Good Life Project - Love, Heartbreak & Healing, an Artist’s Journey | Timothy Goodman

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

What if you didn’t have to keep everything bottled up? Or show up a certain way? Or deny what you’re going through or feeling? What if you could just sit with it, feel it fully, then find a way to not only release it, but turn those feelings, thoughts, and emotions into something that went out into the world and moved people to feel and connect and love and laugh, too?This is the work, the world, and life of New York City designer, illustrator, muralist, and author, Timothy Goodman. Surviving early life trauma, losing himself to drugs, getting arrested, and barely graduating high school, a chance encounter with a boss who’d become a mentor rekindled a passion for art and expression that had been seeded by the example of his grandma decades earlier. He was smitten with design, storytelling, and art and poured himself into it, eventually finding his way to New York City, studying at SVA, and knowing in his bones, this would be his home for life. Over the years, he’s built a stunning career. His new book, I Always Think It's Forever: A Love Story Set in Paris as Told by an Unreliable but Earnest Narrator, takes us into his exploration of love, blending poignant stories, insights and awakenings with vibrant joyful illustrations. And his body of work openly explores Timothy’s own mental health challenges and concern about the state of the world, sometimes centering both in his work. You can find Timothy at: Website | Instagram | TwitterIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Jason Naylor about the sweet spot between art, commerce and impact.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED: We’re looking for special guest “wisdom-seekers” to share the moment you’re in, then pose questions to Jonathan and the Sparked Braintrust to be answered, “on air.” To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount CodesPeloton: Access high-energy workouts, instantly. Discover Peloton: streaming fitness classes to you live and on-demand. New Members who choose monthly billing get a 30-day free trial, or choose annual billing and get 12 months of Membership for the price of 10. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Why am I falling into the same patterns that I've constantly fallen into in the way I deal with a breakup, in the way I gaslight my brain, in the way I have these attachment issues? And then going deeper about the traumas I've experienced in my life. It was difficult to get into that. You know, of course, it was hard. And I'm still, I think, in a way, paying for it in some aspect. But what you get in return, I think, is a sense of liberation that is important for me. And I hope that, you know, more men, more straight men can talk about therapy and talk about crying and talk about healing. I hope more men understand that this

stuff is not binary, that you can hold on to your masculinity and still be vulnerable and cry and ask for help. These things can coexist and it doesn't take anything away from you. So what if you didn't have to keep everything bottled up or show up a certain way or deny what you're going through or feeling? I mean, what if you could just sit with it, feel it fully, and then find a way to not only release it, but turn those feelings, those thoughts, those emotions into something that went out into the world and moved people to feel and connect, to love and laugh too. This is the vision, the mission, the work, the world,

and life of New York City designer, illustrator, muralist, and author Timothy Goodman. Surviving early life trauma, losing himself to drugs, getting arrested, barely graduating high school, soon after a chance encounter with a boss who would eventually become a mentor and rekindle a passion for art and expression that had been seeded by the example of his grandma decades earlier. He was smitten. He was all in with design and storytelling and art and poured himself into it, eventually finding his way to New York City and studying at the School of Visual Arts and also knowing his bones that that city would be his home for life. Over the years, Timothy has

built a stunning career. His art and words have populated walls and buildings, packaging, food, shoes, clothing, books, magazine covers, galleries all over the world, collaborating with brands like Nike, Apple, Google, MoMA, Netflix, Tiffany, Uniqlo, Target, so many others. He's the author of a number of books, one of which was optioned to Netflix. His first solo gallery exhibition, I'm Too Young to Not Set My Life on Fire, was on view in Manhattan 2021. And his new book, I Always Think It's Forever, takes us into his exploration of love, blending poignant stories, insights, and awakenings with vibrant and joyful illustration. And his body of work, including this book, often explores in a very open and vulnerable way Timothy's own challenges

with mental health and his deep heartfelt concern about the state of the world. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. by the way. I absolutely loved it. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, no, my pleasure. How is New York these days, by the way? I actually haven't been back in like over a year. I was just realizing. How does it feel to you? Do you feel like it's back-ish? It's hard to say it's back-ish because it's just a different version now, you know? It's certainly alive. It's not dead, as the critics said, which really pissed me off during the pandemic you know like it's just being here for 18 19 years always feeling like this was home always feeling like I'm gonna you know live out my days and die here you know someone who works with a lot of different like communities and schools here and you know I really feel connected to the city in a different way. Like it really rubbed me the wrong way.

The kind of conversation about, you know, New York during the pandemic or that it's so crime ridden now or like, you know, all these things. And it's like there's people here that don't have the luxury or the privilege to just move to Austin or L.A. because the pandemic happened because they want more space, you know? And that's not to slight anyone who did, but this city is more than just a resource to consume, you know, just because you can't do your fancy events anymore or whatever. There is hardworking, dedicated, incredible people here with a wonderful spirit that you can never find anywhere.

Everyone's funny in New York, you know? Like the FedEx guy is funny. Like everybody is funny. Like it's a special, special place. And you have to keep that in mind. You know, I hope if anything, the pandemic helps people think about the relationship to spaces and environments and cities more. It certainly did for me. So it's a lot just different, you know? Yeah, I think it's so true. Also, I mean. I mean, we were part of the people that bugged out and we still have like plenty of family there. And it's very different anywhere you go. There's something about the energy of New York that sort of like gets under your skin. I've been through a lot in New York City. Like I was there in 9-11. You know, even the feeling in the early pandemic in New

York City where like, what, 7 million windows like open at 7 o'clock every night, banging pots and pans and moving. I have recordings of that and I cannot listen to them without just bursting into tears. It's just, I'm back there in that moment every time I hear it. It was difficult, you know, it was very difficult. It definitely took a toll on the city in a lot of different ways. You know, and now considering how, you know considering how much more costly everything is becoming, it's really sad to see. It's a difficult conversation I don't have solutions for, but. Yeah. I'm curious though. I mean, you living in New York City, having a deep love affair with it, being an artist who very much expresses what you feel, what you were showing up

to do during the last few years, like what was in your heart in terms of like, this is who I need to be and what I need to do. And this is, this is my role as an artist, like in this moment in time, in this place in time. You can only start from where you're at, no matter what, you know? And that's what I would tell anybody, wherever you are, that's where you can start. You know, like how do you have difficult conversations with people? Well, you just, you do, you start that, you know, how do you express yourself? Well, you

draw something and post it on Instagram as a starter, then you can kind of keep going from there. You know, I feel like I'm an expressionist in that truest way, like no matter what medium, I have to get it out, whether I'm writing a poem, whether I'm drawing on a wall, whether I'm like just making a, whether I'm like just making a video where I'm talking directly to the camera, like when it's an animation telling a story, I have to just get it out, whether it's a social experiment. You know, I'm interested in exploring, like I'm not a scientist, a nice psychologist, like I'm not a researcher. I'm just a fucking dude who is an artist who's trying to make shit and put it out in the world and connect to humans you know and that's what gives me the biggest joy and the and the most fulfilling meaning behind

what i'm doing and i think if you can kind of like live in that space you'll sort of be okay i think and that kind of like that idea of just like constantly becoming i think if you can kind of like stay in that flux i don't't know. I mean, you know, making work is always a scary process. You know, anything you're doing, this podcast, voicing your opinion, you know, anytime you make something and you put it in the world, you're in the business of consequence in so many ways. And some of the times those consequences can have dire effects. Sometimes they have small effects. They play into a lot of things. And I think if you can kind of just think about where you live in the totality of all of it, you know, as an artist, that's all I can ask for.

What is bringing up as you're describing it also was New York City in particular has a history of artists expressing themselves publicly, often like on buildings, on walls. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, going back to the 80s with Keith Haring and Basquiat and even before that in the 70s with like the graffiti artists, you know, who were basically like sending messages

to each other from Bronx down, like, you know, on the sides of trains to Brooklyn, like, you know, Chris Ellis and Days and those guys. But it's an interesting city to sort of like be an artist where so much gets expressed in a really public way. And I guess you kind of say these days that tends to happen on social anyway. But I feel it's different when you're like when you're doing it physically, tangibly in a place like New York. It's so much different, you know, and Keith, you know, Keith Haring obviously is a massive inspiration for me.

And I have an interesting trajectory because I kind of started. Obviously, I went to school, SVA I kind of started, obviously I went to school, SVA, like Keith Carey, but I went to school for graphic design. I started out, you know, as a book jacket designer, and then I worked in branding and at Apple my first like four or five years. And then, you know, early on when I started working for myself, which is over 10 years ago at this point, I was still like doing a lot of commercial work. I mean, I was mainly doing commercial work, but as I've gotten, you know, my trajectory of, I still do commercial work, obviously I'm a commercial artist, but I've gone like a lot of people started on the streets and

then they go commercial. I kind of gone the opposite way where it's become vital for me to get my art on the streets, specifically New York City, because I think that it's a really special feeling to leave a piece of art for a community. You know, like I just did this 5,500 square foot basketball court for the students at PS 315 in Brooklyn, you know. Yeah, I saw that. It's incredible. Doing something like that, that's where art becomes no longer about, it's not my art anymore. You know, it's those students, it's those kids' arts, that community's art. They have a sense of pride and ownership over it. They don't know who did it.

You know, I mean, maybe some of them. But most of anybody who's on that court doesn't know who the fuck did that court. They get to tell people, I have the dopest basketball court you've ever seen. You know what I mean? And it's the same when I do these shirts for Uniqlo. Or the Nike shoe I just did with Kevin Durant. It's like, most people aren't going to know that. It's like me, okay, KD15, Tim with a good, but whoever the hell that is.

But it's a values-driven shoe. They have a piece of Brooklyn on their feet. So, you know, when we go back to Keith Haring, he said something like, I assumed after all, like the point of all this, right? The point of making art was to communicate and to contribute to culture and I couldn't say it better I think that's exactly what it's about you know being in New York being a New York artist it starts here culture and it starts on the streets in a lot of ways I'm not a graffiti artist know, in that kind of like truest definition.

But whether I'm doing shit illegally, which comes with a lot of privilege, obviously, or I'm doing it for a brand, it's very important for me to get my words on the street, my work, especially if I'm doing it illegally. What am I saying? How am I contributing to a street, to a community? You know, is it something that I feel like brings value to that street? Whether I'm calling out some sort of injustice, whether I'm just making, trying to make something that people, you know, want to take a picture of and, you know, or feels

like, you know, so many times I'm doing this stuff, especially early in the morning, some of, you know, like people come up to me and they just say, thank you. You know, like this old lady gave me $20. She probably thought, you know, that happens a lot. People try to give me money. They just say, thank you so much. This is so beautiful. I'm so happy that this has been such an ugly bear spot on our street for so long. And thank you for bringing this piece of art on our street, you know, and like, you can't get that on Instagram, you know, those kinds of conversations. Yeah. I mean, it definitely, it's like a piece that provokes a conversation when you, as the artist get to have that conversation, sometimes even in the process of you actually making the art, I mean, it's gotta be super powerful. And,

and like you were just referencing also, you know, some of what you do is just really cool and fun and poppy and cool, but some of what you do also has a very strong point of view on issues of the day, issues that you personally care really deeply about. And I feel like there's this really interesting conversation that's going on in the world of art and commerce now and sort of like, what is the role of the artist in the context of actually moving culture forward or provoking or actually like taking these really strong points of view? And you've clearly landed on the side of no, like that is actually my job. Like there are things that I believe deeply in my bones and they're going to come out

in every way, shape or form when I make my work. It's hard. I would never get on my soapbox and yell that all artists should feel like it's their responsibility to talk about world affairs or the injustices or their privileges you know but for me all great art only does that and all the art that I whether it's you know movies music books so on and so forth all the stuff that I'm really attracted to in those ways is about that. Or it's about people, you know, like opening up their heart and their soul and wearing their heart on their sleeve and talking about, you know, all the difficult things about what it means to be human

and the rawness of that. That's why I always say like all art is political because even if you don't know it, it is, you know, you have to think about all of this in the context of your identity, what you're saying, how someone might receive something. You know, I always talk about how I feel as an artist, I have a responsibility to not offend someone. And what I mean by that is not, obviously, I'm not scared to be quote, unquote, controversial, you know, like offending your grandmother or something. I'm talking about, you know, how I might offend someone who's marginalized, what I might be saying that's, you know, insensitive to people who don't have privileges like me, because I always have to start with the fact that I'm a white man in this world, you know? And so, so you have to just think about the context of that. And it's not to say that you're right or wrong or that you're scot-free because I'm acknowledging, of course I'm not, you know, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism in so many ways, but how are you challenging yourself? How are you looking in the mirror

with things? How are you saying no to some things and saying yes to other things? I think just having these conversations is a key start to it all, you know? And I see too many artists, especially on Instagram, not talking about this stuff, not trying to learn more about this stuff, not trying to find the language to talk about these things. For me, that's a shame in a lot of ways, because I think, you know, true artists have really good intentions and want to do better and want to like, you know, reflect these things back out. But so many just, they're not kind of like looking in the mirror about it. So I don't know. For me, it's a responsibility. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because when I feel art that has a really strong point of view, especially about an issue that may

be like an issue of the day or that's politicized, there's something in me that sort of like intuitively makes a distinction between art that takes a point of view like that, but then pushes you away and basically says, the conversation is closed. This is my point of view, believe it or not. And then there's other art where I feel like, and I feel like this is more of what you do. You're kind of saying like, this is what I believe. I believe it deeply in it and it matters to me. But then there's something about it. That's an asking people into the conversation. Like you're inviting people in and say like,

let's engage around this, you know? And if not with me personally, as the artist, like let this be a seed that like begins a conversation, maybe with your partner, you're like your family, your,

your friends, whoever it may be. And that's a really hard thing to do. I think so. I don't know. For me, it's, I just think if you can do your homework, which isn't hard, none of this enough is hard, you know, in a lot of ways to me, then you're, you're okay. Like, and I'm not saying everyone needs to get out there and shout about every kind of thing happening in the world. Listen, I'm not an activist, you know, like in that sense. Like I need to be informed enough in order to feel comfortable talking about something as an artist. But I do feel a responsibility with someone who does have an audience, who does have a skill to talk about things and to learn more about things and to unlearn.

And yeah, I don't know. You know, I was just watching this kind of random, but I was watching the color of money as March for Saisy film from the 1980s with, with Paul Newman and Tom, Tom Cruise.

And there's this moment where Paul Newman's on the phone. It's kind of towards the end of the movie. He's in a hotel room in Atlantic city and he's killing it. Like he's he's in between pool matches. Yeah. And I think he's almost at the championship game. He's been killing it. He's been just and he's on the phone with his girlfriend who's back. I don't know where she's in Chicago or New York. And he's kind of like, I got no grief down here. Like, come down here and give me some grief. And I feel like that all the time. I need grief. You know, my therapist, we talk about this idea of like chaos versus support. And like, I like being in the middle of that a little bit, you know, somehow it makes me feel really alive. And so often I don't, none of us do. And I'm constantly trying to like, look for the thing that puts a little like stick in the bicycle wheel as it's going, you know, and like, remind me, like, you know, put that little pebble in your shoe.

Give me some grief. Remind me like of it all, like a new little struggle. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I think so many of us, we're looking for the edge where we feel alive. We feel like engaged enough where it's almost like whatever it is that we're doing or exploring or whoever we're with, we have to be activated and engaged, but also we don't want to tip over the edge. As you were describing that, I was thinking about years ago, I was mountain biking out in Moab utah and we're riding like along this thin sliver along the edge of these massive mesas and it was completely comfortable like you weren't going to wipe out or anything like that but you knew if you did you were going to fall a really really really long way and there was something on the one hand that was terrifying about it but you were still pretty contained and safe. But it was that feeling of just what you were doing demanded you to be so hyper present

in the moment. I think that the feeling of doing something that requires you to be so present that you can't help but feeling just utterly alive. I feel like so many of us really yearn for that in so many aspects of life. Yeah, for sure. You know, I'm looking for that. And yeah, like you said, so many aspects of life. Yeah, for sure. You know, I'm looking for that. And yeah, like you said, so many aspects of my life and in my work. Yeah. Fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him.

We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So as we have this conversation, you're hanging out in New York City, as you mentioned, you've been there coming up on 20 years now, building your voice, your art, your career. She didn't start out this way. You came up in Cleveland, had a fairly tough upbringing, but also know that even when you were young, even though it seems like art didn't touch down until a little bit

later for you, your grandma was an artist, a painter. And as I've heard you describe, it wasn't also just the painting. It was almost like she had an artistic way about her. And it sounds like that really, you noticed that it made a difference for you. Oh, yeah. You taught her research. Yeah, my grandmother, she worked with pastels a lot. And she was a potter. She would make these incredible pots and she did all, she was just all around, but everything in her life, like she would make homemade jam and jellies and she would have these labels

printed, you know, she would kind of put her hand, write the ingredients and she would always sign all of them. And she had this beautiful penmanship and she would travel and she would create these journals with all her beautiful penmanship about the trip and there would be drawings in there you know she was part of like committees with the museum in Cleveland and everything centered around her artfulness and I think you know I was into that. And then in my teenage years, I kind of rebelled against it. And I was like, no, I just, I want to play basketball and get into trouble and do drugs. And, and I think that it kind of hit me again, as I graduated high

school, I barely graduated, couldn't get in any college, didn't want to get into any college. I had a 1.7 GPA and I had to like really start confronting my life as I was like working. I was painting homes for several years in my late teens and early twenties, hanging wallpaper. I was working for this guy, Dave, who was like my life mentor. And I really had to come to terms with what the hell I was doing, you know, waking up hungover every day, doing different drugs every weekend, not serious about anything, completely in debt, lost my license, going to jail for stupid things. And I started taking community college classes, shout out Tri-C, the community college in Cleveland, when I was like 20, 21. Because I thought maybe

we were working all these really, really incredible, beautiful homes in Cleveland. Dave had this really high end, you know, home improvement company. And I thought maybe I wanted to like go for interior design or something, you know, and then I had to take, well, first of all, I had to take all kinds of stuff. I had to take like OA English classes. Like I literally did know the difference between the yours and the theirs and nouns and pronouns. Like it was that bad. Like an associate's degree in interior design, like I had to take drawing classes. So I was taking these life drawing classes and sculpture classes and I got really into it like so much. And I was like feeling kind of sad about the notion that I had to like this was just like these prereqs for like interior design and I was like I don't but that just seems safe you know but I had really

incredible teachers at Tri-C who encouraged me and saw you know they saw potential they said well you're really kind of expressive with this and you really seem into it. Like, why are you going into interior design, you know? So then I thought, okay, I'm going to keep doing this and, you know, maybe I'll go into graphic design. So it's kind of how that started, you know? So I took a couple of years, 2D design classes and taking all these prereqs so I could kind of, you know, figure out coming to major metropolitan. I figured if I was going to do this, I had no money. I read this book, How to Go to College for Almost Free. I applied to over 100 scholarships over the course of two years.

I won 10 of them. Scholarships for everything. Tall people scholarships. You name it, you can find it. It teaches you how to find scholarships in your local communities, through banks, through, you know, independent people in businesses. Also, like it teaches you how to write about yourself. Like I really learned how to like, you know, if you're applying to scholarships with hundreds, if not thousands of other people, like how are you telling your story? And how are you getting that across in a proficient and succinct way?

So it was like, I just became obsessed. And I dropped all my friends, all the friends that were no good for me. I stopped doing all the drugs I was doing. I stopped everything. It really became a complete 180 over the course of, you know, a gradual change over the course of a year or two. You know, I figured if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to, whether I succeed or fail, I'm going to, I need to do it big. And, you know, and I want to do it in a place like New York

or LA at the time I was looking at kind of different schools. And the moment I came here, I never came here until I was like 22. I visited for a weekend, slept on this guy's floor. I was sold. That was it. Saw a cockroach run across when I was, I was like, this is it. The first of a whole lot of cockroaches in New York City. I want to talk about Dave for a second though, because you mentioned, you know, like you spent about four years or so working with this one person, starting out painting houses and then learning different aspects of contracting and stuff like that. I'm so curious about, I love the concept of sliding doors and often that shows up in the form of mentors or

guides who just drop into your path. And you think it's just for some really basic reason, you know, like you needed a job, you're kicking around, like somehow this guy gives you a job, you're painting houses. And that thing that starts as something, which is just fairly mundane to serve a basic sustenance need, like it turns into something that's really transformational. And maybe the person who's involved in it becomes somebody who's transformational. And it sounds like that person and that experience for you, what's that? Very much so. So Bob Dylan is my favorite artist of all time.

He said something like, doors, they can shut you in or they can shut you out. And in some ways, there's no difference. And I always think about that. It's like, it's exactly right for me. The moment you think you're shutting a door to something for something else, then it just constantly just keeps going. And it's important to recognize that because in so many ways, it just becomes insatiable, all of this. And it's like, well well how are you trying to feed your soul anyways i'm going off tangent i think i owe dave a call actually we're still in contact we're not as close as we were for various reasons but you know for someone like me who grew up

you know single parent household kind of always uncomfortable with the idea of like I didn't know my father I didn't know you know what happened I had this stepfather who wasn't good to me I had another stepfather you know it was broken home shit you know and you you witness adults who are not in love we're not showing love love or affection. And in so many ways, you learn that. And you, you know, especially as a man and the way you, you know, kind of in our communities and in society, you start to think, well, this is how I, you know, showing love or whatever is for sissies. And you choose apathy and you choose aggression over, you know, empathy, over, you know, vulnerability.

And you learn these postures and these attitudes early. And that was me, you know, and you latch on to icons in media, you know, people who, whether they're misogynistic people and all these things. So I was in so many ways, my story is just kind of like early on starting to search for these characters, these men, you know, and they become mentors and they're flawed individuals. And Dave, by all means, is a very flawed individual as I am and so many of us, but I latched onto him. A real kinship with him. Should have fired me a hundred times over. And he didn't. You know, I was a total screw up at that time. And I was trying to learn a skill and he taught me.

I didn't even know how to hold a screwdriver. And by the end of it, I was really good at my job. And I wanted to keep going from there. You know, it was like I became addicted to trying to get to the next level you know only in therapy years later then you kind of connect the dots you're like oh I was doing this because it was all a reaction to like trying to prove this person wrong trying to prove this person wrong and it's like holy shit like any quote-unquote success I feel like I have now is built on this foundation of like you know revenge, but like trying to prove something to someone and

trying to prove something to myself. And it's like, what am I in this for now? You know, and that's a big question for me constantly, which is what, you know, this conversation is in support of my book. I always think it's forever, which was this, you know, moment of like going to Paris and being like, okay, who the fuck am I now? What do I want out of this all? Do you ever wonder what would have happened if you were like, you're out there at that, you know, like whatever age it was, 18, 19, 20, and you chose a different job? Like how life would be different? Yeah.

I think about that all the time because it's so funny because like becoming a muralist, all of this connects the dots to them because i learned the skill of painting a hanging wallpaper so suddenly like i understand an environment the spatial qualities of a wall in a different way i don't feel a fear of going up on a wall and drawing on it the same way maybe you know of course when i did my first mural it was it was terrifying but there was just the environmental aspect of understanding measurements and I had all that you know I was already ingrained in me from the years of doing this so it's just wild to think like yeah I had it but you know if it wasn't that it would have been at that moment I felt like it was the only thing I could do, whether it was painting houses or,

you know, maybe I had gone into like carpentry or, you know, that was probably way too skilled for me at the time. But, you know, it was like a trade or maybe, you know, I could have worked at Walgreens or something. And, you know, I don't know who knows what would happen. Yeah. I mean, it seems like it was a it was a gateway for you. Like, you know, it reconnected you with something that maybe you had started to feel early on in life, like the, the maker in you, the artist in you, and you were able to see like, there's actually value in this. And this is the way I'm expressing it now. There's like a very commercial like channel for this, but there's something in your mind, which is like, oh, like I don't actually have to stifle this. I don't know in your mind, which is like, oh, like,

I don't actually have to stifle this. I don't know what this is going to look like or how it's going to come out of me, but there's value in this. And it's, and it sounds like the other thing is it was making you feel a certain way that you hadn't felt in a really long time. And it sounds like that lit something in you. When I got good at it, we would work long hours and I would go back with him and work on his house. He was renovating his house and he was teaching me all these things when I got really good. And I was like, you know, really efficient at, there was no greater feeling for me and working all day, 16, 17 hours, you know, I'm 21, 22, like feeling like, Oh,

I can do something now for the first time in my life. You know, I felt a sense of like, at the end of the day, I felt a sense of accomplishment, you know, and I'm adding value to, you know, we're working on someone's home, we're working, you know, and what that means. And like, I felt honor in that in so many ways. And now I have that same feeling when I'm doing a giant mural and I'm working 16 hours a day or whatever. Like I feel tired physically, emotionally, but I feel so stimulated in the same way that I did working with Dave when, you know, 18, 19, 20 years ago, 21 years ago. Like it still connects the dots for me. And I feel really blessed.

You know, I don't take it for granted at all. You know, I don't take it for granted at all. You know, I don't take any of this shit for granted. Like being a graphic designer, being an artist, being a writer. Like I was hauling buckets of wallpaper glue upstairs for 60 hours a day, you know, and I'm making $8, $9 an hour. Like I'm good. I don't take one day for granted right now like i'm not always knocking all the way always feeling like it which is you know i think having that

perspective is key for me and which i think comes out in so many other ways about why i want to you know use my platform to do things or why i want to align myself with certain people or why i want to talk about the things that are hard to talk about. So, yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. I remember years ago reading a book called shop class as soul craft. And it was this guy who smart guy, he went to like MIT or something like that. He's working in a think tank doing all this knowledge work and just feeling really empty and moves up to New Hampshire. And he finds this like grizzled old motorcycle mechanic who's working on these really old bikes that nobody else can like work on. And somebody comes in and like, he listens for three seconds and knows exactly

what's wrong. And he just starts mentoring under him. And he becomes, you know, like a vintage motorcycle mechanic. And the whole thing, like his whole point of view is like society has come to a point where we kind of say, well, you work with your hands only if you're not capable of working with your mind. And we devalue so much of the stuff that comes out in trades and so much of the stuff that, you know, and he's like, there's so much soul work. There's so much like you drop into a place of flow. There's so much amazingness in the work that so often we say, well, this is only the work that you do if you can't do these other things. Yeah, exactly. And he's like really inviting people to reclaim that work and see the grace in it and the value

in it and how it makes you feel just as a human being. That's a lot of what you're describing. Do you have people working on your own and you're not offering them water or something to eat or drink like you have major issues you need about therapy i painted houses also when i was like at that similar age so like i totally get it yeah this is funny actually i just thought about this um this woman who i went to high school with so my high school was it was interesting because there was like it was very broad neighborhood and it was a very broad neighborhood, and it was a big spectrum of economic backgrounds who went to this school.

I was on the very low end of that spectrum. She was much higher level. So I think it was like two or three years after I graduated high school, we were painting our house randomly. It her dave's it was one of his clients her mom and she got me kicked off i couldn't go back and work because i spilled paint on it wasn't even a lot like i spilled some paint like on her bushes or something you know and she was really rude to me about it all like and she she didn't want me back on the property. She wrote me on Facebook recently, just singing my praises about how far I've come.

And she's so proud of me. She didn't bring up any, you know, I didn't want you on my property. But it was pretty wild. I didn't respond to her. Not in any, like, spite. I just, I don't know. I just didn't feel like. Yeah. It brings up a really interesting topic. And you write about this in your book,

and I've heard you write about it and talk about it before, which is sort of like, for a solid chunk of your adult life, one of the things that was really driving you to, quote, succeed, part of it was your own expression, your voice, and the things that you believe in. But part of it was, it sounds like for a long time, there was something inside of you that was like, I need to actually succeed because I need to show all those people. From way back in the day, I am someone and I'm capable and I'm like a good human being. And I'm like, I can actually go and do this and do big things in the world. Which on the one hand is interesting because it gets you to a certain point.

But then on the other hand, at some point you have to like, you have to find a way to tap into something bigger and different than that. Well, that's what I was saying. You know, like years later in therapy, I realized that connect all the dots and I, and I was like, what the fuck am I doing all this for that? If it's not for that and I'm ready to move on past that, well then now I have to find meaning for what I'm doing in a different way. I have to confront myself.

That's a hard thing to go through. You know, it was very hard for me in the face of, I was going through a lot of depression in 2018 for many different reasons. I was not in a good place. I was really getting existential about all of this. And I just wanted to find a reason, a bit. Yeah, not a reason, but I wanted to just find purpose, you know? And I felt like I had to reclaim myself in a lot of ways.

And so it was about questions, like, what do I want? And why am I doing this? And I still have those questions, you know? It's about prioritizing, obviously, you know, as part of that's about getting older. Part of that's about, you know, after a certain level of success in this industry, then, you know, you start to think, yeah, I mean, I think it's been just another step. And there's a lot of privilege that's built into all of that, of course, to be able to say, you know, I just, I didn't have the money when I was in college to go do a study abroad. Now I was in a much more economic, stable place

where I felt like, okay, let me take months off and go to Paris and do this for myself and learn French and do things for myself, grow my hair, whatever it is, you know, like big and small, have a birthday party you know something i didn't hadn't done in many many years and i don't know they say right fruit falls quickly you know i love that phrase yeah and uh so much of that the apple watch series 10 is here It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

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Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.

So let's talk about Paris. It's, you know, sort of like the centerpiece of your new book. Your reason for going and what unfolded there. It seems like things get complicated really fast. You show up in Paris. Like when you decide, I'm at a moment in my life, in my career, in my relationships, where from the outside, looking in, like a lot of people would just be like, wow, like blessed, privileged, successful, everything's going great. But there was a lot of darkness in you, like you described,

you're dealing with depression. And also it seems like really trying to understand, like, what do I want from love in my life? What do I want to give to love in my life? And as you described, as a kid, you had models that weren't the most functional. So when you get on a plane and you go to Paris, what are you actually looking for? You know, my friend always says, like, punching in your time clock. I'm ready. I'm here for work.

I'm here for duty. So much of all this shit is finally admitting to yourself what you want. Oh, I'm ready for love and all that that comes with, which includes the risk of heartbreak. And for someone like me who has attachment issues, who has abandonment, depression, abandonment issues, you know, who's like constantly kind of like dealing with that. You have, I have to accept that if I really want to go for this, I have to accept that part too and all that's going to come. And how do I show up for myself in those moments? So that's what it was about.

Couldn't get on that plane, showed up for duty. Like whatever happens, whatever is going to come out of this, I'm going to enjoy my life, enjoy myself and challenge myself. And so much of what I want to do constantly as an artist is to see and to be seen and same as a human, you know, and that's what that was about. Showing up for duty. Yeah. You introduced this word that I'd never heard of before, a French word, and I have no idea if I'm pronouncing it right, dépistement, which I was trying to wrap my head around what that really means. There's no literal translation to English, but generally it's about this idea of decontrification, where you're in this place of unknown and you're searching. But it's like a good hopeful thing. You're like, you're ready to encounter whatever's going to happen.

You're searching, you're lost, but you're happy to be lost. And you don't belong to anything or anybody. And you're not identifying with anything, but you're there. And you're wandering. And that's but you're there and you're wandering. And that's kind of the gist of it, as I have learned. And that was me, you know, that was me at that time. I'm still trying to, like, preserve moments of that constantly, you know. And so much of that is about sacredness.

You know, it's a big word for me these days. Like, what is sacred in the face of social media, in the face of everyone, in the face of my phone, always in the face of my work, in the face of my demands, as a person who's running their own business, as a person who's an artist, as a person who's a son and a boyfriend and a brother and all of these things, you know? Yeah. I mean, it feels like a lot of it also is about non-attachment, you know, or non-grasping. Like I'm not grasping at whole, like, I don't feel like I have to grasp and hold onto the past. I don't feel like I have to grasp onto some vision of how the future has to be. And even this moment, like as beautiful as it may be, if you're savoring it in the moment, it's like,

okay, I don't have to do everything that I humanly can to make it like solid and last as long as possible. Just like, just be in it. Which is such a brutally hard thing for so many of us. It's a big thing for me right now too, because of the post pandemic, as everything is expected to be back to normal. Like we didn't just go through this collective trauma together it's tough you know i don't feel great about it right now you know i feel like a loss like i'm warning like the time we all lost the people with us the things you know the the versions we've gone through we're different versions of ourselves now and we're just expected to be back out it's kind of just like wait what the fuck is going on we're all trying to do our best yeah i think it's it's such a fine line right between moving on and actually acknowledging the reality of of something really brutal that we've been through on a collective level you know on the one hand

you feel like you owe it to that experience and to those who've suffered or to those we've been through on a collective level. You know, on the one hand, you feel like you owe it to that experience and to those who have suffered or to those who've been lost to really, really acknowledge it and honor it and treasure and reflect on it. But on the other hand, you owe it to yourself as a human being to be present in life and enjoy all the goodness that's around you too and move forward, not away from it, but with it, but still move forward and like participate in the here and now. It is such a strange, I agree. It's a really strange moment if you're really trying to tap into all of it. It's such a strange moment. You know,

it was interesting writing this book over the last year and creating all the imagery from the book. It's a graphic memoir, you know? Yeah. Which by the way, we're talking a little bit about it, but if you're listening, you literally just have to get the book it's beautiful it's fun you have to like just flip through the pages i mean get the actual physical book too there's something like just awesome about it i put my heart and soul into this 192 pages of like what it means to kind of like be a human in so many ways and to go through the experience of joy and love and then the the cycles and stages of you know loss and grief and depression and disappointment and then coming back around to hope and doing it in a way that I can tell a story which is poetry and graphs and art charts and

all this kind of tell this comprehensive story of this year in my life it was special but it was difficult you know I cried I when I turned it in for the first time I like cried like I didn't even know what it was just like I had to like replenish like all this stuff like it was just so deep and it's hard for someone like me too because I do so much of like what I do with all this kind of stuff that's very the work I create that's personal it's hard for someone like me too, because I do so much of like what I do with all this kind of stuff. That's very, the work I create that's personal. It's all about the past. Yeah.

And so like to get back in that space, like takes, there's a cost, you know? Yeah. I was really wondering about that because you're processing, you know, the book really walks you through this story of your own personal waking, deepening, you know, your exploration. And also, you know, like there is a story of deep love infatuation and then loss and heartbreak, like that weaves through the whole thing. And you drop into every moment of that, like you're hyper present in it and you share, you know, writing lines like, you know, I was attracted to the sadness in her eyes because sadness is a part of life. And that shit made me feel so fucking alive so you can tell that as you're writing these words and as you're drawing and making the art around them like it feels like you would have had to physically bring yourself back to that place to really do this book justice

and i was wondering like how it is just for you emotionally to go back there in the name of making this thing so i kept a very thorough journal when i was in paris and thereafter the whole year uh i hadn't done that in a very long time so you know so much of that i was able to kind of capture in raw form and then i kind of like you know you can kind of like edit it from there and make it more presentable but it's hard especially the second part of the book, which is the breakup, where I'm really getting into why am I falling into the same patterns

that I've constantly fallen into and the way I deal with a breakup and the way I gaslight my brain and the way I have these attachment issues. And then going deeper about the traumas I've experienced in my life from abuse as a kid and, you know, and to seeing what get into it as honest as I could about it. And the way that that kind of was projected back out onto me, it just becomes a, you know, a vicious cycle.

So it was difficult to get into that, you know, of course it was hard. It really felt like, like I said, there's a cost to it. And I'm still, I think in a way, paying for it in some aspect. But what you get in return, I think, is a sense of liberation that is important for me. And for that, you know, I'm extremely thankful. And I hope, you know, it's just, I hope that, you know, more men, more straight men can talk about therapy and talk about crying and talk about healing. I hope more men understand that this stuff is not binary, that you can be, you can hold on to your masculinity and still be vulnerable and cry and, you know, ask for help. These things can coexist. Yeah.

And it doesn't take anything away from you, you know. I think you really bring that home. Like the last part of the book, it's about hope, which I love. Also, I remember a couple of years back, we had the children's book author, Kate DiCamillo on the show. Often tough books about like real like things that are like, can be painful and about loss and and a lot of it as she shared comes for her own personal struggle with family and loss

and i asked her about like writing that honestly for kids and she said like her belief is tell the truth but always leave them with hope and i thought that was just such a powerful i mean not just for writing a book but just for like yeah it was a powerful mantra, you know, like be honest, be in it, deal with it, but also acknowledge and be honest about, about the fact that like, you know, there's hope there's a sense of possibility. And if you're not feeling it now, then like maybe part of the work is like, well, if I assume that it is there at some point, like, how do I get to that place? Yeah. It's interesting also, because if you read the book, you know, and you read the story and you read about your journey and a lot of your grappling with a lot of stuff, and then you simultaneously follow you on Instagram and,

you know, like you look at your life, it seems like you're doing incredible work. You've got this gorgeous new studio. It seems like you're in this really beautiful, loving relationship that's open. And so to read the book and then sort of like see, oh, well, you know, like what's he up to now? Like today? Because like there's always, the book is always historical and oftentimes it's a couple of years in the past. Yeah. How does it feel to you? Sort of like being in the place that you are personally now, and then knowing that there's this book coming out at this very time that's really telling the story that's tough about a past moment feeling at least from the outside looking in so different now than you did then i mean i wouldn't i wouldn't be where i'm at without without that story without the book

so i wouldn't have tina my girlfriend i just wouldn't be in the place i am creatively without this moment without this book without the story you know the book in the book and uh so for that you know i'm thankful and that's it i don't struggle with it you know it's a couple years old at this point so yeah yeah you know you made me think about something though it's not uh this is thing it's quoted by how like um It's not how pretty the voice is. It's about whether the voice is telling the truth. I've been thinking a lot about that. And that truth is constantly changing.

And that's what it is. It's like you listen to an album. It's no different than getting a Taylor Swift album or something. You also have to take it it's funny because I think sometimes people it's art you know and how do you consume it as art enjoy it as art criticize it or whatever you want and let it be that and yes like find out what's happening to the person now find out where they're at But that piece of art exists by itself. And it almost isn't even about that person.

You take it for you and you identify with the way you want to identify with it. Or your own experiences will help you do that. And that's the beauty of it, you know? Of course, it's like in the past. You know, just like any album you listen to. Or movie or documentary you see or something, you know of course it's like in the past you know just like any album you listen to or movie or documentary you see or something you know when you write this book like the way that you described doing the mural on the basketball court like you know like public basketball court and like part of that was you had a hope like you had an intention you want these kids to show up and be able to just like absolutely love the court that they're playing on when you write a book like

this part of it of course is about you like needing to express something and doing it in a way that feels really honest and true and good to you. Do you have an intention for this, for the, like when you send it out into the world too, for other people that might interact with it? Yeah. I mean, obviously it's for everyone. You know, most people have been in love. Most people have been heartbroken.

I want to give it a new take on these topics. I think my take is unique in the sense of the way I tell the story, the way I feel like I kind of dig deep. And I want men to dig deep with it. As I said earlier, you know, I want men to read the story. I want men to feel like it's okay not to be okay. Or it's okay to, like I said, to have two contradictory things coexist, like being masculine and also going to therapy and crying and asking for help and admitting you don't know and being vulnerable and all these things. You can be both. And I hope that this can be a lesson for so many men. And I hope that this can be a lesson for so many men and I hope that women give it to the men in their life. I hope men buy it.

I hope, you know, and that's important to me as well. But it really, it's just a journey of what it means to show up for yourself. And, you know, and I think we're all trying to do that, you know, and life goes on, you know. This is a moment in my life, you know, we've my life. Many of us have had these moments and you'll have many more. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container, a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to being a decent person, you know, and all that comes with it is, uh, and being of service.

I'm recognizing how profound that feels to me at this point in my life. And, um, trying to be better at my interpersonal relationships, you know, trying to be a better friend, trying to be a better son, not to be a better son. I'm not holding myself to some unrealistic standard, but how do I show up better for myself and to the people in my life? Because it's fragile, you know, and we've seen that over the course of the pandemic. And, you know, my grandmother, who's very close to me, is really suffering and dying from dementia.

You know, it's sad. It's really hard to be mourning someone who's, I've already mourned her, but she's not gone, you know. My book is dedicated to the lonely people. So the loneliness is always there for me, no matter what, success, failure, single relationship, no matter what, I feel a strong bond to what it means to be lonely because i think we

put this um stigma around around it it doesn't have to you know i think it could be quite beautiful and it's not something to necessarily fix it's it's there to to reconnect this sometimes it's what it means to be human and that rawness is an opportunity to feel connected to, I know our place in life, our feet on the ground, our breath or, you know, and I think that's, that's really beautiful and I'm thankful for it. So. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we Thank you. app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did

since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person, just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those, you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better. so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes

the Apple Watch Series X available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iPhone XS or later required charge time and actual results will vary