Good Life Project - One Woman’s Journey to Help Thousands Find Freedom

Episode Date: March 31, 2015

"Nothing about them without them."Sometimes you hear stories about the horrors of what people go through in other parts of the world and it just seems hopeless.Who are you to help change traditions and practices that have existed for centuries?And why would people listen to you as an outsider?These questions and challenges have not deterred today's guest from making an incredibly important impact in places like Africa and India.Jane Mosbacher Morris spent years working in the US Department of State, the McCain Institute, and with organizations around the world learning about the actual issues that surround practices like early childhood marriage and violence against women. And then she made an important discovery.No matter how much you give aid to a woman who is a survivor of these kinds of trauma, you can't give her freedom without helping her become economically independent.Jane founded a company to do just that last year, To The Market, and in our moving conversation, she explains how it helps women survivors gain income and freedom.We talk about her experiences meeting women and girls in the red light districts of India, her work with the UN, and her vision for what this company can become.This is a powerful and raw conversation that will inspire and educate you about what you can do to share what you have where it matters most.Some questions I ask:What is a woman's life actually like in the parts of the world you are working in?How do you bridge the gap between the rules on the books and the deep-rooted beliefs of the culture?How do you tell the stories of these survivors while still honoring their humanity?What's your greatest hope for the survivors?Links we mention:UN WomenTo the MarketMcCain InstituteTomsFollow Jane:Website | Twitter | FacebookCheck out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean, to me, that was heartbreaking because it just felt like their life was being taken from them. Their opportunity was being taken from them for no reason. And I just couldn't accept that. Some people see horrible things and spend the rest of their lives trying to unsee them. Other people see those same things and spend the rest of their lives doing everything they can devoted to helping. That's pretty much the case with this week's guest, Jane Mosbacher-Mars. So Jane's the founder and CEO of a pretty cool venture called To The Market. It's a social enterprise that focuses on promoting and selling goods made by survivors of conflict and abuse.

Before that, she was at the McCain Institute focusing on anti-human trafficking. And before that, at the U.S. Department of State, the Bureau of Counterterrorism, focusing on global women's issues. She is somebody who is called to serve and has devoted her life to these powerful issues. And the conversation today gets very real, gets very raw. It talks about things that happen in the world that very often in sort of a Western world we're not exposed to. But I think it's an important conversation. And it's important to really expand our global horizon and start to think about what's going on in the world around us, and maybe how we can help. So I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.

So thank you so much for hanging out with me today, by the way. I know you've been bopping all around. We're hanging out in New York City right now. I want to go back into your journey a little bit, but I think it's kind of cool why you're in New York. So why don't we just kind of dive into this and tell me what's going on right now, why you're in New York City, and then we'll take a step back and kind of trace how you got here. I'm in New York right now because yesterday, March 10th, we ended up launching a partnership with UN Women, where they are focusing on ethical fashion and sustainable sourcing. And so To The market was one of their brand partners. So I had the pleasure of participating in an event yesterday where they were focusing on

the 20-year anniversary of a very famous speech that was given in Beijing talking about the status of women. And so we were sort of all looking at what progress has been made and what progress do we want to see in the next 20 years. So it was really special. Let's go into that a little bit. Tell me a little bit more about the conversations around that, what were sort of like the big themes about where we've come from and where, I say we as if I'm one of the women, but where sort of the conversation was around where women had come since that speech in the last 20 years. And I'm curious about the conversation about like the forward-looking conversation too.

Well, it is we because it's humanity. Where is humanity right now? And there has been a lot of progress made with regards to laws on the books, especially around women's political participation and gender-based violence. And so we've seen a number of countries that previously essentially allowed for things like domestic violence to be sanctioned within the household to be at least on the books illegal, and at least for women to have the right to participate in politics. The not great part is the progress that's made on the actual numbers, meaning that there is still a tremendous problem with gender-based violence. And the rate of growth of women's political participation, while we have these wonderful

outliers like the president of Liberia, the rate of growth overall, I think, is something like 11%, which could be a lot better. So there was a lot of discussion about participation in all parts of community, at the political level, in the workforce, and then, of course, talking about the safety and sort of view of women within a community, whether they are fully valued as equal partners. Yeah. And it seemed because your, your language was very precise around like the progress was around that there are laws, there are on the books protections. But my sense is also that the reality on the ground is that, okay, so step one is that there, we've got it codified in some way.

But then what I'm getting from you, there's a huge leap between, okay, it's now on the books, but this is the day-to-day reality for women in these places in the world. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, implementation is 90% of anything, in my opinion. And so, of course, the letter of the law is important because you want to have something to enforce if there's the will to enforce. But oftentimes, there's not the will to enforce and you're battling against, I mean, generations of would be an understatement, you know, thousands of years of viewpoint on what's acceptable and what's not acceptable with regards to how a girl or a woman is treated in many of these communities.

And so, especially when you get into more rural or local areas that are less connected with maybe the national government, it can be very hard to see progress. Yeah. So can we, at the risk of getting graphic, I think it's probably important to actually, you know, because we can talk about, you know, in general ideas, but my sense is that most of the people who are listening to this podcast really have no idea what we're talking about. They really have no exposure. Maybe they've read a little bit, but are you comfortable sort of going into, okay, this is what, you know, in one of the areas of the world that we're talking about, what might a girl's life or a woman's life actually be like on a day-to-day basis? What are some of the things that you're actually talking

about, like really them being exposed to or experiencing that we're talking about here. Yeah, absolutely. So there are a number of examples I'd love to share. I want to preface it by saying that in each of these communities, rarely are people doing things that they think is wrong. It really is culturally what they were taught to be okay. And so they don't think that they're hurting their daughter or their wife. They think that this is acceptable. And so I want to preface it by saying that I'm not trying to condemn these communities,

but just sort of share what the reality is like for many girls and women in these communities. So there are a number of customs that I would argue negatively impact the trajectory of a community at large. So not just the girl or the woman, but the community and ultimately, I believe, the nation. Things like early childhood marriage, where you are essentially in a situation where a young girl could be forcibly married off to a much older relative. And when I say much older, it could be anywhere from somebody in their 30s

to somebody in their 60s or 70s. And when I say girl, you know, somebody in their 30s to somebody in their 60s or 70s. And when I say girl, I mean, I'm talking folks as young as 9 or 10. Oh, my God. And clearly, the girl doesn't have the option to refuse that marriage in most scenarios. And of course, you know, they can be older. They could be 16 or 17. But it's the fact that they are being forced into a dynamic that they don't want that I think is very troubling. And then, unfortunately, when things like early

childhood marriage take place, oftentimes the girl's prevented from continuing her education. She's often forced to live with the family of her husband and there's a dynamic of control that is, um, you know, she has very little control and her husband's family tends to sort of take control of her. Um, so that would be an example of something that is fairly common in, in many countries. Um, another would be, uh, female genital mutilation, which some people have described as female circumcision. And that is another very dangerous practice that leads to horrible and heartbreaking health issues, especially around childbirth. And it's a deeply rooted custom

in many, many religious communities. So it's not unique to a specific religion. Very much so is cultural. And again, it can, the health impact can keep a girl out of school. It can prevent her from having healthy babies. It can shorten her life significantly if it leads to infection, which it often does because of the way that the cutting is done. So that would be another example. And then, you know, unfortunately, there's this incredibly high rate around the world of violence against women. And it's the majority of the time it is done by intimate partners. So either a husband or a father, um, so somebody that they have a relationship with.

And the impact of being the target of violence is everything from mental health impacts of depression and anxiety and PTSD to, of course, physical, where, you know, women and girls are losing their life constantly from violence. And then the impact that that then has, the sort of trickle effect of being abused is, you know, then impacts the way that they parent. It just, it's really, it's a horrible, sort of has a horrible multiplying effect, which happens in every country around the world, in the United States, and, you know, and in the developed world and in the developing world, you know, we are in no means immune to the issue of violence against women. And it has to stop. Yeah.

I mean, it's—which goes back to exactly why you very gently corrected me when at first I said, well, I'm not a woman, so I can't. But I appreciate that, because I think it's an important thing to say, you know, that this is, it's a societal issue that, you know, that the violence, the limitations, the constraints may be, you know, the direct impact may be on women, but the ripple, as you just used the word, affects every single one of us on every level. But what you said is really, I guess maybe this is what makes it so challenging. And I appreciate the way that you prefaced when I asked you, what does this actually look like?

What does this really paint the picture? And you said, let me first say that in the local societies very often where this is happening, there's the culture, this is just the way it is. And it's not perceived as something wrong or something. It's just the accepted way. So people don't perceive themselves as repressing or imposing or harming. It's just that's the way the culture says it's okay. So I guess like the, the, the question there, I guess, and maybe this is part of the,

really the root of the struggle is how do you, how do you then bridge the gap between the book, you know, the rules that, that you work so hard to even put on the books. Yeah. And that battle is one battle in itself. But then if the culture doesn't look at those rules and validate them you know and the culture just says but what we're doing is okay and like and the people believe it in the fiber of their beings because it's been passed down for generation generation they really believe that it's okay and that the rules are just somebody from the outside trying to impose an outside culture and determination about them being wrong on something that they know in the heart or they believe to be okay. How do you even begin that conversation?

It's tough. And, you know, I would also add that certainly in female genital mutilation, in the situation of domestic violence and in early childhood marriage, women are oftentimes just as problematic in perpetuating these practices as men because it happened to them and they think that that's the way it is. So oftentimes, it's the mother, even that's very keen on marrying off their daughter, or very keen on ensuring that, you know, they undergo the ritual of FGM. And I think what doesn't work is having somebody on the national level say, what you're doing is wrong and you're backwards and we know better than you. So you need to, you know, you need to adapt. That's what doesn't work. working on the local level and empowering local community leaders to be your credible

voices on the ground, talking about why X practice is not beneficial to the community and what the sort of negative impacts of that practice are on the health of the girl or the woman or the boy, if it, you know, depending on what we're talking about, or the man, why it is not in the best interest of the community to continue that. But it's a dialogue. It's not a lecture. And it takes time. So patience is an integral part of the formula in working on these issues. I mean, you know, we in the United States, or if you even look at, you know, countries that are thought to be extremely progressive, like thinking about some of the Nordic states, they still struggle with issues like violence against women. So there's not no state has it, you know, has it 100% worked out because we as humans are so imperfect.

Yeah, and I guess that's part of the message also is that, you know, we can talk about, you know, FGM, and we talk about, oh, that's happening in other parts of the world, which seems so foreign to so many people. But the truth is, I mean, there's tremendous violence that happens, you know, pretty much anywhere. If you're listening to this in the U.S. or the U.K. or Australia, which is sort of our three biggest communities, it's happening in your backyard, you know, and potentially a lot closer than that. It may be very sadly happening to some people

who are listening to this right now. Yeah, so it's such a big issue. It's almost difficult to know where to dive in in the conversation. But you became involved in the conversation. Take me back to how the whole conversation became a part of your life. Well, I started my professional career after my education working on the issue of counterterrorism. And I was at the U.S. State Department for our Australian and Canadian friends. That's like our foreign affairs department.

So this is you in D.C.? I was in Washington, D.C., yeah. And almost immediately, I was tasked to look at how the State Department, who I was working for, how they were working with women on the issue of terrorism. And what I found was that we weren't doing a lot of work with women on that issue, on the issue of terrorism. And I thought that that was an opportunity for us to really begin to speak more with women about this issue of terrorism because, in my opinion, the use of violence to advance a political objective, which, you know,

is thought of as sort of the general definition of terrorism, if that's how we think of it, then that's a norm. It's a norm whether you think that's acceptable or it's not. Some families think it is, some families don't. And so I thought, well, women are often the primary conveyors of norms in their family. They're the ones having the conversation about drinking underage or about, you know, use of drugs or whatever, you know, whatever sort of norms exist within a society. So I thought, well, gosh, certainly there's an opportunity for us to equip women and engage women in a way that allows them to engage their community and their family about

this issue. And so we did. We began to do that. And what I found was that in so many of the countries where we were focused, the role of women was so diminished because of what I viewed as a lack of economic independence, meaning a lack of any sort of fallback money. It didn't have to be that the woman was the primary breadwinner or even worked or worked part-time. It was just the lack of any sort of nest egg that if something happened, that they'd be okay. And that could be something happened. It could be meaning, you know, their husband was abusive, or it could be that their husband got hit by a car and was not able to provide for the family anymore. But it had to be something that they felt like they had that little bit of leverage, a little bit of control over their life, where they felt confident in pushing back if they needed

to. And I was concerned by what I viewed as a lack of economic independence for women in so many of these communities where they weren't being listened to, where they had no room to push back, or they felt like they had no room to push back. And that really sort of planted a seed to me about what is the role of economic independence with regards to having control over your life, even some tiny amount of control over your life. Fast forward in my career, I began to expand my look at not only sort of the intersection of women and national security issues, but really women and human security. I want to get it, but I want to actually dive a little bit deeper because I'm still unclear on the connection between the scenario you were just talking about and how that becomes a security issue. So if I am, let's take Afghanistan, which is a country that we worked in.

Right. I am, let's take Afghanistan, which is a country that we worked in. If I'm trying to equip the women of Afghanistan to have a voice within not only their family, maybe their community, maybe at the national level, I'm trying to say, your voice matters. If they come to me and say, I can't say that to my husband. Like he will, that's not acceptable. Like he would be shocked if I pushed back on him like that. It's very hard to sort of just grant them autonomy and power if they don't have any real power. And economic independence any real power. And economic independence gives you power. So our mission on this sort of terrorism and women intersection was we wanted women to play a bigger role in fighting terrorism. We wanted them to be talking to their families that this was not the answer.

Using these tactics was not the answer. We wanted them to play a bigger role in speaking out within the community. Our community is opposed to violence. We want to play a role in conflict resolution. We want to be a part of peace talks, all of these different pieces that, you know, are a part of preventing terrorism or reacting to terrorism, we wanted women to be involved. We wanted them to be advocates for resolution. But it was hard to elevate them, to have that credible voice within their community if they were thought of as being so powerless. And it was that economic independence that I would see sometimes that would give them that power. When I would see an instance in which

a woman was a primary breadwinner, let's say she was an artisan and she was the one who was bringing home the bacon, you know, so to say, she had a lot more control over the family dynamic than if she had, you know, if she was completely dependent on her spouse to support herself and her children. And so that's where I really was exposed to how much economic independence can impact one. And it's not just a woman. I think just traditionally, women tend to be more economically dependent on their spouse. But that was really where I learned how impactful having even some form of economic independence was to her ability to express herself, to be an equal partner, if not

even thought of as a partner in the family and the community in the country. Right. So that's, alright, so I get, now I see the fabric now. Okay. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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Charge time and actual results will vary. So from there, this is the initial exploration for you. It feels to me personal to you. Like what's the deeper why here for you? What's driving you? What's bringing you into this on a deeper level? I really value my independence. I have an extraordinary husband that is, I just feel like I hit the jackpot. I mean, he is incredibly supportive, treats me like a queen. I mean, I really, he's such a wonderful, wonderful man, but I'm very independent and he knows

that. And it was so hard for me to see so many of the women that were smart and capable and hungry. They wanted to learn to read or they wanted to continue their education or they wanted to work. They wanted to make a better life for their children, to not be able to because somebody else said so. I mean, to me, that was heartbreaking because it just felt like their life was being taken from them.

Their opportunity was being taken from them for no reason. And I just couldn't accept that. So where do you go from there? So after being exposed to this sort of role of economic independence, I expanded my focus to include issues of what we call human security, which is sort of the technical term for things like domestic violence, sexual assault, human trafficking. It's really literally the security of your person. And that's when I really saw that this economic independence piece was even more critical than I thought, because I was seeing people who had been traumatized, whether it was trafficking, sexual assault, domestic violence, not being able to leave that dynamic because of their lack of economic independence.

And I just thought, this has to change. Because when looking at the programming, meaning what types of help was being provided on the ground, and I looked at the policies that governments were making around some of these issues, like human trafficking, like sexual assault, like domestic violence, I was seeing a tremendous focus on what we would call social service provision, which would be things like emergency housing, pro bono legal assistance, medical services, psychological services, all invaluable. I would never advocate that they not be. And sort of like intervention-based.

Yes, absolutely. And it's very much so emergency intervention, right? So you're not going to provide somebody housing for the rest of their life. You're providing them a bed until they can find another place to sleep. So that very issue to me was problematic. We were doing, the vast majority of folks that were engaged in this space were engaging with this population of people on a short-term basis around the social service provision. And I wasn't seeing as much focus on the rest of the trajectory of these survivors' lives. Meaning I was seeing them, if they were lucky enough, and most are not, if they had access

to these social services, if they were able to go to a shelter, if they were able to access legal services, which the vast majority of folks are not, then I was seeing oftentimes them going through the system. Hopefully they have success with their work. But then it was oftentimes they were sort of released into the world and we sort of wish them luck which is i mean you know it's it's not ideal step but it's not it's not a solution it's not a long time it's interesting as i mean it's so clear that you know there's a piece of the puzzle that which is helpful but it's there's probably a ton of sort of almost retreat when there isn't something better to move into,

which is support along the way. One of the things that strikes me a little bit is we're almost talking about it in, I hate to use the phrase, but almost like a big data type of way right now, like they. Along as you're doing this work, were there any moments or personal stories or personal contacts that kind of touched you on a level where that made you feel so connected or that really stood out to you that just really illustrated where the pain was and where you had to felt like you were called to step in?

Absolutely. So anytime I've been on the ground working with these survivor populations. I'm exposed to different stories that really remind me why our work is so critical and has the ability to change generations of people. I would say there are two sort of stories in particular that have been very, very moving, both which took place in India. One is I was very keen to identify how I could assist survivors in a way that would fill a gap and would not be sort of reinventing the wheel. And I was in Calcutta, India, two years ago, to learn about human trafficking within India. And we visited red light districts, and we visited aftercare facilities where traditionally, someone who had either escaped or was rescued would be sort of going through the healing process. But then at the end of the trip, we visited these two social enterprises. So these socially inspired businesses that were started both in Calcutta's red light districts for the purpose of providing employment

to human trafficking survivors. And seeing the survivors working in both of those different co-ops was incredibly touching for me because when I previously worked, especially with traumatized communities, you don't feel like you're on equal footing with them in a way because it's so clear that they are the beneficiary and you're the grantor. I loved that working with these social enterprises, it felt like equal footing. They were providing a service because they were working and they were being paid for their work. And there was a pride and a dignity in their eyes that I had not seen in traditional just strictly not-for-profit models. And that was a turning point for me because to me that signaled the dignity of work and the opportunity to earn an income and the ability to then make choices about your life with that income was huge. When

you are receiving a social service, you do not generally have control over what you are being given, right? If I'm in a refugee camp, I can't say to you, you know, we've had rice for the last five days and I'm sick of rice. Or I can't say, you know, this bed is really not comfortable. I'm not interested in this area of town. I don't want to go to the shelter. You don't have choices like that. When you earn an income, you get to make those decisions. Is it maybe limited decisions if you have a limited income? Sure. But it's decisions. And so I loved that these survivors had regained control over their life. Because when you're traumatized, whether, again, whether it's trafficking, or you've been in a war zone, or you've contracted HIV AIDS,

where you've had this experience that's traumatic, control has been taken from you. You don't choose to be in a war zone, generally, you know, unless you are signing up to be in the military. You don't choose to contract HIV AIDS or you don't choose to be abused. These are things that have happened to these people. Control has been taken from them. So I loved the concept of them being able to regain control over their life. And that's what I saw there. And that was a turning point for me where I was committed to trying to support the model of employing survivors so that they could take care of themselves. The other story is also in India. I spent time in a New Delhi, or actually, I'm sorry, Mumbai Red Light District with many of

the girls, little girls that were the daughters of women that were trapped there and they hadn't left yet. And it was very difficult for me to leave knowing that if their mothers don't get out, the daughters have a very limited chance of not being trafficked within that community, within that red light district, meaning their fate is, I don't want to say sealed, but it would be very hard to grow up, be living in that red light district and not be exploited. And that's when I really realized that the work could be multi-generational because if I can get the mother out or get her economically independent, she can get the daughter out. So that was something that knowing that those girls are still there, you know, and they can't leave. That's what, you know, is so heartbreaking is sometimes folks will say, well, gosh, can't

they just like walk out? And what I think there is limited understanding around is in many of these cases, people are bought. I mean, no, you can't walk out. Those girls couldn't just come jump in the car with us and drive away because they were thought to be owned. And there are people that guard, you know, stand at the end of these districts and make sure that you're not leaving. You have to buy your freedom. And it's the same in, you know, you could be in Australia or the UK and the US in a,

in an abusive relationship. Why don't they just walk away? Well, because usually these people have been isolated. Um, they've been told that nobody's going to help them, that they could go to jail, that, um, you know, that they are, are not valued by anyone but the abuser. I mean, they've been brainwashed into thinking that they can't. So they don't. So you come back from those experiences and decide you got to do something about it. Yeah. I mean, my experience in Calcutta was two years ago. My visiting the girls was much

more recent after I started to the market. That was just sort of a reminder of how impactful this type of work can be. But it certainly, I felt very clearly called to be a part of that space. And it took me about nine months to figure out what I was going to do in that space. Because again, I didn't want to reinvent the wheel. I wanted to understand what is it like to employ survivors? What is working? What's not working? How can I help? What are my skill sets versus the needs? And ultimately, based on having conversations with as many folks as I did who were employing survivors all over the world and all types of survivors, survivors of abuse, survivors of conflict, survivors of disease. I built my model based on what they shared with me. So what'd you build? So To The Market has three focus areas.

One of our focus areas is assisting these organizations that are already out there working with these survivor populations, helping them to sell the products that they make. So the most common way that these groups tend to employ these survivor populations is by employing them to produce products. And the reason they do that is because in many parts of the world where these organizations are based, there is an existing capacity to do things like beading or sewing that is ingrained in the culture that they are able to very quickly build upon. And that isn't, you know, a very quick confidence builder for the survivor they're working with. And it's something that is reflective of the culture that a consumer tends to like. They want to feel like the piece generally that they're buying is somewhat sort of tied with the culture where they bought it. And so we assist

these organizations employing survivors to sell their products. So that's a huge sort of focus. The second piece of the model is storytelling. We feel like we have an opportunity to do advocacy around the issues that we've been talking about today, sharing with folks what's going on in the world so that they might be inspired to do something and to help and to get involved and to keep their eyes open for these types of social justice issues. And also there's an opportunity for us to really provide a platform for some of the survivors to tell their story and to sort of share what they've gone through and what they're looking forward to in their life. So we also see that as sort of a cathartic opportunity for them. And then the third piece of our model is trying to assist these organizations that are employing

survivors to be essentially more efficient and effective. So, for example, we provide things like trend forecasting, which is a tool that talks about what the trends are for the upcoming season. So that if I'm a co-op in New Delhi and I see that long necklaces are going to be in style and I make jewelry, that I might want to make more long necklaces for the upcoming season than I would be, you know, chokers or whatever it is. So that would be an example of the type of feedback and advice that we try to provide to assist them in being more efficient and more effective. Right. So, and I mean, the storytelling, three big pieces of the puzzle, which fill in that gap from the emergency intervention to, okay, how do I become independently sustainable and have, create my own economic opportunity, which allows me that then freedom of choice

to a certain extent to choose the scenario that I want for me, my family, moving forward. The storytelling element's got to be a huge part of it. I'm curious what you're doing with that. But it's also got to be a really delicate part of it, too. I mean, how do you tell those stories in a way that shows? So I'll give an example. A friend of mine works in experiential learning with at-risk kids, you know,

and when she goes to sponsors and people to help contribute to her organization, she wants to tell the story of the at-risk kids. But if the kids are in the room, nobody wants to be labeled an at-risk kid. You know, so it's kind of like this thing, how do you tell a really powerful story that's truthful and honest and shows the raw nature of what's going on and the deep need? And at the

same time, tell it in a way that honors and exalts the humanity of the person whose story you're telling. It's got to be a really delicate balance for you. It is. I think the first step is making sure that whoever you're talking to wants to talk to you and has the right to refuse any question you ask. We are very keen to ensure that whoever's whoever person we're interviewing has consented to the interview knows that they can stop it at any time, has the right of refusal if they change their mind. I mean, a number of different sort of pieces that we've tried to build in to be as respectful as possible. And then, of course, ultimately, if we deem that it would put them at risk, we're not doing the story. So there are those sort of safeguards built in. With regards to the tone, however, I think we chose to use the word survivors and not victims. And that's super important to us because what most of these folks will tell you is, again, as I noted earlier,

they don't want to be known for something that happened to them. And in some of these cases, maybe it only happened once. Let's take an instance of sexual assault or domestic violence. That's one piece of the puzzle of their entire life. They have a lot more to tell. They are a human too. They have dreams and aspirations and life experiences that might be different. And we try to stay as future focused as we can when we talk to the survivors so that they feel like they have the opportunity

to talk about what they're looking forward to and, you know, things that they have benefited from having this economic independence. So we try to sort of provide a brief context of their experience, but really focus on them as an individual and what's their favorite part of, you know, do you have a favorite jewelry piece that you make or do you have a favorite color or tell me about, you know, what it's like raising a daughter, you know, what is she looking forward to? Things like that, that recognize that what happened to them is one small part of their tapestry. Yeah, that there's hope and possibility still within them and that there's a light, there's

a spark. Absolutely. And I, you know, one of the things that I did was, you know, I have two survivors on our advisory board, which, again, they provide the State Department used to say, although I'm not sure if he coined this phrase, but I love it and I repeat it a lot. Nothing about them without them, meaning that they need to be a part of the leadership and whatever you're working on, they're part of the focus group. So that was important to us. That is a great motto for pretty much everything. I think so too. In life. I love that actually. Nothing about them without them. Yeah. That's really powerful. It stops you from just assuming that, you know, you know, better, you know, what,

how, what they want, you know, how they want to receive it. Yeah, that's powerful. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X,

available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. Where are you at with what you're doing now? So to the market launched, sort of soft launch, I would say in January 2014, which is when I left my previous job. I left in December of 2013. I was at that point working for the McCain Institute, which was founded by Senator McCain and Mrs. Cindy McCain.

And I was really working with Mrs. Cindy McCain on human trafficking. So I had left the institute and started to the market in January 2014. And we began with creating pop-up shops, which is where let's say that there is a big event like this UN Status on Women sort of week right now, where you would go somebody like the McCain Institute or a major anti-trafficking group come to us and say, we would love to do a logoed bag for our conference or for our corporate gift around the holidays. And some of our co-ops have the ability to do that. And so I began to sort of facilitate that. In the meantime, we were building our online presence, which to themarket.com launched in November of 2014. So that added a third distribution channel for Survivor Made Goods. And in 2015, we are just beginning our retail partnerships where we're working with retailers to have either

product on their site or in stores. So that's sort of the fourth level of distribution channels that we are creating for these organizations employing survivors. It's this kind of interesting juxtaposition to the one-for-one model that's been so popular in the market for a number of years now. I guess it was really kicked off a lot with Tom's. But in a way, you know, it's so interesting because that model is about giving. And what you were saying before is, well, somebody is still not in control of that. You know, they're waiting for somebody to give them a pair of shoes or to give them a pair of glasses, which is still wonderful. You there's some benefit where there may not have been before. But there's there's not control. And what you're doing is stepping in and saying no, like I'm, I'm creating a direct channel for you to create something of value and then have a certain amount of will and choice over how much I create, when I create,

and the value that I get in exchange for it. And then if I want to go and purchase a pair of shoes, I'm going to buy them. And I'm going to pick out what I want. Yeah, and that's, I mean, it may sound like a slight difference, but it's got to be psychologically just a world of difference. I think it's significant. I really think it's significant.

I really like the one-for-one model. Or even it's even more, it's more than just the one-for-one. of organizations that have said, okay, for every $100 hat that I sell, 20% of the proceeds are going to go to this community that, you know, lacks warm clothing, let's say. And again, I think that's terrific. Any way that a company is willing to bring in a social element in a way that's sustainable is terrific. However, I think that employing the communities that you are trying to assist is a very special way of working with them. Especially communities where they've been through something which is very fiercely stripped autonomy. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And I would argue that even if we're looking at sort of the broader issue of poverty alleviation, I think there has been, unfortunately, and obviously not intentionally, but a lot of damage done in communities where the donor culture is overwhelming. Because what happens is folks begin to expect things for free. Let me give you an example. Africa has had certain countries where there are tremendous outside donor presence that are working on the ground, providing services, everything from food to medicine to business mentorship. And what that can do is create a resistance to a willingness to pay for those things. So let's say you and I are both, again, this is just an example. Let's say you

and I are both Kenyan and we're in Kenya and I'm selling oranges. You might not want to buy my orange if you can get an orange for free from somebody else, even if you can afford it. If you can get it free from, you know, XYZ organization, you're going to be resistant to paying for it because you think you can get it for free. And I know that that sounds like a first world problem, but it can have a psychological impact on a community, specifically, I think, around self-esteem. If somebody has been in an instance where they have not earned what they've been given for an extended period of time, they might not, and there are plenty of, you know, instances in which they deserve not to, quote, earn what they're given.

Yeah, I mean, so I'm not. Yeah, I mean, I think we, the blanket proclamation is like, we understand there are extreme circumstances and people in desperate, desperate need. And that's not what we're really talking about. No, we're not talking. We're talking about instances where a community has developed to a place where they can begin to take over different parts of the economy. And there's an unwillingness there in many instances to do that because I think a combination of feeling like, why would we pay for something that we can get for

free? And then also thinking that maybe they don't have the skill sets to manage it or to run it or whatever it is. There's this sort of erosion of independence again, where people don't even realize that they've come to expect certain, I don't want to use the word entitlements because I think it's so associated with, you know, conversations about welfare in the United States or whatever it is, but they have become so used to donors providing services that the transition is very difficult for them to make. And so I think working in a community where from the beginning you say, I want to work with you to give you the opportunity you deserve, and it's going to be a job. You're going to work for that opportunity. To me, that is a more sustainable way to work in a community

that you want to serve. And I think it preserves one's human dignity better than creating solely a perpetual grantor-grantee environment. What's your greatest hope for the organization? My hope for To The Market is that we can scale, but scale in a way that's sustainable, so that the organizations that we've partnered with that are employing these amazing survivors are able to not only continue to pay their employees, but ideally bring on more survivors if that's what they so desire. It doesn't, not everybody desires to grow and that's fine. Many organizations have

decided that they want to be grassroots at a certain, you know, in it within certain constraints and that's okay. That works for some folks. Other folks have a desire to grow significantly and we want to help them do that. But then again, in a way that is sustainable. Right. What's your greatest hope for the survivors? around believing that they are not as worthy or they've done something wrong or they're being punished for something that that's not passed on to their children and that they believe in their heart of hearts that they are just as valuable as their head of state that's my hope for them so this name of this is Good Life Project. So coming kind of full circle back to your journey,

if I offer that term out to live a good life, I want to ask you this on two levels, actually. I'm going to ask you to kind of speak as a proxy on one level and then also just speak from your heart about you and to the extent you feel comfortable about the former, that would be great. But first, just for you, when I offer that term out, to live a good life, what is that to you? I think a good life to me is service to others. I think faith is very important to me. And I think we were made to serve others. I think that's the purpose of life, is to improve the life of others. And it doesn't have to be,

you know, you're improving the life of someone you've never met in a country on the other side of the world. It can be that you're improving the life of your spouse or your friends or your children. But I think service to others is why we were created. I am most happy when I am serving others and feeling like I'm improving their quality of life while they are on this earth. I also am incredibly fortunate that I have, again, an amazing, amazing husband. I have a wonderful family that is hugely supportive of me and has always been supportive of me. And I know as I get older, I realize how rare that really was that I had such incredible examples in both of my parents and in other people within my family and within my community that were modeling not only good values, but things like a strong work ethic.

I realize now how fortunate I am to have that. And then I have incredible friends that I think would do anything to support me. And I feel the same way about them. So to me, that sort of sums up what I would define as a good life. And I think I have an amazing life. I mean, I just feel like I knocked it out of the park. So now I'm going to ask you the other question. And again, if you feel like it's not something you can speak to, just tell me. The survivors who you're in service of, how do you think they would reflect on the question to live a good life in their,

through the eyes of the experience? And again, I realize you're talking about people who survived the wide variety of different things and radically different cultures, but having so much more exposure to them than I've ever had in my life. What's your sense of how, like, what would be the things that would really rise up in their minds to, this would make me okay, like, this would make, this would let me live a good life? Basic needs. A place to lay my head. Enough food to eat that I'm not hungry.

Personal security. Water. Access to education. Basic education. I mean, I think that to them defines that they are in a good place. thing because, you know, if you talk to folks at your local, let's say again, you're, you know, let's say you're in the United States and you're talking to folks in your local rape crisis center, domestic violence shelter, human trafficking shelter, all they're thinking about right now is where am I going to sleep for the next two months? Where is going to be my home? Where am I safe? So, you know, obviously things like accessing food and water can be much easier in places in the developed, quote, developed world.

But things like personal security and having a place to lay your head, those are still rarities. I mean, if you look at the number of shelter beds available to things like human trafficking victims, I mean, you're talking about a tiny sliver of people that are able to access shelter compared to the need. Yeah. It makes me reflect on what we're doing with this project sometimes, you know, when I have the opportunity to sit down with somebody like you, who's really spent a substantial amount of time working within and service of people who are in just such a radically different place than most people in the Western world are and will ever be exposed to. You sometimes forget, you know, the opportunity for us to answer a question like this,

saying, like, gratitude or in service of or love, whatever it may be, it's a blessing, you know? And maybe part of what we're here to do is be in service of others to the point where maybe they can start to explore the next level of answers to the question that we have the luxury of exploring. Absolutely. Yeah, we're so fortunate to have our basic needs met. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, it's been my pleasure. Hey, I really enjoyed that conversation. If you found it valuable as well, would so appreciate if you just head on over to iTunes, take a couple of seconds and let us know, share a review or rating, always honest. And if you found this episode, the conversation valuable and you think other people, maybe friends or family would enjoy it and benefit from it,

go ahead and share it with them as well. And as always, if you want to know what's going on with us at Good Life Project, then head over to goodlifeproject.com. And that's it for this week. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight Risk.