Good Life Project - Life on Creativity | Austin Kleon

Episode Date: June 25, 2019

Austin Kleon (https://austinkleon.com/) is the New York Times bestselling author of Steal Like an Artist, Show Your Work!, and his newest book, Keep Going (https://amzn.to/2MxSePD). His work has been translated into over 20 languages and featured on NPR’s Morning Edition, PBS NewsHour, and in the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. He speaks about creativity in the digital age for organizations such as Pixar, Google, SXSW, TEDx, and the Economist. In previous lives, he worked as a librarian, a web designer, and an advertising copywriter. He grew up in the cornfields of Ohio, devoted himself to music as a kid, writing and art as an adult, and now calls Austin, Texas, home. Today, we explore his journey and lens on creativity, work and life.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So I had so much fun sitting down today with my guest, Austin Kleon. He is the author of a series of books. The first one about blackout poetry, actually, and then steal like an artist, show your work and his latest, keep going. We touch into some of the ideas on all of these books. They're wonderful. They're short, they're illustrated, they're insightful, they're fun. But even sort of bigger picture, we really explore his personal journey and some of the big moments, the big people and experiences that have shaped him. He grew up in Circleville, Ohio, tiny town surrounded by cornfields, ended up fascinated with reading, writing, making art, and making music. And he is one of those rare people that has figured out how to keep those threads woven

in the center of his life as he's navigated into adulthood, into parenthood, and build a meaningful living around those things where he's able to do all of them constantly and at the same time sustain himself and his family and give back in a really powerful way. We talk about all of those different things in this conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. This woman came up to me in Chicago and said,

oh my God, you are my hero. And I was like, what? And then she reminded me who she was. Her son had gone to art school and had gotten arrested and charged with a felony for vandalism, for graffiti. And she had written to me seven years ago and said, what am I supposed to do here? And I just wrote back to her. And I said, oh, there's no lower life form than a 19-year-old boy. Like, he'll be fine.

And so she came to the Chicago Public Library. Like seven years later. Yeah, like seven years later and said, you don't know how that put me at ease. He's a painter in Brooklyn now. Oh, that's amazing that's amazing i was probably just writing back to her like ah you know trying to clear my inbox right and she was like he's a painter in brooklyn now i mean but it's like so often right so many times you have um like that somebody's innate sort of like a gift or talent or intuition shows themselves in kind of slightly aberrant ways earlier in life. Oh, absolutely.

But like the parental or sometimes the societal response is like to just like shut it down because it ain't mainstream. But it's so interesting when you hear stories like that. And like somehow, somewhere along the way, he figured out how to redirect it. I mean, my son looked at me the other day and he wanted us to give him i don't know if he wanted lemonade or his iphone i have an old iphone i let him play he records music on garage band when he's in the back of the car and i forget what i said about you know we were like no you can't have that right now. He's like, well, then I'm going to turn evil and destroy the world. That's what he said.

Like, I'm going to turn evil. And it is funny with him all the time because I really see that creativity and destructiveness, like, they sort of like are hand in hand. Now, if you don't channel the energy in the right direction. Yeah, it's a fine line. It's a fine line. It's a fine line for sure. Plus, we're kind of curious, like, hmm, I wonder what his evil looks like. Yeah, like what does he think destroying the world would consist of? Like what are you going to do to destroy the world?

Right. You're like, okay, you go destroy the world, but hold on a second. I just want to film this. Yeah, yeah. Do your best. Like take him in the backyard. Okay, do your best. Destroy the world. That's awesome. Take them in the backyard. Okay, do your best. Destroy the world.

That's awesome. So you got two kids now. You grew up in from what I know, pretty rural Ohio. Yeah, I grew up like, I didn't even grow up in the small town. I actually grew up outside of the small town. Are we talking like cornfield country? Yeah, in the middle of a cornfield

in sort of central southern Ohio. Yeah. So I, yeah. And my mom was a home ec teacher, guidance counselor, eventually high school principal. My dad worked for Ohio State. He was an ag agent. So he ran like the county fair and the 4-H program.

So like that gives you an idea. We don't have those in New York City. Yeah. Like give it, I'll give you an idea of like how rural my, like I took hogs to the county fair. So like, that's the kind of like, that's what I grew up with. So growing up around that, what are you into as a kid? Same stuff I'm into now, reading, music, making art. You know, I always loved that stuff. It was just in a, you know, one of my earliest memories is copying Garfield cartoons on the kitchen floor of my grandma's farmhouse, you know, with butcher paper and crayons, you know. And that's sort of, and playing her piano and then reading, going off and reading books.

I mean, that's, and that's still what I do now. Right. It's like the three things. Yeah. Like the, the, you know, yeah, just reading and, and drawing and writing and making music. What was, I mean, what was music for you as a kid? Because, um, it seems like it was both something you love just as, as like a consumer, but also on the creative side as well. Yeah. I, so I just spent all of my teenage years writing music and writing songs. Oh, no kidding.

So that was almost like the central thing. Yeah, that was my real passion. And I'm sort of trained on classical piano, and everything else is sort of self-taught. It's one of those things where you're in the middle of a cornfield. And my best friend is a drummer. So that was incredible. He's like a world-class drummer. And so we would make music all the time together, but he lived like 20 minutes away and we didn't have cars. So, you know, it'd be like weekends or whatever. So the rest of the time, it was like, you sort of had to

teach yourself to play whatever instrument you could get your hands on. Right. One person band. A one person band. And I remember getting a Tascam four track cassette recorder. I remember those. Those were giant back in the day. Yeah. I think it cost like $450 and I got one and, and,

and, you know, you know, using cassette tapes to make songs. And, and that's what I spent like most of my teenage years doing. And I think that the thing I think about that now is that I think all creative work sort of exists on a spectrum. And I think that anytime you spend

doing something creative, like sort of builds up over the years. I think even now, you know, even though my, you know, my job now isn't making music, but I feel like all those hours spent in a room trying to make something exist where it didn't exist before, I just feel like that time is never wasted. You know what I mean? I feel like all those hours of trying to figure out what it's like to make stuff just accumulates over time. And so I just don't think that anything's wasted.

Yeah, I so agree. I think it's just, it's like there are different channels that stimulate your brain kind of like in a different way. And almost, I think so much creativity is pattern recognition. And if you can, you have sort of like more, more ways to come into that, you know, whether it's through music, through sound, through visual, through words, through, it's just like, it's more ways to stimulate the brain to recognize differently and see how things go together. Yeah. And I was someone who like had, I remember seeing Shel Silverstein's bio on the back of like where the sidewalk ends or whatever.

And it was like, he writes poems, draws pictures and writes songs and has a good time or something like that. And I was like, I want to be that person. You know, I knew from a young age that I wanted to be somebody who did a lot of different things. Like that was just, that just like really appealed to me at an early age. You know, I wasn't, I wasn't like, you know, like my buddy I mentioned earlier, like he's been wanting to be a drummer since he was five and like knew that. And I just never had that.

I wanted to do like a bunch of different things yeah i mean but there is a common thread like because there's there's something from nothing that exists with everything that you do yeah i mean that's i i james kuchalka the cartoonist talks really well about this is that he just feels like if you're good and i think this is kind of a controversial thing to say he feels like if you're good at one creative thing, you might be able to like go to another form and pick it up. Because he just feels like there's something that you learn as a creative person. There's some sort of process, something you tap into. You can, you know, convert that to other forms.

And I think part of that also, right, isn't it? That, you know, like it's almost this belief in possibility, whereas you're like, okay, so I've started from nothing. And maybe I didn't have chops, I didn't have skills. Somehow I figured it out and I made something. So if I can do it in one domain, why couldn't I figure it out in another? Yeah, and it's a willingness to start from an unknown spot, a place of not knowing. I think people don't get this about creative work, is but those are what are coming to mind but they'll say like you know when the well runs dry with songwriting they'll pick up

an instrument that they don't really know very well and then figuring out that instrument they'll come up with all sorts of new ideas and i look at it and you know my six-year-old's the same way i mean he'll just pick up you don't have to show him very much on stuff and he just goes for it. There's like this, it's weird because it's like a confidence in uncertainty. You know what I mean? It's like a confidence in not knowing. It's like you're like, well, I don't know what I'm doing, but I have a confidence that I can figure it out. The really mechanical guys I know, you know, the people I know who are really good with their hands, like just like making stuff like my like my dad, for example, is like really good at like just figuring out how to use a tool. And I think it's more of just an ability to be comfortable starting from zero.

What you said, you know, just like starting from nothing. Yeah, I mean, but it's interesting, right? Because I think a lot of people I know a lot of people that that way too. And I feel like I'm wired that way. So maybe we recognize each other, you know, like when you see that person. One of my curiosities for so long has been how to, if you don't have that just sort of naturally, if you touch down, like you're not that person. Yeah. You step in, like you're a half step into the abyss and you're like, oh, hell no. Yeah. Like, is it trainable i don't know i mean i wonder about that and i wonder about that with my work because so much

of it is attempting to get people to train themselves um i think it it requires uh you know getting uncomfortable i think you can train yourself i think there's ways that you can train yourself to be okay with not knowing i mean like, my youngest son and my wife are a lot more like, they like to practice in private. They don't like to like, they like to figure out stuff before they're like going to go into it, you know? And so I do think it might be like a personality thing. I think there's ways that you can, I really believe that creativity is like a muscle or a verb. It's like something that you do. It's something that you can get better at.

I do kind of believe, I think we all have proclivities and I think we all come here with different talents. But I do think that you can sort of get in the right mindset if you do the right, you know, like I'm not a super physical guy. Like I'm not like super into exercising and sports and stuff, but I do know that like, if I do pushups every day, like I get better at it, you know? And that's how I kind of feel about this other stuff is like, you just have to do it every day and work out the muscles and get better. Yeah. I think also that there's, I've seen this, I'm sure you've seen this all over also, that those who seem to be able to exist for a sustained amount of time in that space, especially when the stakes get higher, there's a certain amount of ritual and routine

that's built into their life that I, at least my theory on this is that a lot of that provides you sort of like the regularity where you can kind of touch stone and, you know, like here's a moment or a space or a window where like I know how it's going to go. Yeah. And that lets you go into that other space where you're completely untethered and somehow be reasonably okay. Yeah. Have you seen that also? I think so. I mean, I sort of think that like Twyla Tharp writes well about this in The Creative Habit. Like, just that, you know, you have these scheduled times where you're going to go to work. And so the rest of your life could be chaotic. Or, you know, you need boundaries and structures so that you can go wild and kind of go out on a limb. The net is the schedule.

Having a set time to work, and then you can be wild. So it's this thing where it's like you have to sort of be disciplined enough to set up these times and these routines and rituals to work, but then you can be free in those times. I know for you also, I know you're a longtime diary keeper. Yeah. Was that from the time you were a little kid, or is that more recent? Well, I've always kept, I've kept notebooks since I was about in middle school. So it's a long time.

But diary, like keeping an old-fashioned diary is sort of new for me. For years, I kept what I call a log book, which is just like a daily planner, basically in reverse, where I just fill in the day at the end of it. So like, and that was simply a memory tool because I have a terrible memory for what happens to me. So I literally wanted to know like, oh, I ate lunch with so-and-so that day.

And then just knowing that mundane detail would bring back the day for me and refresh my memory. So I did that for years and years, but about two or three years ago, I got really obsessed with two Davids, David Sedaris and Henry David Thoreau. And they both have very similar writing routines where, you know, you keep a pocket notebook all day, you write around, you scribble things, and then you go to your desk and you write in your journal or your diary. And then you turn those diary entries into longer forms of writing. So a couple of years ago, I adapted that. I carry a notebook with me all day and I scribble in all day. And then the next morning, I sit down with the notebook and I open my diary and I write in there like three to 10 pages.

And a lot of the last book I wrote came straight from the diaries working that way. And what I love about that is that you never have to worry about what you're going to write about because you've written in your notebook all day. If you do your work, you'd like never have to come up with anything. And so I, yeah, keeping a diary, I think it also has helped me because I have such little kids. Time is like speeding up so much because we're so busy all the time. I think that keeping a diary helps me stay mindful

and sort of pay attention to what's going on. Yeah. So I, you know, yeah, but I've always kept notebooks since I was like in middle school. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting too, because what you just described sort of like your more current practice, it's this interesting blend of real-time capture, then let your brain process it unconsciously for like the better part of the day and then sleep on it,

which is where all the integration happens. And then the next morning when your version of morning pages or however you want to describe it, it's like the output of that integration then gets formed into some couple pages of language. So your brain gets kind of flipped back and forth between these states with space in the middle to do the integration and the processing. Yeah, I'm a real believer in time as a great editor. I feel like that can be as much of looking at yesterday through the lens of today. You sort of figure out what was really important to you in the

day. But then also when I write something, I'll stick it in a drawer for at least a week because I want to make it weird for me again. You want to estrange the text. You want to come back to the text like a stranger so you can edit it and see it for what it is, you know? And time will do that for you.

Like yesterday looks strange, you know, to you because you're here today, whereas it felt really familiar yesterday. You know what I mean? Like it's just like something about just a little bit of time. And I think that's sort of the problem right now with creative work is that people are able to make and share split second. You know, you can make something and just share it immediately. And that temptation is so great, you know. And I even like to work that way sometimes.

I like to make like a poem or something and just post it online, see what people say right away. But I really think that like time is the great editor. Yeah. Creative work. No, it's a really interesting tension though. Right.

Because on the one hand you're like, okay, so I have the ability now to, to have this externally validated in the blink of an eye. Yeah. Versus, and that, and that can happen.

Like you snap your fingers, it's done versus my own internal validation process is probably gonna take a couple of days to a week. Totally. So it's like, you have to, it's like, how do you sort of like, you know, pulse in between those two states and who gets, who wins? Well, I will tell you in my life,

what's important is to have a private outlet and a public outlet. Okay. So right now it's like, my diary is very private. It's where I go to push myself and be awful if I want to or be sentimental or sappy or whatever. And then, so I write in the diary every day, but then I also make a blog post every day. I went back to daily blogging just, and sometimes they're long posts. Sometimes they're really short, like just almost one sentence with a picture.

And what I've found is that that blog sort of, I let me let this sit and percolate and you know see what i think about it when i reread it next week i want do you ever have this this scenario where you put something out there immediately that's sort of like it it's like a teaser or a piece of what what's you know percolating privately yeah and then publicly it doesn't get the response you want. And then that reflects whether you actually choose to go back to sort of like the private thing later and do anything with it. Oh, I mean, this is tough, you know, because I like to tell people all the time, I'm like, look, you know, what flies online to,

this is what's so tricky about something like Instagram, which I love. I'm sort of like, Instagram to me is like one of the last social platforms that I'm sort of like okay with. But the thing about Instagram that I just always remind people is like Instagram is all about context. It's what flies well on Instagram. It really isn't about what's the cooler work. Because I can tell you like I've made stuff that I just think, man, this is the next step for me. Like, this is the sweetest, raddest stuff I've done in a while.

And I post it and, like, crickets chirp. You know? And then I'll, like, scribble something on a notepad and take a picture of it and post it. And it'll get, like like 5,000 likes. And it's simply just because whatever's easily digestible, that's what people click the like button on, you know? But then it's like, if someone who follows me on Instagram, who's a friend of mine, who I really respect, leaves something in the comments and says, wow, this is really cool, then that's like a different metric, right?

That really sends me. So sometimes when those crickets chirp, but then one person I really respect leaves a comment, I'm like, oh, okay, he gets it. She gets it, you know? So it's like, I just counsel, because I think like especially young people who are coming up right now,

they use likes as like, that's the metric. And it's like validation, but it's also, I think there's a lot of, you know, like likes as a source for identity. I feel like there's such a huge risk for having other people define who you think you need to be. Well, you just think about some of your heroes and what it would have been like to have,

I mean, did Matisse have like a comment section under his cutouts? You know what I mean? I mean, it's just you're just thinking to yourself like, OK, in the history of art and all my heroes, like who would have operated this way? Yeah. Like one of my heroes, Linda Barry, who has spanned, she's had such a long career. I mean, she'll just turn comments off of her Instagram posts. I love that. She's like, I don't want to hear from you.

Just like I don't want the static of that. I love it. ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight risk. It's funny. Some of the creators out there in the world who I'm really drawn to who they are, the work that they've done, are the ones who also have their ghosts online. Yeah. Complete ghosts. I was trying to,

a little while back, I was trying to find Tinker Hatfield, this legendary sneaker designer, right? He does not exist anywhere. Even people in music music like Nora Jones doesn't exist online I love her work uh-huh you can't find her a comment or like there's nothing that gets shared like yeah it's and I'm I kind of think that's really cool too I love it and I do think it was easier you know I was reading this interview with Bjork and she was talking

about how lucky she was to like come up in an age where people bought CDs because she was like yeah I bought a couple houses and now like any money I make just goes into the art because there's no money there you know I mean so someone like Nora Jones it's like yeah she's got you know she's had she's tours and stuff but it just as easily she could have a social media presence and be able to be bugged. I think someone who's kind of really interesting on social media right now, well, there are a couple of musicians that I find are doing amazing work right now on social media. One is Patti Smith, who her Instagram is just like being back.

It's like you're back in the 70s. Yeah, and she's very open and it's really lovely. And then the other person I think is doing amazing work is with newsletters, Nick Cave. His red hand files where he takes questions from his audience and then writes these beautiful letters back to everybody. It's almost like having an advice column, but written by Nick Cave. And I think it's interesting because it does sort of show me personally that, you know, you take someone who's pretty genius-like and put them on

a platform that they're interested in. They're going to be interesting. Like, it's just... It kind of shows me that, you know, what we were talking about earlier, that this stuff transfers in between forms. I mean what one of

my questions about this also is and you write that you write about this in a number of places in your new book too um which is everybody evolves your point of view evolves your craft evolves your interests evolve right and and and as a creator or as an artist or you know like you want the way that that gets expressed to evolve along with you. And when we build followings, hashtag quote followings, and especially if you're relying on that for some source of inspiration, validation,

and you're living, and then you decide, and there's an expectation that's set there, right? Like this is you, this is your genre, this is what you make. And then you're're like but that's not really me today like that's not where i want to go and you start feeling beholden to serve you know expectations that don't want you to change that creates a really weird dynamic too it's tough i mean like i remember reading questlove saying that like they just knew in the roots like every album they were

going to lose half their audience wow that because that's just how they rolled i was like man that is ballsy yeah that is like wow that's not me like you know my idea like my hope for my audience is like i i push just a little bit further with something but there's some sort of bridge that they can follow me over to that next thing you know like there's some sort of bridge that they can follow me over to that next thing. You know, like there's some sort of connective tissue that'll bring it in. But it's interesting because like I'm facing a point in my career right now where it's like, I've done these three books. I think they exist really well in a trilogy. And I want to be, you know, I feel like I'm done with square books.

You know, these little, I'm ready for the next thing. And it is interesting where you're like, okay, now how different is it going to be? You know, like what are, you know, cause I, like, what's the, is there going to be connective tissue? Is there going to be like a, a bridge or is it, you're going to have to make the leap with me, you know? And it's, it's like such an interesting question. But I also think that again, we're thinking about, you know, you can make stuff that's way out there and not necessarily share it. So that's what I'm really interested in right now. Like I'm interested in like can I have a venue for myself privately where I try a bunch of crazy stuff and only show it to like a crew of close people.

And then in the publicly, I'm releasing stuff that's a little bit more meted out, you know, you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I think it's a really interesting way to do it. It's almost like you have your own internal skunk works, right? Yeah, exactly. And only certain people get access to that. But I think we're all like trained now to think, oh, well, whatever you make, you just put it out there. Cause like, and that was a big, my book, show your work. I think people took from that book, like some people took it to the extreme where they were like, oh, well, I should just set up a webcam in my studio and just let people have 24 seven access. And I was like, no, no, no, no. Like the point of show your work was to be intentional with your sharing is to show

things and share your process in a way that can get you where you want to go and can be helpful or, or interesting to your audience. It wasn't about like being 24 seven available. It was about giving people a peek, you know, into stuff and taking them along with you on the ride, but it wasn't about showing them everything. And I think as you get an audience, I mean, for me personally, I am just so much more interested in doing things in private than I was 10 years ago. You know what I mean?

Because I'm just, I'm like, I want, you know, it's almost that funny thing where it's like the minute an audience shows up, you're like, oh, well now I I want to do something for myself or whatever. I don't know. It's just a game. It's all a game, you know. It's all you're balancing.

And I think you're just balancing that thing where it's like, you know, Milton Glaser, the designer, he said, you know, professional success and personal growth are at odds all the time. Because he's like, professional success is just like, and he was talking specifically in the design field, it's like you just get a style and you run that into the ground and you just turn that into your cash cow and you don't change and you just have a style and you just let that run endlessly, which is the opposite of personal growth, which is like you're always learning, you're always evolving and whatever. And so to try to find some sort of, you know, path where

you're both professionally doing okay, but also growing personally, that's tough. You know, I think like David Bowie is like a perfect example of someone who, and there's a great clip of him online telling artists, like, you have to go into some sort of unknown with each project in order to grow. But he's someone who like we kind of, I think it was easy for him because he had the same voice. That was the connective tissue. That's the connective tissue, you know. And then people would follow him. But I mean, it's interesting you bring up Glazer. So we had him on the show years ago actually now. you know and then people would follow him but i mean it's interesting you bring up glazer so we

had him on uh the show years ago actually now and that was one of the things that he talked about is is that you know he so fiercely resisted you know like the quote glazer style yeah you know he's like he's like you know he made a name with posters or this or that or certain approaches to branding and then clients would want to come to him and because they kind of want to like make it look like this. And he would have to sort of have this conversation saying, listen, you're hiring me because, you know, like you trust that I have a sensibility that will figure out something truly great.

Right. And it may look nothing like anything I've ever done before. Yeah. And that was, he was one of those people also who really refused to be locked into that definition of like, this is what you will do for the rest of, you know, like your working career. Yeah.

And I mean, it, it takes, cause it's real tempting to just play the hits, shut up and play the hits, you know? Especially also, and I think this is something that doesn't get talked about a lot, which is like, if you're, you know, and this is interesting for you too, right? Because you've essentially, you've built your life and you're living in a creative way. And the entire time you've been married and soon after had kids. Yeah. Which changes the, you know, it changes things.

Yeah. It like reorganizes every atom in your being. I mean, you feel like you've, I think it was Jonathan Colton who said it was like becoming a vampire. It's like just you go through this really painful turning process. And then you come out the other side and you're just this different being. They just change your perspective on everything, having kids, especially if you really put your time into them. And it's a chance for a kind of rebirth yourself. you know, they really did come into the world somewhat formed. I mean, there's been such a through line so far. I mean, they're six and four, but they've just been essentially the same thing, like, for these years, even though they try on different stuff. And I wonder about that all the time. Cause I, cause I feel like the

closer I get to a life that I really want, it's like, I'm getting back to being 11 again. I just feel like I'm returning all the time to that kid I was when I'm really happy. And I was just talking to my friend, John Unger about this and upstate, I was up in Hudson visiting his studio and he was just so great with my boys. And he kind of got this look and this gleam in his eyes. I was up in Hudson visiting his studio and he was just so great with my boys. And he kind of got this look and this gleam in his eyes and he said, well, you know, I never really grew up, you know, and, and I, and Picasso said that, you know, he's like all children are artists. The problem is that some of us grow up. Yeah. You know, but it's like the flip side to the conversation though, is kids definitely remind you of that. Like they remind you of what's possible, like how it's possible to be present and open.

Yeah. And at the same time, do you feel that that also creates any sort of tension or pressure to not just create completely without the context of whether the work will ever have commercial success? Oh, right. Yeah. Well, you know, you've got college funds to think about and mouths, literal mouths to feed. I think kids just sort of like, yeah, there's that for sure. You're like, I got, I'm, I'm feeding people. Like you buy a book and it's like, put, it's literally my kid's food. You know, the stress of kids is just, I think mother, there are so many great books right now about being a mother and a writer or

a mother and artist right now. I think mothers are the prime example of how children will just suck out every bit of time in your day if they're allowed to. I forget what writer it was, but she said, to be a mother is to be constantly interrupted. And essentially, to be an artist is to be uninterruptible. But there's a great writer named Wendell Berry, and he talks about how if you can change your notion of art to you know the he's a man so you never know whether to take that or not i mean the the writer the the women writers i know who are mothers i mean there's just this real tension they just it's writing just requires all this time to be unavailable and to be a mother is to be interrupted constantly. And that tension is like really there. But then, you know, you've got someone like Chris Ware, the cartoonist

who I know he said about being a dad, he was like, it just lit a fire under my ass like nothing. It just like, he just said, you know, the minute she got here, it just cleared up every mental problem I had about working. It just became very clear what I was supposed to do. And I find that fascinating. Yeah. Where do you fall on that sort of continuum? Oh, you know, I think kids are simultaneously like the worst and the best thing that ever happened to you. You know, I mean, they just destroy your, you know, everything, you know, that life is gone, whoever you were before that's, but, but this other thing replaces it. And I also think kids like for me, I just know that my kids are so little right now. I know how much they're taking from their mother and me right now. And I just know this is a seasonal thing. Like it's going to let up at some point. It's going to be different.

They're still going to take. But like there's to try to just be into it as much as I can right now is the most important thing. But for me, it's just like it just reminds you of your mortality and your limited time. I mean, they just wake you up to like, this is not dress rehearsal. You know, like this is the show. Like you're in the show, dude. Like, what are you going to do? And I think like for my last book, it was very much like, okay, you know, I think it's

Annie Dillard who says, just spend it all every time. Like every time you go to the page, just spend it all. Just don't worry about holding anything back. Just spend it all. And that's what the kids have kind of, you know, in this last book, I was just like, I'm putting it all down. I'm trying to get it down now. And then I'll worry about the next one when it comes around. Yeah. Do you feel any desire or need to model a certain way of being or living or earning your living, not just because it's what you want to do, but also because you know they're watching?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's the hardest thing about being a parent for me is that you got to become the kind of man that you want them to be. You know, like you got to become the kind of person that you want them to be because you're their primary model. And so that to me is the toughest thing about being a dad is like being the dude that you want them to turn into someone calm and not screaming all the time, you know,

and not a complete mess. But I do think I've gotten a little bit more, I was a real cautious, I'm a very cautious person. That's why I've always hated that George Lois quote about, you know, there's no such thing as a cautious creative. I'm like, okay, well then I must not be. First of all, I hate the word creative as a noun, but whatever. But, you know, my wife and I are very cautious people. We're very Midwestern in that sense

and that we just like, we save a lot and we don't make risky split decisions and stuff like that. And it is interesting now that I have kids because I want them to be a little crazier than me. You know, I want them to sort of, yeah, I do want them to, I'm like, you know, go to Europe for a year before college and back, back, you know, I want them to be a little bit more, not, not as cautious as me. Because you see you're approaching middle age and you see all the time that's behind you and you're thinking about them. And also, when you're thinking about climate change and the way the country's going, you're just like, man.

I look at these kids and I'm like, just have fun. Just, you know, be, I think for them, this is not original, but I want them to be privately happy and publicly useful. That's what I think for them. And that's sort of what I want for myself too. Again, we're talking about that private versus public, right? I want to be privately happy and I want to be publicly useful. I want to be useful to the people who have gathered. That makes a lot of sense. I know there was,

some of this is right, I read it somewhere, when you were a kid, actually, yourself, probably in your teens, you had a school project where somehow you ended up reaching out to Winston Smith. Yeah, yeah. For those who don't know who that is,

he's kind of a legendary guy. Explain who that is and what that interaction, how that shaped you, because I think it kind of ties into this conversation. So when I was 13 or 14, you know, Green Day was the biggest band ever. And especially if you're in, like, small town Ohio, you know, you could go to Sam Goody and buy Dookie. But then when Insomniac came out, which is a follow-up to dookie you know green day did the typical thing

that a lot of bands do a lot of bands at that time that got big did nirvana did the same thing they had like their hit pop record and then they did their dark like edgy record so insomniac came out and it was like really dark and the songs were nastier and louder and And then the album art was just this insane, I didn't even know what it was. I thought it was a painting or something, but it was essentially, it was this collage art where a guy named Winston Smith did it. And it was 30s and 40s magazine illustrations. They cut out and collaged into these sort of Hieronymus Bosch type collages, just these amazing works. And later on, I found out he designed the Dead Kennedys logo. He's like a seminal 70s punk, 80s punk kind of legendary San Francisco collage artist. So I had an art

assignment in middle school. You were supposed to write to an artist you admired and ask them questions about their work. And most kids like didn't have a favorite artist. They had to like pick it out of like a, you know, my teacher had like a who's who or whatever. So it's still alive. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like here's a potter in Denver that I've got to write to. But then I was like, I got to write to Winston Smith because I just was kind of obsessed with his work. And this is pre-internet. Like, this is sort of dial-up internet era. So, like, getting a mailing address, it was like, how do I get a mailing address for this person?

So, my dad's the only person I knew with dial-up with internet and an email account. So, I found the gallery, like, Yahoo or whatever, because it's pre-Google too. I like found the gallery that shows some of his stuff in San Francisco and found the curator's email. And I wasn't sure how email worked at the time. So every time I went to my dad's office, I would just send this gallery owner another email until finally she wrote back to me and she's like, stop bugging me. Here's's Winston's address and so then I went home and I found um I don't know if you're like Microsoft works like word wasn't around so Microsoft works had this ransom note font so I typed I remember using that font yeah so I typed out this like letter that looked like a

ransom note and like sent it off to him and it was was this really, I mean, it was the audacity of youth. You know, I was asking him these questions about his work. And then I like did a PS, hey, here's an idea for a piece you might want to do. You know, my band could really use some alpha martin, you know, just this really callow letter. And I sent it off and like nothing happened. You know, two months went by and I just like sort of forgot it. And then one day this envelope came in this mail, this gigantic manila envelope. And it was, it had a 14 page handwritten letter from Winston Smith in it. And he said all these in a bunch of his work, he had photocopied and sent to me. And the stuff he said in it was

pretty much what you would expect, like a subversive punk rock artist to say, you know, you can question authority, you don't trust the man and all that stuff. But then he also had this really great advice. He was like, if I had known I would be around this long, I might have taken better care of myself. So he was like, just keep getting straight A's and like, don't abuse alcohol, candy or drugs. There'll be plenty of time for that later. That's what he said. So, but he was like, it was the first letter. This letter changed my life because I'm like, by hand and was like, yeah, I came from this hick town too. And that's who I am now. And like, but you know, you should don't, don't like blow up your life or anything. Like, go ahead and get good grades and stick with it and make your art. You know, it was just like the best, soundest advice. So then what happened is like years and years passed, and I sent a couple more letters, but we kind of lost touch. Well, when I was in tour in San Francisco, I found out he was having this open studio. Just recently? No, this was in 2012 when Steel Like an Artist came out. And I was in North Beach at this place called Golden Boy Pizza.

And I was sort of like, man, this seems like the kind of neighborhood that Winston would hang out in. And sure enough, like his studio is around the corner in North Beach. And I went to the studio and I opened the door hey, Mr. Smith, I don't know if you remember me. I wrote you this letter when I was 13. And like, you wrote me this wonderful letter back and blah, blah, blah. I was kind of freaking out, you know, meeting him. And he said, Austin, it's like, I didn't know you were going to be in town. And he was so sweet. And he said, you know, and he turned to this guy. He said, this is Trey.

And Trey sticks his hand out and says, hey, I'm Trey, I play drums. And I'm like, no crap, you play drums. You're the drummer from Green Day. So that was like this amazing day, you know, because I, and Winston said, oh, hey, come back, come back. What are you doing this weekend? I was like, whatever you want me to be doing, you know.

He's like, come back tomorrow. I've got something to show you. And I said, okay. So I came back the next day and we went out to Sardini's, which is in North Beach. This is an Italian place. Came back to the studio. He says, yeah, I want to show you these things. And he pulls out this binder and inside are these things called anti-poems that he tried.

And what he did is he took this paperback book and he made like boxes around a few words and then covered the rest with his collage work, it looks pretty much identical to my newspaper blackout poems, which are, I take an article from the New York Times and I black out most of the words and just leave some of them behind. It looks like the CIA did haiku or the Mueller report. It's just like this redacted poetry. And it turns out that he had read in the 80s, he had read this book by Tom Phillips called A Whom You Meant, which is really influential on my own work. So, like, not only did we share this connection through the letter, he had also attempted similar work because we had shared influences. That's amazing. So, it was this really cosmic sort of crazy thing.

And now we're friends. You know, now when I'm in San Francisco, I try to, like, see him and hang out. That's amazing. position where with the internet, you're just so easily, I had to sort of do a lot of work as a kid to find him and write him this letter. And he did me an enormous generosity, you know, sending one back. But now we're in this instantaneous moment where like anybody can find me and anyone can talk to me. And I realized recently that that opportunity to have a sort of moment like that is really difficult because, so that's what I'm trying to do in the books. Like the books now are my version of Winston's letter to me. That was exactly where my curiosity was. I'm sort of like, like, is, are these essentially your way to, to turn around and, and be that role, but

kind of to mass numbers of people. I think so. And I only thought about this, you know, a couple of years ago, but I realized that still like an artist is essentially exactly what Winston said in his letter to me. I mean, it is even like,

it lays out for people how a collage-like approach to art works the best. But it also is a very, not traditional book, but it's a very sensible book. It says things like, take care of yourself. Don't ruin yourself for your art. Have a decent, be regular and orderly in your life so you can be violent and original in your work, as Flaubert said, you know? So, Steal Like an Artist essentially contains that message that Winston gave to me. And it's essentially a book that gives you permission.

I think that's really what people get from it is like, you can be an artist, like you can do this. It's just, it takes work. And so, now I look at these books and I'm like, oh, well, they're like Winston's letter. It's just for strangers. Yeah. It's like, yeah, they're permission slips. Yeah, they're permission slips. And I wondered about that for a long time because I was like, people said, oh, you gave me permission. I was like, well, I'm not a teacher handing out bathroom passes, you know, I mean, permission, what are you talking

about? But I get it now. I got it the other, a couple of years ago, I went to a show by Nina Cacciadoria and she's a sort of conceptualist, really funny artist. And I was there in this show and I realized, oh, she's giving me permission. Like me being in this show is giving me permission to use humor in real art. And I got it finally, what people were saying about me giving them permission in the books. Cause I felt like that Nina Katchadourian show

gave me permission in a sense to do work that was more natural to me yeah mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I mean, it seems like also there's, it does feel like beyond permission. I mean, there's a lot of great wisdom and nuggets and art in all three books, you know, and the latest keep going, which I know it's interesting to me because, so the latest I've heard,

also I've heard you describe as like the first half is to stop the bleeding and the second half is to help you heal. Yeah. Yeah. So I just felt like this book is sort of a corrective. It's like what your life is going to be from here on out and sort of beginning the healing process so it is like stop the bleeding and then start to heal yeah um and i guess when i hear that you know like the bleeding like there's so many levels just like deconstruct that right it's like do we even want to go into that rabbit hole? I don't know. There was actually, I mean, there are so many things where I like wanted to dog ear this, but it would have basically just been one massive dog ear book. But there's one little like kind of fun note here.

I'll show it to you. Oh, yeah. It's a quick little thing. It just says it's like a to-do list. And clearly you're a huge fan of lists as anyone who's read your stuff knows, you know, but this really resonated with me. I'll read it to you guys. It says to do, leave money on the table, forget to take things to the next level, let the low hanging fruit fall off and rot. I just, you know, I really wanted to, we're just, you know, we're just so trained now to think about our work in market terminology. And just, you know, I wanted this book to let to say, hey, it's okay to not do things

for profit is almost like this, you know, in this economy and this like hustle mentality, it's almost like, it's almost like, you know, forward thinking or something. I mean, but it's also like, I truly believe that part of my work is just taking old ideas and resurrecting them. You know, you figure out what you hate in the culture right now, and then you just go back and dig something up and like present it to people again. And they're like, oh yeah, that's right. We used to do, you know, we used to have hobbies. We didn't have side hustles.

We had hobbies and, you know, we used to do things for fun, stuff like that. So I'm just, I just really, but you know, a lot of this stuff is notes to myself. You know, this is a book I wrote cause I needed to read it. Yeah. It's not like you're preaching from on high word. Like you've got it down. I mean, you know, and I, I really think like I, anytime someone calls me a guru or something like something awful like that, I just cringe because so much of what my work is, is it's me figuring stuff out and then packaging it for other people. Like it's like all of my books are the residue of me trying to figure this stuff out for myself in the same way that I think Winston's letter was. It was like, this is what I've been through. This is what I've learned.

And, you know, this is what I figured out from, you know, it's not like, it's not from this position, like I've been to the mountain. Let me give you these stone tablets, even though they are 10 commandments, you know, it's good enough for Moses, good enough for me.

But yeah, I just, I just really, I want as much as I can, as I continue in my career, to be be a teacher but remain a student, basically. I want each of my books to have, I want people reading them to feel like this dude struggles with this stuff too. It's not like he's just some robed spiritual leader who's like figured it out and now we we all sit at his feet and like, you know, I'm in the trend, like I'm working on this stuff too. I'm trying to figure this out. And that's just the only way I can possibly do these somewhat prescriptive books. You know, they're like a prescription, you know, like you're bleeding, you know. Right. But it's almost like you're writing

the script for yourself first. Yeah, definitely. And oh, by the way, maybe this will help you guys too. Yeah. I mean, this helped me. I just have confidence that if it helps me, then maybe it'll help a tiny, just population-wise, there'll be readers that helps. But yeah, I needed to write this because I needed to read it. Yeah. this i needed to write this because i needed to read it yeah do you think that's something unique to when you look at at the the so many different ways that um people express themselves creatively uh with painting music whatever it may be um do you think that particular orientation is unique to writers? Could be. So many writers are readers first. You know, it's pretty impossible to be a decent writer without being a great reader first. But I think it's also pretty impossible

to be a good musician while listening to music. True enough. I do think that it's an ethos in a sense and that I am a fan. I really think of myself as a fan first. I am really someone who loves this stuff. I mean, I'm a great, you know, people ask me sometimes like, how much do you consume versus create? And first of all, it's pretty much the same input output for me, but I would say, oh my

God, at least five to one, you know, time wise. Yeah. On the consumption side. I mean, cause you got to fill up in order to, you know, you got to fill up the well in order to pull the water out, you know? So I don't, you know, I, I do wonder though, I mean, I'm just wired that way. You know, I just, I, I think that celebrating the work of others is always going to be part of my work. That was part of my work when I started out. And I think that will continue to be part of my work. It's just how I'm wired. Interesting too, right?

Because if you go back to Winston Smith, like his approach was, you know, it was a lot of collage work. He was taking a lot of the stuff that was created by other people and putting them together and in like a way creating something new and simultaneously celebrating that. So it's interesting to trace that through lines, right? And to do that, you have to be a great student of the form. Like you have to collect a bunch of stuff. You have to look back to the past.

Winston would send me these wonderful ads from some of the magazines that he cut these illustrations out, like these old ads from the 40s and 50s. There was one ad they sent me where there was a cop pointing at the camera, and he was saying, you know, you can always tell a troublemaker by the way he looks. And it was an ad for, like, menswear. But it was, like, this cop pointing at the camera saying, you know, you can tell how a kid, you know, and it was funny because I think Burroughs used to write about how, well, if you look like a square, you can get away with anything. You know, that's the white man's privilege, of

course. But like, you know, I remember him sending me this great, these great ads, you know, so he was a student of what was going on back then too. But yeah, I'm the same way. Like I just, I just, I love being a student. I just love learning. That's what I want to do. And, and I mean, um, one of my favorite weekly reads is your newsletter. Thank you. I have to make, I have to make tomorrow's tonight. Sorry, man. I won't keep you much longer. No, no, no. But I, but it, I mean, I bring it up simply because it's a reflection of the vast volume of work from all over the place that you consume. For those who have never seen it, definitely subscribe to it.

But it's sort of like a weekly excerpts and list of just fascinating, cool, interesting things to explore in nearly every domain from film to music to writing to, you name it, it's like, it's in there. But what it also is, is it's a window into who you are, how you spend your time and what you find interesting. It's a diary. It's a weekly diary, yeah. And I think that's what's really fun to me

about the newsletter form is the newsletter now is much more of what my blog was when I first started out. It was like a bunch of stuff that I was into and I wanted to share it with other people. And I started the newsletter as a very, it was like a marketing ploy. You know, it was like, oh, well, I'll do this new newsletter and I'll get everyone's email and then we'll have something to sell. I'll sell it to them in this newsletter. And it sort of started out that way. But over time, it's become like one of my favorite things that I do because it's ritualized now. And it's a way for me to sort of look back on my week and be like, where have you been this week? You know, so it's tough like this week, cause I haven't cracked a book. I've been traveling with my family. So it's like, well, what do I tell people?

What do I show people this week? And I'm like, well, just tell people you haven't cracked a book this week. Here's a list of that you made back in the, you know what I mean? And there's a sort of like truth. I try to be really truthful with the newsletter. I don't link to things I haven't read,

you know, cause there's a lot of people you can sort of, and they do a service, you know, there's a lot of people that, okay, here's the productivity articles from this week. And like, that has its place. But like, for me, I just, I just don't link to stuff that I don't really like. And, you know, it costs me followers sometimes too. Cause there's some people who don't like to go along on the weird ride but those aren't the people i want hanging out yeah you know um which i think kind of starts to bring us full circle in in a certain way kind of back to your current book keep going because you wrap it up um with a chapter um that you call plant your garden yeah

talk to me about this a bit. Why did this have to be in there and what's it about? Well, it was sort of inspired by two things. One, it's a complete lift from Thoreau. I mean, this is the great insight from reading Thoreau as you realize he was the great chronicler of the seasons, the great American chronicler of the seasons, when you read Thoreau's journal, the way I read it, which is I read the days he wrote on the day he wrote them. So like May 1st, I read all the May 1st entries in the little abridged diary I have of his. And when you read it this way, you realize he repeats himself all the time. You'll read an entry from 1851, and it'll echo an entry from like 1844

where I'm making up these dates, you know. But he like repeats himself constantly, and he's a great chronicler of the seasons. And he says, you know, the goal of life for Thoreau is to recognize what season you're in and live accordingly. And so in springtime, you operate like it's spring. In winter, you, you know. So in the book,

it's a lift from Thoreau, but it's also gardening presented itself as a metaphor. And lots of people use gardening as a different metaphor. But watching my wife in the garden was, because I'm not a gardener myself, but I would watch my wife in the garden working. And gardening became this metaphor that to me seemed essentially the opposite of so much of what we're pushed to do right now. Because gardening is about creating rich environments in which plants can thrive. And so Alison Gopnik has written a book about the gardener versus the carpenter and thinking about yourself as a parent, as a gardener. But then I found out all my musicians that I really look up to, a lot of them talk about gardening. So Kraftwerk called their studio an electronic garden.

Prince wrote Roadhouse Garden, which is one of his great B-sides. You know, this is the place where ideas grow, or is it emotions grow? Yeah, this is the place where emotions grow 24 tracks all in a row. And he was talking about his mixing desk, thinking about that as a garden. So for me, the big message was every day you get is a sort of seed that you can plant with your effort. And these seeds blossom into something on down the road. And that's how to sort of think about, that's how I want to think about my career now is that I'm planting these seeds and they will grow into something over time. And part of my job is to know what season I'm in and act accordingly. And to be able to have that sort of long-term, you know, because I wouldn't do this forever, you know, until I'd

fall over, like David Hockney says, you know, I want to work until I fall over. I just had to have this sort of way of thinking about what it is I do. And for me, the idea that creativity has seasons, sometimes it's winter, sometimes it's spring, and you just have to be patient and plant your seeds and grow. That was just really important to me to end on that note. That resonated so much because it almost, it gives you the freedom to think long-term and the forgiveness to be where you are. Yeah. I mean, just to be where you are. Yeah.

I mean, just to be where you are, to whatever season you're in, to accept it and to just act accordingly. Because I know now when it's winter for me, it's time to store up, time to read, time to take in, fatten up. And then when it's harvest time, then you reap, you know. So, yeah, it's, and I wonder, you know, I always, I sort of wonder, you know, my grandfather was a farmer and lost the farm in the 80s. And I always wonder, like, do we, are there unlived lives in us based on our circumstances? I mean, I never know about that thing, but you know, yeah, here I was growing up in the cornfield and all I wanted to do was make art. And then here I have this book that's about growing things. You know, I had ignored farming all those years. I was

in the middle of the cornfield and now I'm using gardening as a metaphor. That's pretty much life for you, right? Something stayed with me there. Whether through osmosis or conscious. Or just age, right? I think it's just age. Just the accumulation of the years. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle too. So as we sit here in this container of Good Life Project,

if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Oh man, just of good life project if I offer up the phrase to live a good life? What comes up? Oh man, just to, just to good life. Just to, just to plant each day in a way, you know, just to use it up, just to use up the day, just to wring it out, you know? And to just, just to be, you know, my, my agent, he's always like, just be a mensch. You know, I'm not, I just be a mensch, you know, my agent, he's always like, just be a mensch. You know, I'm not, just be a mensch, you know, a human being, as they say in the apartment.

You know, just to be as human as you can, just to be good and be kind. And I think about kindness a lot now, you know, especially as a dad, just to try to, I worry a lot less now about being a great artist and a lot more about being a decent human being that makes art. Because I just think the world needs better human beings. It doesn't necessarily need better artists. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do.

You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk