. Now I'm home all the time. And so it's just, it has been, you know, now three and a half months of showing up every morning and doing those pages. And so it, it, some days are terrible. Some days are wonderful. I find that showing up makes me realize what it is that

I want to write about. And also, I just, it's so much easier to do it than it is not to do it. And I have that in the PowerPoint to the kids. And I don't know that the kids are old enough to get that, how hard it is to pretend to do something and how much easier it is to just go ahead and do it. It's much easier to do the work than it is not to do the work. And I say that to them and I get a uniformly blank look until I get to older kids, you know, 17, 18, younger kids, they don't get that it's easier to do the work than it is not to do the work. There, I get all my answers are too long. I'm sorry. It's like beauty of podcasts is like, it's long form.

We just go. It's interesting that you say that about the different age ranges also. I wonder how much of that has to do with this sense of trying to figure out where you fit in and where you belong and not in being so fearful of being judged. You referenced earlier and like you kind of write and as if all kind of like in the early days as if nobody's ever going to see it. Right. And that I think is such a powerful prompt. Saw some research years ago that basically demonstrated that if you're given the choice to either choose something, which is like, you kind of know it's actually something called the ellsberg paradox so if you had like two jars side by side and one jar had 50 marbles and and 25 black 25 white and the other jar had

50 marbles also black and white but you had no idea like what the distribution was you know could be 90 you know like 49 and one or whatever it was and then somebody said to you okay so pick the most valuable thing that you have in your life or relationship and you have to wage or losing that and and um and then tell me which jar you want to pick a marble from and tell me whether it's black or white almost invariably people people go for the jar where it's a known distribution, like the 25 and the 25. Even though there's no, from a logic standpoint, this is one of those like A, B, C, D, E, not enough information.

There's no rational basis to do that. And then I saw a variation of that experiment where they said, nobody will ever know what you've chosen. And the bias away from the certain option vanished what they realized was there's a massive social context to people being willing to you know like take risks and step into this place of uncertainty so that which is what you're describing with sort of like the prompt that you use for yourself and also for you know like other people when they're thinking about okay so, so how do I really go to that place?

Right. That's fantastic. Is it Ellsberg? Ellsberg. Yeah. That's actually the same Daniel Ellsberg behind the Pentagon Papers was also a decision theorist. Wow. Wow. And that's fascinating because it is just it's that um because i always i think about getting all of those demons off your shoulders as you write right here they are saying you can't do that who do you think who do you think you are this is never going to work out and then over on the other shoulder hey try to write to make them happy. Hey, tell a happy story. Hey, do this, do that. All of those. And that's, you know, that that's however you want to call it. That's what other people think. That's peer pressure. That's

like they all have to go away. Right. They have to they're not going to go away. They have to be silenced while you do this thing. And so you just, it's, this is, I'm relatively new to this, only like three years into it, but I'm really glad to have it now with meditation. And meditation, I find, makes that dialogue with the, all these voices that sit on your shoulder and say, you can't, you don't, it's just like, okay, you know, there that is, let it go. There that you just, you don't follow it down the rabbit trail. And that is enormously helpful learning that those voices are never going to go away. And also that you don't have to, to listen to them.

You just say, okay, heard that, letting it go, heard that, letting it go. What are you thinking? No, I was nodding along because I'm also a meditator and I have found it so profoundly valuable too. But it's interesting because the reason that you described is the same reason that I find it really helpful in a creative practice, but it's not what most people point to for why they do it, which is it trains you to continually drop things. You know, most people focus on like how it trains your attention, but I find my practice is mindfulness. So like, you know, part of that is about persistently acknowledging things and then actively letting them go. And that, you know, when you do that every day, year after year after year, it just floods

out into all sorts of other moments in your life, especially the creative process. And I found that so valuable also. And also that thing that this is since you've, I'm sure, been at it much longer than I have. But what I'm, gosh, and I'm so glad to have it now in these times, right? But it's just, I just, I'm aware sometimes of, oh, wait a minute, there's room to turn around in here. Um, and that, that just, just that moment, that's all you need is that, and that's super helpful in writing too.

So it's just like, I'm talking about these voices on my shoulder that are never really going to go away, but I can hear them and then dismiss them. But also the thing that says, because sometimes when I'm writing, I feel like I've got a divining rod and, you know, you walk along and then you can feel the stick tremble over a certain word or sentence. Since I've started to meditate, I can listen much more clearly to that thing of, oh, wait a minute, we're going here, which goes all the way back to the outline again, right? If you have the outline, you're not even going to hear that because you don't want to hear that because you got to stay on this train schedule, right? But like those messages about, wait a minute, you're digging in the wrong place.

Dig here. Those come through much more clearly now because time has also changed profoundly with how the world has changed. It's like, okay, I scrap all that and I start over and I go here and I'm much more relaxed about that now. Yeah, I love that. I look at it as the outline gets you from A to B the fastest, but what if the story is C? Right. That's great. I'm not going to steal that from you, but-

No, feel free. But I'm quite sure I've probably stole it from someone else. I'll credit you. I'll credit you. But that's, that's great. That is, that's absolutely great. Yeah. Because that's, you know, I feel like we're so obsessed with efficiency, you know, but at the end of my days, you know, like I don't want my tombstone to read, he led an efficient life. No. And, you know, and I am the queen of getting things done and the queen

of impatience. And I've, I've said for a long time, the only place I've learned to be patient is with the writing, but now I'm learning to be patient in all kinds of situations. So the writing is probably the first introduction. I've never said this out loud, but when I think about it, it's probably true. The first introduction I had to mindfulness and then mindfulness itself, you know, took me that. And so I'm just like this. The impatience is, I just, it's that room to turn around. And I feel it so profoundly and I'm so grateful for it. Oh, you don't have to act on this right now. And like I said, I learned that a long time ago with the story because you watch it come out and you can't believe how terrible it is. And if you're not patient, if you don't keep on showing up, then it's not going to get better. So it's and this is another thing that kids do get this.

And but it's astonishing how they don't want to hear it. And neither do the adults. It's just like that. That thing about art and fear talks about this, too, how it's not going to come out right the first time. So that coming back to it, reworking it, reworking it, reworking it, that's patience, that's presence, being present for it and listening to the story. And eventually, and telling yourself with each draft, this doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be a little bit better than the one before. And then you can move forward. Yeah, I love that.

You know, it's interesting. I've never really thought about like the writing process like that as sort of a mindfulness driven process, but it really is. It so counters the way that I think our expectations are set these days, which is you do it and it's done. It forces you to say, like, no, there are a series of cycles that have to unfold over time. And as much as you want to rush them, it's not even about, sure you can get better at the craft side of things, but the limiting factor there eventually is no longer the craft. It's what needs to come out of you.

And you don't necessarily control the timeframe around that. Ah, yeah. Does that land with you? Yeah, it totally does. It totally does. And that goes back to that thing about you saying how you're, when you're not writing, you're writing. I mean, that's, that's all connected to,

and it also makes me think about, and this is more just a process thing, but it also goes to there, there was a, this is a long time ago. I don't know who wrote it. There was a article in poets and writers about how no one wakes up one morning and says, I'm going to be a brain surgeon you know um you you go to college and then you go to medical school and then you train to become and you know it's all of this but since we can all write we we all we wake up one morning and think I'm going to be a writer so nobody thinks about all the apprenticeship that you have to put in of learning how to do it. And, um, I, uh, there's a, here at the university of Minnesota, there's a wonderful collection called the Curled and Curled in collection, where you can come into this archive and see rough drafts of, uh, children's writers,

their art and, um, their stories. And so all of my terrible, terrible, terrible drafts are there. And it's embarrassing to think about. And I went, I've got a friend who teaches there and she had her undergraduates come into the Curlin collection for, you know, an introductory talk about what it was about. And I went and sat there while that presentation went on. And the Curlin director did the PowerPoint for the kids and had a PowerPoint of the first page of the first draft of Because of Winn-Dixie that she put up on the screen in front of these freshmen, basically, which means that they were old enough that they grew up reading Because of Winn-Dixie. And it looks like something that Jack Nicholson wrote in The Shining.

And so first you can hear the gasp of horror from these kids and then the laughter and then like kind of like another layer of something like settling over them but wait a minute this turned into the this book in in a book that for some of them mattered to them when they were kids and so it's like i i don't think that whether we're young readers or old readers, most of us ever like see that kind of like behind the scenes kind of, I remember, you know, when I, I worked at Disney world for a long time when I was a kid and there are underground tunnels and there's backstage, you know, so I had gone to Disney world as a kid, of course, cause I lived very close. And then I worked there. And then you see backstage. And the very first time I tried to write a story, I thought, oh, now I'm backstage, right?

And you see that it's work. It's plumbing. It's ductwork. It's underground tunnels. It's just like all to make the magic happen up here. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not.

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charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk how amazing though i mean what incredible gift for you and for all the other contributors to that project to be willing to say like here was here's my scary first draft or first page because when somebody else interacts with that all of a sudden they're like, oh, oh wait, like maybe this is attainable where I, I so often I feel like somebody looks like, you know, a book at Winn-Dixie or so many of yours or so many others.

And they're like, you know, the rare person is like, I am going to put in the 20 years to be able to pen a sentence that somehow approximates that. And then, but the vast majority of people, I think look at something like that. They're like, I will never be able to do something like that so i'm not even going to try you know like you and you just must you know whoever created that must be some sort of bizarre strange you know like person who just had rare dna and it came out that way and i'm not that person and this like this lets people it lets people know like no no it's not that's not how it works at all. To sit in there with those kids and see that reaction. I mean, I, and I've, you know, I don't, I I'm mortified every time I print up another draft and I take it down to the

basement. I think, don't think about that now. It'll be a long time before anybody sees it. I, I'm mortified by it. And the reason that I do it is for what I saw in that room when she made that presentation. But also there was, I did, you know, one of those luncheons where, you know, you're sitting next to this person and that person. I don't even know where I was. It was like 15 years ago. And I sat next to somebody who said, oh, I'm from Minnesota too. And I had, I'd gone into the Curlin collection and I'd looked at the first draft of Because of Winn-Dixie and it was terrible. And she said, and I thought, but if you're allowed to start here, then I could write a book. And her first book was going to come out that month. And that's why she was sitting at that table.

And so I think that it's a shame that it's a shame also because just as a reader that you don't know that whether you want to write or not, because there's always a human being on the other side of, of the book. And that's what makes it, you know, I say to the kids, it's not finished until you read it. And so I might not be anywhere near you. I could be on the other side of the world, literally. But like we managed to connect through that story and it's not done until you're reading it and you complete it. And that's what's so nice about being able to go out and

talk to kids and talk to people. I'm like, look, here I am, a messy human being. Do not for one minute think that the book is something perfect and the person who wrote it is somebody. I'm just a messy human being trying to tell a story. And I've had kids come up to me afterwards and say, but if you could do this, because you were sick all the time and you're, you know, you're basically, you're just, and you're so, I'm short, that helps, right? You're so short and you can do this. It's like, yep, if you want to do this, you can do it too. And I've said to adults sometimes that I've been in so many writing groups and I would sit

there and people to the left and the right of me, it was very clear. They were much more talented than I was. And I just remember having the conscious thought, I cannot make myself talented, but I can make myself show up and do the work. And I can make myself relentless about putting the work out into the world. That is what's available to me. And that is what I hung my hat on. And it's something that whatever it is that you want, if you're willing to put your heart and soul into it, it opens doors for you. It's not always success. feel like yeah boy i've

been super lucky to have success it's what every story has given to me as i've written it and then how it it gives me that connection when it goes out with the readers in the world that thing i was never prepared for that and that has been the hugest gift of all to connect with people that way. I love the idea that it's not complete until someone reads it. The final act of creation is actually an act of connection. Yes. Oh, and boy, you should write that down. That's beautiful. Say it again so we can get it in our heads. The final act of creation is actually an act of connection as we talk about that um a number of years back we had a guy named um chris ellis on the podcast and chris used to go by the name days that was his tag he was one

of the original graffiti artists in the late 70s and in the bronx and i remember him saying to me it resonates so much with what you're saying now. He's like, you know, people used to think we were vandals or sometimes I thought we were just marking up all these trains. He's like, but, but we knew that, you know, like we would write a subway car in the Bronx and effectively we would send it out to Brooklyn and then they would write and they would, they were, it was like, they were sending it back to the, and he's like, what people didn't get is we were actually, this was our way of having conversations with other crews, which is so similar to what you're saying. It's like, it's the, it's the creative act, but then like the final pieces, you send it out. It's a

conversation. Right. Right. It's a conversation. And it's just, it's a, I've watched kids get that, see that spark go on. You know, it's just like, okay, you and I are right here together right now. And I'm talking to you, but I'm there even when you've, if you've never met me, never, you know, we've never been in the same room, but we're, we're there together. That's my heart, your heart. And then, which takes us all the way back to the empathy piece and the science of reading. It's just that thing that what you do is you fill in those gaps and that's how the empathy, as you're reading, you fill in the gaps and make the story, you become a part of the story. And that's how the empathy happens. And

so it is literally my heart, your heart, and that's, it's just, and it makes this complete thing, but without your heart, my heart, it's just, it doesn't, be able to have that conversation. And that may be, I'm going all the way back to how do you write in these times and whether these times I'm trying to answer for them, but I'm just, it's, I'm just ever more aware of how important it is to put my heart out there that I feel even more keenly throw myself out there and wait for the readers to catch me. Yeah, I mean, part of it's interesting that it comes back to you throwing your heart out there. Some of your later books, the Ramey Nightingale trilogy, especially the third book with Beverly, where it was, in my reading, it's all about the sweet spot between bravery and love. And the whole trilogy is sort of like, I feel like this is actually, this is Kate's three-part therapy session. She's unpacking sort of like, like the, you know,

the three people inside of her and then who she wants to sort of like, and a process of becoming at the same time. That's so funny that you would say that. I just talked to a friend who's 70 years old. He's, he's a man. He read, I've known him for 20 years. He read Ann Patchett's piece about how, you know, and so, okay, I'm going to read Kate. It's like, because Ann tells you to, right? And he just said to me this morning, he had just finished Beverly. He said, I think you're all three of those girls. And I said, you are certainly

right. And you are right too. And you're right about that. It's just, I can feel so keenly that Ramey is who I was as a kid. Louisiana is who I barely missed being. If situation had been a little bit more dire, that's the way it would have been for me. And Beverly's who I wanted to be, that bravery and that tenderness. So yeah, it's just, it's writing myself into becoming. Yeah. Yeah. There's this energy that I get through so much of your writing through a long window of time.

I'm going to say it wrong, but are you familiar with the Portuguese word saudade? No. Spell it for me. I think it's S-A-U-D-A-D-E, something like that. It's apparently really hard to translate to English, but really roughly translated, it's a sense of longing, but it's a sense of,

instead of, it's the pain of longing, but it's the beautiful pain of longing. You know, it's this sense of, you know, like it's something you almost yearn for. It's something that you can feel about something that you know, you're going to lose, but haven't yet lost. Like, um, you know, maybe as a child goes out into the world and you feel in the senior year, um, I feel that sense in, in your writing. I wonder if you feel that within it too, or if you feel it coming out of you. I'm thinking about how I think you've put your finger right on. I'm working on my emotions. Isaac Dennison, who is, was a Danish storyteller.

There's a quote that I come back to again and again of hers, which is the essence of his nature. She's writing about a poet. The essence of his nature was longing. And that is, that has been underlined by me since I was, it was like 25 years ago. And I come back to it again and again and again. So yes, I think you're exactly right. At the same time, I think it becomes one of those things on my shoulder that I cannot think about. I cannot be too aware of what it is that is guiding me and that the essence of who I am is longing, homesickness, and the stories

are a way to connect and to ease that homesickness and to ease that longing. And that's been the beautiful thing is that that has been the great good fortune of my life is to have people connect with me through those stories. It has been truly, truly profound. So yeah, I think you're one smart individual. That's what I think. And one very good reader. I feel seen, I feel unmasked, and I feel also, because I feel seen, empowered. So thank you. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. Thanks for making me cry. Yeah. As we sit here in this, in this virtual container, the good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to see and be seen. What is it for you?

It's to love and be loved first and foremost. And I think to be, not to argue with you, but I think to be loved is to be seen. Yeah. So I think, I think we have the same definition of a good life. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life?

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getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun

On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference Between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot

Flight Risk