Good Life Project - Mark Mann | Capturing Icons

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

My guest today is Glasgow born photographer, Mark Mann, who has built a stunning career, photographing many of the most iconic celebrities in the world, from Robert Redford, Michael Douglas, Iggy Pop, and the Black Eyed Peas to Seinfeld, Rihanna, Queen Latifah, Stevie Wonder, Bradley Cooper, Willie Nelson, and hundreds of others. Funny thing is, Mark pretty much stumbled into photography in the most unexpected way in his late teens, then ended up on a plane to NYC where, with little experience, he found himself dropped into the world of hip hop and music, focusing some of the early icons in the space. He fell in love with the stories people’s faces told and started spending more and more time developing his signature approach to hyper-vivid, close-up, black and white portraits that, in some way, capture a moment, a mood, a vibe or story. But behind the scenes, it hasn’t been a straight line or an easy path. The reality of the photographic life is not an easy one, but, for him, it’s been the source of profound connection and a life of stories that will live in his mind long after the images themselves fade. You can find Mark Mann at:Website : https://www.markmannphoto.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/markmannphoto/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today is Glasgow-born photographer Mark Mann, who has built this stunning career photographing some of the most iconic celebrities in the world. From Robert Redford, Michael Douglas, Iggy Pop, the Black Eyed Peas, to Seinfeld, Rihanna, Queen Latifah, Stevie Wonder, Bradley Cooper, Willie Nelson, and hundreds of others. The funny thing is, Mark pretty much stumbled into photography in the most unexpected way in his late teens, which is a story that he shares, and then ended up on a plane to New York City, where with little experience, he found himself dropped into the world of hip hop and music, focusing his lens on some of the early icons in the space. He fell in love with the stories that people's faces told and started spending more and more

time developing this really powerful signature approach to hyper vivid, close up black and white portraits that in some way, it kind of captures a moment, a mood, a vibe, a story. And behind the scenes, it's been anything but a straight line or an easy path for Mark, as is common in the world of photography. There's what the public sees, and then there is the reality of the photographic life, which is not often an easy one. But for him, it has been the source of profound connection and a life of stories that will live in his mind long after the images themselves fade. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are or later required charge time and actual results will vary

that school was a great place to grow up it really was i'm jewish and the jewish community was a little bit bigger than it is now it's dwindling but um it was great culturally and i mean i didn't really experience any anti-semitism of any notable note we see more in glasgow's like the catholics and the protestants were so busy fighting that once again if you were jewish it's like oh we don't care so i i mean it was it was I thought it was a great place to grow up. Yeah. It sounds like it's funny when we ask all of our guests, it's just like fill out a quick form before we hang out,

just to get a little bit of background. And the bottom question is always, it's something like, is there anything else we should know? And your answer was, I may be in the bathtub when we're speaking. So there's clearly a sense of irreverence that sounds like it's also probably been there from the early days yeah it's funny it's uh it's glasgow banter man you can't there's nowhere else like it you can't get away with anything you know when i go home my friends who i've known my whole life will say so you think you're fancy now living in new

york you think you're all fancy do you you're not and it's just this immediate bring back to earth and it's incredibly grounding but it's amusing you know it's it's funny you just you can't it's just the it's the banter the banter is phenomenal i miss that yeah it's like forced humility at high speed you've obviously been there yeah i mean it's funny i have a very good friend who's um his name is scotty but it's actually not his real name he's from scotland elsa and uh and as soon as he dropped down into sort of you know like the london area which is where he's been Scotland also and uh and as soon as he dropped down into sort of you know like the London area which is where he's been just immediately people started calling him Scotty just because

of his accent and that for his entire adult life now that's his name I hated London I I never wanted to live in London it was oh god London I mean of all the major cities, I've been super fortunate to have been in a few. London just, oh. Only much, much later in life when I was, you know, sent to London as a photographer to do a job and, you know, we could take a taxi from Heathrow and not the subway, you know, the underground and, you know, straight into central London

and into a nice, you know, fancy hotel. And London's quite nice. But my experience from London before was all my friends that moved there had these damp flats in North London. It was so depressing. It was horrible. And to get anywhere took forever. I much prefer Glasgow to London. Yeah.

No, that makes sense to me. Not dissing london but um it's a different place for a while about that um so it's it sounds like for you um art kind of touched down fairly early in your life it didn't show up as photography in the beginning but it sounds like in the earliest days there was something that was there was a an artistic impulse in you. I think so. Yeah. I mean, I enjoyed it. I definitely enjoyed it. And I think I started off by kind of copying cartoons, you know, trying to draw little characters from cartoons. Photography, I had no idea. I mean, photography was just something like your dad did on holiday. You know, it was nothing. And then I really wanted to do art.

And there was two things that kind of happened simultaneously. I had made these sculptures in clay, which I really liked. And I really enjoyed them them and they were great. And then similar, like a similar kind of time, some of my buddies were in Edinburgh at the Edinburgh Festival. And I went on the train from Glasgow to Edinburgh. I must have been about 15 or 14, 15, maybe 16. A bit of a chancer, you know, a bit full of myself. And get on the train and there's one four seat with this very beautiful young lady.

Older lady must have been at least 17 or 18, maybe even 19. Just intriguing looking, I suppose. Now, in retrospect, bohemian might be the term, but I wasn't really too accustomed to this look. I'm sitting down. So I sat down, we started talking and she told me she was studying photography at Manchester School of Art. Oh, that's what I'm going to do. I'll see you there. And, you know, she kind of explained to me about what art school was and what, you was and I'd never heard this from anyone. And I came back from the festival and I went into, I had a very good relationship with my dear art teachers,

one especially, Mr. Marshall. And I said to him, do we have any photography in school? He goes, yeah, we've got a darkroom. I said, oh, great, what's that? And he said, said well why don't we photograph some of your sculptures and then we can make prints of them in the dark room so I said that's a great idea do you have a camera so I had a camera and we we took some photos and then he he's so enthused and he took me into the darkroom before we kind of processed that film.

And, you know, as soon as you kind of, for me, as soon as I walked in and the smell, the chemicals and the red light, it was just a very cool place. I don't think I'd ever been in anywhere as cool as this. And we didn't have any negatives. So he got a sheet of photo paper and I think I'd ever been in anywhere as cool as this. And we didn't have any negatives. So he got a sheet of photo paper, and I think I took off my glasses, and he had some keys or something. We put it on a sheet of photo paper, very Man Ray style.

We shone the light down, and then he put it in the developer. And I just, it was alchemy. I mean, it was just something shifted inside me, and that's all I ever wanted to do from that moment on. My dad's little camera. Started taking pictures with that. Applied to Manchester Polytechnic, to the School of Art. Got in.

The young lady was in, I think, her third year when I got into my foundation course. There was no romantic interlude, but we did remain friends and speak occasionally till this day. That's the start. That's amazing. Do you ever wonder, I'm fascinated with the concept of sliding doors. Hell yeah, man. If you hadn't just randomly first met this woman on the train, and then if you hadn't gone back to school and your teacher's like oh yeah we happen to have a dark room and taking an interest you know like those two just moments that set in motion an entire lifetime of work like do you ever wonder if those didn't happen all the time i still like maybe maybe i'd be able to afford lunch if that had happened.

I was like, wow, could I use my brain to do something that actually made money? No, I do wonder. I mean, if I go back to, I mean, art was my thing at high school. So one of the purposes of making the photographs of the clay sculptures was because if you're going to apply to art school, maybe then, you know. So I think I would have always, I don't know. I really, really don't know. And to this day, I don't even know. You know, as you talk about sliding doors, would I have been better at

something else? I mean, it's not hard to be better at photography, but I don't know, man, it's such an interesting question. It's really, really interesting. I'm fascinated by those. I mean, some people, there's sort of like this slow, gradual progression and a build over time. And then some people, there's like a moment or an experience or a person that just drops down and everything changes. And for you, it sounds like there is this maker impulse in you that was yearning to get, and it would have probably found its way out some way, but the way that it has with you, it's pretty amazing. I kind of wanted to be an architect for about five minutes. So did I, actually.

Between being pre-med and this, I was like, I'm going to go to architecture school. When you get out of Manchester, it sounds like you went almost immediately to New York. Yeah, there was a very painful period in between where a lot of my buddies in school were actually from London or Manchester and you know my buddies from London went back to London and then a lot of my non-photo buddies got jobs right so they moved to London with jobs how am I moving to London man I don't

have like any money I got nothing I've got a portfolio of weird art crap that I've created over the last four years. I have absolutely no idea how to get a job as a photographer. I mean, I have no idea what I want to do. I mean, it was just like, all right, thanks for the education. So I moved back to Glasgow, which which was kind of i mean that's really what i had to do and i also didn't like london but i mentioned that so i moved back to glasgow and i start shipping around my portfolio like calling design firms and ad firms and start to pick up a few jobs, furniture catalogs, et cetera. And I'd been there about two years maybe after.

I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to check. And I'm getting pretty. I've got like a couple of recurring catalog, furniture catalogs that I do a month that, I mean, for me was very well-paid, but enough to afford a rent and all this. And I'm thinking maybe I should buy an apartment and stop paying rent.

And then I couldn't explain what it was, but I knew there was something that was stopping me doing that. I'm not sure what. And then another tremendous piece of luck is that the woman I was with who was an absolute love of my life decided she didn't want to be with me anymore and I just had to she was in London actually so I was up and down a lot but I just felt I had to leave the country I couldn't get far enough away so I had a buddy that was in New York selling diamonds and I called him I said hey can I uh come for a minute he goes yeah come as long as you want

so I planned like this two week three week the first time I went home was two years later or three years later to get my visa and that was it and new york was just mind-blowing i was i got to new york and i think one of the first or second nights i went to party with somebody who i knew from somewhere and all of a sudden i'm talking to this really cool girl called forest who was annie lebowitz's studio manager like oh so you know things happen super fast in New York, but then super slow. So all of a sudden, my portfolio seemed more relevant to the kind of going to see magazines and stuff. And I started to pick up a few bits and pieces here and there. I got an agent, which was bizarre, but I think somebody saw potential. And I got this job

in LA for Entertainment Weekly. And I went out to LA and I had my portfolio, my camera bag, and like two pairs of underwear and a pair of socks, which is pretty much everything I own, plus my passport. Because, you know, I came on vacation, you know, and I did the job and it was great. And we FedExed the phone from the studio back to New York to my lab. And then I knew somebody who knew somebody. And they said, well, I have lunch with this guy. So I drove to his house in a rental car, came out of lunch. The trunk of the rental car had been broken into, camera gone, clothes gone.

Oh, man. Portfolio gone. Oh, no. car had been broken into camera gone uh clothes gone oh man portfolio gone oh no and this was the day where like it was probably all film right so this was there wasn't a digital backup right yeah oh man i know my negatives are in scotland right because you know i hadn't you know most of the work that was in my book was, you know, and my legs are in Scotland. So I get home and I get back to my agent. She goes, like, can you get a new book? And I'm like, ah. She goes, call us when you get a new book. I'm like, okay.

So then, thankfully, you know, there's the silver linings and all these things. I started to assist, and i assisted for two or three years still trying to shoot or four years and i really learned i think more than anybody could have ever taught me about the business and how it works and you know i came up that way a little bit yeah i mean in new york also especially that time so we're talking sort of like late nineties-ish, right? Early 2000s. No, no. I came in 87s, probably 91. Okay. So early, late eighties, early nineties, which was, I mean, it's a little bit of, you know, it's weird to say there's a golden era of photography in New York,

but I feel like there was a season in New York where it was just some incredible, I mean, you mentioned Leibowitz and, but there were also, I mean, there, there were so many people who are doing, really pushing the envelope of what the expectation of photography and what you could do right around that window. You ended up assisting for at least a chunk of time, I guess, with Miles Aldridge. Yeah. I worked for Miles for a while. I'm a great admirer and respecter of his work. I think he's very talented, but it was more an excellent example for me of how not to treat

people. It was what it was, what it was. And I learned a ton. I'll always be thankful to that. But it was like, wow, I can't believe you're saying that or you're doing that and that I think working for a few people like like that made me very different in how I was when I was the boss and I had assistants probably to my detriment actually I mean you know if I did a dollar for every one time my wife said you're too nice you should be harder on these things push back I can't don't have the energy man I just want it to go smooth and it's nobody's fault but mine right I mean it isn't the bottom line with the it's nobody's fault but mine yeah but at the end of the day though I mean what do you have you you

have your work and and you have have the relationships that you build with people, you know? Yeah, exactly. And they both matter. A lot. It's not just the money you get paid for what you're doing that adds up to a good life. Are we supposed to get paid? The classic photography lie, right? Do we get paid for this?

You're right. And, you know, I have great relationships with so many of the people that I came up with. So many of the photographers that came up with me are not taking photos anymore, sadly. But a lot of the stylists are, a lot of the makeup artists. And we're all kind of like, oh, shit, we're all old school now. Yeah. artists and we're all kind of like oh shit we're all we're all old school now yeah i'm trying to remember so around that we've had um danny clinch uh on the podcast before legend because he was assisting for annie leibowitz i think it was right around that similar time and it's interesting to see who's like you said who who's still around who's still shooting what they're shooting and

whether they really substantially change what they're doing. I mean, it sounds like for you, you kind of emerged from this season of really developing the craft and learning the business, and you land doing a whole lot of work for Source magazine. Yeah, yeah. That was crazy, though. How does that happen? Because it's not the most logical sort of like, okay, next step for you. the creative director for a tiny little publication called Manhattan File.

And I can't remember. Oh, yeah, I just went in cold-cold with my book. You know, it was a magazine. It was very much a society magazine. I don't know if you remember it or whatever, but he kind of dug my portraits, and he gave me a couple of commissions. One was Brett Easton Ellis, and one was Jay McInerney, and I think mostly because I had no idea what I was doing, I produced some interesting portraits.

Oh, camera, why are you looking? And I did that, and then he wanted to give me a cover, and he gave me a cover of candace bushnell so right in the maybe the first kind of season of sex in the city and it was huge i managed to get this shot of her lying on the bed and i i had i had no desire for her to get undressed. But she wanted, she said, can we do it naked if I'm like that? I'm like, okay. It was just not, it's not my way.

The more clothes you've got on, the better for me. I'm really uncomfortable. But we did this shot and it was a very, very successful cover for them. It was beautifully retouched and it was a successful cover and then all of a sudden sort of some other things started to happen around that but kukurido went on he called me one day he goes mark i'm gonna be the creative director of the source magazine i'm gonna get you in next week to shoot some stuff oh that's great dave what's the source oh it's hip-hop what's hip-hop i mean I knew Puff Daddy you know what I mean but I didn't really have any knowledge of what hip-hop was the roots the

culture anything so he calls me into this magazine and I'm a little white guy from Glasgow you know I mean I go into the office and it's all like real kind of hip hop people. Hello. And he says, okay, so I want you to go out to New Jersey. It's the year anniversary of Biggie Smalls' death. And I want you to photograph his mom, Mrs. Smalls. Brilliant. What kind of, just do what you do, Mark.

Great. So I did a bit of research. I don't think I knew who Biggie was. I mean, not in a bad way, but it was not part of my thing. So I drive out to New Jersey in a rental car. I don't think I had an assistant with me, just me. And he opened the door and this charming wonderful woman um i said to hear from the source and she goes okay we're expecting you or i'm expecting you and i did these great pictures made some pictures of mrs wallace and uh i'm leaving and, listen, there's some, if you want to hang about, there's some people coming over for the anniversary of, you know, my son's death or whatever it is.

I can hang about for a minute, have a cup of tea, whatever. And then, like, all these people start arriving. And now it's very funny. It was, like, Puff, who I knew, but, like, Lil' Kim came. About three or four other, other like people I should have known but didn't start coming and it just it was like oh this is interesting and I think I did okay because I had no I think they couldn't pigeonhole me as somebody so I'm just my glasgow self you know i'm just myself and oh what do you do oh i'm a i'm a i do rap oh cool cool what kind of rap you know that so i think it was this who the hell is this guy but not in a bad way you know i was because just as a human being i'm genuinely

interested in people and you know i I think that was kind of what was okay and then I started working more and more and more for the source and it was great it was great experience I mean I got to you know all of a sudden like I get a call that I can you photograph DMX like sure um I had done his album cover. No, I'd done something. I'd photographed him before for something. It was like the first time, I think, for another magazine. And I was like, sure.

And he goes, he's not going to show up unless it's you, Mark. So all of a sudden, like every time, it was just these bizarre kind of things that happened that still blow my mind to this day. And the other thing about working for the source was I was there one day. I was in a, I think I was married. I had a brief starter marriage and I was in my brief starter marriage and I'm working and I'm in visiting a creative director and there's a little knock on

the door and this very beautiful young lady comes in in a brown velour kind of track suit top thing she was absolutely beautiful and Dave says hey Mark this is Katie she's our new director of our editor for Source Sports oh nice was, oh, nice to meet you. I'm Mark. And that is my wife today. So that took a long time. But we were friends. But yeah, the Source was magnificent. And then it kind of all went pear-shaped.

You know, through the Source then started coming a lot of hip-hop album packages. And then all of a sudden it was like, all I want to do is stand beside my car I was like well Jay did it you know and it just started to get so and I felt I needed to kind of segue a little bit out of music I was finding it I mean listen I've never turned down a job but I was pushing towards other things and I suppose that's when kind of celebrity stuff

started to happen yeah i mean it's interesting that you know part of what you said in there is that you know there's certain genres certain cultures certain things where it's like everyone has you know there's one shot that becomes iconic and then everyone wants their version of the same shot you know so every cover looks the same every every album looks the same, like all the stuff looks the same. And for them, you know, it's probably a lot, I'm sort of like, you know, I'm sharing in this iconic moment, but for you as somebody who's behind the lens, it's sort of like, at a certain point, it's sort of like, you know, your own creative Jones starts to want

more, yearn for something that's out of that box. Definitely. And a hundred percent. And it's very rarely that I'll get my, let my creativity get in front of the fact that I'm getting paid or making photographs, because that is the, to me,

the most important thing and creativity does get stifled but I'm incredibly fortunate in just the team player and being part of it and going and meeting people and talking to people and the experiences are just as important to me as the final image I know a lot of photographers and I may be a little envious of them that is are just so committed to that final image and I'm not I'm not committed like that I'm committed to the experience and doing it and you know and I think that allowed me to do stuff that I didn't necessarily want to do. Does that make any sense? Yeah, I mean, it does. I was working.

Right. I mean, for you, I guess for some people, it's all about the final product, right? It's about the shot. But it sounds like for you, that's part of it, but that's only part of why you're like, part of it is about, it's about the interaction, the conversation, the moment. Yeah. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you.

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Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. It's interesting. I was scanning back through some of the stuff that you posted on Instagram.

And you shared a shot of George Carlin. And the caption was something like, the shot is meaningful to you. When you reflect on it, you would have done it differently. But what you love about the shot is it reminds you of the time spent with him. And that with George Carlin. You know, like me and George having a chat. To me, that is so much more valuable than this image, which is not my favorite and, you know, not great, not anything. But that 20 minutes with George Carlin, man, just listening to him on a personal one-on-one is everything.

And that is so much of the experience. And, yeah, it happens a lot with celebrities, but it's real people as well. It's like, when did you get this chance to really, you know, and it's brief and it's fleeting. And for that, it can be authentic because, you know, you're probably never going to see that person again. And that to me is the experience.

And what I'm beginning to understand looking back in retrospect is that the conversation and the authenticity of the conversation makes for the portrait so they work very much in tandem but if you told if you said to me okay we're going to destroy that picture of george carlin um and nobody will ever see it again or we're going to take away your memory as they take the photo 100 times because it's the it's the experience you know even in retrospect looking back at that picture what i do like about it is the communication that that's kind of the i don't like the light focus is bad the exposure was wrong but the communication is what sits with me in that memory yeah it's so

interesting to me because when i think what a lot of people think about a photographer they or the a particular photograph let's say you know they think about well you know this is a great depiction of the fact of what was seen but what what they probably don't think about is, but this is actually, it's always got to be some blend of the fact of what appeared before the lens and the person who chose how they were going to capture it. But maybe there's a third thing in there also, which is the quality of, especially if you're talking about portraiture, the quality of the interaction at that moment in time, it's got to elicit something, you know, so it's, it sounds like it's blended these three different things.

Definitely. And I would say the third one is the most important. I have so many examples of just, you know, as anybody who's kind of talked to me about photography or portraiture knows and you know somebody somebody comes into just as we kind of touched on they come into a room I come into a room we're both there for a purpose you're there to have your picture taken I'm there to make the picture it's hard to remember what i was thinking 25 years ago but what i'm thinking now is my light i know i kind of know what i'm doing right it was 30 years if i don't know how you know the second nature exposure is second nature composition is not second nature but it's coming easier to me now so all i have to do i've got a great team that helps, you know,

with these things, and I'm still very aware of everything that's going on, but I know I don't have to think about it. The only thing I have to focus on, and I'm not that great at that either, is getting something going on between us, you know, getting you to smile or to nod or to tell you a story and shoot through that moment. That's all I focus on now. And it's really changed.

I've really begun to like more of my photos for that because I can really feel that, yeah, I made that happen. It's not saying anything about me, but it's saying something about that person, and I provoked that or induced that or made that happen. And that, I think, is the essence of a good portrait. And I think I've made like three

that I could really say, wow, if I had to only have three photographs, these would be the ones. And mostly it's not because of light. It's not because of composition. It's not because of any of the other factors. It's just that moment. The eyes are the authenticity

of what's happening between sitter and photographer yeah i think that's what it's all about when that happens do you know it when it happens yeah i do a happy dance i do a happy dance i've really um it's you know i call it like the the photo gods align right and the factors that make up for a portrait which are all the things we've discussed the light composition exposure they can align quite easily for me but when that fourth one where the the thing the moment the second the millisecond or one two fifth of a second or whatever hits it at that point and yeah you know it you see it you see it in your camera you see it and you go okay i got it yeah i mean do you feel

it in your bones at the same time no but i mean it's just like okay and what what what i tend to do when that happens is go, you know, there's a technical side of things, but there's a brilliant button. I'm sure lots of cameras have it. But the Leica SL2, which I've been shooting on a lot, it's a mirrorless, so it has a digital viewfinder. So you're not really seeing through the glass, which I don't like, but it has this one feature where if you press a button and the viewfinder comes up, the last picture you took. So you can be staring at the last picture you took, but not with your hands down. So it doesn't appear like you're chimping.

I think that's what they call it when you chimp down. So you're chimp, check. So I can chimp from you know check check so i can chimp from here and if i see it and i feel it then i would just go we got it and people are like what you've only taken 20 frames like we got it we're not getting any better and then sometimes i get a big smile and i'll take that picture they're like sweet i'm out of here you're like no that's the shot um but yeah it's it's definitely it's definitely a listen i i'm still nervous and anxious going into any job and i think the anxiety mixed with the nervous energy allows me to to bring out this personality i don't know who this guy is when he comes out but it's me and it's good for about seven minutes so seven minutes is a good

amount of time for me and then it just gets bored or i get weird or say something really bad or stupid yeah we should have stopped right i'm fascinated that um you know you're you're three decades into your career you've shot many of the highest profile people on the planet and yet you still walk in anxious do you ever wonder what that's about yeah um there's so many factors that can go wrong you know i think i'm doing what i love and i'm always trying to do something better and i'm always very aware of that and then i have these crazy uh pre-shoot anxiety dreams usually the night before i mean everything from my camera melting you know like it turned out my assistant alex alex why is the camera melting oh we've got

another oh Mark the other camera is melt you know these really vivid anxiety dreams you know about photography and I have to say in the whatever years I've been taking photos everything that can go wrong has gone wrong so I've witnessed it firsthand you know i mean i went on a shoot i forgot sync cable and the light you know i i mean you know went on another shoot with a certain hip-hop artist and he's hitting delete instead of the forward arrow and that was that was in the time before delete didn't go to the trash that was when delete was delete early digital software i've done a shoot and um i've brought the the film home and by accident i i haven't hand checked the 800 iso film and it's gone through the scanner i've lost film somewhere

between me and the dark group had to scan the Polaroid and give that to them. I mean, anything that has gone, I mean, we haven't killed anybody, thankfully, or anything like that. But anything photographically, camera breaking, dropping the camera, ruining the film, deleting the file, any of these things have happened. So I think that's probably where the anxiety comes from. And then, you know, it's a weird balance because the more prepared I try to be, the less prepared I am.

I know the things that I've got to get right, like I've got to get the equipment there. I've got to get my functioning camera there. I've got to get the light for how I perceive the shot. But if I start thinking really truly about what I want to do, then I go into this kind of crazy whirlpool craziness. So being prepared is my equipment, but mentally I just try not to think about it too much

until I get there and then I get anxious. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting also because the way you shoot so much of capturing the shot is about the moment that you create with the person so it's almost like the the more anxious you show up the less capable you are of creating that it probably makes you more anxious exactly i've had anxiety dreams where I can't speak, where I'm trying to talk to the person and they just go, uh-huh, what, what? And I can't actually vocalize.

I've had that dream. And I've actually witnessed that actually happen to somebody. I think that's probably where the dreams came from. When we were shooting Obama in the White House, I had a photo assistant with me that I'd been working for for a long time, incredible young man, and he had been through everything. You know, we'd had it all, any disaster.

The shoot went well for the five minutes we got to shoot. And then as Obama wanted to to meet everyone have his photo with everyone and um and I said and this is my assistant and Obama took his hand and shook it and said how's your summer going and my photo assistant just kind of went and could not physically speak. And I've never seen that happen to another human being before. And Obama was so cool. He said, well, enjoy the rest of it or something like that. It was just magnificent.

So I think after I saw that, then obviously that became an anxiety dream. I turn into somebody. It's not Mark when I'm taking photos. It's somebody. I mean, it's not like, you know, grumpy Mark. I mean, my wife calls me the Grinch, especially this time of year. But that's not what you get when I go to take a picture. But it can't last.

As I say, it's like five minutes and then everyone's like, all right, get them off. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious also, is it if you got your five to seven minutes where you have like this window to create a certain amount of conversational magic to sort of like try and create something that grabs the shot,

is the time limitation in part, you know, okay, so you're shooting celebrities generally that don't have a lot of time. You got to be in and out fast. But also I'm curious about your ability to sustain that. It seems like you're very gregarious. You're very easy in conversation. But I wonder also, do you feel like you're more introverted or extroverted?

And that being almost that forward-facing, being a part of the experience actually is hard for you to sustain just on a personal level? Or is that not part of the experience actually is hard for you to sustain just on a personal level or is that not part of it every interaction i have i can turn into practice for taking a photograph so if i go into the deli to buy a can of coke if my head's in a certain place which is off my guard i'm going to photograph this guy. What am I going to say to him as I hand over the money? I want to make this guy laugh. I want to shock this guy. And mentally, it's constantly thinking about, how am I going to make this guy laugh?

How am I going to make this woman laugh? It's much to the chagrin of my wife and family who get to witness this but it's great practice for me so I think it's practice it's definitely definitely practice it's definitely practice of communication but I have genuinely find that found that interacting with every human being you meet and I can't do it all the time but if you interact as if you're going to take their picture then you both have a better interaction do you always have a camera with you when you're when you're walking around or is it more like phone or my phone my phone so bad and i keep buying these bloody cameras to to have a camera with me and I am so bad it's it's a major major

irk for me and I have tried so hard um there's a fellow who works for Leica who's a really good friend of mine he's pro services guy his name is John Kreidler and I And I've never done street photography ever. I just, I can't, I live in New York City. I don't see anything. It's pathetic. You know, I'll go for a walk. I don't see anything. Anybody who was a reasonable street photographer walking around New York for a day would get great photos. I don't see it. I don't understand it. I don't know if I should step beyond me. So I said, hey, John, John's a really good street photographer. I said, John, can you give me a lesson in street photography? He goes, yeah, sure, come on.

So we go out, and my office is in Chinatown, so we were walking around the kind of court area there, which is pretty low-hanging fruit because it's pretty magnificent right so you know so it's a you know one of these new york light shadow days really strong sunlight really harsh shadows and i'm walking along and i'm framing up a shot of the pillars from the side of the court building and i'm just framing it up and I'm just like oh so so work with the light and shadows make a composition all right I think I got something yeah this is pretty good and at that moment this woman in a full-length red coat decided to to walk out between two of the pillars in the right place.

And miraculously, I pressed the button at that moment and got kind of in the air, like leaping off a step. And I looked at it, I think, I am now retiring from street photography. I am done. I will never, ever match that again, ever. So I've retired as a street photographer. I'm still waiting for that moment in portraits. So you had your one magnificent day. Yeah. I'm retired. Never do that again. It's interesting. I have this curiosity,

because I think we're all walking around with cameras in our pockets now. Whether you have a Lycra on a strap around your neck or whether you have a phone in your pocket. My curiosity is on the one hand, I feel like if I'm going out, if I'm always in this mode where I'm in scan and capture mode, I'll probably see a lot more in my life. Even if I never take a shot, if I'm in that mode, I will be seeing. I'll be actively moving through my day seeing. But then I also wonder if the dark side to that is I won't be as in it myself because I'm in a mode of looking to capture, looking to witness and frame and capture rather than being in the frame and being in it. And I wonder if there's that tension because I sometimes feel that when I'm walking around and I'm almost in that, I want to capture some cool stuff mode. I'm like,

but what if I'm just here? What if I'm actually in the frame and me wanting to capture the frame stops me from living it? Wow. That's very, very interesting insight. I absolutely hear what you're saying, but I don't suffer from it because I'm never looking, but that's a, that's a hard scenario. I think, I think, I think with, with everything it's, if you're capable, I would say there's capture days and there's not capture days and but that's that's really really difficult you know we went to see jerry seinfeld a few months ago um well a few months ago before the pandemic and uh he does this bit about you know he's walking through you know he's walking through town or whatever he's got his buddy and his buddy goes jerry jerry look at that look at that

and he just doesn't look he doesn't want to fill his head with whatever. He says, oh, there's a guy over there doing this crazy thing. And Jerry's like, okay, I got the picture. He keeps walking. And I think I'm a bit like that. I don't want to see it because I don't want to feel guilty about not taking a photograph. So if I don't see it, then, you know. Yeah, I think your point is very very interesting and

because when I'm working mostly it's um very intense short periods of time I mean there's a lot of hurry up and wait but to go looking for something out with that I just have I don't have the, I don't have the discipline. I don't have the talent or the discipline. And I don't like it enough. I don't particularly like being cold. I don't particularly like being alone. I think most of the street photographers,

somebody came to my office the other day to pick up a lens that I had borrowed from Leica that he was borrowing. It was pissing fucking down in New York City. It was like one of these torrential downpour days. And he's a very well-known street photographer. And he's got his full anorak on and his hood up. And I have to take the lens I used. So we run under a bus stop and so so how's your day

going like really sarcastically like you know uh that's brilliant i'm getting great stuff i'm like wow mind-blowing so yeah i'm not that guy i i am i am certainly not that guy but major respect yeah to those who are i think you should for you i think you shouldn't be hard on yourself and over not overthink it you know it's interesting i think i've also inadvertently found myself doing what you said where it's sort of like you know there are times where i'm i'm just out you know where i am right now i can uh you know in in five minutes i'm walking in on a dirt trail in the middle of stunning mountains and I have this impulse, you know, because I look out and I'm scanning the horizon and I'm like,

this is the most stunning moment. You know, I can't believe what I'm seeing. And then my next impulse is to reach into my pocket and I have to capture this because- It's like crap right and then yeah it never actually reflects anything but then i'm also like i'll like i'll literally put my hand on my phone and then i'll stop myself i'm like no man like that's not the point of this moment right there's a time and a place for that and so i think i have a similar wiring to you if you can do that for real i do it through laziness. But if you can actually do it for real, I think you're really onto something.

Yeah, I go back and forth. Some days I do it. Some days I'm just like, okay, so this will be my time to capture. But then other days I'm like, no, this is just my time. Yeah. Yeah. It's also, I think it comes to the experience we're out walking. There's a golf course just behind us here in Long Island.

And we were out walking on the golf course. And the light was that kind of William Merritt Chase stunning. I mean, the light was just unbelievably beautiful. And there was a three-quarter moon. It was still about 4 p.m. It was a three-quarter moon. And the sun was going down behind and the layers and the levels and the moon and it was just and you know somebody i was with said oh

you should you should take a photo this is gorgeous and i just knew that the moon would look tiny the colors would be wrong the scale would be wrong i was like yeah if i had x y z d to do this and so yeah i pull out my camera take a snapshot come back let's see that photo i'm like didn't look like that like yeah so i think i think also the experience of knowing that you that it's better to live it as a moment and keep the memory, as you were saying, or while you're there, you know. I mean, I have a six-year-old, and I've been pretty reasonable at documenting him,

mostly through cell phone. But, you know, once every six months, I'll photograph him with a camera. And I don't think I made very many successful pictures, but I've been pretty successful about documenting his different stages. So that was insightful. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So I got to ask you about something because you shared throughout the conversation a number of times a sense of, I would almost say, profound humility about the level of skill in creating images. And from the outside looking in, I think, you know, I look at, I look at the images that you have created over a long window of time. So many just stunning portraits where I will literally sit there, you know, and just look and look and look. And I don't know why I'm looking, but I know there's something immensely powerful about it.

And I, and I know I'm not the only one, you know, there's something immensely powerful about it. And I know I'm not the only one. There's something stunning. There's something deeply moving about this. And here you are 30 years into your career, sort of like struggling to stand in that place of like, I do have this certain, there's something about a place where I am right now that allows me to create some really powerful images that move people. I'm definitely incredibly grateful. And I think there's so many expressions, fake it till you make it or whatever. You're only as good as your last photograph,

even though I haven't heard that one for a while, but it's hard when you're a freelancer. I think you spend so much of your time worrying about, you know, how are you going to pay for this and pay for that? And, you know, the struggles are very real for photographers. I mean, I'm thankfully in a better position than, you know, I used to be, but so many times you do a shoot, the client's happy and you put it behind you and you're looking forward. You're never looking back at that. You know, that was pretty good. Like what's next? What's next? How am I going to make this? Some of it now thankfully has developed into, oh, I can actually, I don't have to worry about money so much, but it hasn't taken away the worry of what's next. What am I going to do next?

How am I going to do better? two or three years doing things like this has forced me to be a little more retrospective about everything and sometimes I kind of take a quick glance at the catalogue and go Jesus that's a lot of work some of it's some of it's not bad but I don't think I'm ever going to be the person that I think I think when think when you think you're doing great and when you think everything's great, it's time to hang it up. I still have the passion to do better. I'll always have the passion to do better. You know, if I look at some of my absolute heroes,

Payne, Avedon, you know, there's 10 photos. I mean, they made thousands of fabulous photos, but there's 10, right? I mean, maybe one, two, I don't know. So if these guys were always striving to be better and to move forward and to work with the times and the different way things are happening, then I think it's a bit of a joke to think that, you know, me as a, as, as a photographer can't do better and be better. And I think that's the, the genuine humility of,

of where it comes from. And I also think that, I think that if you can find a balance on set between being kind of cool and not a dick, I mean, often people who I'm photographing have seen my work and have often an idea of who I am and what I've done. But if you can play the humility card, and it's genuine, and give off the impression that you know exactly what you're doing, but you fumble around a little bit, I think it's endearing. It actually helps with the work at the end of the day.

But you also, I mean, not to skip over that one thing you said, and it's genuine, you know, and with you, you know, you really feel it is. And there's, there's this sense of yes, I'm 30 years into my career, but I have this perpetual beginner's mind. Total, total. It's such an important part of who you are. You just keep saying the things that I want to say much smarter than I say them. No, you're right. I've never thought about it like that but yeah I have a beginner's mind

you've nailed it I mean that's exactly what it is how do I make this better what I did do during the pandemic was really interesting for me was I've been threatening promising myself to do a book and it kind of started as 20 years in New York and now it's 25 years in New York and a couple of days will be 26 years but I you know people I talked to and people I respect said you got to find an angle you're not going to be happy about just a book of your photos because that doesn't it's just not who you are. So I was really trying to find an angle. And what I kind of came up with was to go back over all the old shoots and look at stuff that I'd missed or stuff that I didn't consider

because the client hadn't considered it and it just went away. Or more importantly, stuff that appeals to me now but didn't appeal to me then you know sometimes if you were doing something for someone there's some shots back there that have the great interaction that weren't lit perfectly that I looked over because the client was looking for this or that so I re-retouched around 250 pictures during the pandemic. I went back to the beginning of my digital catalogue because my film wasn't with me, it's in storage.

And I'm nearly through that. And the next stage is to go back to the film and do the same stuff. And although I'm not, you know, somebody, if somebody looking at it might not see it, it's not like a glaring statement. I still think they're all, I think so photographs of merit that I've taken, but there's just a slight difference going back and looking at pictures from 25 years ago. Beyond trying to curate something potentially for a book, just what was that experience like for you going back and looking through? Horror, horror, horror. Can't believe I did that. Can't believe I didn't do this. Oh, actually that will work, but I didn't mean to do that uh no it was it was it was incredibly anxiety provoking and it was a wonderful pandemic project because it keep me truly focused and i could there was no client pressure because i was a client so or i am the client so there's no client pressure so I you know could work at weird times you know wake

up at five before you know the family got up do a few hours um and then like work late into the night because I could go for a sleep in the afternoon because you know I wasn't actually shooting so much so it was uh the pandemic flew past the first. I mean, now it's dragging because I'm kind of back at work and shooting. And it's another crazy. I mean, thank God I'm shooting. But it's added a whole new level. But the pandemic kind of flew past.

The summer months flew past. And in retrospect, if I have to find a silver lining, I think that's a major. I would never, ever, ever have done this if it wasn't for the fact that I was in isolation for six months. So yeah, it was horrific. But I did learn. I mean, I learned things not to do more than things to do. Yeah. I mean, beyond the technical experience, were you able to savor any of it? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, oh, there was one shoot that I went back to. It was a pretty recent shoot and I'd photographed Chris Rock. And I'd forgotten I'd photographed Chris Rock and I'd forgotten I'd photographed Chris Rock I mean

not in a bad way I mean just like if somebody had said Mark have you photographed Chris Rock I'd go yeah but it just in my head it wasn't there oh Chris Rock oh yeah so like for instance that and there was a wow there's a good photo in here. So, yeah, there was definitely some very pleasant surprises that were usually quickly undone by dreadful, horrific errors. No, but it was nice to revisit the story. Looking through the pictures reminds me of the story, and there's always a story. So there's always a different studio or, oh oh God, do you remember the lunch we had after

that? Or do you remember the fact that we forgot film and we had to, so there's always a story. So it was nice to relive the stories. I love that. I'm a big believer in that, you know, a good life is a well-storied life. And if you have this catalog of images that for you even though nobody else will know this it for you it triggers a moment a conversation a story you know um it's pretty cool i was looking i was looking back at a shoot that i did for men's health it was a cover for men's health of usher and we were uh shooting we were staying in la and we were shooting on a beach one of the beach houses in malibu and those were rent it was back in the early 2000s probably where you know there was budget there was dj on set there was a kind of budget for stuff and

styling and motorhome and a big cup you big cover for a national magazine. And we've checked and double-checked and triple-checked the equipment. We know we've got everything because we know when we get to Malibu, we're kind of done. Film has been delivered. It's in a bag. It's there. Everything's there.

We get out to Malibu and set up our lights and everything's looking great and I said to whoever was helping me that day or who the team I said give me some polaroid I'm going to rattle off some polaroid and just make sure the light's okay they come back and they're both ash and face we don't have any polaroid but we ordered it yeah it's not in the bag with the film. We've got no Polaroid. Now, I wouldn't actually be that worried about that. But I know the creative director, the art director and 60 other people are going to see Polaroids. So Usher comes out and he's pretty, he's changed. He's ready to go. He's gone set. And I I'm I think anybody who knew me could see that I'm certainly anxiety although I wasn't showing it and I turned around to my friend to the stylist who was a friend or

somebody I knew quite well I said do me a favor I've got no Polaroid it's on its way from LA it's going to be like another 40 minutes I I don't like, can you change the pants? But take your time with it. And she's like, so he goes in and they're like, well, did you take a polo? I said, no, I didn't like the pants. So one of my assistants realized that Russian Vogue was in the house next door. And I said, just go ask them for a pack of polo. I tell them we'll give them it back

in five minutes so she goes over and you know it's five minutes ten minutes fifteen minutes and Usher is like coming back out she comes back she's got a pack of Polaroid rip over the Polaroid and you know back in the day you'd take like 20, 30 Polaroids. I was like taking three and really examining them, showing them around. And the creative director who's worked with me for a while is like, what the fuck is wrong with him? What are you doing? And then, you know, so I said, I think we'll do the shot.

We'll do the shot because I've got film. So we start doing the shot and I can see from the beach the road and I see the delivery van coming and I kind of relax and do the shoot. But, you know, that story is just going to stay with me forever. I remember telling Usher about it another time I photographed him. He goes, no, I didn't realize there was anything wrong. But me as a human being probably took 10 years off my life but still kept the you know the

pretense that everything was okay yeah i mean you look all these images are just they're all these backstories that nobody could look at the image and know what the story is but there's but for you there's so much more there well that that was going to be the name of the book crap story crap photos good stories there. That was going to be the name of the book, Crap Photos, Good Stories. Don't look at the photos, but the stories are good. The other thing that came about during the pandemic was this idea of I teach a few like academy seminars every year. And I have absolutely no gift for teaching teaching but i do quite enjoy the process of giving information that people want and i you know just to get a we get a i get a ton of

requests on instagram and my social how do you do this how do you make this and some of them like well you put a lens on it but a lot of them are much deeper than I ever thought they would be and people take a long time and I got a bit of a reputation for answering people which is really nice I try and answer everybody so we started a YouTube channel it's called complicated things and it's we're not going to teach you how to set your f-stop, but we maybe hopefully teach you how to budget for a job. You know, that's been really, really nice to do. So if you get a moment, folks, check out Complicated Things. There'll be some giveaways, Complicated Things. That's awesome. I haven't actually seen that, so I'm going to have to check it out. It's kind of fun. It's me and my partner, Alex, and we have different views on things, which is great. I'm kind of old school, and he's young and knows what he's doing and is able to multitask. If you hand me more than one thing, I'm... It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well.

So hanging out here in this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life. It changes every day, doesn't it? I mean, it changes in your circumstances. I think to truly live a good life, and I certainly wish I took more of my own advice here, would be to take every day, look around you, see what you can do,

see what you can experience, see what you can contribute, and not delay things. Because if you delay, then you don't do it so i think living a good life is making making the most of every day depending on the circumstances i mean sometimes you know i photographed michael douglas and he he was just after his cancer surgery, and he said, I've got a bit of advice for you. He said, it's something very similar to what you were saying. He says, when you're sick, you've got to make the most of it because there's nothing else you can do.

So even if you're not feeling great or not, you know, you're not feeling well, make the most of that. I would like to take more of my own advice there. Sometimes I just don't want to do this and then regret it and sometimes the rewards for the effort aren't immediate and sometimes the rewards don't come back for months or years or you know the time that I insist on spending with my son right now. I'm chopped liver, basically. If mum's around, forget it.

But I really believe that putting in this energy and the time is, and I see little hints of this way back, just like, hey, daddy, do you want to? I'm like, ah, okay. Yeah, it's a great question.'m like, ah, okay. Yeah. It's a great question. That's the stuff that matters. Thank you. I really appreciate the conversation.

Brilliant. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so,

be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Show me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.