Good Life Project - Macy Gray | Life Beyond "I Try."

Episode Date: April 30, 2020

Macy Gray's unmistakable rasp, soul, and powerful spirit established as a 21st-century music icon with her triple-platinum album On How Life Is in 1999, featuring the generation-defining song "I Try." She's sold over 25 million albums, winning a GRAMMY, two BRITs, and collaborating with everyone from Ariana Grande to Galactic, and sold out venues in nearly every corner of the globe. Macy’s talents resound beyond music as well. She starred in Tyler Perry’s Black Reel Award-winning For Colored Girls and graced the screen everywhere from Brotherly Love and Cardboard Boxer to NETFLIX’s hit Fuller House, and made a legendary appearance in Training Day alongside Academy Award winner Denzel Washington. Now, her tenth full-length album, RUBY (https://amzn.to/3d0T2Vg), reaffirms and reasserts that signature rarity millions continue to treasure. Channeling the spirit of the R&B and jazz closest to her heart, Gray made a leap forward by looking back to formative inspirations. In the end, RUBY represents Macy Gray at her most passionate, poetic, and powerful.You can find Macy Gray at: Website: https://macygray.com/ | Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/macygray/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Growing up in Kenton, Ohio, developing an interest in music and eventually heading off to college, but just relentlessly playing music on the side with friends, with bands. Macy Gray started to make a bit of a name for herself, but also found a ton of struggle, early deals with major record labels that just didn't pan out. And yet along with all of this struggle, she refused to give up. Finally, in 1999, she broke through in the music world with her iconic song, I Try, selling more than 25 million albums, winning a Grammy, two Brit Awards. She was on top of the world, but the journey that got her there was really hard. And the years that would follow would bring even more challenge, but often of a different nature, including the pressures of

managing fame and the introduction of drugs to her world. Having landed in a more grounded place in life now, more seasoned, wiser, focused intensely on her work, her fierce creative talent and powerful, distinct voice have opened the door to tours, new albums, even appearances on screen, acting alongside people like Denzel Washington and so many others. Her most recent album, Ruby, with the song Buddha, where she collaborates with one of my favorite players out there right now, Gary Clark Jr., offers a line that really seems to be her current mantra, I'm all right now. So really excited to share this conversation and Macy's journey with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just

15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. Yeah, so good to be hanging out with you. I know it's weird times, right?

Because you're in New York City playing it. You were here to play a show with The Beacon. On the day that New York says, okay, all shows are shut down. They just, because of the 500 capacity, they didn't, there was no public ticket sales. It was only, they call it friends and family yeah people on the list and it was huge it went on for five hours no kidding yeah they had everybody it was dave matthews black crows jackson brown me justin everybody leon bridges was um was jimmy vaughn in it because i know he was up for that show last year. Jimmy Vaughn was there,

Fox and Tedeschi. Yeah. So I kind of want to bounce around, like just explore some different things for you. I mean, you're originally from Ohio, Canton area. Yeah, Canton, Ohio. Yeah.

Do you have fond memories of growing up there? Of course, yeah. I had a cool childhood. My mom was a teacher and my dad worked at a factory and he had a barbershop and it's Midwest. So it was pretty boring and simple, but it's a good way to grow up though, because you have your values first and stuff like that. So was your dad's barbershop sort of like

that classical barbershop that you think of where it's just kind of like, it's the hub where everyone's hanging out chatting. Yeah. It was like four old guys. They actually called themselves Old Thomas. They had an Old Thomas Club. Oh, that's awesome. Like the same customers they had had since they started were still coming there. It was always packed. Always talking.

But it was like old man lingo. Yeah. It was like stuff they talked about. I didn't know what was going on. Did you hang out there much or not really? I was always there because I had to go there after school and wait for him to take me home. On Saturdays, my mom would drop me off there if she had something to do, you know, because I couldn't be home by myself.

Yeah. So you're like a fixture. I was always at the barbershop. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. He taught me how to cut a little bit. Oh, did he really?

A little bit. I'm not as good as he was. I can do a proper fade and a line up. I can line your hair up pretty nice. That's pretty awesome. Yeah. So, I mean, it must have been so fun also because I think so many stories get told when you're kind of kicking around an environment like that. I think people come clean, they get honest, and you get to know what's really happening around certain people's lives and settings like that. And like, I think people come, come clean, they get honest and they just sort of like, you get to know what's really happening sort of like around certain people's lives and settings like that. Yeah. It's, um, it's cool. The thing about the Midwest is it's honest. Like people

don't, there's no nuance when you meet somebody from Ohio, they kind of, kind of is what it is. You are what you are. Cause I live in LA Because I live in L.A., so that's all nuance. Totally different. Right. There's nothing but nuance. Yeah. So it's cool. It's a cool way to grow.

It's a good start, I think. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of like I'm a New Yorker. I grew up just outside of New York. I've been in the city for 30 years. Oh, really? So it's sort of like this is kind of what I know, you know? Yeah, exactly.

L.A. is kind of a similar know, you know? Yeah, exactly. LA is kind of a similar vibe, but not quite. No, LA is a whole nother planet. You have to live there to know what I'm talking about. Yeah. What part of LA are you in? I live in the Valley.

Yeah. But I've lived all over LA. I've been out there since I was 17. I went there to go to school. I went to USC. Right. And I've kind of been out there ever since. So, I mean, when does music enter your life?

I mean, it sounds like you actually, like, was piano the first exposure for you, or was there something else? Piano when I was seven. Yeah. I took piano lessons. Was that voluntary, or was that like your parents saying you will learn an instrument? Oh, yeah. That was all forced.

Yeah. That was all torture. Did you like it? I mean, was there... No, I hated it. My teacher was like a thousand years old and she was really slow. And, you know, like today I see a lot of teachers, like when I took my kids to get piano lessons, they would say, tell me your favorite song and I'll teach you how to play your favorite

song, you know? But when I was coming up, it was all theory and technique and classical training and stuff like that. Yeah, so it's like scales and doing all the stuff that is. Yeah, super boring. Right. But it's cool to know all that stuff. I don't regret it.

Yeah. It's cool to, you know, I get to impress the guys with my knowledge of scales. Has the theory side stayed with you over the years? Oh, yeah, that's stuff you never forget. It's like going to school, you never forget math and stuff like that. Do you still play piano? Yeah.

Yeah. Because I know when you compose, it's mostly just by voice, right? Or when you're sort of like thinking of when you're actually like writing. Yeah, I've written some stuff on the guitar. It's weird, I'm not a guitar player, but I know the chords. So all the songs that I've written the music for, I wrote them on a guitar. Oh, no. I'm not a guitar player, but I know the chords. So all the songs that I've written the music for, I wrote them on the guitar. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, isn't that weird?

Even since the early days. Yeah, I wrote I Tried on the guitar. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, because I didn't have a piano at my house. I do now. Right. I guess it takes a lot less space to do it on guitar. Especially in the early days when most of us have these little studios or something like that.

Guitars are so portable. Yeah, I know, for sure. So that's like your early exposure, but it sounds like it didn't land well. Did you stay with it long enough where you turned the corner and you hit a point where you learned enough where it started to become fun? Or for you, was it always just kind of like, I'm doing this because I have to and I can't wait to be done? No. Piano lessons I always hated and I had to take it till I was in high school and then

but it sticks with you and you do without even realizing it. You start writing songs, you know, start getting ideas and you listen to music differently than most people. Tell me more about that.

How so? Like, you listen to... I don't know. I listen to a lot of production. I listen to... Like, you hear detail a lot when you're a musician. And voice and...

You know, you can tell when somebody's flat. You know, whereas the average person doesn't really care if somebody's flat. Do you know what I tell when somebody's flat you know whereas the average person doesn't really care if somebody's flat do you know what i mean like when rappers sing it just really bothers me because they can't sing because they sing it away but it's most but like my son doesn't really care do you know what i mean yeah so your son's in the business now he he's actually uh written songs for a couple artists but uh he's he's not like it's not his whole thing yet, no.

Yeah. He's 23. He's still figuring it out. It's interesting, too, that you say you can kind of hear it when somebody's off a little bit. Because these days, when I have a bunch of friends who are sort of like in the business, and they pretty much all say that almost any producer that you work with these days, it's almost like you almost don't have a choice to go through auto-tune and go through all these things where it basically kind of makes you sound as perfect as they can.

Do you find that that's the experience still? Yeah, there's plenty of machines, but you can still hear. If you're a musician, you can still hear the off. Like you can hear the auto-tune. You know what I mean? There's all this software, this Melodyne, which I use because you want to deliver a certain quality. But you can, stuff like Auto-Tune you can hear. I don't know if you can hear Melodyne very much, but everybody uses Melodyne.

It's like editing a film. Got it. It's like they go away and if somebody's even a little bit off-melodon, fixes it vocally. It just tweaks it, yeah. Yeah. I mean, but when you're live on stage, obviously you're not using stuff like that. Because I get a sense that there's more power. There's more.

If you listen to yourself live on stage and if you listen to yourself once you're in the studio, do you favor one or the other? Live. I'm much better live. Yeah. Yeah, because live is immediate and you got to get it right. And I have all the energy around me. I have to be on for my audience and my band. I'm like pitch and everything.

I'm better live. Because in the studio, you get all these chances. And you can mess around and you get drunk you smoke a bunch of weed and you know what i mean so you have all this time you can go back and do it tomorrow but live you got you got one shot you know yeah so it's like the stakes are higher when you're live so you see i i usually rise to the occasion live but in the studio i I know I got, you know, all those machines you were talking about. And I don't know, it's mental.

Yeah, and a number of takes also, right, if you need it. Yeah. I don't need a lot of takes, though. I'm pretty good in the studio. But just live, I'm much better. So you mentioned you went to USC for school. Where did you actually go to study when you went there? Screenwriting. Where did that come from? Were you into movies or writing when you were younger also?

Yeah, I had, that was actually my little, my little gift. I had, I was good at, good with the pen. I could like write my way through school. Like if I'd mess up in class, I'd write these really nice letters to my teachers. And I could always write. So when I was applying for colleges, I wasn't really interested in anything yet. My mother wanted me to be a doctor because she knew doctors made a lot of money. But I had no interest in science. The only thing I could do was write. So I applied to only a writing program.

So Stanford had creative creative writing USC had screen writing um I forget the other schools I applied to but I only applied to schools in California because I wanted to live in California and I only applied to schools that had writing and I got in all of them oh that's amazing what made you end up in USC was it because it was LA or something else um I think probably they gave me the most money. Got it, yeah. Knowing my parents, that's what it was. And it's how it is for so many of us, right?

It's sort of like, okay. Yeah, I think that's what happened. They're all good, but what do you got? Yeah. Were you writing just for yourself when you were a kid? Were you doing poetry or stories or anything else? Or it was really just more like your school? Yeah, I could write anything.

I still can. I could do poetry anytime we had essays and stuff and then i got through college with that i used to write papers for the people for money no kidding yeah i used to write essays and stuff yeah yeah that's what you gotta do so you're so you're in school but it sounds like even though the music bug didn't take when you were a kid on the piano, it does start to take when you're in college. How does that start to touch down?

Just that was a lot of the, my friends were music students and I hung out with them a lot and they would always get together writing and go into the studio and stuff like that. And it just kind of grew on me. I don't know. I started doing shows with this band, this little jazz band. I couldn't really sing, but it was just so much fun to me. And then I got out of school and I actually started working in movies

because I still thought I was going to be like a big shot movie producer. I thought I was going to like write movies and be like Steven Spielberg. Yeah. Oh, so you're still like in school the whole time. Like the music's happening on the side, but you're still focused on, okay, I'm going to be a writer or screenwriter. Yeah. Oh, no kidding.

Because that's what I went to school for. Yeah. I thought that's what I was going to do. Right. So was your first step out? I mean, did you try and find a sort of like a regular mainstream gig, like in the movie industry? Yeah, I was a PA for a while.

Yeah, right. The one with the headsets or like telling people when they get... We don't even get a headset. That's the first thing you need. Oh, man. Oh, flush the toilet. Like, you go do whatever. It's a horrible job. You gotta work your way up.

But I did that for like two years. It's a horrible job. You gotta work your way up. But I did that for like two years. I was a waitress. I used to clean this photographer's studio. I did all kind of... I worked at McDonald's, Wendy's. I did all that stuff. Yeah. Basically anything you need to do. Yeah. And music was just kind of happening in the background

for you at that point? Yeah, I was in a band the whole time. Got it. Same band or bopping around with different bands? different one like i put together my own band after i got out of school it was a rock band and we used to play oh all that so back then i don't know how it is now the up and coming what they have to go through but back then there's they call it the strip yeah and there's all these live clubs on the strip on sunset mostly and then um i think it's kind of the same probably isn't it i don't know you know i haven't kept up all those clubs are still there yeah right but uh i don't really know how it works but back then we had pay to play

so you had to pay and then you could you could do a show at this club right yeah or it's almost like i know this happens in the comedy world um does this happen. Right, yeah. Or it's almost like, I know this happens in the comedy world. Does this happen in the music world also where it's like they call them bringer shows? Where it's like you got to bring, like you get an hour or 30 minutes on the stage, but you got to bring a certain amount of people to basically pay the cover or like buy booze. Yeah, we had to buy tickets.

So we had to buy our own tickets and then we could go sell the tickets. But none of our friends had any money. So that was all in vain. But you had to buy like, gosh, I'm going to age myself right now. It was only maybe $200 back then. But that was like hard for us to scrape up. Yeah.

Between the four of us. I mean, if you're just getting by. So it's kind of funny. So it's like you buy tickets, like you work your day job to basically buy tickets to give to your friends to come for free. Exactly, because they don't have it. Right. I know, because the only way you're making money back is if they pay $10 each and they're like, I'm not paying $10.

It comes to you. You know what I mean? I don't even have $10. Right. And plus, you're my friend. I mean, come on. Yeah, and then half of them wouldn't even show up anyway. So we'd be playing for like 10 people.

I don't know. When you're that young, you don't really care about that kind of stuff. You just want to play. Yeah, I hear you. In those bands, were you singing? Were you playing instruments? Or were you just sort of like mixing it up different things?

No, I was singing, but I was doing a lot of the writing with my band and stuff like that. We actually put out a couple songs that I did back then. Oh, no kidding? One of my late albums. Do you have those somewhere still? Yeah, there's a song called Sweet Baby that was on my second album.

There's a song called Hairy that was on my second album. I wrote I Try, of course, back then. Yeah. I'm curious, actually, how you actually stepped into the role of singing. Because when you're hanging out and you're creating a jazz band, what was it in you that said, okay, I want to be the singer?

Because, you know, you've got a whole bunch of players. What made you say, this is the role I want to play? Like, I want to sing. And then also, like, how did you feel about your voice when you start singing? I wasn't crazy about it. I thought it was pretty peculiar. But I just enjoyed it. I couldn't stay away from it.

And I really liked being on stage. And I liked the hustle. I liked trying to get my friends there. You know, that was in social media. So you had to, like, go all over Hollywood and put your stickers. We had to make stickers, like band stickers. I don't think anybody does. Do people still do that?

I don't even know. No, I remember, like, you used to make, like, give all, like like the little invites and hang them out i think we're a similar age also i remember all that stuff giving people flyers and so that's so but i i just like for some reason i was so attached to that and then i used to send my little demo tapes. That's how old I am. We had demo tapes, little cassettes. Yeah. And we used to, there was this magazine. What was it called? Music something.

There was like a weekly trade magazine for musicians. And it always had listed all the A&R and their phone numbers. That's not going to happen today. No. So we used to call them up and send them ourR and their phone numbers. That's not going to happen today. No. We used to call them up and send them our tapes and stuff like that. I don't know. That was just so much fun to me. Yeah.

I used to dream about it. I mean, did you think at that point, like, okay, so I want this to be my thing, like this is my career? Or were you still hanging on to, look, I'm working whatever jobs I can. I'm doing music because I just love it. But I still kind of want to work my way into screenwriting in some way, shape, or form. I wasn't doing PA stuff.

I just thought that's what I would do because that's what I went to school for. That was just in my head. You know what I mean? But I was spending all my time on music. And I don't think I knew what was going to happen. I just think, I think I knew in the back of my head that it was reachable, that I could get there somehow.

Yeah. Like it seemed, that felt possible to me for some reason. Right. Okay, so you're fresh out of USA. You're digging around LA. You've, you come from this, you know, like awesome sort of like Ohio value set and your mom wants you to be a doctor or something like that.

Yeah. What's, what are your, what's going through your parents' minds and what are the conversations with them after you're out of school? And you're like, this music thing is sort of like drawing me in. And, and were they sort of curious about what you were up to? Yeah. I don't, I don't know. My parents kind of let me be on my,

cause like I said, that's that Midwest thing. Like in Ohio, when you're 18, you're an adult. It's not like we do now. Like we have 25 year olds living in our houses. They didn't do that.

So I was on my own. So I think they would just let me be on my own. I think they would just, you know, they figured I'd figure it out. You know, they weren't really bashing me or encouraging me either way. They did not think I could sing. My mother was very clear. She says, you cannot sing. You need to let that go.

Oh, no kidding. She did. She said, you need to figure out what you're going to do. I don't know what you're going to do, but you need to stop trying to sing. I remember that conversation. What was that like when your mom tells you that? Did you believe her at any point? No.

I was at that age. I didn't really listen to my mom. But I vividly remember that conversation. When people tell you stuff like that, you just want to do it more. You don't want nobody telling you what you can't do. That's the worst thing you can tell somebody. Especially a parent. Yeah.

Especially with a kid in their 20s. Yeah, good luck with that. Okay, you just gave me all the ammunition. I need to go all in on this one thing. Yeah, they just don't want to talk to you for a week. That's all that accomplishes. Right. But in their mind, basically, as long as you're paying, you're taking care of yourself, it's kind of like you do your thing. Yeah, I mean, I was still like needing money from my dad and I was putting my food on their credit card and stuff like that yeah um that's the thing they would call about like why do you put another pizza on my credit card that's the conversations i was having

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you're gigging around and at some point you, you meet Joe Solo. Yeah. And that sounds like that was kind of the catalyst to creating the demos that would eventually lead to the first time you got signed.

Yeah, that was, Joe was one of the bands. He's probably in the third band that I was with got it yeah three simultaneously or no like i had my band in college then i got out of college and i started this like it was like a hard rock band like literally all the guys had long hair and we did like soft metallica right and then um and then i met joe and then we did another whole thing do you have a picture of that like you and and sort of like the hair metal band somewhere? I do, somewhere. I got to dig that up. That's probably old.

That's awesome. Right, because that would have been sort of like the late 80s, right? The early 90s. Early 90s, yeah. Right, yeah. That's sort of like the height of all of that. Yeah, I got out of school in 91. Right, so it's the height of all of that. Yeah, I got out of school in 91. Right.

So it's the height of all that stuff. So you, I mean, it sounds like you and Joe really started, were you co-writing? Were you recording? Was sort of like doing the demo thing? Because I think that turned into a really long-term collaboration too. Yeah, we did demos. We did a million demos. Yeah.

What was it? Because pretty soon after that was when you first got signed to Atlantic, right? Yeah, so. Or was there something in the middle there? after that was when you first got signed to Atlantic, right? Yeah. So. Or was there something in the middle there? No, I got signed to Atlantic when I was with Joe. He didn't. He was on the Atlantic record.

Yeah. So is it like 97, 98-ish or something like that? I forget. I remember I was 24. So I don't know. 90-something. Yeah. I'm 90.

What was it like when a company like Atlantic says, okay. So, I don't know, 90-something. Yeah. What was it like when a company like Atlantic says, okay, do you have a deal? Because especially in LA, that's sort of like the dream. Oh, yeah, that was huge. Yeah, you know, like when you get the record deal, because you don't know anything about the music business, so you think that's it. I got a record deal.

I'm going to be in Michael Jackson. You know what I mean? By tomorrow. But it doesn't work like that. So, yeah, so I got signed. Right after I got signed, I got pregnant. And I made my album, and then they dropped me. What was the reason that they gave you for dropping you?

I remember they got a new president, and they didn't really give me a reason. They just thought that was it. Yeah. It was like, they don't want to put your record out. But we made a whole record. We did the cover and everything. Oh, so you made it, but they didn't put it out? No.

When something like that happens, because I don't know this, do you get the rights on the music to then keep it and do something else with it, or do they just own it no matter what? No, they own it. That's the big jack you get when you sign a record deal. At this point, I would never sign over everything. And then back then, everything was perpetuity. So once you sign a record deal, they have it forever. So basically, they could just take an album and sit on it and never release it.

Or decide 20 years later, if you get famous, oh, look what we have. Yeah, exactly. That's changed a lot now, though, hasn't it? Or not so much? Not really. Really? No. Only thing that's really changed is, you know, of course, streaming is how people hear music,

which speaks to what people, artists get in return for that. But most record deals are, you know, they take the record, yeah. Yeah. Because they pay for it. It's like if you pay for a they take the record, yeah. Yeah. Because they pay for it. It's like if you pay for a hamburger, it's your hamburger. Yeah. So you're pregnant with your first kid. Atlantic drops you.

What's going through your mind at that point? Having a healthy baby. I just wanted to have healthy. I remember that being my, because I used to party a lot I was drinking me and my ex-husband smoked

you know like we did everything so I was really I remember just being really stressed out about my baby being healthy yeah

so everything kind of focuses on that at that point yeah and then we got married and I was it was just oh no I didn't get married on my first we were

I moved in with him though and that was it was just oh no I didn't get married on my first we were I moved in with him though that was crazy but I kept playing I was doing shows eight seven eight months pregnant I was working yeah still doing everything so you're still out gigging and everything else is happening but the record deal is something on the side that kind of goes away I mean in your mind when something like that happens because you're're young too, right? Do you think to yourself, well, okay, I'm just not right for them or they're not right for me, but something else would come along? Or do you think like, I had my shot and like, that was it? Yeah, I didn't know what was going to happen. I kept playing. So obviously I felt like it wasn't over. And that's really, at that point, that's the only thing I figured I could do well. And where I knew people and I knew the music scene and stuff.

So I stayed stuck with that. I was doing like temp jobs, like office jobs, stuff like that. Did you stay in LA the whole time after that? Yep. Right. So you're kind of heads down, still performing still and still writing also. So how does, because pretty shortly after that, you end up back with Epic, right? No, I actually had my baby and then I got pregnant again. Okay. So a couple of years where you're essentially becoming a mom and raising a family and at the same time still out playing a lot.

Yes. becoming a mom and raising a family and at the same time still out playing a lot. Yeah. So how does, how do you sort of step back into the world of, of recording and, and was Epic this early then? Cause it was Epic that then releases the album with I Tried pretty shortly after that, right? Yeah. So, okay. So a lot happened. Yeah. Walk me through it.

Okay. So I have two kids now and I'm just working. This is me and my ex-husband. And we live in the Valley. I'm still doing music, like making songs and stuff, but it's different because I have two now. Yeah. And him and me aren't getting along at all,

but I'm still kind of sending out my tapes and stuff. And then we separated. I moved back in with my mother and my two kids because I'm pregnant again. Right. Oh, in Ohio or in? I was pregnant with my third and I moved back to Ohio. Stayed with my mom because me and my husband. Yeah.

And then it was so weird. I'm at home and I get a call from Zamba Publishing, which is now Universal. Oh, okay. Yeah. So this guy named Jeff. So he says, somehow he got a hold of my demo tape. It must have been something I had sent out a long time ago. He was listening to stuff.

And he wanted to get together and meet about a publishing deal. So I'm like eight months pregnant. And I just went through that thing with Atlantic. Living in Ohio. I know. So I said, oh, you know, I'm really busy. I can't meet with you right now. And I said, maybe I can meet with you, you know, like maybe sometime in October.

And he was like, what? You know. Right. It's like people don't do this. Like, come on. But looking back, I think that's what made him want me more. Right. I'm busy, you know.

So sure enough, he calls back like a week before I have my kid. And I said, oh, yeah, I'm still really tied up. They'll call you when, you know, when I'm available. So I have my kid, my third one. And literally, he calls me that next day. He didn't know I was having a baby. But he called me the next day. And then we set up for me to go out to New York.

I went out to New York. Like two days later, my brother drove me out there. And then I met with him and the president of Zamba and I got signed. Yeah. Yeah. I had my kid in October and I had my publishing deal for the end of the year. That's amazing. So it's like in the blink of an eye, it's just everything changes to a certain extent. I know. They offered me $35,000, which was a fortune to me back then and then i moved back to la i was back in la by january got it so was it a deal to write to produce like for an album or for songs or yeah it was just uh for the songs that he i try was on there yeah and so

he was signing me but at the same time he was shopping me. Because a lot of people don't know publishers, like it behooves them to help you get a record deal because that's how they're going to sell their song. Okay, so he was shopping me to all these labels. And before you know it, I had a bidding war. I had like eight labels after me. No kidding. Wow. What was going through

your head when when so like you go from being at home with your mom um having your third kid two days later you're in new york sign a publishing deal and then all of a sudden he's wrapping you around and there's a bidding war for an album what's going through your head when all this is happening um i was just i'm still enjoying my 35 grand by the way and then uh uh you know i had um kids and and uh right yeah this was all super new to me and like i said i still didn't know the business so i didn't know i knew it was cool to have eight labels after you of course but i didn't know the gravity like i didn't know what that meant i didn't know how big of a deal that was. Yeah.

And then I did the showcasing. Everybody was there. Doug Morris was there. Polly Anthony. Like, all these big, you know, like, all the top people of the record business. But I didn't know who they were. Right. So I was fine.

Yeah. Which was good because I just performed. Right. Was this, like, in a conference room in one of their places or at a small club or something like that? It was at this. They rented out a private room in this club back then called Luna. Yeah. And it was probably maybe 30 people there.

They were all there. But I didn't know. Jason Flom was there. So I did my show. And then a bunch of people made offers offers and I ended up going with Epic. Yeah. That's amazing. So at that point, at that point also, you're like, okay, this is incredible. I mean, all these people are bidding after me, but at the same time, you kind of know you were signed once before and it's just because that happens doesn't necessarily

mean really big things are going to happen to you are you sort of like a little bit more cautious as you're sort of you know like going into this um a collaboration with epic at that point or were you just all in again you're like you know what i'm let's just do this yeah i was just all in i was really like it was so i was so lucky to not know anything yeah. So it never occurred to me I might get dropped again. I just wanted to make my album. I was really excited about all these new songs that I wrote. I was actually fighting with Epic because I wanted my producer,

who was helping me write at the time, and they wanted another producer. Because without explaining it to me, they didn't want me to be an R&B artist. They didn't want me to. Because they felt like my music was a little more crossover, a little different. So they didn't want to put me out as the next Mary J. or whatever. And my demos were very R&B, hip-hop. That's the kind of artist I thought I was going to be. Oh, so they're like, okay, so we heard the demo.

We see what you're capable of. But we want to slide you into a different genre. Yeah, but they didn't talk to me about that. They just were like, you know. First let's sign you. So I thought I was going to be like, you know, like this proper underground artist, you know. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And just make like little records and stuff i it wasn't thinking about it because that's kind of what i had always been yeah that's what i knew thought of myself and then um so they brought in andy slater um who's this jewish tall white guy i was like are you kidding me you know he wasn't he's not a musician at all to produce or to engineer produce

yeah he's not but he's very smart he knows he knows how like it's supposed to sound and he had he was managing

Fiona Apple and the Waffle House right which then were huge both of them were huge yeah yeah so

they brought in Andy and Andy kind of I mean, we fought the whole time, but he ended up getting whatever he wanted because he was just kind of that way. He could kind of talk you into anything. And so that turned out to be the

record we made. Yeah. But I mean, at the end of the day, that wasn't really an R&B record. I don't even know how you categorize it. I know. I think that's why they brought him in because they didn't want me into one little thing. Right. Yeah. And that's the record

that I try and land up on. Yeah, that's how life is. Right. So that record, when you're done with that record, you're like, okay, it's wrapped. We got the master done. We're going to market. Do you have any sense,

even the smallest sense, for what was about to happen once that record actually made its way out into the public? No. No, they put the record out, and I remember first thing Andy did was put me on the road. I was going to Europe a lot.

I had already done the UK. And I was like, see, in the world, I'm still in my 20s. I have three kids. I'm away from my nightmare marriage. And I'm meeting all these new people. Like, everybody on my tour had a DJ too. I had about a 12-piece band.

They're all in their 20s. This is all new to all of us. We're partying. We're having a blast. I brought my sister to babysit which was a disaster. She ended up leaving, going home. So I had the backup singers babysitting for me.

I made them take turns. It was like... It's a good rotation. Yeah, and then my DJ had a tech and I had him babysit on nights. I just made my band rotate. It was my first time I got to be a boss and tell everybody what I wanted to do.

I was kind of enjoying that. I remember when my record came out and I sold I think it was 8,992 records. I remember Polly called me. She said, you sold 8,992 records. And I screamed. I was the happiest.

You would have thought I sold 10 million records. I was the happiest person in the world because I had never sold records before. I mean, of course, they were disappointed, but I was on cloud nine. I thought I had made it, you know? Right. And then... So are they thinking in the back of their mind, oh, no, like, this is not happening?

Even though you're thinking this is awesome, but... No, I don't think they... Because you know what? Now that I know the record business, because I had that big bidding war, because they spent so much money on my record. They didn't have a choice. Polly didn't have a choice.

She had to bring my record. I didn't know that then, but I know how it works now. It's a good thing I didn't know because I would have just done things a lot differently and I probably would have messed up a lot of stuff. So anyway, I just kept touring and they were putting out my records and I would hear them on the radio and I thought life was great. And I remember it kept going up and then one week it went all the way down.

I sold 2,000 records one week. And then I was in the UK and I had just done this place called Shepherd's Bush in the UK. That's about a thousand people. That's the most people I had ever played for. Andy calls me and he says, your record is number one. And I said, what does that mean? And he said, that means that they play your record more than anybody else is in the whole country. What's going through your mind when you hear that?

He goes, Jay-Z got 9,000 spins this week. You got 9,800 or something like that. And I was like, oh. All I'm thinking is, wow, I beat Jay-Z. That's all I can think about. I didn't really know what that meant because I was never one to look on the charts.

When you're a fan, as a fan I never cared who was number one. I just was liking the songs that I liked. All of a sudden now I'm looking at charts and stuff like that. That was kind of my first taste of what it was like to be popular.

By their standards, selling a lot of records. Yeah. And from there, that album just kind of explodes. Yeah. And it sounds like, I mean, it's a great album, but also largely, you know, this one song becomes massive all over the place. I mean, to the point where it ends up winning all these awards, it puts you on the award shows. How are you, I mean, because you go from, you know, working really hard in the LA scene, having a family, coming back, doing this album, and then gigging around the UK and various different places, kind of like not really even entirely knowing what's happened with the album back in the US. And then all of a sudden, it explodes.

Ton of attention, ton of media. From a success standpoint, I mean, now you're selling millions and millions of copies. That is a financial success in the album's eyes also. How are you just handling it, like psychologically and emotionally? How are you kind of like handling that moment

in time? And a lot of fame also, a lot of eyeballs on you. Yeah. It was really new. I definitely had an asshole period where I was, you know, thought I was, you know, God's gift. And I was acting that way. And, you know, suddenly I was getting whatever I wanted, you know. I could go to wherever I wanted.

If I wanted to fly private, they'd fly me private. It's kind of the same way. You really can do whatever you want. And if you're not... I don't know any human that wouldn't enjoy that and wouldn't exploit it and wouldn't abuse it a little bit. I mean, that's not even normal. So I definitely went through that.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, at the same time also, I know you've been really open about as that fame sort of like started coming your way. And you're really enjoying all this stuff. Also, you sort of like step into the world where there's also a lot of drugs, a lot of different kind of drugs. And coming from coming from Ohio as a from what I understand, also a fairly straight laced kid, it's kind of a new world. I mean, granted, yes, you were in L.A. before that. But this is sort of like the access to substances and to money and to fame on an entirely different level.

And that became a bigger part of your world for a window of time. Well, I think people have this perspective of me as I'm this horrible drug addict. But I went to, I was just partying a lot. I was probably in my, I think when I first came out, I was 28, I think. 28, 29, I don't know. So, and I had never done that before. I'd never been like, you know, a big drinker. I barely smoked weed before.

I smoked a little bit. I was not like a big weed head, but I like pot. But that was it, you know. I'd never done blow before. First time I did ecst it, I was in Europe. And so all of a sudden, I have access to all this stuff. And because a couple of my songs were about getting stoned, people assumed I was this big pothead.

So I'd do shows and people would literally throw joints on stage. So we just had all this stuff. And then we'd go to Europe. And at that time, that's when mdma started becoming a really big deal like the pure like the good stuff i don't know what they're doing now but then it was like a little powder and it was pure so everybody was just trying stuff and i think um i did get attached to it because it was it felt good and i would write these incredible songs when i was when i

was high like great songs like we did mushrooms one night and i wrote the best song i don't even remember it but it was this incredible song in my mind right in the moment there's like this is the best song ever exactly so so it was more access it was more just I had access to all this stuff. And, you know, there's no moderate way to do drugs. Like, you can think, oh, I just do blow on the weekends. But if you do blow on the weekends, then you're attached. You know what I mean? If you do it more than once, you kind of have a problem at that point.

Because it affects your life so tremendously. But it does take over um, um, yeah, I mean, also, it does take over a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's also, I mean, when you think, when you're thinking to yourself, you know, I think about like the Beatles talked about their time where they're doing a lot of LSD and like to expand their mind and like write all this amazing music. But then I think about a lot of other people that I know that have been through windows like that, who are either performing artists or

in music business. And when they look back at what they thought was this incredible work, when they're sort of looking at these mind-expanding stuff, once they were sort of sober and reflecting on it, they're like, oh wow, that's not what I actually thought it was. I know. I do have an album. I won't

admit to what one was. But I thought it was the greatest album, and I'm yelling at Epic, like, why can't you sell this album? And I listened to it maybe about six months ago and it's horrible. I was like, what is that? My voice is bad. The production is terrible. Whoever engineered it must have been on drugs with me. It's terrible. But yeah, you don't realize that until later. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. I mean, in the middle of this also, so that comes out, and you start working on a series of follow-up albums too, but also it's kind of interesting because that early interest in screenwriting and the movie business kind of starts to sneak back in, you know, like both you on screen and also with music. So it's, it's almost like that thing was that kind of always brewing in the background or had you pretty much left it behind and then all of a sudden you got these opportunities to sort of like step back into it in different ways no i i still uh right actually but uh and and yeah me doing movies was totally just fell in my lap i i never thought i'd

be doing any acting but i got offers to do. Yeah. Cause the first was the first, the very first one training day or was there something else there? Training day. Right. So, so, so the first time is, is you on screen with one of the most iconic actors of our time, Denzel. Yeah. I know.

How does that land in your lap? How does that, how does that come to you? That was cool. Cause, cause I wasn't going to do it. Cause like I said, I didn't see myself as an actress. And then when he told me that Denzel was in it, I told him I'd do it because I wanted to get pictures with Denzel and show my mom. Because I wasn't taking him seriously at all. But, you know, when you're on set and there's people looking, you want to do good.

You don't want to fool yourself. So I got myself together and I learned my part and I got an acting coach and all that stuff. Yeah. I did my thing. But, an acting coach and all that stuff. Yeah. I did my thing. But yeah, that really fell in my lap. I rocked up on that one. Yeah. What was, I mean, when you do that, because I know you get, you probably get a certain

feeling when you're on stage, when you're like, when you're either recording or on stage, that makes you, it's almost just kind of like amazing. There's like a merging of you and the audience and the moment and the music. Do you get any similar sense of that from acting or not so much? No, it's just different. For me, acting is much more of a study.

It's much more of a preparing and learning your lines and then you have to study you know, study your character, and there's all these notes you make. Like, the method I'm learning, like, you have to, every line that the character reads, you have to write what they mean by that. Like, you know how you say stuff that you don't mean? So you have to go through every line

and dissect what the character's thinking behind what they're saying. And then you kind of start dressing like the character and all that Robert De Niro stuff, you know. So it's much more of a study, much more of a, for me. I'm sure that somebody like Meryl Streep, she can probably do it in her sleep by now. She probably doesn't have to do all that. Yeah. But I have to. But it sounds like you really approached it like a student. Like, if I'm going to do this, let me study. Were you taking

lessons or working with a coach and stuff like that? Yeah, I'm still very much a student of it. But I've been on sets where, you know, I was on a set with Nicole Kidman and she had her coach there. And you know, I've sat on sets where, you know, I was on a set with Nicole Kidman and she had her coach there. And, you know, I've sat with actors who told me they spent seven months prepping for their part and stuff like that. So it really is a study. And I think you're always a student of whatever you do.

You know, I'm still learning music. I learn stuff about singing every day. You know what I mean? Yeah. Do you feel like music and acting, like one makes you better at the other in any way or one gives you material for the other in any way? For acting, just through my singing, because the only way I really can get a message across is if I'm

just completely empty of myself. I have to be all heart. You know what I mean? When I get behind the mic, I can't have nothing on my head. I can't have nothing on my mind. Everything has to flow from one place. So I try to bring that to my acting, but it doesn't come as naturally as it does for what I'm singing. Yeah.

I mean, I guess maybe even the closer part of the music business would be when you're recording in a studio, right? Because you don't have the responsiveness or the energy of the audience. It's kind of like you know there's other people involved and very likely multiple takes and trying it this way and trying it that way. But it's like of like you know there's other people involved and very likely multiple takes and trying it this way and trying it that way but yeah it's like you said on stage you got one shot it's high stakes like we're on this together yeah that's it yeah the smile on your face when

you just like thought about that was like that seems like is that your happy place yeah yeah i feel i feel i'm really comfortable on stage. But a little too comfortable. But like I said, when I get on stage, I'm in that space where I don't have, there's nothing on me but that. Like I spend the whole day getting everything off me. And I don't like to do interviews. If anybody has bad news for me, they gotta wait.

I don't, you know like i pray like i just want to be a vessel like i just want to just want to own what i have you know my my art and then like you know what i mean and then when i get off stage everything can come down but when i'm up there i just want that's all i want to have on me. That's the only time in life you can really do that. Yeah. I think. No, I totally get it. For me anyway.

The only, I mean, the closest thing I've ever experienced that, I speak also. So I know if there's a couple thousand people waiting for me to step on stage for an hour, some people I know for the couple hours before, they just want to socialize with everyone. They want to talk. I kind of hide out. Yeah. You know, I don't want, I'm just like in my head, sort of like, you know, like being in my own space.

Yeah. Yeah, oh, I can't socialize. I don't, I really don't want no phone calls because people say things and they weigh on you and they don't mean to. Like somebody could say, oh, your bed isn't made. made and you know all of a sudden you think about your bed you know what i mean yeah so but when you you know that's why it's just good to just go in where you got nothing else on you and then and then because then you're giving your audience

all you got it's hard if you give them all that other stress and then they feel that too you know what i'm saying yeah completely it's kind of funny because it also to a certain extent i think that ties in so was it 2018 ruby came out right um and that's a lot of the theme of that album right it feels like this is an album that's contemplative like you're reflecting a lot and a lot of it is about being in the present moment right well i mean the som buddha right it's really about like i'm just focusing on what's happening in this moment right here which is a lot of what you're talking about yeah that's important do you feel like that's a sort of like a a like a theme in your life these days um i just learned that it's the

most important because, you know, of course, I have a lot of hang-ups about my past and things I wish I wouldn't want to defend in my career with my kids or, you know, my love affairs. I mean, we all do, I guess. So, and it's easy to dwell

on that. It's easy to beat yourself up. That's the easiest thing in the world, to kick yourself all day. You know what I mean? So, I'm just learning to get in, you know, to get to be at where I'm at. I don't know how better to say it.

To get to where I'm at instead of because I spend I wasted a lot of time trying to fix what I did before and I found out you can't really. Because people don't forget what you say or what you did. And you can try to clean stuff up. But you already made a mess.

You know what I mean? And there's forgiveness. And that's all cool in the movies. But at the end of the day, when you hurt somebody, they're hurt. You know what I mean? And so you can just try not to hurt anymore. That's really all you can do is just try to do better next time. That's my life.

Yeah. And it seems like that's, I mean, especially thinking about the album, it's kind of like a central thing for you. That song, by the way, I love that you got Gary Clark Jr. Ripping on guitar in the background. It's kind of like a central thing for you. That song, by the way, I love that you got Gary Clark Jr. Boo. Ripping on guitar in the background. Yeah. I mean, just somebody who blows my mind with sort of like the skills.

Actually, he came up a lot with Jimmy Vonn, like down in Austin. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah. Such a talent. Such like an amazing person. Have you ever talked to him?

I haven't. No, I would love to at some point. So we'll try and get him in the studio. And also you're at this moment too, because your kids were in their 20s now, right? Early 20s, yeah. Right. So in theory, they're out of the house and adults.

They're not. They're not. I so wish I had followed my mother's footsteps. Kicked them out a long time ago. Yeah, that's my advice to parents. If you let them stay past 20, 21, they're going to be there when they're 25. Yeah. No, not necessarily, but it's cool.

We're doing good. When they think about you, well, actually, I'm curious, you know, when they're coming up as kids in this environment of fame and busyness and travel, have you talked to them at all or sort of like had conversations over the years about what that's been like for them? Yeah, a little. They, I think it's all different for them because F3 and they all have taken it in very differently.

Like my son was telling me how when he was little, he thought that the way we lived was normal because by the time they were seven, eight, we were doing really well. And he thought that that was the norm and that everybody's mom, people wanted to take pictures of them. He didn't realize that what we had was unique until, I think he told me that when he was like 12 or 13. No, not that late.

Maybe 10. And then it's so funny, like six months ago, he came to me and he goes, mom, I'm sad. Like he was shocked that he was sad. Like his life has been so good that he wasn't used to having down moments. So he's going to think where I think reality is hitting him where he's realizing what what it really is you know instead of how you know some of the things have been you know just kind of dropped from the sky for him and then my oldest daughter very evolved she's actually more grown up than I am so and then I have another daughter who's who's 22 and she thinks she's 50 and she

doesn't know hardly anything so they all they all take you know they're all different people they all took it differently yeah i mean i mean it's interesting you brought up your son just sort of like experiencing that for the first time did you go through waves like that at all sort of like along the way also i mean i know you know that you came to a reckoning with you with with drugs and other stuff like that and made a lot a lot of different choices to clean things up. Were there windows just from a mindset standpoint where you went through lulls or depression

or feelings on that side? Oh, yeah. I was depressed for like two years. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. I was like in and out of my bed for like two years. What was that about? I mean, looking back, do you have a sense?

No, because I think when you're depressed, like when you're genuinely, like when, I think there's a difference. Like people, when they're down, and they say I'm depressed because that's just such a catchy word. But real depression, I think, sometimes you don't even know what's happening.

You know, you just can't seem to get moving. Yeah. Do you know what I mean what what got you out of that that window um nothing in particular i think it's just uh because i don't do meds and stuff so i just kind of had to wait it out i mean i was still like going through the motions and doing stuff i had to do but just really unhappy and and not realizing that that was what I was going through. It's like there's one thing if you get up and you go to therapy and they say, well, let me give you this pill and you need to do this. And then there's that where you're dealing with it. But I think when you're really, really depressed, I'll speak for myself

again. I wouldn't, I didn't really know what I was going through. I just knew that all I wanted to do was go home and go to bed. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think that's part of it for so many people. It's sort of, you don't know exactly what it is. And I think one of the big things that is you don't know if it's ever going to end. Yeah. Which is one of the biggest things that's part of that struggle. Yeah, because you don't know it's supposed to end. I just thought, oh, I'm just being lazy. I just didn't want to do anything.

Like, I had no motivation. I didn't want to post on my Instagram. I didn't want to do nothing. You know, I mean, I'd get up and get myself together because i because my life is pretty uh active and i have a lot of stuff on my schedule but i started canceling stuff and a lot of like invites you know like my friend's birthday i just didn't want to go you know what i mean yeah so you kind of just don't know that that's what you're going through you just you just don't want to do anything yeah yeah so as as we sit here today i mean you're on through. You just don't want to do anything. Yeah. Yeah.

So as we sit here today, I mean, you're on the road. Weird times for sure. Oh, my God. But when you think about what's really exciting you right now, what is it that you're really excited about? I'm really excited about putting out records. I got a lot of ideas. And as much as I despise what what the record industry has

done to itself i'm excited about just exploiting that and just putting records out and because it has allowed you that you can now put out a record whenever you want i can put out like we can make this a record like a conversation and we can put it on spotify done and say here's a record and we could put it on Spotify. Done. And say, here's a record. And we would get hits, for sure. We'd probably get a lot. And so that's exciting. So that's kind of like I woke up today and I just want to go to the studio because I got this idea.

And the way things are now, I can put it out next week if I want. So I'm excited to see what that's like, just to put records out. Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. So next week if I want. So I'm excited to see what that's like, just to put records out. Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. So let's come full circle. We're hanging out here in this container with Good Life Project podcast.

Yeah. And so if I offer up this phrase, to live a good life, what comes up for you? To live a good life, good food. And I think it's important to really love someone and I don't say that to be corny but it's necessary to feel that you know for somebody

and to have that come back to you some kind of way and what else I think a good life is seeing the world it's good to see what's around you and what the world has to offer. Because you get so inundated with what's going to be taken away from you. You know what I mean?

And what you can't do and what's not safe. You know, because everybody says, be safe, be careful, so automatically you're stressed because it's like, oh, something might happen. You know what I mean? You're like, nobody ever says this, you know, go out and do whatever you want. You know what I mean? I go out and laugh a lot. Nobody ever says that. They say,

oh, you know, don't touch anybody. So, I think it's, I think good times are important. I think it's I think good times are important I think it's very important to have fun and like just you know use up your moments

you know what I mean like just make your days count regardless of what everybody's telling you be scared of or what not to do just know that your day is big. Even if you're all laying in bed all day, it's a big day. What are you going to do while you're in bed?

Do you know what I'm saying? Or if you do want to not go out because you're afraid of getting sick, then what are you going to do while you're holed up in your house? Do you know what I mean? That's a good life, Just like, eating up, you know, what you got. Yeah.

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