Good Life Project - Nilofer Merchant: Big Questions, Deep Faith and Real Power

Episode Date: May 19, 2015

Today's episode is sponsored by Camp GLP, the ultimate summer-camp for entrepreneurs, makers and world-shakers, recently featured in USA Today!+++"Brand is the exhaust fume of the engine of your life."A show of defiance at the age of 18, Nilofer Merchant packed a box, declared she was leaving home and walked out the front door. She though her departure would last an hour, it turned into a lifetime.Since then, her fierce intellect, bundled with a relentless curiosity and drive to learn, uplift and serve has fueled an astonishing career and life. Working in some of the largest companies in technology, she became known as the "Jane Bond of innovation," finding ways to not only generate more than $18 billion in revenue for those businesses, but also rebuild teams and ventures deemed unsave-able.She's written numerous books, spoken all over the world, taught at Stanford and even inspired millions to trade sitting for walking in her famed TED talk. In fact, this entire podcast was recorded standing up in our Manhattan studios.Maybe more impressive than the depth of her curiosity and the quality of her ideas, though, is the size of her heart and her willingness to be real. To walk the walk of someone who is committed to inciting profound change in the world and to sharing her vulnerability and humanity along the way.This is a conversation you will likely want to listen to a few times over and share with friends and colleagues.Links we mention:Nilofer MerchantAdam GrantTim CookHeidi RoizenMad MenTom PetersCarol DweckCandle CafeAustin KleonFollow Nilofer: Website | Twitter Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Okay, you have choices every day. It doesn't matter what's happened to you. All that matters is the choice you make that day and what you make of it. And I think if there is a lesson I've learned, it's to just show up. Show up and live the day you have today, not based off your demons of the past, but off of your joy for today. If you do that, you're going to totally destroy your career. That's what today's guest, Niloufer Merchant, was told when she decided that the topic of her TED Talk would be the damage that's done by sitting and the power of walking during your work, especially walking meetings.

Why was she told that? Because behind her, she had a stunning career as a mover and shaker in some of the most powerful startups and some of the largest organizations in Silicon Valley and in technology. She was known as a thinker, an intellect. She was known as the Jane Bond of innovation for her ability to really guide companies through impossible scenarios. And now she was going to take one of the biggest stages in the world and talk about not sitting. Well, that's exactly what she did. And why she made that choice is something that we dive into. And her extraordinary career, her lens on the world is really something that blew my mind. Now, there's another interesting first, which you guys actually won't be able to see.

But I kind of felt that it influenced the direction of this conversation. This was the first podcast that we recorded standing up literally in a studio face-to-face standing in front of microphones. And it was a really fascinating experience for me. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. Niloufer Merchant is an extraordinary thinker, woman, mom, creator, and somebody who I can't wait to share with you. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what's the difference between me and you? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So it's so much fun and I kind of want to describe what's happening here to people who are not in the room with us, because in a way, it's the way that I think this whole conversation ended up happening. So we're hanging out in a recording studio in New York City, and there are two microphones, but the microphones are kind of hovering over our head in the room, and we're not in chairs. We're hanging out. It's 9 o'clock in the morning.

We're both holding fiercely onto our cups of coffee because, you know, you still need it. But we're standing up. So this entire conversation, we're kind of hanging out and we're not seated. And I think it's a really interesting context to maybe dive into things here because why in the world would we be doing that? Why would we be standing? Yeah. You know, the thing is, so much of our life is in this sedentary role. If you think about knowledge workers in quotes,

we're spending time huddled over our machine and not thinking of our body as related to that knowledge worker. We treat the knowledge worker part like this description as it's all intellect. But it's not all intellect. It has to involve your health. It has to involve your well-being. It has to involve your creativity, right? And you're not going to be creative if your health is deteriorating. And the way I ended up starting doing my walking meeting, so we can't walk because we have to be in a studio. Right. And also because it's really cold. I actually thought about bringing a little stick microphone just, I don't know, like, nah, you know, we'll both be shivering walking.

Yeah, exactly. Although I'd be willing to do it. That's what's so funny is when people first said, you know, when I was first doing it, I started it because I got a lot of kids that I was teaching at Stanford who wanted the follow-up conversation, like the mentoring type conversation, sponsorship conversation. And I realized I was saying yes to them. And I had no problem with that. But I realized at the end of every day, I was doing client work. I was taking care of the team I was leading at the time. I was trying to take good care of my family. And I was gaining weight and really not feeling good about myself. And I thought, isn't it interesting that I'm willing to fit in a mentoring conversation with someone else, but completely unwilling to take care of myself, right? And I thought this is- And you're certainly not unique. And I mean,

that's just the way we function every day. No, that's exactly right. Right? We're like, for especially those of us who are givers, we want to be that person and we feel somewhat selfish if we're takers, right? So it's using Adam Grant's vocabulary. And I remember just going, you know, maybe it's not so binary. It's just like a lot of good problem solving. Maybe if you hold two ideas at the same time, you can reconcile it. And so I just started saying, hey, listen, I'm still totally willing to do these mentoring conversations. But I do those at 4pm every day as a walking meeting. So if you want that slot, come with a ton of shoes and then we'll go

for a walk. And it's going to be a two-mile, a three-mile, a four-mile just depending on pace. And I remember actually having to write a paragraph and describe what a walking meeting was back then. Because people were like, what? What's the protocol here? People were so anxious about, how do you take notes?

And I'm like, you know, there is this thing called stopping if you need to take a note. Like, I just couldn't imagine. There were so many barriers people put up to the process. But I used to have, like, a cut-and-paste note that I used to, you know, I do these meetings. Here's how I do them. And I have to describe because I always got the question. And then one of the people who actually helps in the TED community is one of the staff people there. And I ended up doing a walking meeting to strategize how do we get more women on that stage.

And because it's so important to change the ratio of people that we see in public life. Because if we can't see it, we can't be it, right? So we need to do that. We were having this strategy conversation. I said, hey, you know, as long as we're having this meeting, do you mind if we go – we have 15 minutes before the next thing starts. Why don't we go walk around the block? And I really remember her looking at me like, you're kind of crazy. You know, California, Cornoli type people.

And then what was interesting is she changed her behaviors and she's changed her mechanisms of doing meetings. And then she said, well, and then I've been comparing notes with other people. And I noticed that we've all changed and we can trace it all back to you. So can you come on the stage? So that's how the whole thing happened. And here's the really funny part. The note I wrote back was something to the effect of, you know, are you kidding me? And I said it, I'm sure in much more fun language, because as I'm apt to do in my personal communication, sometimes like, what? And I wrote this sort of joke, because I'm actually kind of known for this field

of collaboration and and she goes no actually I really think this is an idea we're spreading come do it as an act of service you know I was like you know okay and so I ended up uh writing about it in Harvard Business Review and just sort of sharing my experience about all of us are doing way too much of this crowded over a thing let's just see if we can be a little bit more creative. And so there we go. And so now at least I don't have to explain it anymore. So you – and just to fill the story for those who don't know, you ended up on the TED stage. I ended up on the TED stage, in fact, wearing – funny little side story is I wore an Alexander McQueen T-shirt that had a skull on it that had dragonflies coming out of the skull.

So I actually found a shirt that embodied the idea to me and did a very short three-minute talk, which is just super demanding in terms of how tight you have to deliver that. And that talk has been seen by several million people so far. And more importantly, like the other day when Tim Cook was introducing the Apple Watch, he said, you know, sitting is the smoking of our generation, right? And I just was like, awesome. Steal it and spread it, you know. But it's become part of the psychology, at least in America, to spread.

And I think that's how we're going to do it, right? So I'm just happy for that idea to have been shared. So I'm glad for the TED team. It's so interesting because I didn't see your TED Talk when it came out. I saw it you know a chunk later and um and it resonated so strongly with me because that's what I do also and I've been doing it for a long time so people come into you know because I'm I'm sure both of us I always get emails hey I'm coming into the city can we have coffee can we do and you know the least favorite

way to ever get me to do a meeting is can we have coffee right right I'm like well we can pick up a cup of something if you want yeah but if you know as long as the weather is nice outside you know my meeting times are certain you know i have a window in the afternoon where that's when conversation all conversation kind of has to squeeze into that window of time if it's you know barring terrible weather i'm going to be outside walking so if you want to walk and talk with me we're either going to be in central park we're going to be along the river but that's the way it's going to happen are you cool with that yeah and um so it's interesting to if you want to walk and talk with me, we're either going to be in Central Park or we're going to be along the river. But that's the way it's going to happen. I love it. Are you cool with that?

Yeah. And so it was interesting to see you do that because I was like, oh, this is so much bigger. Well, it's funny. I think that's where somebody actually inspired me, Heidi Roizen, who's a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley. And she had actually asked me to go because she said, I do a walk every morning. That's when I take these kinds of meetings. And I came back to the office going, oh, my God, this is the most brilliant idea ever. Right. And so of course, each of us can help pollinate another idea. And, and I think that's,

you know, it wasn't like an original idea in my opinion. In fact, my original note back to the Ted team of the idea of walking and talking can't be that new. It's not that big. Right. But it turns out they've both kind of been around for a little while. And of course, and so that's the part where I do joke around about it. But I think sometimes you just have to encapsulate something for other people. And some people can make fun of the fact that an idea being spreadable has to be like pithy or whatever. But I'm like, no, sometimes it really does take a transference of that level of clarity of sitting as a smoking of our generation and the reason i said that is we're so mindless about it right that we have it just like it was i was

watching that's what inspired it i was watching don draper and the mad men series and how much they were just mindlessly smoking right and it was so much a part of our culture and of course today you don't see it at all and And I thought, that's the same thing. I'm hoping that this next generation is so much more active because we become more conscious about it. Yeah. So it's so interesting, too, because you take this behavior, and so you start to change it in your own life and experience all these different changes. And then I think the interesting thing is your mind works in that, OK, how do we take

this and sort of bring it to a different level? And then you make the connection to say, we need to somehow distill this. We need to sloganize it to make it so simple and so resonant that you hear it once, you remember it forever, and you share it with people. And people often, you know, so one of my friends, I remember coming to me saying, this is the worst possible thing you could ever have done for your career, because now you're going to be known for walking meetings and not for your other field of collaborative work and collaborative leadership. And I'm like, okay, so, so just to be fair, I'll make more ideas, right? Like I'm not worried about that. But I

said, my whole thing has always been about how do you operationalize any good idea? So I don't think this is so, uh, so weird or anything. And if the worst thing you ever do is get known for one particular thing that could be helpful to other people, I'm not sure that's bad. So I found it interesting that people were so worried about the quote-unquote brand of it. Instead of make an idea, share an idea, give it away, go make the next idea, give it away. And then if you're lucky to get it concise enough that other people can take part in it, call that a blessing and move on. Yeah. So let's dive into that, though, right? Because I've had similar conversations and

people are really freaked out. Personal branding, thought leadership, expertise, being known for as the X person has kind of become the thing that you're supposed to do to build your career, whether it's as an entrepreneur, as somebody who's substantial and a mover and shaker within an organization. And there is this really fascinating idea that you have one shot at, you know, one bite at that apple, so you become the X person, and then you've got to ride that out, you know, indefinitely. And, and what you're saying about, you know, I can actually be known for a lot of different things. I mean, known for being really good and really, you know, leading and having substantial thought around it.

And it's not, you know, well, I'm just that one person who's known for this one. I'm going to have more ideas. Well, you know, the thing I thought a lot about this brand called you kind of thing. Yeah. Because I read Tom Peters back when it first came out. And I still think he's one of the most truly a thought leader because he was way ahead of his time. And yet he would never call himself a thought leader, just like I hope I never call myself a guru, right? I find that all silly.

But here's the thing that I think was a real disservice to the idea. What he was pointing to is how each of us can really, in spite of the fact that we work for an organization or we may or may not have a particular rank, it's who you are and the set of ideas inherent to you that matter. And the unfortunate part about the positioning of it is it came out, I'm not sure if you remember this, it was produced in Fast Company. That's where it was first released. And it was titled A Brand Called You. And the emphasis was on marketing instead of on the essence of it. And I find that disturbing, but not surprising, only because if you think about the last 20, 30 year arcs of how value creation happened, there was a time it was about capital. There was a time when it was about an organization. There was a time it was about marketing. And so at the time, when Peters was working on the idea, it got bucketed under how, by the way, Procter & Gamble

was creating value too, right? Which was about brand. And so he linked the two things together that you can have a brand just like Procter & Gamble can have a brand and those two things can create value. And the underlying thing is what is the problem you're solving and how do you solve that problem, right? So somebody asked me recently, they were working on a really interesting idea and we were collaborating on it and I was giving away some of my ideas into their idea, hoping to make their idea stronger. And I said, well, where do you want to go with this? Where are you trying to take it?

And they said, well, I want to write a book and I want to be a thought leader like you. And I just like wanted to kind of shake my head and not because I don't respect. I mean, I respect the person a lot. I get what they're coming from. But I'm like, yeah, but I was looking for the answer to say, I want to help so and so do this. Right. I want to serve in this way. And to me, that's I hope I always say that because that seems the more true thing.

Well, that's and I think the people who make the biggest I mean, the people who really make things that matter to them and to people that they may seek to serve are the ones who I think are, are pulled from ahead by a burning question or deep connection or a sense of service to a person or a community. And in like, in being so deeply pulled to solve and serve, you develop the expertise needed to become, if other people want to say, oh, they're really leading thought in this particular field. But it's not like- But it's a burning question that fuels it. Right, exactly. And I think that's what so many people are missing. So I was thinking about this the other day because I tagged it, in fact, on Twitter on

something else. And this person said, I'm fighting for this. And I thought, oh, that's the right way to say for it. I mean, it's a little bit more aggressive than I might use in terms of language, but emotionally, it's the right thing. What are you fighting for? What is it that you're really pulling towards, pushing towards? For me, all my life, I've had the sense that there are so many voices that don't count. When I was young, it was because I was a girl, you know, in an Islamic culture where girls don't count. When I came to California, I realized that my brownness affected people's ability to see me. And then I would look around in business and see that, oh, admins aren't seen or, you know, there's different groups at any given point that are unseen voices. And not because they don't have ideas to contribute,

but because they don't fit the model of what we expect that idea to come from. And that's been the question that's been perplexing me now for 20 years. And I didn't realize it for a long time. That was the question. I thought it was about how do you get people to collaborate? And I'm like, no, I'm actually trying to get every idea in that room to count equally and to be weighed equally. So it's a battle of ideas, not a battle of rank. Yeah. So it's like how do i create an environment where anybody can feels comfortable being becoming fully expressed right in the room and not everyone will but that anyone can have the opportunity the invitation anyone can right and so once i

understood that as my question that's become like my my thing and once i became more clear about it then it's like okay however i help help that to become manifest in the world, whether or not my fingerprints are ever seen on it even, right? So that if a generation from now things have changed because of invisible work, I've still solved the question for my, you know, so I'm like, I don't care how much credit I get or don't care. I just like, you steal that idea and you make it your own, right? And how can I spread it to you?

So you want to chase that question too. Yeah. No, I love that. It's, it's so interesting to me because about, um, I want to say a year and a half, two years ago, I became really fascinated actually probably longer than that with, um, the dynamic that fuels revolution, nonviolent revolution. And, um, and then the entrepreneur in me starts to say, okay, what can we learn in the entrepreneurial space and social entrepreneurial space is, are there lessons that we can take from geopolitical revolution and transfer into some sort of commercial or cause-oriented venture? Or does it totally bastardize the process? So I start diving deep into this and going to Gene Sharp's work and all this stuff, and I just sort of develop the framework. This was for me. It was my own like crazy,

burning curiosity and burning question. I wanted to figure it out because it was a cool problem. And I also figured, you know, okay, so there's some benefit for what I'm building if I can figure it out. So I started to piece it together. A friend of mine knew what I was working on and he asked me to do a keynote at a small conference and share what I was working on. So I kind of did hesitantly because I thought people would think I was just a freak. And people freaked out. And one of the questions that was asked to me was like, we don't know you for this.

And it was interesting because it came to me and I was like, you don't. And then somebody in the room was running a conference. So he brought me out to Vegas two weeks later and asked me to do the same thing. And that led to a series of bigger and bigger sharings of this concept. And people, the same thing kept coming back to me. People like, you know, we knew you as this person or we knew you, like, where did this come from? Where do we learn more?

And what do we do? And it made me kind of dive back into this whole thing. Like, what's the deeper driver here? And I actually really strongly resisted developing any sort of reputation or sense of like, he's the, you know, like he's the consumer commercial revolution dynamics guy. And I fought it almost violently until literally like people were telling me after I would share the framework, you can't leave us hanging. Right.

You know, and so it's a really interesting process. The engine of your life is how I say it, right? I love that. So don't worry about the brand part, because if you're actually running what it is you want to do, the exhaust actually signals just fine. And then you can actually see even more clearly yourself. So can other people and you can figure out how to tag it. Yeah. And that's – I think we sometimes get the cart before the horse thing, right?

Where we're like, oh, I want to be famous and I want, you know, blah, blah, blah. And really what you want, what most of us want is to be able to chase a burning question, solve that question in an interesting way. So, you know, it's creativity that we're trying to aim for and career is a secondary factor. So we want the idea of creation and the brand is a secondary factor, right? So you got to trust at some level, that's really the issue that's going on with people. They're like, well, I want to hold on to the outcome because that's really, you know, like that's how I'll know if I've done the process right. And I'm like, no, actually, if you do the process right, own that fully with your whole heart and step into it. And the rest really does take care of itself, but it's an act of faith, especially early on

in your career. No doubt. And I think it's actually even, to be honest, I think it's more an act of faith later in your career because you've got something to lose now if you go to that place and it's different from what you've now become known for. Well, it's funny because I'm actually writing a book about how ideas become powerful enough to dent the world. And what I'm doing in my,

because I'm doing unit of one research, right? I'm basically diving really deep into a story and seeing what's there and then like coming back up and saying, what is it that I just learned? So I have a set of questions going in, but sometimes it means I'm relooking at things. But here's the one thing, everyone who's young says, I have, I can't possibly take the risk because I have to earn money. And then some of them, oh, I have, I can't because of this and I can't because of that. And when you're older, oh, I can't risk my reputation, right? So I find it really interesting that it's sort of like the same stuff I found in

collaborative leadership when I go in and work with teams. Whatever level of the team, if it's a CEO team or a mid-level management team or a more broad-burst team, everyone will look at someone else to give them permission to do collaborative stuff first, including the CEO of an organization. Oh, if my team only changed, then I would be a collaborative leader. Right. And I'm like, we're having a chicken or egg conversation at all points. And you got to just do what it is, you know, you need to do. That's so interesting. The psychology of all this. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk.

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I want to take a step back, though, because you brought up your background. So, you know, you're fiercely bright, fiercely accomplished in a wide range of, you know, high-level corporate stuff, high-level entrepreneurship. I'm unemployable is what you're saying. Well, that too. But simultaneously, when I see somebody like you who's just – and you're clearly standing here talking to you and having seen you speak and stuff like that, you're a lit-up human being.

You chase things that are like – you radiate light when you're in a room. And I can feel it in conversation with you, And I'm sure people around you can feel it. And I'm sure. So part of my question always when I find somebody like in this state that you're in is how did you get there? And the curiosity for me very often goes back to younger life. And you brought up also, you mentioned that you did not have the typical, hey, American upbringing. Tell me about you as a kid. You know, where does sort of all this, this steel, this light come from and what were the experiences that really were formative?

So if there is a light, it's because there was dark. And I think, I think one of the things that people really struggle with, so I'll answer your question more directly, but, but one of the things I really noticed people, people struggle with the notion of fear. And what I've just found is there's choice every day. And the only reason there's choice every day about whether or not you choose fear or love. And I would say that from zero to 30 kind of thing, I saw fear so much straight up in my face that by the time I've now gotten to the point where I'm like, no, I'm going to choose love. Today, I'm going to feed the mouth of love and figure out how to do more in faith and less in fear. It's been an interesting decision. And so when people say, well, are you going to acknowledge fear more in the work you're

doing? I'm like, I really don't want to. And I was thinking about this last night because, so a couple little tidbits of childhood, because I can't quite figure out how to smatter the story in. But I was born in India. My mother, being a single mother by the time I was two, had to leave my brother and sister in one place and me in another. And then to come to America, which is just the land of promise, right, to get an education so she could bring us over. So my brother and sister live close to my father. I lived with my two cousins, aunt and uncle in the slums of Ahmedabad, because that's where they lived in a room that was

not much bigger than the room we're standing in right now, which is pretty small, with an outdoor bathroom that you shared with hundreds of people. And then by the time I met my mother again, I was four and a half, five years old. I didn't recognize her at all. And we did not really get along most of our life. And I don't know why. I mean, part of me doesn't really understand. I don't think we ever really understand. And then, but like child protective services would come to the house on a regular basis. And I just had a really, really rough upbringing.

And to the point where by the time I was 17 years old, I was supposed to get an arranged marriage, which I wasn't against because I was raised with the expectation that I was going to get an arranged marriage so my mother would be taken care of. You weren't still in any at this point? It's now in America, but it's culturally, right? And so I'm supposed to get an arranged marriage and I'm all game for that. Like, you know, I signed up to the program kind of thing as long as this was my only thing is I wanted to get an education. So I grew up with one foot in one camp and one foot in the other one in a very traditional Islamic household, one in Western culture. So I used to go to school and participate in like

journalism, right? And, but then go home and put on the purdah and act like this person who had no voice whatsoever. I lived in that duality at all times. But I was ready to get an arranged marriage and then came home one day and there's like this big party going on at the house. And if you know anything about Indian culture, it's like, you know, every aunt, uncle, everybody's in the house celebrating the fact that they've committed me to get married to this one guy. And I took my uncle aside who was sort of representing the family and said, hey, so you guys talk to him about education.

And he's like, no. And I go, why? And he goes, well, your mom wanted the house. So she was negotiating to get a house for herself. Your mom wanted the house more than she wanted to bring up this other thing. And I was like, yeah, but you know, he's not going to say no. But if you guys don't set it up, like I lose a year or two, right? Because then I have to build a relationship with them before I can ask and blah, blah, blah. Like go ask him. And my uncle was this totally modern, modern guy. So I just fully expected him to back me. And he's like, I can't,

I can't back you on this. So I did this totally theatrical thing. I went into my room, I found a box, like just some random box. I put, I don't know, four books and two outfits. Cause of course, books had to weigh more than outfits. Cause like, you know, my whole psychology, right? I pack up this thing and I'm like, well, I'm leaving because I'm the product. And totally, right? The audacity of this move. I can't even picture myself doing this at some level. So I move out what I absolutely convinced will be an hour, maybe three, you know, turns

out it was for the rest of my life. So my mom was unrelenting, like I will not change. And she will not change her mind. It was pure stubbornness. And I was like, well, I'm not going to change my mind. And all of a sudden, I had to go figure out how to earn more money, how to, you know, so literally have to go find a room in someone's house to stay in, slept on a bunch of couches for the first couple weeks, right? Like all that stuff. Because what mattered to me more than anything was the opportunity to get an education.

And I look at that. And in fact, by the way, I'm super embarrassed. I didn't go to a four-year school, like a really top tier for your school, because that was always my aspiration because all my really good, smart friends went to a four-year school, but I went to community college and I went to, I worked my, it took me 13 years to finish college, 13 years of part-time working, you know, no debt, but I was like hustling. And every now and then I realized that's my shame. That's one of my shame stories is I didn't go to a four-year top tier school. Still? I mean, no, I've like let it go, but like, it's still like, if you kind of like really like, if you push on it a little, it's there. And I, and it's funny because like,

I realized one of the reasons I totally understand how the economy needs to reinvent is because I understand community colleges can be the fuel of future. So I so understand the educational system. I was actually appointed by the governor, by the way, to the statewide board for the community college system for California when I was 21 years old. So like, it led to a different, completely different pathway. But what I wanted was what I saw other people have. And what I've learned is that's not actually my path. And so all those experiences of having to face everything now, I'm like, okay, you have choices every day. And it doesn't matter what's happened to you. All that matters is the

choice you make that day and what you make of it. And I think if there is a lesson I've learned is to just show up, show up and live the day you have today, not based off your demons of the past, but off of your joy for today. So serve the person in front of you, be committed to the question in front of you. My whole career at Apple was a question of me getting the shitty projects that nobody else wanted and raising my hand and saying, sure, I'd love to do that. And not really knowing that, by the way, other people had totally passed up those projects, but I'd be to do that. And not really knowing that, by the way, other people had totally passed up those projects. But I'd be like, absolutely. And I would just dive into it.

And so one of the projects that became sort of career-defining early on in my career was I took this business that was $2 million in revenue and helped grow it to $180 million. With an apple. With an apple. Right. But the guy who tagged me in the hallway is like walking around with some spreadsheet. I was off to lunch. And he's like, hey, can you help me with this? And he hands me this spreadsheet and talks to me about this problem and says, this is really a good profit margin product, but we can't seem to grow it. Can you

help? I had no idea, no idea whatsoever what the heck he was talking about. But I was like, absolutely a total confidence. I don't know what the heck I was thinking. I was like, sure, I'm sure I can help you solve that problem. I go to my boss's office and I explain what just happened. And she goes, he's been trying to tag everyone with that. And they know better, they know to run. And I'm like, yeah, okay, but I'll go look at it. And it ended up becoming this phenomenal success. I don't necessarily think it's because I was so brilliant. But it was because I was willing to ask a bunch of dumb questions. And I was willing to give it my very best, like show up fully present to it and not think, oh, this is a stupid problem and it's never going to get solved or it doesn't really matter.

It's like if you show up, you show up really present to solving that one thing, then your contribution level becomes clear. So let me ask you this. What do you think was the role of the fact that you actually went to community college and it took you 13 years to get through to college in you developing the mindset that then allowed you to say yes to this guy where everybody else said no. Yeah. So I don't, I don't, I guess I don't really think you have to have a gateway tell you it's cool, right? There's no gatekeeper in the world who can tell you you're going to be successful. There's no gatekeeper. It's more about how do you have your own agency? How do you create your own agency? Agency being the way in which you think of your own power. if you're a woman in society and you're told, like, let's say I'll use my experience as a youth, right? So an Islamic woman has less agency because her societal structure says you're not

as valuable as a man. And so she could take that on, right? And go, yep, I'm not as valuable as a man. Or you could take it on and go, you don't get to define it for me, what it is my agency is. I get to define for me by the choices I make what it is I can do. And then the rest of it kind of proves itself out. So it's almost like that one decision with your box and two books and two outfits was the defining moment for your commitment to making the same decision for the rest of your life to a certain extent. I guess so. I hadn't really thought about it that way. But I think it was the one moment where I said, you don't get to define. Right. Yeah. You don't get to define it. And which part

of me never really saw myself as a rebel that way. And I still really, I always struggle with the idea of, am I rebellious? And I think at some level, a lot of us do, right? Entrepreneurs and people within an organization, they struggle with being a rebel because that's like the person who's creating problems. Right. But I'm like, you can actually be both a rebel and a leader. But it's also a person who's creating change. Right.

But it's the person who is owning the, it's the constructive side of being a rebel. Right. Right. Because you're creating something new out of what's there. And that's, it's so interesting because, I mean, with the work that I was doing on revolution, you know, one of the things that I found was that, you know, there's sort of three parts to a rally cry. There's, you know, like the, this must end, there's, this is what I believe. And then this is what we, we need to replace this way. And the, this must end is easy. And that's where most people

stop that. This is what we believe. Because you're pushing against something. It's easier to push against something. You know, it's really easy to say that's the demon. Yeah. You know, let's all get together and tear it down. And people will rally to tear it down. You know, it's harder to define what you value and believe and get, you know, build consensus around that. It's brutally hard to say, here's something that we can replace it with, or that's

so much more appealing that people organically move from that source of pain to this thing. Especially because on that last one, no one sees it yet. Right, exactly. So there's a massive amount of faith. And because in the world of entrepreneurship, you may be running experiments and trying 99 things until the 100th finally says, okay, this is it until you fill in enough of... you're starting with just qualities of what it needs to be rather than the manifestation of it. So it's a much more complex problem. So, so many people stop at this must end, you know, and, and to me, it's almost like you're, it's worse to do that than not to start at all, because then you just leave people.

Hanging. Yeah. And it's like, okay. I'll tell you something though, that the thing about the future vision piece the part that's counterintuitive um so you what most society says is find the big idea right but if you're the only person who sees it or what feels like the only person at the beginning it doesn't feel so big at the beginning right and that's the part that's super weird is if no one else sees it and you see it don't you look around and kind of go, am I the silly one or are they? Right.

What's wrong with me? And yeah, and you feel like the total weirdo. And yet every story I'm finding as I'm doing this next body of work is this person who saw something. And in spite of what other people said about whether or not that something was valid, they chased it anyway because they saw something there. It's like a little twinkle almost because it was far enough away. And they're like, I'm still going to chase that question because it's an important question. And even if you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not important. I think it's important. And then you let that tug you towards the future. And the more you're running towards it, you get closer to it. And then you can also signal to other people.

And that story is never told. Like in the vast Company profile, it's a big opportunity. And you can see it as a big opportunity now, right? Kind of thing. And I'm like, yeah, but at the beginning, it was so invisible. Right. It was just some nut job who was doing something that everybody else thought was absolutely insane. Yeah. That is so interesting. And I think so many of us also, when you're in that spot, you're looking for hard data to validate in some way because everybody else around you is saying this is insane so you're looking for like scraps of is there some piece of hard data for me to at least like hang something rational on almost not not even so much i think because you need it because deep down there's a knowing that everybody else is insane and I'm onto something, but it's almost like you want just something to be able to show other people

that you're not insane. So that's just like, there's a little bit of relief from just, you know, a sea of judgment and being pushed down. And, and we tend to so often, I think completely invalidate the soft data all around us.

And, and everybody else does also because, you know, and it's like the push in tech entrepreneurship these days over the last three, four, five years, you know, with lean process and agile. So it's great. It's really cool. It's iterative, but it's all about hard quantifiable data. Yeah. And I think we're missing something.

Yeah, exactly. It's data. You know, but we don't validate it. Right. I think it causes a lot of pain. It is. So here's the thing that I really noticed in tech especially, but I think across a lot of industries, is we keep looking for a definitive answer. Which, by the way, wisdom does not come as a definitive answer. Wisdom is sometimes... Definitive question.

Yeah, exactly. And it's much more even a tentative question that emerges as a more definitive question the more you work on it and you have to give yourself permission certainly um but we got it as a society the one thing if i could do one thing and you know maybe you know fix something with my magic wand it would be to really allow us to value the role of our wisdom role or our, just like I want to value the physical side, right, of how do you take care of health? I want to value our emotional intuition that says, ah, this isn't the question, right? And so what we're doing is valuing just one of our four parts, the intellectual horsepower part, and yet the other parts actually have something to play.

They're interlinked. Yeah, I think there's, I so agree with that. And do we go down that hole out of the rabbit hole? It's funny because I'm fundamentally not a metaphysical person, but I've seen so much now that kind of is beyond just rational explanation in terms of success and failure and how people move through the world that I become, I kind of say like the older I get, the more accepting I become of things that I just can't explain through rational ideas or terms. Yeah. And that's, so, you know, it's funny. One of these, one of these stories that I just found was a professor who at age 64, one of the most accomplished management professors in the field of management and Academy of Fellows and blah, blah, blah, like every possible credential, got asked

when he was 64, okay, you've got like nothing else to prove. You're there. What would you do? And he had this little question in his mind pop up right then. And the question was, all these leaders have been asking him for years, do you deal with the inner life of leadership? And he was like, we have this ethics program over here, but that's really not the answer to your question. And he had always been like, but I don't do that because I'm like a real management scientist, right?

And then he goes – but he says, you know, that's kind of an interesting question. I should go see if I can solve that, kind of leave it as my legacy, like see if I can help someone else teach that course, not him, teach someone else. But then he goes, he tries to find someone to basically take the job on. No one takes it on. He ends up assigning himself the job, gets called into it and hates himself, by the way, in the process. It's like, who am I to possibly chase this question? Because he also feels like a fraud. So he goes and does this whole year sabbatical where he studies all these different faith traditions and comes back, designs a curriculum. But with the help of people he's met along the way. And then he comes and teaches the course. And he's the pariah of the management

field. People actually walk away from him in droves, tell him he's crazy, all this stuff. He's the sixth person in the entire field of management to have taught this work and to build a curriculum around it. He calls it spirituality and business. And then what he points out today is it's a much easier day to live because the neuroscience research shows that meditation helps, blah, blah, blah. And he lists off all the research, but he goes, but 16 years ago, man, that was not there. And I go, yeah, that's exactly it, right? Like that evidence will show up later, but it's going to show up because a bunch of people start researching it and stuff. And so we look at the evidence and go, yeah, well, that's not such a novel idea that values matter and that, you know, all that other stuff, right? Like it doesn't.

But at the time when the first people are chasing that initial question, you're pulling it into being. You're finding why it's a big idea. And that's the thing I think we ought to give ourselves permission on if go pull on the string of interest that you have you don't know what's on the end of that thread and you don't know how big that thread is until you go pull on it right go pull on it yeah my sense is that a lot of us don't because we feel that we'll be if we pull on it and it yields nothing and we've allocated time and energy and sometimes money to it and people see us doing it. And we fail. And we fail.

We're going to be judged fiercely for it. And how do we recover from that? Well, and I think we fear other people's judgment, but I think we fear our own judgment. Yeah, I think it's a blend of both. Absolutely. I'm learning French now. And I find it super – I haven't felt so dumb in a really long time. And I'm not sure I'm such a fan of it, you know, because I'm already dealing with like other stuff where I feel

dumb. So I'm just like, really, I added language on top of it. And my son corrects me because he is younger and in school nine hours a day and stuff. So now he's spending most of his time correcting me. And so for a while there, it was like one out of every 10 sentences was right. Then one of eight. And then now it's like one out of four. So I'm feeling like, wow, awesome. It's coming. Right. And so when now I even get it right, he says, you know, the other way you could have said that. And then he like gives me an alternative sentence. And I'm looking at him like, I really don't like you right now. And finally, I got a way to say it to him. I go, you know, I don't know if you know this, but I'm pretty good at criticism all by myself. And I have this little running little... And by the way, I am smart. I don't think I could ever go for that because I

really couldn't prove it to him because he's that kid. But I just sat there and said, I already know that I'm failing. I already know how hard it is. I have a little inner tyrant who's on the plan, like she's already got it in terms of this. And so I go and you add in, all you're doing is reinforcing this really tough part that says don't try anymore. And what I need instead, this is me talking to an 11 year old, you know, so I might be the crazy one in this story. But what I need instead is encouragement. But what I need instead is encouragement. And what I need instead is for you to say, Mom, wow, that one was good, kind of thing. And then when I ask you the next question, I'll be so much more open. But think about the

conversation I'm really having, right? I'm having it as much with myself as I am with him, which is what we all need is to encourage ourselves and to go, it's coming. You don't have to tell yourself it's hard. You can say it's coming. And this one may not pan out, but it might teach me the thing in order to do it. And that's the conversation we need to start having with ourselves, not as, you know, balance it with all the criticism and stuff, because that serves, that serves too. Yeah.

And I think also we, you know, part of our, part of the invitation for us is to get comfortable in a place of sustained uncertainty. Yeah. You know, we don't know how this is gonna end you know and it's it's so what is that what is the thing that when you're saying sustained uncertainty yeah like okay that does not sound like fun no it sounds horrible right so so what by the way we picked the wrong name for the last one they're like no it'll be good You'll be known as the uncertainty guy. I'm like, okay, that sounds cool. And the book comes out and I'm like, oh, wow, that was, as a marketer, that was just not right. Oh, it's funny, right?

But okay, so uncertainty even sounds like an un, right? It's the opposite. So what is it when you're being uncertain? What is it you're being? Yeah, well, I mean, it's a combination of not knowing. We're kind of hardwired to want to know how something's going to end to the extent where now there's fMRI studies that show that when we have to make decisions or take actions that move us deeper into a place of uncertainty,

the amygdala lights up. So it literally sends electrical and chemicals signals through our body that make us feel physically ill. You know, we don't want to feel that way. So what are our options when we're in that place? Well, A, we charge through it. So we move so fast just to get through it so we don't feel that way. Or we back up. We keep pulling back and back and back and back until we don't physically feel that unease anymore.

So it's not just a brain thing. It's not just a mindset thing. It's every part of us. Right. And we know this now. There is no mind and body. It's all one seamless feedback mechanism. So we have some sort of primal trigger to it. And there's all sorts of theories of where that came from, like the bears in the cave. It's a good idea that you don't go in if you don't know if there's a bear in there or not. So we're wired to avoid stuff like that. Who knows what the origin of it is, but we know it's a very physiological reaction that makes us feel physically uncomfortable and ill. But then you find people who seem to be the outliers, you know? And that's what my whole question with the last

book that I was working on was, are those just freaks of nature or is it trainable? And if it's trainable, how? And there are some freaks of nature, but it's also trainable. One of the questions that I had asked Carol Dweck when I interviewed her, and this interview is on my blog, because I was just so curious about her work and I don't know if it's mindset, right? So growth mindset, fixed mindset. And so we were having a rich conversation and I said, okay, so what is the conversation someone who's having in a growth mindset, fixed mindset. And so we were having a rich conversation and I said, okay, so what is the conversation someone who's having in a growth mindset, what is the conversation they're having with themselves?

What is the thing they say to themselves in that moment? And she said, oh, no one's ever asked me this particular question. And we ended up having a really good thing. She said the conversation they're having, what is it? The way I'd phrased it was, what is it they trust in? Because if you don't trust in the answer being there, then what is it you're trusting in, right? Which is like, it's an interesting sort of bifurcation. Because there's got to be something

if you're going to keep acting. Right? And so her, I thought this was so like, I had this moment of like, oh my God, I think I've paid for like 10 years of blogging. Like in this one little interview moment. And it was this, she said, that you trust yourself enough

that you will figure it out once you've failed. You trust that you can learn and that no matter how hard it is, that you can figure out how to scrape yourself up off the ground and go again. And so the question isn't that you don't trust that you won't find the answer. The question is you know that you are resilient enough. Right. Because it's not resilient. It sounds like it's resilient enough

because if you actually watch my creative process, my husband will be the first. I hope someone interviews him at some point just so he can tell the other side of the story, right? But at 10 p.m. almost every night, my demon comes. My demon always sounds the same. My demon's got a very nice script and says something like,

you know this work you're doing that you're chasing like a crazy woman. And one person's going to read it. Like three people are going to read it. It's never going to get read broadly. So all this love you're putting into each story and all the love you have for the people that you're finding in the stories you're creating and the work that you're doing, no one's going to read it.

That's what my demon says. And my husband has to sort of back me up off the cliff, you know, kind of like every night if I'm still up and go, okay, how about tomorrow? We just look at it again. And really, it's this interesting cycle because all I have to tell myself is I can't worry about the outcome. I can worry about doing the very best work I can do. And then I'm going to trust that no matter what happens with this body of work, it'll serve somehow. Right.

And I have to trust that, which is really like my history does not suggest I should trust other people or other things. And yet love says, trust that, trust that. But it does suggest you should trust yourself. Yes and no. Right. Like I, I have just as many pretty stunning history. Yeah. But I mean like, okay, so here's the thing, right? I got fired from some of those jobs. Like, so what's funny is, yes, I've had- Yeah, but there was always a tomorrow that was better than the day after you were fired. And maybe it took longer than tomorrow. Right. But like your track record suggests looking back, you know, if you want to go evidence-based, there's a much stronger reason to trust than not to trust.

So Jonathan, here's the data points, right? So here's two sides of the same ledger. Like one can say you got raped by a serial rapist when you were 19. You got abused by a mom so Child Protective Services came. You got fired from job number one and job number two. You know, just you could list all that stuff. And then what you could do is list on the other side, you figured out how to get your own education. You know, so like all these things that are positives, right? You figured out how to actually have a second career and a third career. So it's depending on which side of the ledger you look at. Do you look at all the things that have hurt you and that you kind of look at and think, oh, my God, I failed a million times?

Or do you look at it and go, well, I failed a million times, but I picked myself up a million and one, right? And that's the thing. And so when I listen to people talk to themselves, and certainly I have the same problem, so I can see I have so much empathy for it, is you're sometimes looking at the wrong side of the letter sheet. Yeah, absolutely. What happened to you versus what choices did you make? And so if you can sit there and really just train yourself to make good choices about, I will get back up, I will get back up, that's my only commitment to the situation. Then all of a sudden, you know, you have a muscle. You have a muscle you can count on. Yeah.

It's funny because I guess failure has become kind of vogue in the world of entrepreneurship these days. And it sucks and it's never fun. We've all failed a number of times. But I certainly don't aspire to fail. I don't hope failure on anybody else. But what I will say is having made a lot of really bad choices and paid the price and then dug my way out of more, I think, it steals you. It develops a sense of competence. You're forged. You're forged by the fire.

Exactly, rather than burned by it. Right, forged by the fire, not burned by it. And it allows you to eventually hit a place where you're like, I don't know how this is going to end. I may go down in flames. This may blow up and it may hurt a ton. But I've been through that on some level before and figured out a way through and I'm going to be okay.

Well, and it's not just about you, right? I think the one part when I think about what provides that, quote unquote, safety net, if I could call it that, are the people around you it that are the people around you absolutely it's a huge part of it and so this is why my husband's family also key in that story right is um because he does he knows i mean i'm sure he's probably like oh it must be 1001 because i'm absolutely convinced he must know a little chime in the house yeah totally like he's just like oh she's playing that tape in her head again. But it's those people that kind of keep you from the ledge and help you remember who you really are and hold your hand while you're falling. And so it's all the people who stuck with me over the arc of history who have remembered enough of my story to go, you know, this is hard. And so a lot of my friends today, people who meet me now sort of say, oh, you're successful,

you published two books, like whatever it is that they point to. And I'm like, yeah, I'm just as much out there on the ledge as I've ever been. And if you're not seeing that, then you're not paying attention. So sometimes the oldest friends know. And I'm more than willing to be transparent about the fact that I'm just as struggling as the next guy or gal because we all are, and the more we can be that real with each other. And I'll tell you the other thing that I think has really helped is to, when you do have that moment of real vulnerability, is to share it because it lets other people help you. And we then get a community of people who might care about the same question as us,

who might just want to help you chase that question, right? So however they're choosing to be of service, because sometimes you can be the answer to someone else's question, right? We forget that sometimes. They don't necessarily have to have a question, but they can be a part of that answer. And so the community is a much bigger aspect of our society than we often talk about. We talk about almost everything as if it's a solo endeavor, and yet all of our endeavors are in some way, shape, or form informed by our

community. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's actually, I think it's kind of worse in a way in the U.S. I think, you know, we've become a culture that increasingly is dissociated from the idea of connected family, deeply connected friends, and a broader sense of belonging within a like-minded community. Whereas I think if you go outside of the U.S., Europe, like different countries and different cultures, that deep sense of family and close friends and relationships and like-minded community, sometimes around faith, just sometimes around others, are just basic tenets of culture sustains in a way that in the U.S. it's almost like as soon as you're ready,

the job is okay. You go, you move away from the family, you disconnect from all the people you used to hang out with when you're younger. You choose your professional path in life based on certain economic opportunities rather than this deeper layer of things that connect you with the people that you're building or working with or serving and co-creating with. But we're wired to have to have that connection. Like we have to. And we actually do have the connection.

We're just not telling the story of it. So the narrative- Talk to me about that. So the narrative we tell, and I'm just going to use any of the magazines that you and I read, like Inc. or Fast Company or whatever, they focus on the solo picture. Right. And I think that's such a disservice because every person is a function of a community. Every single person, even just the food you eat is a function of community because someone grew something that somebody made something, right? You didn't go out and figure out how to get the milk that went into our coffee this morning, right?

There's a community and we're not paying attention to it. We're not honoring that narrative of community. That's interesting. And I think when we start to honor it, which is why I'm such a big believer in, you know, I have a blog that five or six years ago or something, I had been doing many, many different blogs. And then I finally was like, okay, many different blogs, meaning like I had a personal side and a professional side. And finally I was like, okay, this is insane because those are all me. Why would I be, you know, trying to parse it? And I just brought it all together. And I just said, you know, like, if you can't deal with it, like, you don't have to follow

along. Like, I'm not going to worry about you for a minute. But I ended up saying, you know, I kind of have ideas about what I want this blog to be, but I'm very curious if any of you readers have ideas about what you want it to be. And we went into this exchange. I think there's like 40 or 50 comments in this thing. And people were like, Oh, I really want to participate in that conversation with you and stuff. And so we ended up naming the blog Yes and No. Yes, and then K-N-O-W. And I love that because my whole thing is like, some parts, I kind of view myself

as sort of an instigator to that flame. But you're coming to that flame and contributing part of the bonfire too, so that you can also light your candle from that flame and go out into the world. And so I see myself much more as the keeper of that flame. And then other people are contributing and coming to the fire as they need to, if they need to get relit, if they want to add their piece. So it's our community bonfire that we're trying to build here. Yeah. And so many people in the online world are terrified of that too. I mean, the trend is completely away from that for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that. And I've been thinking about, oh, should I be

writing more at Medium and other places where like, and I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna, I have a feeling, I just have this feeling that those two, those things are separating us, separating us and not connecting us. And I wrote for Harvard for a couple of years. And one of the things I noticed while it served in many, many ways, and I really enjoyed writing for them because my editor is amazing there. I noticed that you couldn't follow the person. So if that person had a train of thought, let's say on collaborative leadership stuff, and I wrote, let's say 30 pieces, if the 30th piece followed the 29th piece, you would never know. You would have to come and rediscover the 30th piece all on your own in some random way. No kidding. So you couldn't just follow everything that one person wrote.

Right. And I thought, huh. So is it serving? It's not serving. Because if you're actually interested in that thing – You want to stay in the conversation. And I think there's a group of people who need more of a body of work. And so like I'm continuing my learning out loud for a reason. I want those people to be able to follow along. And that's where I keep kind of thinking I think blogging is really important if you are continuing a conversation. If you're just self-promoting, I think there's many, many ways to have a medium, you know, kind of experience and kind of reach people in

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That's interesting because I have, I've been blogging since 2007 now and of the friends that I know who've been blogging a similar amount of time, most have now turned off the comment section on their blog. And I've still kept mine open. And it's funny because as you're sort of describing your approach to it, I'm kind of thinking, you know, I've developed a really respectful, intelligent, articulate community around the blog. And I think part of it is that when I write, I generally don't say, I'm the authority on this.

Here's the knowledge I'm bestowing on you. You know, it's kind of like I'm thinking about something today. And this is what I'm thinking. And so let me share it with you guys. How's this landing with you? And it's more of a conversation prompt, I think, than anything else. And I'm like, I may have not have thought of something. I may be wrong on this. Can you guys help me learn? What's interesting is I don't often join in the conversation in the comments. To me, I'm almost planting the conversational prompt for my

community to talk amongst themselves. And every once in a while, I'll jump into the stream. But I don't really view that as my place as much as it's holding their place. Well, it's funny because I was just giving a talk at South by, as one of the featured speakers, and I did something unusual in that I actually spoke for only half the time that I was allocated and I did a Q&A. And my happiest moment during the entire hour was when someone asked a question and somebody else's hand went up. And then they actually had a conversation and I only basically like, can I add on to what that person said? Because they built the basis. And that was my happiest moment because to me, when an idea becomes shared, it becomes more powerful. And there's something about a community really starting to help one another.

That's what I really want to encourage at all times, like help one another because we can help each other up the steps. We can shine together if we can learn from each other. Yeah. No, I love that. It's what we do with a lot on the educational side of our brand also. We create programs and probably the single biggest goal,

because people ask me when we literally just got done enrolling this once a year program that we do. And I would interview people and then a number of them asked me, they're like, what are you looking to get out of this? I was like, oh, that's an interesting question. And my first answer is I'm looking to create an experience where we create such a true sense of safety that people can get very real and very vulnerable and trust each other very quickly.

So that when you move out of the official part of what we're doing, you're no longer looking to me and my team, you know, to guide you. Like you're looking to each other. We kind of like, I love the term, a friend of mine runs a couple, they own a chain of vegan restaurants in the city called Candle Cafe. And Bart, who's, you know, just amazing, sweet guy, said to me once, he's like, you know, everyone there is like a family to them. But people leave. Yeah. And I said, how do you feel about that? When somebody who's been with you for years,

who has been part of your family decides that they no longer want to be part of it. And he said, I bless them on. And I love that. Just the framing, I bless them on, I think is so interesting. It's like, you know, it was actually never about me. Yeah. And if you can come into it that way and say, like, my job is to, in some way, facilitate the conversation and the trust and the relationships among, not between them and me, but between them and them. Yeah. And then wherever it goes, let it go.

It's the spark, right? It's the spark. Yeah, I mean. Or the watering hole. Come, you know, drink from the watering hole because this is a place where hopefully it serves you in some way. And then when people ask a question, they're also giving a gift back. meaning I've provided enough of a framework they can jump off of, right, and explore, then I'm also being served because the smarter the question, the more I sit there and think, oh, do I have an answer to that? Have I even thought about it?

Is that? And you just get pushed and prodded in some way. So here's a community way in which, quote, unquote, thought leadership. I hate that word, right? So I'm sorry to even have you use it. But get shaped. It's by the question. It's such

a gift that we give one another by the questions we help each other with. And so how do we learn how to be in service with each other and value every single one of those people? In fact, I'm writing for this book, which Viking bought, next book, third book, is Viking Bought the Rights To, so Viking slash Penguin. And one of the crazy things I'm doing, and crazy, I just have no idea why I'm doing it. One part of me thinks I'm just losing my mind. I'm writing a parallel story to the book chapter. So if that chapter is about how do you find allies, I'm finding one story that for one reason or another just isn't quite right for the book. But I loved it so much that I'm like, it's worth sharing.

And so I'm sharing it. And basically in the process of sharing it, I'm basically like live tweeting the book effectively, right? Like let me share the thesis thing. And then I'm seeing what questions come up, was it rich enough, et cetera. And I'm doing that as much to serve the idea as I am obviously the community. And then seeing like where that, where that goes. And a part of me is like, no one's really paying attention. No one will even notice if i don't do it i should just go quiet right and in fact austin cleon who you probably know right um just was on uh on his blog saying you should not talk while you're writing a book you should just go dark write the book and a part of me is like

you might be right i just know that if i'm going to write a book about how do ideas become powerful enough to dent the world, I don't – and I'm going to embody the idea fully that it's about the group of people that you end up sharing it with. So I'm hoping that people participate, join the blog, whatever, engage in the conversation and that that ends up somehow showing up in some way that I can't see yet. So I'm essentially trusting this laborious birthing process and trusting this longer road will somehow yield something that I can't see yet. And a part of me thinks I'm crazy. And I very well could be. Stand in line. Stand in line. But also like, okay, well, like, what if none of these people really give a shit, right? And what if I'm just sitting here doing all this work and it doesn't really, you know, all that stuff.

But I'm like, I just, I'm going to trust there's something here about sharing and making it a co-creative process that embodies the idea so much that it will yield something. And I don't know what that is. And it may be nothing. It may just be we all get smarter in the process. I don't know. I think, I love that. I wonder sometimes that if there's a danger in that, I guess that's the wrong framing of it, right? Because I, you know, I guess the concern would be that if you're somebody who, um, feel strongly about ideas,

but also says, I'm going to be open because there are a lot of people who are smarter than me out there and maybe they can add to it, refine it, make it better. Great. Then I guess the risk is that you go so far to the side of letting the crowd determine, you know, like what's really right. Or is that a risk? I mean, you know, you have to have your own vision too. What's the question you're chasing? Where's the balance between that? So to me, it's not about, am I right or wrong? I'm like, is the question,

because I'm really clear about the question I'm chasing, which is how do ideas become powerful enough to dent the world? And I think it's about an original idea that is then joined with other people that is galvanized in action. It doesn't necessarily belong to an organization, right? It doesn't belong because I pay you. It happens because we have a shared common purpose. First, in your deepest truth, you are then connected to other people. So that's the question to me. And then whoever wants to participate in that answer to that question, but I framed the question. And I think this is the same. My job is to hold the question and not to hold the answer and then to be a great explorer and maybe a fantastic articulator of,

and hopefully, right, fantastic articulator of what is it I'm finding because I'm pretty good at seeing something long before other people can see it, naming it, languaging it, helping other people see it. So that's probably going to be my gift in the service of this project. But my job is to hold the question. And I think that's actually becoming, just think about the work we're all doing as leaders. I think most of us were trained with the idea that you needed to know the answer. And I'm like, no, no, no. If you actually own the question, other people can help you with the answer. And in fact, more importantly, they can actually make the answer a reality, which is so much more the thing we're all aiming for.

But it means we have to change our cognitive way in which we're holding our role as leader. Yeah, completely. Because, I mean, culturally the training is, you know, like she who has the answer gets paid. Yeah. You know, like the person who gets credit for the answer is the one. That's where the value lies and that's how you earn a living. You know, that's how you advance in your career. That's how you build what you build. That's how you make money and support your family. And maybe for a chunk of time that's been the way it is, you know, so everyone's

always scrambling for credit within organizations. But, you know, it's all it's also kind of like clashes with the idea of, you know, the servant leader, where it's like, it's, it's not about that, you know, the person you get. And again, it's funny how a lot of our conversations keep circling back on some level to the idea of faith yeah you know faith in humanity faith in you know if you are in some way contributing value whether it's answers or questions or participation that you're somehow you're going to be made okay well you know what's funny is is uh i actually really have noticed that just about anybody can participate but when back when I was doing a lot of collaborative leadership work and helping companies do turnarounds, we would walk in and be working with a CEO.

And mind you, the context was always like abysmal failure had already happened. Like there was always some moment of really – and they're ashamed and they're scared and they have to make it right by Wall Street or whatever. So there's a lot of tension in the room. And I would say, okay, we're going to invite people in the organization to come help us solve this problem. And, you know, one of the first things I would do is have them send out a note to a broad group, really, really broad group saying if you're interested in helping us come solve this problem, come, come, come. And they would always look at me like, you're insane, you know. And I think most of the time they were trying to figure out if they could get out of the PO, you know, right around that moment, right before they had to send the note. Because they were like, I don't really want to talk to everyone. I don't really want to let the quote unquote crazy people into my office in some kind of way.

Right. And I think they were afraid that it would take them off course. And I said, you know, if you trust that people actually want to serve the problem, like serve the need, then you just have to set conditions around that. Or you can frame it correctly and stuff. And then invite people to come help you solve the problem and trust that their interest is aligned to yours. And what's funny is that it always turned out to be the case. We always had like some moment of epiphany and it was always the quote unquote crazy person in the room who had the novel like edge of the thing that helped inform the rest of us and so after 11 years of doing that i was like okay like i think i i learned trust the hard way which is just by doing it repeatedly and now i'm just like try it try it once and most people say well i don't want to try it because it's too risky and i said actually it's on the riskiest

stuff you're probably gonna you're gonna get the most amount of interest so on the thing where you've already failed by yourself anyway, by the way. What's the downside here? You've already had the McKinsey PowerPoint. You've done all those other things. So you want to try this approach and just see if your own team can help you. And undoubtedly it would, right? But you have to, here's the thing.

You have to be willing to not know your point about uncertainty and be willing to listen to the newness that's sitting right in front of you. But that means that you have to just hold the question, not hold the answer. And I think that's the big cognitive retraining we're having to do is if we've been conditioned to know the answer, then it takes us a little bit different effort of, well, what's the question? What's the question? Let me back into that. Yeah. And also I think that honoring the value association around the dynamic of being the one who holds the question. Yeah. Because I think that's the big stumbling point for so many people and so many organizations. I think there are so many people that would love to go there,

but they feel like if I become that person, I'm no longer going to be perceived as the person of significant value. But here's the metaphor I really like that maybe will help the audience listening to us is we think Batman, but we deny Alfred. Alfred was the enabling leader who bought all the tech gadgets for Batman that made Batman, Batman. But here's the other two roles we actually forget. The police commissioner signaled the need. Robin, the friend, helped Batman get back up. Right. So there's actually this interesting four-person collaborative group in the superhero thing.

Unfortunately, no women in that little schema. But it obviously could be, right? The difference in. But it obviously could be right. Difference in all these different ways could be included. And what we keep talking about is Batman instead of the actual Caped Crusader kind of model of there's many people. And so one of my business cards actually say it's my favorite one because all my business cards are all sayings of mine, like things that I've written or said. And so we talk Batman, but we deny Alfred is one of my favorite ones. And I usually hand people my whole batch of business cards and say, pick one. And I just love, like, one just says, discuss shit, right?

And so people kind of go through and choose a Nilouferism that they like. And it ends up becoming a conversation starter. But truth be told, that's my favorite one is because Alfred was this enabling leader. And I like enabling more than empowerment because empowerment suggests the person didn't have it already. I like enabling because I believe you already have power, you already have ideas, you already have gifts. And the question is, how do I enable you to bring it to the table and create the right context? Yeah. I love that frame also. I did a background in yoga, and there's a Sanskrit phrase, jivanmukti, which translates roughly to liberated being.

And what's interesting is in sort of the yogic traditions, it's not – here we kind of use the word transformation a lot. In yogic traditions, it's more – the word is really liberation, and the idea is really just that. It's like you're not changing into something new. You're engaging in a process that kind of takes away all the crud to reveal what's always been there. It's like the classic Michelangelo and the David thing. I'm just chipping away. The stone, it was inside already.

I'm just revealing what was there. It's a subtle shift in mindset, but I agree with you. I think it's powerful. Yeah. So you and I could jam, I think, for days on all sorts of different stuff. But you have a flight to Casablanca. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer that term out to you, to live a good life, what bubbles up?

What does it mean to you? Let me think about that for a second. To live a good life is to know what question you're chasing. And from that question comes your purpose, your commitment, your love. Beautiful. Thank you so much.

Thank you. As always, I hope you enjoyed the show this week. I'm always so excited to share these wonderful conversations and interesting people with you. Thanks so much for tuning in. As always, signing off for Good Life Project, this is Jonathan Fields. We'll see you next time. and meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton.

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