Good Life Project - On Openness and Equality in the Workplace | Deborah Owens

Episode Date: December 26, 2022

We’re in a moment where more people are awakening to the reality that there is no such thing as a universal experience. Especially in the world of work. And often, some blend of our identities, history, biases, gender, race, age, ability, and more play into whether any given experience feels welcoming and filled with dignity and possibility, or exclusionary and layered with inequity and intolerance.And, the thing is, it’s not up to the person being harmed or excluded to dim their light and make everyone else feel comfortable, it’s up to all of us to enter into the conversation in an open, respectful, generous and generative way, and explore how to create cultures where everyone feels at peace, at home, and able to flourish. That's where we're headed today with my guest and friend, Deborah Owens, whose own story has shaped her mission to ensure that every Person of Color is fully supported and equipped for both the opportunities and challenges in the corporate arena through her consulting company Corporate Alley Cat. We explore her family's legacy of social justice before diving into the unique—yet, familiar—experiences and challenges she faced as a young Black woman finding her voice in corporate America and the lessons she's learned since on reclaiming her power, and how you can contribute to the conversation and solution.You can find Deborah at: Website | LinkedIn | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Ruth King about equality, advocacy, and mindfulness.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED: We’re looking for special guest “wisdom-seekers” to share the moment you’re in, then pose questions to Jonathan and the Sparked Braintrust to be answered, “on air.” To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount CodesYou Need a Budget: Your money doesn’t have to be messy. Get a handle on your personal finances by budgeting with YNAB—a proven method and budgeting app that gives you real results. Try You Need a Budget free for 34-days (no credit card required) at YNAB.com/GOODLIFE Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Because if you don't feel powerful at a place that you're spending 40 to 60 hours a week, you feel powerless. How can you go home and create powerful families? How can you go and create powerful communities? I want people to not give away their power. And I don't say get the power. I say don't give it away because you already have it. And sometimes we just don't know it.

So we're in this moment where more people are awakening to the reality that there is no such thing as a quote universal experience, especially in the world of work. And often some blend of our identities and histories and biases and gender and race and age and ability and more, they play into whether any given experience feels welcoming and filled with dignity and possibility or exclusionary and layered with inequity and maybe intolerance. And the thing is, it's not up to the person that is being harmed or excluded to dim their light or do the work to make everybody else feel comfortable in these moments. It's up to all of us, every single one of us, to enter into the conversation in an open and respectful

and generous and generative way and explore how to create cultures where everybody feels at peace and at home and fully expressed and able to flourish. And that's where we're headed today with my guest and friend, Debra Owens, whose own story has shaped her mission to ensure that every person of color is fully supported and equipped for both the opportunities and challenges

in the corporate arena. Debra is a highly seasoned executive and change agent with 20 plus years of Fortune 100 business experience. And her time in the industry has given her a true front row seat to the unique experiences and challenges faced by people of color in the workplace. Her partnership with senior executives as a diversity and inclusion advocate, her role as chair of an African-American employee resource group, and her personal experiences in giant organizations at all levels eventually inspired her to launch her own consultancy, Corporate Alley Cat. And Debra believes in the power of sharing experiences, good and bad, also strategies and lessons learned to accelerate career growth and success. And I'm

excited to dive deeper into her story with you all today. She takes me back to where it all started. Growing up in Louisville, Kentucky, we explore her family's powerful legacy of social justice and advocacy before diving into the unique yet familiar experiences and challenges she faced as a black woman finding her voice in corporate America and the lessons she's learned since on reclaiming a sense of power and agency and control and expression and how we can all contribute to this process. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I am so excited to dive into a wide ranging conversation with you.

What you've been doing over the last, I guess, close to seven years is just so powerful. But there was a big corporate career that led you to a place of you stepping into a very different sort of like way to contribute to the world and to earn your living. But even earlier than that, I mean, you come from a family and a dad in particular, where social justice activism was just, it sounds like it was the culture of the family from the earliest days. That's accurate. My dad was a civil rights leader in Louisville, Kentucky. He was in the legislature. He was a county commissioner.

But more importantly than that, he broke a lot of barriers. I like to call him the king of first. He was like the first assistant attorney general for the state of Kentucky at the age of 28. And I think about what I was doing at 28. I can't even imagine. He was the first president of the Legal Aid Society. He was the first African-American, I think only, elected countywide. And he was in that position for 21 years. And it was not a predominantly Black district. He just did a lot of things that he had to really break down some barriers. And I know those times were tough. He didn't share a lot about how tough they were, but I can't imagine in the 60s and 70s being someone

who wants to change the systems that are in place, what that must have been like for him with not a lot of role models. Yeah. Especially, you know, in Louisville, Kentucky. And for him to then also represent a district that was can get things done, that they're honest, they have integrity. I think the end of the day, that's what people want. Do you care about me? Are you listening to me? Can you make it happen? Can I trust you? And I think that's what he brought to the table consistently.

So you shared that your dad didn't talk a lot about some of the experiences that he had. Can I trust you? And I think that's what he brought to the table consistently. So you shared that your dad didn't talk a lot about some of the experiences that he had. I'm curious whether he did share his lens on becoming involved, on having a voice, on standing up for change. Were these topics that were a part of the conversation when you were a kid? I'm curious how those conversations happened. There is a mantra that I live by today that my father instilled in me. And if you look at my background and some of the things you've done, you will see it show up. And it was one person can make a difference. And so oftentimes we think, well, I can't do that because I don't have enough people who are on board or I don't think people, I'm like, ah, I don't know, should I do this? Is it the right thing to do? Yeah, I think it's the right thing to do. Then

do it. Or as he would say, press on. And so I think one of the things that I've come to appreciate, Jonathan, is that I didn't have a parent who just told me, hey, these are the things you have to do. You have to stand up for yourself. You have to use your voice. It's going to be uncomfortable doing the right thing. Everybody's not going to love your decisions. But what I really appreciate is being able to see that modeled on a daily basis. Not just my father, but my mother is quite the corporate alley cat herself. So being able to see in the seventies in Louisville, Kentucky, I remember my mom going to stores and we're not getting appropriate service. My mother's like, hold on, I'm going to need to talk to someone. This is not okay. And being able to go to meetings

with my dad, even when I was young and I didn't really know, I now realize that I was often in the company of some incredible people. And seeing that on a regular basis in action is powerful. It doesn't matter how many resources, what they say, if it's the right thing to do, you use your voice and you do something about it. You don't pass the buck. Now, listen, that's not for everyone, Jonathan. We all contribute in different ways. But I think the lesson I got from both of my parents is you've got to contribute.

If you see something you don't like, then do something about it. I couldn't just come home and say, oh, I don't like them. Well, what are you going to do about it? Yeah. I mean, so powerful to see that modeled in your parents, not because I think we all know, you know, as kids, anything that's just, you know, spoken, but not actually modeled is just lip service. And we kind of, we don't believe it. If anything, we tend to doubt it. But to see that really from both of your parents, not just saying it, but this is how we live our lives. You made a really interesting point though, which is this notion of defining how you're going to contribute in a way that unlocks your capability. And I feel like part of what often happens in social media

and sort of the super fast, non-nuanced, non-deep world is somebody says, this is the only right way to have a voice, to do something, to take a stand, to contribute, to make change. And if you don't do it exactly this way, that's wrong. Rather than saying what you're offering is you've actually got to search inside yourself and figure out what is right for me. But the option that's not available is to just sit by and watch. If that is your option, I believe then you take away your right to complain constantly, right? If you're not willing to be part of the solution in some form or fashion, then stop talking about it.

I know that sounds harsh, but everybody doesn't have to be kind of this larger than life, make a difference like my father. There are little things we can do every day that make a difference like my father. There are little things we can do every day that make a difference. Little things. I think the most important thing I got from both my parents, but particularly my father, and I think it helped me in corporate America, and it helped me inform how I want to move through the world. And that is courage. I think courage trumps confidence. As an African-American woman in corporate America, as a little Black girl growing up in Louisville, Kentucky, you need courage. As an African-American woman moving through this world today, you need courage.

You have to find it someplace. And to me, courage doesn't mean you aren't scared. Courage means you do it anyway. So when you're a kid, how does that seeing your parents and hearing your parents model this, how does that courage start to show up in your life? First, you have to realize I was very, very shy as a young woman. So I think it showed up for me in small ways. And sometimes it's not going with the group.

That doesn't mean others are wrong, but that just means that's not right for me. I'm not going to participate in that. Sometimes for me, it meant doing things by myself that I thought were really interesting and adventurous. What I learned, and this really showed up when I started working, is that everybody is important. Everybody should be treated well, right? And I remember one of my jobs when I used to work as a sales representative, I was out with my boss and he says, how do you know all these people? Because I knew the maintenance people, you know, the people who work in the hospitals. Now, part of this is that two of my grandmothers were domestic workers.

And I always envisioned that they probably weren't seen. And even to this day, I try to make it a point to. Those jobs of people who clean and make sure everything is ready to go, those jobs are super important. And those people are important as well. bothered me was when I would see people being mistreated. People treated as if they were less than. I don't like that today either. I don't like when people think that they are entitled to be rude or to be callous with other people just because that doesn't fly with me. Yeah. I mean, that's the ethos that you've carried through everything that you've done. I mean, it's interesting to me also that when you have two parents and you're surrounded by their colleagues, their friends, their community being told that all of these things matter. The other is, is potentially like, I could never be like that. I'm not them. And you know, it's interesting. And I think some people have this response of just being incredibly inspired and, and others will almost cower because you just feel like if I can't contribute at that level, like the bar is set

so high, I can't even do it. And yet it sounds like, you know, your parents just basically kept saying, you know, like one person can make a difference and that reinforce and that becomes something that has stayed with you for life. You end up eventually at Howard, you end up moving into the corporate world and you have a big career that lasts a long time in that world. A lot of that in pharma and like, you know, like some of the biggest companies in the world. I'm curious what's going through your mind when you're in that world and what your experience is like, because you're, you come up in Louisville in this culture of, of civil rights and activism

and social justice. And then you move into, and then you go to Howard. And then you move into this world, which is, I would imagine, in so many ways, so different than the culture that you would come up in. You're certainly nodding your head, like maybe not so much. Maybe not so much, right? So tell me more. So what I mean is my parents were instrumental and I have to say, I'm a proud Howard Bison and Howard university was so

instrumental in my development. I was still very shy when I was at Howard, but I learned so much and I saw people who were moving through the world with confidence and courage and power, and it didn't need to be validated by the majority. I saw people who were very comfortable using their voices. So when you think about it, in Louisville, Kentucky, I grew up in a predominantly white city, right? I lived in what we call the West End, which is typically where you will find most of the African-American in the city.

But, you know, I went to schools that were predominantly white after sixth grade. And so I think that going into the corporate world was a merging of what I'd grown up with and then the development of my confidence, at least in my voice, merging, right? Because I didn't see other people as being more important or more valuable than me just because they may not look like me, right? I didn't see myself as less than. I always saw there was a place to use my voice for things that were right. And I'll give you a very specific example. I can't remember all of the details, but I'll give you the gist of it. And this happened very early in my corporate career. And it was very upsetting to me. I must have been like 23. And it was my first real corporate job.

So there was another African-American woman who worked at the company. And they did an EEOC. I believe it was an EEOC investigation. And so they came in and they interviewed people. And it was so long ago, I don't even want to age myself, you'll probably start laughing, but they interview you and there's a cassette tape recorder. And this gentleman is asking me these questions. Questions, I don't remember the exact words, but the vibe of it was, well, you're a Black woman, She's a black woman.

Why would that person be having any issues? Are you having any issues? What do you think is causing that? Or, I mean, have you found that to be true? Like, I felt like he was really trying to pit me against this other woman. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but I was astute enough to know that whatever I saw was only a fraction of what was going on. And I just didn't like the line of questioning.

It didn't seem very objective. And I didn't like the way they were making the comparison. And so I remember answering the questions as best I could. But you know that feeling, Jonathan, when you're like, this isn't right. I don't even know if I could have articulated it, but I knew this doesn't feel right. I didn't even know what to call it. You know, I just knew this does not feel right. This is not right. This is not for me. And so I went to my boss. And at that time, you had to sign your, you know, they do the interview and you have to sign

the statement. I said to my boss, listen, I am not comfortable with this. I am not going to be a part of it. I'm not going to sign the interview. And my eyes were watering because I was so upset. And I was scared too, because I didn't know. This was a new experience. And my boss was great because I didn't know what the response was going to be. And he was like, oh, that's fine. And I saw him years later at a wedding and we kind of joked about that. He was like, you were really upset. And I think that comes from your sense of what's right. What's just. This is a big organization. If there's something that didn't happen as it should have, I'm sure you all have evidence of that. You don't need my experience because my experience is not going to be the same. We are different people. And so that was really the first big moment where I was like, this isn't right. These questions. And then finally, I'm not going to be a part of this. And that wasn't an easy decision, even with my upbringing. But it was so strong, like, this is not right. I am not going to be used in this way. And it was upsetting. And so that's what I say about courage. It's not that I wasn't scared or like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm 23. I don't know this stuff. I don't know what my bosses are going to say. But courage trumped that fear or that sense of this is not right. They are not going to use me to pit me

against another black woman. And at 23 ish, you know, you're early in your career, you're early in your life. You know, it's a level of fortitude that very few of us have because we're just not confident, but it's interesting that, you know, like your compass was this thing, like the seed that your dad planted, like, you know, like knowing right from this thing, like the seed that your dad planted, like knowing right from wrong, like, is it right? Like asking that question, is it right? And then even if it's hard, that's the thing that you do.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. As you rise up the quote corporate ladder and a lot of your work from what i our conversations

over time from what i recall it was around sales in various different ways and leading teams so you weren't rising up within an organization in dei you were in a business unit and you were sort of like accomplishing more and more and leading more people. And yet at the same time, it sounds like there was always a subscript running of, you know, like Debra having to play a different role, whether it was expected of you or you just weren't experiencing what it was like to be in that culture day after day and saying, again, like this isn't right. So it wasn't like this one thing happened when you were 23. This becomes almost like in various different ways, the fiber of the culture.

Well, I think as Black professionals, give you an example. You go into your job, your energy is focused on, let me get results. Let me do the best I can do at this job, right? That's what you're thinking about every day, some version of that. So I'm thinking about the same thing, but I'm thinking about something else. I'm thinking about how do I move through this world because people have put me in a box. They expect a certain behavior from me. They are going to scrutinize everything I do. And that is a heavy load to carry every single day. I remember being at one of my companies and there was a, he might've been a head of HR at that time and they were doing this presentation orientation. And so he said, oh, we've got all of these. We're very diverse and inclusive company.

We have all of these things that we've been doing, but they weren't listed on the PowerPoint. I was just curious. I mean, literally, I was just curious. And I'm a very curious person. You probably know that I've asked you a gazillion questions. So I raised my hand and I'm like, oh, could you expand on that? What types of programs or what types of things have you all done? And the gist of it was he said something about, well, you know, we still have work to do, but we're no different or we're about the same as other companies. I was like, well, my belief is don't put something on a slide that you can't explain. Right. But before that day was over, my boss had already heard that I asked that question. The gentleman got very uncomfortable.

Now, if you had asked that question, it would have been a totally different response. But because I'm a Black woman asking that question, he immediately, I believe, went to some assumptions. And so that's what it's like in corporate. Every minute thinking about, okay, if I say it this way, this is how it's going to be received. If I say it this way, because you know that you are being looked at through a certain lens. And I think it's fair to say that many Black women, I can't speak for everyone, so feel like this country as a whole wants to put you in a box and they want you to stay there. And you're good as long as you stay in this box that they think you should be in and what's acceptable to them, them being the majority.

And that's okay. The problems come when you decide that I'm not going to be in any box. This is not my place. I see my place someplace else. And it's much bigger. And it has nothing to do with a box. That's when you can run into some obstacles and some challenges. When you get out of that box, they want to put you in and you want to ask some questions.

And so I've always found actually in my career that as a black woman, oftentimes a question that you might ask, Jonathan, when I ask it, people receive it as a challenge. I'm just asking a question. But they perceive it as a challenge because in their mind, they don't think I should be asking that question. I should be fine with the way things are. And who do I think I am asking that question? I should be happy to be there. They let me in. What are you thinking? I'm just listening. You know, we've talked about various experiences like this over the years together.

And as a white man, middle-aged white man who's been in and out of big organizations and started my own, it's been interesting because what I'm thinking is how unaware so much of my life has been and how much I benefit from hearing you and all sorts of friends and colleagues share their lived experience of a situation that I might've been in that room. And, um, but experienced just completely differently simply because of who I am and who you are. So it's valuable to me when I'm, when I'm, it's more just, it's like, it's so, I feel like it's important for me to hear your experience because it gives me a better understanding, not just of you, but also just of our shared condition. And, and I think more, the more we shine the light, the better, basically. Absolutely.

We can really understand the truer nature of experience across different people. And that's what, as you share that, I just want to listen because I'm learning from it. Yeah. And for a lot of people, it's very traumatic and it results in, it manifests in illness and physical, impacting your physical wellbeing, your mental wellbeing, your overall wellbeing. This was your story. This was my story, but you know what's interesting, Jonathan? It could have been anybody's story who looks like me in corporate America. And it is their story even still today. At least four times a month, I get a call from someone and it's the same situation.

Different company, different industry may show up a little differently, but at the end of the day, same story. And part of what my mission is, is to get out there and say, you're not the only one. And this behavior is not okay. You do not have to accept it. You do not have to quit your job.

All right. You have to advocate for yourself. And it's hard sometimes. And you have to be willing to say, this is not okay. It's not okay. I am not okay with it and I won't accept this. And that's not easy. So you may be the only person of color in the room and somebody says something offensive about Black people. Now I might be in a room with six other white people. Somebody says something offensive about

black people. We all recognize that, ooh, that was inappropriate. But what do you think happens in that meeting? Everybody swings around and looks at you. I'm the only person of color in the room. I probably had the least amount of power in the room. And yet all of a sudden it's my job. People are looking for me to call out something that we all know is offensive. So we have a lot of jobs in corporate outside of just going in and performing at a high level. Now, this all comes to a head for you. You shared that sometimes this literally leads to physical illness, mental illness for people. For you, you build this tremendous career, but it all comes to a head. Because as we have this conversation, you're almost seven years into your own consulting firm. And the experience that led to that decision to leave behind this really big career in the

corporate world, hit pause for a while and then start your own thing. Walk me through this series of experiences because I think it's powerful to understand the moment and the journey and also the steps that you took to first recover your health and then make a different decision. Yeah. So many years ago, I was in a situation. I believed it was, I was being treated differently. I believe it was discriminatory. And what's so interesting that surprised me is that oftentimes people say, oh, they're playing the race card. I actually think it's different for, for black people. At least it was for me, is that I didn't want it to be that.

I would rather it be something with my performance that I know how to fix. It took me three months before I would even acknowledge it. Even though people were saying, you know what this is, like, no, it's not. And so typically, and I'm just going to say typically, this doesn't mean everyone, but typically, and this comes from my experience doing this now almost seven years, is that you don't want it to be about race. You don't want that somebody is treating differently because you're a woman or you're a person of color. And it's something that happens all the time, but no one ever tells you how to navigate it because nobody talks about it. And people don't talk about it for a lot of reasons, but one of them is it's painful. It's painful. Nobody wants to relive that.

In a weird way, you feel shame as if you've done something wrong and you haven't, but that's how the system is set up, right? And so for me, I had a new boss and we were early in. And I remember we were planning meetings for our teams. And I sent this, my boss, an email letting him know who I planned to bring in to speak at my team's meeting. And actually, I was trying to show my high performance-ness by saying, hey, I'm ahead of this. I already know who's going to be at my meeting. And so he called me. This is the first time we'd ever talked on the phone. And he said, help me understand what you're trying to do. And there is no way I can share that tone, but it's a tone that told me something is not right. He went on to share with me that by

inviting these people, I was abdicating, which is a very strong word when you think about it. I was abdicating my responsibilities and that I needed to do X, Y, and Z. And then he went on to say, and by the way, you send out, you know, I've heard you send out too many reports to your people. And then a meeting that he had come to, I don't know, maybe two or three months earlier that he actually said to me, he loved the energy of it. But now he shares with me that my team seemed distressed. And so I said, can you share with me what behaviors or what you observe that led you to believe the team was stressed? He said, well, I've been around a long time and I'm never wrong. Now the hairs are standing up because I'm like, we have a problem

because we've all gone through with this company. We've all gone through the same leadership programs. We know that you need to have something tangible, something specific. We don't lead based on our gut when we're coaching someone, and it wasn't even coaching. And then he went on to say that, oh, and Debbie, you know, we've talked about you have a problem motivating your team. I said, well, I think we talked about one specific person. Well, even so, you should be able to motivate that person. And just because you don't have a family, you should still be able to interact or connect with that person. Now I'm thinking, now we're in serious HR trouble

because this person is telling me just because I don't have children and I'm not married that I should still be able to motivate others. And so we got off the phone. I didn't say a lot of anything because that very first opening, Jonathan, it might've been divine intervention, but something just told me to listen because something is not right here. So I didn't ask a lot of questions, but as soon as I got off the phone, I wrote furiously notes, wanting to document that conversation. And then I responded to it. Now here's something that often people don't do. They don't respond to that. Now, here's something that often people don't do. They don't respond to that. So sometimes, particularly for black professionals, you'll get this kind of feedback.

This feedback was not helpful. There was nothing coaching. There was no level of coaching. There was nothing in there saying, hey, why don't you try this? This might be more effective. It's just like you're doing boom, boom, boom. And oftentimes we don't understand it. And then we don't do anything about it. And it escalates. And at some point you look up and you're like, how did I even get here? So I decided that this was something that must be documented. And that more importantly, I needed some clarity on. So I sent him a letter, an email. And I said, hey, thanks so much for the feedback.

As you know, my goal is to make sure my team is blah, blah, blah. Very professional. And just an aside, Black women often struggle or we feel like we have to overcompensate because we know anytime we bring up something that someone else might not agree with, we get labeled with the angry Black woman. So in addition to all of that other stuff, you've got to be careful that you don't get labeled the angry Black woman. But I just think the angry Black woman is a Jedi mind trick. And we should totally disregard that. That is a term someone else created because they don't like what we're saying. They see it as challenging. Have you ever heard anybody called an angry white male,

angry white woman? But the word angry just flies when you're talking about Black professionals. So I sent this email and I basically said, thanks. Here are some areas where I'd like some clarification. And so I said, you said, and I put what he wrote in quotes, you said I was abdicating my responsibility, blah, blah, blah. I said, I've attached an email that Joe shared with you and you sent it out as a best practice. And he invited the exact same people to the meeting. I said, I'm confused or I'm not clear on your expectations. Happy to modify. Please provide more clarity. Then I said about this and I numbered it, everything he brought up. And I said, here are the reports I sent. Let me know if I need to add, delete or modify them. So my point is, OK, you've given me this stuff. Now it's time for you to do your job. You need to do some coaching here. Right. And I don't think you, Jonathan, I don't think you should ever allow anybody to dump a lot of crap on you and then walk away. That is something we should not let people do. So then I said, you said that my team was stressed and I went over what he said and I put that in quotes and I just asked him moving forward, could you give me specific

timely feedback so I can take corrective action? And then the last one I said, you know, you stated that this, and I said, I think I've demonstrated X, Y, and Z. I said, let's meet so we can talk about this and address any issues. So what do you think happened when I sent him the email? I'm guessing it wasn't well-received. Well, I don't know. He never responded to it. He did set up a meeting for us because we were going to be in both the same place. But then when I got to the meeting, he didn't have time to meet.

And then to me, it felt like over that weekend, he was avoiding me. And so these little microaggressions continued. And this went on for eight months. Now, remember, it took me about three months to really go, huh, there's something here. But then at a certain point, I remember he had sent me an email and he was copying people inappropriately on them. And I felt like that was an effort to kind of smear my name, my character. And so for me, everybody has a different tipping point. That was it for me. I'll be doggone if I'm going to let somebody, after all my years of hard work, try to damage this reputation that I built. So that was it.

I reached out to some people in my network and I sent a letter to the president of the company. This is where I believe for some people, and even for me, it takes courage. And you're an attorney, so you'll get this. The first line of my email was, I am being treated differently. I'm in a hostile work environment. And this person is engaging in constructive discharge because I wanted to make a statement with that opening line. This is serious. You don't have to guess what's going on. Let me lay it all out for you. And then I proceeded to share examples, only two or three, and I let them know these are some, and I had documentation for everything. It was a short

email. And my last request, and this is where you have to tap into your power. I had given my power away. I just said, take it. I'd just given my power away. But I started to get some of it back. And I said, I am requesting immediate resolution. And you know what happened? A week later, the president of the company called me and a half an hour conversation. The situation was resolved. He apologized. He said he should have intervened sooner. And I continued to work at that company and take on positions of increasing leadership. But what I learned from that experience was that for those first months, I was operating from a place of fear. I was not operating from a place of strength and power, but fear. During that period, Jonathan,

and this is not uncommon, I want to make sure to anybody who's listening to this, this is an everyday occurrence. I probably lost close to 20 pounds. So you can imagine it was not pretty. My hair was falling out. I was taking antidepressants. I was waking up in the morning with chest palpitations, chest tightness. I was probably having some version of what I probably didn't know at that time, like panic attacks.

And what I know now is that if I hadn't given up my power and I'd used my network, that that situation that was eight months long probably could have been resolved in four to six weeks. But I didn't know. And after I got off the call with the president, I literally said to myself, I never want anyone else to ever have to go through this because it was that horrific. It was horrific. And I don't think people realize. And so I'm going to, I'd like to speak to everybody who's in your audience, whether you're a person of color or you're not. When you put someone through those experiences, I want people to understand that, you know, just saying, hey, I wasn't intentional. Sorry, you know, maybe we should have done something different. It doesn't turn off. It doesn't make it okay. Because that trauma has occurred. And people ask me all the time, they're like, well, how long did it take

you to get through that? I'm honest. I'm like, it was about a couple of years before I felt like myself again. So you are inflicting trauma on other people that is unnecessary. And throwing somebody a few bucks does not fix it. Saying you're sorry. I mean, I appreciate that doesn't fix it. This is something that has happened to me and it is going to take time to heal. So at that moment, even though I stayed with my organization, I knew that I wanted to do something because I'm someone, my dad's an attorney. I had internal support in the organization. I was a high performer and I still didn't know what to do. I was like, what? Oh my God, is this discrimination? Please don't let it be discrimination because I don't know what to do with this. I don't what am I supposed to do? And it's very isolating because you can't talk to people about it.

You can't go up to someone and say, hey, Jonathan, I think that so-and-so is treating me differently because I'm a black woman. That is something you don't do. Now, I could come up to you and say, hey, I think my boss is drinking on the job. I think he's doing coke in the office. None of this was going on with my boss. I'm just giving an example. But you can't say, I think somebody is discriminating against me or treating me differently because of my race. Because that, would you agree, is explosive. That just gets people all worked up. So you're really going through it by yourself. It's very isolating. You don't know who to trust. And it's just a very, very lonely existence. And while all of this is going on,

you have to show up every day looking great. And when people say, hey, Debbie, how's it going? Oh, it's great. But inside, you're like that cat barely hanging on to a wall. And actually, I shared the story on LinkedIn and some of my former colleagues were like, when did this happen? I had no idea. Of course you had no idea. Black women, I think, do this best, but many people do it. But I think black women do it best. Best. We wear the mask. We can wear the mask and and there could be all kinds of things going on and you will never know. And it's that extra stuff that you're dealing with every day that I think needs to stop. And that's why I started the Corporate Alley Cat, because I wanted

to say to people, listen, you can operate from a strength of power. You can ask for what you need. I asked for immediate resolution. I didn't say, hey, would you look into this? You know, I think this is some concerning behavior. I'm like, listen, you're going to have to resolve this immediately. You know, I didn't ease into my email like, hey, I wanted to let you know what's going on or I'm disturbed by this behavior. No, listen, this is what's going on because people get it. And a friend of mine who's a wonderful civil rights attorney, Donald Temple, he said to me, Debbie, if you hit it soft, they're going to respond soft. If you hit it hard, that's how they're going to respond. Those words just stuck with me because I think if I had approached it differently, very soft and, hey, is there anything you can do about this?

I would have had a totally different outcome. And it wasn't just the letter. And this is this is, I think, one of the things I focus on the corporate alley cat. Oftentimes, black black professionals, we don't like and brown. We don't have strategic relationships in the organization. We go in because, listen, I was told the same thing. Go in, work hard. You know, some people are told, keep your head down and everything will work out. And you've been in corporate, you know, that's not how it works.

So what happens is when we find ourselves in these situations, we don't have any strategic relationships. I'm not talking about knowing people in the organization. I'm talking about people that you can go to and say, hey, listen, Jonathan, there's a problem. I'm going to need your support or I need your guidance, right? And strategic being at a level where they can have an impact. Oftentimes we don't have those relationships. And so we don't have people to reach out to. And sometimes even when we do have those situations and we do have people who would be happy to support us, we don't. Because there's not a manual on what to do, which will be my book,

what to do when you're discriminated against in corporate America. I mean, at this day and time, there needs to be a handbook because it will save not only the individual going through it, but the organization a lot of time and money because all of this impacts organizational morale. And so that's really how the Corporate Alley Cat came about. I was just like, this is crazy. We should know how to address these situations without derailing our careers. You've done nothing wrong. And I have a mentor who said to me during this time, because I at one point I just had it. I was like, you know what, I'm going to interview for another position and it'll get me back to this location. And it was a it was kind of a step down. And I told my mentor this.

And he said to me, he said, Debbie, you stay right where you are. You've done nothing wrong. Don't you interview for that position. And I withdrew my name. And I would say, yeah, a few weeks later, it was resolved. So you need people because it's, you can't, you don't make your, the best decisions when you're in that state. And the other thing that helped me, and this is where I got a lot of my power from, is you have to have a financial cushion. You have to have money put away. I call it the FU fund. You need that money. So if you wake up one morning and you're like, F you, you're going to be fine. And so even though I wanted to quit

every day, I knew I had my F you fund. And I knew that I actually could if I wanted to. So it was easier for me to stay in the game. I didn't know what was going to happen with my situation, but I was like, I don't want anybody else to go through this. I want there to be documentation in this file, because even if they can't do anything about my situation, I don't want them to be able to say they didn't know, because there are other people who this person is going to interact with, and I don't want them to have to experience this. And I don't want to give the organization or the powers that be any excuses the next time this happens. These things have got to be addressed quickly, justly, and in a way that causes the least amount of harm to an individual. about this, but for lack of a better word, it really is my ministry. I mean, I would do this if I never got paid for it because it's that important. Because if you don't feel powerful

at a place that you're spending 40 to 60 hours a week, you feel powerless. How can you go home and create powerful families? How can you go and create powerful communities? I want people to not give away their power. And I don't say get the power. I say don't give it away because you already have it. And sometimes we just don't know it. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.. Tell me how to fly this thing. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I mean, it's interesting, because a lot of what you're describing also is you end up, I mean, this becomes a kind of like an inciting incident for you to then go and effectively take some time to really recover your health at that point to a certain extent, and then also get comfortable that you're making clear and good decisions and then open your own consulting firm, which essentially is just to create an engine for when you had that thought going through your mind, like, I don't want anyone else to go through this. But who do they turn to at a moment like this to understand how to navigate it? And you're like, I need to be the person.

I need to create the structure and the guidance and the support because you're not the only one that leads you to leave behind this corporate job. Years later. Right. Years later, years later to create your own thing. You shared the name Corporate Alley Cat. I'm curious when you make that decision, because for anybody, regardless of the circumstance, to leave behind a big career in a big industry where you've built is a huge decision. And most people never do it because they just can't fathom leaving behind all that stuff. as you had been thinking about in the earlier days, like find a lateral position in another big company, but to start your own thing from the ground up, I have no doubt that you had courage and conviction. Like you knew what you were doing. You knew why you were doing it. You knew what you wanted to do, but at the same time, this is new to you. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, you can have courage and conviction, but that doesn't make a business. You can't build a business out of that.

Right. So I, part of my curiosity is just like in the early days, especially like when you're imagining, what do I want this to be? What does it need to be? And what do people who I want to be in service of want it to be and need from me? Like, I'm curious what was going on and how you navigated, especially those early big questions to, to build structure and form and product and service around this thing that has now become, you know, a meaningful and sustained business. Well, let's just say there was a steep learning curve because my mission has never changed from day one. The mission has always been the same. But what I envisioned five-ish years ago is not what the company looks like today. So it's kind of evolved.

And for part of that, quite honestly, Jonathan, all I had was my courage and conviction. That was really my starting point. I reached out to a lot of people, got help like other entrepreneurs do, courses, tapping into, I mean, Facebook groups, had a coach at one point. And it just kind of evolved. You know, those first few years, I didn't have an infrastructure. I was just doing it. And somehow, it all came together. I had one client, and then I was doing something, and one client said, hey, can we do this for our corporation? and as any good entrepreneur, I answered, of course. I didn't know what that looked like. I was like, of course we can. And so that kind of changed the way we did it.

And then word started to get out. Even now people, you know, it's not out as much as I would like it to be out, but people, one of the things that I get the most is people say, I wish I had this 10 years ago. But what I say to people, it doesn't matter if you had this 10 years ago or not. You have it now. So use it. And oftentimes people think, oh, this is so great for entry-level people who are just

joining the workplace. Our average person, our average community member is between 32 and I would say 52. So these are experienced people who get it right away. I mean, literally, I can say corporate alley cat. They're like, oh, I like that. Because they already know. They already can sense that it's about tapping into your power. But I would say that it was through trial and error. It was talking to people. I knew the information that would be helpful. There was no doubt in my mind. But how you package it, how you present it to individuals, how you present it to corporations, that's something that took a minute. You know, how do I develop these products?

How do I get them out to the right people? How do I get corporations to invest in these programs for their employees? How do I get individuals to say, hey, there is experience, I enjoyed my corporate experience. Right. So I'm not against that. I'm just for people having options, whether that's I want to stay in my company and I want to advance and I want to lead the organization or whether it's this isn't right for me. I want to transition, right? But I'm very vested in helping people where they are, have a good experience and productive experience in corporate. Even if you want to leave five years from now, I'm like, don't quit now. Don't quit in place. Don't do that. Leverage the experiences now that are going to make it easy for you when you go out on your own. Or, you know, I have so many people. I also do some one-on-one coaching. And these are people, if you met them, Jonathan, you would be like, wow, why would they need

coaching? And a lot of it comes down to confidence and really just not knowing, am I doing it right? Because we're just all winging it. Because there's data out there that shows, I'll give you the data for Black women, but I think it could apply to many professionals of color, is that we are the least supported by our managers. We have the most experience with bias and microaggressions. We are more likely to be very underrepresented in an organization. We are the least likely to be promoted to manager. So these are numerous studies. And Sheryl Sandberg's group, LeanIn.org, did a study with McKinsey. And they did a subsection of women of color in the workplace. And it's, I believe, one of the largest studies ever done for women of color. And it basically lays it out. Here are the obstacles that we're constantly running into or the ceilings we're bumping up against. And this does come from my parents. I believe there's a lot of information

out there that talks about the experiences of Black and Brown professionals in corporate. I don't think there's enough information that says, okay, we know these things exist. Now, what do we do about it? I'm like, I don't want to talk about these experiences forever. We know they happen. Let's talk about how we address them so that it doesn't derail your career and you can continue advancing, accelerating your career without having to do all of this trauma. But I think we know the situations now. Let's talk about solutions. Let's talk about strategies. Let's talk about how you're not just getting through corporate, but you're thriving in corporate. And we've come up with some strategies that, I mean, we've done it with thousands of people now. And I think it's, a lot of it is my understanding of not just the

corporate culture, but the cultural norms that inform how we approach things. And I think you kind of have to live it to be able to tap into that, because these are things that people aren't going to say to you, right? But oftentimes people will say, you know, I was just raised not to, you know, I just don't, I don't really want to be a troublemaker. I don't really want to rock the boat. And I believe these are messages that have been passed down for generations because at one point you really, they came from a place of love because if you did those things, it wasn't safe for you, right? Like you don't want to be the smartest person in the room.

You don't want to talk about your accomplishments. You don't want to show off because you may not make it home. But times have changed. And so that's what we do. We have a wonderful community. We have so many people who are like, I didn't even know this. idea because this may or may not be controversial, but I believe Black people are just working too hard. We are just working too hard with a low return on investment because we're focusing on the things we know, which is to work hard and oftentimes staying away from the things that make us uncomfortable, like building those relationships, getting to know the partners, getting to know the executive, getting to know the executive leaders in your organization. So because we don't know or we're not comfortable doing that, we double down on working hard. And that is an equation that just doesn't work for most people.

And so what we're doing is saying, hey, you don't have to kill yourself here. Of course, you want to perform at your highest level, right? But here's some other things that are going to be very important if you want to thrive in this situation. You know, a lot of people say, I don't want to play politics. And so I often ask people just to reframe that and think of it as how do things get done in my organization? Because if you don't know how things get done in your organization, by who and when, you're at an extreme disadvantage. Would you agree with me? You have to know how things get done. And there's two ways they get done, right? It's the formal channels. And more importantly,

it's the informal channels, right? The unwritten rules. And oftentimes, as professionals of color, we don't have access to that information. Many of us are first generation college, what I call first generation corporate. So our parents may have been professionals, but they were doctors or they owned businesses or it may have been education or lawyers. But, you know, when I was coming in, there still weren't a ton of Black executives at high levels in corporate America. So you didn't really have a lot of role models of what could be done and how. And so I want to answer the question of how. That's what I want to do. I want to answer the question, how do I do it?

And that's what we do for people. We say, here it is. Take the guesswork out of it. And yes, you can have big ambitions for corporate. And yes, you should tell people that you have big ambitions. A lot of my clients and people in my community, I said, I'm going to coin this term. I call it secret ambitions. They're like, well, I want to lead this organization one day, or I want to be a VP or an SVP. I'm like, does anybody know that? Well, some people do. I'm like, we got to say goodbye to secret ambitions and start letting people know what we want and what

we're capable of. And that is not something that we've all been exposed to. I know I wasn't. And even growing up in that environment, right? Corporate is different, or I thought it was different. And so I didn't know. And I think I had lots of support and resources. And I was still like, what? Oh my God, is this a discrimination? I mean, I knew this happened. And I have a friend who's a very senior level in an organization. And she said, I just never thought it would happen to me. She's like, I never thought it would happen to me. And I'll give you one little nugget.

And here's what I mean when Black women in particular get out of their box. I had someone else tell me that there was a discrepancy in some compensation. And their boss said to them, this person at high level, their boss said to them, don't you think you make enough money? Now, would they say that to a white male? Would they say when you worked at the hedge fund, Jonathan, don't you think you make enough money? Would they say that to you? No. Like what? You think I'm making, you think I should be happy that I'm making all this money and that, that I should be good. You don't think that for other people. And so now they're using that as

a rationale for this lack of compensation. Is that crazy? Yeah. I think we know the answer to that. And it's hard. Yeah. I can't even imagine. You know, it's interesting as I hear you share sort of like more elements and more stories, you know, what occurs to me also is do you make a distinction between corporate and between the more social action and civil rights justice and community that you grew up around? And there are for sure some differences, but it sounds like you're coming along to the fact that also there's a lot more overlap. There are a lot more similarities. The whole idea of secret ambitions, well, any civil rights and social justice and a public advocacy, you don't hide those things.

You're front and center. It sounds like so many of the lessons that you learned as a kid from your mom and from your dad have come back and really informed your lens on. We need to reimagine the way that we step into this conversation in a corporate context because there are a lot of lessons that we have learned in different contexts that really do apply here. If we see, if we do that overlay, if we do that mapping and then actually, and stand in it. So what you're creating is not just, not just the how, I know you said, you know, like what you want to do is like share the how and not, not just for corporations, but for individuals who are being affected by this, right? Like that is a lot of your focus, but it's also letting people know

at the same time when you're not alone. And I'm sure this is not a new thing, but the notion of, and I have gathered a community of people who are having this conversation in a safe way and sharing the experience. So you can step into that community and be open and be honest and not worry about retribution or judgment or what's this going to do to my career. I mean, that is a power. It's not just about the how, which you're incredible at. It's also that you've brought together this community of people. And that alone serves a tremendous purpose. So when I look at what you've actually created over the years now with Corporate Alley Cat,

it's this, I look at it from, I'm sure you experience it differently, but from the outside looking in, to me, it's this really powerful social impact machine that focuses going back to what your dad said, like on one person at a time, but letting them know simultaneously they are not alone. And then showing them that they are not alone by providing community, which is an amazing thing to devote yourself to. Yeah. And one of the other things is you're right. It's more than a community, right? It's almost like I consider it a movement, right? But the other thing is, and this complaint to the civil rights analogy as well, is that one of the things that I believe that we're doing at the Corporate Alley Cat that I want us to be doing is shortening the learning curve. Everybody shouldn't have to make their own mistakes, right? So we learn any type of, whether it's civil rights or any type of movement, you know, you look at what's been done before, what's worked. You don't start from scratch. Our job is really simple. It's like we want to shorten the learning curve. It took me a gazillion years. I tell people all the time, I had a lot of help. It took me a gazillion years to figure all of this out. But you shouldn't have to. You should be

creating new situations that we have to figure out how to address. But I think, and that's a strong word, but I believe it's criminal that we send people out there and say, work hard and everything else will fall in place because that's not always true. Most times it's criminal that we send people out there and say, work hard and everything else will fall in place because that's not always true. Most times it's not true. And so we just want to shorten that learning curve. We want to help you accelerate your career. And we do, we want to create a movement of people who are using their voices in corporate America to advance their careers, to make more money, and to create cultures that everyone can thrive in. Everyone.

That is a powerful aspiration. So as we come full circle in this conversation, you know the final question that I always ask all of my guests in this container of Good Life Project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to live with purpose. I mean, I look at my dad and I just say, he lived a life with purpose. And so what that means is he left the world better than he found it. And purpose is different for everyone, but I don't think there's a downside to living with purpose. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode,

safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Ruth King about equality, advocacy, and mindfulness. You'll find a link to Ruth's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable,

and chances are you did since you're still listening here. Would you do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. between me and you, I'm going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black

aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.