Good Life Project - Marlo Thomas & Phil Donahue | 40 Years Together, What's the Secret?

Episode Date: May 3, 2021

Iconic actress, producer, author and activist, Marlo Thomas, never wanted to marry. She saw what she believed was the way marriage “had” to be - one person giving up their dream for the other - and knew it wasn’t for her. Then, one fateful day in 1977, she appeared as an hourlong guest on the legendary daytime talk show hosted by Phil Donaghue. Both were smitten, they sensed something powerful had happened, but neither of them knew that conversation, aired before millions of viewers on daytime TV, would effectively be a first date that would lead to a marriage that’s now lasted more than 40 years.Reflecting on what makes a relationship last that long, they got curious and began to set up double dates with many celebrity couples they know, and others they didn’t. People like Viola Davis and her husband, actor Julius Tennon, filmmaker Rob Reiner and his wife Michele; award-winning journalists Bob Woodward & Elsa Walsh; Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen; Ray Romano and his wife Anna, Neil Patrick Harris and his actor/chef-husband David Burtka; the Rev. Jesse and Jacqueline Jackson, John Leguizamo and wife Justine and so many others. Those hours-long conversations went so deep, got so vulnerable, open and at times, hysterically funny, they turned interviews into the bestselling book, What Makes a Marriage Last. And now, those conversations and more are featured in their new original podcast series, Double Date (https://www.pushkin.fm/show/double-date-marlo-thomas-phil-donahue/). We had so much fun talking about those early moments in their lives and relationship, what was really going on in each of their lives, hearts and minds and what they learned sitting down for double dates with so many incredible, long-term couples. You can find Marlo & Phil's new podcast at:Double Date : https://www.pushkin.fm/show/double-date-marlo-thomas-phil-donahue/If you LOVED this episode:You will also love the conversation that we had with Julie and John Gottman (https://tinyurl.com/gottman-love-lab), who are the founders of the legendary Love Lab, and their deep-dive into what love and what long-term relationships and marriages really are all about.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So one of today's guests, iconic actress, producer, author, and activist Marlo Thomas never wanted to marry. She saw what she believed as the way marriage had to be, one person giving up their dream for another and just knew it wasn't for her. And then one fateful day in 1977, she appeared as an hour-long guest on the legendary daytime talk show hosted by my other guest today, Phil Donahue. Both were smitten, to put it mildly. They sensed something powerful had happened, but neither of them knew that that conversation, aired before millions of viewers on daytime TV, would effectively be a first date that

would lead to a marriage that has now lasted more than four decades. And more recently, reflecting on what makes a relationship last that long, they got really curious and began to set up double dates with many celebrity couples that they know and others that they didn't. People like Viola Davis and her husband actor, Julius Tennant, filmmaker Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle, award-winning journalists Bob Woodward and Elsa Walsh, Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen, Neil Patrick Harris and his actor-chef husband David Burka, John Leguizamo and his wife Justine, and so many others. And those hour-long conversations, they went so deep, so fast, got so vulnerable and open at times, really hysterically

funny. They turned the interviews into the bestselling book, What Makes a Marriage Last? And now those conversations and more are featured in their new original podcast series, Double Date. We had so much fun talking about those early moments in their lives and relationships, what was really going on in each one of their heads and hearts as they sat there across from each other, trying to figure out what is really happening here in the early days and how those thoughts and conversations and the relationship has really evolved over time and what they learned when they sat down with so many people to uncover what it means, what it takes to be in a relationship

for a really long time. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

So I think it would be fun to take a little bit of step back in time. I want to dive into your exploration of long-term partnerships, what brought you together, and also your deep dive, asking a lot of different couples how they have endured. But really curious about you individually a little bit first. Marlo, I know that as a kid, apparently your nickname was Miss Independence. Yeah. Tell me how that came about. Oh, I guess because I was strong-headed and wanted to do everything myself. And so my dad nicknamed me Miss Independence, you know, whenever, and I, it was half loving and half, you know, like, all right already, you know, I just was very strong willed, which actually he, he fostered, he liked my sister and brother and I, you know, to have

our own opinions and stuff. But anyway, my, my nickname was Miss Independence. Yeah. Which is interesting, right? Because your dad, very strong personality in front of the camera, especially when you're a kid. And it seems like also the, in your parents' relationship, your dad was the one who sort of, they both decided to put his career forward and your mom primarily became a mom and had started her career, but then pretty much put it on hold. Right. Well, my dad, you know, they met in Detroit on a radio show.

And then they married. I was born in Detroit. I wasn't there for more than a few months. But because my father wanted to go where the bigger nightclubs were. He was a nightclub performer as well as a radio personality. I mean, he was trying to make a living, but nightclubs was his passion. So he wanted to go to Chicago where there were bigger clubs, obviously, than in Detroit. And so my mom had to make a decision as to whether she wanted to marry my dad and go

to Chicago and wherever else he was going to go and give up her little 15-minute radio show, which she did. And so they got married and they had me and then they went to Chicago. And my dad made his career there. And then the great Abe Lasfogel, the great agent who represented Frank Sinatra and Judy Garland and Danny Kaye and all the big shots, saw my dad and brought him to Hollywood. So that was kind of our trajectory. We were moving around a lot. And so we really were raised, my sister brother and I were really raised in Beverly Hills. Yeah.

As a kid, what was your sense of what a marriage meant? What a long-term partnership meant? What was, when you looked at that, did you have a sense for this is the model for it and these are the expectations? Yeah. I thought it wasn't just a model. It was what marriage was. You know, it was like, to me, it was, that was it.

A man, the husband, had his work, his dreams, what he wanted to do in life. And the wife was the sort of supplementary character in the play. And so she raised the children, which was important. She tended to the home and she took care of everybody. And for that, you know, she had a family, she had security, she had a nice husband, a good marriage. But I knew early on that marriage wasn't going to be for me because I thought that was marriage. And if that was marriage, I didn't really want to do it. I wanted a career and I wanted to travel and I wanted, I kind of wanted to do what my father did, which was do, I didn't really want to do it. I wanted a career and I wanted to travel and I

wanted, I kind of wanted to do what my father did, which was do what I wanted to do. And I knew, I mean, not that I knew, but I realized, I thought that, well, you know, I'm not going to be able to marry a man who's going to stay home with the children and take care of the house. So I will probably not ever marry. That was kind of what my feeling was. And I wasn't sad about it. I just didn't want it. I didn't want to play that role. And I had a lot of boyfriends and I went to London and did a play for about a year. And I was very independent and I was having a time of my life. I loved my work and I wanted my work. And I always felt bad for my mom that she gave up her work because my mother was a good singer

and she loved singing. But that was her choice and so this was my choice. And I really do believe if I had not met Phil, I would not have married. There really wasn't anybody that I ever went out with. You know, I didn't get married until I was 42 years old. So from the time I was 20 to when you're really seriously dating, you don't really consider high school and early years of college, I think. When I was seriously dating as a young woman, I was never looking for a husband. And as I look back, there wasn't anybody that I would have wanted to spend my life with. They were all lovely people, educated men who were good at their work and all the things, but it just wasn't for me.

Yeah. Phil, I'm curious on your side, as a kid especially, you know, your family unit and your upbringing, I know you end up in Catholic school. Did you have a sensibility or a model for what a long-term relationship was like, even in the youngest years? I never thought about that. I grew up believing that if you said I do, you did for the rest of your life. So, you know, divorce was never, it never ended my consciousness. There may have been an aunt who was divorced in our family, I don't remember. But I do remember crawling over somebody to get to communion at Mass. That was usually the relative who was divorced. So it never occurred to me that this was going to be my I suddenly had four sons all to myself. And I didn't know what to do with them.

I mean, do you help them all with their homework? So I had all these, and I was still on the air, tap dancing every day for an hour. And, you know, racing home to make sure that, you know, they got home from school all right. And that whatever hunger they may have had, I was, I had to take care of. But I had a very unusual early married life in which I suddenly found myself to be a single parent. And I really, it was an eye-opener for me. I realized what women had been doing all these years right in front of me. And I didn't realize how stressful that was and how, you know, it was a full-time job.

I mean, here they were, live, breathing people looking at you as if to say, I'm hungry, Dad. When are we going to have supper? So all of those things came down on my head at once. So that was, I grew up in a hurry. Yeah. And that really, you know, that sets up the time that you and Marlo really connect. You know, you're both in the world of entertainment. You're both very forward-facing. Phil on TV on a daily basis at that point. Marlo has this hit show and then involved in so many different projects and also becoming a really strong and public feminist and voice for feminism. And then there's this fateful day in 1977 where Marlo, from what I understand, I think you were promoting a book when you land on Phil's show. I was promoting a movie called Thieves.

Okay. And Phil had been divorced about four years by that time. And I was going on a talk show. I wasn't expecting to fall in love with anybody. I was on a tour. I had been in other cities that I don't remember, but I knew the next city was Denver, Colorado. That was my next city. So I did his show and his show was not in LA at the time. So I wasn't that familiar with him. I knew that he was great. I knew that his show was a must-stop and be a part of because he had an hour show.

And my press agents all said, this guy's the biggest thing in the Midwest. You have to do his show. So an hour was kind of daunting. And one hour, one guest. I didn't think I was that interesting, especially at 9 a.m. But anyway, I was in the green room waiting to start. And he came in. He was putting on his jacket. And when he walked in the room, it really was quite a chemical reaction I had.

He had these big, beautiful blue eyes and this shock of white hair. He was putting on this navy blue jacket. And, oh, he looked like a choir boy. And she was a, I think you have to be Catholic to understand this, but she was, to me, immediately an impure thought. So we had an instant reaction. And it's interesting, Jonathan, because we interviewed so many couples for our book and then for our podcast. The book is called What Makes a Marriage Last. The podcast is called Double Date.

And many people had that moment where they met each other or even saw each other. Billy Crystal saw Janice when he was 18 years old. And he's married to Janice for, I think it's 50 years. He saw her on the beach. She was throwing a ball with a friend, and he saw this girl in a pink bikini walk by, and he said to his friend, I'm going to marry her. I mean, these people, you have that reaction. It's just... It's amazing how many of our guests... Yeah. Malcolm Gladwell wrote the book Blink.

Right. In which he makes the point that first impressions are, for many of us, everything. And that was the case in a lot of the couples that we featured on in our book. Yeah, that inciting incident, that moment fascinates me as well. I'm curious, you know, people can go back and actually watch that clip, watch the original conversation, which, you know, ostensibly is an interview, but really it's obvious as a viewer that there's something else going on there at the same time. And it sounds like both of you sense that too. When you wrap that episode, Marlo, you've got to move on to Denver, as you shared. You're on this tour where you're going city to city. What are you both thinking after that? That was

interesting, that was nice, or there's something that needs to be followed up here. I was a bit shaken by it because I was leaving and I, I had this feeling about this man that I would never see him again. He lived in Chicago. I lived in Los Angeles. I was on my way to Denver. It was like a one night stop. And I, I, I, I just had this very strong feeling about him. Aside from the physical of how good looking I thought he was and whatever else was going on chemically inside of me, you know, there's something about talent that is very, it's an aphrodisiac, you know, when somebody does something well, I mean, if you're a carpenter or a actor or whatever, whatever you are and you do it well, it's very alluring. And he was so good at the show. I mean, as I say, I hadn't seen the show. And the way he orchestrated the whole thing, he had such confidence. He was interviewing me with a lot of confidence in Savoir Faire. Then he jumped off the stage and ran into the audience and

talked to them. And then he took a call from a caller. I mean, he just was like a conductor of an orchestra. He had absolutely not a qualm about anything. Then he'd come back to me, go back to them. Huge amount of confidence. Confidence is sexy. So I already was physically attracted to him. And then his talent was very alluring. And when the show was over, it was hard because here was this one hour of intense focus on him and his intense focus on me. And then it was, well, goodbye. And I said, whoever the woman in your life is very lucky.

And he said, well, you're just fascinating. And then I left. And I, you know, I felt, well, I'm never going to see him again. I felt that. And I said to, there was a, one of his producers was walking me out to my car, which is they always, you know, show you how to get going. And I said, wow, he is really an attractive man. And she said, yeah, and he's available. I said, really?

She said, yeah, he's divorced and he has four kids. And I said, oh. So I had that piece of information. So at least he wasn't married. And then I got in my car and left town. And the next morning I found a note. After you called me. Yeah.

That was my call back, yeah. From written in my son Kevin's hand, Marlo Thomas called. He had called me the night before, but I was out, as you said, gallivanting in Chicago. Right. So, Phil, when you called the night before, why? What did you want to happen? Well, you know, I'd already measured her as a bad thought. And so I certainly had interest in her.

And, you know, I didn't want to be, you know, I didn't want to be pushy. I thought that was not a... But you had a little speech, you said, ready to say, what a good guest I was. Yeah, I did. Yeah. And she was.

She was a great guest because not only was she an entertainment star and good looking, but she was up to date on important issues. Feminism, most certainly. And my audience, you know, this is 19- 77. Yeah, my audience was largely know, this is 19- 77. Yeah, my audience was largely female, daytime audience. And she was perfect as a guest.

And that's pretty important if it's one guest for the whole hour. Right. So I used to, you know, I used to say, back in those days, I used to say she was a hangover guest. So if I was hungover, all I had to do was clear my throat and she'd carry it along. But you called me and you said, well, when I come out to LA sometime, I'd like to take you to lunch. To lunch, yeah. Right. Dinner sounded a little leering. So I thought to myself, oh my God,

it's going to take forever. It's going to wait for he comes to LA, then we'll have lunch, and he lives in Chicago. So I said to him, well, why don't you come and visit me in Denver? Denver can't be too far from Chicago. Is Denver far from Chicago? Is Denver far from Chicago? He goes, oh, no, it's not far at all. So he hopped on a plane, and he came to have dinner with me. And it sort of was a continuation of the hour we spent on the air. We talked a mile a minute, had a lot in common. We were both raised by Catholic parents.

My dad was from Toledo. He's from Cleveland. We were very raised by Catholic parents. My dad was from Toledo. He's from Cleveland. We were very much alike, and our politics were very much alike, and we just hit it off. That moment began our three-year relationship, which was mostly long-distance and commuter kind of relationship. And then we married three years later. But even then, I didn't really want to get married. I was, what you say, crazy about him.

But I wasn't admitting that I was in love. But I really wanted to be with him. And we did everything we could. I mean, he had these four boys that lived with him, a wonderful daughter that lived with his ex-wife. And so he was constantly trying to see the daughter, being with his boys, coming to LA, maybe bring a couple of the boys with him that were too young to stay home. I mean, it was rough going, but we did it. We went back and forth from Chicago to LA every weekend. And I was raising four sons. The issue scared me, really.

I wasn't sure what to do with them. And I was, I'm not proud of the fact that I was, I was kind of a crazed parent, you know. And one of the sons said to Marlo on one occasion when she was at our home. Michael. Yeah, Michael said, I like it when you're here. Well, you were a little happier. Yeah.

You know, I mean, let's face it, to raise four boys and then be on your own, it's a tremendous amount of pressure. And I know also, you know, you're doing this, as you said, largely long distance and finding ways to navigate being together, which can be incredibly hard for a lot of people at some point in that window. I know you also kind of hit a moment where you thought it was just too much. It was too hard. There's too much distance between us and we need to break up. And you did, but that didn't last. Yeah. We broke up for about three months. We were, we had been, I think to Sacramento or somewhere. Phil had a remote of his show. I think it was in Sacramento. And I had gone there to join

him because it was a quick jump from LA. And after that weekend, we both said, you know what, this is just, it's just too hard. I mean, I was very active then. I produced about 12 movies for television and I was producing them and starring in them. I was really committed. And he, of course, was very committed to a daily show and his children. And he said, look, I got to get my boys. I got to get them raised up. I got to get them through high school. You know, I can't be leaving them all the time. I'm very guilty about that. And, you know, I think you're the greatest and everything, but it just doesn't. And I said the same thing. I mean, we both knew that it didn't work. And so I went back to my home in Beverly Hills and he went back to Chicago.

So we did not speak for three months. We made it a real break. I was miserable and I found out later so was he. He went sort of dating girls he'd known before, as did I. But there was no denying it. There was no replacement for him. And after about three months, we decided we just had to find a way to put our lives together.

So who made that first move? Well, I probably did, huh? You know very well you did. Well, I called you. Where were you at the time? I was in bed. It was three o'clock in the morning. Oh, wow. You have a better memory. You were in a veil or somewhere skiing with the boys. Do you remember what you said? I know you do because you've said it before. Yeah. I said, I never thought I'd miss somebody as much as I

miss you. You said, I never thought anyone would be this irreplaceable. Uh-huh. I probably did. And thank you for remembering. So that prompts you to both kind of realize, okay, so this has to happen. We have to figure it out. But what he said, I never thought anyone could be this irreplaceable. What you know about Phil is he really says what he means and he doesn't

flourish. I mean, I'm sure there were all kinds of words around that he could have said, but I picked up the phone and said, hello. And he said, he didn't say hello. After not hearing him for three months, for him to say, I never thought anyone would be this irreplaceable, it hit my heart because it's exactly what I was feeling. And I started to cry on the phone, and he started to cry. And then he said, I'm skiing with the boys, and in the next couple of weeks, when I can get away, I'd like to come visit you. And so then he did, and then we talked it out. And the thing on his mind most was, I've got to get my boys through high school. I've got to get every one of them graduated from high school.

And that, again, was very appealing. He was a responsible man. He was responsible to his children. He was responsible. graduated from high school. And that, again, was very appealing. He was a responsible man, was responsible to his children. He was responsible. He was in love with me, but he was responsible. And so we kind of mapped out our life. You know, that I would move to New York, and we would get an apartment,

and he wouldn't be able to move for about four years and then he would move his whole show and the kids would all be in college then. And that's what he did. He moved his show. Yeah, it was a whole, it was really a revolution in many ways. First of all, I really didn't plan to be in New ways. First of all, I really didn't plan to be in New York,

but the show was growing and NBC made the invitation and 30 Rock was a seductive address for me, especially at that time. And so off we went. Well, four years later. Yeah. Well, it certainly made the relationship easier.

Well, it made us, yeah, a lot easier to get married. Yeah, we didn't have a long distance feature. I mean, we got to, really, the pilots and the flight attendants got to call us by our first name. Chicago, New York, Chicago, New York. Every weekend. Yeah. Every weekend. It was.

It was. I mean, we were on an airplane a lot, both of us. And we picked New York because I said to Phil, I can't really work in Chicago. I can continue my career in both New York and L.A. And you said, well, I can work in New York and D.C. He said, I can't work in L.A. I'm not interested in doing a show about entertainment. He would have some people as entertainers like me,

but that wasn't the base of his show. The base of his show was really politics and what the, you know, what are the social fabric of the country had Ralph Nader on all the time, Jesse Jackson, Gloria Steinem. Those were really the, the base of his show. So, and senators and presidents and, and, you know, the head of General Motors, I mean, they really were not living in LA. So that wasn't the place for him. And so he said, I can live in New York or DC. And I said, I can live in New York or LA. So there it was. New York was the city. So that's what we moved to. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era,

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iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you end up in New York together, eventually get married and start building a life um but the occasion of your marriage is also interesting especially for marlo because you had been a very

vocal outspoken voice of feminism for many years and still are but there were certain assumptions i think about the fact that you had identified for a long time as an adult single woman without a need to have to get married. When you actually got married, it seems like there were certain people who were very happy for you. And then there were others who felt to a certain sense betrayed. Yes. Well, I mean, the people that I knew were very happy for me. Gloria Steinem and all my best friends that were feminists were very happy for me. But there were women that I didn't know in the country who wrote to me and said, how could you be married? I mean, I've always been able to say to my mother,

Marlo Thomas isn't crazy and she's not married. So I had somehow become, you know, a symbol for other women who didn't want to marry that it was okay not to be married because I wasn't a weirdo and I wasn't, I don't know, whatever. I didn't have a, you know, a unicorn on my head. So I was a normal person. What did that passenger say on the plane? Oh, right. We were on the plane to our honeymoon in Greece. And we've been very quiet. Nobody knew that we were getting married. We got married in my parents' living room with just 35 people, my family and Phil's family, and that was all. So the next morning, we were on our way to Greece, and Phil had gone to the bathroom,

and I was sitting there with my engagement ring and my wedding ring and all. And this woman from across the aisle said to me, are you Marlo Thomas? And I said, yes. And she said, are you married? And I said, yes, thinking I'm the blushing bride, the first person that's going to know that I'm married outside of my family.

And she said, well, how could you get married? I am so disappointed. And I was struck by that. You know, I thought, oh, my God, what have I done? I've let all these people down. And Phil came back from the bathroom, and I was upset. And I told him what this woman said. He said, what woman?

Where is she? And anyway, I got over it. But it was striking that a lot of males said that to me and that woman on the airplane. It was just, it was shocking. I just, I never knew that. I never knew that was what I was standing for out there. I wasn't meaning to stand for anything. And when you finally got married, and you told your mother that you were about to get married, and that you were going to marry

a man with four sons, she said... Oh, what a joke on you. Yeah, that was pretty funny. curious, which really explored, which sat where you sat down with 40 different couples who had been together for a very long time and really sort of said, well, what's going on here? What was the reason? What was the inciting incident for you undertaking that project? Well, for years, people had asked us to talk about our marriage, and we never wanted to. We really did feel that it was kept strong by its privacy. And so we didn't talk about it.

And then they would ask us, you know, well, what's the secret sauce? What do you do that's different? And we couldn't think of anything we did that was any different. We'd certainly made a lot of life accommodations for each other. I moved to New York, he moved to New York. We did everything we could to be together. But other than that, we loved each other, we liked each other, we had a good time together. I couldn't really put my finger on anything.

And so when we were about to turn, when we're on our 39th anniversary, we heard about a couple, right, that were getting a divorce? Yeah. Yeah, that was a blow. 39 years and you get divorced? We said, wow, how does that happen? They've been married like 25 years. We were married 39 and it was around our 39th anniversary.

We said, how does that happen? When are you safe if you're going to get a divorce after 26, 27 years? So we started talking about that. What did they do wrong and what did we do right? And how did people stay together? We just didn't know, especially people who are, one of them is not just backing down, but both of them are very involved in the marriage. And so we decided to talk to a lot of people that have been married a long time, because you can't learn from somebody that's been married five years. But once you've been married 20 years, you've got something you can say, something that you've learned.

And so that's what we decided to do. Four people around the table. And, you know, we thought maybe the interviews would go 15 minutes. No, we did not. I figured they'd be about an hour, but they were like three hours. Wow. We never thought 15 minutes. And finally, I would say, I'm sorry, but we really have to leave. But it was, you know, when we opened up, they opened up. It was easier for

them to talk with us about personal issues. And I think it made the interviews more interesting. Well, I don't think they would have ever been as successful if we hadn't. In fact, when we decided to do it, it was my idea and Phil wasn't all that for it because he said to me, I don't want to talk about our marriage. We've always been private about this. I don't want to talk about it. And I said to him, I mean, you learn after 40 years that you're not going to have your mate do something they don't want to do.

So I said, you don't have to. I'll talk about what I want to talk about. They'll talk and you'll be there to ask questions and so forth. But as we got started, it was so fun and it was so much like a double date. If Billy Crystal talked about seeing his wife on the beach and then Phil talked about meeting me on the show and then somebody else talked about being jealous, Mark Consuelos, Kelly Ripper's husband talked about his jealousy. Then Phil talked about his jealousy. And little by little, he opened up as they opened up and they opened up as we opened up. And it became

just like you would on a double date. One couple can't do all the talking. Everybody talks. And when everybody starts talking, they start revealing things and it's fun. I mean, when we started out, we said, this can't be a how-to book because a how-to book would be like a pamphlet. It's really a what book. What did you do when this happened? What did Kira Sedgwick and Kevin Bacon do when they lost all their money to Bernie Madoff? You know, what did Jesse Jackson and Jackie Jackson do when he had a baby out of wedlock? You know, what did Chris Guest do when Jamie Lee Curtis, he found out Jamie Lee Curtis had an addiction problem? I mean, what did each, and then how did they get back together? And what did the Sullenbergers do when her phone at home rang

and the voice on the other end said, your husband just landed his plane in the Hudson River? Right. I mean, and of course the world fell on their house. You know, how did they adjust to that? So all of the couples had, and it was fun to talk to like Sullenberger and John McEnroe and Patti Smythe and Jimmy Carter and Rosalind Carter, all kinds of people from all walks of life.

And when we got off the road, Phil said that the thing he noticed was what? Oh, both people wanted the marriage. You can't have one person kind of dragging the other along in the relationship. It really does take, it seems fundamental now that I think about it, both partners have to want the marriage. Equally. Because I know, and I'm sure you've seen it, Jonathan, as we have, in many marriages, there's one person that's sort of doing all the accommodating, putting it all together, making life interesting, inviting people over, you know, trying to, you know, or making up, being the one that makes up all the

time. Those marriages don't work because the other person just feels, the person that's doing all the giving and the fixing becomes exhausted and has no nourishment. Both people have to be nourished. That's what nourishes the marriage. And we figure that out along the way, that one person can't be the one that always says, I'm sorry, or says, let's try to fix this. That can't be. Both people have to make accommodations

that the other person is not you. And they're going to have different desires and different needs. And each person has to accommodate that. And I think accommodation was one of the words that we came off the road with and thought. And I had never thought of that word before. That it really is one of the secrets to a happy marriage is a happy accommodation that you say, you know what? This is what he needs.

This is what he wants. This is who she is. This is what she has to do. If you don't have that kind of thing, you know, I remember one time I was very, very busy and running around sort of madcap. And a friend of my, this friend told me, a male friend who was our friend of both of us, said to Phil, oh, my God, doesn't that drive you crazy that she's running around like that? And Phil said to this man, don't rain on her parade.

And that so touched me. Do you remember that? It was Chuck. He said it to Chuck. And that so touched me. Do you remember that? It was Chuck. Oh, yeah. And it so touched me that Phil had said that to him without me in earshot. He said, don't rain on her parade. So that's very loving and very caring. He wants me to have what I want, and I want him to have what he wants. And that's what you do as a parent. But spouses don't often do that for each other. I mean, a mom and dad will do anything to

give their children everything they want, to get what they want, the best education, a car, all the stuff that you possibly can do for your children. But we don't sometimes apply that to our spouse. And if we did a little more of that for our spouse, even I know from women that I've met, even to the point where the husband realizes that the wife really wants to go back to school and they need to find money in the budget for the wife to go back to school.

And often when the money is allotted, it's for the children to go to school and this and that, but sometimes the wife wants to go back to school and to find a way to make that possible for her is a very big act of love and accommodation. And I've known a lot of women who have been in that position. And marriage counseling. Yes. That's a real act of love. You know, when one partner feels, you know, a little bit threatened about whatever reason and suggests marriage counseling, that, you know, that really says i love you and i'd like this to last that was the that revelation happened during several couples brian cranson and his wife robin dearden and

and neil patrick harris and david burka several couples uh do marriage counseling and it says it's really helped them brian cranson calls it a tune-up. When we need a tune-up, we go see the marriage counselor. Yeah. I mean, what's interesting is also, Marlo, what you just described as wanting for your partner, what so often a parent is seen as wanting for their children, and being there to help figure out how both people can be fully expressed, can be confident, can be alive and be themselves in the relationship. I think that's so powerful. And what's interesting to me is that is the re-imagining of marriage from what you saw the model to be growing up. This was sort of redefining it as, no, this is

the way that I can understand being in this type of relationship, but re-imagining it as something that is more equal, more generous. Rumier. Rumier. The definition that I grew up with was it was a very tight place and it didn't have any, you know, windows to open. When we were married and still commuting, I had an aunt who said to me, that's not a marriage. And I thought to myself, this is why I never married. Because there's such a tight definition of marriage is, you know, in other words, a marriage, people live in the same city. If you're living in two different cities and you're commuting back and forth, in her mind, that was not a marriage. And that was helpful to me to realize that's what we did.

We defined marriage for ourselves. And that's what everybody has to do. When I was a student at the University of Notre Dame in the 50s, we had a marriage counseling session, all males. So we sat in the audience and a young married couple on the stage served as the advisors. And the man said, the secret to a happy marriage is find a good wife. That was marriage counseling at Notre Dame in the 50s.

God. You know, it's... It's all our responsibility. Yeah, find a good wife counseling at Notre Dame in the 50s. God. It's all our responsibility. Yeah, find a good wife. And, of course, we all leaned forward. And you were like, what, 17 or 18? Yeah, and accepted this brilliant counsel as important because it was coming from a married couple. Find a good wife.

Okay. At Notre Dame. Let me get out and find a good wife. I mean, it's interesting also in the context of the book and now the podcast where you're sharing some of these conversations because it sounds like you very deliberately sought out a really diverse array of people to sit down with. So having sat down with so many people now across different ages, different cultures,

different ethnicities, different sexualities, and different genders, you've been able to see so many different patterns and so many different repeated experiences. And I'm curious about those common patterns that you saw across everyone. One of the big curiosities is what you saw around vulnerability and the role of vulnerability in long-term relationships. Well, I was surprised by the male vulnerability. A few minutes ago when Phil was describing the phone call to me, it's so vulnerable for him to say, I never thought anybody would be this irreplaceable. It was a very vulnerable thing to say.

He was saying, I'm lost without you. It's hard for you to say it because it's so personal. And I think that for men, they're just not. I mean, that's why I did Free To Be You and Me. Women are taught to express their feelings. Men are not. Men are taught not to express their feelings. Only sissies cry and all that. So the thing is that a couple of the men, many of the men, were very vulnerable. As vulnerable as Phil was to say that to me on the phone. Ted Danson, who's on his third marriage to Mary Steenburgen, who's on her second. And they have a wonderful marriage.

They're a fabulous couple. They've been married 30 years now. And I said to him, how did you have the optimism to get married a third time? I mean, I could barely get married once. And he said, I knew I had to stop the lying. I said, what were you lying about? He said, well, I was unfaithful. That's one thing.

He said, but I was lying about who I was because I had this image of myself as a man. And a man doesn't feel bad about anything. A man doesn't, you know, if he gets rejected, he bounces right back. A man doesn't cry. A man doesn't have a bad day and so forth. So he said, I would come through the door at night, just having had a horrible day where I felt so much pain, but I wouldn't admit it. So I'd just come in like everything was great. He said, so the women that I was with never knew who the hell I was. They never saw the real me.

They only saw this version of me that I wanted to show them. He said, when I met Mary, Mary Steenburge and his wife, he said, I realized that she didn't play that dance. She was really looking at me and expecting more, the realness, the authentic Ted. And that's what made them fall in love and why they've been together 30 years. That was such an interesting thing for him to say. And I think a lot of men do that. They don't want to show how much they hurt, how much they get battered around.

Women do. Women cry and say, I had a terrible day. You know, we have no trouble with that. Even strong women like me, we don't. We don't see that as a weakness. We see that as telling the truth. Men see that as a weakness. And that keeps them from being good married partners. And then Bob Woodward, of all people, really showed his vulnerability. His mother left when

he was 12. His mother ran off with his father's best friend. So at 12 years old, he realized that, oh, whoa, we're in this alone. And then he got married and he went into the Navy or the Marines. I don't remember which. And while he was in the Marines or whatever, his wife left him. And then he went, oh, I'm alone. And then his second marriage also broke up after they had a child, and she left. And so he was firmly in the belief that we're all alone in this world.

And then he married this wonderful woman, Elsa Walsh. They've been married over 30 years. What he wanted in life and what he could give to her and what she gave to him, you know, he found, you know, a way to have a good relationship. But up until then, he had been really scarred, you know, by all these women leaving him, his mother and his two wives. It was very vulnerable. I mean, I just fell in love with him, Bob Woodward,

because you think of Bob Woodward as this guy like Mike Wallace, you know, who really goes after people. I had an awakening to the consequences of jealousy. And I was fascinated with the Mark Consuelo story, who called his wife from Boston. She was in New York, and he said, what are you doing? And she said, well, I'm cleaning the apartment and I'm cleaning the bathroom. And he thought that answer was kind of fishy. So literally, he got on an airplane without telling her, flew home, got to the apartment, went up to their floor, and ran past her, who she was standing at the door, looking for the tall, dark stranger behind the drapery. And it was a reminder of how that feature, which I think a lot of people, men especially,

suffer from in a marriage, is draining. It can wear you out. I had jealousy when Marlo made a movie with Kris Kristofferson, And they had a love scene. Well, I mean, that love scene, I thought, lasted like maybe an hour and a half. It was four minutes. Yeah. So, you know, I was jealous.

And, you know, it is, I think. You were jealous over more things than that. You were jealous about a lot of. I was. You know jealous about a lot of... I was. You know, I mean, here's herself, the actress, who was a bad thought when I first met her. So I could only imagine how she was met by other men. And she was meeting a lot of men in her work.

So this was something I had to get over, and it took a while. But I recall how draining it was. Jealousy really saps your strength. And if you can just get confident where you're not suspicious all the time, it makes life a lot better. A lot better. And it's very hard on the person whom the jealousy is directed because jealousy is not about what you're doing. It's about what the man or the woman who's jealous has got going inside of them. It's their, as Phil said, confidence. It's their lack of confidence or it's their own suspicious nature or paranoia. It has nothing to do with what you're doing.

And that's hard on a person because you think to yourself, well, what am I doing? Am I doing something wrong? Did I do what I said? It's difficult. And I was very glad when, and it wasn't a long time, it probably was somewhere in the middle of our marriage together, that you've kind of dropped that. And you told me what a relief it was that you felt the trust and didn't have to feel that anymore. Right. I mean, I really, I felt I had graduated to some different level of maturity, but it did make, for me, it made life so much easier if you

can get past that. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology, it's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. You know, one of the other patterns that I seem to see come up a lot with different couples who you sat down with, and also as I sit here with both of you, I'm noticing in a very strong way is that they see each other. You see each other. I can see you visually that those listening can will just hear this. But what I can see is you keep looking at each other. You keep noticing each other. Um, we had, uh, a little while back, a couple named Julie and John Gottman on the show. They had been researching love and marriage for decades together. Um, one is a clinician and one is an academic and they run something that's commonly known as the love lab. And They've done a lot of research, and one of the things that they found, they were actually able to? They noticed that people were making bids for each other's attention and affection all day long. And when people turned towards those bids, it was really good for the relationship. When people didn't notice them or even turned against

them, it was terrible. And what they found was that what they called the masters of these long-term relationships, they noticed the bids and they turned towards them 86% of the time. Whereas what they call the disaster relationships, most of them ended, they only turned towards the bids 33% of the time. And it seems like I'm married and dated my wife and we've been together for close to 30 years. We're married 24. And looking at both of you, I'm watching you notice each other. You know, it's literally you're looking at me, but you're also, you keep looking at each other. You keep noticing the different things, the quirks, the things. And I'm wondering if that resonates with you as something critical. I don't know that I noticed that.

I don't have a conscious feeling about that. But I guess as you, now that you express it, I guess face contact, eye contact is a revealing feature of anybody's behavior. But I mean, in terms of the couples that we interviewed, I don't remember noticing that, whether they did or they didn't. No, I didn't. I was so nervous about hoping that the interview would be going well. And after over an hour, when we would finally say, thank you, goodbye. Three hours.

Yeah, really. Some of them were. Yeah, they were. But they were fun. I mean, there was a couple of them that I didn't even want to be over. I really enjoyed it. And a couple of people, we stayed over and had a meal with them and had a glass of wine. I mean, it was fun. We made new friends. It was interesting in that way. So as we sit here today, you're both working on the

second project, which is a podcast called Double Date, which is really the extension to a certain extent of this book and where you're experiencing, whether it's reminded you of anything or there are things that you actually didn't notice or see the first time through that you're sort of revisiting. I think I just was very touched by them, that they would give so much of themselves. You said that at one point, that you were surprised. Right. said that at one point that you were surprised right i i noticed how much they opened up if we offered something yeah about us personal uh that seemed to open the door for i tell you what uh having interviewed one-on-one on my television show for almost 30 years, partnering for an interview really has its advantages. I think it means that the subject, especially if there's two of them, two on two, is more

likely to engage in a conversation with you that's going to have often a lot of personal information that we didn't beat them over the head to expose of themselves. They offered it, and often with enthusiasm. It was a real discovery for, I think, both of us. It was fun. And you know, after we've been interviewed by people for the press or television interviews, and they've all said to us, especially the print people, they said, I never would have gotten those stories out of people. You know, the amazing thing is, is that you were able to get them to tell really personal things. And we said, well, I think it's because

we didn't really go in there as reporters. We went in there as another couple. So it was two couples hanging out together, having a glass of wine or a cup of tea and some noshes that everybody put out because when we went to their homes, they put out things for us. It was a double date. It was two couples. That's a lot different. If we express personal stories about ourselves, they would do the same.

Right. It's amazing how the door seemed to blow open. That's different than a reporter. A reporter is such a one-sided conversation. They ask questions, you answer. We often ask them, how do you fight? Because it's not just how you fight, it's how do you come back from one? And a lot of people can't. There are people in this world who go days without speaking to each other. I mean, that is so beyond anything I could do. I mean, I cannot speak maybe for an hour, but I have to get back to it. You know, there are people who do that.

James Carville said, when you find yourself arguing, he said, she said, I didn't say, I didn't mean. Circular, circular. Yeah, around and around. Somebody should say, oh, let's kick this can down the road. And it sounded so superficial at the time. But not long after the interview, during one of our arguments, who did I say? You said it. I said, oh, let's kick this can down the road. And of course, we both started laughing.

We started laughing and thought, this is great. Something to stop it. Didn't you say? No, you said. I said, you put it there, you put it there. And it's of no importance. And you won't remember it two days from now. But it's such an interesting thing to have some codes to stop any of that

sort of bickering thing. One of our guests said, if you're having an argument, the best way to get over it is you should sleep tushy to tushy. So we thought about that for a while, too. And that is Yiddish, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. My Irish guy here speaks Yiddish. It's pronounced naches. And it translates roughly to the joy that you feel for somebody that you love so heartedly that you experience their success as your own. And I think that's a lot of what you've been talking about. Right. And that's also called kvelling, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And often we talk about it in the context of children. Yes. To have that feeling for a partner and a life partner, I think, is a really beautiful thing. It's a very joyful thing. It feeds you. It feeds each person. If I feel it for him, that feeds me. And it feeds him to know that I'm feeling that. So both people get nourished from it. You know, I really think that marriage and love are like a plant. They need to be watered. You can't just say, I do, and then walk away and figure out what else you're going

to do with your life. It needs to be watered all the time with love and attention and affection and observation and even interrogation. How are you feeling? What are you feeling? How can I help you? All of that is going on all the time. Maybe not in those exact words, but the attention that the other person really, you know, sometimes I'll say to Phil, if he's not feeling well or something, and I'll say, how are you feeling?

And he'll say, fine. And I'll say, there's no information in fine. I mean, are you feeling better? Are you feeling worse? Are you feeling better? Are you feeling worse? Are you feeling this? Are you feeling that? And so it's engaging in it. If somebody wants to know how you feel,

figure out how you do feel so the other person knows what state you're in. And that's difficult for, especially an Irishman. When I would complain, you know, my complaints to my parents, my mother especially, were never validated. You know, if I said I'm tired, my mother would say, we're all tired. You know, you weren't, you weren't, there was no respect given to the complaint that you just shared. To your feelings. Yeah, and to your feelings. We're all tired. Okay. It really is another way to say, shut up. It doesn't encourage. Who cares? Yeah. It doesn't encourage sharing feelings.

Yeah. So I feel like this is also a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation. I'm going to ask you both one final question. We're sitting here in this container and the name of the show is a good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life for each of you, what comes up? To live a good life? Well, I think a good life has to have purpose in it. So that you have something that you work toward and that you dream about and that you feel fulfilled about. To me, that's part of a good life. And to share it with someone, to have someone that you know has your back. I've also felt that marriage and good relationships are a cushion of life. So a good life needs a cushion. You need to know that if everything is bad or sad or falling apart or you've lost someone you love

or all of the things that can happen in life that are disappointing and hard, you have a cushion. You have somebody there who's going to support you through that and give you a soft, warm space, a shoulder, a hand, an arm, all of the things. Because it's a hard world. It's a world that's changing all the time in how it feels toward people, how it feels toward certain kinds of people. It really needs something constant. I think a good life has to have constancy in it that you can count on. I wrote an autobiography about 100 years ago. And I began the first chapter by saying, when my children pleased me, I didn't tell them.

That's an old Catholic Irish, I guess, axiom. And I realize now how wrong that is. To tell your children that you're pleased when they please you is a buoyant effort for them. They feel enlarged by it. They suddenly become, in their innermost selves, more confident. And nourished, of course. Yeah, and what a gift that is for them. Well, for my kids, it's a little late. But, you know, somewhere along the way, somebody said, too soon old, too late smart.

So that's how you answer the good life? Yeah, I think, yeah. Let me rephrase that, actually. When you think about your life and when you think about what makes it truly good, what do you think about? Well, I have a professional answer to that, but I'm afraid to. No, you don't get it, but it's about life. Well, you know. It's very hard for him to go to the personal.

Well. It's not about professional and not about children. What makes you happy? Well, when I ski down a hill, oh, I feel so free. And going over the moguls and finally getting to the bottom. He's not going to do it for you, Jonathan. He refuses. That's all right. You did very well.

Really, you did. Well, thanks. I feel better now. You did the best you could do. Maybe they can just take that part of the interview out. You did very well. Really, you did. Well, thank you. I feel better now. You did the best you can do. Maybe they can just take that part of the interview out. I've been known to wind up on the editing room floor more than once. No, you don't.

You're fine. I think in the exchange between you, while you were answering that question, we actually had the answer in what happened between both of you. The energy of love and support that came out goes a long way to answering the question. Well, thank you. Thank you both. Thanks, Jonathan. So before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation

that we had with Julie and John Gottman, who are the founders of the legendary Love Lab and their deep dive into what love and what long-term relationships and marriages really are all about. You'll find a link to Julie and John's episode in the show notes. Even if you don't listen now, be sure to click and download so it's easy to play when you're on the go. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app so you'll never miss an episode.

And then share the Good Life Project love with friends. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are.

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I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him!

Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.