Good Life Project - Nancy Duarte and Patti Sanchez: Leading Through The Abyss

Episode Date: March 7, 2016

For most of us, dealing with change is tough. We're wired to avoid wading into the abyss where we don't know how things are going to end.Even tougher, though, is leading others through change. Today's guests, Nancy Duarte and Patti Sanchez know this. Nancy is the co-founder of her eponymous firm, Duarte, the top presentation design firm in the world. Patti is the Chief Strategy Officer, and a lifelong storyteller and communications savant.Nancy has been on the show before when we filmed a powerful conversation about her "origin story." Today's focus is on the deep collaboration Nancy and Patti have formed, leading the firm through a disruptive, yet transformational reorganization, while simultaneously co-writing a book on leading through change, Illuminate: Ignite Change Through Speeches, Stories, Ceremonies and Symbols.In today's conversation, we talk about the simultaneously visionary, yet often brutal process of creative destruction in the name of building something better and how to tell the story of what's going on in a way that lets those you're about to disrupt understand why it's necessary and share a believable path to where you're all going together.But, there's a deeper story that also unfolds. It's the story about Nancy and Patti's very personal journey, the dance between the fiercely future-focused visionary and deeply empathic and present-focused storyteller. We also dive into what it's like to write a book on change when you're simultaneously trying to take your company through its own process of transformational change.If you're leading people in any endeavor now, or hope to in the future, this is a conversation you won't want to miss! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you How do you dream? And are you born with the ability to see the future? Or do you cultivate the ability to see the future? And when you see it, are you the right one to articulate it? So one of the hardest things that we go through in life is change. The bigger the change, the more we tend to scream and scrap and kick and resist against it.

But there may actually be one harder thing than going through our own personal change. And that's actually leading other people through change. So I'm really excited to sit down this week with Nancy Duarte and Patti Sanchez. Nancy is the founder of the world's leading presentation design firm called Duarte on Silicon Valley. And she worked with Patti, who is a master storyteller, and they worked together. And they co-authored a really fantastic book called Illuminate, Ignite Change Through Speeches, Stories, Ceremonies, and Symbols. And we kind of geek out on how to not only move through change on a personal level, but also what do you actually need to do to inspire people to actually move through change and to rise up and sort of co-create that change in a really constructive way.

What's kind of fascinating, too, is as we had this conversation, they are in the process of leading their own company through a pretty profound shakeup. And they're not all the way through. And so it's kind of interesting to go underneath the hood and find out what's actually happening and what were the big wins and what are the big struggles and the big challenges that they still have to move through. They're both incredibly generous and revealing, and it's a really fascinating conversation, so I hope you enjoy it.

I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. I was desperate to find meaning again, and like old meaning. So I went back to what was my strategy in 2001 when the dot-com crash happened? Like what was I saying back then? Who we were, where we were headed, what we're going to do? And I realized that the promise was that Duarte is a place that you belong. You find your meaning from finding your family and friends there. How do you scale belonging? And does belonging need to scale, right?

And so what we've done this year is we've re-knit our hearts together and we re-connected with what we've always been, which is to belong, to lead, to innovate, and to serve. So one of the initiatives we're working really hard on is how do we give back? What is Duarte uniquely fashioned to become so we can actually impact lives, change the trajectory of individuals and organizations, and how do we do that in a way that's selfless? Like I think the valley right now is this creepy, greedy place,

and I want to be the antithesis of that. How do I be the change I want to see in the valley? And how does my organization play a role in that? And it's been really interesting because there's lots of poaching going on. The ground is seemingly shifting right under our feet all the time. So it's been an interesting season and one that I feel like the spirit of the place is now reconditioned. And now we're going to build a strategy. So that's where we're at. Yeah, so many things to potentially unpack there.

It's interesting also, because you've seen so many companies, and you think companies where they're even at a size where they're giant global companies where the founder, the initial sort of heart and soul steps away. And even with tens of thousands of employees and structure and system and process in place, everything changes. But you wouldn't think that would happen because one person sort of like takes on a different role. And that means the model's flawed. Right, because there's something, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've been surrounding myself with people who I think carry the spirit of Duarte.

Like there's an actual spirit, and it might not be the topmost leaders. It might be other people. And so I'm trying to gather the people with this spirit, and how do I decentralize that off of me? Because that's not sustainable. And so that's been like the key topic in our exec meetings. That's why I chose to write a book with Patty.

We have other people that are writing IP. It's like part of the model is where Duarte does not equal Nancy. Duarte equals this smart collective of people that create brilliant bodies of work that change people's lives. And that's why it was super important to me to not be a single author, maybe ever again, because I do feel like there's opportunities for others in my shop. Yeah. So Patty, how did you kind of come into the mix and come into Duarte and also come into this project? I was dragged. That's how I came into it. I mean, it was such a... You were beckoned. Yes, that's a much better way to put it. Called. Yes, I was dragged. That's how I came into it. I mean, it was such a yes, that's much better way to put it. Yes, I was called I was, you know, and it was a lovely opportunity. And it became really clear early on that the purpose of us writing this book together was not just to kind of fuse our individual sets of expertise, but also to forge this partnership, I think, to help us both imagine the next evolution of the business.

So my role is both as co-author of the book, but also co-creator of the next services and sort of iteration of our business. And the fun part of co-authoring with Nancy, actually, it was all fun. So there were no not fun parts. She's sitting down for me. It was all fun. They were two. Not because of each other, because it was just hard. It's hard writing a book. It was amazing.

I know that. But we complement each other. So, you know, Nancy is the visionary, you know, the one who sees where we need to be next. And I'm the one that sort of feels what going there is going to be like for other people. And I think that was part of the reason that she tapped me to help her co-author this book is to create an architecture for understanding and empathizing with other people, which is somewhat my natural strength. She's an empath. Like, if you look up the definition, that's someone who has supernatural ability. It's a superhero power.

Minus the clairvoyance, perhaps. But talk to me a little bit about the empath side, though, because from my experience, that's something where you sense and feel on a deeper level what other people around you sense and feel, which is both a shield and a sword. It can be a superpower, but at the same time, it can be your kryptonite. It absolutely can. Yeah. But I mean, I think every leader needs a partner like that, you know, and in some ways, the leader can't be sort of drawn down by that kryptonite, because they have to maintain the conviction that this is the right direction to go. But they need another advisor at their side saying, so this is what they're saying, you know, this is what they're feeling. And let's, let's frame it a little bit differently so that their hearts can be open to this idea. And that was really the journey that we both went on writing this book together was undertaking our own transformation and having to test these ideas on ourselves. It was poignant because to your earlier question, we're still kind of going through this really hard time.

And then as the models started to emerge, we could have these really honest and raw conversations about, oh, my God, that's what the people have been feeling. And she was like the empath whisperer for me, right? The translator. Like when I said we cried, it wasn't like, it was like sometimes it was so poignant that I had these moments as a leader where I was like, oh, I didn't see it that way until our hearts bonded. How did, I'm curious, because you're somebody who's started from, you know, with your husband, like there were two people and you built this astonishing firm now.

And it sounds like literally deconstructed and rebuilt the entire thing in the last three years or so. How did it feel for you to reach a point where you realized you had to kind of surrender and invite the help of somebody else who is, quote, able to read a room better? Yeah, and smarter. We can talk about that later. I think that every leader is that way. And so I think part of what comes out of me with this next book is the revelation that leaders the visionary the dreamer doesn't necessarily process what everyone else is going through the right way so that's why i think it's really unique in that i've always been a seer of the future i would say which is elusive to patty and she's always been a feeler of the present. And so I think that that's what makes it kind of a spectacular thing. When people see the book, they're like, oh my God, I can see

as a leader what happens when I make a bold declaration, what the people are feeling. And I think that's the only way that could have ever happened is with the combination of our two natural gifts. Yeah. Do you think that those are two, I'm curious what both of you think about this, do you think that those two sides, sort of like the very future oriented, like this hyper-focused on where we're going versus the empathic,

this is the mood now, can that exist in one person? I think it's rare that it exists in one person. I think it's rare that it exists in one person. I think to cultivate that, you have to almost practice both of those behaviors, you know, by creating rituals, right? You go on your offsite, you dive deep and start to imagine what you think the next thing is, and then you have another practice, another ritual to go and ask people about it, right? So you can kind of institutionalize it, build a process that makes you operate in both of those modes.

But I think it's a very difficult thing. And I almost wonder if this is a new form of leadership that's emerging. And maybe we're asking too much of our leaders to be all of these things because it's not enough to come up with the idea, the world-changing idea once. You have to do it again and again and again. And that's exhausting. Yeah, and especially these days, faster and faster and faster. Right, Exactly. So maybe, you know, we've seen this every now and then organizations that are co-led, you know, by a pair of people, and maybe that's another

model that's emerging, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's interesting. I have, I'm a business partner with my wife and we we operate very differently, but in a really complementary way. I mean, there's a lot of similarities here. And I wonder that, too. Sometimes, like, that's your question. You're like, are we really expecting too much of a single person, Patty, you know, to have the capabilities, like, to have all of the necessary things to effectively lead, like, from one person? Is that just a brutal set of expectations that are almost unmeetable?

Right. I do think leaders need to be a bit more self-aware. I think if you spend so much time in the future, you don't really look at the impact you're having today. And I think that's the hope. And a little bit of the promise of the book is, here's a model, and it helps people see. It's my favorite feedback. It actually came from an admiral in the Navy, and she's people see like the it's my favorite feedback like actually came from

an admiral in the navy and she's like for the first time i can actually see like the scales fell off my eyes i can actually see my people you know in a model that i had not been able to see before and that's about maybe as close as it can get like maybe at least you have a model to work within so you understand what people are feeling at different phases. But yeah, that's funny because we asked ourselves that exact question every day we were writing the book. I bet. Well, in some ways too, the more deeply you understand what people are feeling and identify with that, sometimes it might persuade you to sort of hold back, right? To lift your foot off the gas pedal just a little bit. So I think,

you know, it's funny, because Nancy always emphasizes the empathy part of the book, because it was her learning, you know, her personal sort of kryptonite, right? And I emphasize, you know, the sort of having a vision and fearlessly pursuing it. That's the piece that I learned from Nancy. And I think we need both of those as leaders. But sometimes we need systems around us to make sure that we can be both things. Yeah. And I think my sense is that, you know, we're all wired one way or the other. But that doesn't mean it's not learnable. You know, what the complement to what we need isn't learnable. But I always wonder, you know, will you ever really be sort of like as good as the person

where it just comes from deep within? And is it interesting? I mean, there's so many. It's such a thicket when you start to think about group leadership also because you guys worked phenomenally together. You had this complementary thing. But at the same time, we've all seen leadership scenarios where there are two, three, sometimes four people, and it turns into a total disaster. So I wonder if part of the secret sauce is really understanding each person's orientation and contribution and making sure that you're not stacking the room with three of the same, but really sort of creating the complement so that you actually have that dynamic.

I think one of the things that's helped me identify more clearly the right leaders in my organization is ones that are just as much intuitive as they are analytical like having someone who just looks at the data and then reacts to it without really understanding the narrative and the information and moving from yeah you can collect the information but always move from your heart like always err on human flourishing not on you know you know punitive rules and process and policies. And I think that, for me, has been the big filter for who I can align with. And if you have a shared beliefs, that's why I had to kind of go back to our core values again.

And as long as people buy into that and know how to really buy into the narrative, then it's a better working relationship. Yeah, no, I love that. It reminds me also of the triumvirate that governed Starbucks for a long time in the early days with Schultz, Bihar, and Orrin Smith, right? Yeah. Where they each brought something very distinct to the table. And when the three were in place, there was magic happening.

And then as one and then the other slowly peeled away, things changed until eventually she came back. You mentioned scaling belonging, which is this fascination of mine also. Take me deeper into that. You know, when you build an organization where the promises is that you will, you know,

have your hearts knit together in some way. And then you have people that will walk by a new employee for six months and not say hi. How is that okay? And how did those people creep in that wouldn't even stop? Because what I like to harken back to, I remember one time I came in on a Monday and everyone had a sunburn across their face, the same exact sunburn. And apparently 30 people had spent the whole weekend together at the coast, right? And it's like, that's what I want to see again. And I don't know how it scales, but I do think that when you belong somewhere and you found your tribe and you love the activities, the craftsmanship you're all doing together,

that that's powerful. It's unparalleled to find that kind of meaning where you work. And that's what I want to make sure we have. So I have to create an atmosphere that I either stay that or I create it and get it swirling and beautiful so that I can copy and dupe it and have it happen in other places. Yeah, and I wonder, because there's this idea of Dunbar's number and what happens when people reach somewhere around 150, 200, you know.

They start to divide. Right, social ties just aren't sustainable after that. And we've seen organizations where they grow by creating, like, new divisions of 150, sometimes even entire new buildings just to preserve that. And we've seen organizations where they grow by creating like new divisions of 150, sometimes even entire new buildings, just to preserve that. We did just do something really interesting. It's the vision for this year, kind of relaunching the sense of belonging and serving. And we looked into the guilds of Florence. Oh, no kidding.

Florence, the guilds was the first time that a merchant and an artisan joined together, and it created this place for Florence. Like they actually, each guild had its own quality seal, and those guilds were what made Florence flourish. It was the most prosperous city in the Middle Ages. And so what we did is we kind of broke everyone into smaller teams. So we have a guild council that runs a guild. Each guild has about 15 people in it. And then there's a few guilds in a neighborhood, which is just like Florence has, like the guilds actually created neighborhoods. There was areas.

And so we're going to see how it goes. We have three neighborhoods and nine guilds. And we're just kind of breaking them down into what the power of an artisan and a merchant. And all my craftsmen, my artisans, are needing to learn the business side. It's not like you're there as a fine artist every day. It's like you're in the practice of being a flourishing city, a flourishing neighborhood. And so it's going to be interesting.

We're kind of sharing the burden of the company's ability to thrive. Yeah, I mean, especially when you ask craftspeople and artists to start to take on the business burden, that's got to be an interesting... Kind of a dirty word for a lot of artists. The B word. The F word. Finance is the F word. The other F word.

But it's interesting that you're saying, I've never heard sort of like the comparison with the Guilds of Florence. It's fascinating. If you actually go deeper into Dunbar's work too, 150 is only the number that's become popular, but actually 5, 15, and 1500 were the gradations. And if you look at the villages in Bali that have been there for many, many, many generations, they're actually each village you'll have,

like you'll go to one particular village for stonework. You'll go to one particular village for stonework you go to one particular village for art you know for painting and it's you know like a family like a 15 and then 150 and then the entire village is 1500 people so there's something that's this crosses all everything it's so interesting to hear my favorite favorite thing about the guilds in florence was they cared about all humankind so there was like this criteria that every guild had apprentices that were from poor and unworthy. Like normally you taught your own children your craft. So they actually raised up the social norms in all of Florence too by having a goal to take care of the poor, the orphans and the widows, right? That's what we're all supposed to do.

And they kind of pulled them into this structure. So it's all fascinating. It was a really beautiful metaphor for where we're headed. And until you actually said that, I realized, wow, this is We'll be hanging out a year from now. The journey's been longer than we thought, but we're getting there. But that actually, I want to circle back to that. Because what you mentioned, you know, when we first sat down was that the story is not yet told with Duarte. You're literally in the middle of it. And you were both working on this book, sort of like finding facts and developing the model and applying it in real time to your own organization. I'm curious how it's felt for you to kind of be coming out into the world and saying we've discovered something really cool. And we're kind of like, we've got a lot of pieces of the puzzle, but we're kind of still

in the middle of figuring this all out. What's that like to you? Well, I guess in the process of writing this book and discovering what the journey of change really looks like for people, it gave me permission to accept that it is never really done. You know, again, it goes back to what's realistic. You know, I think that if we want to flourish as businesses and as people, we have to constantly change. And that means that some part of our story is always going to be unwritten. You know, it's a constant process of becoming.

And so then what do you do with that? You know, I think it complicates communication if you're trying to give people certainty, which we all crave. You know, we want the world to be predictable. We want our lives to be something we have some control over effectively. And so, you know, what you can communicate is what you know now, just the little bit that you see in front of you, and then you have to give people other reasons to believe that what they can't see is worth the effort. And I think that's where it comes back to, you know, Nancy's own journey into the heart of Duarte and our bliss,

you know, which is what those letters stand for um is is to uh you have to understand what your core values are because that's what you can hang on to even as the rest of you is being reborn you know we're all just we're caterpillars going back in the cocoon over and over you know and what stays the same a few little genes and those genes are the values that we pass on through stories right to remind ourselves why we exist in the first place that's neat you imagine sitting in a room all day just listening can we write another book say more say more um but you know it's amazing i mean you guys listening can't can't see this but i'm sitting

here across from these two deeply soulful, intelligent women. And as Patty's sitting here talking, you know, Nancy, you're kind of looking over almost lovingly, like, and admiringly. Like, there's just, there's something really powerful. I've had a lot of affection for her. And a lot of people don't, and a lot of co-authorships don't end that way, right? They end not liking each other. And I don't know, I just, Patty knows more about me, probably. Only my husband knows more, probably. I mean, that's how, when you write a book about stories and ceremonies, we both had to go into our relatively sordid upbringings and tell very deep stories to each other about where we've come from. And we both turned out so differently from such the same kind of upbringing. And you just connect so deeply around storytelling. It's been really moving. Yeah,

I'm delighted by everything that comes out of her mouth. Sure. So we've kind of been dancing around this thing that we keep referencing as the book. And a lot of the ideas in the book is actually the official title is Illuminate, Ignite Change Through Speeches, Stories, Ceremonies, and Symbols. And so Nancy, I don't know if you remember this, but I think the last in-person conversation we had was when shortly after you had gotten off stage in Portland at WDS and you mesmerized a room of 3,000 people.

You left them standing ovation and gasping for more. It's true. It's a fact. Of course it's true. And I was there. And later that afternoon, I was just hanging out at a cafe in Portland. And you wanted to. And we sat down.

And we started geeking out because it turned out that we were working on really similar things from totally different angles. I had started becoming fascinated with belonging and with revolutions and how revolutions can apply to the business world. And you had become really fascinated with sort of like movements and speeches and stories

and symbology. And I remember you had to catch a plane or something or you had a kid in town or something. So we kind of split up. And I was just, I've been waiting for this to come out since then, because I'm like, what's she putting together this whole time. So one of the things that you really focus on are these four topic areas as really powerful drivers of change, speeches, stories, ceremonies, and symbols. So take me deeper into what the exploration was that led you to these four things. Yeah, I think as we really dug into movements, we realized usually there's a leader who's leading it. Now, whether they're really the leader or just symbolic of leadership, they all had strong

communicators in some way. And not everybody gives speeches all day long or tell stories. They also use ceremonies. Ceremonies are a lot about the rites of passage, of endings and new beginnings. You're kind of hearing that a little bit woven in our language about kind of perpetually changing. And then symbols are meaningful. They're infused with meaning, usually because they were used in a speech or a story or a ceremony, these random objects or atmospheres become symbolic because of the shared meaning around it. And it was really powerful to walk through kind of the five stages of a movement and how specifically these were used. And they're not all positive, upbeat things.

Like you can do a motivating story, but you also need a warning story. Like there's times where it needs to be like, time out, you guys. This is all going the wrong way. And so there's kind of a polarity to them. Each speech has a motivating speech and a warning speech. Each story has a motivating one and a warning one. We don't talk about our tragedy stories. We all like everything to have positive resolution.

And so it is that kind of comedy tragedy thing, right? And so there's just a really powerful toolkit that comes along with the whole thing, where it'll be your guide, your Sherpa, through leading change and how you communicate, oh my gosh, I need to tell a warning story right now, or I need a motivating ceremony right now. And you can actually kind of self diagnose what your next talk needs to be. Yeah, which is, and I love the fact that actually, I wanted to kind of deconstruct those five stages is, and I love the fact that actually you're, I wanted to kind of deconstruct those five stages too because I think it's a really,

it's a neat thing to kind of see, oh, like these are, you know, it's like the stages of grief, the stages of change, the stages of movement. You can rebel against them and say like, no, mine is different, but there are certain things where it kind of is what it is.

So maybe let's actually dive into that and explore how some of these things really make a big difference. Patty, do you want to? Yeah, sure. Unpack this. Well, so really this model describes the journey of change. And it begins when a leader declares a vision. I see something better off in the distance in the future and we need to go pursue it.

So that's the dream. And we all know Dr. Martin Luther King had one, and he communicated it really well. But just making that plea for a better future is not enough to make it come true. So the next phase in that change journey is that the people you're trying to incite need to choose to jump in to support you on the journey of making that dream real. And that's the leap phase. And it's something that we maybe don't pay enough attention to the actual act of choosing. It's not easy, right? Because change is difficult. People are frightened of going to a place they don't know. And so we have to communicate in a way that actually motivates

people to say yes, at least to the first step. I'll sign on and see where this goes. But very soon, as soon as they jump in, they're going to encounter some obstacles that will really test their resolve, their commitment. And so that's what we call the fight stage. And that can be protracted. It can be very long. It know, it's really a series of skirmishes. And the bigger your idea is, the bigger your vision and dream, the more fights you're going to encounter from the status quo, right? And people inside or outside who are fighting, resisting the notion of change. But every time you overcome one of those obstacles, you climb a little closer to your goal, which is the climb phase. And again, that really can go on for

a very long time. Somebody asked us a question on Facebook. So what happens when you're stuck in fight and climb for like three years? And it happens. It's a kind of a back and forth, like climbing a mountain. It's like switchbacks. You don't climb a very tall mountain straight up. You go back and forth and back and forth. And so that is the messy middle, but it's also the great part of a story, which is really what change is. It's the place where we're transformed because we meet our enemies outside and inside of ourselves and we have to vanquish them and we grow as a result of that. And finally, we achieve our goal, which we call the arrive phase of the journey. So those are the five stages, dream, leap, fight, climb, arrive. And as soon as you arrive, it's actually time to dream again. Yeah. It's not like you said, there is no there there. There is. Yeah. Yes. That certainty thing, right? As soon as you get to a place where you feel like, oh, I'm here, then you realize, no, I'm not. Which can either destroy you or you can learn to frame it as, okay, this is possibility reinvented.

Right. And what I think is cool is that if, you know, sort of like those five steps that you guys have laid out, it gives you a frame, I think, to be able to more easily step into the lens of possibility rather than futility, because you understand that it's a cycle and that it's destined to repeat itself and that that's actually not a bad thing. That's the way it's supposed to happen if you embrace it. Yeah, that's exactly right. And especially if our goals are really ambitious. We may never fully realize them. It's like the North Star that you're guided by. You're seeking infinite truth. You'll never get there, really. You can know more and more things, but you'll never finally arrive at that perfect knowing of everything. And so whatever your purpose is, it's really just a process of continually chipping away at that. And each one is a venture. Yeah, I love that.

I had the opportunity to sit down with Milton Glaser a few years back. And one of the things that he said that will always stay with me, he just uttered this line, certainty is a closing of the mind. And I was like, ah, that is so the opposite of the way that almost everyone experiences it. But yes, if we could just be in that place, life would actually be a lot healthier and easier. Can we dance a little bit through the five stages? Sure. So stage one is the dream stage.

And Nancy, I'm going to put you back on that stage at WDS because you did this astonishing deconstruction of the now famous Martin Luther King's 1963 speech, which, you know, the I Have a Dream speech, the way that you laid it out, there was this really evident pattern, which you also talk about in the book, and I've heard you sort of talk about in different places in your TED Talk. Take me into a little bit of sort of like this,

the overarching rhythm of the dream stage. Yeah, it's interesting because we spent a lot of time, me into a little bit of sort of like this, the overarching rhythm of the dream stage. Yeah, it's interesting, because we spent a lot of time actually, our next book is us double clicking just on that phase, because how do you dream? And are you born with the ability to see the future? Or do you cultivate the ability to see the future? And when you see it, are you the right one to articulate it, right? Like that that whole thing is so fascinating to us and once i mean you can talk to a lot of people and they'll say once and once they've made an epic declaration it starts to come true then you're caught up and committed in it right and how is that and then and then who owns it and the dream communicating the dream i think is one of the most

important things like when just in my own small little sub-dumb bar space in the world over there are 120 people or so. I spend the most time on my vision speech every year. Like I spend a lot of time on it, maybe about 150, 200 hours. Wow. Not only figuring out what it should be, but then articulating it. I rehearse it. I submit it to my team to judge it they co-create it oh big time yes big time because whatever i say and however i frame it they'll either be

they'll either jump in they either leap right there during the talk so we talk about dream and leap as if they're separate but those two things usually happen very quickly so the beginning of any great story is about 10 of of it. And that's basically what, once you cast the dream, you need them to leap pretty quickly or you lose an incredible amount of momentum. So how you cast that is very important. And using a persuasive story pattern for that is very critical, very critical. And infusing it with stories, personal stories or metaphors like what I used with the guilds and stuff where they can connect to it and not feel contrived is a way to get it adopted more quickly. I'm curious about your question about whether everybody is equipped to dream.

Yeah. Have you gone deeper into that? Well, you know, I just did a talk. They had a Jeffersonian dinners at TED, which was an interesting thing. You get 10 people around a dinner table and somebody proposes a topic. So that's the topic I proposed. Prophetic imagination, can you cultivate it? And that was what was put out on the table.

So I had these really cool placemats I made with these provocative questions about the future. Now you see it. And that's part of what we're going to try to figure out. We're talking to people, interviewing people. Ed Catmull in his book, Creativity, he said that George Lucas sees the future like a wagon train west, right? Westward expansion with all the threats and everything. And it's like, I have a visual metaphor. People have a visual metaphor in their mind about how they imagine the future as they take their travelers there. So the leadership name that we give the leader in Illuminate is the torch bearer

because it casts enough light into a dark place or a void so that people want to go there. So I think it's interesting. Like the metaphor I have for my company in my mind is also one of traveling. George Lucas does westward expansion as a form of metaphor. And I do think that it is about traveling through space and time with a body of people. So you end up at the right place in the future. So we're going to start a body of research around that. And how do you see? Because that was Patty's fascination through this whole thing. I was fascinated with her empathy and she was

fascinated with how do you see that? How do you see that? And so I think that's where we're going to head next. capacity to at least see what's next for us, you know, and I think it's entirely possible for us to be able to cast a vision for where we want to go. I think the next challenge, though, is to really immerse other people in that vision. And that's something maybe that others of us who have some empathetic tendencies can help with, because that's one of the things we talk about in the book is we talked a little bit about storytelling, but ceremonies are equally important as a mechanism to help people cope with change and express the emotion that comes up when they're trying to do something

very difficult. And in the dream phase, the ceremony that you need is one that immerses people in that future. Because I'm not going to say yes to it if I can't see it. Meaning, as the traveler, you know, the one who didn't envision this, it's very clear in her mind. But how does she transfer that into my mind and my heart? And so that's where storytelling can be a tool. And ceremonies sort of are like physical stories, you know, creating exhibits and experiences that help me as the traveler experience what that future is going to look like to try it on role playing and things like that, I think are really critical. So anyway, I think that, you know, the first part of the challenge is coming up with that vision. The second part of that challenge is really helping

others understand it, which kind of moves into the next phase, like to move people to leap and come with you to make it happen. Yeah. Take me a little bit into the leap phase. Well, as Nancy said, I think it's difficult to separate it entirely from the dream. Yeah. And for the most part, people will either sign on right away or they're going to dig in their heels for quite some time. There's not much middle ground. No, I don't think there is.

Fundamentally, you know, that's one of the reasons why we recommend both the motivating and warning communication is because there's a choice that people have in that moment to commit or resist, to say yes or no. And there might be some gray area in our minds, but fundamentally we make a decision to either support it or not. And I guess also you want to communicate the vision in a way that provokes a strong reaction. If you communicate it in a way where people are kind of like, maybe yes, maybe no, then it's like you haven't done your job. You want to move them out of apathy, out of not caring. And so, yes, in some ways a strong negative is useful, at least in the sense it tells you where people are. So that's really what leaping is about, is asking them to make a commitment. And a commitment, I mean, it could be anything.

Like when I did the vision talk, standing ovation. Like that, to me, then it was almost like the commitment phase was done. Like who gets a standing ovation at the company vision meeting where you're asking everyone to change, right? But taking that kind of care and really tying in emotionally everything. It could be asking them to sign up to lead an initiative. It could be like whatever it is, definitely you can tell. And I think we have to mark it. Like the commit phase is a moment. It's a marker that, okay, we've all decided officially to jump and leave our safe place and jump into the unknown where we don't even know how big the dragons are.

And I think that's kind of back to the Duarte story. I think where we were, I was just about to jump. And I don't know that I ever counted the cost of how tough the dragons were going to be to wrestle down to the ground. Yeah, yeah. And that's the other thing. You know, I said that our goal is to get people to commit. But if they resist, there may be very good reasons. You know, the dragons may be bigger than we anticipated.

And so we as leaders need to listen to the reasons people are resisting. And we might actually need to attack some obstacles for them, right, to slay some of those dragons so they can say yes and start making progress. So what happens when you lay out your vision, right? And then you get buy-in, people leap, they come with you. Then you get to this fight stage, there are dragons all around you, you're like, you're in a battle. But then like you said, Patty, at some point, you're like, wait a minute, not only do these dragons have sharp teeth, but they actually might be right.

And what if that affects the initial vision that you laid out on a level that really requires you to reassess it? How do you readjust course to the initial vision without losing credibility in the eyes of those who bought in. Wow. Well, I guess part of me wants to say, why are we concerned about credibility? To a certain degree, I mean, if there's a valid reason why this strategy is failing, then we ought to be willing to be vulnerable to admit that we made a mistake. And that's the kind of stories and communication that leaders don't often do often enough, you know, is to acknowledge those cautionary

tales. So we made the wrong decision. Here's how I know. And here's how we're going to course correct to get us back on track. There's no shame. There shouldn't be shame in that if you're trying to ultimately accomplish something great. ahead. These are the core, these are the fundamental qualities of where we want to arrive at. What that actually looks like, manifest, may change along the way. But it sort of goes back to what you were saying, which is get straight with your values from day one and get the buy-in around not only the specifics of a dream, saying this is the outcome, but the specifics of buying into the value in the dream is almost like, let's figure out how to get to a place where we're living from this place again and maybe that

gives you more freedom to kind of adapt yeah it's funny i that's i think why i i had to step in like it i made this big document i think was july it was called the dragon slayer document like it literally was you know we're going to slay these things. And there was a couple of people on the exec team that were like, we can't, this is going to be impossible to do. And I'm like, you watch. Like I even stood up in front of the company was like, I'm going to wield a really big sword here really quickly. And we're going to make fast decisions rapidly, you know, and it was people were kind of freaked out. And I even got an email from a beloved long term employee who was like, okay, we've really enjoyed seeing the warrior princess Nancy, but we really need a moment of the cuddly kind Nancy, right? Because I'm like, this is not going to be going this way anymore, you know?

But I needed to, to Patty's point, just get rid of a couple of those big monsters to show everyone, no, no, no, this is under control. And we're very close to making this manageable. Yeah, it's just interesting. It's been super interesting. Yeah, and I love the fact that you're both kind of talking about this idea of owning a certain amount of intention and will, but at the same time, vulnerability. That is not an easy dance.

I had to get up. i owned it i didn't even say the exec team i didn't say i said i i own where we are right now i had to own it like just because i'm off for four years writing a book distantly watching the little duarte kingdom right it's my kingdom right and uh and i take responsibility for what happened while I was away. So moving through the fight stage into the climb stage. And this is where you guys laid out also. And you have a chart which stays in my mind in the book also where we have the picture of this smooth line. And it's actually this mad scribble that goes maniacally back and forth and forward and up and down yeah and when you take the long lens at it you can start to you know like see you know a smoother line from um you know the beginning to the end um but when you're in it

you know it's and we've all been like in that place where there's a moment where you just don't know anymore if you're doing the right thing and going the right direction. It's the fog of war. Right. And the squiggly lines, like there isn't enough perspective. You can't zoom the lens out enough. There isn't enough of a history and a trajectory to really figure out. And I'm curious what you guys think, because I found that when I'm in this space, when I've talked to other entrepreneurs, that one of the hardest questions to try and answer is, do I hold or do I fold? Is this the part of the hero's journey, which says, lean in and move forward? Or is this the one part which says, you made a big mistake, go home? Do you guys explore that?

Or have you explored it on a personal level? We spent a lot of time there. I think one of the phrases that we said a lot while we were writing the book is, oh, we must be at the phase where you have to go into your inmost cave. That's the stage of the hero's journey where you weigh the cost and you have to go deep inside your heart again, and that's why you have to kind of go away into a cave and get resolve again. So that's why in the fight and climb phase, it's a lot about recommitting.

So there's a moment in storytelling, all the great movies, where it's like they've already gotten practically a lethal wound, right? And then they have to decide, can I keep going even though I'm very wounded? Can I keep going and finish this story? And that's kind of that phase where you either do give up and the great ones go back and reload all their weapons and go. And there were some really poignant moments, not only while we were writing the book, but then as we were exploring the other leaders where we could see that moment of the darkest hour. the book but then as we were exploring the other leaders where we could see that moment of the darkest hour and we chose we chose the stories where they kept going you know and chose to keep

going um we had moments too where we had written a very different book and then we thought we were done and we were all fired up thought we were all hot stuff and we decided we would go to carmel for the weekend and outline the next one before we got caught up in the press tour, right? And we had this very poignant conversation with not only the publisher, but then another friend of ours who so articulately said in a very beautiful and loving way that she expected more from us. And so here we went away instead of like- Three years of our lives. Three years of our lives. We thought we were going to go to Carmel and be like creating more. And we literally sat by the fireplace, tore it up, threw it in the fire crying and decided, you know what, she's right.

So we, that was our dark, dark, dark moment of this whole thing. We went to the inmost cave and we're like, do we really want to delay this? Because it's a year later than we thought it would be. And it created a really big delay. But I got to say, by going into that inmost cave and deciding to fight again after we were already pooped out, we kept going. So there's another thing I'll say about that is, you know, so the inmost cave is a concept in storytelling, but it also exists in real life, you know, as Nancy was just describing. And even when you look at the structure of social movements, you know, we studied the work of Bill Moyer, and the self-awareness, as Nancy was saying, to recognize, hey, maybe I made the wrong choice. I should tack a little left instead of to the right. Don't forget that most likely the battle and the difficulty is greatest when you're closest to where you need to be. So don't lose heart. Yeah, I think that's such a critical lesson, because I know so many people, I think, get to that point. And when the resistance, you know, Steve Pressfield writes

about this in the context of writing, right, the capital R resistance, when it gets the closer you get to the end, like the bigger it gets, and the more likely you are to start either back away or interpret it as a sign of like, if it's this hard, it can't be right. Right. Whereas it could be the exact, I mean, it's almost like it most likely is the exact opposite. I believe it's the exact opposite. Yeah. The more right it is, the more you're going to have to prove your commitment to it, your worthiness for this great idea. Yeah. Which doesn't sell well in self-help land, by the way. No, I would not sign up for that journey.

Yeah. There's a lot of mythology around if it's not easy and graceful and the world isn't immediately rising up to support you at every step along the journey, then it's not right. And much as I would love to believe in that reality, it's never been my personal experience. And I'm not a believer in counseling people to expect that because I think if you do expect it, you're going to get crushed and walk away. And it may be in the context of something you profoundly want to make happen

and would have been capable of making happen had you kind of seen and expected this coming in and steeled yourself and said, no, if this happens, it's likely a sign actually that this is right, not wrong. So what would have happened if Steve Jobs, after getting fired from Apple, had said, wow, this is just too hard. I flew too close to the sun. It wasn't meant to be. And even with Next, struggled to build something that could succeed on its own. But then Apple bought Next, brought him back into the fold.

And everything we know and love about Apple and its, you know, many billions of valuation came about as a result of the fact that he didn't give up in that greatest of trials. Yeah. Apple is such an interesting example, too. It's one of the sort of case studies that I dove deep into when I was exploring sort of nonviolent revolution applied to business growth also. And they literally, of any organization I found that literally ticked the boxes in terms of communication around the movement and revolution methodology, I couldn't find a better example. So I think it's a frame that's really powerful, not just for those looking to build something in business, but also looking to actually figure out how to navigate and communicate what they want to create in life, which comes full circle.

So the name of this is Good Life Project. So I'm going to ask each of you, when I offer that term to live a good life, what does it mean to you? I love what Nancy said about human flourishing. You know, and that's my wish. My dream is to help as many humans flourish, to fulfill their potential as much as possible. And I do believe that thinking this way about yourself is a constant work in progress. And giving yourself the permission to fail and pick up and try again, always in pursuit of that thing that you want to become, is really what life is about.

I feel like so much of my life, what success meant was so elusive to me. And now that I'm, maybe it's because I'm in my 50s, I'm in a season where giving is what makes life good. You know, I'm trying to figure that out right now. And what does that mean to give yourself away to feel fulfilled? You know, your, your belongings, your heart, your, your work, you know, what is that? And how does that make life good? Thank you both. You're amazing. Hey, thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If you found something valuable, entertaining, engaging, or just plain fun, I'd be so appreciative if you take a couple extra seconds and share it.

Maybe you want to email it to a friend. Maybe you want to share it around social media. Or even be awesome if you'd head over to iTunes and just give us a rating. Every little bit helps get the word out, and it helps more people get in touch with the message. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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