Good Life Project - Lewis Howes: A Big Man With a Dark Secret and Heart of Gold

Episode Date: December 10, 2014

I'm rarely stunned. But this was one of those times...Lewis Howes is a radiant, towering hulk of a human being. Driven, energized, magnetic and successful. I've known Lewis for a number of years now and consider him a good friend.When he came to me earlier this year to share a dark, incredibly-painful secret from his childhood, I was floored. Did not see it coming. He'd been living with the pain and deep trauma of sexual abuse for decades. At the hands of another man, though he was just a boy.When he told me, a few months after, that he wanted to "go public" in an effort to help others who'd been through the same thing, I was hesitant.I didn't know how people might take it, or mis-attribute any unfounded motivations. But he was determined to make it happen and asking me to help guide the conversation. I knew how important it would be to create a "safe container," so I said yes.The conversation that unfolded was incredibly raw, real, vulnerable and powerful on so many levels. He recently shared it with his community, and now I'm sharing it with you.Please feel free to share this heartfelt conversation with anyone you think might find support or connection. Please also visit Lewis website and original post, where you can share your thoughts with him directly. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I've known Lewis Howes for probably the better part of five years now, and I consider him a pretty good friend. I thought I knew him pretty well, too, and I still do. But when he came to me last year to share something, share something that has been weighing deeply on his heart, deeply in his head and his soul since he was a small child, a deep secret, I was stunned, absolutely stunned. This was one of those moments where you ask yourself, wow, do we really ever talk about anything real? A little bit later, Lewis came to me and said he wanted to share what he shared with me publicly. And he asked if I would sit down with him and if we would record a conversation. He had shared it with a number of different friends.

And he felt like his experience, what happened to him when he was a small child, was something that he wanted to bring public to help other people who may have endured something similar. I was hesitant because I didn't know how people would receive it. But I agreed. And what unfolded, I think, was a pretty powerful conversation. Lewis shared that conversation with his own community a couple of months back. And I'm going to share it with you guys today because I think it's an important conversation. So here's Lewis House. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is good life project. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. completely open up to you guys about an experience that I had and I wanted to have him on here to really facilitate and support me in navigating this conversation and I think it's really important for me to have someone like Jonathan that I trust and that I feel comfortable with so that I can

talk to about this this subject that we're about to uncover. So thanks for coming on. Yeah. I mean, thank you for inviting me on. Thank you for your trust. Thank you for this opportunity to sort of like have this conversation so we can share something. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting.

We've been friends for a number of years now. And, you know, you, I think, appear to everybody on the outside to be this golden boy. Like, you can't do wrong. Everything you touch, you know, seems to light up, you know. And amazing projects, tremendous in business, tremendous in life, star athlete, all these things. And you've been interviewed, I i'm guessing hundreds of times now everyone from all over social media to mainstream media tv print radio and um written you i don't know done what 700 some odd webinars it's like people feel like they know you right and um and what's interesting is you know um you you've always told

this you know you've got your hero's journey which is like the story that you tell publicly about how you're a a pro athlete and you got injured and that was like the inciting that was like the big dark thing that you had to overcome that set you on this new journey and i always knew that like that was a story that i always knew you know we've been friends for a while now and then um it's probably a couple months ago where like you came to to me and dropped a different bomb you know and and and shared that there's actually a much bigger thing yeah that um that you've been trying to work your way through um that happened a lot earlier in life and it's just recently that you know it's really started to bubble up to the surface and you've been trying to work your way through that happened a lot earlier in life. And it's just recently that it's really started to bubble up to the surface and you've been able to start to process it.

So I guess we should just kind of dive into it rather than keeping people on the surface here. But something happened to you when you were a kid that changed everything. Yeah, it was one of my first memories that I can really remember as an experience. And I was sexually abused or raped by another man. And I was five years old. I'll kind of walk through a brief story of it. I was five years old. And my parents were working full-time jobs. There was four of us kids. So after school, we would all go to a babysitter, and I went to a specific babysitter.

I don't know if my sisters were at the same one. I think maybe one of them was because she was younger. The other one was probably going home because she was old enough. So after kindergarten, I remember my babysitter was like across the street or a block away from the school. So we would walk across the street and go hang out at the babysitter's for a couple hours until my mom, it was until it was 5 o'clock. Yeah, I mean, it's like latchkey kid.

A lot of people grew up that way, like every day. You're growing up in Ohio. It's a normal thing. Yeah, yeah. And I was probably there for a while like i don't even remember maybe six months or a year the whole year and i remember one specific day you know we'd go there we'd have we'd play in the backyard we'd play games whatever it would be and there would be like i remember always being peanut butter sandwiches peanut butter and jelly but i didn't like jelly so i'd always have peanut butter sandwiches because i was picky um and we just kind of hang out for a couple hours and one day one of my experiences i

remember is that the babysitter was a woman like probably in their 40s an older woman and i remember she had a son and i never i remember ever seeing the son until this one day. And he was probably in his late teens from what I remember. I only saw him once and he was, he had his door open to his room and he had Nintendo on. And at that time, you know, tendon was huge back in the late eighties.

And I was like, I want to play Nintendo. So I asked him, I said, Hey, can I play Nintendo? And you're like five years old, five years old. Yeah, I said, hey, can I play Nintendo? And you're like five years old. Five years old.

Yeah, I said, hey, can I play Nintendo with you? And he said, yes, but you have to do something for me. Or something along those lines. He said, yes, but we need to do something first. Or you have to do something for me. And I'll let you play. I said, OK, I'll do anything, whatever. So he just takes me into the bathroom,

and it was so nonchalant. When I remember back at it, it wasn't weird for him. It was so nonchalant what happened when he sexually abused me. And he had me get on the floor. I remember him having me get on the bathroom floor and performing the sexual act on me and i remember like just not knowing what was that it was right or wrong just kind of like i was doing this because i wanted to play nintendo and i thought that it was just normal and he like finished whatever he was doing,

and then I went and played Nintendo. And I remember during it, and it's a very vivid memory for me, actually. It's one of my first memories, and I remember during it. Because a lot of people don't remember anything. Yeah, yeah. I remember this vividly.

I remember the smell, the texture, texture taste the the room i remember everything like the sounds i remember this whole experience but i can't remember the guy's face like i can't remember what he looked like and if i saw him today i probably wouldn't remember so maybe i've run into him and i didn't know because i only only saw him that one time. It was for like an hour or something during this whole day. And I don't know what he's up to now. I don't know what's happened or what he's doing or anything. But I just remember it wasn't until later, probably when I was an early teen, did I realize what had happened.

So, I mean, at the end end of that on the day that it happened did you go home did you tell it or just i didn't say anything to anyone right first off because i kind of didn't know what was going on and yeah i just like went about my day my normal life and you know went home but i remember being you know it being a moment an experience that stacked up with other experiences that made me extremely defensive and guarded like throughout my childhood through my life and obviously i mean we're sitting how old are you now 30 i'll be 31 in a few days right so you're 31 and and and this is one of the most vivid memories of your childhood so it stuck with you for it's stuck a reason it's stuck and here's what's interesting

it's stuck and i didn't tell anyone about it my entire life i told my sociology professor my freshman year of college it was like a big class like 300 students like just a basic sociology class i told him at the end of like one of his lectures as he was talking about rape and sexual abuse and it kind of like came back in my memory i was like man was this a bad dream or this actually happened but i remember every year i would remember it like i could vividly remember it it wasn't a dream i remember it so vividly and i think i tried to make it act like it didn't happen like I tried to just put it out on my head and just like go about my life

like it didn't happen and I think being a straight man you know I tried to like block it even more because it was a man and it wasn't like a woman yeah and you're also I mean you're growing up in the Midwest yeah Ohio right you know

small town right and you're you know. Small town. Right, and you're an emerging athletic star in the town. There's a lot of attention and focus on you and your family because your family has a lot of prodigies in the family. And you're a man, you know, according to the Midwestern straight man definition. So do you remember at what point, as you kind of start start to revisit this like you

start to realize this wasn't normal yeah i remember in in like high school starting to be like this isn't normal and i think probably when i had like one of my first couple girlfriends in high school like we were started opening up and talking about you know everything and i didn't tell them this thing you know it's like we're telling each other our deepest darkest secrets and really getting intimate and vulnerable as like high school kids you know as much as a high school could kid can and i just remember being like oh you know is there anything about you i don't know you know or asking questions like that sharing our intimate and vulnerable moments. And I couldn't tell them this one thing.

It was like, I could tell them everything else. Like my brother going to prison, you know, my parents getting divorced and like the experiences I had as a kid with that. And, you know, I had a stealing problem when I was in middle school and I had to steal something every day about how I was opened up about how I couldn't read and was felt like stupid in class all the time, but I couldn't talk about this one thing. So I was like, why am I so ashamed of this thing that I went through? Is that, and that was like in your mind, it was shame. I was like extremely ashamed. I was like, when I thought

about it and as I was growing up into like puberty and just like yeah this athletic guy i was really ashamed i was really angry i was that's i was taken advantage of and i remember just feeling like someone took advantage of me without my control without my consent and that really pissed me off. And I look back at, if I'm looking at it from a uneducated psychologist point of view, I would see that that was one of the instances that made me really react in the ways I reacted in sports, in certain relationships. When things would happen, they were trigger points for me when I felt manipulated or attacked or abused emotionally, whatever it may be. Then I would kind of puff my chest and be the alpha male in the room and kind of like lash back to protect myself.

And so it's like you're responding not just to the immediate threat, but also to like this history since you were five. Everything that's ever happened to me, I'm like, I must protect myself. That type of attitude, ego, and a threatening, angry way as opposed to communicating in a loving... Was there ever any...

Because, I mean, God willing, I will never be on the wrong side of something like this. And I haven't, you know, in my life. But, you know, when you hear other people share their stories,

there's also sometimes people feel that there's not just a sense of shame, but also blame. Like there, was that a part of what you're, yourself talking anyway, or was it? You know,

as I reflect on it, I don't think I blame myself for any, for it happening, but I just feel like I felt really ashamed to the point where I thought if anyone knew about this, they wouldn't care about me. Like they wouldn't respect me. They wouldn't love me. They wouldn't love me.

They would make fun of me because I already felt like I was being made fun of because I wasn't strong in school. So I was like, I don't want to give people a reason to know something so vulnerable about me that they would just make fun of me more or hold it against me or whatever.

I was just in such fear to let anyone know about this my family didn't know again the only person i knew was a sociology professor that ended up transferring schools after one semester so i only you know saw him a couple times yeah and uh he was like you know i'm really sorry to hear this, but, you know, this is pretty common, actually. And you're probably not the only young boy that he did this to based on history and based on statistics. And I was just like, that's messed up. Yeah. You know.

What was it that stopped you from telling anyone in your family? I think, again, like shame. I didn't want them to, like, I don't know. I mean, can we share this? You grew up in a pretty faith-driven family. Yeah, yeah. Right? Where there was, you know, you were believers.

Yeah. My dad was a strong, like, Christian believer, yeah. Yeah. I mean, does that play any role in it? Maybe. I mean, my dad was the most amazing human being from ages 13 to 22. And he was an amazing human being, extremely loving father from when I was born to about 13. But I just lived in fear with him because of his authority,, he had some anger and probably wasn't happy

and fulfilled completely when I was a child. But then, like, when I was 12 or 13, it, like, switched and he was the happiest, most loving human being. So I remember just being in fear when I was a kid around my dad, although I never felt like he didn't love me. Like, he would always be there at night and tuck me in and, like, have me say a prayer and prayer and like tell me how much he loved me. But his actions were very like fearful for me as a young child when he was just like this big authoritative, you know, intelligent man.

And I was just like afraid not to mess up, you know. But I'm assuming most kids had like experiences where they're like, you know, afraid of their data sometimes. I don't know. But I never, you know, I just was like, I didn't want to upset him or my parents or my siblings. I wanted them to love me. I wanted to be loved by them and I wanted them to accept me. And, you know, I just, I don't think I was, had the self-awareness or the mindfulness at that age to be like this is what happened to me mom and dad and you know i was just trying to like get by you know one day at school at a time but you know with like having friends yeah so so you finally um you finally tell that first person and and he

you know when you're the sociology professor in college and he comes back with this whole, well, welcome to the club, almost like type of, this is really pretty common and it's probably happened to a lot more people. Where do you go from there? You know, that's when I was 18. And I remember,

I don't know. So it's like your freshman year in college. Freshman year in college. I remember just being like mad know, I remember, Freshman year in college. Freshman year in college. I remember just being like mad. I just remember being like, this is a messed up, why is this happening? Why do people do this?

You know, wanting to come from a place of protecting myself and really making sure this doesn't happen to other people around me. You know, it made me come up with a lot of thoughts like, is it safe to have kids if this potential is out there? So you're already sort of projecting that.

Well, it's just like, who can I trust? And why did I create this in my life? And why did it happen to me? And why does it happen to other kids? And what are we creating in the world? I don't know if I thought about this at the moment, but what are we creating in the world that I don't know if I thought about this at the moment, but what are we creating in the world that people don't feel

that they're getting the love that they want so that they have to go off and do this, whether it's with kids or other adults. When you told the professor, in the moment that you were telling him, what's going on as you're walking up to the podium I was afraid when I went to his office

it was like after school I was just like I feel like I have to tell someone because I haven't told anyone it was like the subject of the class it was like the subject I was just like I want to tell someone it was just a secret i had that no one knew

and i just wanted to like yeah talk it out because it's been like festering in my body for 15 years or whatever and i remember just like trembling and shaking when i was talking to him he made me feel very comfortable he was like really relaxed i'm sure he's experienced a lot of this before you know talked about it for years. And so, but I still felt like ashamed. He made me, again, it made me feel not ashamed.

He was like, this is not your fault. This is something that he's probably did before you and probably continue to do. Um, so it kind of gave me like a first step of me being like, okay, it's, it's not,

I'm not a bad human being for this happening to me. I still felt ashamed i didn't tell anyone and open up for another 12 years about it but uh it was kind of like a first step for me i mean the moment after you told him was there any sense of relief or was it just like i think i think there was a sense of relief right away but still like i was living in fear yeah i was like living in fear living in resentment living in a place of not forgiving myself i'm out but now what the hell do i do yeah i was like it was a first step yeah but i was still trapped right in this like emotional prison of fear. And I think each year, as I got older,

and became more mindfulness about myself and the world and what I've created and what I haven't created, I was able to relax and drop into my, I don't know, peacefulness about it. Because I was just kind of remembering it and I felt okay with it myself, but I just wasn't able to share with anyone else. It was still a shame. Right, that's the thing.

It's like there was one person, but that didn't, it's like that didn't start this external series of things where it's like, okay, let me see a therapist. Let me tell my close friends. Let me tell my mom and dad, whatever it is, or my brother, my sister. It was like one and done

so there's this like emotion like okay but then it's like you're almost like you're going back into the cave after i hadn't fully dealt with it and it definitely showed up in relationships like i was still coming from a place of reacting in relationships with friends, with business partners, with intimate relationships with women that I was dating. And I remember when things were great, I was great. And when at the moment someone started to, I started to feel attacked in any emotional or physical way, whether that was the case or not, whether they were attacking me or not. When I started to feel attacked, I would drop in defensive mode and attack back.

Like I needed to protect myself. Like my body was telling me I needed to protect myself. There was nothing like my mind had could reason. It was like I hadn't dealt with whatever I was making me defensive still and um so it showed up and i was living in a place of fear in relationships when it would get tough or vulnerable or my you know intelligence was at at stake or like you know someone's tried to attack who i was as a person and whatever it may be you know yeah i or like, you know, someone has tried to attack who I was as a person or whatever it may be, you know?

Yeah, I mean, and also, you know, like you lived in a really interesting world at this time. It's like you go through college, you're a huge football star in college, you know, and then you come out and you're playing pro ball. Yeah. And they're just, people make assumptions. Yeah.

About who you are, who you should be, the type of man you are, the type of man you aren't. And so there's like, you're in the public, you're a very public person. Yeah. And at the time also, my dad got in this extreme car accident. I don't know if I talked to this about you. Yeah, we talked about it. And he was in a coma for three months and we didn't know if he was going to live or die and it was like i had this amazing father who was always there for me every game around the

country he flew to be at in high school and college and it was like i had this amazing you know hero that i was in fear of like you know growing up and unsure about but then was really there for me with everything emotionally physically like he was so loving so compassionate understanding through my like growing pains as a young adult you know like most teens go through and it's just like and then he was gone you know he's alive but he was like gone and we had to like teach him how to walk and talk and they had serious brain serious brain trauma and um so i was going through that like losing my dad in a sense um during that time as well and not didn't know who to lean on really but it's so interesting too because you talk like

on the one hand you talk about your dad as someone you lived in fear of yeah and then you also talk about him as like the most loving compassionate devot, devoting. I mean, there's such intense duality around that. It was crazy. Yeah. I think, you know, it's tough because I can't talk to him about this right now because he's very like aware of what's happening, but he has some amnesia still and he's not fully remembering everything. So it's hard to have a conversation about his inner feelings

with him fully being able to express it. He can express but not fully at the deepest level I think yet still. So I don't think I could actually have the conversation with him to ask him what was going on with you. I think it was just a lot of like he got married when he was 18

because my mom was pregnant with my older brother. They were in college. So he finished college while having two jobs to pay for the first baby. Then they had three more kids in 10 years. And I think he was probably just doing stuff he didn't love and was probably like not happy, completely fulfilled, but stayed together because they wanted to take care of the kids. Right, yeah. fulfilled but stayed together because they wanted to take for the kids right yeah so i think there was like once the kids were off to college and my oldest siblings were off to college and like i was 13 i was like the only one left in high school and i was gone to a private school he had like

all this freedom and flexibility and he just like started really you know start to reclaim his life his identity his life like his happiness and he was probably going through his own demons for the first you know 12 years of my life it's just like so then and then flash forward it's like at the time where you start to really need him on a different level this horrible thing happens and he's he's obviously for the no fault of his i mean but um but he's not there on like at the at your moment of greatest need right he just can't give you what you need. Right, right. And he was like my, you know, again, he was there for me and my friend, my dad, my mentor.

Yeah. Everything, so. So, you keep this inside for a long time again. Yeah, yeah. But the rage is like, it's like, you know, there's a little of a valve like that blows off a little bit of that when you talk to your sociology professor but it's like the valve shuts down it starts to build again yeah you know i think like each year as i grew older in my 20s i was very calm i became more mindful of who i was in the world and and everything and i would say that i was not like an angry person by any means or

aggressive i was very loving but i would still react and like get defensive and threaten if someone was threatening me it's like i would threaten back with the same type of fear or whatever as opposed to just coming from a place of let's resolve this lovingly right and communicate like human beings, you know what I mean? Which is so interesting for me, because I mean, like, knowing you pretty well, I also know, like, there's,

like, you look at your physical presence, and again, like, you make certain assumptions about a guy like you, but you have, like, this insane, you know, like, nurturing, like, loving, like, caretaking, you know, like, mothering caretaking you know like mothering side yeah like to the world um which i think a lot of people would really be caught by surprise but it's such a part of the fiber of who you are um yeah it's just again there's like these just crazy dualities playing out in your life all over the place yeah Yeah. And I, you know, again, I think it's the experiences I went through.

Again, I felt like my father, my parents, my siblings loved me, but I didn't feel loved. So I knew they loved me. And my interpretation of it was that I wasn't being loved. I didn't feel it.

Yeah. Whether it was happening or not, that was my interpretation. Now, maybe it was just because of, that was my interpretation. Now, maybe it was just because of the instances that happened, the rape, some other instances that occurred, just my brother going to prison when I was eight, just feeling like I didn't have any friends until I was 13. I just didn't feel like I was accepted or loved. And so I think it really made me want to love everyone so that I could feel that, it really made me want to love everyone so that they,

I could feel that. It really made me want to be, you know, nurturing and compassionate towards everyone so that I could experience what that felt like as a kid. And so I think that's kind of like how it's developed for me. Yeah. I mean, but, and, and at the same time, it's like you have, it's like you had two states, and adoration yeah exactly yeah i was a really confused kid and i remember you know i i don't i don't think i've told this to anyone i think my parents knew this but when i was in elementary school i would often tell the the teacher or the principal like when i would get in trouble or when i just or something was happening i would often say i remember i can't

believe i can't believe i actually said this a lot but i remember i would say that i wish i were dead or i want to kill myself and i think i would just say it so nonchalantly that you know i don't know why i would say that and i don't know if other kids ever said that but i would just be like i wish i were dead i wish i would like i mean i think a lot of middle schoolers say that about other people right right i wish they were dead i wish you would die or whatever right but i mean but the fact that you were saying actually i mean like who am i i'm not a psychologist sure um but to me it actually makes perfect sense because it's like oh wait a minute here's somebody now who who doesn't love me like what can i say what can i throw out there to get

attention to change the emotion so that all of a sudden they want to take care of me. Right, exactly. Yeah, so like they're not, you know, they're not angry at me anymore, but they're like, how can I get them to love me?

Of course. So I can, you know. And, you know, looking back, I see what I was creating for myself. But, yeah. And I don't know if, again, if it all stemmed from this one experience or if it was a multiple of experiences.

Yeah, I mean, it's... I'm assuming it's... Who knows? We're a compilation of all these things, but you had some big moments, including a big one that you recalled so vividly when you revived. So you get to a point pretty recently in your life

where you start processing this, and it's like, what happens that makes you hit a tipping point where it's like, this has to... I need to move through this. this it's interesting i never thought i would share this with anyone ever or open up maybe like if i was like you know my wife i would like talk about it but i didn't really like think about it that much and i was just like you know it's not that big a deal it happened when i was five there's nothing i can do about it and it's over like i can either

be upset about it or i can I can create something amazing in the world and have an awesome life. So I was like, why talk about it? Why even bring it up? It's not going to do me any good. I went to this, about six months ago, I went to this leadership workshop for five days in Los Angeles,

and we were talking a lot about emotional intelligence and really understanding ourselves and why we react to certain things in the world, why we create certain things in the world, why, um, you know, what holds us back from like getting what we want in relationships with our career, with our goals, like what are the things that are holding us back, keeping us from living the most epic life that we can live. And I remember there was like a moment where people were just sharing about different things that they'd went through in their life.

And the workshop facilitator was like, you know, here's an opportunity. If anyone wants to share, like here's the open floor. And I'm extremely grateful for the space that everyone else created before me in this 30 to 60 minute moment of sharing because some people really were so courageous and opened up and shared in front of a group of about 50 of us about some things that happened to them. And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is unbelievable. And I remember thinking, is there anything that I could share that is holding me back? I was like, my ego was like, I'm pretty good. My ego was like, you're doing great things. You're crushing it. You're getting what you want. You're making the

money. You're achieving your financially athletic goals. I was like, I think I'm pretty good. I don't know if I need to share anything. There's nothing like crazy has happened to me. Like some of these stories were unbelievable. And then I was just like trying to, I was like, okay, I really want to dive into this and make sure I get the most out of this workshop. So let's just think about it. So I was thinking about my brother going to prison. I was like, I've already talked about that so much. Like I'm not, it doesn't hurt me or affect me anymore. I was like, my parents getting divorced. No, you know, I i've gone through that and so i was just trying to like go through my head all the things that happened and then everything but everything everything about that

and then that kind of pops up i was like what about this thing when i was five that i've already dealt with um and my heart started pounding when i was thinking about it i just imagined myself in front of the room speaking about it and my heart was pounding and i was thinking about it. I just imagined myself in front of the room speaking about it. And my heart was pounding. And I was like, I don't think I want to do this. But I know I need to. And so the trainer was like, his name is Chris Lee. He goes, last chance.

Does anyone want to get up here? And I was like, in my seat, I was like, I do not want to do this. This is extremely vulnerable and scary. But something in my body just stood up and just started want to do this this is extremely vulnerable and scary but i just like something in my body just stepped stood up and just started walking to the front of a room and i was like oh shit i'm about to do this and then i was up there just like how many people in the room about 50 people probably yeah did you know them before these five days didn't know them no yeah but i'd known him for it was probably like the third day right so there's a pretty

safe relationship yeah i was really building connection with a lot of people and like No, but I'd known him for, it was probably like the third day. I was building a relationship. Yeah, I was really building a connection with a lot of people. And we were going through different exercises and experiences together. So I felt safe enough where if I don't see any of these people ever again, awesome. If I do, okay. But I remember being very nervous. And I stood up there, very very calmly walked through the entire experience similar to the way i walked through with you in the beginning of this interview and

i was calm i was not crying i was just like talking i remember i couldn't look anyone in the face i was just kind of looking down i could press probably in a shameful way, looking down and just expressing it. And then I remember the room was just silent as I'm talking. And I think everyone was just kind of in shock that this, I guess, big man was talking about being sexually abused and raped as a five-year-old boy by another man. And I sat down back in my seat, and there was two women on either side of me.

And I remember sitting down and just like bawling and crying probably harder than I've ever cried in my life and just letting it out, just really letting it out. Like I was a kid that just like, you know, fell off the swing or something but just bawling crying i just could not control my emotions i could not hold it in i couldn't act tough i couldn't act like this big guy i was just so i was just ejecting this emotion and thankfully like i've so i remember who was sitting next to me but these two women were so loving and just hugging on to me and crying with me, having this moment with me where I was so shameful for what I had just said. I felt so low of myself and shameful and guilty. And I was just like, no one in this room is going to look at me the same ever again. They're all going to judge me.

They're all going to think weird things're all going to you know think about weird things about me they're going to look down at me i just had all these thoughts like bubbling up and so i was crying with these women in my arms they ended up taking a break right then so i go out i go out of the the the conference room out of the the, and just like, I need some air. So I'm going outside. I'm like bawling outside. I'm like putting my head against the wall. I just didn't want anyone to look at me.

It was just really shameful. And I was just like, I don't know if I can go back in this room. It's like, what's going to happen? I was like, I don't know if I can go back in this room. And I am just so blessed and grateful i had this opportunity because what happened next was one of the most amazing healing moments for me these men in the room came out to me and like just looked me in the eyes and told me

that i was their hero and it was so moving for these other grown men who are older than me to express their feelings towards me about, I guess, my courage. They were like, you are so courageous. I'm so sorry this happened, but this is amazing that you are stepping up and sharing this and allowing yourself to experience it. And man after man came up to me and embraced me and hugged me.

And, again, that it was because it was a man and, like, the whole experience, I think it was just really healing for me to have other men be like, you know, thank you for what you're doing and for what you're creating and how loving you are towards women and towards other people. And, um. Yeah, and you're no less a man. Yeah. Because of this. No one looked down on me. Yeah.

And I thought everyone would. Right. And it was, again, it was a struggle to go back in there, but there was like, I had all this support to like come back in. And I realized at the end of the day that my story, my experience, that people have experienced just as much, if not more, in their own way. And it's not like I have this unique story that's worse than other people or better than other people. It's just my experience.

And another guy came up to me and was like, I was sexually abused as well. And no one knows about it. And thank you for creating the space for me to be able to tell you. And we got to have this connection and this bond and talk about it. And other men started opening up and sharing about things that happened to them. And again, some things were extremely traumatic and like, holy this is unbelievable and other things were you know i would say less traumatic but still very emotionally stressful for them in their own way yeah and um so i remember just it was like the that was really the first step for me it was kind of like sharing it to a group of people in a really safe container in a safe place and having them say like this it's okay yeah and you're okay yeah yeah not like

i'm going to be ashamed of this and not only you're okay but you know like what you just did right was astonishing yeah yeah and uh again i think for me it was a challenge just by being this larger guy, whatever stereotype, and not supposed to express my emotions and be vulnerable that way. It was a challenge for me because that's how I've grown up to think that I'm not supposed to do that. And again, I really am grateful for the space as well because a lot of women came up to me and were just like opening up and sharing what had happened to them and just saying how much they trust men now in the world

because of what I was able to create for them and you know thanking me for opening up and for being vulnerable and you know that they judged me before because of the way i looked and you know and we've talked about the first time i met you i judged you big time you know like this is like big you're like goofy like right jock and i was like and i learned like in in minutes that i was dead wrong i was being an idiot but yeah i mean there's there are certain assumptions that people make about you just because of your physical presence.

Right, right, right. So these women were like, you literally healed me right now by what you were able to create. And I trust men because of you. Where I haven't trusted men for years because of the way I've been manipulated or this and that. but now seeing what you're able to create and what's, you know, your way of being there, you know, they shifted.

No, which I was just like, it was an honor for me to hear that from these men and women. It was like one of the greatest gifts they could have given me to see that I was able to create that for them. So, but now you're in an interesting place, right?

Because you came clean one time before it was like 10 years ago, whatever it was. But then no one else knew. Right. And then you went back into the shell. So here's this moment again. And this is like, okay, you got to make a decision again. Yeah. How are you going to move forward?

Well, I thought about it. And I was just like, okay, have i done the work have i let it out you know i cried about this now i've expressed it i've told people about it in a safe place and is this has it left me am i you know still gonna react or be angry or negative or hold a grudge? Or have I forgiven myself and forgiven everyone else? And I was just like, you know what? I haven't gone deep enough. I knew that I'd done a great amount of work just in that moment.

And sharing it and talking with the people who were there about it, kind of one-on-one and listening to them and talking to them about my my stuff i knew that i'd done a good amount of work i was like i was grateful and like patting myself on the back for like going there and getting vulnerable in it but i remember being like you know what my family doesn't know this about me for some reason i was just like i don't want to i don't want to be ashamed of this i want people to know about my life in a non-shameful way and i didn't feel like it would be resolved until all my closest friends and my family just knew just i just wanted to share the experience right

i didn't need to like cry on them or like have them say anything to me or have them feel bad for me or tell me it was okay yeah you just wanted to be out there i just wanted to be honest and open about my life and just be like here's who i am i'm an open book and not try to put on this like image that you know nothing happened to me and so i remember calling my family members one by one i think i called my mom first I might have called my sister first because I was kind of scared to tell my mom yeah my sister was so loving and then afterwards my sister Heidi she wrote me this like long email about how you know she thought I was so brave and how I was her hero and this and that and I was just like it felt amazing it's not

I didn't need that but it was like it felt amazing I just wanted to have her listen to me. I call my brother and I remember asking my brother, you know, my brother's like my hero to me. And I remember asking him a question. I would go, I had some, I had some coaching from a friend of mine, Kavita, who's a relationship coach actually. And I asked her, I was kind of telling her about this experience and I was like, you know, I want to make sure when I tell people that I tell them in an appropriate way that doesn't make them feel bad

or make them feel anything except for like, it's a safe place for them to listen. And she was like, start off by asking the question, is there anything that I could do in my life that would make you not love me? And I was just like, I didn't understand it, but I was like, okay, I'll ask it. And I asked do in my life that would make you not love me. And I was just like, I didn't understand it, but I was like, okay, I'll ask it. And I asked this, my brother, I was like, is there anything that I could have done in my life or that I could do ever

in my life in the future that would make you not love me? And he was like, absolutely not. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, and again, my brother went to prison. So I was just like, what else can you do? You know, know that that could be make me not love you so i was like okay he you know i created this safe place for him i was like i just want to share with you you know something that happened to me and i went through and share with him and he was like the most amazing human being like his response was so loving and nurturing and like he was like you know you're really the one that all of us look up to in the family for what you're creating,

like your life, your, your career, your dreams, like you're our hero. And I was just like, so moved by his words and just felt, you know,

he started to open up about things that he'd never share with me. And, you know,. And again, I created a space by opening up, being vulnerable for other people to open up and be vulnerable with me and create this deeper connection and relationship with my family that I've deeper sense of connection that I've ever had in my life. And I've been with them for 30 years,

but it was like, I really got to know them when I started to connect with them on this vulnerable, open level, as opposed to just, Hey, what's up, bro? It was up sister.

You know, what are you up to today? Normal surface stuff. I, it's like, I have this connection with my family now for us to be able to open up in a vulnerable place that I've never, you know,

that I've always wanted, but never had. And it's like this deeper bond just like it's amazing the connection we have now yeah when you talk to your brother were you curious at all about um whether this happened to anybody else in your family i'm curious i i still uh you know no one opened up to me about um sexual. I remember my sister, Heidi was like, I always thought something happened to you. She kind of like sensed it.

She was like, I always thought something happened to you. I was like, really? How'd you get to tell? She's like, I just felt it. She never asked me though.

And I don't know. I don't, you know, I have no clue if, if something happened to any of them when their children, none of them opened up to me about that specifically. They opened up about other things. But, it's possible.

So there's one person that you still, your sister, your brother. Yeah, I told my other sister too, Catherine. Then my mom. Yeah. I told my mom, and I think she felt like she kind of had a hard day. She was very emotional,

and I think she was crying the rest of the day. On the phone, she was very loving and sweet. I came to her right away, and she was like very emotional and i think she was crying like the rest of the day on the phone she was like very loving and sweet and i came to her right away i was like listen mom i want to tell you something but i want you to know it's not your fault like this is not something you did so i set the stage um but i kind of walked her through what happened and she was just like you know i feel really bad as a mother it's my job to protect you and to be there for you and i wasn't there for you. I was like, yeah, but I didn't tell you. And you didn't know.

And you didn't know the babysitter had a son who, you know, he seemed like a normal guy. You know, you didn't know he had this dark side or whatever. I was like, it's okay. I was like, because I had gone through the process of actually forgiving the guy, you know, went through my process of forgiving him. But the most important person I forgave was myself because I wasn't, I didn't forgive myself. And that's why I was so defensive and reactive and angry. It was just like upset at myself for 25 years. So I'd forgiven everyone in the process of the experience. And I took responsibility for it, you know, and a lot of people are like,

how can you take responsibility when you didn't know what's happening? It's not like I, I take responsibility. I just, I am responsible for the situation. You know, it's a situation that I was in. Yeah.

And I mean, cause I'm sure some people are going to listen to that and they're actually going to recoil to hear you say that. Um, but it's, I mean, I, this is my lens.

My lens is not that you're taking responsibility for what somebody did to you when you were five years old. Sure. But at this moment in time today, you're taking responsibility for how you choose

to process it and move forward. Exactly. And that's, so it's like, you're taking responsibility from, for the way that you now

move through this. Yeah. And interact with the world in this moment. Exactly, because I can either be a victim and have this be an experience that controls me and holds me back and has me hesitate and be closed off

in every relationship moving forward, or I can use it and say, you know what? What can I learn from this? And how can I ensure that I don't create this in my life moving forward? That I don't create negative feelings from people that people feel safe and that I'm honest and open and always expressing what's on my mind

and communicating as opposed to manipulating or whatever else may be happening and really allowing other people to make decisions based on my honest communication. And also to a certain extent, maybe to a large extent, you know, having this voice in the back of your head that kind of like feels more comfortable

that in any given reaction, like in any given experience, whether it's a romantic relationship, friends, business, that you feel more comfortable that your reaction is actually to what's going on in front of you rather than what's going on, what a traumatic incident a long, long time ago. We can never entirely leave any of that behind,

but at least you can, you always use the word mindfulness a number of times you become more mindful and at least you can zoom the lens out more easily and say wait a minute and what am i reacting to yeah i mean if i'm honest with myself there's gonna be breakdowns and things that happen that are not fun in the world. People are going to die as we do. That's not fun. Um, you know, there's probably going to be some war in my lifetime and there's probably going to be some things that happen that I don't want to happen either to other people around me to other, you know, something's going to happen

in the world where this sucks. And, uh, I can either choose to allow these instances to control me and have me live in fear and play small in the world and be safe and live in a little bubble, or I can experience the experiences when they happen and move forward with courage, vulnerability, compassion, openness, um, and love and be, you know, and create the change that I want to change for myself as kind of, you know, lame as that sounds, but really show people what, what it's going to take to step up in a powerful way when breakdowns happen or when things that seem horrible happen and how to be responsible for every situation. So I'm choosing moving forward, you know, does that mean I'm going to

never be reactive or never be, you know, guarded or defensive or angry or not forgive certain things? That's probably going to happen at some point. But I feel like I'm at a place where I've done so much work on myself and I've communicated clearly with a lot of people where I'm at. I've got the support to support me when a breakdown happens that I can quickly shift out of it. There's an instance I told you about this morning where I'm like, years ago, this would have controlled me this would have like taken over my my body my mind and i would feel like i would have to fix the problem fix it and solve it and be there

and like give all my heart my emotion until i'm like exhausted because i take all the responsibility and blame and i feel guilty and all these things. But I don't feel that way anymore. I'm able to go through the process, experience it, communicate it clearly with people, and then move forward and stick to my truth. I think that's been a valuable lesson going through this process

of opening up and sharing with people. It was interesting that, and tell me if this is, um, I'm not going to overshare here, I hope, but you know, like,

so you were sharing this with me this morning as we're hanging out and, um, we're not going to go into, you know, like what the circumstances, but, um, you also came to me because you're like,

I, I actually feel okay about this. I just, should I feel bad? Right. You know, so there's, it's so interesting that, you know, that was my default. feel bad right you know so there's it's so interesting

that you know that was my default yeah right and so yeah but i think what's great is that you know you have now some multiple friends who you you trust yeah with pretty much anything you can come to and say hey listen like i i've done a lot of work like and i'm i'm reacting differently than i ever would have you know is that okay because you're there's still that like there's still the nugget of a voice in your head you know and i think it's so important for people to have that small group of people around them so that they kind of like because we constantly need sort of you know like we need other people sometimes to to pull us out of that abyss that still can be like a bit of a default mode. Yeah. My automatic.

Yeah. It's going to draw me back into my automatic. But it was awesome to see that you, like when you, when you came to me that you had already kind of come to the place where like, I'm okay with this. I just want to make sure that like,

I shouldn't feel bad. Yeah. And I'm like, no, it's good. You know, like you're, it's awesome.

It's awesome to see it. But, um, you know, and I, I think one of the, um, one of the big powerful things, you know, for me, just moving through this conversation with you and having other conversations over the years and the last few months especially is just, you know,

something that Brene Brown kind of brought to the public eye in a huge way last year, which is that we're taught to assume that vulnerability is weakness and in fact you know more often than not um if not close to always vulnerability is a source of of strength um and that and not only strength for you but strength for those around you because when they see you live it you model it and you allow other people to step into theirs. Yeah. And connect with something deeper in themselves. It's like if your brother and your family, they're like, you don't know this, but you're our hero.

So when you model that, it's like you're opening up the world for them to step into on a high level. And then look what happens with your first 30 years later. Yeah. There's like a new relationship there. Yeah, I think Brene Brown is obviously like an inspiration. Shawn Stevenson, I heard him give a talk about vulnerability and how to like, he gave a presentation about how to leave people breathless.

And he's been on the podcast and talking about vulnerability. I remember just being so inspired by his stories of vulnerability for his life and thinking, you know, I don't have to portray this big, strong, got it all figured out all the time.

Like I can open up and, and actually by being vulnerable, it's going to make me stronger. You know, it's going to make me strong and connect with people on a deeper level that it's going to strengthen our relationship, whether people know me personally or just know me from afar. And it's been powerful. It's been, I feel stronger than ever now. And I feel humbler than ever now. Great. You know, so grateful.

I feel calmer. I feel at peace. I feel like I can I just feel really centered and grounded and not frustrated or confused and it feels amazing yeah I've sensed that about you there's been a huge shift over the last year really not even the last year but last couple of months. Yeah, yeah. Since I've been doing all the work, yeah. And the more people I talk to about it, you know, one-on-one, I've only been sharing it one-on-one

ever since this experience with my family, my friends. I started telling you and a few other close friends of ours. And it wasn't, again, to make people feel bad about me or to make them feel responsible, but it was really just to like say this who I am. I want you to understand a deeper level of me and kind of this is what I'm committed to moving forward. Here's what you can expect from me moving forward now that you know this about me, and it's been like, you know, the first couple times I talked about it with my family, I was scared and intimidated and nervous.

And now it's become easier and easier to share. And it's not a challenge to say what had happened. It's not a challenge. And I think my final, I really wanted, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I mean, one of the things that struck me, is I've now heard you share this with me twice. Yeah.

You know, and the first time I was struck by how almost clinical it was, but there was still emotion there. And sitting here now, it's probably a couple months later. Yeah. You seem more just, it's weird to say at ease with it. I feel like it's, yeah. But it seems like that. So I guess, and maybe this is where you were leading also. It's like now the leap to putting this out to everybody what's that about you know i had this

you know i wasn't sure if i wanted to kind of like openly publicly talk about this for a couple reasons like what if people thought something about me? What if they thought it was for the wrong reasons? Or my ego came up. What if they're going to judge me? This and that. What if people are not going to be responsive to the stuff I was putting out in the future afterwards? What if they would, you know, whatever. What if my business was going to suffer?

What if people didn't want to bring me to speak anymore? Things like that. My conversation was coming up and i really didn't want to do it if it was going to put people off in a negative way like i just wanted to make i wanted to come from a place of one being completely vulnerable and open to the world about who i am and two creating a safe place for other people who've been sexually abused in any way to – and if they haven't experienced it or dealt with like going through the process of understanding it yet, that I guess kind of gives some insights on how they could or that it was okay to and it's a safe place to do that. And I'm not saying you need to like let me know or leave a comment on the blog or anything crazy like that. If you like to, that's fine. But more than like, it's okay. If you've gone through this experience in any way, any type of sexual abuse, that you're not a bad person that you don't have to like feel guilty that you don't, you can forgive yourself and you can forgive the other person.

Because not being in a place of forgiving really made me a prisoner. I was a prisoner to these negative emotions for 25 years because I was holding on to this resentment about myself and this other person. And I would not forgive myself and this other person. And I would not forgive myself and this other person. And that's what caused a lot of the uncertainty of the anger and resentment and fear was this like feeling of not being able to forgive. And I want everyone out there to know that it's okay to forgive yourself and the other person if this has happened to you. And if it hasn't happened to you, it's okay to forgive people with anything of emotional abuse.

Anyone who's done you wrong. Anything. Any variety. Anything. Like if you're holding on to any resentment towards someone, it's not serving you. It's not serving you and stepping into your greatest level as a human being and creating the life of your dreams and the career you want, the types of feelings,

the passion you want to have every moment in your life, the relationships, it's holding you back from your greatness by holding on to this resentment. So there's secrets, vulnerability, and forgiveness. Three huge things like swirling around that invitation,

which is to step out of the shadows. And again, like you said, that doesn't mean dropping a comment here. That means in whatever way is appropriate for your life your condition where you're at like the way that you need to do that like how do you move how do you take that and and you start to move through it and and like bring it out of the shadow and the most appropriate way for you yeah you know nobody we can't tell you what that is and that can literally that doesn't mean you have to tell anyone also that can literally be writing a letter to yourself and then lighting a fire and burning it.

And just you going through the process of you experiencing the process of forgiveness and letting something go. Let's go a little bit more into that. Because the notion of forgiving somebody who has done something horrible to you, it's not an easy thing. Not easy at all. And especially what if someone's killed someone?

What if someone, you know, there's horrible things that have been done and I get it. It's not easy. And what if someone killed your whole family? You know, there's like, I've heard experiences of people's entire families being killed by drunk drivers.

How do you forgive someone who's dead that killed your entire family? Like, this is not easy. And I'm not saying I'm, you know, an expert in this. Yeah, I don't have, I wish I had answers. And I'm not saying that you need to forgive people or you don't need to. I'm not telling you what to do. What I'm saying is it's going to be really hard for you to step into your greatness and love fully and be committed to people and have an amazing life

without, you know, if you don't forgive yourself and someone else, it's going to be like, you're going to be a prisoner in your negative emotions. And if that's the life you choose to live, then I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying that's not stepping into your highest potential as a human being.

I'm seeing as a future podcast guest some psychotherapist who's an expert in forgiveness. Yeah, yeah, exactly. How do you actually do it? Yeah, I would love to know more. I mean, I just know what worked for me. The process I went through was sharing it with a group of people, then one by one with everyone in my immediate life.

And then I knew that I wanted to create a space because I do have a platform and a podcast. I knew I wanted to. I was asking you, I was asking a lot of people, I was like, do you think I should share this publicly? Because I really don't want to if it's going to come across in the wrong way right like opportunistic yeah i really don't want to do this if it's gonna like if people it's gonna hurt people as opposed to support people and a lot of people were like i think it'd be an amazing thing for you to do

and so i just said you know what jonathan i, I'd love for you to facilitate this for me so I don't just ramble about an experience. No, and so much love to you for just having the trust in me, the faith in me to just have the conversation with you publicly. I know you've been struggling with this for a while. And I can certainly understand, especially out there in the world that we live in, that people will process this through whatever filter their life brings to listening. And no matter how much you try and come from a loving place with this, no matter how much you try and do this in the name of allowing people to rise, there will be people who look and be like oh this is it's opportunistic he's trying to build audience and right um and just certain sense you can't you gotta you know let that go too and just know like you know what my intention is i know my heart like deep down that i'm doing this this is right action yeah this is right action yeah i'm doing this for the right reasons and I feel it in my heart.

And that doesn't mean that it won't be haters, but that knowing it comes from that place allows you to be much more okay when and if that does happen. And the truth is the vast majority of people will rally not only to support you, but to support the conversation but to support the conversation and to grow the conversation

and then maybe allow other people to step into their own journeys on a different level. I feel like it's not being talked about enough with, I feel like a lot of people who haven't shared their experience. And because they haven't shared it, it's not on the forefront of people's minds. And it's not, people think it's okay to do to like little kids and it's just not

okay. And so I want to step up and share my experience to let people know that it's not okay. And to make sure that you like do talk to your kids or whatever and let them know like, Hey, if this ever comes up for you, give them some guidance. You know, I'm not a parent, so I can't tell you what to do, but let people be aware of it. Have conversations with your kids, like on a weekly basis or monthly basis, I would say, and ask him, is there anything that's happened or there's anything you'd like to talk about that you feel ashamed of or anything, create a space for them. And maybe that means you need to be vulnerable as a parent first or, and really open up about them. And maybe that means you need to be vulnerable as a parent first or,

and really open up about you. And maybe there's a right time and place and you know, I'm just throwing out ideas, but yeah, I just want to be having a conversation and you know, in some sense, this is like a selfish thing for me to really like continue to heal. And I feel like I'm heal. Like I've gone through the process and i've i've let it go and i've forgiven but like you said like i don't know will this ever go away like

if i stop talking about it is it gonna go away right i don't know but i mean you know it and me expressing it makes me feel like stronger yeah and i guess to a certain extent you know the the broader you go with it the um the further you step out of the shadow and into the light exactly exactly so yeah and as a parent you know obviously um i i hope um that you know i would always create space for my kid to feel okay coming to me, coming to my wife, with whatever, whether it's bad grades or like a spat in school to, you know, God willing, nothing ever major happens.

But, you know, as a parent, you're always, I'm not the only parent who I'm sure is listening to this. I'm sure there are zillions. One of your biggest hopes as a parent is always that you create enough, a space of safety and love so that you would hope that your kid would come to you with any kind of challenges. You know, that's always one of the concerns that you have as a parent is that you don't want secrets to build up because you feel like your kid can't trust you with something. Yeah. And I would definitely say, you know, whether you're a parent who's experienced sexual abuse or rape yourself, you know, there's, we were trying to find statistics online before and we still don't know what it is, but I know there's like a number

of people, it seems like one in every six or seven of people have had some type of sexual abuse in their life, whether it's a small or, or a rape. But I think, um, you know, if you have experienced that in any way, I just want you guys to know that like you are such an amazing, you're amazing human beings that I love you so much and that it's okay. Like whatever you've experienced, it's okay. It's not the end of the world. And you can still create amazing relationships and an amazing life for yourself, even though you've experienced that. And I just want everyone to know that if they've ever experienced that, or if anyone in their family has experienced that, to just give them a safe place to feel loved and that a safe place to talk about it. For me, that's what I needed was a safe place to feel loved and that a safe place to talk about it for me. That's what I needed

was a safe place to talk about it without feeling ashamed, even though I still felt ashamed and just know that, uh, you know, some people may not want to talk about it, but I think it's holding them back if they're not talking about it and they're still, you know, guarded or defensive or something's holding them back in their life. So just continue to create a safe place until they are open to talking about it. Yeah, I think it's probably a great place

for us to come full circle and wrap up also. It's been, like I said, it's been an honor. I appreciate you having the faith in me to just have this conversation in a comfortable way. And you're my hero. Thank you. Not for going through what you went through, having the faith in me to just have this conversation in a comfortable way. And, and, and, and you're my hero for, you know, not for going through what you went through,

but just for, for your decision to move through it. Well, I acknowledge you for being an amazing friend for, again, allowing me to have a safe place. You're one of the first people I thought of and talked to when I wanted to have this podcast and this episode. So what you're creating in the world has created a safe place in my heart to just share freely with. So I acknowledge you for the huge gift you are to

this world and what you continue to do with all of your projects. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to today's show. If you've enjoyed this episode, please head on over to iTunes and subscribe so you never miss an episode. And while you're there, if you feel like leaving a review, that would be fantastic. So appreciated.

Also, if you're interested in any courses or trainings or anything else that we may be up to at good life project head on over to good life project.com and take a look at what we have going on and if you feel inclined go ahead and subscribe to our weekly newsletter thanks so much we'll see you next time Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS

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