Good Life Project - On The Power of Hope & Action | Father Greg Boyle & Fabian Debora

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

When you’re in your darkest hour, dealing with tough circumstances that don’t seem to have an end in sight, it can be easy to lose hope. And, have those around you give up on you, even abandon you. But, in today’s powerful conversation, you’ll discover how two people, from profoundly different walks of life, found each other and not only transformed their own lives, but also the lives of so many around them.Father Greg Boyle has become known to millions as the Jesuit priest who asked to be placed in a neighborhood in LA deeply affected by poverty, surrounded by gangs and unbearable violence, where he’d eventually found Homeboy Industries, which has since become the largest gang-intervention, rehabilitation, and reentry program in the world.Along the way, Fabian Debora found his way to Homeboy. A gang member, addicted, and formerly incarcerated, he lived a brutal life, at one point, becoming so despondent, he came close to taking his own life. All the while, Fabian had the soul, impulse, and wisdom of an artist that he kept trying to express. Fabian started creating stunning, large-scale paintings that reflected everything he’d experienced, and would eventually partner with Father Greg to become Executive Director of the Homebody Art Academy.They’ve partnered on a new book, Forgive Everyone, Everything. It is a powerful collection of Fr. Greg’s most poignant writings and Fabian’s stunning art, making this book a modern-day devotional that will provoke and inspire readers.You can find Father Greg at: Website | InstagramYou can find Fabian at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Mike Han about the power of artistic expression as a source of impact and connection.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED: We’re looking for special guest “wisdom-seekers” to share the moment you’re in, then pose questions to Jonathan and the Sparked Braintrust to be answered, “on air.” To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount CodesPlanta: Individual care schedule and reminders for your plants, recommendations, step-by-step guides, identification, light meter and more. Keep your plants alive with Planta! Download the Planta App today, use code goodlife20 and get 20% OFF. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Homies will always say they're used to being watched. They're not used to being seen. It's a hard thing to do, you know, because it's like mindfulness, you know, it's not hard to do. It's hard to remember to do it. And, you know, kindness is not hard to do. It's hard to remember to be that. So when you're in your darkest hour, dealing with tough circumstances that don't seem to have an end in sight, it can be easy to lose hope. And have those around you even lose hope as well, give up on you, maybe even abandon you. But in today's powerful conversation, you'll discover how two people from profoundly different walks of life found each other and not only transformed their own lives, but also the lives of so many around them. Father Greg Boyle has become known to millions as the Jesuit priest who asked to be placed in a neighborhood in LA, deeply affected by poverty, surrounded by gangs and unbearable violence, where he would eventually create a completely

different approach to helping the community around him, founding Homeboy Industries and growing it into a complex of companies that help provide a safe space, education, community, and a livelihood for former gang members, many of whom had also been in and out of prison their entire lives. And Homeboy has since become the largest gang intervention, rehabilitation, and re-entry program in the world, and employs and trains gang members and felons in a range of social enterprises, as well as providing critical services to thousands of men and women each year who walk through its doors seeking a better life. Father Boyle is also the author of the New York Times bestsellers, Tattoos on the Heart,

The Power of Boundless Compassion, and Barking at the Choir, The Power of boundless compassion, and barking at the choir, the power of radical kinship. Now, this is an unusual conversation. Father Greg Boyle is here with us, but he's not the only one. Along the way, Fabian DeBora found his way to Homeboy, a gang member, addicted, formerly incarcerated. He lived a brutal life. At one point, becoming so despondent, he came close to taking his own life. And he shares this moment in conversation, by the way. So if you have any sensitivity to the topic, please take care while listening. And all the while, Fabian also had this soul, this impulse, this wisdom of an artist that he kept trying to express, but found himself often stifled. At one point, he was even punished for expressing this impulse in

school until he found his way to Homeboy Industries and became part of the Homeboy Industries community where he finally felt seen and given the space to not only let art take center stage and renew his sense of purpose and identity, he started creating stunning, large-scale, small-scale paintings that reflected everything he'd experienced and would eventually come to partner with Father Greg to become the executive director of Homeboy Art Academy. And they have also now partnered on a new book, Forgive Everyone, Everything. It's a powerful collection of Father Greg's most poignant writings and Fabian's stunning

art, making this book a modern-day devotional that will provoke and inspire readers. In today's unusual three-person conversation, we have both Father Greg Boyle and Fabian DeBora on the line. And a quick heads up, as you'll hear in conversation, Fabian was joining in from his phone and at the same time navigating the art academy, sometimes even having to head outside just to get a signal for the conversation. So the audio quality will reflect this circumstance. Don't let that dissuade you from listening to Fabian's powerful contribution, personal stories, and deep insights on what truly matters in life, along with Father Greg Boyle's contribution. So excited to share this conversation with you.

I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running,

swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later require, charge time and actual results will vary. Excited to explore explore ideas stories i've been familiar with your work for quite a while now um sort of following along as many others have i'd love to dive into the new book and by the way the art in that is just fantastic really really beautiful in the stories and ideas let's take a little bit of a step back in time though for those in our community who may not be aware of you, your stories, sort of like what got you to this moment. From what I understand,

somewhere around 84, you become ordained. A couple years later, you find yourself the pastor of Dolores Mission Church in East LA. So this is around 86. Paint a picture of what that neighborhood is like when you arrive in the late 80s. Well, the parish is nestled in the middle of two public housing projects. They've been reconstructed since my time, but it was the largest grouping of public housing west of the Mississippi, and we had eight gangs at war with each other. Now, that started to heat up probably by 88. So my first two years were really dedicated to a lot of immigration issues

but then i buried my first young person killed because of the sadness in 1988 he was an identical twin and i remember his brother peering down into the coffin and looking at him there it was like they had slapped a mirror you know that he was peering into a mirror image. They were both dressed the same. So it was, that became my kind of image. But in two weeks ago, I buried my 256th person killed because of gang violence. Her name was Tiffany, not all of them from that community. But that's what the community became, I suppose. I mean, LAPD said because of the eight gangs in my parish, which was unheard of in housing projects to have that many, they called it the place of the highest concentration of gang activity in Los Angeles was my parish.

And so it was kind of unique in that way. So when you show up and in the middle of all this, I'm curious, did you show up with a certain intention to do something, to accomplish something, to be something? Or was it more a curiosity around what was going on and just spending a certain season observing? Well, I had come from Bolivia, pretty much, which changed my life. And I was supposed to go to Santa Clara University. And after Bolivia, I asked my provincial if he could send me to the poorest place and please don't send me to Santa Clara. Nothing against Santa Clara, but I really wanted to work with the poor. So it turns out that Dolores Mission, it was hard to kind of keep pastors. I mean, Jesuits were administering the parish, but it's a hard place to work.

And so people didn't last very long. So it turns out I went there and I was the youngest pastor in the history of the Diocese of Los Angeles, as I was told by the bishop when I was signing my whatever you sign, become pastor. Yeah, so I didn't have any expectations. Like I said, the first two years were really mainly, you know, immigration issues. The Simpson-Rodino law was very prevalent and families were being separated. And there were raids in those days, which, you know, they called them the INS in those days. So there were other issues. And then it just started to heat up and then crack, cocaine,

and so that kind of thing and then all of a sudden the whole complexion of the projects changed and it became a war zone so you know we started a school we started a jobs program then we started uh some uh businesses and stuff so yeah we have fabian and it's going to be loud because we've at the... I'm trying to find a little quiet spot over here, G. Hey, Fabian. How are you doing? Good, good. We're talking a little bit about some of the earlier years leading into Homeboy Industries

and some of the work. I'm curious, actually, Fabian, about your experience. We were just hearing about the experience of showing up in a church in the late 80s and how things changed in some pretty radical ways in the years right around that. What were you up to around that time also? What was your experience? Well, I was fortunate enough to be near and around the times when Father Greg Boyle first came to do his missionary work at the Lord's Mission. And it was back in like 1986, 88, around that era. I was a young man at the time, you know, still going to the Lord's Mission Catholic School.

And, you know, of course, dealing with all the trauma that came in my household, the dysfunction of being a first generation Mexican-American born to immigrant parents and father as a heroin addict. So at that time, you know, during those times, you know, I've never thought, you know, I'm going to be the toughest gang member in the block. Yeah, that's the career path I'm going to take. It's just something that exists in our environments. I call the vacuum and that is distant within our environments. And I knew that since way then that I had a gift and that gift was art. And ever since I was a little one, I would do those sketch and create my own worlds to escape my reality and so on. So art always held me, but it was very difficult

to grasp in those housing projects where eight local gangs plagued that area, let alone, you know, what was going on in the household. So luckily at one time being at the Lord's Mission, then I got to meet Father Greg when I was at the age of 10, who reminded me of my gift, my talent. But it was very difficult for me even then to grasp it, you know, because of the disbelief and the absence of hope and not foreseeing a future of some sort. It took me a while before I can actually return to self, although gangs were the refuge at the time for me. That's the choice I've made at the age of 12. And of course, what comes with gangs in and out of incarceration, you know, trauma, you know, dysfunctional families and everything that gangs partake in, you know, but luckily I found my way back home. Yeah. Father Gray, do you actually recall the first time you met Fabian? Well, I remember, as he mentioned, he was a

student at Dolores Mission. And so, you know, I was a young pastor, so I knew, you know, everybody in the school. And of course, Fabian would tell the story more completely than I could, but it was, you know, I don't know how many weeks it was before you got the boot from your own graduation. And so that was where Fabian, you know, came to my attention in kind of a startling way. Maybe you could tell them that. Yeah, well, there was a time when, you know, in eighth grade, and as I mentioned, I used to love to draw.

And I used to use art as a form of escape. And for, you know, art for me was like my safe haven in a sense. And I would bring that gift of art with me to the Lord's mission. And most of the times, you know, academics were not of interest, English, math, and all that. I would just draw, draw, draw, draw. And when one of these events in eighth grade, just about to give my mom a glimpse of the dream, right? He's going to graduate the Lord's mission and end up in Salesian and hopefully Bosco Tech one day. And at that time I was in eighth grade,

there was a teacher and he came around and he belittled me and embarrassed me. He reminded me of my father and those same things my father was instilling in me when I was a child. And he said, don't draw in class. So I said, first of all, you're setting up the stage, bro. You're embarrassing me. And so what am I to do? So I continued to draw in class. And so I did draw in class.

Sure enough, the teacher comes around the desk as if I, you know, got him so frustrated that he grabbed my artwork, put it in my face, and he said, what did I tell you? Don't draw in class. And when he ripped that work apart, it's almost as if he ripped my heart in half, and it only opened up all those wounds that I was escaping from by utilizing this gift. Everything my father instilled in me, everything I encountered came back to the surface when he read my artwork. So being that I was an angry kid, I got a desk and I threw it at his ass. And again, at that time, he had high blood pressure.

So he used to eat Lifesavers to control his sugar levels throughout the day. So then I'm being the little smart ass that I become. I say, why don't you eat your lifesavers now, punk? They might save your life. Now, of course, the principal didn't like that. So they grabbed me by the neck and by my T-shirt, walked me over, expelled me, and walked me over to the rectory where Father Greg reside at the time. And it was unlike anyone else when I got to Father Greg as if the teacher was expecting for punishment to happen.

You see, but that is not what took place. Father Greg took the time to see me for who I was and for what I brought, my assets, my gifts. And he said to me, oh, mijo, what happened? And I said, well, this fool ripped my artwork, G, and no one's going to take that from me but me. And then Greg says, oh, mijo, I ain't got that type of power. You're going to go to public school, which I call the lions then. And then he goes, but before you leave, son, I want you to do something for me. I go, what's that, Father Greg? I want you to go home and draw me something.

And I was like, what? For the very first time, I'm not being punished and penalized for what I love to do. He actually saw my gift of art and he returned that right back to me. That in itself made a big impact in my life, which marked my corazón because who is not to say that is one of the many of the reasons why I continue to create to this day. Yeah, so powerful. You know, in that moment, I'm always so curious, moments like that, where, you know, you could go one way or another way, you can say one thing, you can say another thing. And so often, you know, we approach those moments as, well, this is the moment where you've got to,

quote, learn your lesson, you know, and there's some form of retribution, which is built into it. So, Father Greg, when you step into this moment, it sounds like not only were you coming into it from a sense of love and acceptance, but also saying, can we actually focus on your gift for a moment and find a pathway for you to actually deepen into that? got the boot from Dolores Mission, didn't even graduate. So there was some kind of retribution, I suppose. But that's when I remember him the most, when that incident happened. And then it was, you know before Fabian became a cherished member of our team yeah Mayday Mayday we've been compromised

the pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun January 24th tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg you know what the difference between me and you is you're gonna die don't shoot him we need him y'all need a pilot flight risk Tell me how to fly this thing. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. During this time, it's almost like there are two tracks running simultaneously. Father Greg, you in the late 80s start out what begins as a job program, which eventually turns into Homeboy Industries, which eventually then turns into this bigger set of opportunities in no small part to provide a place for gang members, formerly incarcerated folks to come

and actually be accepted and also find skills and start to say like, there is a way for you to step back into the world that's different. So Fabian, in the background, while this is happening, it sounds like you end up in and out of the system. So there are like these two different tracks going on, like trying to figure out like what's going on with your life. I'm so curious now about the moment that Fabian, you decide that something's got to change and how that all came to be. Was it initiated, Father Greg, by you? Was it initiated by Fabian, by you? Or was there a moment, or was it just a gradual thing? I think there was many things, and I do believe that it wasn't just that one time when Father Greg, when I came to Father Greg, the time I got kicked out of the First Mission.

It was amongst many things. That wasn't just the one thing he did for me. He also brought me to a mural company known as the East Low Streetscapers, which was a Chicano mural movement, great artists, Chicano artists. And so and many other things. But also, I would say that, you know, because of those those those gestures that Father Greg did, along with my mother, who never gave up on me. She was always there for me since day one, along with my wife, now Elizabeth. So there was many people in my life that kept reminding me of my goodness and my art and my skill and everything. But it took a near-death experience before I can really turn my life around. I realized that the only way that I can protect my children is to change my life.

But my own thoughts and mind were telling me that the only way that I can protect my children is to change my life. But my own thoughts and mind were telling me that the only way that I can protect my children was to kill myself. But it wasn't until I ran across the freeway induced on methamphetamine with hopes that a truck can take me out of my misery when I discovered that there is something greater than me. In that moment, I had the spiritual awakening to know and understand that the only reason why I'm here is through the grace of God. And my purpose was revealed, that it is because of my children that I must live.

And so in that note, then I was able to recollect all those gestures that Father Greg, all those words that he said to me amongst many people in my life, they start to make sense. And I got help. I went to rehab, did six months in Salvation Army, and I came back to seek Father Greg and to hold him to his word. As he said, the minute you deal with your drug problem, I will give you a stepping stone to get your life back on track. And I held on to that.

And I came back to Homeboy in 2007, proud and ready and eager to show him that I've completed rehabilitation center. And that is that day of 2000, February 2007, when my whole life began to flourish. Yeah. So when, Fabian, when you go back to Homeboy in 2007, at this point, this is Homeboy Industries. This is Homegirl Cafe. This is Silk Screen, and it's a bigger thing and a bigger community. Do I have that timing about right, Father Greg? We're in our fourth location now. So that was 2007. Prior to that, Fabian came when we were in our earlier headquarters. But certainly, since then, we've expanded incredibly and we see more people

walking through our doors than ever before. Yeah. I heard in recent conversation that there's something like 500 or so folks who work in all the various different parts of the organization at this point. And Father Grav, I've heard you describe that as everybody works with an enemy or a perceived enemy or a prior enemy. That's all by design. And a big part of what you talk about and what this new collaborative book that you and Fabian have worked on is this notion of kinship. Talk to me about what you mean by that and how it's centered in both the, you know, like homeboy industries and all the different variations in the work that you're doing. Well, you know, Jesus says that you may be one. And so the idea is to try to bridge

any distance that separates us and try to understand that everybody is unshakably good and we all belong to each other. So that's where you start. But the goal is to be, you know, connective tissue, to be joined to each other. It's interesting, you know, I heard yesterday somebody was talking about homelessness and she works with homeless people in Virginia and she said people don't become homeless because they run out of money. They become homeless because they run out of relationships. And I think that's kind of what Homeboy is about. It's like, how do we ensure that people don't run out of relationships? And it's really the same thing. It's the relationship that heals. So

then it's everybody connecting. It's a safe place where people feel seen and then people feel cherished. So, I mean, that happens at our headquarters, that happens at the Art Academy. And the hope is that it happens in every one of our social enterprises. We have 10 of them. Now, Fabian, when you in 2007 sort of like step back into this in a more serious way, is that the feeling that you get? Is that the feeling that you had been yearning for also? I'm curious. Absolutely.

I think as human beings, we all yearn for that feeling of being heard, being seen, being in community. And I think because of some of the geographical areas where we were raised and we come from, sometimes that is often, you know, far from reach, you know, according to whatever is at stake, meaning life circumstances. But yes, when I came to Homeboy Industries, I knew where I needed to go in order to get my stepping stone and began to reshape my life. And that is the feeling that I too, to this day, try to convey and give to the people that I come in contact with. For it is only through love that we will pierce the hearts of those who come through our doors with hopes that they can start to love themselves in the way that can help them begin to foresee that future that we so yearn for.

Yeah. I'm curious, when you share this now, it seems like you've spent, you spent a lot of years feeling it, living it, thinking about it, right? In the early days, was it just so plainly obvious to you? Did you, it was just like an immediate feeling. It's like, this is it. I want this. Or is this something that's sort of like come to you over time? Because, you know, part of it, I'm imagining you're stepping back into a space where like there are some people who you probably feel an immediate sense of just organic kinship to, freeway incident that there's nothing else he can see me through. But it's a two-way street. It's not just me coming to receive, but it's also me contributing to be open and willing to be able to receive that feeling. I didn't come with my guard up. I did come with one mission and one vision and that no one was going to remove me

from that. And what that meant is I did have challenges. People were disrespecting my so-called neighborhood. People were calling me out on my name at times, but I wasn't going to submit to that because I came with one vision, one mission. I'm here to change and really do what's right by me. And eventually that in itself began to send a message to the community and those who were still trying to find their truth. And eventually, because of the way I was receiving and the way I was conducting myself, not conducting, but the way I was, my true self, at the end of the day, prevails. And that is just by seeing people for who they are, receiving them as they are, meeting them where they are, and without judgment.

And eventually, as Father Greg always says, you know, you can no longer demonize those that get to know. And that's what starts to take place at Homeboy Industry, through relationship, through conversation, dialogue, crying, smiling, laughing with folks, and empathy, you know, really being in the center with the folks that walk through our doors and helping them carry what they have endured for many years. That in itself is a signifier of love and support.

Father Greg, I'm sort of watching your face as Fabian's talking. I'm curious what's going through your mind as you hear him share all of this. Well, Fabian's a wisdom figure, always has been. And he's as articulate in his words as he is with a paintbrush. And so, but he's the real deal. And that's why like the art academy is so successful because people feel seen by him, you know,

and homies will always say they're used to being watched. They're not used to being seen. It's a hard thing to do, you know, and homies will always say they're used to being watched. They're not used to being seen. It's a hard thing to do, you know, because it's like mindfulness, you know, it's not hard to do. It's hard to remember to do it. And, you know, kindness is not hard to do. It's hard to remember to be that. So it's a kind of a constant thing. And plus Fabian is anchored in his own recovery. And so it's, it's kind of not one day at a time. It's one breath at a time. It's, it's a really kind of a constant, it's part of his practice. It's what he works at and it shows. Yeah. When you think of art Fabian now, I'm curious, you know, the way you describe it, it's been a part of you, like for as young as you can remember,

it was stifled and repressed in a lot of ways when you were a kid. And now it's, it's not only centered in your being, but it's centered in, in your doing, you know, and in your teaching and in your sharing and your elevating. I almost wonder, is art for you not just a form of expression, but also a form of love? Art is a form of love. Art is a form of prayer. And I do believe that art lends itself. And it's symbolic to how our young men and women, even young adults, adults, or anyone who walks through here through the academy can always redefine the image of who they're made to be. And so art lends itself for many levels, many things.

And you'd be surprised how many connections take place within themselves when creating art. But art is also a responsibility. And art is a powerful tool that can either elevate people or it can also cause harm if not utilized wisely. And so for me, I utilize art as a tool to be able to remove all stereotypes that exist within the image of the gang member by utilizing identity, culture, religion, and gender. Those are the four elements that I use and has become as a responsibility. And that's why when you see my images, my subject matters, those are mere images of my community and folks that not only do I work with, but that have also made an impact in my life.

So I paint for those, the voiceless. I paint for folks to see themselves in these images with the feeling of hope, love, and everything that we all yearn for. And that is like my mission as an artist. And so far, so good. And I've been successful at it. And you'd be surprised how much feedback

and how much people love my work of art. And if I can get that same feeling from my audience and my private collectors and folks who follow me in the art, then I'm pretty sure that if I apply the same practice, same approach within the academy, that my participants and those folks who I come in contact with will feel the same. Yeah. So you have both now, you've collaborated on this book, Forgive Everyone Everything, which is, it's a combination of ideas, a combination of stories, it's a combination of art. You know, Fabian, you've done the illustration and collaborated with all the other content that is in there.

I want to talk about some of the ideas and some of the stories that are in that book, but I'm also just really curious how this collaboration comes together between both of you. If either one of you wants to jump in. Want me to take it, G? Yeah, take it away. Well, I mean, I think I've been, you know, honestly, like G has been not only a friend, but a mentor throughout the years of my life. I watch, I observe. He has given me a lot of life lessons, lessons, you know. And so that also influences my work. And I think, you know, he pulls in the direction of, you know, being there

for folks through intervention, through Homeboy or what have you. But there's some more commonalities, believe it or not, within me and Father Gray with his writing skills and then my art. But I think the artwork is a body of work that also embodies and captures the voices of those of our communities, in this case, homeboy industries. And so when this idea came about, it was a simple email that was reached out by Loyola Press and they shot me the idea and I said, okay, sure. And then Father Greg already had been cultivating this. And when I got the book, I was like, man, this is great. This is powerful. It's almost as if Father Greg's writings have shone light to my art and vice versa.

My art also has also shone light on Father Greg's writings. And it was the perfect match, honestly. You know, not blowing my tooth or anything, but not tooting my, how do you say it, G? Tooting my own horn. Not trying to blow my own horn, but it was a great match in heaven. I don't know. I kind of like blowing my tooth better, actually. The birth of a new dicho.

Fabio, I'm going to start using that I'm just telling you I give you credit but you get the idea I hope I came across as best possible but yeah

I personally feel that this was a hit to me personally and I'm grateful that we were able to encapsulate this moment in time yeah

that's beautiful I'm curious about the name also Father Greg, Forgive Everyone Everything. Well, again, part of it was Loyola Press said, we have this thing called Morning Meeting, and at it, we have a thing called Thought for the Day. And so I don't know what, I think they just watched them. You can see them somewhere on YouTube or something. And so one of the thoughts for the day was just because I pulled up behind a car that had a bumper sticker that said, forgive everyone, everything.

It was my turn to do thought for the day. So I ran with it. And I would always tell stories and stuff. And so they all came from, almost all, I think, came from my three books. So then they pulled them out and we kind of organized them and maybe we had a little scripture passage. But I really think it's a showcase for Fabian's art. So they call it a devotional. So the idea would be you would open it, you would read, kind of reflect every day on that one page that included a very profound work of art, and then maybe a story and then some images and a scripture passage. So Amazon organizes it the way it does. It's a number one Catholic devotional, but it's also number one street art and graffiti. So it's both categories, which is nice. I don't know how they categorize anything,

but it's kind of like that. So you can come to the book for the art, or you can come to it for the devotional part. Yeah, and I agree. I think they do work, as you both described, they just work so powerfully together. It's like one plants the seed of an idea, and then the art gives it emotion and energy, and it gives it a liveliness that's really powerful. And I love the notion of sort of like a daily devotional when you're doing that. But it's also because it's a lot of Fabian's art. And it's not just like from the last three years. It's not in any chronological order,

but you can also see how Fabian has grown in his art. It's a body of work of art that goes all the way back from 2008 up into present time. And like Father Greg said, you can see the evolution not only in technique, but also in the imagery and the subject matter, how they start to speak and become more amplified throughout the years. Yeah. I'm curious, Fabian, what's it like for, because as you're describing this, what's also occurring to me is it's effectively like a 14-year retrospective of your work, Fabian. That's right.

And I'm curious, like, what's that like for you to just sort of like see it laid out like that? No, I mean, to me, it's everything we you know, I know that by the end of my journey here on this earth or this world, I too want to make sure I leave some documentation of who I become as a person and who I am now as a father. And all these accomplishments alongside with Father Greg and others that I've accomplished would only reside and live in the palms of my children's hands. And I think for me, that's how personal this is, you know? And also knowing that my master painters from previous times,

they always say, paint what you see, paint what you feel, and the rest shall fall in place. And I've been following that suggestion from one of my master painter mentors, and it is prevailing, you know? It is prevailing, and it makes me feel real good knowing that uh my artwork is is landing where it needs to land you know yeah i mean it's also interesting to me right because as as you described you know you paint what you see and you do that in real time so not only is it like a retrospective of your work and how you've changed

as a human being as an artist but also because you're painting the community around you, it's almost like this historical record of how the community has changed and evolved and shifted. I mean, from the outside looking in, it feels like that. Do you feel that from sort of the inside out as well? Absolutely. I think the best research comes from living and walking with the homeboys and homegirls that I live with at the academy. I think generations shift, perceptions change, experiences also change and evolve. And so in order to stay true to the voice, then I must walk alongside the voice. And they're the ones who keep me grounded and real to what the images will look like on a yearly basis.

And so, yes, that's where a lot of my inspiration comes from. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15

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a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. there are a lot of beautiful thoughts and and really moving stories in the book. One of them is a story about a piano concert in Pelican Bay. Father Gray, could you share that story? It was a concert pianist who, I wasn't there, but it was a longer story than in this book. But he came and he performed and the chaplain was telling me about it. I had just spoken in the gym. And then as we were walking out, there was a guy there who was kind of a photobomber. And so I was laughing about he got in every picture and he was a lifer. And then the chaplain told me that story that concertist came, they had a, only 60 guys showed up for it, and they were allowed to have 200, and so the chaplain was disappointed. And then he, the guy started to

play the piano, I think he had a couple other strings or something, and he said, the chaplain said he had never seen something like this, where everybody was still and silent. And then he looked at the faces of all the inmates and even the guards, and everyone is sobbing. And he said it was just so powerful. And then the guy finished playing, and he had said at the beginning, I'll have Q&A at the end if you want to ask me any questions. And there were no questions except for this crazy kind of photobomber who got up and he can barely speak because he's crying. And then the only question he can get out is, why? And the concert pianist knew exactly what the question was. And he starts to sob and he says, because you're worthy and you deserve

beauty. And there's no difference between me and you. And I just thought it was the most powerful thing, you know, that, first of all, it's like art and Fabian's gift. It has a way of pulling people in and reminding them of the truth of who they are, that they're exactly right. And they're exactly what God had in mind when God made them. And so that's a powerful thing, you know. And it's funny that this guy who generated the story that was told to me was because they got a camera and everybody wanted a picture with me. So it was two or three or five or a whole group. And he was in every single picture. And what I loved was nobody elbowed him out. Nobody told him no. It was so holy that he was completely welcomed and he was absolutely blasted. He was covered in tattoos, which is always a sign that real mental health issues, frankly, it's like having a keep away sign on your face. And yet he was so welcomed

and never shunned. And he was the one who kind of formulated the question, why would you come here and bring something so beautiful to us who are so undeserving. And so I thought it was a good story. Yeah. I mean, I found it such a powerful story, especially against the backdrop of this book and of Fabian's work, because I was just imagining that to a certain extent, art is art, right? Whether it's music, whether it's illustration, whether it's painting. And it struck me that Fabian, you know, like, I wonder if you've had moments similar to that person playing the piano for a group of people who didn't feel worthy and something unlocked in them by being exposed to this piece of art. Absolutely. I think, you know, I'm intentional about what I create, you know, it comes with an

intention. And you'd be surprised when I choose folks of my community, homeboys and homegirls, when I ask them, hey, let me do a portrait of you. Help me tell that story. And when I create the portrait with their face on it, I mean, their face, their image, and I tell that story immediately, you can see right there and then that they're feeling that love. Like, wow, he chose me. Why me? Oh, wow.

And I did the portrait of Mario and I did the portrait of Joanna to tell that story. And that in itself, Joanna was shocked. I remember saying, hey, Joanna, I'm going to use you for a portrait. What are you going to do? Don't trip. I'm going to handle it. Don't trip. I'm going to handle it. Don't trip. Yeah.

I see the smile that just came upon your face when you're sort of reflecting on that. Because it's not just their likeness that you're creating. It's what you're seeing in them that you decide to center in the way that you paint them that maybe they haven't seen in themselves. Maybe they don't even know it's there. Maybe they knew it was there, but they've buried it for life because maybe it wasn't safe to even bring that part of themselves out. And you're saying, I actually see this in you.

It's real. And there's beauty and worth in that. One of the devotions, one of the passages in this book also includes this really simple line that landed powerfully with me, which is, one doesn't become noble. We locate our nobility. Father Greg, tell me more about this thought. Well, part of that, I think, comes from the idea that we think we go to the margins to make a difference. But you really go to the margins so that the folks at the margins make me different. So, you know, transformation happens at Homeboy,

but I don't transform anybody and neither does Fabian. But transformation happens at the Art Academy and it happens at our headquarters. And so, you know, people kind of inhabit their nobility and their sense of the truth of who they are. But you don't ennoble them. You don't kind of, you know, like you would with a sword and make somebody a knight. You don't make them noble. But it's exquisitely mutual that somehow, together, we find a way to inhabit our own common shared nobility and dignity. And that's the idea and that's the hope, you know.

And that's why you don't get depleted in doing this kind of work because you're always being eternally replenished by, you know, stepping into the light with other people. And then all of a sudden you're all feeling worthy and noble and with dignity. Oh, nobly born, remember who you really are, which is kind of a Buddhist kind of refrain. Yeah, I mean, that resonates really deeply with me. Kind of a Buddhist but of liberation. So like I'm not becoming, I'm not changing from who I am into something else, but I'm peeling away that which has always obscured who I've always been, you know, like that essence, that truth, that heart. And that sounds more like what you're describing when you use the word nobility.

Yeah. And which is a very good point because it's already there and can you recognize it? So I always recoil when a homie says I'm trying to be a better person. And which is a very good point because it's already there. And can you recognize it? So I always recoil when a homie says I'm trying to be a better person. And I always say, well, you could not be even one bit better than you are. So it's not climbing a mountain, you know, and somehow ascending to this higher place where I'm better tomorrow than I was yesterday. It's about kind of discovering your unshakable goodness that's always been there. And I like that.

The liberation is kind of, you know, it's like Buddha nature, unshakable goodness. You want to be able to see it. It's there. It's always been there. You know, maybe you jettison some things that have kept you from seeing that truth. But it's never not been there. Yeah. I mean, that land just is really true and powerful to me. You know, one of the other things that you write and offer in art is this notion of a construction of success. You write, salivating for success keeps you from being faithful, keeps you from truly seeing whoever's

sitting in front of you. And it's this distinction between sort of like this, quote, modern Western definition of success, which often is about accumulation and checkboxes, and faith and presence. And it's sort of like changing the metrics by which you measure the way that you live a good life. At least that's the way it landed with me. I'm curious, like Fabian, do you have a take on this also? So like that balancing between like this modern aspirational achievement driven definition of success and faith along the path. Nah, I gave that up a long time ago.

Yeah. And it's not about that. I think for me personally, you know, as I mentioned, you know, like for me, it's about walking alongside those folks, right? Because it's about giving back and bringing folks along with me. That's what makes me unique from many other artists. I'm not driven by gallery or institutions or trying to put my artwork in museums. Now, that's great if it takes place, but that has never been my driver. I think

for me, it's about first fulfilling what it is that I need as an artist through my paintings with the hopes that I can inspire the next young man and woman to do the same. Because for me, it's always about healing first and foremost. And in order to be able to receive whatever is in store, if you want to call it success or whatever is to come, then I need to be grounded in my healing because that in itself can derail me. Knowing that I'm an addict, knowing that I made mistakes in life due to having more than I need, in a sense, then I think it's important that I first and foremost heal in the arts, walk alongside my folks, and then God will give what it is

and put in place whatever He feels fit for me. That's the way I feel. You're smiling, Fr. Greg. Yeah, I mean, it's hard because especially with nonprofits, people are always wanting evidence-based outcomes. And I'm not that interested, you know. And so we're not called to be successful, we're called to be faithful. And that's why you don't burn out. People burn out mainly because they need to see success and it has to happen now rather than inhabiting the truth of your own fidelity. You know, I'm going to be,

I'm going to love being loving. I don't care how things turn out. I can't care how things turn out. I really can't. All I can do is love being loving. And that has to be enough for me. How things turn out, that's what keeps you from joy. In the end, Homeboy is really about a flourishing joy. And why are we unhappy? People are unhappy because they're self-absorbed. And part of that self-involvement and absorption is how do I achieve and accomplish and succeed? And we're scratching our heads because we're unhappy. And that's precisely why we're unhappy. And so because we care how things turn out.

But if we just cared about loving being loving, which as Fabian says, in a sense, that's our true selves, then we're less concerned about outcomes. If you want to be successful, you're only going to work with people who will give you good outcomes. So I'm not interested in that. That's why at Homeboy, we are reverse cherry pickers. We work with the incorrigible and the hardheaded and the knuckleheaded and the belligerent. And that's the way we like it. But we're human beings. Sometimes we go, oh, wow, wouldn't it be great to have a place filled with everybody who was Fabian, you know?

But no, you got to get folks who are, now, they have to walk through the door. So they have to be at least halfway there, you know? Yeah, it's got to be like a mutual meeting. Fabian, as we're having this conversation, you've been kind of gratefully bouncing around and finding places where we can get a decent signal in the art academy. But you're sitting in this place, which it sounds like you have been instrumental in making real and in inviting people into and inviting people to see themselves in the world differently.

When you think about what it's become, I'm curious whether you have a vision for what you would love to see it turn into, or do you just kind of show up every day and say, let's do the work and it'll go where it needs to go and do what it needs to do? No, I think a vision is always good to have. I mean, I think, you know, when we think about our communities and what we've endured throughout the decades, especially through the decade of violence and crack cocaine epidemic, I grew up in the housing projects. I think, yeah, it's only right to say that if the mission should always have to be able to elevate and provide something more deserving of for the population that we serve, you know what I mean, in a humble way. But I do believe that every day I do foresee meeting the needs of the community by creating a community school within community.

And it's similar to what Father Greg has been doing. You know, it's the same concept, just through the arts. And everything that he's put in place, it all started with a prayer. Organic things start to take shape. And by the time you know it, here we are, 32 years later, with all these various enterprises. And it just keeps growing organically the way the community calls for, in a sense. And so then, for me, the same concept. I think I would just love to continue to show up, keep building out the various arts disciplines, have a menu of options

that these young men and women, as well as adults, can tap into, and hopefully one day point to the path of creative economy, you know, so that they too can participate in those institutions such as Disney or Converse or Nike. You know, I think there's positions for them there as well, but it just takes someone like myself and folks who have already tapped into that arena to point the way. And, you know, and that's the idea. But even if they don't, that's okay because I've learned that nothing is a waste of time. And in the time that they are here, they've discovered, if not one, many things about themselves. Now, if they become the next Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, or Caravaggio, man, that's just a cherry on top.

But that's not what drives us, you know? And I think for me, it's about creating a space where they can be themselves without judgment, explore, discover, and hopefully make the connections needed to return to the self. And art gets at that. And that's what drives me most than anything. Yeah, so powerful. whether you're doing it through the vehicle of all the other things that the various different businesses within homeboy actually do and offer the center of everything is kindness, right? The center of everything is love. The center of everything is kinship. It's a seeing, a seeing of myself as clearly as possible. And then,

and then a dissolving of the walls that don't exist between us, but we fabricate and, and let's just actually like take them down and acknowledge the fact that we're all kind of one and we're all in this together. I want to bring the conversation full circle as we head into the hour here. I'm going to ask you each to answer like one final question, which I ask everybody. In this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Fabian, maybe we could start with you. To live a good life to me means to be able to see the day as an older, wiser man and watch all my children reach their destinations and reach their goals and accomplishments.

Beautiful. And Father Greg? Well, I think kindness is the only non-delusional response to everything, which is to say every other response is delusional. And it's hard to kind of stay anchored in that and be intentional in reminding yourself. But I think that's what a good life is all about is cherishing with every breath you take and be kind, be kind, be kind. Thank you both. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Mike Hahn about the power of artistic expression as a source of reinvention and impact and connection. You'll find a link to Mike's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation

interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you wanna help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together

with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. We'll be right back. Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.