Good Life Project - Mansi Shah | Reclaiming Your Narrative

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

My guest today, Mansi Shah, spent years building a stunning career as a lawyer in the fast-moving world of Hollywood entertainment, working with some of the most iconic storytellers in the industry. But, behind her success as an entertainment lawyer, a lifelong yearning was brewing. She felt deeply called to not just help others tell their stories, often built around narratives that didn’t resonate with her background, but to actually be the storyteller, herself. And, to focus her lens on bringing the authentic immigrant experience, her own personal and family story, to a wide audience. So, she started writing her own stories, eventually penning the book that would become the groundbreaking and beautiful new novel, The Taste of Ginger. But that journey was anything but easy or linear. Over the 10-years since she started writing, the story and the book took countless turns. The early manuscript was, in fact, rejected by the very editor who, years later, would circle back to acquire and then champion it. Along the way, Mansi’s lens on what the story could be and needed to be, and how she needed to honor her creative impulse, commitment to advocacy, and desire to speak to people who were so often left out of the popular storytelling narrative, evolved and became centered in a way that only time and reflection could have crafted. We explore all of this in today’s conversation.You can find Mansi at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Dr. Sayantani DasGupta about writing stories that expand the landscape of popular narratives.My new book Sparked.Check out our offerings & partners: Outschool: Inspire kids to love learning with Outschool classes. It's 100% fun, live & teacher-led. Explore over 100,000 topics and learn in small groups via Zoom. Perfect for ages 3-18. Join for free. To learn more about all Outschool has to offer and to save $15 off your child’s first class go to Outschool.com/GOODLIFEParachute: Premium quality sheets, towels, robes and more. Like nothing you've ever felt. Make staying in more comfortable with our modern home collections. Responsibly manufactured. Visit ParachuteHome.com/GOODLIFE for free shipping and returns on Parachute’s very comfortable home essentials.Bean Box: Give the coffee fanatic in your life an unforgettable coffee-tasting experience with Bean Box. Our coffee is expertly curated and always fresh, with fast delivery and free shipping. Order today at beanbox.com/GOODLIFE and get 15% off purchases of $40 or more. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was a voracious reader as a kid. I would read two books a day. I remember going to the local library. You were allowed to check out 10 books at a time. I always got 10. The amount of entertainment and development and growth that you can get from books at a library, I mean, that was a huge part of my childhood. My guest today, Mansi Shah, spent years building this stunning career as a lawyer in the fast moving world of Hollywood entertainment, working with some of the most iconic storytellers in the industry. But behind her success as an entertainment lawyer, a lifelong yearning was brewing.

She felt deeply called to not just help others tell their story, often built around narratives that just didn't resonate with her background, but to actually be the storyteller herself and to focus her lens on bringing the authentic immigrant experience, her own personal and family story to a wider audience. So she started writing her own stories, eventually penning the book that would become the groundbreaking and beautiful novel, The Taste of Ginger. But that journey was anything but easy or linear. Over the 10 years since she started writing, the story in the book has taken countless turns. The early manuscript was in fact

rejected by the very editor who years later would circle back to ask for and acquire and then champion the book. And along the way, Mencius lends on what this story could be and needed to be and how she needed to honor her creative impulse, her commitment to advocacy and desire to speak to people who were so often left out of the popular storytelling narrative that evolved and became centered in a way that really only time and reflection could have crafted. And we explore all of this in today's conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. So it's really fun. We're hanging out having this conversation right now, literally on the eve of the release of your first big book. And I am deeply fascinated in the journey that brought you to this moment in time, in addition to the book itself and the story, because it relates in so many ways to the story that brought you here. Let's take a step back in time.

Born in Toronto, but raised, it sounds like, across a range of tiny towns all over the Midwest US. What was going on there? Yeah. So we left Canada when I was four. So I have some very early memories in Canada, but we left Toronto and we moved to a tiny town with a population of 5,000 on the Oklahoma, Texas border. So growing up, I lived everywhere for five years and it was my dad changed jobs. And so when we left Oklahoma, we then went to Hannibal, Missouri, which was a thriving metropolis of 18,000 from the 5,000. It was the boyhood home of Mark Twain. So everything about that town was Mark Twain, this and that. I know an insane amount

about Mark Twain. So we lived there for five years. And then from there, we moved to the suburbs of Chicago where I had a lot of relatives and cousins. And so it was my first time. It was still one of the more outskirt suburbs that we moved to. And so it was still a pretty white community. Like there are parts of Chicago that have a lot of immigrant communities and a lot of Indian people, but where we lived was not that. It was sort of a continuation of Oklahoma and Missouri. And so I went to, when I went to university, I went to University of Illinois for my undergraduate. And it was the first time in my life I was around Indian people who weren't relatives or family friends. And so it was, you know, I think that whole journey was very

interesting. So I finished university. I went on exchange to Australia. I have this insane need to travel. And I don't know if it's because we moved so much when I was a kid that I get itchy feet and can't stay in one place. So I went on exchange to Australia and I moved to LA for law school. And then when I hit the five-year mark in LA, I think my body said, oh no, you're not allowed to be somewhere longer than five years. So I moved to London. Um, and then, so I feel like as an adult, I started moving to what I call cool places. Um, so I moved to Melbourne, Australia, I moved to London and then I came back to LA and I've been in LA for the longest stretch I've been anywhere in my entire life. Um, so, So, so that, and I think as I, as I've been in cities now for most of adulthood, I really, I'm, I'm just someone who craves knowing the world myself. I've done

your sparkotype test. I'm a Maven and I'm such a Maven. I'm a Maven advocate. And that is me 110%. But I think I had that in me and I just want to understand the way the world works because I grew up in such a different way from the way I'm living now as an adult. I was also a psychology major, so I have to overanalyze and overthink everything. And so, you know, I was so curious how that shaped me. And so that's what, a lot of that is what got poured into the book, is this belonging and identity. And the main character in my book is different from me in the sense of, I have her born in India and living in India until she was seven, because I wanted that story of someone who once belonged and knew what that

felt like to lose it, sort of more what my parents experienced, although they experienced it, they came over as adults. And I realized for someone like me, I have never belonged. I have always been an immigrant, whether it's Canada or the U.S. You know, I have never been in a predominantly Indian society where belonging was given for me. And so I really just wanted to explore that idea because it's common for a lot of people. It's not necessarily common for me exactly, you know, parts of it are, but all of that, it's definitely the taste of ginger, like my life story, life story of cousins, my parents, like so many people has woven its way into that. Yeah. So we need to unpack a whole bunch of this. It's interesting. So you choose a character to write about when you finally

make this big jump to writing a book that starts with a sense of belonging, is in a culture where they are part of that culture. And you describe yourself as never having had that literally to this day in your life. When you're growing up, Indian family, Indian kid, bouncing around small towns in the USA. What's that experience like for you as a young kid? You know, it's interesting. I grew up knowing I was different. There were things about me, my name, my diet. You know, we grew up with a Hindu vegetarian diet. So when you went to school, you were the kid that had different food and things like that. And so it's interesting because I compare myself to my cousins a lot, like who grew up in the suburbs of Chicago and had a big Indian community. And in some ways, my brother and I stayed a lot truer to the culture because we didn't see any other Indian

kids doing anything different, right? So we only had ourselves and our unit. And so that was all we knew. But we knew that we were different. And so I think there was definitely, you wanted to blend in. Like, I couldn't do anything about the way I looked. I couldn't do anything about the way I looked. I couldn't do anything about my name. I guess I could have done something about my diet, but it was one of those things where

I remember thinking to myself, well, if you're different in all these other ways, what does it matter when it comes to the food? But I remember my parents were actually very aware of the fact that we were going through these differences. And so I remember my dad saying to me as a kid, if you want to eat meat, we'll let you eat meat. But mom's not going to cook it. We'll take you out to go eat it, which seems very fair. You know, it seems fair that my vegetarian mother shouldn't have to cook meat for us. And for both my brother and I, we were given the choice and neither one of us ever took it. And I know for me, it was just, here's another thing that makes you different if you don't have a strong desire to do that. Like, I think for me, the cost benefit was it's not going to help you

blend enough. And so it wasn't worth doing. But I think there was, like, I was quiet as a kid. I was the person in the back of the room. I didn't raise my hand. I was, you know, that sort of model minority from early childhood of get good grades, work really hard, do what you can to fit in. And, you know, we always had friends. I didn't have, you know, there, there are certain small things that come up as you are different going through these. And I think as an adult, you look back and you sort of think about microaggressions and things like that. But as a kid, you don't really notice them. And you, you know, you're in small towns. There's only one school. Like these are places where, you know, everyone was together and there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of diversity. It was me. Like in my grade, I was always the only

Indian person. I didn't have an experience where there's somebody else and there'd be maybe two or three black kids. And there was one Filipino girl in one of the towns and there was Chinese guy in one of the towns and everything else was, you know, very white culture, very Midwest, very American culture. And so I think we, I certainly did what I could to just be a part of that. But I know for myself, it's being a part of that meant giving up a part of something else. And it wasn't, if it's possible to do both, I didn't find, I personally didn't find a way to do both successfully. Yeah.

I mean, it's really interesting the way you described that you thinking about the trade-off sort of like, okay, so if I do this, it would give me this, but then in your mind saying it wouldn't actually give me enough, like it wouldn't let me sort of quote into the culture or wouldn't let me, whatever the goal was, you're doing this sort of cost benefit analysis of, but I know there's going to be a pain associated with giving something up that is a part of me and my family. And I need something, if I'm going to say yes to surrendering that, I need something bigger back. And you never sort of like hit that point where you said, I'm going to get that something bigger back.

So it sounds like you just kept holding onto the traditions and the culture. I'm really curious also, because in the nature of the way you describe it, sort of every five years dropping into a new town, I've heard this from friends of mine who grew up in military families where they had a similar experience, but it was a shorter, usually every two to three years. And they would describe it to me as they would drop into a new place and they would literally try on a new identity. Like, Ooh, you know, like I really struggled this way when I was in this place and people very quickly perceived me as, Oh, you're that kid, you know, with this

identity and these qualities. And they didn't want to be that. And they, they intentionally, when they dropped into the next place, they said, oh, I'm going to try on something. I'm going to step into this with a different set of perceptions and identity. I'm curious whether you did any of that on that five-year cycle. That's really interesting. And I don't know that I've thought about it that way. But I think about when we moved to Missouri, I was nine years old at that point. And I just think about, like, I often remember the lunchroom or that time before the bell rings for the first session, like when you're hanging out in the hallway with people or you're in the lunchroom. Because it's really, I mean, that's, to me, the lunchroom was a social battlefield, right?

That's where you really have to fit in, like being in a classroom and answering questions and doing homework. That's one thing, but it's really, it's the social part that you're fighting against. And I just remember, like my parents did as much as they could to make things easier. And I remember when I got to Missouri, so in Oklahoma, we used to take lunches. And my mom would pack us food, and it was often Indian food. And it was, for me, I was one of those kids, I love eating Indian food. It's still my favorite thing to eat. I wasn't, oh, I don't want to eat this.

But it was, I don't want to eat this thing that makes me look different. And so when we moved to Missouri, because we are vegetarian and that normally wasn't part of, you know, a lunch menu back in the late eighties, certainly in those places, like they had talked to the school and the school was willing to do an accommodation and, you know, make the vegetarian meals. And even that, so that was one step. But I remember there were times when, depending on which of my friends I was standing with, like I was too embarrassed to tell the lunch lady that I had the special meal. And so I would, you know, grab something small, like a piece of fruit or whatever. And I would often say, oh, I'm small, like a piece of fruit or whatever. And I

would often say, oh, I'm not hungry to my friends. But you just didn't even want to do that one step of saying, oh, I need to go do this one thing that's different. And then when we sit down, I'm going to have the food that's also different. So I remember my parents then talking to the school saying, well, she's not getting the lunches. And the lunch lady correctly had said, well, she's not asking for them. So yeah, I think there were different things that I would try. And I think the one thing I never tried doing was changing my name. And so like Americanizing my name or, you know, coming up with a nickname. And I know a lot of people who did that, a lot of people who do that to this day. But even now as an adult, most of my friends who have, you know, not a mainstream name

have come up with what they call a Starbucks name, right? Just to get it on the coffee cup. And it, well, I don't drink coffee, so it's not a daily problem for me. Maybe if it was, I would have behaved differently. But whenever I've had to do a food truck or whatever, I just give them my actual name. Like I tried doing a fake name every now and then, but I don't respond to it. And so I forget it's me. And so I've just gotten to the point where I'm used to saying my name, spelling it, and so I forget it's me. And so I've just gotten to the point where I'm used to saying my name, spelling it, and then generally spelling it again. And that's kind of how I

move through life. But yeah, there's, I think now as an adult is when I'm most comfortable. Like, I think it's, you get into your late thirties, you get into your 40s. I think it took me that long to appreciate and understand everything that got me here. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me how to fly this thing. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. As you shared, you end up diving into academics, pursuing law. I'm curious, was you saying yes to pursuing a career in law, something that was driven primarily by your own interest or by expectations? It was my interest. So when I was nine years old, I wanted to be a writer. And I remember my fourth grade teacher let me write. We were supposed to write a short story every week. And I went to her and said, can I write a novel and

write a chapter every week? And she said, yes. And that's an example of a teacher just really doing the right thing and encouraging someone. And I was 12 when I said I wanted to be a lawyer. And I come from a very science-oriented family. So my brother is a pediatric cardiologist. My dad is a chemist. My mom is a microbiologist. So even being a lawyer is different. It's a totally different skillset. But I remember, especially going through the moving and things like that, like I remember as a young kid, my parents talking about and dealing with discrimination that they felt in the workplace. And so I think as a young kid, I always gravitated toward books and words and, you know, I wasn't a fan of blood. And so, you know, doctor was probably not going to be in my calling. But I

think I saw that one of the things that made their immigration journey difficult was not having an appreciation of the law. And I think I convinced myself that a career as a lawyer meant that you could combat some of the injustices better if you had an understanding of the mechanisms that you could do more with it. And so I decided that at the age of 12. And now as a person who's been practicing law for nearly 20 years, I think you also learn as you become a lawyer. And I forgot, there's a famous quote, and I'm going to probably butcher it a little bit, but it is, you know, there's justice and there is law and rarely do the two intersect. And so I think as you go through the profession, you start to realize that, that the systems, especially in the climate we're living in now, the systems are really not set up for justice or at least not justice for everyone.

And so I think that's become kind of something I really focus on as a lawyer on the side. So when I was I worked on a death penalty case in Alabama as pro bono work. A couple years out of law school was really devoted to that. And then as I continued going through my legal career, and I don't know if it's you, you become more aware of that distinction between justice and law. And I just really felt like if you want to impact change and reach people, I realized that was writing was a better vehicle for that. You're able to reach more people.

You're able to say things with fewer rules and there's a lot more reach. And so I, you know, advocacy has always been a big part of who I am from even when I was a kid, right? I was the quiet, polite disruptor, but still a disruptor. If I saw an injustice, I wanted to fix it. And I would meticulously try to figure out the best way to do it and see what I could get done. But I think that's been a big part of my learning journey, is I do care so much about injustice and about people feeling seen and understood. And I realized

the traditional legal career doesn't do that as well as other mediums do. So I'm curious, because this impulse shows up really early in your life, and you're doing the thing regardless of whether you're a lawyer or whatever, it's just the way that you're wired. When you step into the law, the main part of your career has been around entertainment law, which is really interesting, right? Because you're involved in working with people who are telling stories across all different things and especially in big entertainment business. And you've got this underlying impulse to advocate for the stories that you find very personally relevant and important to you. So, you know,

it's, it sounds like I'm wondering about the tension between those that would sometimes come up. Yeah, absolutely. And, and it is, it's funny because storytelling is a through line for me, right? It's in the law as a child, all of those like storytelling was critical to me. And so I was really excited to be a part of that as my legal career moved into that. But the thing, as I got older and as I started looking more, you know, more at the world, you know, with the eyes of someone who's, you know, not in her 20s anymore, you realize I think Hollywood has shaped public perception around the world in so many ways. Like whatever, I'm an avid traveler. I've been to over 70 countries, six continents. I'll hit up a bunch more.

But no matter where you go, American television and film is present. And it's not the reverse. We don't have every country's content here, but Hollywood is everywhere. And I think I realized, and it's changing, everything is slow change, but it is changing a little bit where I realized and it's changing everything is slow change but it is changing a little bit where I realized that the stories that I grew up with that just didn't reflect me didn't reflect my experience didn't reflect my parents experience and I wanted more of that you know I wanted to figure out how I could help more of that. And we do, you know, I work for a studio that is championing those things, but it's, you know, they're so systemic and so deeply rooted. It's hard, you know, it's not that you're going to flip a switch

and suddenly everything we put out is going to be, you know, people of color or groups that have been marginalized. But there's more and more of that, which is nice. But it is, it's a tension because I'm working on all these stories that are being told, that are being told about experiences that are entertainment to me, but not personally relatable. So yeah, it definitely has been a tension. And I told myself, when I set out to write The Taste of Ginger, I said, I'm writing the book that I wish had existed for me when I was younger and was trying to figure out my identity and who I am. And I look at, you know, there are young people in their 20s now who are reading that book, who I've heard from. And I think they're so lucky. They have so many, and not just mine, they have a lot more choices. There's a lot more that they can do. But for me growing up,

I remember that Jhumpa Lahiri's The Namesake was, you know, the original Indian American author book. And I was 20 when that book came out, you know, and so for people who, and it was the only one for a long time, it wasn't until I would say in the last two, three years, I'm starting to read books by Indian authors. And for the first time I'm reading, I've read a couple of books by Gujarati authors, because India, again, it's a big country and we're all very different and there's so many different cultures within it. And so, you know, I was in my late thirties, maybe, maybe already 40 by the time I read a book that actually reflected my words and my food and my customs, which are different from someone like

Jhumpa Lahiri's who's not Gujarati. Yeah. It's so interesting also, right? Because you have, so you've got the industry of law, which, and you're like raising my hand as a very, very past life lawyer, like at this point in my life, which is in no small part focused on protecting against everything that could possibly go wrong. It's about minimizing the downside. It's like about anticipating everything that could possibly happen that would not be in favor of like generally your client or whoever you're representing and then protecting against it. And that often leads to weird outcomes. But then you have an entertainment

industry. And I'm really curious what your take on this is because I only have a lens on it from the outside in. You have an interesting inside out lens. From the outside in, it feels like the last sort of like generation in the entertainment industry has started to model the decision-making process of law, which is that instead of saying like, let's create the most amazing, cool, let's

provoke, let's take and make, let's push people to think differently about themselves and the world. It's sort of like, let's figure out how to minimize risk. Let's make creative decisions based on minimizing risk as the first pass. And then after that, let's see how much we can push the envelope with the message and the story a little bit, but always within the bounds of making sure we've got the downside covered and we're not going to lose X, Y, and Z. And it's really interesting because I see that as it makes total sense to me in the practice of law. But when you're talking about an industry,

which is in no small part, you know, claiming and telling the narrative of the human condition and has a role in inviting us to push that narrative, that feels like a disaster in waiting for me. Yeah, that's actually a really interesting perspective. Yeah, it is. At the end of the day, it's a business, right? All of these things are businesses and everything comes down to money. But I think you're right that, and especially, you know, pandemic, everyone is losing money. So these last couple of years, I think that's obviously a big focus too, but it is, there's so much power Hollywood can wield in its storytelling because the reach is so wide. But I think you're right that there is a little bit of a risk aversion as you move through it because people are trying, I think at the end of the day, it's

about money as many things are, but it is, there is the pushing of the day, it's about money, as many things are. But there is the pushing of the envelope, like you said, and it tends to be partnering with the independent film companies and things like that. But it's something like Minari that came out. I don't know if you watched that, but it was a beautiful film. But it's, I mean, it was a beautiful film, but it's the one, you know, it's, there's not 10 minarets that have come out in the last few years. Um, and it did really well, but I think there is still a reluctance. I know, I know even in my journey as a writer, some of the, you know, it took, it took me a long time to get to publication. And some of the feedback I had gotten over the decade that it took to get here was I

would always get that people like the voice and they like the story. But occasionally I would get, oh, I just signed an Indian author. Or I just, you know, had a book like this on my list. And we were kind of living in a time where there could only be one. You know, you couldn't have seven Indian authors on your list. And so I would get that type of feedback on my own book. But I think that same concept holds true. Like, you can have a Crazy Rich Asians, you can have a Minari, but are you going to have 20 of them? But you can have 20, like James Bond movies or Fast and Furious or, you know, other things. But I mean, my hope is that the industry continues to evolve. It's gone through a lot on a lot of different fronts

in the last few years. But I do think it wields tremendous power to shape how people view, you know, marginalized groups, whatever they may be. You know, we just don't have a lot of stories in those areas. You know, even just dealing with things like tinnitus or, you know, I have a cousin who's, you know, who struggles with his eyesight and is very young, you know, at a young age. You don't see a lot of that type of story. But I think that seeing those types of stories really does connect people and bring them together and make these things that seem scary not so scary. And I mean, my hope is that all of this continues. I think the publishing world does a better job of putting those stories out right

now, but it's higher volume. So they've got more opportunities to do it, but then those books aren't always pushed as much as more mainstream books. So, you know, there's, there's sort of layers to everything all along the way. Yeah. The Apple watch series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple watch ever making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple watch getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So when you start working on this book and you're saying to yourself, all right, so I have my main gig. You know, I'm a lawyer. I'm doing this thing. And at the same time, that writing Jones never leaves you. And as you described, you start to

think, well, maybe if the advocate side of me, like the side that really yearns to create a difference and address issues that matter to me, writing is the way to actually make the bigger difference there rather than sort of pure advocacy through the more traditional channels. I'm curious about that also because you could have taken that impulse in a lot of different ways. And the thing that you chose to do was literally spend a decade writing a novel. Yeah. I'm curious about that choice. I had, and I think you can't explain it, but I have always been drawn to books. I've always been drawn to that particular medium.

Because the other thing for me is I like to make life harder for myself because I like books. If I'd written screenplays, I know a lot of people. You know, I know a lot of representatives in that area who would take my call. I don't know anyone in the publishing industry. So my publishing industry journey was slush pile. If I pursued screenwriting, I could have made life a lot easier for myself. But the book was the passion for me, and it always had been. I think it goes back to I was a voracious reader as a kid. I would read two books a day. I remember going to the local library.

You were allowed to check out 10 books at a time. I always got 10. My poor mother, I would finish them in five days. So she would have to take me back. We couldn't even get through an entire week. And she really encouraged my love of reading. But I think also as an immigrant kid, money was not plentiful at various points in our journey. And I think I am so grateful for libraries in this country and anywhere else that they are. But the amount of entertainment and development and growth that you can get from books at a library, I mean, that was a huge part of my childhood, where, you know, if you were feeling like you didn't belong, if you were

feeling alone, like I could retreat to these characters and these pages. And as much as it was a hassle for my mom to take me to the library that often, it was, you know, a free resource that I got a lot from. And so I think that has always been a part of me where it's like in some ways, books, I don't know if saying they saved me is too dramatic, but they were such a big part of my childhood. And I just knew that for so many immigrants, immigrants are constantly still coming over and that the journey that I had, it's not ended, it's starting for people. And I just thought if that person, that little kid me, or that teenage me can pick up a book like this, because I never could. So I think that's one of the main reasons the books were there. It's just, it's been a lifelong love, but it was also access. It was the thing I had access to,

like we couldn't afford movie tickets or things like that, or even buying books a lot. You know, I remember being that kid in school and that, you know, that Scholastic magazine comes out and, you know, everyone in class is ordering their books. And, you know, I think I got to order one or two books when I was a kid, but I read thousands of books from the library. And so I wanted to make something that could reach the type of person that I think probably needs to read a book like this, or it's probably going to resonate most with a book like this. And it's something that can be sitting in a library someday. Yeah. It's not just your younger self. It's the today version and the tomorrow version and the next day version of that younger self. It's the today version and the tomorrow version

and the next day version of that younger self, knowing how impactful the form was. But it's so interesting, right? Because like you said, you could have cut the line if you decided to write the identical story as a script, as a screenplay. I mean, literally you're in an industry where you could literally hand it to the person that thousands of others would do anything in the world to have access to. You could have just texted them and said, hey, I've got something cool. Can you take a look? And they would have said yes. And you chose not to do that, which is fascinating to me because clearly something was so devoted in you to this form of storytelling, to the medium that you literally said no to an opportunity that thousands

of people would trip over themselves to have the chance to do because the actual medium was so deeply meaningful to you, not just like the story. It's like the story mattered too, but also it was that vision of like the kid and the book. Yeah, absolutely. No, I wanted to, I wanted to write the thing that was most passionate to me. I think the other thing too, and I'm sure, cause I know you've gone through the career as a lawyer and have had different lives, but it's this part of my life had to be 100% authentic. It couldn't be based on expectations or things that make the path easier. To me, this creative journey had to be so authentically me. And for me, that has always been books. Because I think I've had to wear different hats and put on

different personas if I'm in the law firm or if I'm, you know, now working at a studio or just different facets of my life, right? Like at the grocery store, you know, there's different places where I have to act a certain way and can't be authentically me. And for this area, I knew this had to be so authentically me. And for me, that was books and not screenplays. Screenplays would have been, oh, you should do this because it will help you get to the next step and you'll have more connections and whatever. But I just, I needed an area of my life that was so completely me, whether, whether, you know, sink or swim, I can look back on this journey and say, I was 100% true to myself and didn't sort of succumb to any outside pressure. Yeah, I love that. I wonder also how much,

you know, both of us knowing that this sort of the creative process that goes on behind books, it's like, yes, you have an editor. but you write the entire manuscript yourself and then you go through an editing process and you still have very substantial control over what lands in the final thing. Whereas in the TV or film side of things, even if you write the screenplay and then it gets optioned or it gets picked up, you may have almost no control over the way that the story is finally told because it becomes this much bigger collaborative process where other people are rewriting the pages on a daily basis and producing and editing. So the amount of control that you have over what the final form of the story is in a book is exponentially higher than

it would be in more of like a film or a TV based medium. That's, that's a hundred percent true. That's such a good point. I hadn't thought about it that way, but you're, you're totally right in Hollywood. You're going to get layers and layers of notes. Um, and you're going to be told this has to change in order for it to it, to make it to screen. This is what it needs to be. And I think a lot of people, you know, that's a dream for so many people. And I think a lot of people will make that change. You know, they sort of go through the internal, oh, that's not really what I wanted. But you're right. In terms of the editing process of this book, I have a fabulous editor. She has let me,

you know, sort of push the envelope with some of the things that I say in this book that I don't think the reality is I look at this book and it feels like it's coming at the right time. I think if I'd gotten a book deal in 2010, when I first was out with this, I don't think I could have said as much. I don't think I would have had the confidence to push the envelope as much as I did. And I don't think the industry would have let me. But now, because of the climate that we're in, you know, my editor is championing these things that are uncomfortable. And I think there's, you know, in my writing process, because The Taste of Ginger has been

around for so long, I knew it wasn't an unconscious decision for me. It was a very conscious decision when I started writing it in 2009. I knew for me to be successful as a writer, my audience had to be white readers. And so I had to write a book that was going to appeal to white readers. And so I was very conscious from the start in 2009, I knew I had to do that. And so I, you know, I wrote that. It's been through so many different iterations, but as the years passed and as my comfort level changed, and I think as my like advocacy desire grew, those things that were, you know, frankly whitewashed in the story, I pulled out. I started pulling them out slowly, slowly until I got to the point where

the story that's out now is, it's not everyone's story. It's definitely, no book is going to capture every immigrant story, but it's a story that feels very authentic to me and isn't sort of pandering to who I think the audience and readership should be. I hope lots of readers connect with it, but I really got comfortable saying to myself, you are writing this book for immigrants. And if other people read it and connect with it, I'm over the moon, but I'm really writing it for the people, the generations who are coming after me, who are going to have an experience that was similar to mine. And I'm so happy that my editor allowed me to do that. Yeah. And it is interesting, right? Because over the decade that you sort of like, this has been in the works, the climate has changed in really major ways, some for the better, some for the worse, and everything in between. But in terms of not just a willingness to tell a story, but almost a mandate for the industry to get behind telling stories, even if they're not sure they're entirely

comfortable, even if they're like, well, the economics, we don't know about this. There's sort of this, there's a public demand now that says, no, but we need these stories now. And we need you to get behind it. I'm so fascinated by what your experience has been over the last couple of years. Cause so you're working on this book and you're sort of like evolving it as you feel like you need to evolve both for your own personal expression and also to meet the culture and also because you want it to be a successful book.

And then the last couple of years hit, which also happens to be when this book finally gets sold. I'm curious about like the journey in just really it's very recent history. Yeah, absolutely. And so I started writing it in 2009, so well over a decade ago. And I had found an agent early on, had done revisions, never had it out on submission, found a new agent in 2017, I think, then it was going on submission. And I was getting a lot of what I call

like, but don't love. I wasn't getting, this is terrible. Which part of me at that point, because when you've been trying for so long, and I wrote a second book during that time period too, because I thought, okay, well, maybe I think I'm a good writer. Maybe it's the wrong story. And so I started writing a second book during that time. And so I kept getting the like, but don't love, which for me is the motivation that you have to keep going now. If someone had just said, no, this is terrible. She's not a writer. What is she doing? I would have put it aside and I would have said, okay, I tried. It's not for me, but you get just enough, just enough hope that it could happen one day. And so I had, you know, my, my agent's wonderful. She, you know, submitted it and we got so many likes,

but don't loves, I don't know, maybe 40, 50, 60. I, I lose track and including from my current editor. And so in March, 2019, and she had gone, um, she had gone out of her way and said, I'll have a conversation with her, which most people won't do when they're, when they're passing on something. And she said, I'll have a conversation with her, um, about some edits that I would like to see. Um, and so I have that conversation because for me, again, going back to my maven, I'm collecting information, right? I'm trying to, anything to me, information is power. And the more I learn about the industry, I don't know much about it. The more I learn about anything, I can use it to grow. And that's sort of my life philosophy is I want to collect as much information as possible and use it to grow. So I have this conversation with her and she says

she'll look at it again, like a revise and resubmit essentially if I do that. And so I had a long conversation with my agent about whether I should do that because I was finishing up my second book by then. And based on the feedback I'd gotten, I said, I think the second book is maybe a story that is going to be more palatable to people. So maybe we should focus on that. And so I did that. And my agent had said, you know, these revise and resubmit are, it's very rare that anything comes of them. And that all made sense to me. You know, she said, if people know how to revise it, they'll generally just make you the offer and go through the process with you. So then in August, 2020, the world is on fire, you know, in so many different ways. And she calls me and so it's, you know, it's essentially 18 months later, it was August or September. And she says that the editor that I'd spoken to before reached back out again and asked if the project was still available.

And it was. And so I had a very long conversation with my agent because I'm looking at the world around me and I didn't revise anything. I didn't even move a comma. So what is it that made this exact manuscript worth making an offer now that it wasn't worth 18 months ago. And, you know, and my agent was very candid and she said, we don't, we don't see this happen. You know, obviously we're going through a racial reckoning right now. Every industry is going through it. And people I think are looking at the type of content that's being put out there. I think everyone's just sort of looking as companies and looking as individuals, myself included. We're all part of this journey. And so I asked her the types of questions someone like me would ask, which is because nothing has changed and it's unusual

and no one has ever heard of someone coming back after they've passed when you've made no changes. And so I asked her, I said, is this, is this like a racial motivation? Is there a quota system? And is it going to get taken seriously? You know, I had a two hour conversation with her, um, cause I wanted to be so excited. I have a book deal. Um, you know, but, but I said, what, what is this? What is being asked of me to do this? Cause at this point I've now changed inside and I know I'm not going to whitewash this thing at all. So if that's what's being asked of me, it's not going to happen. And I'm better off just waiting and seeing if I write something later. And, you know, that catches fire. And, you know, and I think we both felt that my editor was very genuine about the process and who knows what happened 18 months ago internally. And maybe, you know, maybe it didn't get approved,

you know, maybe she wanted it and it didn't get approved. Who knows? Right. But, you know, I talked to my agent and I said, this is, this is my dream. This is my dream since the age of nine. And if I can publish the story I want to publish, I will then do everything I can to make it a success. You know, there's no guarantees on anything. But so we went through that process, but it really was, you know, for me morally too, it just, you know, with everything that's going on, you know, the weight of everything, all of that, and I look at where I am and it's humbling to me. It's very sad to me, but it's hard for me to not look at where I am and say, I am, you know, somewhat of a beneficiary of these horrible things that have happened because people are taking a closer look at what's going on in these industries. And I'm seeing a lot more people of color getting book deals since that time, which is great, but it's also so tragic and sad of what needed to happen to see that change industry-wide. So it definitely, you know, it was an interesting moment to have gotten the book deal in the way that it came about,

just in terms of what was going on in the world. And I think those are feelings that I'll probably be dealing with for some time. But at least now I'm seeing that the mission I had with the book, which is for people to feel seen and understood, it's early days, but I'm getting that feedback. And so I feel like I've done my job and I'm so happy that I've had the support of my editor and my agent in being able to put out this book in the way that it exists today. Yeah. I mean, it's so powerful. The book itself, the concept for the book itself, the manuscript has had its own hero's heroine's

journey. And it's, it's got to be really complicated for you, you know, because on the one hand, it's like, this is the dream. And it is the book that you wanted to actually put out to the world, you know, like, all the concerns about what do I have to do to make the market quote, you know, like, receive it? Well, you're just like, nah, I'm doing what I need to do. And hopefully like, you know, the market shows up for it. And at the same time, it is after a moment of just profound pain and reckoning that continues to this day.

And God willing, will continue not on the pain side, but the reckoning and the transformation. And so it's to be creating something that on the one hand, you've been working on for, in theory, your entire life, but this particular project, the last decade,

and then having it meet this moment. Yeah, that's complicated, but at the same time, hopeful and inspiring. And what's so fascinating is that the book, it's an immigrant story. As you shared, it's different immigrant story. As you shared, it's different in a lot of ways from you. It's the story of a woman who starts in India,

comes to the US and then is called back. And I won't share any spoilers here, but it's a really beautiful, deeply moving story that also touches on all the different topics and the issues that we've been talking about, but in a narrative way and in the context of her story. And at the same time, we had Liz Gilbert on a number of times. And I remember her telling me when we were talking about her novel, City of Girls, she's like, you know what? Everything you need to know about me, Liz, you'll know by simply reading the novel. You don't need to read my nonfiction to know me. And I feel the same way. And that's my curiosity with this book for you. It feels like, okay, so it's not necessarily your biography in there, but it seems like so much about who you are, what you value, what your beliefs are is woven into the story in so many beautiful and compelling ways. Yes. And I heard your interview with Liz Gilbert, however many years ago that was. And I have to say, I will answer your question, but I have to say, your podcast is the first podcast I ever listened to.

I'm not an avid podcast person, but I was at a point in my life and I was looking for, you know, I was dealing with a difficult breakup and some health issues. And I was looking for something that could, you know, shed positivity into my world. And so I, you know, the magic of Google, it came up. And so I started listening to you all those years ago. So this for me is a very personally fulfilling and surreal experience to even be here talking to you from having listened to you for all those years. But it's funny because I remember that interview very well. And I remember that comment very well because it resonated with me immediately because at that point I'd written two books. And this book in particular, The Taste

of Ginger, I knew while it's not my facts and it's not my family and it's not my story, the emotion, the heart, a lot of that is mine. I have thought about that Liz Gilbert quote so many times when I read any fiction since I heard that on your podcast. I do think about that of what's woven into an author's fiction. I think that's true. I think we convince ourselves, oh, it's fiction. So I can say this thing that's deeply there and I can just hide behind the cloak of fiction. But when you write nonfiction, everyone knows it's you. But I think there's definitely a lot of the essence of that book, the struggle, the identity, the internal angst, a lot of that definitely are things I, the struggle, the identity, the internal angst, a lot of that

definitely are things I've experienced at different points in life or that other people around me have, or just things that I have thought about. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm that person that just really looks the world around and wants to know why it is the way it is. will read, you know, a thousand books. If it comes to that, like, like during 2020, I'm that person that as I'm seeing the Black Lives Matter movement, you know, gaining so much steam, I'm that person that I think in 2020, I read 40 or 50 nonfiction books about racism because there's always more to learn, you know? And so that's who I am. But yeah, I think that there, I think there's so much to be said about an author's real life in their fiction work. I, I'm not going to pretend that I'm not in that book. Yeah. When you've spent so much time on a work like this, and it finally is coming out into the

world, and it's coming out into the world in a moment where it's important, you know, it's not just fun and cool and amazing writing and a fantastic story. You know, it feels like this is a book which could be seen as an important book. When you're in this moment, I'm curious, just on a personal level, do you look at this and say, okay, so now I need to basically just, I'm launching it into the world, I'm giving it life, and it will do whatever it needs to do? Or do you say, I have a dream for this, I have an intention for this, this is what I want to happen with it? Is it more of just a surrender and watch, or I want something for this. I have an intention for this. This is what I want to happen with it. You know, is it more of just a surrender and watch or I want something for this?

I feel like maybe somewhere in between. This is all new to me, this process, right? This creative process is all new to me. And so I didn't know, I didn't know who I was going to be, right? There's, there's the people that say, I'm not going to touch reviews. I don't, I don't know what's in there. They're the people that read everyone. There's different things that come out of this process once it's launched. Right. And so I didn't know who I was going to be, but I was just going to try and go with my intuition and go with my gut. And so I have read the reviews. I didn't know if I would, but I think part of it is the first few reviews that came out were very good and they were exactly what I wanted readers to get and so I had a positive experience doing that if my first review had been a two-star review of someone who hated it I may have made a

different decision but I that wasn't my experience which I'm grateful for and so because I've had good traction I am following it and sort of seeing how it's received. I've gotten a couple emails from Indian immigrants, which those just really touch my heart. That's why I did it. So on the one hand, those emails and that feedback, that's why I wrote it. So I feel like I've already done what I set out to do. And I hope, I hope there's more of that, but I don't know that there's a goalpost, um, that I am trying to meet beyond that. I'm trying to, I'm doing the opposite of my lawyer job and I'm trying to keep this so emotionally grounded, um, and just letting the universe, like I'm a person, it's hard for me

to just trust the universe and, you know, just hope that there's a plan and all those things. Like I'm the person who says, if I work really hard, that's how outcomes happen. They don't just happen because I deserve them. They happen because of hard work. And that's sort of the life motto, if you will, that I was raised with that, you know, I'm sure it comes from my parents. But for this process, I'm really just trying to take it in and enjoy it. And I'm lucky because I had a two book deal. So I knew that there's another book coming out. So there's a chance too. If this goes really awry and things don't work out the way that I had hoped, there's a redemption opportunity that comes through. But hopefully they're just both received well.

But I think for this one, it really was, I cared so deeply about people feeling seen and understood who haven't been. And I'm already starting to get that feedback. So I already feel very, very blessed with where I am. I love that. And it feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think for me, it is to learn who you are and fully accept that and then just be grounded in gratitude. I think gratitude is one of my core fundamental beliefs. And I think for me, it's that. Learn who you are, accept it, and have a lot of gratitude. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Dr. Sayantani Dasgupta about writing stories that expand the landscape of popular narratives. You'll find a link to her episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. We'll see you next time. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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