Good Life Project - Owning Your Darkness as a Path to Freedom: Zainab Salbi

Episode Date: October 9, 2018

Zainab Salbi (http://zainabsalbi.com/) is a humanitarian, author, and global change-maker. At the age of 23, Salbi founded Women for Women International, a grassroots humanitarian and development organization dedicated to serving women survivors of wars by offering support, tools, and access to life-changing skills to move from crisis and poverty to stability and economic self-sufficiency.Under her leadership as the organization’s CEO (1993-2011), the organization grew from helping 30 women upon its inception to more than 400,000 women in 8 conflict areas. It also distributed more than $100 million in direct aid and micro credit loans that impacted more than 1.7 million family members.But, the whole time, she was living with a huge, dark secret. In her new book, Freedom is an Inside Job, (https://amzn.to/2pnnPou) she shares how owning our darkness along with out light is the unlock key for self-healing and global transformation. And, in today's conversation she shares how this realization awakened her to the need to own her own dark family secret in order to heal herself and serve at a higher level.-----------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So at the age of 23, my guest today is Zainab Salbi, founded Women for Women International, a grassroots humanitarian and development organization that is dedicated to serving women survivors of wars by offering support, tools, and access to all sorts of life-changing skills to help move from crisis and poverty to stability and economic self-sufficiency. Under her leadership as the organization's CEO until 2011, that organization grew from helping 30 women to more than 400,000 women in eight conflict areas and distributed more than $100 million in direct aid

and microcredit loans, impacting more than 1.7 million family members. She is also somebody who has been named as one of the 100 leading global thinkers. Fast Company called her one of the 100 most creative people in business. And she has a powerful new memoir out now called Freedom is an Inside Job. That is an exploration of her life, her journey, but also her awakening to the inner work that it takes to be of service with integrity and authenticity. And a lot of this came from her stepping into and owning a secret that had followed her for the entirety of her

life, something that she had no role in creating, but it was a part of her early life. And for her to fully step into and own her work in the world, she needed to grapple with this part of herself. We dive into that in a lot of detail in this conversation and explore how that has infused and mobilized the work that she's done in the world and also really profoundly changed her life. Excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. There is this one story that you shared that I found really moving.

And that was the story of a Congolese woman. Would you share that? Well, yeah. I mean, Amintu is a woman who changed my life. And in so many ways. I mean, when I met her, she was 52 years old in DR Congo, in Eastern Congo. She had just survived a horrible act of violence, malicious, attacked her village and attacked her home particularly, raped her nine-year-old, 21, 22-year-old daughters, raped her, surrounded,

you know, she doesn't know how many men because they just surrounded her in a circle and just took turns raping her. They forced her son to spread his mother's legs open. And when he, and they actually asked him to rape her. And when he refused, they shot him on the foot. Then they pillaged everything they own, chicken, whatever. And then they burned the rest. And when I met her, she had only one dress on, like the one that neighbors gave it to her because she was naked after their militias left. And the shoes she was wearing, she had made up out of garbage, basically. And I'm sitting next to her, in front of her rather, and she said, I never told anybody but you that story. And how were you sitting in front of her? What brought you there?

Well, because I had expanded Women Forming International to Congo, and the organization I built was to help women, is still actually to help women survivors of war. So I followed wars from one war to the other from way back in the 90s, in the Bosnia war, and then Rwanda and Afghanistan, Congo, and so many other wars around the world. And my whole aspect was like, we need to look at war and peace and understand war and peace from a woman's perspective. And women are just cornered as only victims in wars, but no one are asking them about their views on peace. How are they defining peace? How are just cornered as only victims in wars, but no one are asking them about their views on peace. How are they defining peace?

How are they defining war as well, which is not for them. For women, it's not only about fighting and the end of fighting. War and peace for them is about fighting and destruction indeed, but peace is about stability. They talk about schools. They talk about roads being built. They talk about electricity, bicycles, basic things, which peace negotiations and agreements don't account for that. So the whole idea of Women for Women Tensure, that we need to understand war and peace from a woman's perspective, and we need to help women

stand up on their feet during the war and right after the war, and that is helping them financially, educationally, get a job, because at the end of the day, they are the ones who are cleaning up the mess, right? So I always went to wars. And Nambito was one of the first people that I met in Congo, you know, when I was trying to expand the organization in Congo. And it was the most humbling moment in my life. You see, I've traveled, you know, not only traveled around the world in war zones, I've worked with hundreds of thousands of women in war zones and interviewed myself thousands of them. And you always hear the same, it's like there's a pattern to war, you know, and the story of what happened to women is usually rape,

mutilation, killing, all of that. So on one hand, Nambita's story was actually a typical story of what women go through in war. Except in this one, she looked at me and she said, I have never told anybody but you my story. So I looked at her back and I said, I have to be honest with you. I am a storyteller. I come back to America. I tell stories like yours. And I hope that people will get attention and they will give us support, you know,

and we raise money. And that money is not going to be only for you, Nambitu. I actually don't know if I can find you again, but it's going to be for women in your country and in your towns and in your villages and all of these things. That is the truth, Nambitu. So I told her the whole truth, basically. I didn't want to promise her something that I could not promise that I could deliver. So she looks at me in the eyes and she said, if I can tell the whole world about my story, I would. So other people would not have to go through what I have gone through. So other women would not have to go through what I've gone through. But I can tell the world, you can. You go ahead and tell the story, just not to the neighbors. Now, a year later, we managed to get Nibito on the Oprah Winfrey show. We raised about $5 million as a result of that one show. We end up helping tens of thousands of women in Congo.

And so that's fantastic. That's the fantastic news. On the other hand, I drove in that after the interview, I drove back into Rwanda, which is five hours drive, and I started crying. And because I realized that that woman has more courage and consciousness between the connection of her individual story and the collective story of other women than I had. I thought of myself as an educated woman. Right. You're out there doing this in the world for years. Helping women in Africa and in Afghanistan and all of these things. They are the poor women. I am okay, right? She is illiterate woman, homeless, gone through horror. So it was always about them, never about me. But I was caught in that moment

for my lack of courage, for my cowardness indeed, for hiding behind other women's stories and pretending that I don't have a story because mine is not as severe as theirs. And you may say, well, mine is not as severe as yours, et cetera, et cetera. But each story has actually its own potency on our personal lives. We cannot compare which story is worse, in my opinion. You take the merit and the integrity and the dignity of each story and how it's impacting you on its own. One, B is when we hide from our stories and we make it about the other poor people, you know, story, we actually are hiding from showing up fully in this world. And that I had

the responsibility not only to help women in war zones and march and tell them, break their silence, to break the, you know, to speak up against the oppression, all of that. I had to do it on my own. And I was asking them to do something that I was too coward, too much of a coward to do it myself. And so when I say it was the most humbling experience is that I realized I cannot ask others what I cannot do for myself. And I really have a choice either to show up with my full story in its entirety and break my own silence. And in this way, next time I show up, not only in front of Nibito or other women, I show up with my telling of my story, not only curious about their other sad story.

You see what I mean? Because I show up with saying, this is my story. Can you share with me yours? If they want to share with me theirs, but that becomes a gift of respect. And that if I could not do that, then I should leave this entire work of humanitarian work, an entire work of preaching about women's rights, because I could not have done it. I was not doing it for myself, and I was staying in my silence. And as a result, it sort of opened the Pandora's box for me. As a result, I started with the phase one of telling my own story, realizing that it is really hard, that I had to confront my shame, my worry, my fear, all of it. And it's not easy.

It humbled me hugely. oh, when I tell the story, I free myself from that anxiety and worry and fear. And that that taste of truth tastes fantastic, actually, it's delicious. Where else am I not telling the truth in my life? And from that goes into, I go into my relationships, my work, my relationship with myself. And then from there, I actually went into an inner journey that took me to freedom as an inside job. Yeah. There's so much that I want to dive into in that short moment. What a powerful awakening. When this happened and then you're driving back to Rwanda and there's five hours and then you're in Rwanda and you're contemplating this and you're feeling it and you're moved to tears. Was the awakening that

you had your own story and it had value and you needed to tell it, did you decide at that moment to tell it or was it still a process of convincing yourself? Well, there is a context to that story as in this was during the same time that the second Gulf War was taking place, or right after that, as a matter of fact, shortly. I wanted to write a book about what's happening to Iraqi women and what Saddam did to them. You know, the women in prison, the women who are raped, the women, all of that. And my publisher said, actually, we want your story. And I was furious. I was like, I don't want your story. And I was furious. I was like, I don't have a story.

You don't understand. I am like, there's no story. I wasn't tortured. I wasn't, you know, like nothing severe about my story. And so I was like, rush them. I was like, absolutely not, you know? And then, so there was this, but I wanted to write other women's stories

and I was passionate to tell other women's stories from my own country of origin, but it was never me because I don't have a story. And in that moment, after NIMBY 2 told me that, I picked up the phone, I called my publisher and I said, I'm sorry, I will write my own story first before I could tell other women's stories. I need to walk my own walk before I ask other women to walk their walk. Yeah, so powerful. So let's share some of that story because it informs everything about what you've just talked about and the journey that you've been on. You mentioned this was the, you know, at that moment, it was sort of the start of the next

wave of the Gulf War. Take us back in time. So you grew up in Baghdad, in Iraq. Yes, I grew up in Baghdad, Iraq. And the story of my shame has many dynamics. One, the biggest one is that my family were friends of Saddam Hussein. We were actually one of the families in his inner circle. And everything about my identity was as the daughter of Saddam Hussein's pilot. My father was his personal pilot. How did that come to be? That came to be as in Saddam came from a small village. And when he rose to power as the vice president first,

he had many circles around him, the military circles or whatever. My family were part of the elite in Baghdad. They are English speakers. They studied abroad. They knew how to dance to Western music. They, you know, whatever, they had Western clothes, all of these things. It was just yuppies, I call them, of Iraq, you know. And he needed that social circle basically both to legitimize his access to a certain class of society, one, and B, because our role ended up actually showing him how to do these things, you know, whether dancing to Western music or eating with a knife and fork or entertaining some of the diplomats that, you know, Western or actually in many cases Castro sent him, you know.

So we played the role who are the friends who knew the Western world or English or all of that. And it was not easy. So you see, for the longest time, I was very angry at my parents. How dare you become a friend of the dictator? And, you know, being a friend of the dictator, by the way, did not mean that we were immune from danger. It meant that we're just that close to danger, that much closer to danger. He killed his best friends. He tortured his allies, all of these things. And we lived in

fear. And I lived and grew up with my mother trying to commit suicide all my life, all my life. She would tell me, I can see, I could see the prison bars. I just cannot prove their existence. And so it was scary. And I was like mad at my parents, like why could they leave and accept? And over the years, Jeff, you know, I came to mine, you know, I was like, I will always turn around and not shake his, but I shook their hands, you know. So that was the circumstance of my family. They were cornered into the relationship. Right. Especially with, I mean, there's literally the threat of loss of life and torture and the worst things.

So it's interesting. You didn't say they were friends of Saddam. Your language was they played the role of friends, which is kind of interesting. We were like jesters for him. I mean, we were like the entertainers, basically. We literally, I grew up dressed up in our weekends. You know, he gave us a house in a farm compound with him and other friends. And we would literally dress up and wait for him to come. And when he came, the rules my mom taught us, taught me and my brothers, that when he

come, when he smile, you smile. When he cries, you cry. He would show us things or tell us stories. And he would ask us, is it nice? And we're like, oh, like literally robotic. Yes, it's very nice, uncle. I mean, like literally, I mean, and it's like, we were trained. We were his entertainers. We had no opinions. We could not express anything. If, you know, one time he came and I was alone and he was in his car driving and he said, Zainab, you want a tour of my houses? So I was like, okay. You know, I'm a teenager. It's like, he's uncle. What can I do? The rules is to listen to whatever he says. Now, this is

not the book, by the way. This is my memoir. And, you know, my parents were not happy with him, you know, for taking me alone and then later other girls and like basic things. They had no opinion. They couldn't express their opinion on the most basic behavior, even what it related to their life. So I grew up with this fear and with the secret, you know, it's not a secret in Iraq. It was public, but we could never tell anybody what happened inside that relationship. So for me to break that secret, even though I had been in America for two decades at the time or less, just a little bit less, I had lived here. I was still scared of saying his name. I was scared to say Saddam Hussein in my own backyard. And so for me, you know, it was like breaking away from my fear. And in the process,

I realized I had become the prison guard to my own fear. He was the real story of fear, but I had maintained it in my own. And it was my trauma. I mean, like I was scared if I tell you, I knew Saddam Hussein, you would see him instead of seeing me. But there are other aspects of shame in my story that my, this liberal family that I came from actually got me in America through an arranged marriage to a man that I did not know. And that's how I arrived to America. And there's the embarrassment that you're an educated person. I did not grow up oppressed as a Muslim woman. But when I say I was here in an arranged marriage, people immediately go to the stereotype of what that means, you know, and I did not want to be stereotyped, you know, and there was a shame and

embarrassment of it. There's a shame and embarrassment that this man that I married actually end up raping me in my own marriage. And I did not know how to articulate that. And I felt that there's a discrepancy between me being a feminist and a women's activist. And here I was actually an abused woman myself and in an arranged marriage to a horrible, horrible husband, first husband, in fairness to my second husband, you know. So there's a lot of this shame, you know. And when I realized, when I start breaking the story, and that there's a trauma, of course, you know, I grew up in the Iran-Iraq war, and the trauma of war, like, you know, we just passed July 4th, for example, it's scary for me to hear the fireworks. I still

break into sweats and shiver when I hear the fireworks. And so there's a lot of shame and complexities and how you want people to see you and how you want to be seen and but who you are really and your family telling you, do not break your silence, do not speak. You're bringing shame to our family. And yet you feel like this is the right thing. And in the process of confronting all of these things, you realize it's one thing to go and march with a bullhorn and tell women, break your silence. You know, it's quite another thing to actually do it for yourself and confront your father who's saying, you're going to bring us trouble. And your family saying, why are you putting the dirty laundry of your family out there? You know, all of these things,

and you're confronting your own shame about yourself. And yet, and yet, we can no longer, in my opinion, speak out of self-righteousness if we do not walk our own journey. We must walk our own journey, each individual. Because when we walk our own journey, we walk it with understanding that this is hard, that this is not easy, that, oh, I have been complicit in this or complacent in that story. Oh, it's much easier to judge others on moral grounds. But when it comes to me, oh, shoot, I haven't done it myself. And that makes us more humble. And that makes us more compassionate towards the others, whether the others we don't know, whether it's the others that we like, or even the others

that we do not like. It makes us more compassionate towards what does it really mean to walk the journey of being in truth to yourself. Yeah. And I mean, in so many ways, I mean, you use the word shame many times and it feels like it's, yes, there's this feeling of shame that you have to deconstruct within yourself and understand where does that come from? Also fear, I mean, and not fear of shame, but in your case, very real fear of harm to yourself, harm to your family. I mean, what happens if you tell this story and you still have family in Iraq? And how will it land with your friends in the West? How will it land with the people that you seek to support the humanitarian work you're doing?

And how will it affect those that you love, those close to you back in Iraq? So it's these layers of complexity around it. Well, and I had to deal with it. Yeah. Look, there was a safety issue, of course. And here's my line of thinking, and here's how I barely got my father's blessing, though he never read any of my books. And I said, Saddam was our oppressor on a very personal level, but also on a collective level as the dictator of Iraq, right? And either we take a hold of our own story and write it for ourselves. And yes, that is a leap of faith. That is like jumping off the cliff and not knowing you're going to land or not. Or the story is going to be written for us

from other people's perspective, and we will die in our silence. So that dichotomy between speak up and risk or stay silent and die, you know, is very real for me. I still get pushed back by my family who's like, do not stop talking, stop, stop talking. And the threats first from our security, you know, just personal life as security, to cutting love. Like, I will not love you if you still continue to speak, you know?

And that dichotomy of do I speak? And it's a leap of faith and I may risk everything. I risk safety, but I risk love as well, love of my own family, because they're upset at me for breaking the silence. Or do I stay silent? Now, I have seen enough women who stay silent. You know, I've seen my own mom who stays silent and did not say anything about what happened to her and to so many women around her, you know, and the reasons behind her suicide, attempted suicides, you know. So I was like, I look at my mom and she died actually with Lou Gehrig's disease and

in silence. I was like, okay, you know, you know, yes, generations of women stay silent to what happened to them because that's the threat. You know, if you speak, you lose, you know, or we speak up, we're losing anyway. Like for me, as I speak up, because I will die if I no longer, if I stay in my fear, in my silence. And I feel like that paradigm is actually, honestly, many women in America face as well. You know, in my case, it was life and death, true, but also it was love and no love, you know? My family accepting me or rejecting me for doing that act. And here's what happened. I broke up the silence.

A lot of people actually rose up and said, she's speaking our story, not only hers. Bravo for her. A lot of people say, thank you. You're actually, by your having courage, you're actually telling the whole world about what happened to us while we may not have the courage to do that. Many people, friends of my father called him and said, good for her. And my father is still scared. You know, he's like,

he still tells me, don't do it. No, no, no, no, no. You know, and he's still threatening me with like, you'll lose my love if you do that. And, and it's every time it's scary for me to lose love, you know, and my family and I love them and I don't want them to leave me. And yet, do I walk the walk of my own truth? Or do I, you know, lie or not lie, stay in silence, but then I should not be in the women's rights business at all. Right. I mean, because that's the interesting tie-in. So it's like you have two journeys going on. Like there's the personal journey of discovery, you know, but simultaneously you're out there in the world building this career,

doing the work you feel you're here to do, which is to serve women in need and, you know, some of the worst places in the world and the biggest need. And a big part of, you know, because you've done this for years, a big part of your ability to do that effectively is to continue to tell their story to people who haven't seen it. But then you awaken to the realization that you can no longer do that if you personally aren't willing to step into this place, regardless of what effect it has on your family and all the other things.

Well, I call it the evolution of activism. So as an activist myself, and we are living in the era of activists, and I honestly used to demonstrate with bullhorns and chant the slogans against this war or against that violation of what women are going through throughout my 20s. So much so that someone asked me in my late 20s, what keeps you going? And I was like, I am pissed off at injustice. I am pissed off at the injustice women are facing. And so I went at it from a self-righteous approach, righteous anger, righteous values, all of these things. And in the process, of course, I got lots of friends and comrades and built huge organization, you know, that helps, as I said, half a million women, you know, survivors of wars.

But I also alienated people. If you did not agree with me, I'm not your friend. You know, I just surrounded myself with people who agreed with me, of course. And many of us do that, right? And then I realized that, well, actually, that was 1.0 of activism. You know, it did not have an understanding. It had judgment. It had righteousness. But the second phase of activism, which is, oh, I need to look at these values that I'm advocating for outside of myself to see if I'm actually really implementing them in myself. And then when I implement them in myself or assess where they are in myself, I was like, oh, shoot,

this is hard. Oh, my God, I had no idea how hard it is. But I still work on it inside myself. And then I still advocate for these values. But now it's a different advocacy. It's an advocacy from a realization of what muscles, what emotional muscles it takes from us to do what we're advocating for others to do. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. As an activist, I always, and I love Nelson Mandela, of course. And so I would always like in my speeches, you know, we must forgive. We must like reconciliation, forgiveness. It's like, you know, I still love Nelson Mandela and the values he stood up for, right? But these values, when I repeated it, was to talk about others. You know, it was more like, you know,

South Africa, admiring them. You must forgive. Right. Admiring the others, you know, even if I thought, you know, oh, we need to forgive each other. Oh, we need to. Then, to be very, very honest, a few years ago, a man that I loved dearly, he was my partner, you know, he broke my heart. Broke my heart. He cheated on me. He went and it broke my heart, but I was devastated. And I was like, I can't forgive him. I couldn't forgive him. And it dawned on me, I was like, okay, what's the point of giving speeches about forgiveness, you know, for, oh, look at how these Rwandese forgave each other, or South Africans forgave each other in a process. I can't forgive this man that I loved, you know, that it's like not even the enemy. I loved him, you know, and he hurt me and I couldn't forgive him. And so then I realized, well, I need to understand the meaning of forgiveness and the meaning of forgiveness. I needed to understand it in me, you know, because I couldn't

forgive the person right in front of me. And so with that case, I had to understand it in me, you know, because I couldn't forgive the person right in front of me. And so with that case, I had to go and ask myself, where, what have I betrayed myself? And then I, you know, in that journey of self-discovery, you realize I have betrayed myself a few times. And then I was like, why have I betrayed myself? And I betrayed myself out of my own insecurities of wanting to be loved. So you compromise your instinct yourself or whatever, because you want to satisfy people to make you to be like the good person, the nice person, you know? And so you compromise yourself.

And I was like, I did that. So then I asked, could I forgive that part of myself, you know? And I could, because it was such an insecure, even pathetic, actually, you know? I was like, yes, I could forgive her. I felt bad for her. And then when I could forgive me, it was so easy to forgive him. Because I understood that we betray others or ourselves out of our own insecurities. And honest to God, it is so much easier for me now to talk about forgiveness and advocate for indeed the political

forgiveness or indeed between men and women in these days of Me Too, you know, movement or indeed between two enemies, because I actually understood it in myself that this is hard, where it comes from, is it possible or not, and how do we go about it? And my activism now is from the core of my spine, from a realization that this is not easy, this is hard, but I was able to do it. And it's no longer just chanting slogans. I'm actually able to talk about it from a very intrinsic experience. And by the way, it was not a political others, you know, I'm from Iraq and so on. It was actually about a boyfriend. Do you know what I mean? And yet the advocacy is still political and it's still the larger, you know, how do we forgive even when we are not asked for forgiveness? You know, when I first, you know, thought about it, still the larger, you know, how do we forgive even when we are not asked for forgiveness?

You know, when I first, you know, thought about Linus, like that's an impossible, but now I believe we can indeed forgive even when not asked for forgiveness. Yeah. I mean, it's such an interesting idea. And I hear that. I'm like, yes, I get it. On an intellectual level, I get it. On an embodied, okay, I understand how this would work to make you feel better level, I get it. And still, I'm a human being. We're all human beings. We're complex. We hold onto, we grasp. And the idea, I think for so many, especially in the heated environment that it's interesting to be sitting here as a white male in New York City talking about the heated environment when so much of the world has been in so much more duress and so much

more heat. And yet, as I'm saying this, I'm also reflecting on your earlier words, which is that to compare any of our individual stories to somebody else's does both of us an injustice. But if I just look at the environment that we're in today societally, there's a lot of rage. There's a lot of harm, genuine harm. And the idea of having forgiveness enter those conversations feels so far away and so foreign and so impossible to so many people.

Indeed, indeed. And yet it's, if we do not go in this country into the route of truth, forgiveness, and reconciliation, division and fear and anger and blame one of the other will not help us move forward. It's simply that. And so it's painful. How could I forgive this racist, bigot, sexist, whatever? And yet it's more painful to see that part of me, you know, like, you know, I change. I mean, I just change strategy, honestly, because I start losing a lot of friendships and love,

especially after the election, you know, when I'm just so upset at what's happening in here. And so someone, you know, tells me, choose any values. If they're against my values, I just go from zero to rage and discuss at their values you know you know i was once in a in a dinner and this woman that's you know was married to my dearest friend which like talked about how she believes all you know gays and lesbians are going to go to hell and all animals are here to serve us and And there's no such thing as global warming.

Like one value after the other that I was horrified, just horrified. I was like, you know, and I did not have a conversation with her. I just attacked her. I just, you know, it became a fight between who's right and who's wrong. And I lost that friendship forever.

And so I came to realize, okay, here, you know, here we are, you know. We've got to engage in a different way. And we've got to engage, in my opinion, by first seeing ourselves and seeing the other. Fear for me is like a wall. It takes both sides to take a leap of faith to lower their wall so they can see the other. And so what I'm saying is you still need to lower your wall, you know, and it's scary because the other may not see you, but it's your own leap of faith. They may see you or may not see you, but at least you're trying. In other words, what I'm trying to say, it's easier to blame each other right now and scream at each other, which we are. And I'm saying, I actually am proposing a bit of a different strategy of owning our own part of whatever story it is.

Even if it's our part is 20%, whatever, you know, seeing where have I been complicit and complacent in it, being aware of it, not because you want to whip yourself out of guilt, but because you want to be aware, you know, when we're aware of our own shadow, what I call, you know, the part of us that are, we're not very proud of, you know, or we look aside or we dump it under the rug. It doesn't mean own it because just tell the whole world, oh, this is my shadow, you know, this is where I'm at. Own it because just tell the whole world, oh, this is my shadow. That's where I'm at. Own it because you are in control of it. And then you take away the monopoly of the other person who's seeing it and actually hijacking you with it. What President Trump, for example, does, he calls the ugly in whatever is happening, right? And when we don't own, you know, a lot of times people call something accurate,

but then they exaggerate in it because we're not owning any part of it. And what I'm saying is, do own whatever ugly in yourself. It doesn't matter what, you know, you're this, you're that, it doesn't matter. Even if it's 10%, own it. Because when you own it, you say, oh yeah, I know I am like this. I know I'm not pure good. I know you still don't have the right

to do that. You see what I mean? Change the dynamic of the discussion from right and wrong to the right and wrong being in both sides. Yeah. And I think also, I mean, part of what's coming up as you share this is the idea that we're, there's so much conversation now around, we have lost so much humanity. We've lost the ability to see the humanity in others. It's just us versus them. And you write about this. And rather than saying, well, you know, you've got to see humanity in that other person.

Like if you can't see the humanity in somebody else, what it's telling you to a certain extent is that you can't see the humanity in yourself. And the cause is not because they're so offensive to you. The cause is because there's something within you that is disconnecting you from your own humanity. And we don't want to, that I think is more offensive and harder for us to deal with than seeing the humanity in others. But it's an interesting thing to play with. I have to kind of let that spin in my head a little bit. Well, you articulated it very well, but just to give you a very simplified version of this, you know, so I was, you know, then I had a second marriage with a wonderful man for 15 years. It's beautiful, nothing wrong with it. And we just drifted apart. Like, you know, we end up getting divorced out of love, not out of

hate or anger. It just drifted apart and we called it what it is, that it just, this relationship is evolving into a friendship and we loved each other, right? So one day, but of course, as all couples, we had the bickering and the fight and all of these things, you know. And one day, my husband at that time had left the house. We were separating. We were separated, actually. And everything in my life was okay. Like nothing to irritate me on a day-to-day basis, you know. And I found myself irritated at home on a Sunday night.

And I'm just like, ugh. And I'm itching and cleaning and doing something just to get me busy and not solving. And I realized if he was with me at home, I would have picked a fight with him. And I would have hurt him as a wife would know how to hurt her husband. You would say something, you two months ago said this and that. And when you create a fight out of the blue, out of nowhere, you know, because you're irritated and you project it on the person right in front of you, which is the person you love the most usually, you know.

But he was not there. He was not in the house. He was not in the room. He was not in my bed. He was not in my life, as a matter of fact. And I'm like, and I just like, shoot, I catch myself wanting to create a fight with him, but he's not there. And literally, I mean, it's like magic. My index finger moves towards me, pointing at me. And I'm like, oh, shit, it's me. It's me that I have to

look inward and look into. And that is the hardest journey. So think about it the same with politics. You know, the husband was the other. I'm blaming it. It's all you. It's all you. You said this and you did this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And well, he left.

And I had to confront me and had to confront where I am irritating, where I am, you know, doing things that actually creating problems, where I own my piece of the story. And that's just with a husband in here. Do you see what I mean? And so the same thing, take it very personally. And then, I mean, and the book actually shows the personal journey. It starts with a very personal journey. Go into your personal journey because it's really hard, but it is worth it. Like the freedom because you say, oh, yes, I was bad in this and I was good in this and I was bad in this.

I think of life as my carriage with two horses, to quote Wilma Mankiller, a light horse and a dark horse. And usually we each want to see ourselves only as the good people, good person, right? So the light horse only. But there's a dark horse in every person's life. And when you're not putting the leash on the dark horse, the dark horse takes you, you know, south all the time. Like, it's just like, you know, and then going on the other direction. And you're like, shoot, where did that come from? Where did that impatience or snide remark came from? Where does that cruelty came from? And you want to dismiss it and you know, and just dump it under the rug and not talk about it. You know, I'm saying actually see it, put a leash on it. You will be in control over that shadow. You may even

use it constructively one day rather than be ashamed or afraid of it. And you call it what it is. You know, it's like, yes, that's what it's my shadow. Do not use it to, and I'm talking to the other, do not use it to manipulate me or to blackmail me because you think I can't see my shadow. You see what I mean? And so, yes, it's hard journey. It's a long-term journey, but it is one that has more sustainability in it. Yeah. I mean, one of my curiosities with that also is for you to go on that journey in the first place requires an astonishing amount of

self-awareness because it's not one where you're like, oh, this is going to be fun. Let me pack my bags. We're going to the beach. We'll have some slushies while I'm relaxed. And this is like, you're saying yes to something which may take you to and through some very dark places and through some struggle and through some awakenings to things about both the world around you and yourself that you would rather not see because it's easier to just kind of coast through. And so for you to get to a place where you can, in the moment, as you described, recognize what's actually going on, to develop the meta attention, to sort of zoom out and say, oh, I see what's really going on here. I'm making this whole thing up because there's something else happening. To cultivate that level of awareness, that takes a lot of work. What have you done? What has been your process to be able to actually do that just on a practical day-to-day level?

Well, let me first answer the incentives. And the incentive is I want to be happy. Yeah. Right? And the journey is first, as all of us, you walk the journey of your life with checking the boxes of what society tells you you should do. Get a good career. Check, you know, good husband, check, good house, good apartment, good car, whatever it is, check, check, check, vacation, check, nice clothes, check, nice restaurants. I mean, like, you name it, right? And then you do all of these things. And then you find yourself not happy still.

I mean, this is where I find myself. I'm not saying that everyone does that, you know, or everyone goes through that. In my case, it's like, I was like, okay, I did it. And there is still a vacuum inside, you know? So you can buy more clothes, you can do more surgeries, you can go on more vacations, you can do all the purchasing you want in the world. It doesn't fill it. And in your case, you're also, I mean, it's like, okay, so you've checked all the boxes of things that you're supposed to have and that you want. And at the same time, you're serving a universe of people that need deep and profound help in a really big, global, meaningful way. And still, you weren't getting what you needed.

Well, exactly. And then I realized at one point, I caught myself like, okay, if I'm advocating for women to be happy, I am no longer happy. If I'm advocating for women to be free and independent, well, I was no longer free and independent. And I don't mean by financial independence from my husband, but independent in my decision-making, my life, living my life the way I want to do. If I want women, like, so I realized that all the values that I'm advocating for outside, I actually was not living it inside. So what's the point? And so first I realized the cause you're working on, whether it's raising your children or whether it is your job, does not require you to self-sacrifice. I mean, that's the biggest. And in my case, you're right. The cause is a very worthy one. It's a mega humanitarian one. And still, it does not require you to self-sacrifice. The cause

requires you to be full. Whether it's your children or your job or whatever it is, you're required to be full in your person. You are required to be healthy and happy and give out of the fullness, not out of scarcity. When you're full in yourself, you are required to be healthy and happy and give out of the fullness, not out of scarcity. You know, when you're full in yourself, you give and it doesn't exhaust you. Right. And you have so much more. Exactly. It replenishes. But to be full, you need to take care of yourself. You know, it's like a chicken and an egg thing.

You have to take care of yourself, but to take care of yourself, you have to actually not work as hard or not work as hard, but not work 24 hours. You know, you have to like carve up the time and the space not only to exercise and eat healthy, but to actually look inward. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. You know, sometimes, honestly, I mean, in my personal life, I used to work so hard, get exhausted, then like just stay in bed for a day because I'm just like can't move or go on vacation, revive, then work so hard and then go like basically my tank would be full and empty,

full and empty. And eventually I realized this is not sustainable, that I really need to actually do the things, the self-caring on a daily basis and not even carve up the spaces in the daily spaces. I need to use the in-between space, you know, coming to your studio in here and the train ride instead of checking my phone, I meditateitated, you know, so I call it in between place. You know, it's August, we're talking about vacationing. And I say, well, yes, of course, I do have vacation. But I also learned to enjoy the day to day of my own existence in my own home and in my own surroundings. There is beauty in the ordinary that I am not paying attention to. That, you know, instead of going to spiritual

retreats, which I did a lot of them, you know, all of these things, honestly, the one thing that changed my entire perception of myself as it relates to beauty was not going, you know, because I grew up thinking that I'm not a beautiful woman. So first you, you uglify yourself because to avoid, you know, addressing that you're not beautiful. Then I realized, oh, actually beauty is important. So then I over shopped, you know, because you want to, again, think that beauty you can acquire from outside. Then you buy makeup and you buy like, you know, you do all the things that they tell you that the commercial system tells you, buy, buy, buy, do, do this, you know, and I did it. I'm still not thinking I'm beautiful. And then, and then I just like, okay, spiritual retreats, let me self find myself is still not

working. And honestly, the one thing that changed my entire life was in my bathroom. A Tibetan woman told me to meditate on my face. She didn't even know I have this issue in the mirror in your bathroom. So I go to my bathroom. It's in New York City. It's not a big deal. I turn on the light. I meditate on my face in the mirror. And I realize I wash my face. And as a woman, I put makeup every day. And I never looked at myself, never looked at me. I just like, you do all the things you're looking, but you're not looking. And I meditate and I realized I need to meditate on only one eye because I want to meditate on my pupil because there were too many features. And I meditate on

my own pupil. And I was like, oh, I see a beautiful soul inside of me. And then after that, my own perception of myself, same body, same size, same clothes, same mirror I've owned for like the last 15 years. I used to look at it and see an ugly woman. Now I look at it and say, oh, a beautiful woman, gorgeous woman, actually. You know, do you see what I mean? That these things that we aspire to change our lives and to get the happiness we're all seeking, you know. And my over-accomplishment in the humanitarian work was also because I'm seeking validation. Like, I am not Saddam. Look, do you see what I mean?

I'm not Saddam. I'm a good person. So you create this mega, you know, organization to help hundreds of thousands of women to prove something about yourself. Like, I'm good, right? And still it did not fulfill the happiness. And so what I came to realize that actually to be happy, I need to A, tell my truth. To tell my truth, it's scary, but it is worth it. You know, you lose some, but you gain a lot.

B, I need to actually look inward in myself and live my truth. And then the things that in that journey, in order to understand life outside of me, to understand happiness, or even to understand the things that scares me, I needed to understand it in myself first. You know, even to understand those other people, ISIS, who scared the heck out of me for the longest time. I did not understand how could people become such radical right-wingers, neo-Nazis. I did not understand. I just don't, I can't fathom how could people become like that. And I, you know, actually my therapist looked at me and she said, well, are you willing to look

in your own shadow to see where is that in you. And that's scary because I am not that. They are bad people. I am a good person, you know. But to look into my own shadow, and I'm saying my shadow is not comparable to theirs, you know. Still, you have to look from your own shadow. And from that darkness of yourself, you are more likely to understand the darkness of others. And from that place, you are more likely to understand how you switch it and bring that light. It's from your own understanding of the darkness within yourself. You go there, you understand it, and you say, how am I going to change it? You ask a question there, you change it there, and then you can talk about it to outside.

Yeah. I mean, it makes so much sense. I mean, because how can you effectively speak to it in others until you can speak to it within yourself, right? Until you can have that conversation internally, how can you even contemplate what that conversation would look like in a way that was compelling between you and somebody else? And look, it's not an easy journey. It's much easier to blame others, especially in America these days. It's like so much easier to blame and to be angry and all. It's just easier. And we can do that for the longest time. And as someone who worked and

traveled around the world, it's not sustainable. It's going to hit on its face, you know? So we either become proactive about how do we actually take ownership of this dialogue and we create a dialogue rather than just keep on pointing the fingers and shouting at each other, which is not productive. So people were going to have to live it to understand it. You know, other countries who have lived in pain understand it actually better because they just have more experience with pain. But it is inevitable that we're going to have to come into a discussion where we need reconciliation and to start the reconciliation, start in the journey inward in order to have a dialogue in the journey outward.

Yeah. And I think it's also important to note that what we're talking about is not forgetting and moving on. What we're talking about is not being complacent. We're not talking about just, oh, let's just let bygones be bygones and come to a table and see. That is absolutely not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is, yes, let's have the brutally hard conversations, but let's have them within ourselves first so that when we do sit down with those we perceive as other, those we perceive causing harm or with tremendous difference, the conversation changes. And maybe they haven't done any of that same work. Instead of, as you described, sitting across the table from this person, just attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, with no potential for actual conversation, with no potential for understanding. At least you open the door to a genuine conversation rather than just trading punches. So to give you an example, as a Muslim American, I'm very offended by

so much that is talked about Muslims, you know, that just because I'm a woman, oh, I must be oppressed, you know, that all Muslims are oppressive or are terrorists or Islam stands for violence. That narrative did not start with President Trump. That narrative started with liberal media way before President Trump, okay? That narrative, you know, Bill Maher said it over and over and over again that just Islam stands for violence, you know? It's offensive. It's offensive, you know? No matter how much you try to deal with it, it's just offensive. So, you know, so most of my reaction is like you get defensive and then, and most of Muslim Americans' reaction is you get defensive and you say, Islam is for peace. That's actually what the word Islam means is peace. And we are

not oppressed and we are good people and all of these things. Well, that's not the full truth either. There is violence among Muslims today. Indeed, a lot of terrorism is coming from Muslims today, right? So, you know, so for me, on the one hand, I'm offended when people say Islam equates to violence, or women are oppressing Islam, or Muslims are going to come here and impose Sharia on our country. I'm offended. It's just like, this is not who I am. This is not who my people are, all of that. On the other hand, to tell you

we are only standing for peace is also not fully true, you know, because there are terrorist attacks and they are saying, Allahu Akbar. And people hear that and they're like, well, what peace you're talking about? You see what I mean? But there's 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and there is a diversity in these terrorists.

Though they're Muslims, they do not represent the entirety of it. But I can't just tell you, I only stand for peace. I need to tell you and own the part of Islam that is actually violent, right? Now, so that's a hard thing because it's like my own religion, my own upbringing, my own culture to say there is indeed violence. We need to understand that we need to own that, you know, and the conversation with Muslims to non-Muslims, talking about what are you afraid of and acknowledge the fear. And the fear is of the other. The fear is that you see pictures and images of people shouting Allahu Akbar and you get scared. And the fear is you go into all, you see women wearing khaskov and you get scared. You think they are oppressed. And so first, like if I am using this experience, my message to Muslims, we need to own it and reflect. There is violence indeed happening in the name of the religion. This is happening. We need to own

that and we need to reflect how did that come? How do we change it? How do we own it? And how do we actually recenter the religion in itself, in its own values, essential values, which is indeed peaceful and all of that, but it has gotten out of hands right now. So the American conversation, if I just tell you, if you tell me, and I've had many conversations with people just fearing Islam, and they look at me and, you know, people who are listening to this won't know how I look, but I have shaved hair, you know, I'm wearing sleeveless right now, you would not know I'm a Muslim or not, right? So for me, it's like when people know I'm a Muslim, it's like, acknowledge the fear of the others. You're afraid. You're afraid we're going to impose Sharia on this country. You're afraid that women are oppressing among Muslims. And if the Muslims take over here, they're going to impose that oppression on all women. Do I believe in these fears? No. Do I need to acknowledge the fear in you, let's say,

so I can acknowledge you, so I can see you? Did I acknowledge? So for me, I shifted from being defensive and just saying it's all good to saying, you're afraid of this? Are you afraid of this? Most people in my experience are afraid of these things when it comes to Islam. It's the other, just like they're comes to Islam. It's the other. Just like they're afraid of immigrants. It's the other and their fear of the other. So for me is, as the other, immigrant and Muslim and woman and all of that, let me acknowledge that fear first. And when I acknowledge, it hopefully would lower the defenses of the other person.

Acknowledgement does not mean agreement. It means I see you. And from there, I share with you who I am. But when I'm sharing with you who I am, I'm not telling you I'm only good or my religion is only good. I'm telling you, indeed, there are some challenges right now. But let's put the challenges in perspective in here. It's indeed, this is happening, but this is what's happening also. And this is what we're trying to go about it. And this whole thing about taking over and Sharia and changing goals is absolutely not existence. Like it's just nonsense, basically. But let me tell you why, rather than dismiss it as nonsense, as stereotypes, horrible. Let me tell you what is

Sharia actually. And let me tell you why we came here to start with. And let me tell all of these things. So the conversation becomes grounded on my awareness of what is not only good about my background, but what is also challenging about my background. And it becomes a new path of conversation, not my denial or defensiveness, but my awareness and acknowledgement. And hopefully now I'm going to count on you to do the same. Maybe you will, maybe you will not, but at least I'm standing in my integrity. And at least I am opening the door for a dialogue, a constructive dialogue,

rather than being defensive as the other is being offensive. So powerful on so many levels. And yeah, as you said, you can't guarantee how somebody else is going to respond to that, but you're responsible for the way that you bring yourself to the other person, to the relationship, to the confrontation, or to the conversation, or hopefully confrontation that becomes a conversation. Maybe not a confrontation at all. Actually, if you can start from that place of shared openness and understanding. Because the danger in here, if we continue to fight against what we are horrified at, we risk becoming ourselves what we despise. I think we see that a lot. I think a lot of us feel that in the world. Oh my gosh. I mean, and I've seen it in myself. When I fought in anger against something,

I caught myself becoming that very thing. Like as a women's rights activist and as a feminist, I fought against, you know, stereotyping women and stereotyping, you know, thinking of them as one corner as this and this and this until one day I caught myself. I have become the oppressor of men by stereotyping men. So here I am fighting against male oppression of women and male stereotyping of women as X, Y, and Z only to become the one who stereotyped men as X, Y, and Z, and the oppressor of men, actually, by stereotyping them, in this case. And that was a horrifying moment for me. You know, it's like, I have become what I despise. And so the danger is that, yes, you can much easier continue to fight out of self-righteous anger. Continue. You risk becoming that horrifying other, you know?

So we have to hold ourselves and fight out of integrity and fight out of awareness rather than just self-righteous anger. You've used the word freedom a number of times in different contexts. And indeed, it is sort of the heartbeat of your new book. What is freedom to you? Well, it's because I grew up with no freedom. You know, I grew up in a country that had a dictatorship and so no freedom of expression, no freedom of movement, like basic no freedom. I grew up in a house that was bugged actually the entire time. So there's no freedom even in our home. Then I came to America at the age of 20.

And, you know, I was like, wow, there is freedom, you know, freedom of mobility, of expression. And I still actually admire the freedom of expression in this country. Like I'm still in awe of it. It's like I grew up in the desert. And so every time I go to a forest with trees and greens, I'm still in awe of it. It's like I grew up in the desert. And so every time I go to a forest with trees and greens, I'm still in awe of it, even though I've been here for 28 years of my life, right? So it's the same thing with freedom. It's like, wow, right? But that's the external freedom, right? And so for the longest time, I have compartmentalized my life or the world into us and them. You know, these people are, my country of origin in Iraq is

not free. America is free. These people are oppressive. These people are oppressed. These people are good. These people are bad. This is, you know, all I just, I divided the world into us and them. And us and them started first, like Iraq and America, you know, war and not war. And then Jeff, you know, over time you live more. I mean, at this point, I live more of my life in America than in Iraq. I realized that, oh, the people I love here, spiritual communities, for example, enlightened communities, sometimes the hurt came from them. And it hurt a lot because I did not expect that, right? Or the

lie came from people that I love, or the backstabbing came from people I respect. And it was shocking for me, you know? Like, what? It's from liberals coming like this? No, no, no, no. From spiritually enlightened people coming like this? No, no, no, no. And it was devastating for me. Devastating because I had divided the world into good and bad and I categorized it in that. So when the challenges, the bad, the hurt came from the good side, it devastated me. It's just like, I did not know how to make sense out of it. And then I realized, oh, shoot, the good, the bad, and the ugly is everywhere. And there is no more good and bad. This is oppressive. This is oppressive. This is not free. Actually, it's in all of it, good, bad, ugly. And most unfortunate, the good, the bad,

and the ugly is in myself as well. So what do you do with that? You know, because now you cannot escape to another country to get the freedom. You know, as I had, you have to actually look into yourself to get the freedom, you know? And that's when, you know, and the, you know, so freedom evolved for me from no freedom to an external freedom of expression, which I find a lot of Americans take it for granted, actually, you know, because you don't know what no freedom means, you know. So then I enjoyed it and loved it. And I started taking it for granted. And then I realized, I need to free inside, inside, you know, the freedom inside of the worry and the shame and

the fear and the anxiety and all of these things. And now that's a human value. That's a human feelings. There's no sadness and the loneliness and the worry about financial security and all of these things. This is human values. It has nothing to do with culture you come from.

And I know some of the most successful people in the world who are anxious about the exact same things as the least or the most vulnerable people in the world are anxious about, right? It's a spectrum. And so I needed to, I need to free my, because again, as an individual, I'm seeking happiness, you know, and then, well, how do I get there? I need to go, I need to be free in order to experience myself fully, you know, and express myself fully. And how do I do that? You know, you first do it externally and then you do it internally and internally and internally.

And then you reach a stage where you have a good sense of who you are. Now, it's a work in progress, by the way. I'm by no means a perfect individual whatsoever. It's a constantly work in progress, but you're constantly working on yourself. But then it becomes like, oh, I know who I am. I'm living these values, not because you told me to love these values.

I'm living these values because these are my truth values. These are my true values. And I no longer become into this is good, this is bad. I start seeing the truth in its fullness. And for every truth, it has a 360 degrees dynamic. I used to think of truth as only mine. But truth actually, if I am to tell you my full truth is I won't tell you only the victim story of my victimhood. I would tell you my own oppressor, where I have become the oppressor, where I have become, where I was bad to another person, where I was unfair to another person. And that's the full roundedness of truth.

And so for me, I became more like, you know, now we are talking about truth and post-truth and fake truth and all of these things. I say own truth again and to own truth again and make truth true again or great again, then we need to each talk about the full rounded truth in ourselves so we can truly, truly challenge the full rounded truth in the others. But mostly so we can actually be free saying, yes, I know that about me

and I am living out of my true value. So you're no longer maybe in the trends of the society, but you're creating your own trend in your life. Yeah, totally get that. So as we sit here in this good life project, if I offer out the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? For me is to live in my truth. To live a good life is to live in my truth, in my true values, my true heart desires, my truth. Thank you. You're welcome.

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Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.