Good Life Project - Meditation: Beyond the Practice with Susan Piver

Episode Date: September 6, 2015

Most people look at meditation as a practice. Something you do daily, most often seated on a cushion.New York Times bestselling author of eight books, and Shambhala Buddhist meditation teacher, Susan Piver, has a different take.What if it's not just a practice, she offers, but a path? A way of life. An approach to seeing and being in the world that plants the seeds of awareness, compassion and life in a more awakened and joyful state.She's written about this in her wonderful new book, Start Here Now. I had a chance to sit down with Susan and record a conversation live from the stage of Camp GLP in August, before a room of 350 people. The energy was electric.We talked about Susan's serendipity-driven journey through the hip-hop side of the music industry, her constantly yearning for answers to the big questions and her discovery of Buddhism, decision to eventually take her vows and what that even means.We also explore what Buddhism is and isn't and why so many people seem to be "Buddha-curious" these days. We talk about what it means to be brave, along with the potential upside and downside of belief. Then, we dive into meditation as both a daily practice and a path, do a bit of "white light" myth-busting and explore how this practice tends to work its magic over time.And, just for fun, you'll also discover how Susan watched the entire movie, The 40-Year-Old Virgin, in the middle of a 30-day meditation silent retreat...entirely in her head! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. You don't have to worry about embracing uncertainty because, my friends, I can tell you that it is embracing you constantly.

And if you ever become concerned, like, hey, where's my friend Uncertainty? Well, she's right here. So I'm so excited to share this conversation with you today. It's with my dear friend Susan Piver, who is a Shambhala Buddhist meditation teacher, New York Times bestselling author of, let's see, eight books. Her latest, Start Here Now, is a really cool take on meditation, but not just the practice of meditation, but the larger path of meditation, which not a lot of people talk about. Now, there's one really big difference about this conversation too, and that is it wasn't recorded in our studio in New York. This was recorded live in front of an audience of

more than 350 people who gathered from around the world recently for our annual Camp GLP celebration. So you will hear a bit of a different audio quality once I pass the torch from this introduction into the conversation. You'll also hear some pretty substantial audience participation because the audience was having fun with us and with the conversation and we were having a lot of fun too. One other thing I want to add in here, which is that one of the topics that came up during the conversation is what Buddhism is, what it isn't,

why there's such a large resurgence in interest in the practice and the path these days. We also talked a bit about just sort of faith in general and what's happening. There's a phenomenon that's been documented over the last 10, 20 years, which is tracking people who are leaving some of the more traditional Western faiths to become either what's known as the nuns, people who are spiritual but don't associate with any particular religion or faith. And a lot of those people also have been people who are exploring Buddhist practices. I realize I didn't come full circle in that conversation. We moved on from it. But I just want to be clear as you're listening that we're not asking you to pick and choose between

and we're not saying any one faith or tradition or spiritual practice is better than the other. We're simply exploring this interesting phenomenon and trying to see if we can actually figure out what might be going on and why the interest in Buddhist practice and the Buddhist path. So with that said, I'm turning it over to the Lord of Conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. So I was actually trying to figure out, I was trying to figure out how we know each other. How do we know each other? I cannot remember.

How do we know each other? I was wondering, was it prison? Yeah. Was it that really bad trip? Was it the Harvard MBA program that we completed together? In six months. Yeah. One of those. We actually did all three in prison. So she's incredibly gifted. So one of the amazing things that I love about you, there's a backstory. So right now, Susan basically travels the world and teaches people how to

meditate. And she's a beautiful, gifted teacher. And she writes. And she's a stunning writer. In a past life, you were a bartender in Austin, Texas, when Stevie Ray Vaughan was the house band. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. So in fact, she was the real brilliance behind him. I just don't ever miss that. I don't think I've ever actually sort of stumbled upon this story with you of how you went from the world. And then you had a tremendous career in music,

which, from what I remember, also happened because the owner of the bar that you were working in got arrested. Went to prison. Or college. I mean college. Harvard. That must be where we all met. It must have been. Can you fill in that story a little bit for me? Why? Why? Yes. Well, back in the day, I had no idea what to do with my life.

None. I didn't go to college. I won't make this story too long. But anyway, I ended up one day just getting in my car and driving. I'm like, I'm just, I heard a Bruce Springsteen song on the radio. I was a cab driver. And I was in my cab. It was two in the morning. It was August. It was hot. I was sitting outside cab it was 2 in the morning it was August it was hot I was sitting outside of a bar waiting for drunk people to come out and it was like the late 80s and I heard dancing in the dark this isn't not I shit you not and there's this line that goes, there's something happening somewhere, baby. I just know that there is. And I heard that and I was like, I'm out.

I'm out. There's something happening somewhere. And it's not here. It's not here. So anyway, I got in my sister's car. I don't even have a car. I'm like, can I borrow your car for a few weeks? I promise I'll give it back.

I was such an ass. And I'm driving. I'm like, oh, I'll just go visit people. If I run out of money, I'll get a job somewhere. I know how to do lots of things. I drive cabs and wait tables and so on. And one place I know I want to go is Austin Texas because I love blues and I just want to go there so I drive around for months a couple months

and driving around and I finally I spent some crazy debauched nights in New Orleans it was awesome and then I'm driving toward Austin, and I'm looking for the exit, and I realize, oh, I just passed the exit. And I try to catch the exit really fast, and I missed it. I ran over a sort of divider, and I destroyed the car. I didn't hurt myself or anyone else, fortunately, but my car was decommissioned, and I didn't have enough money to get it fixed, so I lived in Austin.

This is where I live. And I opened the paper to get a job. Cocktail waitress wanted, and I had been a cocktail waitress in a nightclub before, Antone's, Austin's home of the Blues right right yes people who know it's lit yes people who know that place know that place and I go in they hire me it's like the best I was so happy And the house band was killer. And then we'd have the guests, the Albert Kings, the Albert Collins, the buddy guys, the everyone's. And then the owner of the bar said, I think I want to start a record company. And he said, you don't work in the day.

Why don't you come help with the boxes? Oh, and I'm going to prison he didn't say that but it still happened that shortly thereafter so then I was there with the boxes and that's how my career in the music business got started and that led to 10 years a decade or so moving into all different positions

in the music industry always at independent labels VP of sales and marketing head of publicity, until I ended up at a hip-hop label in New York City. Because you're the clear choice for a hip-hop label. I know. I am the demographic.

No, it was a label called Tommy Boy, and they were like, we're going to start this division for people who are interested in spirituality. It was like a marketing play. It was like in the Enya days. Like, okay, people are interested in spirituality. I try and block those days.

I know, right? No offense to Enya fans. And so I knew him, and I'd recently become a Buddhist formally taken vows as you mentioned and like I want that job I want to create that division for this company and so I moved there

and like many great ideas I got there and we looked at each other and we're like what? what does that mean? how do you create music for people interested in spirituality? So anyway, blah, blah, blah. Ended up not working out.

But it was great. It was a great experience. So what brings you to... You're in the music industry. You're in New York City, which is the center of the universe at that time for what you were doing. And at that time, you take your Buddhist vows. First, what does that actually even mean?

That's a good question. Well, they hand you some Kool-Aid. And you just drink it. The vow, the ceremony by which you formally become a Buddhist is called taking refuge. And when I asked my meditation teacher, how do you actually become a Buddhist? He said, oh, well, it's called taking refuge. I started to cry because just that notion of refuge, finding refuge, just I realized how much I longed for refuge. From what? From confusion.

From having no sense of somebody who knew a lot more than me that I trusted. Just longing for that sort of wisdom that was real and deep and trustworthy and reliable andable, and tested, and I longed for that. And all these other things I heard just ended up being bullshit. But the Dharma, to this day, more than 20 years later, I can tell you, provides very adequate refuge. But what's interesting to me is that it sounds like what you learned for was true wisdom. You're looking for real answers. Does

Buddhism provide real answers? Yes, it does. Take me deeper into that. What do you think? What was behind the question? It seems to be Joe Trump's famous quote, but it's not the exact one, but, you know, the good news, bad news quote.

The bad news is that you're falling. No parachute, nothing to hold on to. Nothing. You know, the good news is... There's no ground. Right. And that seems to be, you know, something where I look at it, and it's almost like a training that says, we don't know what the answers are and you never will but the idea is we're going to teach you how

to be okay with that that's very well said it's very well said yeah it's it gives you answers for how to find your own wisdom that is not separate from wisdom itself. I don't want to sound woo-woo or anything. But it's, yeah, I mean, there's some things about it that are very black and white, like there are with many traditions. If you want to explore the nature of reality, like after you die, what happens? You know, the Buddha Dharma says this, that and the other. Those are answers. I don't know if

they're true because I'm not dead, but there's definitely distinct insights. And it's not just feeling your way, because that's sort of too loose. The thing that I love about Buddhism, and the thing that made me go, okay, I'm a Buddhist, is that there are no answers that exist outside of your ability to understand their truth.

Meaning, I can tell you this is how karma works, which I don't know, by the way, but let's say I did, and I said this is how karma works. It doesn't matter. You have to explore those teachings yourself. You have to mix your mind with those teachings, bring that mixture into the world, and then test. And what you find to be true, according to the Buddha himself,

that's your wisdom now, and you own it. And what you find to be not true, you never have to think about it again. You have to make it your own. Which has also got to be terrifying for a lot of people who don't want to step into that sense of agency. I think it seems to me that a lot of people turn to faith in the most challenging, darkest times in their lives. And one of the reasons they turn to faith is community.

But one of the reasons they turn to faith also is because most faith traditions have a clear set of rules to follow. And those rules about this is right, this is wrong, this is yes, this is no, in times where you're really unsure, can feel like an anger. They can feel like, okay, I get to surrender a certain amount of free will to the rules, and that gives me a place to touch stone when everything else is spinning out of control. It tells me what to do. And the interesting thing is that Buddhism seems to be, at least through my experience of it, almost the exact opposite.

Yet so many people, now that I mean, you know, it's very in to be Buddhist these days, or, you know, like Buddha curious. Right? So a lot of people are turning to it, and a lot of people are turning to it and a lot of people are turning from faith-based traditions, traditional faith-based, to getting really curious about Buddhism.

Which makes me really curious what's going on there. And I know, like, we had this conversation that you know, Buddhism is not, or you wouldn't consider, and tell me if I'm not remembering correctly, a religion or a faith. Like, you can be a Buddhist Jew or a Buddhist Muslim or a Christian. How does that play, how do those things play together?

Yeah. Well, when you say you can be a Buddhist Jew or a Buddhist Christian or whatever, no, almost. No. Almost. Almost. You can practice Buddhism in the sense of you can practice meditation, you can study the teachings, you can go on retreats, you can do loving kindness practice, you can do all of those things and be anything you want. A a Christian atheist a Muslim a ballerina whatever it's fine there's no conflict whatsoever but the formal aspect of saying this is I am a Buddhist or I am a Christian or whatever those you can't be

both it's it's too confusing's, they're just different. So the thing that separates Buddhism from other faith-based traditions, and there is faith, but I'll tell you in a moment what I think that faith is about. The difference is that, and it's a very big difference, is there is no God in Buddhism. There is no external deity, although there are many emanations of wisdom and if you practice in a Tibetan tradition as I do, the joint is lousy with deities and iconography and so on. But those things are not considered separate from you. So there's no, it's non-theistic.

So that makes it very different. So in that sense, you can, sure, practice the Dharma and so forth, and anything else you want. But the path is different. Which path are you on? So let's circle back to it then, because if we look at, there has been a huge a huge departure from a lot of traditional faiths and there's been huge growing interest in buddhism what do you think

what's that about in your mind because i know you have the answer and it's the right answer of course so write it down well it's right for you and that's all that matters you know it's a i don't really know, except for, you know, there's this growing, you know, there's studies that show that X percentage of people don't believe in religion, but they do believe in spirituality. to embrace spiritual values like kindness and wisdom and compassion and generosity and interdependence, you know, acting as if interdependence was real. Buddhism is, you know, custom made because those are the values that it teaches. And those are the values that it has spent the last 2600 years, like testing, like, you know, Western science has tested mindfulness over the last 20 years, or 25 years. Buddhism has been testing these spiritual concepts for like 2600 years, and has a lot of really interesting data. So many of us, I'm sure many of

you, you want to be kind, you want to be loving, you want to live in a good world, you want to express your goodness and decency, and you want to feel that your world is sane, and that, the Buddhist path is about, quite remarkably, profoundly, vastly, extraordinarily. And that said, I'm not saying it's for everyone, but the upsurge in interest, probably some combination of science going, hey, it's awesome, everybody, which people really take to heart, which is great, they should. And this longing for something real that is about the heart,

and that doesn't require a stringent belief system, or any belief system really, because in Buddhism, beliefs are considered an obstacle. Take me deeper into that. You know, the faith-based thing is very interesting In Buddhism, beliefs are considered an obstacle. Take me deeper into that. Okay. You know, the faith-based thing is very interesting because if someone in a Judeo-Christian, and I guess a Muslim tradition also,

although I don't know very much about it, says, I have faith, it means something very particular. And you said, here's your document, this is what you should have faith in. And so please really try hard. And it's very difficult. I've tried it.

But then there's a sense of, okay, I've been given these answers so that when times are hard, I can refer to this playbook. And if you yourself have investigated the playbook and have found that it is true and accurate, then you're a friggin' Buddha.

And you should have that playbook and you should use it and employ it and that is your playbook. And that's awesome. But if there's anything short of that, like, well, this is what I heard, that is the opposite of faith.

That is wishful thinking and some sort of willfulness. But real faith, this is my belief, or my faith, is not having beliefs, but going forward into your world anyway, your experience anyway, with a sense of openness and bravery, and then trusting what you experience and your ability

to meet it, fresh on the spot, boom, right now. That's faith in my mind is faith in your experience faith in yourself faith in the moment but beliefs are sort of the antithesis of faith according to this view does that make sense what do you think yeah what do you think yeah no i'm i'm really thinking on that it's interesting too because i just finished uh pico ayers book on uh the dalai lama and a beautiful writer that guy is stunning stunning writer and um he did such a beautiful sort of like very real profile of him and it was interesting because he was saying how a lot of the people who who are now you know in dharamsala criticize the Dalai Lama for magical thinking. Really?

Yeah, because they're like, you can't just sit here and wish. You can't just sit here and think that, let's meditate more and more. At some point, people who have taken over to that are just going to say, ah, yeah, you're right, come on back. That there's got to be a more aggressive stance, that that's a form of denial.

That sort of the cultivating intense acceptance piece based on compassion for the people who so many perceive have done a horrible wrong, that that's viewed as just, you know, magical thinking on the scale of delusion. And granted, there are far more people who don't think that. But he was writing about how there is,

there's a real deep, intense conversation around this. And the fact that, you know, the path forward is not that thinking um but so it's um so i'm trying to balance that with sort of like what you're sharing here and um and also again sort of like the moving away from faith-based traditions but before we go too deep down that rabbit hole because we can start to spiral for a while, as we sometimes do. One of the tools that I think is really powerful that allows you to be in that place where the world is coming at you. There's no way to lock down the future.

There's no way to lock down the next minute. What is going to happen, you have some control over, but a lot of it you have zero control over. Some of it's going to be wonderful some of it not so much you know and and that the truth of living in a state of constant uncertainty destroys so many people and causes so much suffering and that is a part of life in the world that we can't change it is what it is although so many of us spend the entirety of our lives trying to make it certain. But I think one of the things out of the Buddhist practice is meditation practice, which you've devoted so much of your life to, both in your own practice and teaching. And my sense is that in my own practice, which you've helped me with over the years, you know, beautifully. You know, the fundamental notion of it is

to teach you a state of being and a set of tools to be okay with the fact that you have no freaking idea what's coming next. Yeah, that's exactly right. And interestingly, to build on that, if you think, well, I'm going to cultivate comfort with uncertainty as a way of becoming certain, you know, busted. Right? It won't work. It's like, because I've tried that. And you think, well, it's so uncomfortable. It's so terrifying to be human. And we, you and I, and we here in this room, I imagine are in the luckiest.0001% of all humans when it comes to, you know, being under threat.

But we're still, it's terrifying. And, you know And I wrote, my last book was called The Wisdom of a Broken Heart, because it is heartbreaking. It was about heartbreak, but it's just heartbreaking to be a person. And one of the, so when you look at someone like the Dalai Lama, whether he's a magical thinker or not,

or my teacher, Sakyong Mipham there's some really great masters in our time who you can go and find and meet and talk to and they're not going to be around for that much longer this last generation of teachers who were classically trained

they're not upset they seem very happy They're not upset. They seem very happy. And if you ever hear the Dalai Lama give a talk, he's got a lot to be quite sorrowful about. But he's having a good time. So I ask myself, if practice instruction is open your heart and keep opening it and let yourself be touched

and lean in and lean in some more how is it that they're not running to their room crying like I am every five minutes what are they doing and so my guess because I don't really know is that through their practice they have found a way to have their hearts be this open, and you, well I'll just say me, mine's open and

closed and open and closed, okay I think I can try it again, oh no, no, forget it, it's too scary. But they're open. And they've somehow, their hearts are broken permanently. And they've somehow stabilized themselves in that open state through the practice of meditation. And that's freaking heavy. But also freaking light.

That's true. Exactly. It's like they're free. And so they have incredible senses of humor. They're so kind kind they're so sharp these are the marks of the meditator this humor actually is a funny interesting mark of a good practitioner

and very gentle and super sharp so the whole notion of the meditator navel-gazing, and oh, my country has just taken over, and, you know, I don't know what the Dalai Lama is like, or should do. Actually, I didn't meet him once, though, and I got to ask him a question, even. There is this fierceness.

So it's not like, oh, wait, everything's good, and everything's okay. There's this fire. That's what I think. What do you think? Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because your teacher, I've only met once and I had partially through you the opportunity to sit down with him and we just jammed for an hour. Which was awesome. We had a ball.

I was cautioned not to challenge him in badminton because he would crush me he's a serious athlete but uh you know when i asked actually asked him at the end what does it mean to you to live a good life do you know what he said no i don't remember he said to be brave oh that's so touching to me what did he mean me. What did he mean by that? What did he mean by that? I brought you here tonight to find out. I think it's exactly what you're saying. It's to allow yourself to have your heart broken. It's to step into the world and not run from it. It's to own the fact that we live in

massively uncertain times with suffering all around us and to be brave and to walk into it and to not close your heart in walking. And to move to that place. And the work is to continue to walk into that and then and the work is to continue to walk into that and then do the work

to allow yourself not to be crushed and not to have your heart closed through that process and to stay open which that's what I got out of that conversation you know his whole idea is that now we are at a turning point in the world and culture and society

and the decisions that we make now are going to ripple out for generations and we have to make a decision now about whether we choose to be brave and if so how will we prepare ourselves for that

journey. That's what I took from it which according to you if that's what i got that's my truth which is the truth that's so exactly like something i would say boom so meditation i want to talk a little bit about the book and then i want to open up to the room because um uh do you guys are there any questions building here like would anyone like to ask something okay so we're going to open up to the room in just a second you wrote a book now this is your eighth book about meditation when i talked to you like nine months ago which happens

to be an interesting time right this wasn't a book was it what was how did this turn from you sort of having to get out of your head your thoughts on meditation to this must be a book and i want to share this on a bigger level well i have a a community called the open heart project which is you know anybody wants to learn to meditate and i send out a guided meditation instructional video every week, and it's free. And it's been four years, and that's, you know, it's... And there's some 12,000 or so. Yeah, no, it's almost 14,000 people now, yeah.

14,000 people, which would probably make it one of the largest global meditation communities in the world. Right? It's pretty crazy. Right? Yeah. And where can people find you, by the way? it's pretty crazy right my website Susan Piper calm so I've heard you know I've given the instruction now many many times and I have heard the instruction many many times and I also on the you know commercial crassly commercial side

I'm like, I would like to get into self-publishing because I used to be in the music business. I know where this ship is going. And I, let me start a mailing list. I don't know what I'll do. I'll teach meditation. And then it sort of took over my life.

But I started the whole Open Heart Project to try to build a list so that I could someday self-publish because I want to keep writing and I don't want to have to go to the man every time I want to write something. So, you know, the man is great when he's great. So I have said certain,

I've given the instruction a lot of times and at one point I was like, let me just write down all of these things that I say a lot. Because then I don't say them. Maybe I won't say them as much. And also, I want to just gather all these things together. And this will be my first e-book. And I wrote it.

It was about 25,000 words. And then I, you know, Serendipity has been the name, I think our, what was the name of our interview? A couple years back. Serendipity was the name of our, that's been still my life.

I just, that's how it is. I ran into someone, an editor at Shambhala Publications, very kind, I like your writing. Anything you're working on? Oh, I'm working on this e-book that I was going to sell. Oh, I'd like to see it. So anyway, I sent it to her and there it is.

I wrote probably twice as much, almost twice as much as what I was going to self-publish. But because I'd already written it, basically, before I went to a publisher, the process could be fairly quick from that point. Okay, so here's my question.

Okay. The instructions are pretty basic, right? What? Oh, shit. See where I'm going? Yeah, they're pretty basic. so so this is interesting right because there are bazillion books on all different forms of meditation mindfulness is like hot hot hot now there's a there's a magazine called mindfulness you know there are programs all over the place there are lineages around it and there are people who have tons and tons and tons and tons of stuff to say the fundamental the fundamental instructions are are pretty short and sweet yeah so what's what's the bigger body of like conversation around it that causes so much

in like questioning and curiosity and the need for all sorts of nuance and stuff like that it's a really good question which i'll be delighted to answer but first if there's anybody here who would like to write a book but is thinking well what do i have to say that hasn't already been said or there's so many books on that i'm calling you out right now. Because does the world need another book about how to meditate? No. But did I have a book in me about how to meditate? Yes. But how many are there? A lot. So whatever it is you want to write about, maybe there are as many books on that as there are about how to meditate, but probably not. So please don't let that stop you, just in case anyone may be in that conundrum.

So, yeah, the practice instruction can be very simple, although, you know, there are details. The hands and the eyes and everything. Interestingly, by the way, and I know you're a meditator and have a very steady practice, it's not at all uncommon to actually forget some of those details. Oh, sure. I know. Like you're sitting there, it's like, okay, it's simple. Okay, in five minutes into it, you're like, oh, oh wait i'm supposed to put my attention on the breath or or my uh you know my hands should be palms down or in some mudra whatever it is that your practice is so you do forget it's very interesting and

mysterious you forget details constantly of this very simple practice but the practice is more than something you do sitting down. It changes the way you are in the world. It's a path. And that's why I wanted the subtitle to be The Practice and Path of Meditation because science will tell you it changes the way your brain works. 2,600 years of Buddhist saints and gurus and yogis will tell you that it changes how your heart works.

And it can be disconcerting. And also very interesting. So although the core of this book and many other books is how to practice, really the interesting thing is how does it change you and how do you meet those changes? Because they can be wonderful and or confusing and shocking even, profound. And so those things require some more data. Yeah, and I've discovered that too. Have you? Well, yeah, because I think there's this big, people think,

well, the practice, it's going to make me calmer. It's going to resolve my problems. It's going to clarify everything. My experience is that what it does for me is it creates enough stillness that I can see more clearly what I'm moving through, rather than, you know, through veils. That doesn't mean that what I'm moving through is any more fun, or easier, or more pleasant. It just means that I can see the truth of what it really is. And it puts me in a position to be able to then respond more to the truth of what's happening, rather than to the illusion or the assumptions that i think are happening in front of me and i find in daily life i completely agree like the

practice my daily practice which happens every morning has profoundly changed the way that i interact with the world 24 7 because you know that practice kind of follows me throughout the day. And I find myself in... This is an interesting example. This was long before I actually had a practice. But it sticks with me because I've been able to access this place much more readily. Years ago, past life, I was a lawyer. I worked for a big federal government agency. And I was able to take investigative testimony with fancy people.

So I was in Chicago in a cinderblock government room, and we called a witness into this room, and he was represented by a very fancy counsel. He was also a very famous counsel. And we're about five minutes in. I'm like first year on the job. I have no business being anywhere near this conversation. And we're in there, and I'm like, tell me your name blah blah blah five minutes in i ask a question and the witness's

lawyer big loud very love to argue guy and um he's like that's you know like that's completely inappropriate starts going off on me he's like that, that's not right, blah, blah, blah. You're harassing my client, all this stuff. And as he's doing this, for some reason, and this is funny that I still remember this day, because this was going on 20 years ago, but it stayed with me. It was almost like something zoomed out for me.

And I looked into the room, and I was like, there are two ways to play this right now. One is freak out, melt down, I'm a moron, he's right, and just lose it. The other is, dude's playing a game. Wow. This is kind of fascinating. Wow. So what's the game? The game is big, hot shot, famous lawyer,

government newbie, guaranteed every time he has this scenario five minutes in, he sees if he can rattle the other guy and just dominate for the rest of it. It's like, huh. So if that's actually just a game, if he really couldn't care less,

he's not angry at all. It's a test. Wow. What's the deliberate response to that truth rather than, oh my God, this guy's freaking out, he's ten times smarter

and better than me and he hates me and I'm screwing up big time. How would I respond differently if that was the truth? That's amazing. And so what I did was I looked at the court report

I said off the record I took the phone and put it on the desk I said I'm representing the government I determine what's relevant and what's not if you have a problem with that let's call the judge right now I'm good. That's amazing. Back on the record, we roll.

Right, so being able to feel like in my daily life, I can withdraw that way and get more objective context to what's happening in front of me and then respond more deliberately than reactively. It's probably been the biggest gift for me in the practice. That's incredible. So it allows me to see.

It doesn't necessarily tell me this is the right way to respond, that I think I see what's really happening. But it allows me to at least to get truer data to respond to, and then to not immediately just boom, but pause, just hit pause and say, huh, what makes the most sense here? That is incredible and so you and so difficult. And Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche describes insight as like a flash of lightning at night that sort of suddenly you can see in a moment. And it sounds like you had this natural affinity for insight.

It just suddenly there was this flash and something that was dark was lit up and it went dark again, but you held on to what you saw and you were able to then apply that so you have a gift for insight one could say so speaking about insight I'd love to know if anybody else has questions or insights they'd love to bring to you because this is a pretty beautiful and rare opportunity to just jam with Susan Jan, let's see. Hello. Hi. Hi. So I'm Jonathan. Hi. So I have two questions. One is this open heart concept.

So when you say that, I really wonder what you mean. And if you can give me practical examples. I'm struggling with it. What do I mean by an open heart? Yeah. Okay. And then the second question is I've been meditating pretty regularly twice a day, once a day for two years and I think it's helped me

in my life, it hasn't changed my it just hasn't changed my psychology my anything except for balancing my life a little bit. But when it comes to different psychological things or different moralities

or different ways of living, it hasn't touched me. So my question is, do you have to do something like the Buddhist status? Not that extreme, but do you have to do something else other than

meditation? Or something that can change that? So those are two points. I'm happy to offer something and we both could you know too but I want to ask you can I why do you keep practicing because it has helped me. Thank you. Nevermind, nevermind, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I keep practicing because I do believe in the tenets of it. Getting out of the mind and discovering something else

and experiencing something else. But what keeps you going if it's? It's faith, in a way. It's truly believing and having the experience of what I would say is to get a little thinking on it. And to have an experience that can be explained in a lot of ways, but a lot of things don't. Oh, so you did have such an experience, and you're practicing now to somehow explore that experience or stay close to that experience? Just to, you know, I believe in the tendency to lose enough, and I think meditation is the way to experience those. And there have been moments where I think I've the way to experience those. And there have been many moments where I think that God had the thinking mind

into whatever else, wherever else you go, and you're not controlled by the thinking. And is your practice a Buddhist-flavored practice? It's a mindfulness practice, Vipassana and mindfulness. Okay. Yeah. a Buddhist flavor? It's a mindfulness practice, a class that I'm mindfulness. Well, I have so many possible responses to your questions.

The first, what does it mean to have an open heart? This is a subjective question. There is no answer. It means this. It doesn't mean that. So it's something everybody has to answer for themselves what does an open heart mean to me and you know I would suggest it has something to do with the capacity to feel and

The willingness to feel more than the capacity because we all have the capacity But obviously we all have to be pragmatic and we can't walk into super traumatic situations and go okay I'm just going to try to feel everything that would be silly so some practice is very important as a support in that wish to explore open heartedness if that is someone's wish in Buddhist meditation as I understand it there is no requirement That is someone's wish.

In Buddhist meditation, as I understand it, there is no requirement to get outside of thought and no need to stop thinking, certainly, and no need to think good things or any particular things. No need whatsoever to modulate the thinking mind. So you don't have to do that if you had been attempting to get outside of thought. There is no such thing. So just something to think about without thought. Not while you're meditating, though. And also, and I don't know if this gets at your question, but for me, in terms of my experience on the cushion,

is almost always kind of boring. But my experience of my life has changed quite a lot. Kind of boring. But my experience of my life has changed quite a lot. So there's just no telling when the traction will take or if it will take or what it will look like in terms of changes, but I would also further suggest that belief in tenets can create obstacles. And instead to explore your own experience while you're sitting and in your post-meditation experience which is what Buddhists call the rest of your life to explore. And beliefs, as I said earlier, can create obstacles. So I wish I could offer something a little more direct.

You'll see changes when you do this instead of that. But there is no such instruction as far as I'm aware, but I do wish you well. If you want, I can. Actually, actually will take about 43 more days. Yeah, just do what he says. Yeah, so just get to there. Hi, I'm Marcia, and I am a proud member of Open War. Aw.

And a signer, as well. Oh, is that Marsha? Yeah. Oh, hi, Marsha. Hi. I wanted to ask you about being kind to yourself. This is something I've been thinking about a lot recently. It's something I struggle with a lot.

I'm sure a lot of people need it as well. And just your thoughts on what meditation can do to help you be kind to yourself or generally to yourself. Yeah. How do meditation can do to help? Do you find yourself in general? Yeah. How do you find yourself in the moment? Thank you for asking that. It's such a good question, it's such an important question, and it addresses an epidemic of harshness towards oneself

that I'm pretty sure we all experience, even though I don't know you. Just this sense of tremendous aggression towards oneself. And we apply that aggression, you know, why can't I be smarter, why can't I be better, why can't I be shorter, taller, richer, poorer, more successful, more like this person, less like that person. You know, that's the litany that I have all day long and I'm pretty sure

it's not just me and we bring that with us to our meditation practice where we're trying to find some kind of peace but to find it we beat ourselves up and harangue ourselves

and like, you're not doing it, you'll never get it right you're not good at it or you suck at following the breath or whatever and you know unsurprisingly beating ourselves up will not lead to peace

so just FYI don't do that on the cushion I mean we all do it but luckily the practice instruction is see that. Really see it. Not to change it, but see it. And in addition to seeing it, pause for a moment and feel it. In this Shambhala tradition, it's called touch and go.

It's like you feel this harsh thing coming up in your practice, say, like you suck it following the breath or whatever it is, and then you notice that and you let your attention touch it to sort of take its measure. Is it hot? Is it cold? Is it sharp? Is it far away from me? Is it right up in my face? Not to measure the validity of its narrative content, but to see what that thought feels like, literally, like feels like. And then you let go.

You just let go. Like that thought was a feather that you were holding in your fist, and you just open it and just... So you don't push it away so you don't push it away don't shove it away you don't incinerate it you just let go and then gently come back to your breath that's the practice instruction so there's no exclusion of that harshness there's no lingering in that harshness if it happens again one second later sent just repeat the instruction and then as you practice that on the cushion perhaps when you're in a meeting you know telling someone you don't like your job anymore and you want to quit or you're having dinner with someone

you want to tell them you're in love with them or you're no longer in love with them or you want to ask for something from a teacher then and you hear that harshness, you could apply that same technique. Just see that, separate from it in some way, and then bring your attention back to what you're doing, your meal, your meeting, your whatever it is. So it's actually such an obnoxious, writery thing to do, but I did write about this in my book. You know, you can work on those things through psychological means,

very valuable. And you sort of, in that way, try to find the, you know, if you were using the wave and particle analogy, a psychological approach can help you work with the through line of harshness,

why it is, what sparks it, what diminishes it, and so on. And so psychological approaches work with those things as waveforms. And the meditative approach works with them as particles, like the moment, pop that, pop that, pop that, pop that. And so these two together can be very beneficial in working with this extreme unkindness toward oneself. pop that, pop that. And so these two together can be very beneficial in working with this extreme unkindness toward oneself. Usually both are required, some measure both.

Anyway, please be nice to yourself, Marcia, because you're awesome. I've always looked up to you as a teacher and mentor, your own staff at Good Life Project, when I was there a few years ago. We were eating dinner at Jonathan's house maybe a year or two ago, and you were telling this ridiculous story that made me so appreciate you as a teacher

because I was kind of hitting a plateau in my own practice and beating myself up over and over in my husband's progress. And you told this ridiculous story about being on retreat and replaying the entire movie Stepbrothers in your head. No, no, 40-year-old virgin. Oh, Stepbrothers. Come on, get your facts straight there. I felt like that was the most compassionate thing I heard from another meditation teacher.

Oh, God, that's so funny. I'd be delighted to share that story. I love the movie 40-Year-Old Virgin. I've probably seen it like 10 times. I love it. And I was on a long retreat. It was like a 30-day retreat. Practiced 7 in the morning until 9 at night.

You know, with walking meditations and whatever. But basically, you're on your hiney and I was like, this sucks. I've just run through everything. I hate it. I'm so

bored. This is so hard. It's like 9 a.m. On the first day. Exactly. I'm like, I cannot take this. The person next to me is breathing weirdly and is bothering me. Why do they have to breathe at all?

And I'm like, I know what I'll do. I'm going to watch a friggin movie and I like I could watch every frame of 40 year old virgin because I've seen it so many times so I just started watching it and I would come to the really funny parts and I would laugh and I would

but I was just like, fuck it. I just... But, you know, don't do that. I remember when you were training before you told that story, and then it just kind of skyrocketed. And you were just trying to do it very fast. And before, just jump in really quick. There's one point that that reinforces also that,

Breeze over really quickly, but I think it's so important, which is that, because my experience on the mat also is, there's nothing magical that happens when I sit. And there's a mythology that the white light comes when you sit in meditation and everything is good in the world and you start to float and everything, you feel amazing, right? And then you go out into life, and then you face reality.

The truth is, sitting is really normal, regular experience, at least for me, and it seems like for you too. It's not like the magic doesn't happen on the mat for me. It happens in almost like 100 barely perceptible ways as you move through the rest of the day. And I think it's just, it's such a good expectation, not even expectation, but just an invitation to explore that possibility for you is to not judge whether the meditation is doing what it needs to do based on what's happening on the mat, but to actually

look at how your life is unfolding over a period of years. Absolutely. I totally agree. And why does sitting on the ground doing nothing do that? I don't know. But it is really, really interesting. Yeah. So why don't we make this the last question? And Greg, I think, right?

Yeah, hi Susan. Hi. So a lot of us in here are high performers and we're driven and there's a lot of stuff that we want to do to build our businesses. And for me, I found that you mentioned control early on in your conversation. And I find that for a lot of driven, high performing people, they like to strategize and plan to get that control. And so for me, my reaction to uncertainty sometimes is to not kind of let myself feel anxiety, but plan more and control more. And because a lot of that drive comes from feeling like I'm the focus of control, that I am in cause,

and I put that on me, and it's very hard to step back and say, some things are out of my control, there is uncertainty, so I think it's important to have both the intention and the okay, that's early, but I'm wondering if you have any advice or wisdom for times when it really is uncertain, and how to kind of balance with both of those. And I guess the fear is that by getting into uncertainty and letting go of control, that I'll no longer be able to achieve and do and do things that maybe feel bad about the world. Right.

Yeah, there's a lot of questions in there, good ones. First... Glad to ask you, not me. Well, I'm a very driven person, I would say, and extremely ambitious. So I'm not coming from some retreat monastic place, you know, when I'm answering this question. So just for what that's worth. I think what I'm hearing in your question is, is there some way that I can acknowledge the truth of uncertainty and also plan to make something certain because I have

to or I want to? Is that what I'm sort of thinking is you're saying is there a way to be sort of comfortable with some sort of thinking is, you're saying, is there a way to be sort of comfortable with some degree of uncertainty, but then pull some sort of parachute cord when I have to actually get things done? Or things are really difficult? How do I make an acceptance of uncertainty without sacrificing my ability to control what I can't control? I feel like there's a scenario where I could just be up here with uncertainty and go hang out and not do anything anymore. See, right there, comfortable with uncertainty and then hang out and not do anything anymore. See, that was right there, comfortable with uncertainty

and then hang out and not do anything are not the same. So Jonathan's story is a perfect example of using uncertainty to, and he did happen to write a book about it, so he embraced the sort of moment of this guy's attacking me I don't know what to do what's happening here and then he opened to it and he saw the true the truer underlying dynamic and was able to meet the situation much more

effectively and directly and control it in a way that he could not have if he was kind of just trying to be okay with everything. So it was a profound tool for accomplishing control. So comfortable with uncertainty or embracing uncertainty, first of all, you don't have to worry about embracing uncertainty because, my friends, I can tell you that it is embracing you constantly. And if you ever become concerned, like, hey, where's my friend uncertainty? Well, she's right here. So you don't have to try to embrace uncertainty. Instead, I would suggest, notice.

You have to make up your own mind. Is it true that everything is uncertain? So you have to notice in your own world, where is uncertainty? Where is certainty? What can I be certain of? Can I really be certain of it? Don't ever fall back on beliefs or Buddhist notions or any notions, but investigate for yourself, where is uncertainty in my life? What can I actually control? And what can't I control?

If you would allow me to disabuse you of the notion that relating with uncertainty is a kind of, plunges you into a laissez-faire life because it actually does the opposite. It makes you capable of sharper, more certain movements on the spot. And when you're trying to control something that's threatening to go out of control, that sharp presence is your best friend.

So I love this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing it. Yeah every time we hang out I learn more. I hope you guys have learned more. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm guessing there's a pretty good bet that you've gotten something out of this episode, some nugget, some idea. If that is right and you feel like sharing, then by all means, go ahead. We love when you share these conversations and get the word out. And if you wouldn't mind, I would so appreciate if you would just take a few seconds, jump onto iTunes or use your app, and just give us a quick rating or review. When you do that, it helps get the word out, helps let more people know about the conversations we're hosting here, and it gives us all the ability to spread the word and make a bigger difference in more people's lives. As always, thank you so much for your kindness, your wisdom, and your attention. Wishing you a fantastic rest of the week. I'm Jonathan Fields, your wisdom, and your attention. Wishing you a fantastic rest of the

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