Good Life Project - Michelle Williams | Destiny’s Child, Darkness & Devotion

Episode Date: July 22, 2021

A member of the iconic Destiny's Child supergroup, along with Beyonce Knowles and Kelly Rowland, on the surface, Michelle Williams lived a life people dreamed of. Yet, on the inside, things were not as they seemed. Living under the weight of depression and anxiety, Michelle hid the darkness that had been with her since her teens. The blend of pressure to perform and millions of eyes on her every move only deepened the level of suffering, and the feeling that she had to keep her experience silent. When Destiny's Child came to an end, it caught her by surprise. She questioned her identity, career, and worth, and no longer had the singular focus - the group - to distract her from addressing her mental health. After years of navigating a range of professional projects, Michelle eventually found herself in the perfect storm of depression, anxiety, and anger that led her to seek help in a residential program. But that was just the first crashing wave. A tenuous relationship with her fiance crumbled under the bright lights of a reality show that, as she shares, never should have happened. She was devastated, felt abandoned, publicly judged, and inhabiting a world that felt like it no longer fit or supported her. Michelle had what she describes as a psychotic break or complete breakdown. That moment, and the suffering that led to it, opened a window of profound reckoning, self-examination, intense therapy, and a renewed sense of faith and devotion that fueled her path slowly back to wellbeing, a journey she shared in her moving memoir, Checking In (https://amzn.to/3hScMQa). And, she's the first to share, there's still a lot of work left to do, but she also very transparent about the moments along the way, with the hope that her story might help others.We talk about it all, in a wide-ranging, vulnerable and open conversation.You can find Michelle at:Website : https://www.thomasnelson.com/p/checking-in/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/michellewilliams/If you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Grammy-winning singer, Lisa Fischer, about her life in music and the effect that proximity to mega-stardom has had on her, beyond her own personal taste of fame : https://pod.link/goodlifeproject/episode/148982c8b5c85a63948f03572f29be1e-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

A member of the iconic Destiny's Child supergroup, along with Beyonce Knowles and Kelly Rowland. On the surface, Michelle Williams lived this life that people dreamed of. And yet on the inside, things were not as they seemed. Living under the weight of depression and anxiety, Michelle hid the darkness that had been with her really since her teens and the blend of pressure to perform and millions of eyes on her every move. It only deepened the level of suffering and the feeling that she kind of had to keep her experience silent. And when Destiny's Child came to an end, it caught her by surprise. She questioned her identity, her career, her worth, and no longer

had the singular focus, the group, to distract her from addressing her mental health. And after years of navigating a range of professional projects, Michelle eventually found herself in the perfect storm of depression, anxiety, and anger that led her to seek help in a residential program. But that was just the first crashing wave. A tenuous relationship with her fiance crumbled under the bright lights of a reality show that, as she shares, probably never should have happened. And she was devastated, felt abandoned, publicly judged, and inhabiting a world that really just felt like it no longer fit or supported her. Michelle had what she described as a psychotic break or a complete breakdown.

And that moment and the suffering that led to it, it opened a window of profound reckoning of self-examination, inquiry, intense therapy, and eventually a renewed sense of faith and self and devotion that fueled her path slowly back to well-being. A journey she shared in her moving memoir, Checking In. And she's the first to share. There's still a lot of work left to do, but she's also very transparent about the moments along the way with the hope that her story might help others. We talk about it all in this wide ranging, vulnerable and open conversation.

So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton.

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getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. You know, it's funny, you're recording music. I know some people prefer to be in sort of like a big city-based commercial studio and

others want to vanish away to sort of like a studio, it's in a barn in the middle of nowhere. Some of my best work was done in Nashville in a log cabin with Tommy Sims. It was- No kidding. In the upper portion of his home. That was the best. And the booth was in like a closet that was makeshift. So it was small and you felt just like safe. I like the insulated warmth of feeling like I'm in a cocoon, just no one's looking at me.

It's not all these windows in the booth. So it's just, I literally felt like I was singing in a closet. That's amazing. It's almost like you're being swaddled while you sing. That's the word I'm looking for. I could have said that five minutes ago. Swaddled is the word I was looking for. Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting also. I mean, because that kind of matches up with something that I know you've shared about yourself, which is that, and it's probably counterintuitive for people who have seen, you've lived a very public life, but you also really identify as being fairly introverted. I need to be recharged. And so I was reading up on introverts and how they have to like, get to their safe place where to me, coming home is my charging base. You know, like even during the pandemic, I loved being home, but there are people close to me. There are two people close to me in particular, my best friend, Amira and Kelly, Kelly Rowland, they thrive on connection with people and they're very high functioning, very, you know, and I'm like, lockdown, count me in, you know, but I had friends where they just thrive in the human connection and having to be around people. That's that. And so my heart went out to folks who are,

were literally trying to climb off of their patio or their terraces to, you know, get some type of connection with the outdoor world during the lockdown. Yeah. It's been so interesting to see how people have experienced it. We actually just had a conversation with a woman named Elaine Aaron, who's sort of like has been researching what she calls highly sensitive people for decades now, which is sort of like people who there's a, and there's a lot of overlap. It's, it's basically you just, you're affected by a lot of stimulation. But there's this really interesting thing that she shared with me, which was kind of There's a lot of overlap. It's basically you're affected by a lot of stimulation. Yes. But there's this really interesting thing that she shared with me, which was kind of counterintuitive, which is like you can be highly sensitive and kind of need to withdraw

and love your own quiet space. And at the same time, you can be what she described as high sensation, meaning like you also like really intense experiences at the same time, which is a little counterintuitive. It depends. I think I'm more of the first, very highly sensitive. I can pick up so many different energies in a room. And if something is draining or concerning, I feel it. And it's like, when I come home, I'm like, wow. It's not that people are bad. It's just, you don't never know what they're going through. And so, you know, they're bringing that energy to places. But as far as, I like concerts and stuff, but it just kind of depends. A lot of noise, a lot of roo-ha-ha.

I just... Not your jam. No. But is it? Because I'm getting old. No, I mean, but that's curious, right? Because you're somebody who's lived around so much of that. So is it that you're getting older and more sensitive?

Or is it just that you're sort of like, you're realizing that that sensitivity has always been there and maybe like getting more comfortable owning it? Realizing that sensitivity has almost been there, but then how much of it is rooted in anxiety? Yeah, right. When I started my therapy process, especially with my newer therapist here in Atlanta since the end of 2018, we did what, so you've heard Enneagram, right? Sure.

Well, there's a Genogram, Geniagram, where you go through your mom and dad, their siblings, if they have any, your grandparents, and you just kind of go by what their traits were, what their behaviors and responses are. And then you just to try to get to the root to my own behavior. And so I began to tell her things and she was like, no wonder. She said, you've lived in a state of anxiety for pretty much in those certain areas of childhood development. In that latter stage of childhood development, you've lived in a state of anxiety. And then your career is an anxiety-ridden career. Not that it's necessarily bad anxiety, but you're here and there. You got to get on a

plane. You got to make it on stage. You got to be on time. You got to do this. You got to do that. Hair, makeup, rehearsal. Don't say the wrong thing. Make sure you smile no matter if you're having a bad day. That's anxiety. So I've chosen an anxiety-ridden career. It's like you're just exacerbated, sort of like piles on, piles on, piles on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's so interesting, right, when you can start to track that stuff back to, you know, all the way back to when you were a kid. So I know you grew up in a household that you described as, you know, it's a household and a community really steeped in faith. Yes. But at the same time, it was a household where you didn't really talk about deeper stuff that

just wasn't part of the conversation, either outside the house or even inside the house or with parents. It wasn't. And I just learned the other day, I'm so glad we're having this conversation, Jonathan, because I was reading up on the term passive aggressive because there was some behavior that a friend of mine was exhibiting. And I was like, that's passive aggressive. So I'm looking up what passive aggressive means. And I had to slap my own self because I was reading me. And it was saying how some passive aggressiveness comes from when you weren't able to express yourself as a child, when you weren't able to

express your emotions, your feelings, or even just your side of the story. So when it's time for you to express it now, you do it in a form of pouting, sarcastic remarks, giving the silent treatment. And I was like, I'm going to tell somebody else you're exhibiting passive aggressive behavior. from a family of sweeping everything under the rug and then learning that my emotional development or being able to respond was kind of stumped in my childhood because I grew up in a household of, if you are expressive, then you're talking back. It's like, no, no. I was a very expressive child,

but it wasn't because I was being disrespectful. It's because I was naturally curious. Not that I wanted to be rebellious, or it could be something my mother had a habit of, and we crack up about it. She had a habit of like, now there's a house of, you got three kids, two adults, then my little sister came. So about six people in the house total. One hairbrush between six people. So naturally the hairbrush is going to be in all kinds of different places. And she would always blame us for the hairbrush missing. And not that I'm talking back, but I would genuinely say it in a respectful way or casually just be like, mom,

but the last time I saw someone with the brush, you had it. So you probably want to trace your, don't you talk back. So I'm shut down just by even honestly saying you had the brush last. Yeah. So, I mean, if you're shut down with that, then when you get to the stuff that is really important, it's like not even. Right. You just learn to bury it. Yeah. And so, but I imagine that that's what she grew up with.

She had eight siblings, you know. And to my understanding, they were kind of in a very strict household. My mom couldn't go to prom because you couldn't be dancing on the dance floor. My dad had to take somebody else to the prom. He couldn't take my mom to the prom. They couldn't go to the movies because it was too worldly. And she didn't go to her first movie until she was like 18, 20 years old. I think when she was married.

So imagine the strictness of her upbringing. But she loosened up on us. She said we could go to homecoming in the prom, but we couldn't be on the dance floor. And then I end up in a dance group. It's like the ultimate act of rebellion. But it's so interesting also, because the way you're describing it is sort of like, okay, so this is the way I grew up and I realized that you're still processing stuff from there. But like when you talk about your parents, you don't talk about them with a sense of like malice. It's sort of like, you know, and I'm wondering whether like when that came because my guess is as a kid, like you don't understand your parents and what shaped them and made them the way they are. But it sounds like you've really thought about, okay, so like my mom is this way, not because she's a bad person, but because she came up in a way and in a time of expectations that sort of like led her to like move into the world this way. You know, I echo the sentiments of Sean Jay-Z Carter. And he

said once, once he started going to therapy, that's when he got compassion for his parents. And that's kind of, because when you talk about your parents and their parents and their, then you're like, it wasn't their fault either, you know. But now through therapy, I have the chance for some of that dysfunctional behavior to stop with me. Just because we survive abuse, survive certain unhealthy responses doesn't make it normal. We have to call it dysfunction. But just because we survived it, we think we're okay. And it's like, no, you survived dysfunction. That's what it was.

It was dysfunction. And so, but I had to take a look and say, okay, well, my parents' parents, they just come from a generation where there wasn't a lot of affection shown. Survival was shown. We trying to keep this roof over your head clothes on your back shoes on your feet and you talking about you need a hug that literally that's how it was growing up now then in some families like say my ex-fiance's family total affectionate people even Even men hugging each other, sitting close with one another, putting their heads in each other's chest like,

man, I love you, man. I didn't see that in my household at all. Or nor did I see my aunts and uncles show affection to each other with a kiss but you know they're doing something because you got children there's evidence there's evidence that some hanky-panky is going on like i didn't i didn't see my parents show affection yeah and if that's the model of the world that you grow up in then like you said if it it's at some point, there's got to be a cost to that. And I'm not saying people have to be making out full French because I'm not saying that. But you want to know, do y'all like each other?

Yeah. And also just like an environment where you can sort of like express what's on your mind and who you are and be open. Yes, sir. I know you've talked about it, you know, like plenty and we'll talk about it more that you've already shared like anxiety was something that you were aware of pretty early and also depression, even as early as your teens. And do you feel, I know depression is a really funky thing because people are always trying to figure out why it's there and trace it back. But sometimes it's just there are a lot of things that contribute to it. I'm curious, you know, when you think back to your teens, how did these things show up in sort of like a day-to-day way?

Now, I knew something was going on in the seventh grade, but I didn't get an official diagnosis until I was in my 30s. But back in the seventh grade, I didn't have language for it. I didn't get an official diagnosis until I was in my 30s. But back in the seventh grade, I didn't have language for it. I didn't have vocabulary. I don't even know if I knew the word depression. I knew lunch money. I knew first period, second period, third period, choir rehearsal. I knew, but I didn't. I knew of pneumonia and cancer, but the word depression, I just, I don't even know if that was in my word bank in the seventh grade, but I just attribute it to, I was like, well, maybe it's hormone. I am going from girl to woman, or maybe this is just what being a teenager is

like. You're moody. You don't want to be around people. You're isolated. You're tired all the time. Just losing interest. My grades started dropping. And I was like, am I going to be one of those kids that was straight A's all the way up until seventh grade? My grades started dropping. But thank God that I had a mentor and people who saw something special in me at that time who, you know, were endeared to me and helped me through that period of time in the seventh grade. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting when we find people who kind of like are living busy lives and yet they see something in you that sometimes you don't even see in yourself or understand and just step in in a caring way without judgment. In a caring way. And one was a teacher.

Her name is Karen Portis. She ended up joining my church later on. And a man by the name of Mr. Gilbert, Skip Gilbert, I believe was his name. He was part of the company called Big Brothers Big Sisters. And I don't know if he was a full-time employee of my school or if he would just come as a representative of Big Brothers Big Sisters. And he would just sit with me from time to time. And he was just a safe place, a safe person. And I didn't have to tell him what was going on at home, just a person that I could just,

and it just boosted my morale and I survived middle school because of these two people. Yeah, I love when people like that touch down. So this kind of becomes, you survive, but at the same time, this is just like a part of your regular experience,

which persists to this day to a certain extent. You end up coming out of high school, starting in college with an interest in criminal justice. So you're like, I mean, music was always a part of your life. Singing was always a part of your life. Yeah, raising church.

Always. All of that. All of it. Right was always a part of your life. Yeah, but raising church. Always, right? All of that, all of that. Right, but something inside of you is like, okay, that's the thing I do on this side, or that's the thing I do for God, but this is not my career. Yes, exactly. And criminal justice is the thing

that seems to be your career. So you're in college, you're studying, and then a couple years in, everything changes. Everything changes. In 1999, a friend of mine calls me and says, And then a couple years in, everything changes. Everything changes in 1999. A friend of mine calls me and says, I found your number in the bottom of a moving box. I was just calling to see if you had the same number. And I was like, yeah, what's going on?

He said, yeah, I'm about to go on the road with Monica. She's opening up for the band 98 Degrees. Do you remember that band, Jonathan? I do. They were huge back then. So they were going on a tour that was sponsored by Nickelodeon. And I said, really? So I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Well, if Monica needs a background singer, tell her to call me. You know, like she knows me. And he calls me like a week or two later and says, she's having auditions tomorrow. Can you get to Atlanta? And I was like, I can't afford a next day plane ticket. He said, hold the line. He calls his cousin Gladys who worked for United Airlines. She got me a buddy pass. I get to Atlanta and I do the audition and I get that gig to sing background for Monica. And thank God it was during the summer months because the plan was, I promised my mom, the plan was to do

this tour and enroll, get your tail right back in school. That was the plan. Didn't quite stick to the plan. And then I got a phone call that Destiny's Child was interested in looking for alternate members. Natty, I wasn't even supposed to be permanent, an alternate member of the group. And life changed for me at the end of 1999 and then top of 2000. I get a phone call saying, hey, we need you to come to L.A. to film the video for Say My Name. And I was like, wait a minute. But I'm supposed to shadow the county coroner for an autopsy. I can't go film a video. So I was at a crossroads.

Do you shadow the county coroner? Because you're wanting to really go into forensic psychology. So my uncle, who is a physician, obviously knew the county coroner and hooked up a day for me to shadow her. And I had to make a choice. Autopsy or say my name video. And I chose the video. So the friend who recommended me that job for Monica, they auditioned. He tragically passed away about two months ago in a motorcycle accident. And I just thank God for him. I thank God for that phone call. You know, he was used as a vessel in my life changing.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I'm so fascinated by the concept of sliding doors. I mean, do you ever sit there and wonder like, what if he didn't find that like piece of paper or whatever it is? I know. What would my life be like today? I, I'll say this. Even though I was going through what I was, the depression in the seventh and eighth grade, I knew that I would say this. Even though I was going through what I was, the depression in the seventh and eighth grade, I knew that I would be successful. I had too many great people that I could touch.

My uncle was a doctor. One of my mentors worked for the FAA. So I knew that it was possible. So I knew that I would be successful. I didn't know to the point of like Google-able, you know? So I knew I said, well, maybe I, and so in college when I was like, you know, I want to be a forensic psychologist, I knew that I would be good or a prosecuting attorney. I knew that I would do something. I didn't have a choice really, but to pursue something great. Yeah. But to this capacity, no.

Never thought that I could impact millions of people. forensic psychologist that has to speak at like high profile cases, get deposed, you know, on a high profile case. And then I have to take the stand. And then that, that's how you know people's names. Yeah. So when you choose Destiny's Child over criminal justice. What's that conversation like with your parents? Oh, bribery. I told my mom, I said, mom, because at the time she loved the Chrysler 300M. Now it's just called the Chrysler 300. I said, mom, let me do one more background singing gig. I'm going to get you that Chrysler 300M. So she's like, all right, just one more. It was bribery. Then it turned and then not only, well, she got an escalator, kind of like escalator.

She got a house. So it was double. She got more than she could ask or think. That's too funny. I was able to do that for her. Yeah. I mean, you're also coming into Destiny's Child, right? When you come into it, it's not a new group. So this is a group that was formed. They were out there. And you're coming in at a bit of an awkward time too. Totally awkward, Jonathan. An already established group. You know, I felt like I was coming into somebody's house and a furnished house. Pictures are where they're going to be.

Carpet is where it's going to be. Don't come in changing nothing. Just come on in. That's what it was for me. But it was fun. It was fun. Yeah. And you guys, you kind of hit the ground running. I mean, the group, it feels like from the outside looking in, it gels pretty quickly. You're out there on the road doing incredible things and wild, wild successes. Your profile personally is raising dramatically. And at the same time, there's this interesting decision that you and the band kind of make together when you decide to sort of publicly become a part of the band, which is to change your name. Well, not so

much to change your name, but to drop your first name and go with your second name. Yeah, that was an interesting meeting. I was like, well, am I going to ruin my chances to be in a group because of this request? Then I thought of people, I was like, okay, well, Rosanda is Chili's real name in TLC. You know, Kelly's real name is Calendria. So I was like, okay, I guess, you know, we'll go for it. Now the reasoning stung, like, who do you think little girls would want to be most like, Tanitra or Michelle? And I've since talked to this person and they're doing well in their life and marketing and all that stuff. Because there's marketing, I get it. But I was like, when I fast forward to 2021, my mayor's name is Keisha.

Okay. You have, we have a vice president, Kamala. You know, I wonder now would that request have been made in 2021? But I get it. I get it. I get why at that time, I think it was the best way to do what we had to do to crossover from R&B to pop. And I get it. And guess what? We had a fabulous run. And my family, I felt it was cool because not that I was portraying a different person to the world, you were still getting to Nitra.

But I feel like when I would go home to family, it was soothing when they'd say T or to Nitra. It was soothing when my mom would say to Nitra Michelle. That's how she, if I was in trouble, that I'd get to Nitra Michelle. Or if she needed me to go get cornbread mix from the grocery store, T, can you go get some cornbread? Or don't forget you have to pick up your nieces from daycare today. You know, so I loved having that kind of boundary to the world and who I am to my family. Yeah. But at the same time, it also sounds like there was a certain weightiness to it. There was a certain sort of like hiding aspect that almost felt like you questioning authenticity in a weird way.

And if you have a history of depression and of stifling, you grew up in a household where sort of like things are stifled. It's sort of like it becomes this interesting, you know, kind of trigger. Absolutely. Absolutely. Once again, it was just something you sweep under the rug. I didn't question it because I said, these are professionals here. They know what's best.

So I didn't question it. I didn't say, well, why would you think people wouldn't want to be like Tanitra? I didn't. At the time I'm young, I'm by myself. You know, my mom was unhappy at first. Actually, she was hurt when I told her. She was like, I named you. And I was like, yes, ma'am, I know you did. I know Anita and Tanitra. I think the syllables, yes, there's three syllables. I think it was the epidural. Because I don't know how Anita and Tanitra, how I'm a junior somehow.

But yeah, she was hurt. But there are certain things you're like, am I going to let this be a deal breaker? No. Yeah. So you just kind of move on and you're out there as Michelle and the band is doing, the group is doing incredible things. And it's interesting, right? Because from the outside looking in, you're on top of the world. You have every reason. I think the assumption is, you know, she's doing incredible work. She's affecting the lives of millions of people, earning like a nice living. She's got millions of eyes on her. And all of that is true.

And at the same time, the depression and the anxiety, they never left you. They're just sort of like they're always there, like just underneath the surface, which in a way, I wonder if that actually made it harder for you, because if you try and share that, people, instead of saying, well, tell me about that, it becomes almost harder to understand because from the outside looking in, it seems like, well, you couldn't possibly have a reason to have these feelings. Like something can't be right there. Yeah. And it seemed like I was talking to more people who didn't understand depression. Because one of the comments, even in the first or second year while I was in Destiny's Child, I did go to somebody and say, hey, I think this is depression. And they're like, no, same thing. You guys just went out going on tour. You got Barbie dolls. No, you got so much going for you. And I've even talked to that person since then. And he said that had he known then what he knows now about depression, his response would have been totally different versus, but I get it. You're trying to make somebody feel better. You're trying to make

them see the brighter side of things. I get it. I wasn't even mad when he said it. And then I was like, you're right. Maybe I am homesick. Maybe I'm just fatigued and tired, which I was. I was. I was homesick. I loved my hometown of Rockford, Illinois. I was definitely homesick.

So once again, I just went on and just didn't have it treated until maybe 10 years later, actually. So that's a long time. That is a long time. I mean, you wrote in your recent memoir, there was this line that really stayed with me. You wrote, some days I feel like I'm feeling all the emotions God has all at once. Other days I feel like I'm just dead inside. Yeah, absolutely. has all it wants other days i feel like i'm just dead inside yeah absolutely absolutely you're feeling numb how you feeling numb if you're numb you don't feel nothing but you're numb or like

you say you're feeling overwhelmed i don't know if it was necessarily sadness versus empty, hopeless, finished, what more can I accomplish? I was watching The Weight of Gold, the documentary by Michael Phelps, and how you feel depleted and finished because you feel like the rah, rah, rah, rah, rah is what gives you validation versus we need to be seeking who we are outside of the training, outside of the Olympic winner, outside of the Grammy winner,

seeing who you are outside of that, building that person up. And then all those other things are just great additions to who you are outside of that, building that person up. And then all those other things are just great additions to who you are, but it's not the main portion of who you are. Although you train like hell to accomplish that. I mean, I get it, but I felt that way about my book. I had to check in with myself because the week, the release of my book, it was full. And you're feeling good about yourself. You're feeling like you're contributing something great to society. And then it's like, all right, what's next? And it's like, do I want to live my life? All right. Actually, I don't.

So I've learned to check in with myself and say, it's a little much better now. I love now I'm doing maybe one interview a day or two interviews a day versus that three page long itinerary of one day of press. So I love it being spaced out. So now when I check in with myself, it's a feeling of gratitude. I'm still thankful a month later to still be talking about my book. And then I instantly say, yeah, you're still doing good. You're good. It's just not as intense. Your schedule's just not intense. That doesn't mean you're a bum. Yeah, because I think sometimes when you get used to, it's almost like you habituate to a level of incredible intensity.

And there's a reason to wake up in the morning every single day. When you're in Destiny's Child and you're on tour, you are working like crazy i mean all you all had the reputation in the industry as as working harder than anyone you know and you're you're there's a like there are a thousand reasons to get up every morning and you know where you're going and it's interesting that you brought up that documentary the weight of gold because that was one of my curiosities you know when destiny's child finally sort Child finally comes to its natural end as a full-time thing, Michael Phelps, a lot of Olympians, a lot of pro athletes write about

this. It's like, okay, so you've been at the highest high. You've had this intense sense of, I know what I'm doing every day when I get up in the morning. I know what I have to do and I have a sense of purpose. I know what I'm working towards. And then for you, when that kind of goes away and it sounds like it caught you by surprise a little bit and you wake up the next morning, I know a lot of Olympians say, even when they've won the gold, they wake up the next morning and there's this really deep sense of loss and depression. And I'm wondering how, what was that season sort of like right after for you? Is it, I mean, it is a, when you're on a roller coaster and you're going up the hill and you're like, oh my gosh, it's incredible. And then you go the shoo and you're like, oh my God.

And then when you're like coming into the end of the roller coaster on that boring track and you're like, I did all that for this. Did I really risk a heart attack? Palpitations, blacking out because of a G-Force for this boring ending. And it felt like a boring ending. Like what? Did I really not shadow the county coroner for this? You know, but it, you know, I felt like we were supposed to go on forever.

You know, that's just not what it is. But I felt like we were supposed to go on forever. That's just not what it is. But I'm so glad. I just think of moments almost 15 years later, 16 years since the last official release of a Destiny's Child album that I still do what I do today. So that gets me up out of that wonder. I wonder what could have been versus what's going on now. We are all still doing our thing. And everyone's enjoying their time down and apart. Beyonce and Kelly, they have children, so they're enjoying that. And it's kind of like being able to choose when you're going to get back So they're enjoying that. And it's kind of like being able to choose when you're going to get back to that level of intensity.

And now when you kind of have the lower moments, you don't let it become a depressive moment. You let it become a moment of recharging, thinking about what to do next. You're okay, you know, being able to breathe and now pick and choose what you want to do. That's actually a great position to be in. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work

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The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary.

15, 16 years later, it feels like you're in this really good place. But during those 15 or 16 years, there's a lot of roller coasters. A lot of roller coasters, a lot of uncertainty, a lot of what am I going to do do are people going to expect me to perform at the intensity because I feel like during performances I was like oh my gosh do I have to have pyro do I have to have a wind machine do I have to have sequence and hair and makeup and what what what are people expecting and I worried about that because I didn't people feel like I fell off if I'm doing a performance now and it's to a track versus the band, versus the whole machine. You know, and it affected me for a while. Like, what am I going to do?

Because Michelle Williams' budget was different from my Destiny's Child budget. Yeah. And I ended up putting a lot of my own personal money into certain performances to have at least a band to keep up with a certain expectation. Yeah. And it's also, you know, there's gotta be this season I would imagine where you're questioning on a fundamental level, who am I?

Like if I'm not, okay, so I thought for a while I was gonna be the criminal justice person and make a big mark there. Turns out I entered the world of music and made a big mark there. But as a part of this, a big part of the identity is tied up in this group.

And then it's like when that ends, and you're still pretty young at that point, right? So I wonder if there's this moment where even beyond all this on a deeper level, you're questioning your identity. Like who am I actually without there's this moment where even beyond all this, on a deeper level, you're questioning your identity. Like, who am I actually without all of this? Without all of this. I mean, every other week I was looking at online schools.

Maybe I'm just, maybe I'm going to go back to school. Maybe I, maybe I, this is my chance. I can do both. I can do it all. You know? And it's amazing to, you know, with athletes, who are they without the football in their hand? And that's why a lot of athletes even have trouble transitioning from the NFL field, the NBA court, the baseball field without those certain things in their hand that made them these great athletes, right? And you have to know that without that,

the greatest medicine for those thoughts and wondering who you are is having people around you who love you for you, who will still pick up the phone if you don't have tickets to offer them. People who still just want to come by and visit and sit with you because they just love who you are as a person. So once you have that, then you'll know I'm a daughter, I'm a friend, I'm a sister, I'm an aunt. I'm a person that's still choosing to make impact. Now I'm just making impact in a different way. But I think what helps me is knowing that I literally have people who will come sit with me or invite me places just because they're like, I know you love pizza, girl. I'm finna go make a pizza run.

You want to come with me? Yeah. Safe people. Yeah, you got to come with me? Yeah. Safe people. Yeah. You got to have those, especially when you're going through a window like that, where you're sort of questioning everything. Absolutely. And then making sure you're also having people that are giving you time to breathe, but saying, hey, I want to coach you into your next. What are you passionate about?

Even while you were on the football field or on that stage performing, what were you passionate about then? And you can still do it. If it's going back to school, go for it. I love seeing people. I have a good friend of mine who is defensive end and defensive back, the same thing. I'm so not a football person. You're asking like one of the guys, you're like, I think so. I don't know. Maybe totally different. He played for the Chicago Bears and he was the highest paid in that position at one time.

And now for the past two years, he's been working as the head of sports and entertainment at UBS, you know, a top private wealth management entity. He's made a great transition, but was it still difficult? Yeah. But I'm loving that he's passionate. He's always been frugal. So he's always been passionate about people saving their money. And now, look, he's in a position that's helping people manage their wealth. So I look to him like it's so, so, so incredible. I watch people's transitions very, very closely, just as well as people are watching mine. Yeah, it's got to be powerful to have people like that in your life where you can kind of

look and see how they've navigated and also see that it's possible. You can take the way that you define yourself in one part of your life. And don't let people make you feel that because your name's not being called or 50,000 people aren't cheering for you at the same time, that that doesn't make you feel that you don't have value. I'm not going to let the applause of people determine what my value is in the world. Yeah. And my purpose. And that's a huge shift.

And I know at the same time through that, you know, this whole last season, you know, you've stepped onto the stage a lot more, but like in an acting and like musical context, you have, like you've stayed in the business of performing. You've done it really differently. And at the same time, that same through line, the underbelly of depression and anxiety, it never went away. In fact, during parts of it, when you're sort of like in a darker window, it got deeper and darker. And, you know, eventually leading to this moment in 2018, where it's sort of like it was the perfect storm. Yeah. It was at times beautiful. I mean, I got engaged. I'm performing at Coachella with Beyonce and Kelly. And, you know, I got a Broadway opportunity that came my way. It literally was the womp, womp, womp. That was the ending. I wasn't used to those endings, except the one when Destiny's Child ended, but it's things picked up again. But I was just like, what in the world is going on? I will never forget 2018. Well, there are certain years that people have in their lives where they're like, girl, you remember 1972? Well, I'm gonna be,

girl, do you remember 2018? I sure do. And never want to go back to it. I learned from it, but that was an interesting time, the highs and lows. And in 2018, I'll never forget. I think that depression kind of started around either the end of 2017 or January, 2018. And it wasn't until July 2018 where it was like, okay. And I kept it to myself. I didn't say anything to anybody. Because I had been talking about depression publicly since 2013. And I didn't want people to be like, oh my gosh, here we go again. So I didn't say anything until 2018 when at that point, I was forced to say something because TMZ found out. And I was like, well, I'm not going to let them do the headline. They did anyway. But I was like, let me go ahead and admit that, yes, I did check into a treatment facility.

And I'll be the guinea pig for people who, you know, are scared to get help, that need to get help. And at that point, though, I was desperate enough to where I didn't care who knew that I was there, but I still thought, to this day, I don't know who told it. I wonder, you think they'll tell me? You think TMZ will tell me if I ask? Like, I won't say anything. Who told, who, who, who told you? I'm guessing pretty slim chance there, but I mean, so, so you, you end up in a residential program where you're like, okay, so I'm kind of at rock bottom emotionally at least. And it's time to, to do something. I know you described that as sort of like almost this otherworldly moment where you don't pack anything. You don't, you literally just get in your car and show up at this place. I got in my car and showed up.

Right. And when you emerge from that, you know, you emerge back into a really weird circumstance also because you've got a person who's in your life now. You've signed a deal to do a reality show about a relationship. And at that moment in time, it's sort of like the inner voice is saying, the last thing that I need on the planet right now is to have a camera crew trailing us around 24-7. I just need to be private and heal. And yet there are all these expectations coming at you from the outside. Expectation. Yeah. It was expectations lies greed probably to even exploit the moment and I learned I learned oh I learned my lesson to not ever go against what my gut said, do not do it. My gut said, don't do it. And then my fiance was told that we would be in breach of contract if we don't do it. And I didn't seek to hit my attorney about it because it sounded legit. Like, well, we did sign up to do it.

And then there was the, Michelle, you could really make a difference in people's lives by talking about the depression. And so I was like, is that something I'm willing to do? I am transparent. I'm an open person. So I guess it would be cool to let people see the journey because I plan on coming out triumphant. That did not happen. So I would say to anybody, trust that gut feeling, the Holy Spirit, whatever you want to call it, trust it because it would have saved a lot. It would have saved a lot of heartache and then further embarrassment and humiliation. Like, when is she going to learn?

You know, the Oprah Winfrey Network was very supportive and really wanted me to not work at all. But I got contrary information. So I shot the show and I'm not blaming the show but it was to me the worst decision that I've made in my career ever I'm gonna stick by that statement yeah I mean that that lands you in a really short time back in an even darker place which you which you've as, I don't know whether you remember whether you used the phrase nervous breakdown or psychotic break, but basically you reached a state where- In 2018, December of 2018, because I go July when I got out of the hospital, which I was able to get checked out earlier from the hospital because I was so scared that I wouldn't

be able to have a peaceful time there. I would have stayed longer. Our camera's gonna, if people, the nurse came in and told me to close my curtains because she was afraid of long lens camera people, photographers, finding me. So I was like, you know, I got to get out of here. So I'll just do my care outpatient. I'll just finish it, the rest of my care. But I didn't, I should have taken time to heal from at least July to, I think November, I could have had some good time because November is December is when I was supposed to star in a Broadway show. So I think that would have been enough time to heal from that hospitalization. But I go from hospitalization to a camera in my face, to my relationship being

rocky, stressed. We didn't stand a chance. We didn't give ourselves a chance. So even if there's somebody out there now, you're in a broken situation. Don't talk to a lot of people about it. Just you and that person figure it out. Even if you decide you don't want to go further, whether it's through that job or that relationship, just you guys process it out with trusted care, trusted therapist, trusted counselor and figure it out. If it don't work out, at least just the two of y'all could make that decision without the whole world being abreast of what was going on. Yeah. I know it's really interesting following along with the way you describe it and the way you write about it. One of the things that really stood out was you have two go-tos. When you know you're in a dark place, when you just need to process things,

therapy and faith. And it's interesting to me because oftentimes those two things don't play well together. I had conversation with so many folks who were raised in a devout faith community and across almost literally every spiritual tradition. And there's sometimes this sort of like raised eyebrow that if you can't find your answers here, if you need to actually go to therapy or take meds, that it is a spiritual failure and a human failure and that that's not okay. And there's a certain amount of shame that keeps you from that. So it's really interesting to me to see that you were like, no, this is a yes and thing. Yes, I'm deeply devout. You're like, yes, God means a lot to me. Yes, I'm checking in with God, but I'm also checking in with therapy and other processes. And if I need medication, I need medication. And this is the type of thing where,

so I'm really, I'm interested in the idea of you being open to everything. Yeah, because the majority of people are yes and OBGYN, yes and family practice physician, yes and an oncologist. My thing is yes and a therapist. Yes and a psychiatrist. Yes and that and prayer. All of that. Yes and. So I don't judge anybody for saying, you know, yes and high blood pressure medication yes and an antidepressant yes and anti-anxiety until you can hopefully hopefully certain things don't even have to be lifelong i don't know but until a person is stable until maybe things can be regulated by diet and exercise, it's going to be yes and.

Yeah. No, I thought it was really interesting to sort of like see your openness to saying, okay, basically whatever's going to help me right now, I'm all in. Yeah. Dr. Anita Phillips, who is an amazing therapist and a profound minister. Bishop T.D. Jakes really touts her and has her on his platform a lot. She's also on his daughter's podcast network. And she's a therapist. And she has a slogan that says, prayer is a weapon. Therapy is a strategy. She has it on a t-shirt. I've been there, done that, and I literally bought the t-shirt from her. You got to support in every way, right? Yes, yes, yes. Been there, done that, got a t-shirt. Yeah. And I mean, you're starting to come full circle in our

conversation. It sounds like a big part of your recent coming full circle in just your understanding of yourself, your life, and like, how do you move forward in a place of greater ease? That forgiveness has been a really big part of your journey as well. And not just others, but also like self-forgiveness. And it's something that you write about and you speak about in a really powerful way. You know what? It has just been a phenomenal, interesting journey. That's for sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So it feels like a good place for us to bring this home. So hanging out here in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life. Authenticity, kindness. You can have a good life. Authenticity because the people who are to be your tribe will be attracted to your authenticity. And kindness goes a long way. People will give to you and your projects because of just, you know what? He's so kind. Jonathan, I'll come on your podcast all the time

just because of your kindness and the handling of this interview. I can tell he's a kind person. Good life project. Good life project also means, but they say, don't cheat yourself, treat yourself. Like I used to, I used to not do things like go on a vacation. Cause I felt like I hadn't accomplished what I needed to accomplish. I didn't reach a goal. But a good life is not breaking the bank, but just making sure that, hey, yes, you've been saving up all month.

Go grab a coffee, an ice cream sandwich. Enjoy life. You have one life. I read something the other day that helped me because people feel self-care is selfish. No, it is not selfish. A good life is also taking care of the one life you have, you know, because you're not going to have another one. Yeah, I hear that. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this conversation, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Grammy-winning singer Lisa Fisher about her life in music and the effect that proximity to megastardom

has had on her beyond her own personal taste of fame. You'll find a link to Lisa's episode in the show notes. Even if you don't listen now, be sure to click and download it so it's ready to play when you're on the go. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app so you'll never miss an episode and then share the Good Life Project love with friends. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes

hold. See you next time. mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. charge time and actual results will vary.