Good Life Project - Mind and Matter | John Urschel

Episode Date: July 30, 2019

Former Baltimore Ravens linebacker, John Urschel, lived a double-life. On the field, he was a celebrated football player, starting out at Penn State before turning pro and playing in the NFL. But, off the field, a profoundly different, yet equally powerful passion and lifelong fascination consumed human--mathematics. Now, a Ph.D. candidate in mathematics at MIT, he's building a life and living around this pursuit, with a vision to teach. He shares insights about this journey in his book, Mind and Matter (https://amzn.to/2JYDtlh). In today's conversation, explore how these dual passions found a place in his life and were nurtured and pursued. We also talk about his time at Penn State, during what was a very dark period, how he personally experienced it and the choices he made along the way.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So my guest today, John Urschel, played in the NFL, played professional football for the Baltimore Ravens, played as a linebacker. What it takes to succeed to the work ethic, the talent, the extraordinary grit to get to the level where you're actually chosen and you're playing in the NFL is an astonishing story on its own. But that is not the entirety of John's story. In fact, from the youngest of times, John developed kind of a passion slash obsession slash love for math, for complex problem solving, and found himself actually immersed in the world of math and mathematics from the time he was a little kid, teaching himself all sorts of things just for the fun of it. That ended up eventually

lending him degrees in mathematics while simultaneously playing at Penn State for one of the biggest teams in the world in college. And then as he's wrapping up his pro career, making a decision to go back and pursue his PhD in math at MIT, which is actually where he was when I sat down with him to record this conversation. I love the way that he weaves together this deep passion and love for two worlds, for football and for math and complex problem solvings.

It's really compelling. It's all laid out in a new book called Mind and Matter, A Life in Math and Football, which also has a pretty cool structure. He literally alternates chapters between math and football, which I thought was a fascinating way to travel the journey with him. And we travel that sort of parallel journey

in this conversation. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. You've got this lifelong love affair with sort of like movement with football and with mathematics and it feels like underneath that is just a profound interest in solving complex problems and it sounds like a lot of that came from your mom and she was probably pretty similarly wired to you yeah she was she uh she loved mathematics when she was younger, loved sort of quantitative things. And, you know, she ended up becoming a nurse, but this was largely due to, you know, her feeling like, one, sort of a little self-conscious about her math abilities or her perceived lack thereof. And two, not really knowing what you could do with math and physics.

You mean like an apply in the real world? Yeah, in the real world in the sense that, okay, I'll tell you a little bit about my mother. So she grew up in inner city Cincinnati in quite a rough area. Her father never graduated high school. He later got his GED. He worked at GM. Her mother stopped school after middle school because she was in the segregated South. And so there were schooling stopped after middle school and she became a seamstress. And so my mother, you know, she was, she graduated from high school and she was the strongest student in her school. And despite that, her guidance counselor actually recommended to her that rather than applying to university and going to college, that she should try to be a secretary. Not that there's anything wrong with being a secretary, but when you have someone who's really interested in to sort of push them away from college is a crazy thing to me.

But thankfully, my mom didn't listen to her high school guidance counselor. She went to the local University of Cincinnati, and she really just, she wasn't really introduced to fields in STEM. And it's because of this that she, you know, eventually became a nurse. But I have to say that in general, it's tough to, it's tough to say you want to grow up and be something if you don't even know what that something is, or if you don't even know a single person who does that thing. And so that was one of the biggest things that sort of limited her. And that, I think, is one of the main reasons why she was so determined with me. Not determined to make me good at math, because she was good at math, but she wanted to make sure that no matter what I was interested in, no matter what I wanted to be, that the only thing that would limit me would be either a lack of interest, a lack of talent, a lack of hard work, or perhaps just plain old bad luck. But she wanted to make sure that it would never have a single thing to do with a lack of resources, the household I was born into, or the color of my skin. And this is something that she truly believed in, especially

based off her experiences. And so this is what she made sure of. And she saw that I was also quite good at quantitative things. And so she jumped on it, although she never pushed me. She just wanted to make sure I always had the resources. Yeah. How did that start to show up? Because it seems like it showed up really early in your life. Yeah. You mean, how did my... In your sort of quantitative skills. Yeah. How did she recognize this? Yeah.

So this is when I'm like really little. I can't even like say full sentences. But what I do know is I know all the shapes. And I love the shapes to the point where I see the shapes. And one of my favorite games I'm told I mean who remembers what they were doing like before they were two but I'm told that one of my favorite things to do when we like go outside would be to point and recognize the shapes that I see at home out in the world like recognize a square. Recognize a rectangle. Recognize what the stop sign is.

Things like this. Recognize a circle. So she saw that and really started to nurture that. I mean, at the same time also, you're a mom. You're born actually in Canada, right? Yeah, I was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba. But then soon after moved to Buffalo. Yes. After a few years, we ended up in Buffalo.

Right. And then your mom, in this mix, because she went back to school also to be a lawyer. Yes. Well, I mean, being a nurse was, first of all, sort of her schedule was quite tough. And she also wanted to try to sort of, you know, have a higher income and also have a job that might've be a little more conducive to being able to raise me and give me the things that, you know, she thought I needed and deserved. So, you know, it's not easy to do sort of in the middle of your life, in the middle of your career to sort of go back to school at night and, you know, try to become something else, but she did it. Yeah. I mean, especially cause you know, she got a kid, um, in the middle of

this also your, your parents ended up going their separate ways. Yes. Yes. So she ends up being effectively a single mom in Buffalo with a kid in a career like nursing, which not a lot of people leave. I mean, it's sort of like the medical professions. It's like, okay, so once you start in there, as much as there are a lot of great things and also a lot of real struggles that people talk about in those professions, it seems like it's the type of path where people kind of like, once you're in, you're in,

and you kind of just ride it out. So to be a single mom in Buffalo, raising a kid, a woman of color, and then say, I'm gonna go back to school and completely change direction in careers. I mean, powerful, disruptive. It's pretty incredible. Yeah. No, my mother is a strong woman.

She is a strong, strong woman and does not surprise me one bit. Like knowing her, this does not surprise me one bit. Like, knowing her, this does not surprise me. If you told me this story abstractly, of course this is unusual, but knowing my mother, she... Just like, of course. Of course. Yeah. Your dad at the same time was a surgeon at the time.

Yes. Talk to me a bit about sort of like you and him and that relationship. Yeah, we had such an interesting relationship when I was younger, I have to admit. I don't talk about it much. I simultaneously didn't feel that connected to my father. I wasn't that connected to my father. I wasn't that connected to my father for when I was young. But at the same time, I so desperately, desperately wanted to be just like him. To the point where, like, I would hang on his every word.

It was like, his word was like, you know, it was like, you know, it was like law to me. And, uh, I, uh, the reason I became a football player, the reason I played football, even in the first place, or even wanted to play football when I was younger, it's because my father played college football. This was the single reason why I wanted to play football. And, uh, as I got older, I mean, in my, uh, sort of middle sort of teen years, my father, he lived in Boston at the time. He was the chief of surgery at Beth Israel Deaconess, I believe, Harvard's hospital in Boston. Legendary hospital. Yeah.

So, you know, he was really an extremely successful thoracic surgeon. And I also wanted to be just like him in the sense that I wanted to be really, really good at something. And eventually he, you know, he got a little burned out and he decided it's time to retire. He moved back to Buffalo right around, or he moved back to Canada, I should say, but not too far from me Buffalo right around or he moved back to Canada I should say but not too far from me and right around sort of I believe like seventh eighth grade for me and he came back and he decided that he decided I was out of shape decided that was a little on the heavy side and that he was gonna work with me I was gonna get in shape and also he was gonna help me with sort of my studies.

And so he would pick me up after school every day. And the first thing we would do is we would go to the gym. He would like work me like a dog, like we're lifting weights. I'm running up and down stairs. And then we would go to the library and we would study. And this was like, this was such a sort of interesting time of my life and an experience that I really enjoyed. I got into very good shape, and this was a time where I really got introduced to a lot of areas of mathematics and physics that I wouldn't have been introduced to if it was just me and my mother. Because my mother just, she just didn't know about certain things. Yeah, and it's interesting also,

just to me, the psychology of your dad sort of like coming back, closer to where you live now, so you can be much more regular presence, but also showing up and saying like, "'Hey, you're out of shape. "'We're gonna do something about this.'" Did that land well with you? Did you reject that? Or were you just like, okay, you're out of shape. We're going to do something about this. Did that land well with you? Did you reject that?

Or were you just like, okay, let's do this? Because it can be a lot of judgment that gets received by a lot of kids, depending on how it's offered. Yeah, no, it's true. And my father, he's a very, well, especially back then, he was a very direct person. And he's always was a very direct person. And he's always been a very direct person. But I took it in the best way possible.

I said, okay, we're going to do this. And I am going to lose weight. I am not going to be a fat kid. And I'm going to do this. And I'm going to enjoy it. And I'm going to do this with my father. Yeah. And this is going to be a great thing because I have to admit, I was sort of, uh, I was quite an overweight child sort of, uh, for a large number of years. I mean, I was, uh, I'll admit I was like, uh, I was bullied when I was sort of in elementary school. And yeah, my weight was sort of an issue.

And my father just said, you know what? We're fixing this now. And this is not going to be an issue for the rest of your life. Yeah. And it kind of sounds like he said, we're doing this together, right? You have to go do this. Yeah. Which makes all the difference in the world.

Absolutely. It's not like he's saying, okay, it's not like he's just sitting somewhere and saying, oh, go run these stairs, go run these laps. We're doing them together. And that was something really enjoyable. And I would see how much better my dad was at things than I was. And it made me just really, really want to improve.

Yeah. And I did, to the point where now I'm constantly like beating him in races, I'm constantly outlifting him. Like, how's that for him right now? Yeah. And he, he predicted that's the way it was going to be. And, uh, yeah, so I have to say, I, uh, I have to really credit my father for a lot of things that being like a really important time in my life and also for him taking care of my uh like my higher mathematics education whereas my mother is sort of responsible for all the things that occurred when i was little just her knowledge of mathematics her knowledge of sciences you know it was limited and so she can only do so much. And this is where my father really, really came in.

Yeah. It sounds like both of them also brought to you this ethos of you can do tough things. And it's not just you can do tough things, but there's a certain joy to embracing them and working to be extraordinary, to be exceptional at almost anything. And there's nothing that if you set your mind to it, you know, you can't rise up and be, you know, among the best or accomplishing incredible things at from both of them, because they both did it in their own domains and unique ways. Absolutely. And they, they sort of taught me this in very different ways. Like my mother,

this always came from a very sort of like loving, like enjoyment point of view. And my father really came at it from a much more sort of intense, hard work, sort of like sweat, tears sort of point of view. And I really needed both sides of that. Yeah. Because, I mean, along the way, if you want to become extraordinary or anything, you're going to have both experiences. Yes.

No matter how much love for the game or the pursuit it is, there's going to come a time where you're like, this is just brutal. Yeah, exactly. And you got to push through. It's like heads down, push through. Yeah. My mother always had sort of, you know,

a lot of optimism where my father is the push through. Yeah. My mother always had sort of, you know, a lot of optimism where my, my father is the, is the realist. Yeah. You mentioned also that at that time with your dad exposed you to the academic world in a different way. I know you tell a story about how you ended up, were you 13 years old or something like that in a, in a college class? Yeah, 13. And this was completely, so here's just an example of sort of my mother versus my father. My mother has decided that she, because, so first of all, my mother decided that I should be an aerospace engineer. Why? Because space was the most sort of amazing thing that she like could imagine. And she thought, well, the most brilliant quantitative minds in the world,

they're all working on outer space. And so I need to be a rocket scientist and, you know, or aerospace engineer as they're called. So my mother, like she enrolls me in this summer camp for engineers, not just engineers, but African-American engineers. And I'm sure that this camp is fantastic for certain types of people. Perhaps it's fantastic for people who actually want to be engineers, but for me it was quite dreadful. I found us sort of doing very uh very hokey things doing very sort of uh you know like making a little like bottle rocket with you know like baking soda or whatever or you know using popsicle

sticks to build bridges things like this which you know some people i'm sure some people really enjoy but for me it just didn't i didn really, I didn't get enjoyment out of this. I didn't see this as sort of a great use of sort of all the math and physics and all of the sort of complexity and sort of challenges that I'm used to doing. I just didn't really see it. And I didn't enjoy it. And my father said, you know what, let's just forget this, you know, forget this camp and let's just get you some real math. He said, he said the stuff with like popsicle sticks and all of this other, this is nonsense. Let's show you what math really is. And so he

said, and at the time he was going back to school, getting his master's in economics. And so he says, you know what, I'm going to sign you up to audit this calculus course. And he gave me, he bought me a calculus book. And first of all, I should say, it was the easiest calculus course we could find. It was calculus for business majors. It wasn't like your typical calculus course, but, uh, I, I really took to it. I really enjoyed it. And, uh, it was an amazing experience for me, I must say, because I was doing well, like I did well. I, uh, yeah, it was at that point that I sort of, I knew that, uh, I knew that, okay, you know what, I'm not bad at math and this is something I enjoy.

And I also experienced that through some of my father's courses he took because, okay, a lot of people might not know, but once you sort of get past the undergrad level of economics, it's very mathematics based. For instance, in a PhD in economics, one of the first courses you take for microeconomics is something called measure theory, which is truly just mathematics. And so I would learn a lot from him for the courses he was taking and the things he was doing. I mean, he's the one who taught me what a matrix is and, what a determinant is and things like this. So. Yeah. It's, it's amazing also because, you know, when you talk about math or for our

international listeners, maths. Maths, yes, yes, of course. Generally, especially, you know, like in the early years, the emotion that gets tied to it in an academic setting is not love, it's fear. And it's frustration and it's futility. And it's often, so many people talk about being scarred by their exposure to math at a really young age where like, and the goal becomes heads down, survive it and get to a place where you don't ever have to interact with it as soon as humanly possible.

Something in your brain was wired. I mean, here's my curiosity, actually. It sounds like there were two things at play, and I'm curious how you experienced this. On the one side, it sounds like there's just something organic about you that is wired from the earliest age to somehow yearn for and interact with the experience of math and complex problem solving in a way that's unique to you.

And at the same time, I also wonder whether part of your love and embrace of it had to do with the way it was offered to you. And at the same time, I also wonder, you know, whether part of your love and embrace of it had to do with the way it was offered to you, or do you have a sense for what that blend might be? Yeah, I do. First of all, I have to say that I was never, this is going to sound so strange, from the time I was born until like, really until I got to college there was not a single subject in mathematics like in school that I was ever truly taught in the sense of I would pretty much get to just about every math class more or less knowing the outline of everything and maybe just needing to be refreshed on some details because i learned these things like you know years before from workbooks

at home or workbooks that i would convince my parents to buy me from the bookstore things like this and so my learning experience in mathematics was very different than everyone else's. Everyone else is used to learning in a classroom teacher. You know, they introduce you to some formula. They show you a few examples on the homework. You just repeat it 20 times. You remember it, you know, whatever the formula or the sort of like quote unquote algorithm is to like factor or whatever it may be, you do it on the exam and then you forget about it. And my learning experience would be, I would have some book on some subject and rather than actually read the like section about like, you know, learning how to do certain things, I would just jump to the problems. I would just try to solve them without knowing how I'm supposed to solve them.

And that became a really interesting experience, trying to solve a math problem without someone telling you the standard technique to solve it. And so you sort of feel like a explorer. You feel like a discoverer in some way. And so I would try these things and I would come up with my own ideas and my own techniques. And sometimes it will work. Sometimes it wouldn't. When it wouldn't, I would go back to the chapter and learn, like, how do you do this?

Why didn't I think of this idea? And if it did work, well, then I just didn't even go back to, like, how other people did it. I know how I do it. And this sort of learning experience and this sort of puzzle experience and the sense of discovery, this made my learning mathematics at home, just an amazing, amazing endeavor. And okay, perhaps, you know, I have some proclivity to sort of puzzles and problem solving, but I don't think this is that unusual. I mean, I understand there's so many people who hate mathematics based off their experiences in schools, but how many people love puzzles? Like, how many people do Sudoku puzzles on the train?

How many people love doing crossword puzzles? How many people sort of do you see any time they're sort of idly having to get from one place to another or have some break playing some puzzle game on their phone? I think people do love puzzles. People do love that challenge in some ways. But I think often they don't see a connection between that and mathematics. Whereas when I learned mathematics, these two things were one in the same. Yeah. And it also says something about you

that you wanted to figure out not just the answer, but the way to the answer on your own. That's unusual. Yeah. Because most people will be like, show me the shortest way to get to this sign thing. And then I'll bang it out. Like I'll repeat it over and over.

And you're like, no, no, no. Like I have the shortest way sitting in front of me in the chapter. I don't want it. Like I want, I want, like, I want, like, I mean, it was like Richard Feynman's classic line when he won like, you know, the Nobel prize. He's like, you know, like, I don't care about the prize.

Like it was the kick of figuring the thing out. Like that was what lit him up. And his domain was physics. Your domain was this broad category of this thing called math. And I do agree. I think we all have that in some particular area or domain or topic. And I wonder often if it's just the way that we're often offered, like the pursuit of math,

closes maybe so many people who would be open to that off just because it's sort of like not offered in the way that maybe would really light that fire. I ended up my freshman year of college, one of my good friends and suite mates actually got there. He was like the classic, you know, perfect score on the SAT guy. And he was in math.

He showed up in his freshman year. He was TAing graduate level math courses because there was something about him, you know? And I remember walking into his room one night and he's sitting there. It was like a Friday night, right? Everyone's getting ready to go out. He's sitting there with this advanced math textbook.

And I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm doing my problem sets. I'm like, I thought you finished those. He's like, no, I did all the assigned ones. He's like, I want to do all the rest of them in the book. Just because this was like, there was no more fun thing that you can think of doing. I'm like, wow, there are people like this. Yeah. It's just what you enjoy if you've been introduced to it in the right way. I mean, I know, I mean, I just, I would compare this idea of, you know, sort of looking for the quickest way to do something and then just, you know, doing it and getting to the answer, you know. I equate it

to, you know, if someone like, you know, if you're trying to solve some like Sudoku puzzle, why in God's name would you just find the answer and then just fill in the numbers? Solving, having the completed puzzle isn't the point. That's not the enjoyment. The enjoyment is getting from this blank piece of paper, this blank nine by nine grid to the answer. Yeah. Well, I think so much of it has to come with understanding what needs to happen in your brain to make the leap from this being my job to this being the game. Yeah. You know, when it becomes play and all of a sudden everything changes and you aren't doing more of it. Yeah. I mean, this is something that, you know, when I mentor young sort of would-be mathematicians, or even when I was mentored, when I was an undergraduate, the process is crucial.

It's not about the results. It's about the process. My first research project with a brilliant professor, he did his undergrad and master's at Moscow State, PhD at Princeton, was a professor at Caltech, and was at Penn State for a time until Maryland bought him back from Penn State. But he would always tell me that, you know, okay, we were doing research in mathematical physics, celestial mechanics to be specific, but he would always tell me the right sort of ratio was about 80% learning and 20% research. And the point was, the research we're doing is useless if I'm not learning. For us, you know, as a pair, it was not about me just proving this thing. It's not about the result. It's about my journey through

proving this thing. It's my journey of learning and exploring and discovering and failing and failing and failing and failing and failing. And then, you know, finally breaking through that this was sort of the crucial part of our mathematical research, not the result, but sort of the process and the things I gained from it. I mean, what a powerful lesson when you zoom the lens out to the broader concept of just life, you know, if you can bring that frame to everything. And it also, it's sort of like, it helps you stand in this place of a growth versus a fixed mindset, you know, because it's like, no, you're going to hit a lot of walls. And that's okay.

You know, as long as you're sort of like understanding that in the context and figuring out, okay, so what's my next move? The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So simultaneously, as you're developing this love, this mad passion, you also get exposed to the world of football. You end up in a private high school in Buffalo. And it seems like this is really the first time that football enters your life in a much... I mean, you knew that your dad had played in college, and that was kind of like a cool thing for you. Yeah. But it really enters your life when you step into high school.

Yeah. No, it does. And I wanted to play because of my father. And the first time I started playing, I have to say, I really took to it. My technique was awful. I barely knew how to put the pads on. But it turns out I was quite good at hitting people. And coaches caught on to this.

So, yeah. So it all went from there. So you start playing. And so you're simultaneously in high school. You're a great student. You're going deeper and deeper into math. And you're also really excelling as a football player. Yes.

Comes time where you hit the end of high school. And you've got some decisions to make. Yeah. But okay. In my mind, there weren't really, you know, there wasn't really much in the way of decisions in that I was very interested in football. And I have to say, I wasn't nearly as interested in math as an academic pursuit in the sense of, okay, I knew a lot of math. I was very, very good at math. Everyone knew this.

But my experiences with math didn't feel extremely academic. So why would I be at all interested in, or at all excited about sort of more of the same in college? You know what I mean? I'll take my math classes. I'll just do my stuff. People will leave me be. And yeah, so I wasn't like sort of excited for college

in terms of academics, but I was very excited about the prospect of playing college football. Yeah, and so coming out of high school, I mean, you start to have interesting opportunities, you know, and it seems like there's also this interesting tension that starts to arise between you and your mom about sort of like, what's the right choice here? Me and my mom, and also my father and my mom. So my father had strong opinions. My mother had strong opinions

and I was sort of somewhere in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. Like for instance, my mother, first of all, she didn't even want me to play football. She, uh, you know, she wanted me to, you know, just do my undergrad, you know, like a Princeton or an MIT or Stanford. And, uh, my father, he was very big on the football and, uh, to start, it seemed like I was going to play football at Princeton, which felt like a very sort of good agreement between the three of us. But, uh, but then my senior year, I started getting interest from, you know, slightly bigger programs. And so the university of Buffalo offers me a scholarship. And at this

point I really have no other offers. And my mother says, absolutely not. He's going to Princeton. I mean, it's Princeton versus the University of Buffalo. And my father says, no, no, no, no, no. He needs to play football at the University of Buffalo because the quality of football is sort of much, much better. And like football at Princeton is going to be dreadful. And he can get a good education there and he can do his, you know, his master's or his PhD at a different program. And so I was very uncertain what I was going to do. My father and mother sort of, you know, opposed in terms of what, what is the right call. And then I, and then I got interest from the likes of Penn State,

Boston College and Stanford and sort of with Penn State, we all came to a good middle ground. My mother needed the most convincing. I mean, my father, of course, at Penn State, we all came to a good middle ground. My mother needed the most convincing. I mean, my father, of course, at Penn State, yes, you need to go there. Yeah, Penn State's like classic at that point, classic D1 football. Yes, high level. This is like a dynasty. Yeah. Lots of tradition.

It sounds like you went there, you verbally committed. Yeah. And then like at the last minute, there was like a tiny glitch with a call from Stanford. Yeah, yeah. As soon as the weekend was over, the next Monday, Harbaugh, the coach of Stanford at the time, gives me a phone call. And there was an issue in that the person who was recruiting me, the offensive line coach at Stanford, resigned. And so they were scrambling to find out who he was recruiting and get things on track.

And when he sort of called me, I had already committed to Penn State. And although Stanford was actually like my dream school, I told him no because I felt like I committed to Penn State. I had given them my word. And I felt like it was very important to me that I stand by my word. That must have been a hard moment, especially at that age. Because I mean, we're talking about like an 18 year old kid who's making a decision to choose Penn State over Stanford because at that age, your word matters that much to you. That's unusual.

No, it wasn't actually, it wasn't that hard of a decision at all. Yeah, I mean, he calls me, this is going to sound great, I didn't even really think about it. It wasn't like I had some big internal struggle. I said, no, no, no, I gave them my word. I have to stick by this. So you end up in Penn State. I end up in Penn State.

And the first year redshirted, which is, explain what that actually means. Yes, for our non-American football, for people who aren't familiar with American football or who might be international, the idea is that you're at university, you're part of the team, but you don't play in any of the games. And the point of this is that that year does not count towards your four years of eligibility, like four years of which you're eligible to play for your team. So this is common, not just in football, but in other sports. In football, it's most common for offensive linemen to sort of be so-called redshirted, which was my position because you have to be very big, you have to be very strong. And so an extra year to allow, you know, a young 17-year-old boy to develop, this is almost a no-brainer.

It's also common, just as a side note, in some other sports like, it's decently common in track and field. I didn't realize that. And it comes, it's interesting because, you know, I had some friends who did track. It comes at surprising times. Like oftentimes people will take a random red shirt their junior year or some such thing. That's so interesting.

I always thought it was freshman year. Yeah, yeah. I always thought it was freshman year too until I sort of saw this phenomenon where you'll have like runners taking red shirts in like sophomore year or junior year in some random year. So interesting. Yeah. So you're, so you're registered first year.

Yes. You're, you start to play after that. Pretty quickly you're starting. Yeah. And you become like a well-known established player on the team. Yeah. Simultaneously with this, you're also academically, were you right in math from the beginning there?

No, so I started out in aerospace engineering because my mom told me I was going to be an aerospace engineer. But I didn't enjoy my engineering classes that much. And I found that my college math courses were my favorite. I was like enjoying my math courses a lot more because they felt a lot closer to the way that I learned math when I was younger. Like we're getting closer to sort of learning math

from a rigorous point of view and also not being so focused on the result of the process. Like now that we're in college and sort of I'm taking higher level math classes, no one is just showing you a formula. No one is just sort of hand waving and say, okay, now we use this and we do it 10 times. They are justifying every single thing that they do. And they're so focused on the process. And they're not so focused about the result, but the question of why. Why is this true? Why can we use this? Whereas my engineering courses, which, okay, first of all, tons of people become engineers. It's a great profession, but they were extremely focused on how. And sort of growing up, I was always a why person much more than a how person.

And so my math courses really sort of spoke to me, and I switched majors, and I didn't even tell my mother. So you're, I mean, it's interesting too, right? So you're kind of continuing to live this dual life at the same time. You know, like very public, very forward facing on the football field and on TV, performing at the highest level as an athlete, and then pursuing and performing at the highest level as an academic in the field of math. living this life. Did you feel like you were living two separate lives? Were they just a seamless integration? Did one inform the other or did you even examine that at the time? I didn't even examine it. And I can say they fit together seamlessly, not because they needed to have something particular in common, but that they had, you know, something very simple in common, that I truly loved both. And to be great at either of them, it took talent, but it took a lot of hard work. It took a lot of

dedication. It took a lot of love because it's not always easy. And I mean, these are the characteristics that allowed me to be great at both of these things. Yeah, because it really seems, I mean, if you talk about pursuing athletic performance in Division I school at the highest level, most people will tell you that takes 110% of your effort. And then to be at the top of your class academically, that takes 110% of your effort. And somehow... Yeah, 220% is higher than 100. How does this work? But you're just like heads down.

It sounds like so much of it came from that mindset that was instilled from your folks in the earliest days. It's like, you can do hard things. You put your head down and you just work to make it happen. And it shall be. Yes, yes. In the middle of your time in Penn State, this was also a really interesting and hard time to be at Penn State because of what happened. Yeah. I mean, in my opinion, it was the perfect time for me to be at Penn State,

actually. So yeah, I'll talk about this a little bit so at penn state there was this football coach a guy by the name of jerry sandusky who uh was sort of a uh an extremely sort of uh praised football coach he you know he was a linebacker's coach penn state is often called linebacker u i don't i can't tell you the exact years he coached but i know he retired right around 2001 i believe and so in 2011 or 2012 allegations came out about this retired coach jerry sandusky regarding child abuse and in particular raping young boys and when this came out i recall like i recall what i was doing i was uh we were on a bi-week which means we didn't have a game and it was the weekend and i was doing math and hanging out and i saw

this news sort of about you know know, like former Penn State football coach is charged with, you know, I don't even know what the legal term for it is, but, uh, I saw this and the first thing I thought is who's Jerry Sandusky? Cause I have no clue who this person is. And I didn't really think anything of it until, uh, until like a day or two later on monday when you know i show up to the building and there's there's cameras everywhere there's reporters everywhere and it's this huge circus and why is it a circus well first of all this is just an awful thing you know this you know this man's former penn football coach, raping young boys. But even more so was the fact that

sort of he was really doing so sort of with a whole community sort of fooled and ignorant and unaware. And it was just, uh, first of all, it was just unfathomable. And okay. I mean, this has been sort of a really enjoy enjoyable podcast on sort of a high note, but you know, to talk about this, it's, uh, it was really a, it was a time in my life that really changed my perspective of the world and changed my perspective of people in the following way. So there was, you know, there was a lot of scandal going on and lots of things, but one of the things that I think is interesting is this man managed to convince an entire university,

an entire town, an entire community that he was a good person. And imagine you're this awful, evil person. You have this awful, like evil habit. And most people I think would try their best to hide it, to try their best to do this in secret. This man started a nonprofit charity called the second mile, which actively sought out young boys without father figures from underserved backgrounds. And he used this charity to feed him young boys who he was easily capable of exploiting. And an entire university and community helped him, unknowingly helped him do this. And this man was even able to convince people, people who I knew and I thought,

and I know quite well who I consider to be bright, intelligent people. He managed to fully convince them that he's innocent. He's completely innocent. And this time in my life is when I truly, truly learn just how dangerous it is when you have a very smart, a very brilliant person who is also evil. This is a scary, scary combination. I didn't think a person was capable of doing such an awful feat. Of having such, you know, of doing. I knew people were capable of doing, you know, awful things.

But capable of doing awful things and doing them so cunningly. I mean, yes, this man was caught. He was caught when he was 70. He's been doing this for decades and decades and decades. It was just a crazy time. And okay, sort of our role in this as Penn State football players, this is minuscule compared to what's going on. But I was happy to be there at that time

because I can say wholeheartedly, Penn State is an amazing place. It's a beautiful university. I loved playing football there so much. This was the favorite part of my football career, playing football on Saturdays in front of 106,000 with all of my best friends. I mean, these are the guys you live with, you eat with, you sort of go out with, you hang out with. And a university

that's given me so much that, you know, I feel like I'm a part of the Penn State family. I am. And to show the world that no, Penn State is a great place full of amazing people doing great things. And one man does not define the university. And I was really glad to be there at that time to be a part of that, to give back to a university that's given me so much. Yeah. Because I mean, it seemed like the, as this whole story unfolded, and it unfolded in a very public way. Yes. There was a very, you know, like, the media loves to sort of, like, tell one big homogenous story about, you know, it's not, it was the man. And then, you know, like, soon after we found out, you know, like, Paterno gets, basically the entire staff, the coaching staff ends up, you know, exiting.

And I guess Paterno had planned on leaving before that anyway, who was. Yes. He was planning on leaving anyway. But anyway, everything sort of like the web broadens out and it gets very dark. Yes. I think a lot of the public narrative is that, you know, like this is a bad place. This is a dark place. Like there's no, there's no distinction between, you know, like what happened within a particular arena or context and group of people within the institution and the entirety of the institution and the entire history of it and the entire student body that was there at the time.

You know, there was a broad stroke that got painted in the public discourse it feels like. So it's so interesting for me to be able to talk to you about that experience from being there, from being a part of that team and living it from the inside out and how you experienced and like your decision to want to tell that fuller story and play sort of like a role in being public about it. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, they sort of said that this was, this one specific thing was sort of a clear sign that Penn State as a university has serious, serious issues and sort of was sort of very condemning of this place. And I have to say that it's probably hard to believe unless you're there. And, you know, if, you know,

a lot of people, you might not like believe that this man is capable of all that I'm claiming he is capable of, but it was shocking to me. And it was shocking that it was shocking. Just the ability that this one person had to literally fool an entire community. And as crazy, I mean, it sounds absurd. And, you know, this is what I mean when I say it really changed my worldview. Like I didn't realize people like this, like truly existed when you see it up close when you talk to people that you know and you really respect and they fully believe that this man is

innocent that's just like that's a testament to me to just show how unreasonably good this man was and still is at convincing people of something in light of overwhelming evidence. As you said, the impact on the people who were victimized is not to be understated. And at the same time, you were going through, you know, the effect that this had just on a practical day-to-day way on you and on the team was also just sort of devastating. You know, it was, the entire staff was essentially, you know, like exited. New people were brought in.

The governing bodies effectively made it brutally hard for the team to function um let alone to recruit new players and all this stuff and look like without it going we're not going to go into that rabbit hole of whether that was appropriate or inappropriate it was just it made it very hard for you to be somebody who was there doing something that you absolutely loved and then seeing so many of the people who led this effort leave dealing with the social context of what was happening on and around you, and then at the same time knowing that what was happening with the team, the limitations that the NCAA had sort of imposed,

making it brutally hard to do the very thing that you love to wake up in the morning to do. And I will say I'm happy to actually briefly tackle that question. Those things with the NCAA, I mean, they effectively tried to sort of completely end the Penn State football program without giving us the death penalty. It certainly was not fair. I feel very comfortable saying this, but it pales in comparison to sort of the broader injustice

that was done in this sort of, in this situation. It pales in comparison. It's not even comparable. And that's sort of my, that's my personal view on it. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required Charge time and actual results will vary

Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised The pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die

Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot Flight Risk between me and you, I'm going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you end up staying there. Yes. You actually end up finishing your undergrad early and then committing

to a master's there. And even though there were certainly, you know, there was a curiosity about going somewhere else, potentially back to Stanford. You stay there.

You finish out your time. And then as you're finishing out your time there, you get to a point where three initials, three letters started to become a part of your conversation at NFL. Yeah, that's true. Am I actually, do I have the opportunity or is it possible for me to actually go pro?

When did that as a real opportunity really first start to enter the conversation for you? After my junior year. Yeah, it wasn't until after my junior year. I mean, yeah, people would mention this to me a little bit, but I didn't really pay too much attention. I didn't think it was a real thing. And really, I was just focusing on being an offensive lineman in the Big Ten. I mean, this is something I dreamed of when I was younger. I would watch Michigan and Jake Long on TV, and I thought, wow, I want to be an offensive lineman in the Big Ten.

This was my biggest football dream. Yeah. And also at the time, you're what, 6'3", 220, 230. And the guys who were playing your position in the NFL are like, kind of dwarf you. Yeah.

To imagine that, it's kind of hard to imagine. Yeah. When you're in, yeah, when you're a high school kid. Right. You know,

so, so at the same time, you're, you know, you've got stunning academics. You have a world of opportunity being offered to you there. What was it that made you, that kind of put the weight on the scales and said, I'm going to see if I can actually do this?

Well, I started getting a lot of interest. I started getting a lot of signals that, John, you're probably going to be drafted. This was before my senior year. You're probably going to be drafted, and you're going to be drafted decently high. And I thought, you know what? I love football. I've been playing football for so long. Let's play football at the highest level.

Let's experience this. Let's do this. You can only do this once. You only have one chance. You know, if I sort of finished my career at Penn State and went to start a PhD, there's no going back, really. And so I thought, no, let's do this. Sort of like I can always pursue the PhD. Yeah, I can always pursue the PhD later.

This is my one shot. This is my one shot. And my father was very big on sort of the NFL as well. Yeah. So is my one shot. This is my one shot. And my father, my father was very big on sort of the NFL as well. Yeah. So the draft comes around and for those who don't know, the way that basically

there's a, I guess a three or four day window. Yeah, like a three day window. Three day window, right? Where, where,

you know, out of 15, 20,000 potential people who could be eligible, there are like 200 to 300 spots yeah and then the teams essentially based on you know like certain rankings and and and privileges they just start going down a list yeah picking players and this happens over a period of three days and you know

everyone kind of knows like all the top guys who are going going first and second you get you know like three days in, I guess. Yeah, so I'm on the third day. Right. Your name still hasn't been called. It's gone through your mind. Yeah, it was, I mean, I knew I was going to be, okay, no one ever knows they're going to be drafted,

but I knew with very high probability I would be drafted. But I waited much longer than expected. I, uh, you know, you know, it's a, you know, it's a bad sign when you go to like Yahoo sports and the single best available player across all positions is you for like a number of picks. This is, uh, and when you're on like Mel Kuyper's like, uh, best available pick after pick after pick, this is not where you want to be. You want to be the pick where our team picks you and they said, wow, we really didn't expect this player to go this high. You don't want to be the player where they pick you and they say, we were so surprised they managed to get this player this late. And I was the latter.

Right before you actually get picked up eventually by the Ravens, Baltimore Ravens, you got a phone call right before the draft. Yeah. What was that about? Yeah, so right before I got drafted, the Ravens call me and they're making small talk. They call everyone before they draft them just to talk to you and things like this. And yeah, they were having some fun with me. So making lots of small talk. Yeah.

It sounds like also they were trying to suss out one final thing, which is because they have a fixed number of choices. Yes. And if they take you on, then they're saying no to somebody else. Yeah, exactly. Sounds like what they were trying to suss out also was like, okay, so here's a guy who's extraordinary at this, but he also has tremendous other opportunity. Are you legit in on football, only football? Yeah.

So you end up signing with Baltimore Ravens. That's true. So you are a pro player. Yes. What's it like the first day that you show up there? Yeah, I just keep my head down and I get to work. This has always been my attitude any time I'm in a new place, in a new environment. Keep my head down.

Don't say anything. Don't cause any attention. Just learn and work hard. And good things will happen. And good things do and do happen. So you end up on the field relatively quickly, playing, doing really well, and not too far into your career. You also get hit. Yeah, yeah.

And you get a concussion. Yeah. And it sounds like a pretty substantial one. Yeah, yeah. And you get a concussion. Yeah. And it sounds like a pretty substantial one. Yeah, yeah. Which brings up a whole nother issue, which is, you know, and this has become a big part of the public conversation

about football these days also, which is concussion and how that can lead to CTE, which is short for, what is it? Basically traumatic brain injury. And it's not quite it. It's actually, it's sort of like the degradation of brain tissue over time from repeated hits,

but I'm forgetting what the initials stand for. Although, yeah, I mean, there's no expert on this in this room, sadly. But yes, this is the gist of it. Yeah, and there's research that starts to come out that starts to show, to examine the brains of actually deceased football players, pro players, and show some really alarming things. Some alarming, but very misleading. Alarming, but very misleading. Talk me through this. In the sense that it's alarming because, okay, they sort of do this and they show certain numbers.

And I have to say I've become far too familiar with this sort of particular research article than I ever really wanted to be. But because now, like, because, okay, I retire sort of right around when this comes out. So now everyone's asking me about it. So now I need to, now I feel like responsibility to like, okay, now I really need to know what's going on because everyone's bothering me about this thing. And so I'm like more, I'm more, uh, I'm more qualified to talk about this than I ever wanted to, than I ever would want to be, or I do want to be. But the idea is the headline is something along the lines of, you know, they test brains of deceased football players and the percentage of brains that had like CT, I think it was like, what was it? 98%, 99% or some, some very high number. But, uh, first of all, just that title

in itself is, uh, and the way sort of like, you know, the media picks up on this, or I forget what the exact title was. But I mean, this is sort of sensationalism in've sort of like, it's not that they've, you know, said certain brains have degradation when they don't, but sort of the very act of asking people if they'd like to donate their brains for this study is already a self-selection bias. It's like a selection bias, yeah. Because what sort of former NFL player would say, yes, I would love to donate my brain in particular to a study about long-term effects of brain injuries in the NFL. Well, who's going to sign up for this? People who are suffering from sort of like issues or have some strong suspicions about this. So it's sort of misleading, although the article does mention this issue, sort of the headlines don't. And I would say that what is the actual percentage?

It's not 99%. It's not even close to 99%. It's also certainly not 0%. And it's not extremely, extremely close to 0% either. And so it's somewhere in between. But I think the sort of sensationalism of this was a little out of hand. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to hear that lens on it, especially because you look at it from the, okay, so this is an interesting problem,

you know, and their data points and their assumptions. And like, how do we go about like finding out what's, what's the truth here? Yeah. And I'll say that this is actually, when I talk about mathematics, this is one of the key uses. And this is one of the sort of, this is one of the reasons why math is so important. Not just if you're going to be a scientist or a mathematician or work in STEM, because you need to be able to think quantitatively in life, no matter what you become. Because if you don't, all of a sudden you're going to have a really hard time coping and interacting with things in this world, understanding what, you know, a certain loan means, deciding between two different choices and figuring out which one is better. Or I would argue sort of perhaps most importantly, is being able to understand pieces of information

that you're told and to be able to understand what it actually means and whether or not you believe it and what's inherently sort of latent in that statement that you've just been told. And I would recommend for readers, okay, first of all, I'm here,, of course, we're talking about my book. But perhaps it's bad form to talk about someone else's book when you're on a podcast talking about your book. But this book, How Not to Be Wrong by Jordan Ellenberg, is a fantastic read.

And it really addresses this concept of quantitative literacy for sort of functioning in this world. Because if you don't understand what, you know, a certain statistic really says or what is hidden in that statistic, you're much more likely to be easily misled. That makes a lot of sense. And I wonder if you could kind of zoom the lens out and, you know, we keep using the word math. Yeah. But it seems like the bigger thing that really, really connects you with it and you're referencing here is it's a process of discovering what's real, a process of discovering like what is true and what is not true. Yeah. And trying to move towards an outcome.

It's a process of proof. Yeah. And trying to move towards an outcome. It's a process of proof. Yeah. Which fundamentally comes down to decision-making, you know, and making better decisions in life and finding out what is real, what is not real and what is provable, what is not provable and finding joy along the way. It's,

it's actually, I have to say it's, it's interesting because, you know, often I'll talk to, you know, some of my friends about things, especially perhaps some of my friends who maybe are in history.

Or perhaps one of my friends in particular who's in history and very interested in certain social issues. And we'll often talk about things. And he'll talk about certain statistics to me. And I'm always so... You have to be so skeptical. And I think a healthy level of skepticism for everything you're told is a really great thing. Not to like really doubt people, but when you hear something to ask yourself, what's hidden here? Are there any sort of confounding variables that sort of I should think about? Is there any way in which this thing I'm being told

is sort of not directly related to the conclusion that it's trying to lead me towards in some way? And so sort of thinking sort of critically, I think is a really powerful tool when you take in information in some way. And so sort of thinking sort of critically, I think is a really powerful tool when you take in information in this world. What's that famous line there? Lies, damn lies, and then statistics. I want to start to come full circle a bit with you also. So you end up playing. You do have a concussion, but you come back completely fine. Yeah.

And you make the choice that I'm going to keep going. Yeah. But not too long after, you also decide that it's time to actually stop playing. Yeah. And you go back and you decide, okay, so now it's time to dive back in and pursue your PhD at MIT. Yes. As we sit here now, are you currently in the program? Yes, I have one more

year left. So I'm graduating next spring. Right. What's your intention? I mean, do you have, right now, are you just awash in the joy of discovery? So it's almost a little bit like my senior year at Penn State. I'm sort of awash in the joy, but I'm sadly becoming more and more aware that I need to prepare for what comes next. Yeah. What is that? Do you have a sense? Yes. For me, it's academia.

I love discovery. I love research. But a passion that I haven't had a chance to talk about here, but I mean, okay, we can only talk for so long, but I really enjoy inspiring young people. And I love teaching. And part of this is born out of the gifts I've been given through a specific professor and multiple professors who took a real interest in me. And who sort of without them, I certainly wouldn't be a mathematician. You know, I find it important that I do that as well. And I want to do that in the form of being a math professor.

Love that. So as we sit here in the context of this conversation, Good Life Project, if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To do what you love, I would say. So live a good life. It's to do what you love. And for me right now, it's solving hard math problems, trying to show other people the beauty of math, perhaps in a way that they're not used to seeing it, inspiring young people

and spending lots of time with my daughter. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself,

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conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun.

On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight Risk.