Good Life Project - Liz Dolan: Mega-Business, Side-Hustles and Podcasting.

Episode Date: August 14, 2017

So, how exactly did the global head of marketing for Nike become a podcaster?From studying Comparative Literature and French to becoming the head of marketing at mega-brands like Nike, OWN, National Geographic Channels and Fox International, Liz Dolan has taken the world of big business by storm.But in between these high-profile gigs, she found herself diving into deeply personal endeavors and side-hustles, with a focus on creativity, media and storytelling.Most recently, she left the world of mega-business to host a great podcast, I Hate My Boss, where Dolan and co-host, Larry Seal, help people navigate the drama, highs, lows and angsty moments of modern-day work. And as a fun bonus, on the same day we're airing her conversation on Good Life Project, GLP founder, Jonathan Fields, is also featured on I Hate My Boss.You’d Never Guess: What NIKE founder, Phil Night, said to her when she told him she was leaving.Current Passion Project: I Hate My Boss podcast.Rockstar Sponsors: Are you hiring? Do you know where to post your job to find the best candidates? Unlike other job sites, ZipRecruiter doesn’t depend on candidates finding you; it finds them. And right now, my listeners can post jobs on ZipRecruiter for FREE, That’s right. FREE! Just go to ZipRecruiter.com/good.Wondering what's for dinner? Blue Apron is the #1 fresh ingredient and recipe delivery service in the country, whose mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone. Check out this week’s Blue Apron menu and get your first THREE meals FREE—WITH FREE SHIPPING—by going to blueapron.com/goodlife.Hey, Listeners! We want to get to know you better! Good Life Project is conducting a quick survey with our friends at Wondery. It only takes a few minutes of your time and you can do it straight from your smartphone. Help us out and support the show by going to wondery.com/SURVEY. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Not every conversation will change your life, but any conversation can. So a sort of openness to people and to listening to people and what they could be teaching you, you'd be surprised when you go back through your life and think of the totally random conversations that have stuck with you and actually taught you something unexpected. So every once in a while, I get to spotlight a friend who is also a fellow podcast host slash producer slash awesome human. This week's guest, Liz Dolan, is just that. She, in fact, is the co-host of a podcast whose name I love, I Hate My Boss. And it's all about the world of work.

And it's done in a really interesting, creative way where she kind of gets to drop, along with her co-host, Larry Seale, some amazing wisdom about how you build your career and how you make your decisions. I am very excited to also be a guest on their podcast this week. We kind of had fun trading conversations. And what's really cool also is that Liz is my guest here with us today, and we dive into her journey because I got curious, where did she learn all of this sort of like crazy, awesome wisdom about building a career? It turns out she actually went to school and graduated with a degree in comparative literature and French. And from there somehow ended up as the global head of marketing for Nike, then kind of pendulum back into this massively creative non-mega company world and has gone back and forth between these huge, huge, huge organizations at highest levels, and then these deeply personal creative endeavors for years at a time. I was really fascinated how

that informed her lens on building a career, building a meaningful work life and living a good life. And that's where we're going today. Liz Dolan, co-host of I Hate My Boss, you can hear me over there. I think it's airing today as well also. And a deep dive into her amazing journey. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So a little bit of background investigation on you very quickly revealed that you grew up in a, you were an only child. No, I was the exact opposite of an only child, Jonathan. Okay, so maybe there were seven or eight or nine or 12 siblings or something like that. Yes, something like that. Yes, I have seven siblings. And so in my family, there are five girls and three boys. But I'm number four, I'm right in

the middle. So I actually think being the middle child in a huge family taught me everything I needed to know for business. That's, I feel like I can get along with a lot of different kinds of people. I'm used to not getting my own way. I'm used to knowing that I am not the center of the universe. All those kinds of life lessons I learned as a child have been really valuable to me as an adult in the working world. Yeah, no, that's pretty amazing. It's like you have your own boardroom to sort of like, try things out and learn all the lessons around from the earliest days. It's kind of fun too, because you know, when I look at your trajectory, and one of the things I really want to explore with you is, you've got this sort of like pendulum swing of

a trajectory in terms of how you've built your sort of adult professional life. But you went to Brown for I think, Com, comparative lit and French. Is that right? Correct. Yes. Yes. So I was highly pre-professionally focused, obviously, choosing comparative literature and French. Exactly. Right. But what's going on in your head that makes you say, okay, this is where your interests really lay then? I came out of a high school that was a Catholic school, but sort of a hippy-dippy Catholic school where we had no grades and it was all about love of learning. And so I kind of had that going on in my head anyway, the sort of follow your heart with what you love. Paired with both of my parents,

but particularly my father, felt like the most important thing in school, especially in college, it was the one piece of advice he gave me going to college. He said, it doesn't matter what you take as long as you find the best professors. He had this feeling that like everything is interesting, everything is learning, just go find the people that are the best teachers and do that. And so that, you know, I was very humanities oriented anyways, but that's what landed me in comparative literature, which was mainly, you know, modern literature, French literature, and a lot of classics. I took a lot of classics courses again, because there was this guy named Bruce Donovan, who was just the most awesome professor. So if I could get in Bruce Donovan's class every semester, I did. So that set me on my path.

Yeah. And I'm fascinated by your dad now. Because, okay, so we've got eight kids, potentially, to go through college. And the piece of advice he gives you is really doesn't matter what you study, just find good people to learn from and any topic will do. That's a really unusual orientation. So tell me more about your dad. I'm really curious now. So my father, he was very, when he went to school, he was in the Second World War very briefly and then came back and started college right after that. So he was that era. And he loved literature and classics. He made all of the kids. We either had to take Latin or Greek at some point in high school. He just really believed in all of that. But then when he got out of college,

his father ran a small steel mill in Bridgeport, Connecticut, a business he had started himself. And he just expected his two sons to come and be in the family business. And in fact, the two sons did, my father and his brother. But my father really always had aspirations that were well outside of business. And he would kind of write plays on his own, none of which were ever produced, but he was constantly dragging it. We grew up right outside of New York City in Connecticut. He would drag us into the city for these weird experimental plays. Or we just saw a lot of Samuel Beckett when you're 10 years old. You just have no idea what is going on, Jonathan. But you know your father

is loving this. So he always balanced his working life running a very industrial business with an interest in art and literature and culture from all over the world. And so I think he didn't send us off to college thinking college was where you learn how to put a roof over your head. College is where you learn how to think and express yourself and write and things that are going to be important no matter what you do. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's also really revealing, I think, because it sounds like, and this is one of the things I want to dive into with a lot also, is this, you've always sort of had this thing going on on the side, even though you've had these

really huge careers in corporate America. Do you connect that directly with sort of like that similar orientation with your dad? Not until this very moment when you said that. That's a good insight that I had never really thought about. Yes, it's clear that I always felt like you can have a job and a business and something that you're good at and it's hard and you get a good paycheck from. But that doesn't mean that's all that's in you. And there can always be more if you want to express that, work on that. And so you're right. I've had this sort of pendulum swing. I've always, during all those years where I was running marketing at Nike, I was also like creating, that's when I created Satellite Sisters as a radio show. I always had these sort of what would now be called a side hustle. But for me, it was

just creative expression outside of my job, that I did not expect my job to provide 100% of my working satisfaction, you know, but I always did have very satisfying jobs. So it's not like I was working in a coal mine and then, you know, writing operas on the side. Like I had great stimulating, demanding jobs, but then I always had some creative energy left over and I tried to use that instead of ignore it. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting. I kind of want to deconstruct the different steps along the journey with you because I think it's pretty fascinating. So you come out of school with a doing comparative lit. And at some point, you end up running marketing for Nike.

But there's something in the middle there. Yes. That was not a straight line up. Yeah. When I got out of school, I did what like all of my friends were doing, which was move to New York City and try to find a job. And I actually, I found a job in the small advertising and PR department at a retailer in New York. And the only requirement for the job, there was only one other person in the department. There was the head of the department, and then she needed an assistant. And then the only thing she really needed her assistant to know was how to speak French, because headquarters was in Paris, and they would call and she could not talk to them. So somehow I managed to, like, wheedle my way into that job. I did that for a little while. And then I ended up

at a advertising and PR agency in New York for about eight years working on a bunch of different clients. So I did that really throughout my 20s. I spent that whole era in New York working in PR and advertising. Got it. And so it was actually like the friends that got you into advertising and marketing to a certain extent, which is kind of interesting, right? I know. People said it was actually like the friends that got you into advertising and marketing to a certain extent, which is kind of interesting, right? I know. People said it was impossible. People said it was a useless skill, Jonathan. But turns out you never know what's going to get you in the door somewhere.

You just never, ever know. Yeah, that's so interesting, right? Because so many people go and they study marketing and advertising and they're looking for that entry-level job. And it's almost like it goes back to your dad's advice, right? It's sort of like just... And there's this one thing which is off to the side, which was just an interest of yours, and that's the differentiator that pulls you into this industry. Yeah. And I think there's something else about my father's advice, which is when somebody tells you to focus on who you're learning from. That same thing applies to your boss as it does to your professors in college, right? So when you're making career choices along the way, I have always gravitated to the people I really feel I could learn something from rather than what is this profession per se.

So for you, was it less about the profession then and more about like, this is an interesting person? I'd love to work with him for a while and see what happens. Yeah, yeah, in the very beginning. But then I knew that that was the sort of marketing PR. Like, I knew that because I was all about writing and speaking and those kinds of things, that it was a natural fit for my actual skills, not so much my academic training, but my actual skills. So I was very interested in doing those kinds of things. But I wouldn't say that I actually knew what it was. I just knew that was a business. People do that for a living. But I had never studied it. I figured you get out of school and then you go start doing it. And that's when you figure out, do you like this or not? And are you good at this or not? Yeah. So you're doing this for about eight or nine years. And then

in your mind, is there a trajectory? Like, are you like, this is, I like this, this is where I want to go. This is what's building. Or is it just like, this is interesting. And then the next thing comes along and it's like, this is interesting in a different way, which adds to it. I'm always curious about how deliberate, because if you look at your career, you have ended up in some extraordinary places. And I'm always really curious how deliberate that path was for different people. It was not that deliberate. So I would like to say that I have just followed these steps and you can have the career of your dreams. The way I ended up at Nike was that I was working in New York and I think I had just turned 30

and I was kind of thinking about, okay, what do I want the next phase of my life to be? And I had decided that I wanted a dramatic change, that I wanted to move to a smaller city, not spend the next phase of my life in New York City as much as I loved it. I wanted to work for a company that was exciting and global and all of the things I had in New York, but didn't necessarily have to be in New York. I wanted to live in a place where I could afford to buy a house. I had decided that was important to me. And I wanted to live in a

place where I could go skiing on the weekends. That was literally that was important to me. And I wanted to live in a place where I could go skiing on the weekends. That was literally my life plan, Jonathan. Like I was sitting around in my office in Midtown Manhattan, and that was everything on my list. A house, skiing, like global company, but you know, something really energetic. And I'm lucky that I got a call from a headhunter about a job to go run PR at Nike. And originally, I thought, like, where is that? And remember, this was the late 80s. So it's not, it wasn't like Nike. Right. And this is also before Portland was Portland. Yes. Portland was not Portland. Exactly. Portland was not Portland and Nike was not Nike. And I was like, okay, I know I wanted to get out of New York, but that far out of New York, maybe not so

much. And I had gotten that call on a Friday and I spent the weekend sort of thinking about it and really ruminating. And I realized, well, that kind of job actually ticked every box on my very short list. I would be able to do all of those things that I had just sort of set out in the back of my mind. Like, yeah, Portland, Oregon, sure. It was nothing if not affordable at that phase. And a company that was really on the verge of becoming a big global powerhouse, you could kind of feel the energy around that. So that's how that happened. So I went out. So I called the headhunter back on Monday. And I said, you know what? Yeah, I'll talk to them. That seems like something I could be interested in. I was a little bit daunted by the sports part of it. Not that I'm not sporting, because, you know, I skied and played tennis and did things like that. But I really didn't know about professional sports. It's not like I spent a lot of time, you know, watching the NBA or the NFL. And so I thought I might not be qualified for this at all, but I might as well give it a go.

And I went out there and I spent the day there and was interviewed by all kinds of people. And the last person who interviewed me was the founder of the company, Phil Knight, who was the CEO. And one of the things I said to him, I said, you know, I'm not exactly a sports junkie. Like, I know the difference between Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan, but it doesn't go a lot deeper than that. And he said, oh, don't worry. Everybody else here knows deeper than that. And he said, Oh, don't worry. Everybody else here knows all about that. We don't need more people that know that, which I think was also very shrewd on his part. Yeah. And of course, a lot of people know his name these days. Yes. Were you concerned

at all? I mean, it's interesting also, because so you hit 30 and you're like, okay, so it's time for sort of like the next big thing. The move from going from like in that world and sort of like branding, marketing, advertising, sort of like everyone aspires to go to get to New York. And like your aspiration became to almost go somewhere where everything was the opposite of New York. I'm curious what was happening underneath the hood that motivated that? Yeah, I just did not feel like everything exciting going on in business was happening on the island of Manhattan.

I just, for as much fun as I had living there and working there and as stimulating as my work environment was, I could look around the country and see that there were lots of fascinating things happening in the West or in the South or, you know, cities like Minneapolis were popping out to me. Denver was popping out to me. You know, those kinds of things were appealing to me. So I guess I was, even though I had only ever lived in the Northeast, I was not a snob about the fact that that's the only place interesting in the world. And I was really ready to go live someplace, as I used to say, just west of New Jersey was pretty much my goal. It's funny, because if you grow up in the Northeast, you kind of like most people understand

that we know there's like New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Vermont, we think, and then there's a Hudson River, and then there's something. Exactly. And if you don't grow up here, you're like, oh, I can't believe you're so self-important. There's a whole universe out there. But it is funny how much of a bubble it becomes. It is. And I was ready to bust out of the bubble for sure.

And I can't explain to you why. I just knew that, you know, I remember saying to my friends, you know, if I leave, I am allowed to come back. It's not like they revoke your passport and you can never come back. So I was not worried about that. And sometimes I feel like people worry too much that every decision they make is permanent and final. Like we are closing the gate once you leave Manhattan and you're never going to be allowed to come back here. That is just not true. And I was not daunted by that at all.

Yeah. And that's actually a great point, because I do think so many of us, we kind of feel like we're defined by the title rather than the competency that we develop that follows us anywhere we go. And if that means going forward, going forward, if it means returning to a place we've been before, it's like, I think a lot of us have trouble sort of separating those two. Mm-hmm. I think that's true too. And I think you're sort of, you're in an environment in New York City, obviously in the marketing, advertising, PR world, there are just a million

interesting clients and agencies and lots of things happening, but you can't let that convince you that that's the only place something interesting things happening. But you can't let that convince you that that's the only place something interesting is happening. And I just wanted to get out while the getting was good. I also felt like if I didn't go now, later was going to be harder. So if I wanted to make a big life change and career change, now was the time. Yeah. And I'm fascinated because that sort of 30-year-old inflection point was a similar moment for me. I was – It was? a career. I had no interest in becoming a partner. And I realized that right around that same age, I said, if I stay in this for much longer, I'm going to start to construct a lifestyle around this that will be brutally hard for me to probably ever think about leaving for another 20, 25 years.

So I kind of felt like it was now or never. Did you have that similar thing? Exactly. That is so smart. And that is exactly the way I felt. I even remember walking home up Madison Avenue one night and just looking at the people around me and thinking, I do not want to be one of these people 15 years from now. Again, as much as I love it, it's not, I wasn't judging. It's like, this is not the life I want for me right now. Yeah. So yeah, you got to make a break while you can. Yeah. Take your moment. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. It's also really kind of interesting to me that you were so self-aware that you looked at all these metrics outside of where you wanted to live, like the access to all these different things, and, where you wanted to live, the access to

all these different things. And you said, this stuff actually really, really, really matters. And I so often think that it takes us a lot longer for so many of us to kind of realize, oh, there's all these other outside of work and lifestyle metrics that are equally, if not more important than the actual sort of context of the work that I'm doing on a day-to-day basis if I want to live a good life. That is very true. And I guess I was self-aware enough to know that there's more I want to add to this, that I liked the idea of having a very stimulating career, but I didn't want to only be that. So yeah, so I ran. Ran while I could. Did you feel like you were more running from or running to? Definitely running to, for sure. Yes, I definitely wanted to try something new. I

wanted to be in a new place and have a different sort of quality of life. So it was super exciting. I remember I moved to Portland, Oregon on August 1st, 1988. And it was just a gorgeous day in the Pacific Northwest. And, you know, Oregon is so beautiful during the summer and August, September, October, it was just one perfect day after another. And I remember saying to a colleague at Nike, like, in late October, like, I don't know why you guys keep complaining about the weather. I think it is gorgeous here. And he said to me, like, just wait until Halloween. The curtain comes down on Halloween. And sure enough, poured on Halloween night, all those poor kids in their costumes have

to wear their raincoats over their costumes. And then it pretty much rained every day until Memorial Day. So yeah, but it was fine. I loved it. That's too funny. I've had a similar experience. I've been out there in the summer for the last seven years. And every time like, this is great. Maybe I should move here. And my friends who live there, they're like, come in November. Then tell me like, you really want to do that and come in February. It's really true. So you end up spending a decade at Nike and rising up the ranks in Nike. And tell me sort of like a little bit about the trajectory within that company and how you felt about being there, how it changed you along the way. It was so the perfect environment for me, and I could kind of sense that very quickly. It was a young company then, comparatively speaking.

In 1988, Nike was an $800 million company, and now I think it's like $32 billion or something. So it felt pretty small then. But it was just a great sense of like teamwork and camaraderie and kind of like we are really starting something here that is very different than other people have done before. And so I loved all of those parts of it. And because it was a growth business, it really meant if you were ambitious and hardworking, there was always more work for you to do. And you could always volunteer for like the next best assignment. And it's advice that I often give to women in particular, that if you really want to have equal opportunity, you need to get yourself into a growth business where they are just so desperate for anyone to do the work that they really couldn't care less what

gender you are. They just need someone to throw into the breach. And that was pretty much the sense. I always said it was like the nuts running the nut house during that era. And especially the first like three years, late 80s, early 90s. And then there was a sense of, you know, okay, now we are a real grown up company. Oh my God, what do we do now? And that was fun, too. So I was the first I was the PR director, and then I became the corporate communications director. So that included like investor relations and community relations and other things. Then at a certain point, the CEO, Phil Knight, he actually came to me and asked if I would be willing to become the head of marketing in Europe. Did I want to

move to the Amsterdam headquarters and run marketing there? And I remember saying to him, you know, I've never really had a real marketing job. I'm over here in the communications side, and marketing at Nike is super product-focused. It is you are really deciding what do we make. It's not the advertising communications side. And he said, well, just go think about it. Go think. I want you to at least consider that you would take that on. And so I stood about it for a week, and I thought, first of all, what kind of idiot says to their boss, I don't know if I'm qualified for that job. That's other advice I often give people. Never say that, even if you're thinking it. Do not say that to the person trying to get

you to take a big promotion. And I thought about it for a week. And then I came back and we had another discussion. And I had decided I was going to take it. I had decided like, you just got to go for it. Somebody offers you something like that. You just, you know, you can't say no to that. And he started the meeting by saying, I changed my mind about that. And of course, in my mind, then I'm saying, yeah, I'm not really qualified. You're right. But at least I was smart enough not to say that out loud. Because the next thing he said is, instead of moving you to Europe, I'd rather have you just stay here and be the global marketing director. And I said, okay, again, you do realize I have never had a job in our marketing department. And he just said, I'm pretty confident you'll be able to figure it out. And that was a major turning point. Like when you have a boss that has that kind of confidence in you, that's the same thing as going and finding the best professors. You know, it's the same lesson to me. Work for the people who, you know, will teach you something and who believe in you. So that moment was all about that. Yeah. I mean, it's so cool because it's not just like, wow, cool, interesting job, but so revealing about the nature of the founder. And did you feel like that was the culture that sort of trickled down from Phil? Did it embody that same thing or was it really unique to him in the way that he interacted

with people? No, it definitely, he set a standard in the culture where there are like two main attributes, I think, that he taught me or that he modeled for everyone. One is he's super competitive. You know, do not take anything lying down. But externally oriented with that. So like it is really about winning this. And that just comes from, you know, being an athlete and just really loving the competitive spirit. So he was super competitive, but also super honest, which was much more of an

internal value where I was shocked when I first started there, how frankly everyone spoke to each other. And I had come out of an agency world where you totally edited yourself. You certainly edited what you said in front of a client. And if you were one department, you would never say something about another department in front of a client, like even in a group meeting. I got to Nike, it was exactly the opposite. We would have these meetings and, you know, the advertising director would present stuff and everyone in the room had an opinion on it. And I could not believe it for like the first three months. And then I thought, this is exactly what I love. This is really all hands on deck in the best possible way. And I think he's the one that really modeled that

for us that you just need to, if you did something wrong, say it. If you love something, say it. It's like the whole point here is that we can be honest with each other. Yeah. I'm curious how that ties in with the dinner table with eight kids lessons. It's like, there's this common theme. Like, you're clearly it's like almost like rebuilding this ethos everywhere you go or somehow looking to find it and finding it in different people in different cultures. Yeah, I think that's true. I think there was something about the free-for-all nature of it that appealed to me. It also helped that I wasn't intimidated by boys. You know, I learned that at the dinner table because the older two in my family are, you know, my two oldest brothers. And so we had just always learned to like speak up for ourselves, even though the boys were bigger, older, stronger, louder. So that was very helpful inside the Nike culture.

Yeah. Not to be intimidated by the boys. They're all just perfectly nice, just like my brothers. Yeah. But also it's not to be intimidated by the role or by what was being asked of you. I mean, you had a job where you sat there and you said, I don't, this is not my wheelhouse. And somebody else said, you'll figure it out. And there's something inside of you that says, well, yeah, I will. Yeah. Because that's about the power of the team. That is understanding

that you do not have to really do everything all by yourself. You have to lead a high-functioning team. So for as daunting as it was, it wasn't impossible because you looked around at who your colleagues were and you thought, well, you know, together we can figure this out. I have no idea what to do, but together we'll be able to figure this out. And that was very much the ethos inside the company. Yeah. So you stay there for a total of about 10 years, right? So you're there for about a decade, rise into this position where essentially you're running marketing for the entire company, working on the highest levels there. It sounds like your job is super rewarding in almost every way. And you wake up one day and say, I'm done.

Correct. Yes. Take me there. You know, it's not like it was actually one day, of course, but it was a feeling. I actually went in and resigned on my 40th birthday. But I had been thinking about it for a while because for as much as I loved that job, I had this other creative itch that I needed to scratch. And it was just a crazy thing that I don't know why it became so important to me, but it did. I just had this idea that I wanted to start a talk radio show for women, that I love listening to radio and audio of all kinds now. And so much of what I heard was men on sports

and men on politics. And I just had this idea in my head, like, why doesn't someone create a show that's women talking to each other the way women talk about these things? And I just, I don't know, it just became like a really important thing for me to go try. And I realized, I talked to my four sisters about it. And once I realized I could rope them into it, they were like, oh, yeah, sure, Liz, you go ahead, you figure out how we can do that. You go get that radio show for us and call us when you get that radio show. And I thought, okay, I am really going to do that. Now, the gauntlet has been thrown down. So when I resigned from Nike, it was specifically to go explore the possibility of what became Satellite Sisters. There were a lot of people that did not believe that that's really what I was going to go do.

Right, because from the outside looking in, it's kind of like, what? You're working in this amazing company that's revered. You have a relationship with this legendary founder. You have this incredible power job. And A, a lot of people couldn't imagine leaving something like that. But then B, to leave something like this, which seems so radically different and high risk and operating on a profoundly different scale. Tell me about the conversations around that. But you know, Jonathan, as I'm telling you this story, I realize it was kind of the same feeling about leaving New York.

Like, you know, they do allow you back. So I remember having the confidence that I could leave a corporate job and go do something else that was very creative and entrepreneurial. And then if that didn't work out, I could always get another corporate job for whatever reason. I just had confidence that no matter what happened, I was going to be okay. I had been marketing director at Nike. I was going to be able to get another job if I needed one, but I just didn't need one right now. I needed to go do something else right now. And so I didn't overthink it too much.

And a lot of people, especially a lot of colleagues at work, when I would tell them what I was going to go do, they immediately said, no, really? What are you really going to do? And they kind of assumed I had some secret big promotion that I was getting at some other company. And I was like, no, believe me, if I'm going to work in this world, I'm going to work here. I love this company, but I just need to do something different now. So that's what I did. Yeah. So interesting.

When you went in the day that you actually resigned, did you resign directly to Phil or was it? Yes. What was that conversation like? It was so revealing because, you know, he had been such a great mentor of mine and I loved working for him and we had a really good working relationship. And I knew that he trusted me and counted on me. But I told him that I needed to go off and do something else. And here's exactly what he said, I remember. He said, you can't do that. He said, you're not just Liz Dolan, you're Nike's Liz Dolan. That's how everyone in the world knows you. Nike's Liz Dolan. And I was like, wow, if you were going to try to talk me out of this, you just said exactly the wrong thing. And we both laughed. He's like, oh, my God, I did. Right. Yeah. OK. Yeah. I see what I just

did there because, you know, he was right. And that's exactly what I was feeling. We just had different ways of reacting to what that meant. Like, he just couldn't understand why I wouldn't want to be Nike's Liz Dolan the whole rest of my career. Yeah, so interesting, right? The two just radically different lenses on the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's not that I and I liked being Nike's Liz Dolan, but I knew I didn't only need to be Nike's Liz Dolan. So it was just the right moment for me. Right. So where do you go from there? I mean, this radio show becomes a radio show. Yeah. Yeah. So I spent a couple of years working on that and, you know, pitching it around and we did a pilot. And ultimately we got picked up by WNYC Radio in New York and syndicated by PRI. So

that was great. It actually worked. We had a once a week show on the weekends on, you know, 100 public radio stations around the country. And then ultimately, we moved that show to ABC radio because they wanted to give us a live three hour a day show, like a daily show, which was just something that afforded us for all of my sisters, they could all like quit their day jobs. I had already quit my day job to get it started, but they still had their day jobs and the weekend radio show. And so then we all made that move and that was really fun. And so we did that for ABC for five years. So you're basically hanging out with your four sisters, five sisters, four sisters, right?

Yeah, my four sisters. Yeah. So all five of us. How much fun? I'm just thinking how much fun must that be? Oh, it's super fun. It was as much fun as I had dreamed that it would be. You know, there are parts of it that are hard. You're now, your colleagues are your sisters. That's all. It's interesting now that I do. I hate my boss as a workplace advice show. So many of the questions we get are about like if you're working in a family business or, you know, working with siblings or parents or something, even if you don't own that business. And so I learned a lot of lessons doing that. And again, I think we felt like we were confident that we could do that because we had seen that our father was always in a family business. And, you know, some people can make that work and some people can't. But we had a great role model that way. So then the pendulum swung back again. And that's when I went back into the corporate

world and became chief marketing officer for National Geographic Channels. So I did find my way back when I was ready. See, it all worked out fine. Right, which, you know, like, in hindsight, you're like, yes, of course, it all worked out fine. But again, it's this inner knowing. I'm joking when I say that. I know, I know. But it is this really deep inner knowing that I'm good, I'm smart, this will follow me wherever I want to go, I'll land on my feet, that so many people question, and so many people lead with just like this fierce sense of perpetual self-doubt rather than a fierce sense of perpetual expectation that I'm going to be fine. Yeah. But you know what? I had made other decisions in my life that supported that freedom. So part

of the reason I was free to make these big changes is, you know, I was not married. I did not have children. I did not have a giant mortgage. I didn't have kids I was going to have to put through college. Like so I had made life choices that supported a certain level of financial freedom or whatever you want to call it. Like I didn't I would I could go do that. And a lot of other people, you're not quite as I understand why people that have kids to put through college don't necessarily want to go in and resign from their big fancy corporate job. I totally get that. I'm clear that I probably wouldn't have the bravery to do that if I had all of these other things on the expense side of the ledger. I did not have those things. But you know what's really interesting to me?

I'm so curious whether you sort of experience this too, especially with sort of like your current gig, which we'll get to, you know, in short order, is that so many people also set up their lives so that they have the ability to make all the choices that you're talking about making, and they still don't make them. They still make the choices as if they're locked into some paradigm that doesn't allow them that freedom. I think like my experience, or at least my guess, is that it's probably more people that operate that way, even if they have the ability to do so much more. I mean, I'm certainly guilty of that to a certain extent myself. We've built my living in a way that allows me a certain amount of freedom. And it's taken a really long time to actually take advantage of that.

I mean, as we're recording this right now, I'm sitting in like a small bungalow a block and a half from the beach in Encinitas, Southern California. And I'm still- That is so great, Jonathan. And it's awesome. That's so great. And I'm working. But we realize at a certain point, we're like, wait, we've actually built this business in a way that allows us to do this. So why are we not doing it?

And I feel like that happens a lot. In all the conversations that you have, Has that come up as like a theme? Yes. I can remember even when I was stewing about whether or not to leave Nike, one of my closest friends said to me, well, if you can't do it, who can? And that was a real moment of revelation. Like, oh, yeah. Like, what is holding me back? Except I think people naturally have a tendency when you have a high profile professional job and you're perceived in a certain way, like out in the world, you don't want to take that away from yourself.

There's a certain comfort that comes from, yeah, right. They sort of, I'm Nike's Liz Dolan. Yeah. You know, some of that is very comforting. But you realize, like, no, you didn't used to be and you don't have to be. And so I did feel a confidence to go do that. But I've had that conversation with lots of my friends as they've made choices about moving from a conventional job to an unconventional job or moving halfway around the world with their

kids just because they decide, like, OK, we need to shake this whole operation. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton.

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15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. I think people have more choice than they think they have, but they don't necessarily embrace it. What do you think is underneath that, though? Well, I think it's very difficult to just shake things up so much that you feel like you're starting from scratch again, like you're abandoning all this stuff that you worked on to build up. Or it's that they're going to close the door behind me thing more than anything else.

If I leave this job, they're going to lock that door and I will never get another conventional job. And I understand why people feel that way. Because then when you go do that, I remember like six months after I left my Nike job being at a board meeting for a nonprofit organization I was on the board of. And one of the big fancy corporate guys there who was also on the board said to me, well, you know, you really only have a year to do this. And then if you don't have another real job within a year of leaving Nike, you're never going to get back in. And like, I tossed and turned that night, Jonathan. I definitely was like, oh my God, what if he's right? But he was wrong. Yeah. So from there, you, I mean, you had this really strong taste of radio and then moving into different sort of like backgrounds, you go back

into the corporate world and you're doing this mainstream gig. But again, there's this pattern, right? And radio, which now has evolved into the world of, well, Satellite Sisters keeps on in the background. So you've got this now as your side hustle and loving it. You're building all this experience doing it. But then very recently, you get fascinated with the world of podcasting. Yes, it's been so great. So about a year ago, my former boss, who runs the podcast network Wondery now, actually came to me and asked if I would host a show called I Hate My Boss, because he knew I had the radio background. And he had also seen me, you know, as a leader in the working world and thought I would be really good and insightful about giving advice. And I remember even saying to him at the point, like, oh, I hate giving advice. I don't want to give people advice. And he said, are you

kidding? Didn't you notice that everyone at work always came to you for advice? He said, I used to get kind of insulted because I was the CEO, but instead they would go to the CMO for career advice. So that's how we started this new show, I Hate My Boss, which we were very lucky to have you as a guest on, which was a very fun conversation. Thank you for doing that, Jonathan. It was my pleasure. And my co-host here is an executive coach named Larry Seale, who runs his own executive coaching business. So he is super experienced with the how to actually give advice. And I provide experience, color commentary, that kind of thing. So it's really interesting. So there are these seasons that you seem to sort of oscillate

between. It's sort of like you lean into big enterprise, and then you pull back to passion-driven conversation, and you lean into enterprise and pull back to passion-driven conversation. You're fully embracing the world of radio, but now it's in the form of podcasts. I'm really curious because you have this really long, I'm much newer to this entire world than you are. So I'm curious, how do you feel the experience of developing and hosting and producing a podcast is different than your experience in radio? That's a really great question because they are, though they take similar skills, they are very different experiences. And what I love about podcasting is that it is so personal. When people hear you in their earbuds and they have selected to go listen to you because there's something about what you do or what your show is called or the insight that you've provided that they're like taking their valuable time and choosing

to listen to you. It's a very, I'm sure you must feel this way with your show. It's very personal what you are providing and what people are getting from you, right? Yeah, totally. And what's interesting is we were filming video for two years before we migrated to podcasting and it is so much more personal and so much more intimate, even though on the face of it, the conversations, you know, are similar people, similar topics, but it's just a very different medium. And I love it. I really enjoy it. I'm curious. I want to ask you one more question about your show because I've been on it and it's really fun. And then I'm going to come full circle with you. Because the focus of your show so much is people who are going through struggles and big questions and moments in the context of their careers. Is there like one major topic or question that tends to come up constantly. So much of it comes down to how do I communicate better about what's important to me? Or if you're the boss, well, same thing, what's important to me? So much of it is just one-on-one communication, just like being in a family or having a bunch of friends. It's

how can I be understood? And the flip side of that, how can I be listened to? So really a lot of it comes down to making sure that people understand why I'm here, what I'm trying to do, and if I have an issue, how do I get that fixed? It's just, it's like any other personal relationship in your life. It's communication skills so much. I always say work is easy. It's people that are hard. So the actual tasks we're doing, not that hard. But getting along with the people, that can be very challenging.

So that's what Larry and I really try to focus on, the positive people relationships in the workplace that can make your work much more satisfying. Yeah, no, I love that. I know when we were jamming when I was on the show, I love that you guys were so focused on sort of like the deeper dynamics. Yeah. So let's come full circle because it kind of feels like a good place. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer the phrase out to you to live a good life, what comes up? What comes up? Well, for me, number one, the first word that popped into my mind was choose. That so much about living a good life is choosing to pursue the things that are

important to you or making the choices that will allow you to actually have the life that you want. What we were just talking about, like sometimes you just surround yourself with things that kind of box you in. And so you don't really exercise the freedom you have. So choosing would be number one. And then another thing that, you know, I say all the time is not every conversation will change your life, but any conversation can. So a sort of openness to people and to listening to people and what they could be teaching you, you'd be surprised when you go back through your life and think of the totally random conversations that have stuck with you and actually taught you something unexpected.

So that's what I would say. I love that. Thank you so much. My pleasure. This has really been fun, Jonathan. Thank you. So as we wrap up today, I've got a special request. Good Life Project is growing and we're looking at how to best serve you with new programming and partnerships. You've heard a bit of that on the programming side and also on friendly new sponsors as well. I would so appreciate if you could take just two minutes to fill out a quick survey. Our friends at Wondery are helping us with this process. Just go to wondery.com to share more about who you are and what you dig. That's wondery.com

slash survey. I want to give a final shout out to our awesome sponsors and supporters. Right now, you can post a job on ZipRecruiter for free. That's right, for free. Just go to ziprecruiter.com slash good. Be sure to check out Blue Apron and get your first three meals free with free shipping by going to blueapron.com slash good life. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If the stories and ideas in any way moved you, I would so appreciate if you would take just a few extra seconds for two quick things. One, if it's touched you in some way, if there's some idea or moment in the story

or in the conversation that you really feel like you would share with somebody else, that it would make a difference in somebody else's lives, take a moment and whatever app you're using, just share this episode with somebody who you think it'll make a difference in somebody else's lives. Take a moment and whatever app you're using, just share this episode with somebody who you think it'll make a difference for. Email it if that's the easiest thing, whatever is easiest for you. And then of course, if you're compelled, subscribe so that you can stay a part of this continuing experience. My greatest hope with this podcast is not just to produce moments and share stories and ideas that impact one person

listening, but to let it create a conversation, to let it serve as a catalyst for the elevation of all of us together collectively, because that's how we rise. When stories and ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change happens. And I would love to invite you to participate on that level. Thank you so much as always for your intention, for your attention, for your heart. And I wish you only the best. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era,

dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not, just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.