Good Life Project - Mark Groves | Human Connection Specialist

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

Imagine going to college and getting a minor in ‘you!’ Well, that’s just one of the semi-wild ideas that bubbled up during my conversation with week’s guest, Mark Groves. Mark describes himself as a Human Connection Specialist on a mission to help individuals step into their most authentic, effective, loving selves by way of a little bit of tough love and no-BS relationship guidance. Immersing himself and pursuing an education in the world of psychology after his model of life and relationships feel apart, he’s become a bridge between the academic and the human, inviting people to explore the good, bad, downright ugly, and beautiful sides of connection. And, given the state of the world these days, we could all use a bit more wisdom around how we show up and relate to others. Mark shares insights, ideas, and strategies about being a better human, living a better life, and understanding how to craft relationships that are truly nourishing with a global community of over a million people on his Create the Love Instagram account, his eponymous podcast, and through a growing library of courses, and programs. What I’ve always found so powerful about Mark and his work is that he doesn’t pull punches. He doesn’t hide who he is, what he believes, his irreverence or willingness to poke fun at himself and, really, any other paradigm or system that just doesn’t make sense. He is, in many ways, a truth-teller, and we need more of that these days. You can find Mark at: Website | Instagram| Mark Groves PodcastIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Diego Perez who uses the name Yung Pueblo online about finding peace and clarity in an upside-down world.My new book Sparked.Check out our offerings & partners: Bean Box: Give the coffee fanatic in your life an unforgettable coffee-tasting experience with Bean Box. Our coffee is expertly curated and always fresh, with fast delivery and free shipping. Order today at beanbox.com/GOODLIFE and get 15% off purchases of $40 or more.ZenBusiness: ZenBusiness has helped hundreds of thousands of people get their business off the ground by guiding them every step of the way and making it easier to launch a successful business. Get started today for as low as $49 at zenbusiness.com/GOODLIFE.Come From Away: Broadway’s Tony-winning, feel-good again musical is welcoming audiences back into the heart of the remarkable true story. In the middle of nowhere, one small town showed the world that the kindness of strangers could bring us closer. Come back together at Come From Away. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When we enter a relationship with someone, we assume that they're going to stay the same, but yet we don't want ourselves to stay the same. So it's this interesting sort of requirement. The other person doesn't grow too much or grow too far as opposed to like, how do we make the container that we're creating together a place where both of us can expand and become more of ourselves and thereby the relationship does. So imagine heading off to university and getting a minor or even a major in you. Well, that's just one of the kind of semi-wild ideas that bubbled up during my conversation with this week's guest, Mark Groves. So Mark describes himself as a human connection specialist on a

mission really to help individuals step into their most authentic, effective, and loving selves by way of a bit of a tough love, no BS relationship guidance approach, immersing himself in really pursuing an education in the world of psychology. After his model of really life and relationships fell completely apart, he has become a bridge between the academic and the human, inviting people to explore the good, the bad, the downright ugly, and the beautiful sides of connection. And given the state of the world these days, we could all use a bit more honesty, wisdom, and insight around how we show up and relate to others. And Mark shares the insights, ideas, and strategies about being a better human, living a better life, really

understanding how to craft relationships that are truly nourishing with a global community of over a million people on his Create the Love Instagram account. Go check it out. It's great. Also on his eponymous podcast and through a growing library of courses and programs, what I've always really found so compelling about Mark and his work is that he doesn't pull punches. He doesn't just follow whatever the online personal development or self-help tropes are. He doesn't hide who he is, what he believes, his irreverence or willingness to poke fun at himself and really any other paradigm or system that just doesn't make sense to him. He is in many ways somebody who provides wisdom and insight and also a truth teller.

And we need more of that these days. So excited to share this conversation with you. And a quick note before we dive in. So at the end of every episode, I don't know if you've ever heard this, but we actually recommend a similar episode. So if you love this episode, at the end, we're going to share another one that we're pretty sure you're going to love too. So be sure to listen for that.

Okay. On to today's conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. They've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS are later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. You know, I thought a fun jumping off point might actually be for those who happen to follow you online. And that would be a giant global audience, by the way. You shared something recently that you were engaged.

Yeah. Yeah, we got engaged a couple weeks ago. So congrats. So that's amazing. I'm excited for you. Yeah, we got engaged a couple of weeks ago. So congrats. So that's amazing. I'm excited for you. And I'm curious, you're a guy who has spent a lot of his adult life studying, writing about, speaking about, and answering a lot of questions around the topic of relationships, of love, of norms, of the psychology underneath all this,

I think a lot of the common question that gets asked when somebody sees a decision like this is, how did you know they were the one? I'm actually not interested in that question. What I'm curious about for you, given the background that you have, is how did you know? I'm not even going to assume you did know, what's the thought process for you that goes into figuring out, discerning whether you as an individual are at a moment in your life, your emotional and cognitive growth, where this feels like a really great next move. Well, first I want to acknowledge that the term most of my adult life, I've got to be careful what I qualify as adult, because certainly in the first early part of my twenties was the train wreck

leading up to the desire to do the romantic relational research. And don't worry, we're going to go back to that. So, yeah, you know, one thing that, because sort of the origin story of the beginning of my work was an engagement that ended. And, and so I was privy to how it felt when it wasn't aligned. And, you know, I, throughout my partner and I's, my fiance and I's relationship, we've just uncovered so many beautiful things together in our breaking up that occurred about a year and a bit ago. And then the reuniting and repairing

really solidified that we both are willing to put in the work and do the introspection. And, you know, I just couldn't imagine someone else on that journey with me because I trust every word that comes out of her mouth. I trust every way in which she observes me, even if I don't like it. And I think because so many of, you know, I think of a common vow that people make used to make i don't think they do as much anymore you know they have the one honor and obey with that certainly that one's gone out but the other one till death do us part and when her and i broke up i really started to think about what type of death do they mean do they mean a mortal death or the death of the person that said, I do maybe when they were 18 or 20. And I really started to see that relationships can often become a prison,

like they can become this place where we don't become more of ourselves, or we don't become liberated into our growth and our expansion, we actually hold ourselves back. And our relationship has held that in 1.0 in a little way where we felt sort of codependent and like we had to stay because we loved each other and we cared about each other, et cetera, et cetera. But in that fracturing, and then the deepening in the space where both of us sort of individuated more, I know that the agreement of being in relationship with her is liberating as opposed to imprisoning. And that to me was just, how did I know it felt right? It was like, I just, I couldn't imagine another day going by where there just wasn't a more of a celebration of the sacredness of the space that exists between us. So I hope that answers that the question in some way. Yeah, I think it's just interesting,

because I'm always curious for somebody who literally you spend your so much of your waking hours just thinking about all the dynamics between human beings, like what the inner process is, when you're the human being, and there's somebody who you love dearly like that is a part of this the conversation the interaction the relationship because so often we're really good at helping others navigate moments that we are just incapable of navigating ourselves um i want to take a step back in time. As you referenced, what you're doing now is not sort of like this linear path of a life that just organically led you to this place. Coming up in Calgary, were you actually in Calgary, just outside of Calgary?

In Calgary. I grew up in Calgary. It sounds like a fairly mainstream traditional upbringing, and then you're sort of like launching yourself into the world of business, different sales roles, tech and marketing, rising up the quote ladder. And it sounds like even from the earliest days, I know that ends up being a path that has to at some point die. But I'm curious, when you were deep into it, I'm wondering if being in a sales position for you actually planted some of the threads that continue into the psychological and the relational work that you're doing today. Yeah. I mean, amen to that. I totally agree. I was a pharmaceutical rep for 14 years with two different companies moved sort of up that channel. And a lot of my early studying

was how do I manipulate behavior? How do I get someone to change from one product to another? I mean, I had the book, how to get anyone to do anything. I remember, you know, how to win friends and influence people, you know, a lot of that marketing that was based on understanding how to get people to change? And I was really good at it. And I was sort of obsessed with understanding the manipulation style of it. You know, how do I get someone to experience an emotional, a bit of dissonance so that another product might be the solution to this. And in that part where my engagement ended, I mean, when I got engaged, I was 27, which is sort of the exact moment that you're taught, like get married by 27 to 30, have kids by 30. And if you don't do that, you sort of feel like you're not part of the common narrative and you don't feel like you fit in.

And when I ended that engagement, I stepped out of the narrative for pretty much the first time in my life. I was taught as a kid, make enough money to be a good provider, to take care of a family, have a partner and kids, and drive a nice car, etc., etc. And when I met that moment, I remember thinking when I got engaged the first time, like, I think I'm supposed to be more excited than this. And I started to see, you know, when I eventually ended that engagement, I asked myself, like, how did I get here? How did I get so to a place where I didn't even want to get engaged? Why did I get engaged? Why did I spend money on something I didn't even want to do? And I started to look at that. And I thought, well, I avoided every hard conversation. That's how I got here. And I thought I'm so good at talking about everything but my feelings. Like, that's not a skill set issue. There's something

deeper going on. And so that really did fuel a lot of the early ways in which I started looking at it was for myself. You know, I think that idea that you turn your mess into your message, that was true and continues to be true for me. And I also was lucky enough in that work to really understand clinical trials and science and data and research and studies. And so that helped me sort of lean first in the intellectual part of romantic relationships, you know, the Gottmans and going to all that kind of stuff, and then starting to merge with conversations, you know, from Ram Dass and Alan Watts, and sort of this merger of the psychological with the spiritual, which I think is this beautiful intersection where really humanity meets, you know, in a lot of ways, or we hope it meets, maybe we feel witnessed and

a little cerebral at the same time. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so interesting when you think about you've got this 14 year career, it's, it is effectively in like the metric for that career is, are you effective at convincing somebody to take a very particular action? Um, and very often the metric is regardless of whether it is in their best interest or not, or their client's best interest or not. It's sort of like you're measured on whether that action is taken or not. And for you, that action is fundamental to understanding the psychology of persuasion. You use the word manipulation. What's the difference between persuasion, manipulation, and where do ethics come in? That's a good question. I would say that the difference

between manipulation and persuasion is manipulation gets someone to do something that might not, as you said, be in their best interest or to alter a behavior and maybe have remorse over the choice they make from the altered behavior. I think persuasion can be something that leans someone towards a path that they do it through their own self-discovery. Maybe the persuasion actually comes through new knowledge that they get. I think there is an interesting line, though, that is certainly up for a good discussion in an ethics class. Because marketing, like how do you know when marketing is, you know, there's a lot of talk about that now, it's sort of becoming quite

the conversation about what is ethical marketing. And ultimately, I think if you believe in what you're doing, which I guess that is also very subjective. But if you believe your product does provide value to someone, and you know, I know that historically someone said, you know, I remember learning like nine different ways to close a customer when I was in, I used to work at a Best Buy, but it was called Future Shop. And it was cheese, you know, like I wore a suit to work. I was like 19 in a telecom department. And I remember in the nine different types of closes, like one of them was the assumptive close where you're like, all right, I'll wrap it up and I'll meet you at the till. And there were a lot where I remember hearing the trainer say that a lot of people just don't know how to walk themselves to the till. Like they just, they want the thing and

they just don't know how to step into it. And I think in a lot of ways, human behavior is that way. We know that a choice we're making is not good for us. And so if something can move us in the direction of aligning ourselves with our values, I think that's something that at least feels on a lot of levels ethical to market. But then I think it's all subjective. So I'm sure someone listening will be like, oh, I've got a lot of thoughts on all of this. And they'd all be right. Yeah. I mean, I think the line is so, it's always been fascinating to me. I'm curious someone listening will be like, oh, I've got a lot of thoughts on all of this. And they'd all be right. Yeah. I mean, I think the line is so, it's always been fascinating to me. I'm curious to hear yours.

No, I kind of answer a little bit to you. To me, I look at manipulation as somehow crafting an experience with the intention of having somebody take a particular action, whether it is in their best interest or not. And again, the gray line is always like, who determines that? Right. You know, and then, you know, you know, would persuasion or ethical persuasion, or like, how do you change somebody's mind? Like how, if somebody is, you know, like violently anti somebody's other identity, you know, how do you have an effective conversation

to like allow that person to see another individual's humanity? You know, in my mind, that would be an ethical conversation. You could leverage all the tools that you know, that you learned in 14 years of sales and all this other stuff to try and have that conversation. And like in your mind, you're like, this is, my intention is noble, it's ethical. And yet if you zoom the lens out, you know, like, who's the ultimate arbiter of those things? I think that's where it always gets gray. And it's interesting also, because when you kind of have this moment in your life where, you know, at 27, just everything kind of goes through this massive transformation. And you step into the world slowly of relationships in a very different

way and also understanding how people negotiate their lives together and their relationships together. Building on the background that you had, I could also see how it would have been very easy to step into the space of what a lot of people would consider manipulation in that domain and what a lot of people I think do end up doing in that space. You made different choices. Well, I wouldn't say I made them right away. I started the depth of intimacy. You know, I experienced a lot of heartbreak, a very giant heartbreak when I was 19. And it involved betrayal and all the things.

And when I was 35, I remember talking to this woman named Kelly Marceau. And she said to me, you know, you read all that, you write great things, you teach these things. Have you ever actually let a woman love you? And I was like, yeah, of course, you know, and then I got off. But it was one of those statements that just got said in the right way at the right time. And I do remember after that being like, wow, I haven't actually let a woman love me since I was 19. And I'd actively participated in relationships, but I chose unavailable people, I chose shorter term relationships. And so, you know, initially, from like, 27 to probably 29, I started to really dive into the work, but I didn't see my own blind spots. And then, you know, it probably wasn't until, I mean, the first day I ever started writing about relationships, I was like,

you can no longer be out of integrity with any of your values ever again, as much as you know, you're obviously going to make mistakes. But I realized another thing that was really holding me back. And this was an awareness I had during that journey, this was sort of the turning point, is I realized that I would make mistakes and then not change. I'd repeat patterns relationally. I'd repeat patterns of communication. And I started to realize, like, I had all this untapped wisdom and knowledge from experience and pain that I hadn't turned into behavioral change. And I would call them mistakes, but they really were becoming choices if I was repeating them. And so I made another rule that,

the first rule I ever made was I'd have every hard conversation because I realized I got to that place because I didn't. And the second one was I would always live at my highest level of knowledge. And so as soon as I learned something, I know it harms me or hurts others or anything.

It's like, gotta change, gotta do it now. And that was, I know it harms me or hurts others or anything. It's like, got to change, got to do it now. And that was, I mean, the first one was a hard shift. The second one was like, my integrity took a whole new level of responsibility. In writing, and I sort of see a lot of my work as being like an exorcism of shame. Like I excise what I'm learning about myself and how to be better and share my rock bottoms and then take the responsibility to live what I say, because I really do think that a lot of times teachers we have don't actually embody the thing they say. And that always disappointed me.

And so I knew if it disappointed me about them, it would certainly disappoint me about me. And so it's been something that's important enough to me that it finally made me change. It finally made me become everything that I always knew I could possibly be. And also know that there's so much more to learn and so much more to become.

Yeah. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. When you decide to adopt that rule, number one, always have hard conversations. I think you phrased it a little bit differently, but at that moment in time, when you make a commitment to start having those conversations, like you wake up tomorrow, if it happens to be a day where our conversation needs to be had, you're going to have it. Were you equipped to have it in a healthy and constructive way?

Not always. I definitely teetered in the shutdown defensiveness. I would shut down a lot, like where I couldn't even get words out. There'd be so many thoughts in my mind. My nervous system was so dysregulated. I was in flight, but still present, you know? And the other one is I used to get really defensive. So I'd say that I had the good intention and I wasn't like a super overtly reactive or anything like that, but I had a lot of work to do. And a lot of the work, I mean, that's 27 is 15 years ago. And it's taken me 15 years to become better and better and better at it. willing to learn how to co-regulate with me and take responsibility for their own way of communicating. Because my default was to think it was my fault or I was the one who was in the wrong. And when I finally had a partner take responsibility for their side, I remember

feeling this huge weight come off like, oh, I'm not the only one trying to resolve this. And so, no, I wasn't always equipped. And there's still conversations I have where I have to find new skills and learn more, because I think that's the thing about human relating is, you know, you can always get better at it, but it is our responsibility to be good at it. You know, romantic relationships are a magnifying glass to the things we're not good at. But if you don't have good boundaries or good communication with your romantic partner, you're not going to have them in work. You're not going to be able to handle conflict well. There's something about facing what can bring heartbreak that I think motivates us in a different way.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I completely agree with that. Heartbreak is an amazing teacher, as brutal as it can often be. So when you're making these new commitments and now you're sort of like moving through your late twenties, you could have just as easily said, okay, I'm going to take this moment in time to work on myself, to really get right with myself, to gain the skills, to learn. And also I'm kind of fascinated with how people relate, not just from a sales or a business

perspective, but human to human. Like, how do we love, how do we take care of each other? How do we see each other? You could have said, okay, so this is kind of a cool thing. I want to learn it for myself and just be the best person that I can. But something inside of you said, I actually want to center this. Like this is my work. I'm curious about that process for you. Yeah. You know, doing your sparkotype quiz was so telling for me. Like it just was so accurate. I remember doing it and being like, oh, nailed it. And I was so blessed to have you on my podcast to talk to people about it.

That moment, it started to be that people started to come to me about their own relational things and they would come to me for advice. And, you know, a lot of the skill sets that are due to sales are also very similar to coaching or just conversing. I think it started when I wrote my first ever thing. I just wrote like a update on Facebook about an awareness I had had relationally and my sort of pitfall and then what I'd learned. And oh, my God, it was crazy how many people were like, me too. That makes so much sense. Yeah, I have the same challenge. And I had a friend say to me when I said, I just love the subject of relationships. Like to me, this is the

most fascinating thing in the world and it's the most important thing in the world. And she was like, you should tour the world and speak about relationships. And I was like, nah. Yeah. But in my heart, I was like, yes, that, that's it. And that idea, when it started to percolate, I'd say that moment was just someone else witnessing it, you know, someone else being, and then which was a similar experience I had to the Sparketype quiz,

where I felt very witnessed, like something sort of a validation. And so I think that yearning to be like, I got to share with people what I'm learning. And I'd always been outspoken in my life and loved sharing without anyone asking me to. So here was this opportunity to take what gave me a lot of poor reviews on report cards

and turn it into a profession of sorts. So poor reviews on report cards for doing the same thing as a kid so funny hey i used to get i kind of want i kind of want to deconstruct that a little bit yeah i had this great in grade six i had this report card i still have it because it's so funny and my teacher said to me mark feels the need to give his unsolicited opinion in class and then the next one was, oh, and in grade six,

I can, in Canada, I'm not sure, do you guys go in it? We were going to junior high in a middle school in grade seven. Yeah, it's about the same here, yeah. Yeah, so he said in my report card to my parents, junior high teachers won't tolerate this kind of, you know, classic,

trying to shame me into it. And so next one, Mark has reduced the number of comments. Oh, great. That's second semester. Third one, Mark has increased the number of, and I always laugh at that because I sort of think like what is often our survival strategy, even, you know, to shut down, to be hypersensitive, to be hyper-attuned can be turned into a superpower. You know, it is supercharged when it's a survival strategy, but when it's honed and it's acknowledged and loved, it can become a superpower. In a lot of ways, I think I spoke out in class a lot because I didn't feel like I fit in. It was like a way I

knew I could get laughs and have some level of significance. And then as an adult, I think just that I loved being able to be in a teacher role. I loved to be able to share what I was going through and in a way sort of alchemize our collective shame about not knowing how to navigate relationship. Like when my engagement ended, I felt like a failure and yet I felt free. And that was this weird paradox where I was like, why am I in the midst of feeling liberated? And yet the people I love most are often not all of them, but a lot of them criticizing me or questioning my decision. And that is really where that need to learn came from of like, why do we consider relational endings failures? And so I think you just start to put together all your past and build up,

you know, the desire to share what you're going through to hopefully, I think in a lot of ways, save younger versions of yourself. I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah, I sort of felt that way. Yeah. You know, that's such an interesting question you asked because what immediately jumped into my head is like, why? So the question was, why do we consider relational endings failures? You know, there are certain things in life that we say yes to knowing that there's a predefined endpoint that's supposed to happen. And when you hit the endpoint, it's considered a success college, right? You know, like, you know, like particular things where it's like, okay, so you, you got all your credits, you got boom,

like, that's great. But when we enter things where there's no predefined endpoint and then suddenly it ends, then it is interesting that's really the default way to examine that. It's like, why did it fail? Rather than, okay, this served a really interesting purpose in my life. What can I learn from it? And then move on. And maybe all people who are party to whatever this thing was are actually better off for it if we examine it. Yeah. And to think like if you're no longer growing in a relationship and the other person isn't either. I mean, that's why I always thought of the mortality being, is it the literal mortality or a death of self? And I think it is what can be the first one, but it is generally the second one. If you're in a relationship with

someone who doesn't want to grow and doesn't want to change, and you do, I mean, you are not liberated. Both of you are actually imprisoned in the relationship. And, you know, because relationships, when they end are considered failures, we avoid all the conversations that might end them. But those are actually the very conversations that deepen them there. And they might fracture them, but they'll either fracture it or deepen it. And I would argue that both are a deepening. Both are an expanding. You know, when we avoid telling the truth in relationships, we are missing out on the sacredness. We're not even actually treating the relationship as sacred anymore. And I think in a lot of ways, we've been socialized and cultured to just have a relationship to have it.

So people stop asking us, why are you single? And, you know, that kind of stuff. And you have another anniversary and people go, yeah, you're at 15 years, but you've disliked each other for 12 of them. You know, like that to me is not success. I think relational length can be an indicator of relational success of course but if you're together 50 years and you have no depth or even reverence and respect for one another i would say that is not success in any you've successfully silenced yourself but i also recognize the momentum of human conditioning that says you can't have a voice especially for women that says you can't speak up that makes

men void of emotion and so i think in a lot of ways when you, that says you can't speak up, that makes men void of emotion. And so I think in a lot of ways, when you leave a relationship, you are actually in an act of rebellion and liberation at the same time. And it will cause family systems and human systems to react. I think that's true of any truth that gets exposed. It's interesting how as human systems, we oscillate around the elephant in the room. We all pick up different roles in a family so that we don't talk about dad's alcoholism or whatever it might be. And so when we finally like point to something and say, that is the truth and I'm claiming it, it's like everything blows up.

There's a cool thing about when you burn everything down and I'm not saying I'm not saying everyone should burn everything down, but it can, you know, burning it down can just be a conversation actually, is that only the truth is left. And, and of course that's unique to a person and unique to an experience. Human relationships, man, they're like the most fascinating thing in the world, how much we will self-abandon to be in relationship. Yeah. When you said it, it's not that everyone should burn the thing down. What immediately came down into my mind is what is the thing? And if the thing is the relationship, that's one thing. But if the thing is the facade that stops you from being in true relation, well, yeah, that's a different thing. It's been really interesting, I think, over the last couple of years now, because we're in this moment in society where so many people have been

profoundly disrupted. We didn't know it was coming. We didn't know it would last this long. We didn't know it would be so intense and so deep and so sustained and touch so deeply into every part of our lives. And people are responding to it differently. And some people who are in long-term relationships, it's been interesting to see, I'll sometimes see one person is responding to it by saying, okay, this is like the snow cone is in full blur right now. And I want to see if I can keep it that way

because I want, like, this is an opportunity to just re-examine everything and keep all the things afloat. And then try and see if we can, you know, like move it around and let them land in a way, which is more what I want it to be, what I want my life, my relationship, my world to be. And others are like, how can we just go back to the way things were as quickly as humanly possible? And if you're in a long-term relationship and you have those, these two different states of mind, that can be really challenging, especially right now. And I think it's happening at scale. Yeah, I agree. I think

we're experiencing a collective trauma and a collective anxiety, and we all respond to uncertainty in such different ways. And even know, I have a good mindfulness practice. I have rituals that I sometimes throw out the window when I'm in my most stressed moments. And they're the exact thing I need when I'm in those most stressed moments where my partner becomes more introverted and she's already introverted, but becomes more introverted in these moments. My strategy generally is to become more extroverted and connect to more people. So we have opposing strategies too. And we have to somehow negotiate that. For a lot of relationships, the pandemic has led to divorce because they've had to spend more time

together. And actually the thing that work distracted them from or their extracurricular or whatever it might be distracted them from, it was necessary that they turn towards it because they couldn't leave the house or whatever the situation might be. And I know a lot of people, it's also really deepened their relationship. It's renewed it. It's made it anew. And I mean, that's something about relationship that's fascinating too. It's like when we enter a relationship with someone, especially, I think, when we marry them, we assume that they're going to stay the same. And but yet we don't want ourselves to stay the same. So it's this interesting sort of requirement.

The other person doesn't grow too much or grow too far, as opposed to like, how do we make the container that we're creating together a place where both of us can expand and become more of ourselves? And thereby, the relationship does. You know, it's in this time, especially, I mean, this time is tough for everybody. And you're right, we didn't, you can't see it coming. But it does show us how do we relate to stress? How do we relate to uncertainty? And I think once you've sort of leapt into the unknown, you recognize that certainty is, I mean, usually the birthplace of everything that's great.

I mean, every time I've left a job, the next thing, I mean, was this, and there'll be different iterations of this. Yeah, I mean, I think uncertainty definitely affects people in different ways. And also depending on who you are, we all come from different walks of life with different strange levels of privilege and ability, especially when the stakes are high, you know? But in the context of relationships, it's been really interesting to me to see how the moment is affecting my relationship, my relationship with myself even, my own understanding of what fills me up, what empties me out, how I take care of myself, respect or sometimes disrespect myself.

And then the nature of relationships. I'm incredibly blessed to work with and live with. My wife is my partner in all parts of business and life. So we're around each other 24 seven, you know, and we've been semi-nomadic together for the last year. And as much as there have been moments where it's not the funnest thing in the world,

like we're super fortunate in that we've grown together. And I think so much of it goes to what you were just saying that was so poignant when you said, we expect to be able to evolve and become who we so poignant when you said, we expect to be able to evolve and become who we need to be, you know, like ourselves, but we expect that, that other person to kind of like stay in the form and shape and state that, you

know, like that, that they were first in when we made that bargain potentially many years or decades ago, rather than saying, well, let's both just become who we need to become. And we communicate openly and God willing, we're still complimentary puzzle pieces as that happens. You know, I think part of it, and I wonder where you fall with this, part of it is all the skills and the tools and the conversation and the openness. And then part of it is fortune.

You know, like if you're over a period of decades, if you each individually become the human being that is the full expression, the most honest expression of who you are deep down inside, and you're still beautifully complimentary and living in grace, maybe that happens, maybe it doesn't. Yeah. And can we surrender to that truth? Because I mean, if there wasn't so many things that are conditioned in us about relational outcomes, I would imagine a lot more relationships would part. And I would also say that if we taught relationship skills in school, then there would also be a lot more relationships that were deeper and more honest and more real. And when you wake up to the systematic nature of relationship,

like, you know, historically, marriage was not for love, like it was a container to get more in-laws. And there's a great marriage historian named Stephanie Koons, who writes all about this, and she has a book called Marriage of History. And, you know, when we start to bring in all these other things that we're bringing into relationship, I know Eli Finkel has a book called The All or Nothing Marriage, and he talks about how, like, marriages of today are better than they've ever been. You know, we want more from them. There's just fewer of them that are that good.

And I think if we started to teach relational skills and we started to break relational skills, and we started to break down the systems of relationship, like when you finally leave a relationship, and you feel empowered, and all of a sudden, you're loved by your community for the fact that you made this courageous choice, we would start to wake up to the ways in which systems influence all of us. You know, I was sort of joking the other day, just, I don't even know, I wasn't really joking, but I was thinking like, imagine if the whole goal is to just get back into relationship with land and community. And, you know, I sort of look at the nature of technology and I'm like, technology is incredible, but technology is also a large source of our anxiety

and our depression, and it can be used as a fantastic tool, but it's also a really powerful form of addiction. And so, I mean, that took us totally off course, but I think it's still kind of relevant because it pulls us away from relating like this, you know, conversing. You see people on dates where both people are on the phone or whole families at restaurants where everyone's on their phone and, you know, it's like stay home if that's what don't do that first off but stay home if you're going to yeah that just reminded me of like a couple of years ago we were the whole family went to you know like some beautiful restaurant manhattan to celebrate it was a big event and i looked over another table

and it was another family it was big it was like a dozen people sitting around the table and every single one of them was just looking at their cell phone. And I kept glancing over like every five minutes or so. And I was like in the two hours where they were all there together, clearly there were like three generations that were there to celebrate something. I think there were maybe like a dozen words uttered between them the whole time. That's crazy. And I was just like, what are we doing? And then I'm thinking, well, how often do I do that? You know, like how often do I kind of bury myself in my device when there's someone wonderful, you know, like sitting right in front of me. And

that moment has stayed with me because I think it made me really reflect on my own behavior in a lot of ways. If you're at a point in life, when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology. It's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era,

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Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Mayday, mayday. We we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk the apple watch series 10 is here It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Do you think that we stand a chance when we're not conscious of the effects

of technology on our biology? Man, that is a big question. It's one that's being centered in so many ways right now. When you consider how much is being invested in behavioral design and the design very specifically to maximize engagement time with platforms and technology in the name of revenue, then I become a bit of a pessimist. That said, I'm also not a Luddite. I realize there's amazing opportunities. There are amazing things that technology brings. I mean, we're having this conversation right now in two different countries separated by thousands of miles. I can see you, you can see me, and I feel connected to you. And hopefully when we share this through another set of technologies and media, tens of thousands of other people across the planet will feel connected to this conversation as well. That's beautiful. That's gorgeous. And yet there's

that other side and I get concerned, but I wonder if the solution is less about trying to regulate the matrix and more about investing in cultivating self-awareness on an individual level. Yeah, I agree. It's so well said. The ability to have the understanding that you have a relationship with technology. And if you are not attending to your own emotional stuff, sadness, you know, all the things, you will escape it with technology. And, you know, I think about like, I haven't drank in just about two and a half years. And I went to this retreat with this spiritual teacher named Gangaji. And I remember someone on stage would say, you know, I've gotten sober, I've done all these things, and I still feel like I haven't figured it out. And I remember she said, get more sober. Like get sober from everything that pulls you away from who you actually are. And it made

me realize like how much, you know, I started to look at my screen time use. Have you ever looked at that thing on your iPhone? Yeah, I get like that every Sunday. I get a report and it always is a little terrifying. Right, right. And I started to put limits on stuff because I'm like, oh my God. I remember life without technology and it was so different. You'd play in the dirt with your friend.

You'd be present to the earth. Your hands would be on the earth. You'd be out riding your bike. And like you said, there are so many beautiful things that technology has brought upon us. And also there's the ability to get lost in it and forget about cellular, not digital, but literal space to space and how important it is to our biology. And also with everything that's gone on in the last 18, 20 months, it's like we have to prioritize being in connection, being in person, connecting with one another, hugging one another. And I think there's a real underlying sort of narrative that's tough that we have to bring forward is that we're all sort of being taught that healthy people are biological weapons. And that is a really like, we just have to be mindful that

that could be the narrative we have unconsciously, because we've been taught that people who don't have symptoms might kill us. And that I think as a human system is a really important dialogue we're going to have to repair from, because the mental health impacts of what's occurred are already significant and will continue to be significant relationally. And not to mention all the divisiveness in the world that also exists. And it seems like we don't really have a very good skill set at discussing things anymore and actually disagreeing. And, you know, what's the most important skill you have to learn as a couple, but even just two people, is how do you hold two different truths

at the same time and both of them be right? And somehow intimacy is where you negotiate those truths. It's the bridge that lives between you and another. And if we don't even know how to negotiate two opposing truths

within ourselves, and we all have them, we all have beliefs we hold and we make choices against those beliefs. And so now we're in conflict with ourselves. We have to be able to audit those parts of ourselves, how we're out of integrity with our own values. And I know that we have to discover the ability to navigate those truths within us, then within ourselves and another, but then as a collective. And I don't know what the way out is, but I know that, well, it's these kinds of conversations. The way out is personal work. But I'm curious what you think about that because, you know,

you're so deep in that conversation too. Yeah. I mean, you know, what started this thread with us was you're wondering why we don't teach relational skills in school. Right. I think it's circling back to that. You know, it's sort of like, okay, so we're so focused on domain expertise. We're so focused on specific topics that we feel will allow somebody then step into the working world and become valuable contributors to that world. So that's where education generally lies. At least in Western society, Eastern society, I think it's actually a little bit different. There are very longstanding traditions of real deep self-inquiry and relational styles and deep conversations and

containers for that. But in Western society, it's generally not, it's something where you don't, not only is it not taught, but you don't talk about it in the first place because it's uncomfortable. And, you know, like our way of living is we don't deal with the hard conversations that you said at 27, it was time to finally like stop avoiding. And so I go back to, you know, your, your original question, which is like, what if we genuinely have, what if you couldn't graduate middle school or high school, let alone, you know, like the college education without having taken, not just sort of like the requisite liberal arts classes and whatever you're, you know, if you're specialized in something, engineering or math, whatever it is, but actually, you know, you've got to

have a minor in you and, um, and understanding how to relate to other human beings in a way that actually recognizes their humanity. Even when you see the world profoundly differently, like what if that was actually a mandatory part of the curriculum? Like how would the world be different? I mean, it'd be incredible. It'd be incredible, you know, to think like how lost kids get in technology and then don't develop attunement and the ability to recognize, you know, being able to watch their parents converse and that's how they learn empathy. And then, you know, if. And if we don't take charge of those things, and like you said, teach these types of skills,

it's hard enough for a parent to teach it at home. But I mean, teachers already have enough stuff they're teaching too. So let's just add another thing. But to have it as a course, and I mean, I love what you said, to get a minor in you, like in who you are and how you relate to the world. I mean, you'd have so much self-awareness. And then with that, where do you lack skills in communication? I mean, ultimately, it would teach humility and empathy for self. And if you can get that, then you can be in relationship, no problem. I mean,

as Eric Fromm said, like there's nothing we fail at more than love yet don't try to build the skills to make it successful. And I, there's some sort of interesting thing about being human, which is you're just supposed to figure out how to be in relationship. Like you go through your first couple, maybe you date someone in junior high, high school, and then college, but then you're supposed to marry the person and then just do it forever without ever having anyone teach you beyond the education you got from watching your parents and grandparents, maybe your community, maybe your coaches. And a lot of those people relate in a very dysfunctional way. And now you're supposed to just have the skills. I mean, that's just not even fair to ask of someone when we don't provide

the tools for the expectations we have, just like we expect men to be emotionally fluent. And yet the world severs them from emotional fluency. And there's a whole boatload on the other side too. So, you know, it would radically transform the world. And we already know from the Harvard study on wellbeing that what really matters at the end of your life, I mean, it's your relationships. I would argue they have massive influence, not only on your business outcomes, but especially on your health outcomes. You know, and I think we'd radically change the world. I think we'd decrease sales in pharma. So there might be some pushback. Okay. So I'm going to put you on the world. I think we'd decrease sales in pharma. So there might be some pushback.

Okay. So I'm going to put you on the spot. So somebody comes to you and says, it's an anonymous benefactor who has $10 billion and basically has a huge influence over all societies and populations and says, we are going to create the first ever mandatory minor in you that every kid who graduates college is required. You cannot graduate without going through this. And we've got buy-in from everyone else and I'm funding it all. So what are the three classes that need to be part of the required learning for that minor? I would have, what did you inherit? And you'd look at your family systems and the cultural influences you have, your religious, your media, your, all the things, your family system. When you look up the family tree, all of the behavior patterns,

all the things, family systems work. And then I think the second one would be, what do you value innately? Like really a self-auditing course. We figure out what do you value? And I think a lot of us don't really know what we value or we adopted someone else's values that they told us were important. And I always think of like, just look at someone you admire because someone you admire has values that you hope to have. And I think the third one would be, what do you hope to create? How do you want to contribute in this life? Because a lot of what we spoke about too before, you know, a lot of

people sort of think they have to get certain types of jobs. And as opposed to like actually having one that aligns with what they have purpose in, or even just finding something they're passionate about, as you say, it doesn't have to pay you. It can be something else. And it's great if it pays you, that's awesome. So I think it would be those three things, understanding where you come from, your present, who you are, what do you want to create and who do you want to become? So the three are, what did you inherit? What do you value? And what do you want to create and who do you want to become? So the three are, what did you inherit? What do you value? And what do you hope to create?

Yeah. Man. Like, what did you inherit? Who are you today? Yeah. Yeah. Actually. Right.

And then what do you hope to create and how are you going to create it? Yeah. You know, I love those. I think those are three so powerful ones. I think I would add in there, not so much a prerequisite, but a primer to all of those, which is some sort of experience that gives you tools and practices to deepen into self-awareness. Or I think I'd call the class, how to see more clearly what would be the tools man that that is the universal question i know like you and i both have a um a mindfulness

practice and that has been so essential to me i didn't come to it willingly um me neither many people don't sort of like on my knees, really struggling. And this is like, all right, finally, I guess I'm going to have to just suck it up and do this mindfulness thing. And then a decade later, I've also experienced having practiced and taught everything from yoga to all sorts of Eastern traditions for many years before I actually admitted my open secret, which is that I didn't have this practice myself and then deepened into it. And then since then, there are so many entry points into practices and tools of self-awareness. That would be, I think, the challenge. And I think that's one of the challenges we have with so many people is that, you know,

like you and I go to somebody and you're like, you need to be so much more self-aware. Okay. So here's a mindfulness class, or here's like a really good video, or here's an app where you get to check into it. Go do this thing. Mindfulness is a thing for you. And they do it. And six weeks later, they're like, it's not the thing for me actually.

True. like it's not the thing for me actually true but so the question for me is how how do you create something that allows somebody to taste different entry points into a state of self-awareness um where they can then feel what has resonance and then choose to deepen into it and turn it into what hopefully becomes a lifetime practice. Imagine, imagine a class with that or an experience where it's just sort of like, Hey, it's like the, the sample plot. That's so great. Yeah. Of all these different strategies of how, cause you know, some people will do talk therapy and have their mind blown and other people say didn't move the yardstick at all. And then you have other people who do a somatic practice and all of a sudden they're healing all sorts. You have breath work blows people open. You've got meditation. You've got, you're right. If you could sample all these, which we've all done, you know, like I've gone

through the sampling. The next one on my list is a Vipassana because I'm terrified of it. But, you know, I think if we got that sampling and we just chose like a salad bar, the ones we know, which we've all done, you know, but to have a class that would take you through that would be incredible. Yeah. Imagine like a 16 week semester where every week was a different modality, right? And your assignment, like the only homework was, okay, so here's like anywhere from three to 15 minutes of something to just do for the next

seven days. And then just like note how it, how you feel. You wouldn't be the same person after each week. I mean, it'd be incredible. It would also ground us in, you know, I sort of think of like Carol Dweck's work and how like, if that was just part of the ethos of education, then you actually wouldn't think it was abnormal. Like if, you know, there's some classes where they, I remember going to Wanderlust Festival and one of the teachers at it, their kid was acting up and they just were like, hey, take a deep breath. And it was like a toddler.

And the toddler just all of a sudden starts meditating. And I'm like, whoa, this is, but to that kid, that's just normal life. Like I had a friend who used to go to Wayne Dyer stuff with her parents. You know, I'm like, my parents didn't bring me to Wayne Dyer, you know, but I think if it was in the ethos of the education system, you wouldn't be confronted by it. You perhaps would just, you know, I think we wouldn't often hit so many spaces later in life if we were starting to implement these tools early. Yeah.

All right. Now my head is spinning. I'm like, okay, we can't start another project. Yeah. You're like, how do we create this? This is great. Already overwhelmed with what I have at the moment. I think you could add another one.

Self-aware enough to know that I'm overwhelmed. Okay. Good enough. Good enough. To that file. But yeah, I mean, I often wonder if you had some experience that could plant the seeds of self-awareness. And I love that trip that you offered. What did you inherit? Who are you? And what do you hope to create that would guide people through those three inquiries earlier in life, not later in life? how would the world be different?

I can't imagine it would look like what it looks like right now. Well, I think so many of us, and this was true for me and becomes true for me, it will be true for me again, is we sort of wait till we have to do things rather than we choose to. And I keep trying to move that further back, but there's always blind spots. So you don't even know that you're carrying so much till you actually can't carry anything anymore. And then you realize how much weight you have or how much weight you're holding. And I think that's true for most of us is we're like making choices that are not in alignment with our core values. And we're actually saying, I want this, but we're not choosing our ways towards that. And then that becomes a large source of our anxieties

and our depressions, you know, because we're not in alignment with who we actually say we are. And that dissonance that's caused is then treated by materialism. And it's treated by staying on Instagram and then comparing your life to more people and then feeling shittier, you know, as opposed to just like reclaiming who you are and finally making one or two giant choices to step back into what might be quote unquote, your authentic self. And then realizing that you'll keep discovering that I don't think that is ever something static. No, I love that. I want to start to come full circle. I want to talk about your podcast a little bit, actually, because, you know, so you have a couple of different platforms.

When you decided to start thinking and writing and studying all these different things, you step out into the world and you start writing and you build, create the love. And then you have different courses and you also have a podcast. And it's been interesting to listen because sometimes you share your own thoughts and then sometimes you're in conversation with other people. I'm wondering what is the role of the podcast for you in your, both as a human being, in your ecosystem, because it seems like it's, it serves a couple of different things for you. Well, I'm curious to hear the reflection of what you feel. Yeah. My first place of expression was a blog and then the next one, Instagram, when it was new. So I didn't really know what that

was going to become. What I found that's different between the podcast and Instagram is Instagram. I get direct feedback on everything. And not people who they might stumble upon my stuff, not because they're curious about what I have to say. But someone shared it with them. And then, you know, they might be enraged by it or whatever, they might be impassioned by it. But I do find that the space of Instagram is not necessarily always a healthy space to be sharing creative work. The podcast, what I love is I just feel really safe in that space. I'm having conversations with people like yourself who I admire their work. I'm curious. I learn from you. I learn from them. And, you know, I've always really thought like to just learn out

loud that I'm certainly not everyone's teacher, that I have so many teachers and they all do it in such different ways and if my podcast can serve as a place for that to occur for people to be exposed to people they may have never heard or maybe the conversation I have with them is had in a way that they like my specific style or whatever it might be and then the solo episodes are really more of that sort of postulation and exercising of shame and confusion and sort of processing my own journey and then sharing the processing. I'm sort of like things in that there is a lot more sensitivity to language. And that's really important to learn how to be good with language. But there's also a hypersensitivity that feels like we're a bit reactive to everything.

And so even exploring that has been really interesting to me to like, why do we not have the capacity to even disagree anymore? So I think my podcast serves maybe as a safer space to explore those things. And, you know, you get the odd review that hits you. But yeah, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. And your podcast. And I was thinking back to what you shared earlier in the conversation,

you know, grade six for you. And I'm thinking the solo episodes, it's kind of the extension of that, except you're, you own the classroom. Like you actually literally own the classroom. That's a good observation. I never thought of that. And you're still sort of like processing out loud. Like, you know, it's more thoughtful. You're much more studied and learned it and you have like, you know, a lot of years of your own history behind you but um it's like the evolution of that

thing and then i have a sense that you and i both um you know the conversations are sort of really similar purpose which is the ability to sit down with what i call embodied teachers you know people aren't just writing and talking but actually living something and just kind of like trying to find out like so so what's going on? Like, what have you figured out here? Yeah. What's your secret sauce? That I may be able to know.

Yeah. And that I might be able to share it. And for me, because my primary impulse is the maker, I love that I can then make something from that. I can make a media offering. I can make a business. I can make a brand. I can make a book.

I can create an experience or a moment that people can interact with and it goes out into the world in some way. It moves people, but fundamentally, it starts with me, with my own impulses and desire to learn. It seems like we're similar in that way. Agreed. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So hanging out in this container, good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I just always think of that line to thyself be true, you know, to be in alignment with who you actually are. I know that my life has always felt so in flow when I'm in integrity with what I actually

value. You know, that's what it keeps coming back to, to me always. It's like, I think of a line from Ram Dass, where he says that, I hope that I live a life where the truth that lives within me is the truth that lives outside of me. And whenever those two things are not in alignment, I give a message of both love and fear. And I just, I think that was so well articulated. And so I think to live a good life is to constantly strive to be both inwardly and outwardly aligned. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks so much for having me. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation that we had with Diego Perez, who goes by the name Young Pueblo on mine. It's all about finding peace and clarity in an upside down world. You'll find a link to Diego's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so,

go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work

as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.