Good Life Project - Kerri Kelly | The Myth of Wellness & How We Truly Heal

Episode Date: July 11, 2022

We’ve all heard the call to self-care, some have even heeded it. But what if, beyond the core concept of taking care of your physical, emotional, and spiritual self, there was a deeper engine of discord and exclusion at play? Wellbeing is, no doubt, key to living a good life, but wellness - as a concept - over the years, has become an industry, and along with that has come both incredible benefits and also a host of co-opted, problematic ideals, offerings and structures. A look under the hood often reveals an arguably toxic industry with deep cracks in its foundation that threaten to reveal the inequitable, exclusionary, shame-driven, perfection-aspiring, and, on occasion, even predatory side of wellness culture. But, it doesn’t have to be that way.That’s what we’re exploring in today's episode with community organizer and wellness activist Kerri Kelly. Kerri is the founder of CTZNWELL, a movement that is democratizing well-being for all. As a descendant of generations of firemen and first responders, Kerri has dedicated her life to kicking down doors and fighting for justice. She's been teaching yoga for over 20 years and is known for making waves in the wellness industry by challenging norms, disrupting systems, and mobilizing people to act. Kerri is the author of the forthcoming book American Detox: The Myth of Wellness and How We Can Truly Heal, and through her work and her advocacy, she's been instrumental in translating the practices of wellbeing into social and political action and working in collaboration with community organizers, spiritual leaders, and policymakers to transform our systems from the inside out. Today, I get the pleasure of chatting more about her ideas, activism, and all the ins and outs of wellness culture through her lens. And in this conversation, you'll hear us talk about the aftermath of 9/11 and how loss and grief pushed Kerri into the world of wellness; we explore wellness as we've come to know it today and its transformation into a symbol of luxury, the divisiveness of the movement, the deep systematic problems that plague its culture, and what we can do about it. So excited to share this conversation with you.You can find Kerri at: Website | Instagram | CTZNWELL | CTZN PodcastIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Aviva Romm, MD about women’s health.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book Sparked | My New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.K12Green Chef: Use code goodlifeproject135 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

People need to stop seeing themselves as allies or as paying their privilege forward or like doing the right thing for other people. People of privilege actually have to start to see that they have skin in the game, that they too are vulnerable inside of this system and that their lives are also being threatened. And I feel like if people don't actually wake up to that, they're never going to be all in for the change that we need. Okay, so yes, we've all heard the call to self-care and some of us have actually heeded it in some way. But what if beyond the core concept of taking care of your physical, emotional, and spiritual self, there was a deeper engine of discord and even exclusion at play in the well-being industry. So wellness or well-being, no doubt,

is a key element of living a good life. But wellness as a concept over the years has become a bit of an industry, maybe even more than a bit of an industry. And along with that has come both incredible benefits and also a host of co-opted problematic ideals, offerings, and structures. And a look under the hood often reveals an arguably even toxic element of the industry with deep cracks in its foundation that threatened to reveal the inequitable, exclusionary, sometimes shame-driven, perfection-aspiring, and on occasion even predatory side of the wellness culture, but it doesn't have to be that way. That's what we're exploring in today's episode with community organizer and wellness activist, Keri Kelly. So Keri is the founder of Citizen Well, a movement that is democratizing

wellbeing for all. As a descendant of generations of firemen and first responders, Keri has dedicated her life to kicking down doors and fighting for justice. And she's been teaching yoga for over 20 years and is known for making waves in the wellness industry by challenging the norms, disrupting systems and mobilizing people to act largely in the name of fixing what's not right and expanding access. Carrie is the author of the book American Detox, The Myth of Wellness, and How We Can Truly Heal. And through her work and her advocacy, she has been instrumental in translating the practices of wellbeing into social and political action and working in

collaboration with community organizers, spiritual leaders, and policymakers to transform our systems from the inside out. And today, I had the pleasure of chatting more about her ideas, activism, and the ins and outs of wellness culture through her lens and experience. This conversation, you'll hear us talk about the aftermath of 9-11 and how loss and grief, very deep and personal, pushed Keri into the world of wellness.

We explore wellness as we've come to know it today and its transformation into often a symbol of luxury, the divisiveness of the movement, the deep systematic problems that plague its culture and what we can do about it. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.

So as we sit here having this conversation, you're launching this new book, American Detox, into the world. And the central premise really is that we have this massive wellness industry in this country, largely in the US. I mean, it's all over the world, but the focus is more here because some weird things have happened in the context of the wellness industry in this country in particular. And I was fascinated because I have been in and out of that industry in different ways for a couple of decades. In the early 2000s, owning a fitness club and then owning a yoga studio and teaching yoga for

seven years in New York City in the shadow of 9-11. So there are these interesting points of intersection because 9-11 is also something that sounds like it was a powerful and exciting incident. So I want to get into your take on the wellness industry, because I happen to believe it's really broken too, but I had different reasons and you gave me a different context, a new lens into understanding some of the things that I've been grappling with for years. That's fascinating to me. But let's take a little bit of a step back and work our way up to that. I'm curious, what was your introduction to the wellness industry?

Well, I found wellness after 9-11. It sounds like you may have had a similar experience where, well, everyone was impacted by 9-11. That's one of our kind of shared historical events. My stepdad was a fireman. He was in Ladder 15, a couple blocks away from World Trade Center. So he was one of the first people to respond. He actually saw the second plane hit the second tower and redirected the ladder in the direction of the second tower before he even got the call. And so anyway, the story begins for me with this massive disruption, right? This enormous intervention

into everything I thought I had known about everything, quite frankly, right? Everything I knew to be normal and safe and real really came down with those towers. And so in the aftermath of that, I, you know, I didn't, I was lost, quite frankly, I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to believe. I didn't want to keep going on the same sort of predetermined should climb the ladder path I had inherited from culture and from society. And so I was really desperately seeking and I turned to everything. I turned to alcohol and therapy and know, work was my addiction really more than anything. And then I found yoga and meditation. And that was, you know, I didn't have words for it at the time, but that was the only place I really felt something. You know, I was like, oh, I think

I'm dissociated most of the time in the wake of this unimaginable event, this disruption in my life, this grief. And I would hit my mat and I would cry and I would fall apart. And I didn't know what was happening, but I knew something was happening. And so that was sort of my four-way into this culture, into these practices, these ancient practices, these refuges, right, where we can meet ourself and be with ourself despite everything. And so that was the opening for me. And I just wanted to know more. I was like, I want, you know, I want more of what this is. I know this is changing me in ways that I can't comprehend. And so that is what really put me on the path. That's what got me curious. It got me hungry. I had a deep yearning, if not desperation, for everything wellness. And it was like the first time in a really long time I felt meaning.

I could actually understand what was happening to me and also feel like there was a pathway for healing. Yeah. And I think you're not alone in, you know, around that time, turning, turning, both turning inward, outward, trying to cope, self-medicate, like all the things. Like, I think everybody just sort of said, like, let me try this. Let me try this. And in New York City in particular, you know, I just remember people literally wandering around in a daze, just saying, what can I do?

What can I do? What can I do? Yeah. And I write a little bit about that in the book because there's sort of like two sides to that coin. And I remember that so deeply. I remember in the immediate aftermath, there was this beautiful emergence of humanity, right?

We were all vulnerable in that moment. And people showed up in ways I never had seen before. Like I just didn't, like I felt community in a way I had never felt in my life, in my, you know, small little white picket fence, you know, town outside of Manhattan. And Rebecca Solnit wrote this amazing book called A Paradise Built in Hell, which speaks to how there's this aperture in the aftermath of horrific, you know, natural and manmade disasters, where people rise to the occasion and become their best selves. And then there's this other perspective that Naomi Klein writes about called the shock doctrine, which is the way in which people and systems and

corporations and power come in in those really vulnerable moments and exploit our vulnerability, right? And take advantage and try to like make profit. So anyway, so like, I just like, I'm just kind of like speaking to like the contradiction of like, because I, you know, I kind of was in like also a stupor of like, oh my God, this is so amazing and beautiful. And then I was like, you know, and then the war, right. And then I was like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah. And it was really just jarring on so many levels. And I had that same experience, like the six months or so following 9-11. And at that point, not only had I just opened this place that I hoped would be a place of community and healing, but I was also married with a new

home and a six month old baby living in Hell's Kitchen, New York. A three-month-old baby living in the city. And I knew people that didn't come home that day just like everybody else did, like who was even remotely a part of the New York community. Of course. And yet, you know, and in those six months, I felt this just profound sense of like what you described, brotherhood and sisterhood and fellowship and sistership. And in ways that I'd never felt in my life, especially in New York City. And there was this other narrative happening, too. And there was this additional narrative, which I really hadn't tuned into until not too long ago in a conversation with Valerie Kaur. Which was if you happen to be somebody who had darker skin, who looked like, you know, observably, maybe Middle Eastern in some way, shape or form to the wide eye, it was a terrifying

time. It was an absolutely terrifying time to be in that window. So it's really fascinating to sort of look at these moments from your perspective and your experience and think that that was, quote, the experience. And then with the benefit of time and expansion and learning and conversation, realize, oh, this is way more complex than I understood. And relationship. I mean, I write about Valerie in my book because we have this, I mean, I think it's a miracle

that I met her, quite frankly, you know, and I talk about how changed I was by meeting her. And I had already been like, you know, on a path of like, wait a minute, you know. But to meet someone whose story paralleled mine, like so completely, you know, I mean, like arguably my stepdad was probably one of the first to, you know, firemen, first responders to die. He, you know, the first, the second tower came down first and Balbir Sodhi, you know, Valerie's uncle was the first, you know, Sikh American to be murdered in the aftermath of 9-11. And so like, we were both really taken aback by how interwoven and completely paradoxical our stories were. And yet knowing each other helped us see the whole picture with so much more clarity and compassion and skill, quite frankly. We've built an entire relationship on telling this sort of whole story of 9-11 that doesn't just include

the first responders and all those that we lost on that day, but that includes Bobby or Sodi and the millions, the millions of people who have been killed, you know, harassed, deported because of that day. Yeah. I mean, it really is. It's a different context. And I think so many of us are starting, are really trying to more intentionally widen our aperture right now. I say, okay, so what is beyond my story, my personal narrative, which is real. It was my lived experience, my health experience. But, you know, so it's not an either or, you know, like, but your story isn't valid. This is what was really happening. It's a yes and. It's like, yes, that was your lived experience. And at the same time, there was a profoundly different

experience for so many different people coming from so many different perspectives. And I think that's, that's part of the conversation that sometimes we lose, right? Is that we feel like we have to choose whose narrative is the quote most correct, rather than saying, no, you know, we, we all experienced something profoundly differently, and they were all true to our experience and to what was happening in the world. Rather than saying you have to invalidate one person's experience to validate in others. experience has been so centered for 21 years, you know, I feel like I have a responsibility to use that platform or that, you know, focus to bring attention to all of those who were lost, who were killed. And right. So, so, so any, so I'm like a hundred percent with you. Like there's, there's something like beautiful and whole, right. About the ways in which our stories intersect,

even if they're not all pleasant. And, you know, when some of our stories and narratives are centered, right. And made dominant or prioritized, you know, so I, so I try to do that. I tried to on nine 11, I grieve right. For my stepdad, you know, which to this day just is gut wrenching to me. Grief is just so amazing that way, that it's just endless. And I include, right, in my grieving, right, in my speaking out, in my advocacy, in my storytelling, I include my grief over Balbir Sodi and all, you know,

there's so many others that were lost and continue to be lost, right? To imperialism and to war and to violence. Yeah. It's not elevating or prioritizing. It's just sort of like, let's get closer to the bone on everything that really is going on around us. So for you, this experience in the early days, it sends you into the world of wellness with a focus on yoga and meditation. That begins to have this transforming effect on you or revealing or liberating effect. And as so often happens with that practice in particular, you know, you go into it with one particular objective, even though you're not supposed to have an objective. You know, we all kind of want something out of it going into it. But it sounds like the unfolding for you starts to take you to a place that was way beyond the reason that you first stepped into a yoga studio or room.

Yeah. When I look back now, what you were talking about before around the widening of the perspective, the widening of the aperture, I actually think inevitably that happened because of the practice, right? I went in sort of like with this tunnel vision and I was like, you know, like I wanted, I was all in, it was like church for me. You know, it was like a, um, you know, I was raised Catholic and I was kind of a recovering Catholic and, and it gave me like a new spiritual foundation in my life. And it was helping me navigate this really impossible moment. Um, I felt myself all in. And yet there was, you know, like the beauty of the practice is that it's like, if you do it, it is all revealing, right? It's inevitable that it's going to expose the things that you're not seeing or the things

that are in the shadows. And so that's exactly what happened for me, right? Like I was like, all blissed out, like doing all the things. And I mean, I was like wearing my mala beads and Lululemon pants and, you know, like preaching yoga to everyone who would listen, quite frankly, which was really annoying to my family and to my husband at the time and to everyone around me. And inevitably, I started to see the world with more clarity. And often what I saw it coincidentally, my yoga studio at the time was in Soma, south of market in San Francisco on Folsom and forth. And, and it was, you know, at the time, you know, it's now become a different place many years

later. But at the time, there was a ton of poverty and homelessness in that area. And the yoga studio was sort of like plopped in the midst of that. And so we'd have this like blissed out experience in the studio, like everything is perfect and we're enlightened. And, you know, and then I would literally walk out onto the street and there was a group of homeless youth that literally like lived in the stoop coming out of the studio. And so I, you know, as I did the yoga and as I continued on my path, it started to change me and I started to see in ways that I couldn't unsee. And then I started to get really curious, right? About like, wait a minute, like, why do I get to feel so good and so

blissed out and so, you know, enlightened, you know, in this wellness experience when people are struggling to survive, much less be well, when people don't even have a home where they're starving, you know, and San Francisco is this kind of microcosm where inequality is just so, it's not just deep, it's in your face. Like it's everywhere you look. You can't deny that there are people who are really well off and taken care of and resourced. And there are people who don't have basic human needs. And so like you either can choose to look the other way, right. And stay in the stupor, stay in your sort of bubble, or you can see. And once I saw, I couldn't shake it. Like I just, and that was like, it created like dissonance and discomfort in my body that just became a new practice for me, quite frankly. I was like,

okay, how do I navigate? How do I reconcile this? That I've benefited so much from this practice, that I get so much from this practice, that I find so much meaning in this practice. And yet people are dying all around me who don't have access, not just to wellness, but to housing and healthy food, right? So anyway, so that really stirred me up and started to just point me in the direction of this sort of other practice of like, what does it mean for everyone to be well? This this deep questioning, this inquiry that that kind of inspired, powerful invitation, you know, because you're doing this practice that is not only in the physical setting of it. It sounds like you would just literally every single day, it's reminding you that there's a division. There's the folks that get to walk up the stairs into the studio and there's the folks who are out on the street.

That's right. You know, and they don't mix. And at the same time, the nature of the practice itself is fundamentally to, you know, if you really deepen into it beyond the physical practice, is to help you see more clearly what is real. And to yoke. Right. To yoke, to become whole, to unite. And yet, ironically, these practices are reinforcing a division and a deep divide, right, between those who get to be well and those who don't. Yeah. division and a deep divide between those who get to be well and those who don't. Yeah. Do you have a take on how things got that way in this country? Because my understanding when the practice was first brought to the US, that it was kind of living

in the shadows, in the side conversations. And it wasn't, there wasn't this sort of like the elitist separation between the practice. It was almost like, almost like any hippie who wanted to show up, anyone. And there were very wealthy people, there were famous musicians, but there were also people who, it was much more open and inclusive and inviting. And somehow along, and I think it stayed that way for a fairly long time, but somewhere along the about, actually, because Vivekananda came over in like a deeply politicized state, came over to actually speak out at the Parliament of Religions against imperialism, against the way. Like if folks want to know like how yoga got here, that's where I point people because yoga has become, you know, so, you know, divorced from politics. And so like, that's, that was one point of entry. And I like to point back to that because that to me affirms, right, that is the kind of history that I think we need to remember when we debate about whether yoga is political or meditation is political in that ridiculous debate that goes on. But then yoga had another point of entry in the 20th century when Indra

Devi came over, right? Indra Devi was a white woman from Eastern Europe who studied with Krishnamacharya and migrated to the US, right? And brought with her yoga after the Immigration Act of 1924. This is why this is such a political conversation, which put quotas, right, on countries like India, on immigration from countries like India. And so it was easier for a white woman to come through at that time and to bring this lineage, right? And she, I believe she actually landed in the East Coast at first, but she eventually settled in Los Angeles and started to bring these practices to the Hollywood elite, right? And she, I believe she actually landed in the East Coast at first, but she eventually settled in Los Angeles and started to bring these practices to the Hollywood elite, right? And so if you wonder how wellness became a luxury item, right, like you can point directly to that origin, right? That's when it really took hold in the 1940s and 50s and 60s and became sort of this like coveted, you know, I'm using the quotations exotic, right?

Like that was like some of the lore for, you know, white Hollywood, wealthy women in Los Angeles. And so, yeah, so there's a deep foundation there, right, in American culture for wellness as luxury, right, for wellness of the privileged, right, that you can point right back to that moment. Which is interesting, because, you know, where it came from originally, it's sort of like, it's like this open source thing. It's much less so. And in fact, my understanding of Indra Devi's journey also with Krishnamacharya is that it took many, many, many years. Yeah. She was a woman stepping into what was then practiced in India as only a male tradition and took years and years and years for her to even sort of like gain the ability to be taught by this sort of like luminary in the space.

And then she becomes the ambassador when she comes here, which is so the whole like the back and forth, the dynamic is fascinating. It was messy, right? I mean, even to call it an open source practice isn't quite true in a caste society, right? Yeah, this is true. Very true. So, right. So like, so I appreciate what you're saying because like, it's not, it's not one story. It's not one binary take.

It's extremely messy. And there's even, I read, you know, one of the interesting things I learned about Krishnamacharya's journey is that when he developed the asana practice that we understand as yoga, the physical practice that we understand as yoga now, he was sponsored by the state to actually puticting lines, how we got here, quite frankly, how we got here as a wellness, a Western wellness culture, how yoga came to be what it is today. And the other thing I just want to name is that you kind of asked, like, well, how, you know, how did wellness get this way? You know, one of the other things I explore in this book is the way in which the history of wellness in the U.S. intersects with the history of the U.S. just in general, like the all-American culture that was steeped in the ideas of the Enlightenment, right? That was born on the ground of genocide, right? That built an economy on the backs of slaves, right? Like, so wellness is not immune to that, right? Wellness is not inoculated from that culture. Wellness is deeply steeped inside, right, of that water. And so anyway, so that too cannot be separate from how we got here as a wellness culture, as a toxic wellness culture. A hundred percent. I mean, it all informs where we are and sort of like what has emerged over time. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

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You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. Okay, so you just described, you used the word toxic wellness culture, and you've talked about the myth of wellness, and these things are all sort of intersect. So when we think about, okay, so these

practices and, and fundamentally, I think also on the one hand, you want to distinguish between practices, many of which have been around for thousands of years and generating incredible openness and healing and clarity and the culture of the mechanisms that bring them into different places, into different communities, into different populations. By the way, in my mind, not entirely different from religion. Yes, absolutely. There's the Dharma. There's the fundamental ideas, the fundamental teachings, so many of which are filled with grace and openness and empathy and compassion and service.

And then when they intersect with structure, often in a Western tradition, things kind of go off the rails a little bit. frankly, have not just become misunderstood and corrupted, but have been divorced from their origins, have been stolen, have been commodified and appropriated and whitewashed, right? And so, yeah, that feels important too, that it's not just about the ways in which in the structure, it's about what people have done with them in order to benefit and profit. Yeah. So you talk about this thing that you describe as the myth of wellness and this sort of like an insidious wellness culture that has a couple of different key things that happen within that culture. Walk me through this a little bit. Yeah. I mean, I sort of, you know, a lot of what I was exploring were the ways in which wellness

has been indoctrinated in just the broader dominant culture, how wellness has morphed and adapted into replicating systems of power and toxic ideologies that are a part of the broader America that we live in. And I want to share that. I talk about these things from my own experience because I feel like in my own unraveling, you know, like there, each of them were exposed in like different contexts, right? Like I was like, oh, wait, you can't buy wellness, you know, but, but yeah. So I talk a little bit about the intersection of wellness and colonization, right. And the ways in which these practices for those of us who are white and Western, are in fact not ours. And yet, not only do most of us teach them, but our bodies are used as a representation of what

wellness looks like. We benefit and profit off of them. And how that really mirrors the legacy of imperialism, right? And going into other places and taking what is not ours, right? And often harming the people from whom they come from that medicine. I talk about the intersection of wellness and inequality, right? And how there's like a deep privilege in this country, you know, if you want to benefit from not just like the practices of wellness, right? I'm just thinking about like meditation and yoga, but like benefit from like the time that one might have or the money or the access, right? To even like choose to engage in those resources.

I did a lot of work when I, many years ago, when I first started Citizen Well with SEIU and the fight for 15, right? The fight for a living wage, right? Our federal minimal wage still is $7.25, right? Which is poverty pay, right? Which is just like unethical and immoral, quite frankly. And so much of what I would hear from the folks that I was, you know, in solidarity with is like, I don't have time for meditation. Like I need to like feed my kids. I need to put food on the table. I need to pay my rent. Right. And that really reframed how I understood what wellness is.

Right. Wellness isn't just like these like, you know, rituals or practices or what you see in magazines or what you buy from Goop. But it's like a living wage and it's housing and it's right access to healthy food and it's ending systemic racism. So that started to change the way in which I understood what wellness really is and also the way in which we practice wellness. I talk about the intersection of wellness and individualism, right? Individualism, which is this ideology that has deeply informed the revolution, who America chose to become, the language of our constitution and our democracy, the culture, who America chose to become, you know, the language of our constitution and our democracy, the culture of the self-made man and manifest destiny, right? Like all of that

is shaped by those sort of enlightenment ideas and how that has convinced people that if you drink green juice and, you know, can do a lotus and drive a hybrid, that, you know, you're a conscious citizen, that you're enlightened and that you're doing your part and that you are well. And in fact, I posit in this book that you are in fact not well on an individual basis when so many are suffering, when so many are denied basic human needs to survive, much less thrive. And then of course, I talk about the intersection of wellness and whiteness, which has been a really big part of my journey as like a white yoga teacher who is, you know, every day unlearning and learning again, the consequences and the implications of whiteness

in my body and in the people around me and in my place, not just in society, but in wellness, right? What that affords me in the context of wellness. So anyway, so those are just a couple of the myths that I think were sold, right? Or that are propped up or that are celebrated in the dominant culture of wellness that are in fact holding us back from both individual and collective wellness. Yeah. And I want to really talk a little bit more about some of those in detail. It's interesting, the broader idea of, you know, like wellness is available to wellness the way that we sort of often think about it is available to a limited number of people. I remember a number of years back, I've gone deep into the research and literature in the

world of positive psychology. Yeah. And for years, there was this literature that always said, you know, like after a certain amount of income, happiness levels off, it doesn't matter. You know, there's sort of this lockstep, you know, you get happier until you make about 75 grand a year in the US. And then you could double that, but your happiness doesn't change. But there was a more recent body of work that looked at a much broader set of data that was also international. And they tease out the difference between happiness and what they call subjective well-being, which is kind of the things that you're talking about contributing to this just like sense of wellness, you know.

And what they saw was that, no, actually, the more you made, and they measured up to, I think, about $250,000 a year, like there was no fall off. You kept saying that you had a stronger sense of subjective well-being, even if they could say, well, you're kind of like your happiness effect fell off way lower. And people were trying to figure out, well, what's behind that? And a lot of what was behind that was access to what a lot of us would look at as sort of like good medical care, you know, like the access to really good resources, to healthcare, to wellbeing, to providers. To nature. Right. And that money. To time, to art. Did by that. And the more money you made, the more you had the time to do it, the more you

had access to higher level people to, you could kind of skip the line in a lot of different ways. And that was eyeopening for me because you're like, oh, so there really, there is this ladder that we don't often talk about in that world. And also what you're saying, you know, which is, I think another important thing to reinforce, and I want to make sure I'm getting it right, is, you know, what are we talking about when we're actually talking about wellness? You know? Because I think a lot of us go to the fundamental stuff that we do, moving our body, drinking eight glasses of water a day, having access to... But in fact, it is this much bigger combination of things that go into it.

So when you use the word wellness, you're using it in a more expansive way than I imagine a lot of other people would when they think about it. Well, and I think that's like the fundamental question I'm living with and I'm asking in this book is like, how do we be well in a toxic, unequal and unjust world? And I don't believe I answer it in this book. I actually don't think it's my job to answer it. I think part of the problem is that people in power, people who look like me, people with money and privilege and, you know, white, able-bodied, skinny, you know, flexy, you know, people, intellectual people have been deciding what wellness is for everyone else for a really long time. And so part of like what I wanted to do in this book is actually get out of the way of that question of like,

what is it? And just ask like, what isn't it? You know, or what, you know, what's, what's in the way of wellness, right? And that's sort of what I tried to tackle in this book. And that's what I try to tackle in my life. Like what is in the way of my own, you know, you know, that question brought me to wellness, right? That seeking of like, what, what's here for us? What does this mean? You know, how, how can I heal? How can I be whole? And I feel like I'm still living into that question and I don't know the answer, but I'm getting really clear about what's the, what's in the way of it and what barriers, right, are holding us back, not just from wellness. I mean, at this stage, you know, I think we can

all agree that it's also holding us back from collective survival. Like we are staring down some like really enormous, devastating crises, you know, accelerating and simultaneous crises. And so, so part of me is also like, there's an urgency also to the question, I feel like that feels real, you know, in this moment, given what we just saw with this, you know, this ongoing global pandemic and climate change and systemic inequality. It's, if we don't actually like lean into this question, like we're in trouble. Yeah. And I think a lot of us are feeling that, you know, if you certainly had the ability to opt out, you know, effectively, maybe some people still do, but it's, it's almost like, how can you wake up and look at the world and still say, not my job.

Yes. And I feel like it's getting harder and harder for anyone to justify that position. One of the other things that you mentioned is this notion of the emphasis on the individual over the collective. And within a larger power dynamic, which is steeped in inequity in the first place. And then you say, well, let's focus all on the individual. First, it's about wanting to live your best life on an individual level. Um, but then also on taking care of yourself, like wellness for me. Um, and in fact, I've had some really interesting conversations with well-known spiritual leaders, leaders of faith who, when I ask about, let's have a conversation about what's ailing society

right now, some big structural issues, some big things. And very often the advice is, it all comes down to individual decisions, to individual thoughts, individual feelings. So we're going to focus on practices that will allow each individual to find a place of peace, a place of grace, a place of compassion and openness. And I don't disagree that that matters, but again, it's a yes and. There's bigger stuff going on here. And it's like what you describe and you write about, and I'd love to hear more, is this notion that at a certain point, the focus on the individual not only is not enough, but it's taking away from focus on the much the ways in which people tend to their grief and to their pain and to their experience really matters. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, like I said, it's not a this or that.

It's a yes and. But the and really hasn't gotten a lot of attention. Yeah, and that was the thing I was going to say. And that has been the dominant narrative. So it's not that it's invalid, but it's not only has it been the dominant narrative, it's been the thing that has been sold to us, right? Because actually, that is the very thing that keeps capitalism alive, right? That keeps big wellness going, right? And that keeps privilege, right? Like that keeps people who get to have the things, you know, so that idea only upholds, right, a deeply unequal system. And I actually think what you're describing is one of the most toxic, you know, not just like weapons of wellness, but also of like, you know, modern health care and of, you know,

many of the political narratives that we have. This idea that personal solutions will solve deep, systemic problems, right? This idea that they're, you know, good racists and not a system of racism, right? This idea that if you're sick, it's your fault, right? Like, this is a really, it's not only unhelpful, but actually it's not working. Like, you can just look around and you can see that this theory of like, you know, individual even I'm even thinking about like the, you know, that antidote to climate change that people just needed to take shorter showers and compost more.

Right. It's not that that is irrelevant, but it's it's ridiculous. Right. Given, right, the whole wholesale degradation that's being done by corporations. Right. And corporations and by people and systems in power. And so anyway, so that piece, right, that these small – I'm even thinking about just like the pandemic and the idea that you could boost your immune system to solve a global deadly pandemic, right? When you actually say them out loud, they're ridiculous, right? And and they're not working. And the evidence is everywhere that this is actually not the way not only for everyone to be well, but for us to be well. I mean,

I think one of the interesting things about the way the way things are going, given like, how undeniable the interdependence is in client in climate change and in the in the global pandemic right is that like you actually are not immune and in fact you are not separate you are not separate from the suffering all around you you too are impacted you too are being threatened right in deeply disproportionate ways based on your social location, for sure. But that felt like a really important shift when I was writing this book, is that people need to stop seeing themselves as allies or as like, you know, paying their privilege forward or like doing the right thing for other people. Like people actually have to start to see people of privilege,

that they have skin in the game, that they too, right, are vulnerable inside of this system and that their lives are also being threatened. And I feel like if people don't actually wake up to that, they're never gonna be all in for the change that we need. Yeah, no, I think it's such an important idea. And I mean, one of the things that I'm hearing is it's this notion that, okay, so even if you don't buy into anything that we're saying, even if it's about your own self-interest, even if you just want to feel better and live a better life and be healthier and have better mental health and be less stressed, less depressed, less anxious, even if your primary motivation is about you. The truth is you can do

check all the boxes for the personal practices and take all the things. And yet, if you live within this larger culture or society where there's so much strife, there's so much loss, there's so much suffering, there's so much anxiety, there's so much inequity all around you. Even if you think you get to opt out of it, it is affecting you in a profound and often negative way every single day. So even if it's just because you want, like out of self-interest, you know, which is not the, you know, like quote holiest motivation, but still, if it leads you to say, to think more expansively, like I think the net effect of that, you know, is still that we start to look at the broader systems and say, okay, so, so like you said, like, I'm not, you know, not as an ally, not as someone who's quote, passing your privilege forward, but like,

you're in this. Yeah. And you might not think it's affecting you because you've quote opted out. But it is we're all in this, whether we want to be or not. Yeah. One of the more interesting statistics that I discovered in the research of this book is that before the pandemic, because once the pandemic happened, obviously, it shifted life expectancy rates, especially among people of color because of white supremacy. But before that, actually, the demographic whose life expectancy was on the decline versus all other demographics was older white wealthy men, which I think is fascinating, right? And that's some of kind of like what I tried to ask myself in this book is not just like, what is, you know, all of these toxic myths? What is that? What is that costing everyone, meaning other people? I was like, what is the cost to my life

and to my wellbeing and to my health? Not because I only care about myself, but because it means that I'm actually a part of something bigger than myself. And, you know, it's been really helpful for me to understand the framework of culture, right air that we breathe or the water that we're swimming in. can escape the horrors of what's happening in the world, or you can purify yourself, right, of the toxic and unhealthy narratives in dominant culture, or you can build an alternative universe on Mars, right? Like that's happening. This sort of utopia that lives outside of the bubble, when in fact, that's actually not how culture and structures work, right? Unless you're living on an ashram somewhere far away and not participating and, you know, like you're a part of this. You're shaped by it. You're internalizing its messages,

whether you like it or not. And that's been helpful for me both to understand how culture works and how we're shaped by it, but also to understand that there are no like good guys and bad guys, right? Like there's no, like no one is immune to this toxic culture. And so the practice sort of that, that I've been, you know, moving through is just making visible, right? What has been invisible to so many of us, especially those of us who benefit it for so long, naming it, you know, pointing to it, saying, what's wrong with this is fucked up. Like there's gotta be a better way. Right. And then doing my part to try and dismantle, disrupt, deconstruct what has been upholding these really, you know, unhealthy, unwell systems for so long so that we can

build and imagine something different. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10.

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One of the other things that you bring up that I thought was really interesting is this sort of the way that the concept, or I would even probably describe it as a standard of quote normal has evolved and how that plays into the notion of wellness and access and what we aspire to or quote should aspire to. when I went down this rabbit hole, actually some of what I uncovered that feels even more sinister was how much of wellness is selling us the idea that we're not just better humans, but that we're superhuman, that we're actually not, I'm thinking about like bulletproof and, you know, and those are like cool products. Like I like bulletproof coffee, but you know, but like, but the promise that you can be superhuman, that you can build your immune system up to be superior to a deadly pandemic is a really funky direction for wellness that almost takes normativity to a whole other level. Like it's not just about like what is a normal wellness experience or what is a normal wellness body. I think a lot of the direction that these, you know, dominant products and practices are going in is actually the promise that you can transcend your humanness, right? Which is like, you know, this absurd notion, right? And which I also think contributes to

the idea that people can dissociate, like they can become disembodied and they don't have to feel the discomfort of this moment. They don't have to feel the fear, right? Or the horrors, right? That we are a part of. So anyway, so like that took like the idea of like what is normal and what is normativity to like a whole other level for me. I was like, oh, it's not even just about what's normal. It's about like how to be better than normal, how to be perfect, right? How to be pure. And we know that there's a deep history, right, in America and around the world of normativity, of systems of power, of people in power propping up certain types of bodies,

right, as the beacon, right, as the example of what should be centered or what should be normalized or what we should build systems and structures and resource. And you need just look to the history of disability, right, to see the ways in which not only have we prioritized bodies that we have deemed and constructed as normal, but we have disposed of and excluded and under-resourced, right, and oppressed many bodies that we have decided are not good enough, are not living up to this ideal, which most of us don't live up to that ideal, quite frankly, right? Yeah. I mean, we don't and often shouldn't. I mean, it's not, it's not, it's somebody set the aspiration and so I was like, okay. So, and it's interesting also because when you think about it in this sort of like the general wellness context and you think about the aspiration, you know, like often it was, you know, like a particular skin color, a particular body type, a particular body fat percentage. And then it

became, but this is also, this means that you also likely have like a set of health markers that are better for you and will reduce your risk for disease. And in fact, you know, like sort of like what I've seen is a growing wave of research is now showing that, well, not so much, you know, like, yes, those things, the deeper markers matter. We all want to be, we want to be less sick and we want to have less mental illness. But the external things that people have held up as sort of like the ultimate standard, they're not super connected very often to the deeper markers of what it actually means to feel better in the world.

That's well, and they're also not science, like they're, you know, I'm thinking about like the myth of obesity, right? And, and how that, you know, that idea is even being disproven that, that many of these ideas of medical superiority or medical normativity are in fact constructed by scientists and doctors, many of whom are white and male and privileged, right? So it's like, so like that's some of the questioning I think that is really essential, but is also like essential to us actually being well, to your point, like to us actually having an experience of like what it means to feel good and be whole and thrive, right? Not according to like the DSM, right? But according to like our own body and our own intuition. And the other thing I just want to add to what you were saying is that, is how,

you know, historically, a lot of those markers were rooted in capitalism. They were rooted in productivity, right? That, you know, industry wanted productive bodies, bodies that could work, bodies that could be in and of themselves, right? A product or a commodity, a machine, right? And how inhumane that is, right? How unnatural that is to see people, right? To measure people, to qualify or disqualify people according to their productivity within a system, right? That's, that's like a machine that's just like driving towards profit and not towards humanity and relationship and health. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because you have a sort of wellness industry that's been set up to invite people to aspire to particular ideal. And then even within that, like that's only if you actually get to opt into that

industry in the first place. And which, which almost makes you wonder, like, do the folks who don't, is, is there, when you don't have the power or the privilege to opt into that particular set of offerings and the notion of aspiring to a particular ideal, which tends to be brutalizing to almost everyone who wants to or tries to aspire to it. Is there a certain benefit? I mean, you never want, there's no benefit to not having access to better healthcare and not having access to equal opportunity. There's no, but you know, it's almost, I think I'm trying to say is, like, are we punishing ourselves by stepping into that and by, like, not having access to this system, which can be fairly brutalizing in the first place?

You're dealing with a lot of other struggle, but you're also but you're effectively opting out of this one thing, which is being presented as the way to everything that you ever dreamed of, but in fact often isn't. And I don't mean in any way, shape or form to say, yay for the people who can't participate in the system. That's a horrible, there are a lot of inequities that need to be dealt with there. It's really complex. Ruby Sales says that inclusion implies that someone owns the table. And what you're saying It's really complex. One of the things I explore in this book is this idea of self-determined wellness. For some people, that might be okay people know what's better for people, like folks. And so like, how do we create the conditions where people can be in choice about what it means to be well and what they need to be well. And to your point, I agree that I think it's not going far enough to just create inclusion and really unequal, messed up, toxic, polluted, profit driven

systems, right? The healthcare system is, you know, wellness is like a good example of that, but healthcare, like, oh my God, you know, is real broken and by design. And so, yeah, so I think it also implores us to like reimagine what it is to thrive outside of the state, right? But I think that it's not that simple because I think sometimes, you know, when I, you know, I'm a big like burn it all down, you know, kind of activist, you know, because I'm fierce like that. And I think, you know, in that transition, a lot of people are going to suffer. A lot of people are going to be hurt and it's probably going to be the people who are most vulnerable. So I'm I'm I try to be like careful and discerning about how I hold that strategy, right? Because I believe it is true that we need to take, we need to tear down systems, right?

These systems are broken. They're not, they're not getting us where we need to go. And I think that transition is going to be really rough. And so, right. So I think like asking the question of like, what does it look like for us to take care of each other outside of the state? You know, how do we start to show up for each other in alternative, you know, subversive, creative ways is sort of part of the conversation that might, you know, allow us to actually move through whatever this transition is going to be. However, it is going to unfold to make sure that the folks who are most vulnerable, you know, I'm thinking it's like a do less harm strategy, you know? Yeah. I mean, and it's not about just a revolution in access.

It's about it's a revolution in access to what? You know, because it's like access to a wellness culture that actually increases toxicity to a certain extent. Maybe not, but access to something where, and it brings it back to what you were just saying, like, we have a certain choice and voice in what that looks like and what actually is truly nourishing for us and how we actually can interact with that. That's more powerful. You know, it's interesting as you're talking, you use the reference, like, I'm a burn it all down type of activist. Years ago, I went deep into the research from Gene Sharp, who is no longer with us, but he was in his 90s, like Professor Emeritus and kind of wrote the handbook for nonviolent revolution that this day is he said, you know, he said, when you message as your central goal to topple the existing paradigm or oppressor or source of pain, you very often lose because that's actually not the end state we're going after. What we're going after is the creation of something newer and better in its place that is so much more serving the needs of everybody that people just can't not step into that better thing. And simply doing so literally just removes the pillars of power from

the old paradigm. Whether it exists in name or not after that kind of doesn't matter. Eventually, oftentimes it crumbles because, you know, like you take one leg away and then another leg and it topples under its own. There's just no support for it anymore. But even if it's still there, you know, and it's, so it's interesting. Like, I think what, what you're talking about here is let's imagine what that better thing is. And let's imagine it in a way where we all have a say and where we all actually have the opportunity to create it and then step into it and invite more people into it. Yeah, I love that. And what you're saying also informs how we should organize. One of the biggest

questions I get from people is like, how do I go get my Trump loving cousin? Or, you know, how do I reach across the divide or the aisle? And, or how do I change people? It's really that what they're asking is how can I change people, right? How can I change people's political affiliation? How can I change their opinions? How can I persuade them to believe what I believe? And often, you know, like my organizing orientation is create a better place. Yeah. Create a better place, like show people what it looks like, right. To be in beloved community, show people what it looks like to move with both, you know, compassion and accountability, show people what it looks like to make a mistake and, you know, and survive it, you know, show people what it looks like to, um, to, you know, repair and reconcile, you know, show people what it looks like to, to, you know, repair and

reconcile, you know, show people what it looks like to disrupt, right? Like with all of the fierceness that it often demands, but still hold people's humanity, right? Like show people a different way. And I feel like what you're, what you're naming is, is not just like how we navigate, you know, the transformation of structures, but it's also how we organize each other. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And it's about acknowledging each person's humanity, even if they see the world profoundly different from you, and then building the thing that speaks to the deeper pain

that leads to their point of view on the level where it is so genuinely satisfying, the yearning that they have, that they can't not say yes to the solution. That's right. And I think that's, but that's really, really hard because it's not so hard to basically like stand up and say like, this is causing me pain,

like down with this. It's really hard to do the work of reimagining. But what could we build in its place that would be truly better? That is in my mind. And I mean, you've been in this in a much deeper way than I have for a long time. But my experience has always been that that is the vastly more complicated and more difficult challenge. And exciting and expansive and hope. You know, the last chapter of this book is called Reimagining Wellness. And what I did with that chapter is instead of answering the question, I just asked the

people that I like, love and trust. Because I'm also thinking about, you know, there are people who already are imagining who have for many generations been subversive in their thriving in the face of state oppression, state violence. And so I think one thing is that we can look to those people to show us a way, right? And not just to show us a way of what's next, but also to show us how it's been done, right? How it's already been done, how alternatives have already emerged, right? From many communities are just not done, right? How it's already been done, how alternatives have already emerged, right? From many communities are just not centered, right? We don't see them and

we don't know about them. And so my mentor, Taj James often says like, follow the people who know the way, right? And so that's what I did with this last chapter. I was like, I just went to my, I went to the people who I know are embodying a different kind of wellness, not the wellness that we keep talking about. That's like, you know, person in enlightened, you know, Lotus position meditating all day long, but, but actually doing like deep community organizing and, you know, um, and challenging structures and, and, um, and living into abolition. And so anyway, so like that, so I was like, I asked them like, what does this look like? You know, what is the way, right? What is the path? And that last chapter is just like, is actually like my favorite part of the entire book. And, and if I ever get to write another book, like that is actually the book I want to write.

I want to, I want to, you know, I want to ask that question of people who I believe know and have been doing it in really like unexpected and unlikely ways so that we can all start to consider this idea of wellness, of being well, of thriving in a toxic world in a really different way than the ways we're shown by the dominant wellness industry. I love that. And I love that you brought those voices together. People like Norma Wong and Mark Gonzalez and Pais James and Anasa Troutman and just like these coolest people ever. Right. And you're thinking,

because a lot of people do have that question at the end of something like this. And like, but what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And so I think the approach that you said, well, like, I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'm going to introduce you to, I think it was six people. And there are probably a whole lot more that you can find on your own and look at their examples, you know, and learn from them. And because they're the ones who have been out there doing this work for a long time. And let's start to, let's start to see, you know, like they're, they're, they're showing us the way. I thought that was a really, a really cool and valuable way to really bring it home, which feels like a good place for us to also come full circle in our conversation. So in this container of a good life project, if I offer beyond the structures and the constructs that we've inherited, right as like a really privileged person with lots of points of

access and agency and power and, and yet like not, you know, not not feeling right, real true belonging inside of these structures of membership, right and privilege and inequality. And so I feel like that's the thing I'm yearning for, like to have a good life is to belong, to feel like you belong, to know that everyone else feels like they belong to something that's bigger than themselves. And one of the last things that emerged for me in this book writing process that has stuck with me as I kind of look forward is this idea that there's more. There's more for all of us beyond these messed up things that have been passed down to us or beyond what we see on the surface, right? There's just more, more potential for goodness, more potential for thriving, more potential for wholeness,

more potential for relationship and community. And so anyway, so that's what I think a good life feels to me. That's what I desire, right? More than anything. Thank you. Thank you. This was rich. This was a great conversation. Thanks for having me. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation that we had with Aviva Ram about women's health and equity within that context as well. You'll find a link to Aviva's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing

here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.