Good Life Project - Mel Robbins | The High 5 Habit & Beyond

Episode Date: September 27, 2021

Mel Robbins is one of the leading voices in personal development and transformation and an international bestselling author. Her work includes the global phenomenon The 5 Second Rule, four #1 bestselling audiobooks, the #1 podcast on Audible, as well as signature online courses that have changed the lives of more than half a million students worldwide and now her groundbreaking new book, The High 5 Habit. As one of the most widely booked and followed public speakers in the world, Mel coaches more than 60 million people online every month and videos featuring her work have more than a billion views online, including her TEDx talk, which is one of the most popular of all time.But, I also know Mel in a different way. She’s a dear friend of mine, with a fierce intellect, a giant heart and desire to make a genuine difference in people’s lives, starting with her own. She shares, very publicly, her own inner dance with anxiety, compulsion, negativity, and judgment, in a real, relatable, non-sugar-coated way. Mel has found herself at the center of storms that left her thinking “I can’t take another thing” more than once. In fact, the last few years landed her in just such a tornado of calamity. Yet, somehow, in those moments, she seems to gain access to ideas that become tools that turn everything around. And the moment she feels their impact in her own life, she’s off on a quest to understand how and why they work, then share them with the world. This is what she did with The 5 Second Rule and, now, The High 5 Habit, which became her second global phenomenon before the book was even released. We dive into The High 5 Habit, but also explore her take on relationships, parenting, mindset, vulnerability, transparency and beyond.You can find Mel at: The High 5 Challenge | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Brené Brown about vulnerability and bravery.My new book is available!Order Sparked: Discover Your Unique Imprint for Work that Makes You Come Alive today!-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am super excited to share a dear friend in today's episode, Mel Robbins. So Mel is one of the leading voices in personal development and transformation. She's an international bestselling author. Her works include The Global Phenomenon, The Five Second Rule, four number one bestselling audiobooks, the number one podcast on Audible, as well as signature online courses that have changed the lives of more than half a million students worldwide, and now her groundbreaking new book, The High Five Habit. As one of the most widely booked and followed public speakers in the world, Mel coaches more than 60 million people online every month, and videos featuring her work have more than a billion views online, including her TEDx talk, which is

one of the most popular of all time. But as I mentioned, I know Mel in a different way. She's a dear friend of mine with this fierce intellect, a giant heart, and a desire to make a genuine difference in people's lives. And often that starts with her own. She shares very publicly her own inner dance with anxiety and compulsion, negativity and judgment in this real, relatable, non-sugar-coated way. Mel has found herself at the center of storms that left her thinking, I can't take another thing more than once. In fact, the last few years landed her in just such a tornado of calamity. And yet somehow in those moments, she seems to gain access to ideas that become tools

that turn everything around. And the moment she feels their impact in her own life, she's off on this quest to understand how and why they work. What's the science behind it? What is the basis, the rationale? And then she shares them with the world. This is what she did with the five second rule. And now the high five habit, which became her second global phenomenon

before the book was even released. We dive into the high five habit and also why she tells you, don't dismiss it because it seems deceptively simple. There is power underneath this simple idea. And then we also explore a wide range of ideas and areas, things like relationships, parenting, mindset, vulnerability, transparency, and beyond. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

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to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push, find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. We've been friends for more than a minute now. I consider you sort of chosen family. And there's an immediate connection when we first met, but I don't know if you remember this. We actually first met a chunk of years back. It was backstage during one of these giant events with thousands of people. And we were both speaking and we were crossing each other in the hallway. And I think we kind of knew who each other were, but we never connected. And there was like this moment where-

Oh, I knew exactly who you were. I knew exactly who you were. I actually was stalking you. So it was not a chance encounter for me. Highly intentional. Got it. Got it. Got it. So we knocked into each other and then we just started talking and it was sort of like immediate, immediate, immediate connection. But there was something in you and you were telling me what your world was like then. And you were telling me sort of like the year that you had just come off of, which if I recall was something like 150 keynote speeches in a 12 month window. And I was sitting there just asking you, I was like, how are you even standing upright at this moment in time? And are you okay? And I remember that was my first experience of you. And you were kind of like pausing and saying, it was almost like,

no matter what came out of your mouth, your body was saying, I honestly don't know at this moment. I'm surprised I didn't start crying because the truth is I was not okay. And I was, despite all of the success that was happening around me, I was not in control of it. And I was coming from two very debilitating mindsets. One is scarcity. So the scarcity mindset that it would all run out and it was just luck. And that I needed to say yes, because this was not this, this success and this momentum that I was experiencing was not because of me. It was because of something outside of me. And there was another keynote speaker and bestselling author who had been in the business for a long time ahead of me. And I already felt like I didn't belong because when I got into speaking, you know, I wasn't like,

um, you, I wasn't accomplished. I did not have a podcast. I did not have New York times, bestselling books. I did not like have a brand. I sort of stumbled into it. And I'll never forget. There was this person that I deeply admired whose name I will not say who said, you better take everything you can get because speakers come and speakers go, and you're the hot speaker right now, but it's going to end. And that struck the fear of God in me. And so that opinion became truth. And I also was coming out of a rock bottom moment in my life, Jonathan, where a lot of people know the story. I'll keep it brief, but in 2007, 2008, when the housing crisis hit the United States,

I lost my job and my husband had a restaurant business that was going under and we were 800 grand in debt. At the time that I met you, where on the outside, everybody was seeing, you know, this extraordinary rocket ship of success on the corporate speaking circuit. The fact is, we still had liens on our house. We were still a half a million dollars in debt. We still had maxed out credit cards. And so every speech felt so necessary. And I was grateful on one hand to be as busy as I was. And every check that came in went to paying down debt

and went to getting out of survival mode. But given that I was in a scarcity mindset and I was starting to equate being busy with being needed and loved, it was a recipe for disaster. Yeah. I mean, and I'm sure so many people can relate to that. I mean, different circumstances, different facts in their life, right? But either in a moment or trying to figure out a way out of a moment or slowly getting out of this space where everything seems like it's rock bottom. Somebody opens a window

or maybe you open a door or a window yourself somehow by just acting in every possible way, saying yes to every possible thing. And all of a sudden momentum starts to build that feels like it's pulling you out of this space. And like the early part of the rocket ship is like, oh, hell yeah, this is working. We're going to be okay.

And then there's that, like, there's a moment I feel like that happens so often with so many of us where you switch from saying, okay, so this is what I want. I have a sense of agency and control. I'm building something powerful and I'm digging myself out of whatever I'm digging myself out of. And this is going to end. And it could be tomorrow. I don't know what that's going to be.

So I just got to get everything that I can get while I'm in the middle of this. And it goes from something where it's potentially joyful and really helping to improve your situation to something where you now feel like you're almost building. You've effectively built another rocket ship, which is built out of steel bars. Oh my gosh. You know? Totally.

And from the outside looking in though, it doesn't look like that at all. So especially with you as a speaker on stage, so many people looking to you and saying, yes, yes, yes, I want to be her. And then knowing that your inner experience of that moment is so different. It's so relatable. One of my curiosities about you is your willingness to share experiences like that. And we've talked about this just privately a number of times over the years. There's something in me where there's a wall that goes up and I'm actually actively trying to allow myself to be more openly vulnerable, which is quite an exercise for me. You seem to go to that place where when you're experiencing

something like this, yes, in that moment, you shared what was going on with me, but you're also incredibly open about sharing those moments and those experiences and the fact that, you know, your life looks a particular way on the outside, but let me tell you what's going on on the inside. And I guess I'm curious what's underneath that. What is the compulsion? What is the intention underneath it? Okay. So let's talk first about the compulsion, okay. Of being as open as I am and just kind of saying what is, because there are very few things that I won't talk about. One of the things that is on the don't talk about list is anything that's going on with our three kids that might infringe on their privacy or might embarrass them. So if I'm going to talk about my kids or share a story, I seek permission first. So that's number one. I don't, I don't, I'm not an open book there.

I'm also not an entirely open book in my marriage. And I think the reason why is that's really important for your most important relationship, other than the relationship that you have with yourself, to be one that has some intimacy to it. So my kids don't know everything that's going on in my marriage. My therapist and my marriage therapist knows everything that's going on in my marriage, and Chris and I do, but I think it builds a level of trust and something that's sacred that's also important. I don't want my marriage to become a teaching vehicle. I want it to be something that's for me. But the reason why I find it so much more freeing and easy and just easy to tell the complete truth is because I spent so many years of my life lying and trying to be somebody else. And it goes beyond even just people pleasing. Like I think that there was so much self loathing, Jonathan, and so much judgment. And I think most people feel this way, that I got locked into believing that the person that I was

and the person that I wasn't, wasn't okay. That I had to be someone else. I had to have different opinions. I had to manage my reaction in order to be accepted, liked, and loved. And I think that part of that legacy comes from a moment of childhood trauma, which happened when I was in the fourth grade. And I had an experience where our family was on a ski trip and all the kids from multiple families were in a bunk room. And I woke up after being sound asleep to having an older kid on top of me.

And I completely disassociated. I don't even know how it ended. And in the span of things that could happen to you in terms of sexual abuse, this was really mild. I mean, this was a one-time situation. I would classify it as confusing, not scary. And the next morning I woke up and my nervous system was on edge. There was a tremendous sense that something bad had happened. And I think one of the flaws in human design, there is so much extraordinary elegance in the human machine,

the mind, the body, the spirit, how so many miraculous things come together to create you. But there is one profound flaw that every human being has. And that is when bad shit happens to you as a child, you do not have the life experience. You typically don't have the support system and you are also not hardwired to go as a child. This shit is fucked up. These adults should be arrested. What that kid did to me is wrong. Instead, every human being turns it back on themselves and says, there must be something wrong with me. There must be something wrong with me. And sure enough, that morning, I don't even know, how old are you in fourth grade? Am I like 10, 11? I don't even know how old you are. I go down the stairs,

my mom's cooking breakfast, all the other moms are there. And my mom turns around, Jonathan, and says, hi, honey, how'd you sleep? I can remember this moment with every fiber of my being. My nervous system went on high alert, not because of my mom, keep in mind, but because the kid was sitting at the kitchen table. I knew what my mother would do. She grew up on a cattle farm. She would have taken that spatula and knocked that kid into next week. I didn't know what the kid was going to do. And in that moment, when my nervous system revved up and went warning, warning, warning, warning, my fourth grade brain decided to lie. And I said, fine, which wasn't true. And guess what? It worked. Nobody got upset. I didn't get in trouble. And I believe that was

the moment, no kidding, that I decided it's better to assess what's happening and say what you think you should say instead of just saying what's so. And I think, Jonathan, boy, for the next almost 40 years, that was been chronic. And I finally started to understand that the core kind of issue that I have in my mind actually is ADHD, not anxiety. And I finally started to heal and to interrupt the pattern of lying, the pattern of people pleasing, the pattern of insecurity, the patterns of self-loathing. That's when I started telling the truth. And it was interesting because when I first started telling the truth, oh, we're $800,000 in debt. Oh, my anxiety was so bad I couldn't get out of bed. Oh, like I, you know, I cheated on every boyfriend I ever, you know, was with because I didn't know how to cope with disappointing people. So I would just bail, which is a classic

pattern I've learned from Dr. Daniel Amen. When you have certain types of ADHD, something I never knew. When I started to piece together with compassion, what happened to me? What are the patterns that I developed to survive the shit I've been through? What are the patterns that run on autopilot, like lying and people pleasing and hiding information and all that stuff that don't serve me anymore. They're exhausting. And so one of the things that's interesting is now that I've broken the pattern of lying, the pattern of omitting, the pattern of avoiding, the pattern of trying to please everybody, the pattern of trying to pretend I'm somebody that I'm not, it's fascinating. It's liberating.

And so when people inevitably ask me, because I get asked a lot or I get complimented a lot, you're so authentic, you're so vulnerable. It doesn't feel vulnerable at all. In fact, it feels very vulnerable when you lie because you know you're hiding something. And so I feel weaker when I lie. I feel strong and free when I'm completely honest about what's happening. And then that's only gotten reinforced because the more I share, not just the ugly stuff, but the day-to-day crap, like I think most people would find it surprising that I still need the five-second rule to get out of bed. Getting out of bed is the hardest thing I do all day. That's 13 years later. And when people hear that and you share, I even think the little struggles can be even more profound.

It validates for anybody that hears it, that you're not crazy and that you're not the only one that feels lonely and emotionally exhausted. And you're not the only one that has to pick yourself up every day. And you're not the only one that sometimes feels like the world is aimed against you. It doesn't matter how much you have, because what you and I talk about, Jonathan, is the experience of living that you have on the inside. Yeah. I mean, the notion of just offering yourself to the world and knowing that doing it any other way effectively continues to propagate harm against you. But also it creates this facade,

which becomes a weight, which gets heavier and heavier and heavier every time you walk with it wrapped around you. It is a little counterintuitive to just say, let me just be as transparent as I possibly can. And the fact that you do that allows the weight to never accumulate. But at the same time, it does something else, which you referenced, which is it lets people know that they're not alone in their experience of being human, of messing up, of feeling

certain ways that in theory, you're not supposed to feel. And I feel like right now, especially so many, there's such an epidemic of loneliness and we've never been more connected and more surrounded yet more lonely. And especially over the last 18 months, this feeling of isolation so many have that there's something really powerful about stepping into the world in a way that's observable, where simply sharing your own humanity allows others to feel a sense of like they're not an outsider in their own lives, in their communities, to themselves. I want to ask you about something that you shared though earlier. So when you were sort of mapping out the priority of importance of your relationships,

first you shared your relationship with relationships. First you shared your relationship with yourself, then you shared your relationship with your partner. And I'm curious about this because, so you're a mom, you got three incredible kids and folks would hear this potentially and say, but wait a minute, what about your relationship with your kids? Like, how do you make the decision that says the single most important relationship in my life outside of my own self-relationship is my partner in life rather than my kids? Is it actually, I'm just, I'm really curious about that because I think a lot of people would look at that and say, but shouldn't you just, the minute you become a parent, shouldn't that relationship between you and your children be the single most important thing? And you're like, and I know you've thought

deeply about this and you have really strong feelings about it. Yeah, I do. I have very strong feelings about this. So I'm glad that you also underscored that the most important relationship is the one that you have with yourself. Because I think that the reason why most of us lie is we don't realize that all those uncomfortable things that happen all day long don't mean that there's something wrong with you. In fact, I think it's part of the normal experience of life to feel stuck and overwhelmed and find it hard to change. And the more that you normalize that, the more that I think you can reach anybody that feels alone and isolated and is profoundly, you know, beating themselves up, saying what I used to say to myself, what's wrong with you? Why can't you, why aren't you like that? Like just constant

beating up of self. And that relationship that you have with yourself is the single most important thing because it's the foundation of every relationship. And, you know, in terms of my partnership, see, I'm a very pragmatic and strategic person. I'm what I like to call an outcome thinker. What do I want? Well, when I got married, I wanted to have a relationship that lasted my lifetime or my partner's lifetime. Whoever dies first, I want it to go the distance. And so that means I need to show up in a way that's consistent with making that happen, which means our marriage, which is far from perfect. We celebrated 25 years this year. It was one of the most challenging years of our marriage. And I am in it and I show up in it in a certain way because I want to go the distance, which means I got to work on myself. And so my marriage, the way that I look at it isn't, you know, it's interesting because the way that I really think about it is the secret to a happy marriage is to marry somebody who's happy. I mean, because then

you're not going to focus on them. You can, you know, really need to focus on yourself because the truth is the only way to improve your marriage is to improve yourself. The only way to have a happier marriage is to work on your own happiness because you bring that to the relationship. And the reason why the kids are second is because the entire purpose of having children and your role as an adult is to help your kids become themselves. They're supposed to move out. They're supposed to create a life of their own. They are supposed to be with you in your household for a certain period of time. And then they are supposed to leave with decision-making skills and self

awareness and hopefully enough life lessons that you have modeled, not that you have taught them in terms of speaking, but you've actually modeled so that they can know their values and know who they are and feel seen and heard and celebrated by themselves so that they can go create a life for themselves. Too many parents put their entire egos into what their children are doing. We see, you know, you see it on every soccer field or football line or lacrosse team, every single parent there, the bumper stickers on the back of the car, a display, not for your kid, but to everybody else about what you did as a parent. I mean, it's bananas. Your job as a parent, in my opinion, is to help your child figure out who

they are. And they may not like what you like. They may not go to the school you went to. A lot of times being an incredible parent means giving your kids permission to do life the way that calls them. They might not go to college. They might not be in the profession that you're in. To me, if they chart their own course, that means a job well done. And so when I think about the end game, the end game is to launch individuals into their lives. That's why they can't be the most important thing, because if they're the most important thing to me, then I'm going to get attached to their outcome. Do you make a distinction between getting attached to their outcome and attached to their well-being? Well, it's interesting. That's the outcome I care about. So here's a

little thing that everybody should steal. From the very beginning, when we would go to parent-teacher conferences, you know, back in elementary school when you're sitting in those little chairs and your knees hit at the underside of the table, and we would start to launch in, Chris and I would both go, oh, hold on a second. Before we launch into their schoolwork, the only thing we care about is what kind of human being they are. Describe the person that you see. Describe how they are with their peers. How do they treat you? We care about who they are, not what they're doing in terms of academics. And I think that focus for us, their emotional well-being, was the single biggest factor. And thankfully, Chris and I were both aligned on it to I think really nurturing a philosophy that was about helping people become who they are.

And that was one thing that I think signaled to teachers, that signaled to us, that kept us on track with are our kids happy? Are they growing? Are they telling us the hard stuff? Are they kind? Are they curious? Are they telling us the hard stuff? Are they kind? Are they curious? Are they self-reflective?

Are they journaling? Are they talking to us about some of the problems that they're facing? Are they surrounded by a good group of people? Those are the kinds of things that we care about. And here's the thing, the hardest thing, you can't micromanage it. Like part of the best lessons that your kids are going to learn are the ones where they fall flat on their face. And so one of the hardest habits that I had to break, Jonathan, because when you struggle with anxiety, if your kids have anxiety, it's really triggering and you want to save them from everything.

But the fastest way to make your kids more anxious is to rescue them. If you want your kids to be more resilient, if you want them to learn how to feel anxiety, which is normal, and to know that it will pass and that they can soothe themselves, you have to stop rescuing every situation. You have to stop intervening with coaches and with teachers. You have to stop making life so easy that they don't feel anything. Because when life gets hard, which it's going to, they are going to collapse emotionally. I think it's one of the reasons why you're seeing a rise in anxiety in college. It's why you're seeing that big report that just came out about the number of boys that feel lost in school.

It's because too many people in our generation have stepped in and basically curated their kid's childhood and made sure that they don't bruise or they don't bump or that nobody does anything. Like it's just damaging, I believe. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think we have very similar parenting philosophies. And I mean, you also touched on the fact

that you and Chris were on the same page with this, which I think is a huge blessing because I've known many parents where they're completely like one parent is like, it's all about academic success and tracking. And the other parent is, I just want a happy and healthy human being who knows how to love and be loved. Now, one thing I should say, Jonathan, is look, the public school in the town that we're in is phenomenal. If I were in a neighborhood that has a lousy public school and I'm fighting to get my kids into a charter school and I'm fighting for representation and I'm fighting for tutors, I would show up very differently as a parent and as an advocate. What I'm talking about is emotionally. You should not and cannot solve your kids' problems. You need to

listen to them. One of the greatest parenting tips that I've ever learned, I wish I knew who told me this, but start saying this to your kids. This is a game changer. When your kids start crying, complaining, arguing, when they're upset about anything just say this do you want advice or do you just want me to listen it's incredible 99 of the time my kids do not want advice they want to be heard and so that sentence is more for me to check myself because i you know being somebody who's anxious and also you know my my winning who's anxious and also, you know, my winning formula is to solve problems. Oh, you got a problem? I'll help you fix it. Really what you want to do, and this goes with people in your organization too, the teams that

you're managing, it's about teaching people how to solve problems for themselves, how to think critically, how to think through what they value and what they think might be the proper thing to do based on their values and the situation. Right. And you can't do that if you're actually protecting them from ever even knowing that there's a problem or experiencing it or grappling with it. And the flip side of this is, if you have a kid or like you said, somebody in a team in your company that you're leading and they bump up against something tough and then you create a container that says, I'm here, like we're going to give you all the

tools you need to move through it, but you need to figure out your way through this. And I'll be a sounding board as you do it. And then you kind of step back and just be there, like walk side by side rather than intervene. And then they actually figure it out, right? The sense of esteem, the sense of accomplishment, the sense of, wait, I just did that? Like, I thought this was impossible and I just figured this out? Like when we step in and we solve the problem for them, or we stop them from even feeling the context and the depth of the problem, we don't realize, I think, that we're also taking away from them that glorious moment when they

figure it out and that feeling of, wait, I'm capable of this? And so not only we're stopping them from understanding that life can be hard and developing the skills and the tools, but we're literally taking from them the experience that you get when you do move through it, when you do succeed, which is an amazing feeling. You also made me remember something that's really important because this is what stopped me in my tracks.

And I think it might've been a parenting book that Poe Bronson wrote with somebody else. I don't know. This is kind of like rattling around in my mind somewhere. But what you just said made me remember this. And that is this. We think, just like you said, that you're helping somebody when you write their essay, or when you solve their problem, or when you call that parent and complain to the parent about how their kid treated your kid, you think you're helping. And yes, you're right, Jonathan, you are robbing your child of the pride that comes from

facing the challenging moments of life and learning how to push through that fear and anxiety and advocate for yourself. But you're also doing something else. Oh, this is from one of the world's leading experts on kids and anxiety. When you solve your kids' problems, what you are communicating is, I don't trust you. You're not strong enough. You can't face this,

which is why kids are now crumbling when they get to college and crumbling when they graduate and that to me i remember reading that it's a it's a woman up in new hampshire that's a expert in anxiety and kids i remember reading that and thinking you're right because when i allow my kid which i did for six months to sleep on the floor of our room, because they were having crushing anxiety at the age of 10, I was communicating every time I allowed that to happen. You're right, Oakley, you can't face this on your own. Instead of walking them back upstairs and saying, you can absolutely get through the night, honey. And tell you what,

I'm going to wait outside. You can, you can get through in your bed. I'm going to wait outside. Trust me. And then once you're asleep, I'll be downstairs. If you have to come back downstairs, you have to come back to Sarah's, but I'm going to walk you back up here because you have the ability to face this. That's like, to me, that was like, ding, ding, ding. First of all, I had to go to therapy because I felt like, oh my God've screwed up my kids i've been doing the opposite of what i'm supposed to do like oh shit and that was the moment it was when oakley was sleeping on our bedroom floor because he was having crushing panic attacks we come to find out jonathan the panic attacks were because he had undiagnosed dyslexia and every day he sat in school and couldn't do anything. And so the anxiety was coming from something

that wasn't getting addressed. So all of it got unpacked in that moment and boom, did it shift everything about how I was showing up as a parent. Yeah, I mean, that's such a powerful example. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

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Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. One of the things that sort of we've been talking about without talking about it is the notion of being equipped with the tools and the practices that would actually allow you to say, okay, so this is brutal. But I have a tool set and I have these practices that will help me get through it. You referenced earlier in our conversation, this thing, the five second rule, you know, which is something where in a very dark window where you describe, you know, huge amounts of debt, restaurant collapsing, you losing your job, all sorts of terrible things happening in the economy, you end up developing this tool, kind of like it just comes to you. This is like something that's

channeled into you, the five second rule. If there's something that you need to do that will get you from a place of languishing and inaction to action, you literally count five, four, three, two, one, and do it. And then you're like, wait a minute, this is working. I'm going to keep doing this. And this thing that seems almost too simple to be effective becomes one of the most powerful change makers in your life. And then you turn around and say, I'm going to share this with the world. And then that effectively becomes this, what you described earlier as a rocket ship for you to then step into this new domain of speaking and share this idea with the world, which

has now changed literally millions of people's lives. And it was interesting because, so this tool and a new tool that you're sharing, the High Five Habit, which I want to talk about in a minute, I've heard you on stage talking first about the five second rule. And a couple minutes in, when you're sharing this, before you even share what it is, with thousands of people, you say something like, listen, what I'm about to tell you is going to sound so simple, absurdly simple, that you are going to want to dismiss it as how could something so ridiculously simple be so incredibly effective? And I'm just going to ask you to suspend judgment and do it. And I thought that was so

powerful because how many times I wondered when I first heard you say that, the immediate thought in my head was, how many times have I dismissed something that could have been profoundly impactful in my life simply because I thought it was just too easy. It was just too straightforward. It was just too simple. And things have to be more complicated for them to actually work. And I think so many of us have a really similar storyline going in our heads. Oh, a thousand percent. I think because life feels complicated, you think the solution needs to be, and it's actually the opposite. And I say that with such conviction. This is the stupidest thing you'll ever hear. Do not dismiss what I'm about to tell you, because it will change

your life. And I can say that not only because of what's happened in my life, because I say it because I'm standing shoulder to shoulder with millions of people whose lives have been changed. And I also say it with conviction because the very first morning that I used it, I almost didn't. I almost swatted the idea of counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, and launching myself out of bed. The whole idea was move fast enough so that if you move fast enough, you're not in bed when the anxiety hits and pins you to it. I almost didn't do it. And if I hadn't counted backwards that Tuesday morning in February in 2008, my life would have gone in a different direction. I'd probably be divorced. I'd probably be an alcoholic.

My family would be torn apart. That one decision to place a bet on myself to do something, to try something stupid, it changed everything. And so I stand on that stage knowing that if I didn't say that, the resignation, the beat down that most people feel, the overwhelm, you would be crazy to not dismiss what I was about to tell you. Because it sounds absurd given how big life can feel and how overwhelming it can feel. And, you know, intellectually, we all know you gotta change one day at a time, one action at a time, but it's the how you put that into place in your life that, you know, that's why the five-second rule

is so helpful. It's a tool. It moves you from thought to action. It breaks old self-sabotaging patterns. It's a starting ritual to get you started. And it has changed millions of people's lives. And I'm going to tell you something, even sitting here talking to you, knowing that 111 people have stopped themselves from attempting suicide by counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, and asking for help. I'm going to go

on record and say the high five habit is an even bigger and deeper and more meaningful idea and tool. And the reason why is the five second rule will get you started. The five second rule will keep you in motion. The five second rule will give you courage and confidence and motivation when you need it. It will help you do the things that you need to do in order to change your life, in order to achieve your goals, in order to stop holding yourself back. But it doesn't solve the deeper problem. And the deeper problem is you have a

habit of tearing yourself down. You have a habit of judging yourself. You have a habit of focusing on what's going wrong. And those negative habits are destroying your relationship with yourself. They are destroying your esteem. They're destroying your happiness. And so this tool that I, again, stumbled into during a very low moment has had a bigger change in my day-to-day life than the 10 years of the five-second rule has in just using it for the past year. Yeah. I mean, it is deceptively simple. And when you first told this to me, I'm like, huh, okay. And then I was just like, all right, well, like Mel's always got something much deeper

underneath like this sort of thing. And I know the way your brain works, you're like Mel's always got something much deeper underneath like this sort of thing. And I know the way your brain works, you're like, okay, I am now going to go and do the research and the science. And so the high five habit, this is something that literally came to you again, after moving through this season of profound disruption, upset, suffering, just like a metric ton of things not going your way. You know, and- And those are just the things the lawyer also let us talk about.

Right, exactly. You know, and you effectively wake up in the morning and you're looking in the mirror and you end up high-fiving yourself. Goofy as it sounds, right? It does something to you. So you show up and you do it again the next morning and next morning. And similar to your own, everything starts with you, your own personal experience. Like, ah, like I kind of did this and it made me feel different.

Oh, let me try it again. And it's making me feel even more different. And then it's almost like, and this is literally simply looking in the mirror and high-fiving yourself, right? It sounds like you said, like, how could this possibly do anything? Oh, it's so ridiculously cheesy. Yeah. yourself. It sounds like you said, how could this possibly do anything? And yet it does. Oh, it's so ridiculously cheesy. Yeah. And so you start doing it and so many things start to change. And like you said, it's almost

like this interesting bookend or it's like the five-second rule gets you up off the couch. And then this starts to rewire your state of mind so that it puts you in a stance of action and confidence rather than victimhood, even once you're up off the couch and you're in a place to take that first action. It's like, but what about all the rest throughout the day? And what about the way that I see myself? And then what about the way that I see my world? When you talk about it, part of you also says, okay, now that I'm feeling this in my body and my life, and it's actually, for some reason, it's helping me turn everything around. I got to know what's happening in my head. So you go on this sort of like this quest for knowledge, you know, and you're like, okay, is there actually science behind this? And what is it? And in fact, there

is, which, you know, so I remember when you first told me, I'm like, all right, sounds interesting, you know? And I pull back and then I come back, I don't know, a year later and you show me, I guess what must've been sort of like the manuscript of the book. And I'm reading through it. I'm like, wait, what? You know, there's all this science and there's this first walk me through what's actually happening when you do this simple act. Oh, it's incredible. I really want to put you at the scene because it's jaw dropping how foundational this is in terms of what I've discovered. So, you know, I wake up one morning feeling overwhelmed and beaten down and stressed

out. We've all had that feeling, right? Of you just wake up, the stress is right there. You're staring at the ceiling. I don't even need to tell you what's going on. It doesn't even matter because it's a feeling that you feel overwhelmed by your life. I use the five second rule, five, four, three, two, one, because I still 13 years later have to use it to get out of bed. And I make my bed and I make my bed every morning. And that morning I made it so I didn't climb back into it. I drag myself to the bathroom. I'm brushing my teeth. And here's the thing. You talk about morning routines, you talk about habits, you talk about mindset, you talk about science. The fact of the matter is we all have

a particular habit every morning. And that habit is to ignore yourself or to criticize yourself when you see yourself in the mirror. And as I'm brushing my teeth on this particular, very low, challenging morning, I catch a glimpse of myself, Jonathan, and I think, oh my God, you look like hell. And I look at the woman standing in the mirror and she's got dark circles under her eyes and her gray hair is coming in and she looks haggard. She looks exhausted. She looks beaten down. Honestly, I felt sorry for her. And, you know, the thing is, is that what's interesting is I, you know, started kind of picking apart her tired reflection. I started to think about the day ahead. And that, of course, was negative. I woke up late. I got to eight minutes for the Zoom call. The dog still needs to be walked.

And here's what's fascinating. If you had walked into the bathroom, Jonathan, I would have turned on a dime. I would have been like, Jonathan, I know life sucks. It's not fair. You don't deserve this. But come on, dude. If anybody can face this shit, you can. I would have known what to say.

I would have been energized to help you. But standing there seeing myself, I couldn't think of anything to say. And here's the other thing that's really important. I don't think I would have believed it because I didn't feel confident. I didn't feel resilient. I felt beaten down. And whatever it was, I didn't even have a bra on. I just suddenly raised my hand and high-fived the woman in the mirror because she needed it. And look, lightning did not strike that moment. It's not like my life magically changed. That's not how this shit works. But something shifted. I felt my shoulders drop. I felt my chin lift. And I laughed because it's so stupid to high five yourself. I mean, just like the scene itself is dumb. And so I laugh at how corny it was,

but then my mood changed and I thought, all right, this does suck, but you know what, here we go. And I sent myself into my day, but it was the second morning. The second morning is when I felt something that I've never felt in my entire life. And this is where this shit starts to get deep. So I wake up, same problem, same overwhelm. Nothing's changed about that. Five, four, three, two, one. I get out of bed. I make the bed. I start walking to the bathroom and that's when I noticed it. You know how when you're about to go to a cafe and you're going to see a friend that you really like, I'm about to walk into a cafe and see Jonathan Fields. I love this guy. How do you feel, Jonathan, when you're about to see somebody you like? You feel great. Yeah, you're excited.

You're like looking forward to it. I felt that way about the idea that I was about to see myself. I'm going to be 53 this year. I had never, ever looked forward to seeing the human being Mel Robbins in the mirror. I've looked forward to seeing what an outfit might look like or a new color eyeshadow. I have never anticipated with enthusiasm seeing myself. And as I stood there in the mirror that second morning, that's when something shifted because I actually noticed the human being I was looking at. first time feeling like I wasn't alone. I was there with myself. It's hard to describe. It's this moment of objectivity, of presence,

of depth, of intimacy with yourself. And then as I thought about the game I was going to play and how I was going to show up for myself, I raised my hand and high five myself. Now let's get into the science because this stuff is crazy. Here's the good news. The good news is your nervous system, your heart, your mind, it is already programmed to have this work because of a lifetime of experience. So yes, it's going to feel weird. It's going to feel weird based on neuroscience. You know, you're learning a new behavior. If I were to start writing with my left hand, I'm a right-hander, it would feel weird. It's new. You are breaking an old habit of staring at yourself and going, ugh, or ignoring yourself. You know, I've been shocked by how many

people, Jonathan, can't even look at themselves in the mirror. That's the habit. So it's going to feel weird to be with yourself because this is new. That's number one, expect that. But number two, as you raise your hand and you go to high five yourself, something weird's going to happen. You can't think a negative thought about yourself. You can't think a negative thought about your day because your mind isn't programmed to think anything negative when you're high fiving somebody. When you high five somebody, Jonathan, what does it communicate when you do it for somebody else? Celebration. It's an upbeat thing.

It's like, yes. Yeah. Like it's basically, it's a physicalized yes. Yes. I love you. I see you. We got this. Come on now.

Keep going. I believe in you. It communicates all of that. You've never, ever, ever given somebody an authentic high-five that you. You've never given somebody a high five like, you're going down. Like that's not what that means. And so your brain in your subconscious already has all that programming in it. The second you raise your hand to do the high five, the subconscious part of your brain takes over and it marries all that positive programming with your reflection. That's what's going on. The second thing that happens, and this has been validated by Dr. Daniel Amen, because it feels so good to get a high five and you've received

high fives in your life, your brain recognizes it and it gives you a drip of dopamine. That's why if you do this for more than five days in a row and get through the resistance, which I'm going to unpack for you because the resistance is so sad, so profoundly sad that we got to unpack it. So you get a drip of dopamine, which means you're now starting your day with a mood booster that's free, that helps you focus, that helps you be more upbeat. We know based on research that your mood in the morning impacts productivity all day long. And that's free, that helps you focus, that helps you be more upbeat. We know based on research that your mood in the morning impacts productivity all day long. And that's not all.

Dr. Amen also said that one of the reasons why you feel a little bit more energized is because your nervous system gets involved. So in life, when you wave hello to somebody, you raise your hands. When you hug somebody, you raise your hands. When you pat somebody on the back, you raise your hands. When you cross a finish line, you raise your hands. When you high five somebody, you raise your hands. When you hug somebody, you raise your hands. When you pat somebody on the back, you raise your hands. When you cross a finish line, you raise your hands. When you high five somebody, you raise your hands. These are celebratory gestures that your nervous system

already is programmed to feel. So when you start to make this a habit, your nervous system gets involved and you start to feel that celebratory energy that makes you feel a little bit more confident, a little bit more resilient. That's what I mean when I say your body is programmed to have this work for you. But now let's talk about the resistance because nine out of 10 people, nine out of 10 people resist the idea. And the reason why you're going to resist this is more to do, it's even deeper than the fact that you're

not used to doing it. It's sad. Right now, when you stand in front of that mirror, you drag with you a lifetime of judgment. If you've been abused or you've experienced trauma or you have a heartbreak or you've been abandoned, you look at that stuff and you say, it makes me damaged, unworthy, not good enough. And you see a person that's damaged and unworthy and not good enough. And you say that to yourself and you then cannot high five yourself. That's what the resistance is because you don't believe you deserve it because of those things. Or maybe you've done things like I have that you deeply regret that you've had a hard time forgiving yourself for. And you did done things like I have that you deeply regret, that you've had a hard time forgiving yourself for, and you did these things because you were surviving.

You've forgiven other people for doing these things, but you can't forgive yourself. That's the resistance that you feel. You don't see somebody worthy of a high five because you've done these bad things. So it makes you feel like you're a bad person. So that's why you don't encourage, support, celebrate, cheer, and love yourself. And there's even more. If you're somebody like me, who's an overachiever, who is married, I got to be winning. I got to be achieving because if I'm not achieving, then I'm not lovable. And you struggle with jealousy because when somebody else is winning, it means nobody's going to love you. If you're somebody that believes that the

car that you drive or the money in the bank or the number on the scale or the neighborhood that you live in or the, whether your hair is kinky or not, like if you believe all that outside stuff is what makes you worthy and lovable, you're fucked because all that stuff can get taken away. And it also sets you up for a life like I had, where you're on a plane 150 days a year, exhausted because you think you got to just do one more speech. Because if you do one more speech, that means you're that much more worthy. It's about the outside stuff. And so the resistance is, well, I haven't even done anything today. So why would I deserve a high five? And there's even more research,

but this is just like the holy cow. I want to go back to the kid thing, Jonathan, because I got the most incredible text exchange with our 21 year old daughter. Our 21 year old daughter is at the university of Southern California. She is a music student. So she's at the music conservatory as a singer songwriter. And she wrote to me the other day and she said, are you getting excited about your book? And she said, I can't wait to read it. I've been high-fiving myself in the mirror. And I said, how's the high-five working for you? And she says, well, when I do it, I don't know what to say. Because sometimes when I look in

the mirror, my first thought is you're not as pretty as the rest of the girls. And I said, well, you don't work out or I didn't write a song like a set I would. Should I still high five myself after the shower? And I said, yes, you have to keep showing up every day, trying to do a little better. That alone makes you worthy of support and celebration. You see, we have the secret to life, happiness, and motivation backwards. You think you need to accomplish something to be worthy of a high five. And then she writes, wait a minute, are you saying the fact that I exist deserves a high five? Question mark. I said, yes. And when you high five yourself for just standing there in front of the mirror, you are demonstrating that you see you and all your potential. You support you and you believe in you. And that

no matter what happened or didn't happen today, you still have your own back. And then I asked her, so what do you think about what I wrote? And she said, I love it. It makes me feel great. And then I said, could you explain why? Because maybe it'll help me explain this high five habit to everyone else. And this is what she wrote, Jonathan. Well, what the high five shows you is that you don't actually know how much you're always doing. And I think that once you start high fiving yourself every single morning, it almost allows you to be more present to everything you are doing. And it helps you recognize all those small victories. And when you compile those small victories, you can recognize all of your

accomplishments, big and small, and eventually come to believe that not only are you worth it, but you can do anything. Apparently, you're raising some pretty interesting and cool and smart kids who are still beating themselves up, you know? Right. As we probably all will continue to do, but the tools like really make a difference. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. What was so fascinating to me about that exchange was this realization that, A, the simple fact of your birth gives you worth. You don't have to do anything. And somehow we get all sorts of stuff caked on around that that makes us forget that through life and think that we have to earn our way back into worth. And it's like, no, you were born, boom, done for life. That's it. But then the realization that this is both,

it serves as a prime for your day. You know, so like you do this for the day, it makes a subtle shift in your mind. And the fact that you've now have a subtle shift in your mind means you step out into the day differently. And as you step out into the day differently, maybe you do a little bit something here and then maybe people respond to you differently because they see you carrying yourself a little bit differently. And maybe doors open a little bit more widely open, or maybe arms open to embrace you. Not because you're consciously doing something different, but because you primed your

brain to feel differently about yourself, to get a little bit closer to that feeling of, yes, I do have worth. And when you step out into the world, that radiates without you actually even consciously telling everyone around that, I'm valuable, I'm valuable, I'm valuable. It's something that people feel around your presence, which makes sense. There's a scientific phenomenon called emotional contagion, where people will literally... I remember seeing the research where they took a leader for a team and they exposed them to two different conditions. One was like 10 minutes of video of the most horrible atrocities. And then they sent them back to their team. And then they exposed them to like babies and puppy dogs and all sorts of beautiful, awesome things. They sent them back to the team. And clearly they went back to their team emotionally and psychologically different.

Even if they didn't realize, even if they thought they were putting up a facade, team felt it. And whatever mood they brought back to those other people slowly infected all of those other people. And that became the dominant emotion of sort of like everyone around them. And it's like what you're talking about to a certain extent is creating a similar prime first thing in the morning that puts you in a state where when you step out into the world, not only do you feel differently, but the world notices it and responds to you differently. And then it becomes this reinforcing cycle. And like, then things start to actually happen

in a different way. And then when you come back to the mirror a month later, two months later, three months later, you start to say to yourself, oh wait, like I'm actually now doing all these really interesting things in the world. And I did this thing because I felt better about myself in the world.

So the cycle is phenomenal from this one seemingly simple, absurdly easy thing to do in the morning. Well, can I tell you one other thing that's happened? That's incredible because I know that so many of your listeners and you in particular, and my husband too, who just became somebody certified to teach meditation, he's been meditating every day for the last decade. Meditation, and you'll be able to say it better than I will, way more eloquently and smart. But in my mind, meditation is such an important practice because it trains you in self-awareness and it trains you in being non-reactive and in so many other things in terms of your physiology, in terms of your stress levels, you know, the benefits are very well documented.

But what it doesn't do is it doesn't add a positive new default soundtrack in your mind about how you feel about yourself. And one of the things that has happened for me is that I don't even need to high-five myself anymore. On a really low day, I do, and I will, and I still do it anyway. But what I've noticed, Jonathan, practicing this very simple habit every morning, both of asking myself, who does the woman in the mirror need me to be today? And what game are we playing together? And also then sealing it, I don't even see my face. I see a human being. I have literally deleted the soundtrack that I have lived with for 52 years, and I have reprogrammed it with all of those positive associations that a high five communicates. When I see myself in a mirror, I see a human being that I like. I see a person who's doing her best. I see a person who needs, wants, and deserves celebration, support, and love and encouragement.

And that's all that I see. And it is the most beautiful and liberating feeling in the world to have quieted that insane self-criticism. Now, are there things that happen throughout the day that make me, of course, are the things that I do, of course, but to have removed that beat down every morning, it's one of the most extraordinary experiences I've ever felt in my life. Yeah. I mean, that's powerful. Eventually through repetition, the neural grooves change. They do. It's like the old rule, what fires together, wires together. And over time, if you keep repeating this, you're getting different patterns to fire together. It's funny, reading through the book, and the book is fantastic, by the way. I love this.

It's been fun, as your friend, seeing the evolution of it and then holding it in my hand. I'm like, this is incredible. This is awesome. Everybody has to get it. It also occurred to me because you talk about, you start out with this thing, the high five habit, right? And then all of a sudden we're talking about science and then we're talking about negativity and then we're talking about guilt and then we're talking about comparison. And then we're talking and I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. We're going so much deep. And it occurs to me like halfway through, I'm like, oh, I see what Mel did here. The high five habit is like the gateway drug to a broader conversation about mental health. But it puts you, it's like, okay, so there's this cool thing. There's a tool. I can

use it. I'm going to try it. And then you get into the science. Oh, that's cool and interesting. And then it's like, oh, and here's a whole bunch of other things that are really important that accumulate in your experience of emotion and the way that you move through the day. And you start talking about each one of them and telling stories about them. And all of a sudden I'm in this deep dive deconstruction of all the different things that are spinning in my head. And I feel good about it. And I'm being invited in by your stories.

And I was like, she totally hit the broccoli. I did hit the broccoli. Because what I'm really writing about is what it means to live a high five life. And it's a life grounded in optimism and supporting yourself and knowing that, you know, my favorite philosophy, and it's something that has really helped me. And I know you believe this too, is knowing that just like you can look back and see how all the dots of your life connect to this moment, right? I mean, especially the bad stuff, how absolutely everything has been a lesson. It's given you the wisdom that you have.

It's given you the resilience, the confidence, the courage, everything that you need for this moment. And I think true power and true fulfillment comes from knowing that this moment, no matter how challenging or exhilarating it may be, is also just a dot on the map of your life. And it too is connecting you to something extraordinary that's coming. And when I kind of ground myself in this sort of faith and this optimism that it's all leading somewhere that's meant for me, that the anxiety quiets and the negativity disappears. And I'm left standing alone, staring at a woman in the mirror that I'm going to go through life with. And I feel a little bit more assured and I feel a little bit stronger. And I have a lot of faith that I'm going to be able to get through it. And that is the heart of what I'm talking about. Being able to catch yourself when life knocks you down, being able to lift yourself back up, being able to free yourself from the cage of guilt and from insecurity and people pleasing and fear and all

the stuff that you're going to feel in your life, knowing where the key is. And the key is literally inside you. It's literally being able to stare and be with yourself every single day and validate what you're feeling and have your own back and help yourself through it and lift yourself back up. That in my mind is what it means to live and experience and feel that you're having a high five life, that you're able to create something that's worth high fiving and you're able to high five yourself through it every step of the way. I love that. And it feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So hanging out in this container of the good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I think it's to surround yourself with people that you want to

high five. It's to do work or make an impact in a way that makes you want to high five what you're doing. I think it's waking up every day and being able to look the person that you see in the mirror in the eye and smile and raise your hand and celebrate, encourage, and support them. Send them into their day to play a game worth playing. I think that's what it is. It's really feeling like you are truly in control of what happens next because you are. Thank you. Thank you.

Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Brene Brown about vulnerability and bravery. You'll find a link to Brene's episode in the show notes. And even if you don't listen now, be sure to click and download so it's ready to play when you're on the go. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Spark. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about you and then show you how to tap those insights to reimagine

and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite booksellers now. Till next time, I'm Jonathan Field signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.