Good Life Project - Patrice Washington | The Truth About Wealth (It’s Not What You Think)

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

What if wealth wasn’t what we thought? Sure, money is a part of it, and access, status, and at least the illusion of security it can bring. And, yes, the nice things you can buy. But, here’s the thing, I’ve known too many people who’ve earned unreal amounts of money, and they don’t feel wealthy. In fact, they feel like they’ll never have enough. What they DO feel is envy, fear of loss, perpetual craving, and security that seems “take-awayable” in a moment. On the other hand, I’ve known folks of modest means who feel wealthy beyond measure, vibrant, and alive with generosity. So, then, what’s wealth - real wealth - about? Turns out, beyond the Benjamins, it’s about something much bigger than we think, or talk about. And, simultaneously, way more accessible and valuable to us, and our ability to live good lives. And, it all starts with where the word wealth actually comes from. Today's guest, Patrice Washington, has been exploring the topic of wealth for decades, sometimes without even realizing it, developing a level of insight and expertise that is powerfully revealing. As host of the award-winning "Redefining Wealth Podcast," Patrice has built a thriving international community committed to creating wealth in a vastly reimagined way, moving beyond budgets and credit reports and diving into the heart of why we behave the way we do with money, what real wealth looks and feels like, and how to build it. SUCCESS Magazine named Patrice Washington one of 12 Inspiring Black Voices in Personal Development, and I'm thrilled to have her on the show today to share her expansive and deeply-wise lens on everything from wealth and value-creation, to faith, and the season of her life that, literally, brought her to her knees, revealed what truly matters, then fueled a reinvention that, for the first time in her life, brought her face-to-face with a redefined, sustained capacity for wealth, wellbeing, and an extraordinary life of purpose and contribution. You can find Patrice at: Website | Instagram | The Redefining Wealth PodcastIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Jen Sincero about being a badass in life and money.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.Indeed: Connect with your talent audience so you can make more quality hires faster. And now Indeed's doing something no other job site has done. Now with Indeed, businesses only pay for quality applications matching the sponsored job description. Visit Indeed.com/GOODLIFE to start hiring now. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

always running everything through the filter of does this feel right in my spirit? Not what does my mom want? What does my spouse say? What does conventional wisdom say? It is what feels right in my spirit at this time? What feels in alignment for the assignment and the season that I'm in? And I believe with that, you can never go wrong. So what if wealth wasn't what we thought? Sure, money is a part of it, and access, status, and at least the illusion of security it can bring. And yes, the nice things you can buy, but here's the thing. I have known too many people who've earned unreal amounts of money and they don't feel

wealthy. In fact, they feel like they'll never have enough. What they do often feel is envy, fear of loss, perpetual craving, and security that seems take-away-able in a moment. On the other hand, I have known folks of fairly modest means who feel wealthy beyond measure, vibrant and alive with generosity. So then what's wealth, real wealth, about? Turns out beyond the Benjamins, it's about something much bigger than we think or talk about and simultaneously way more accessible and valuable to us and our ability to live good lives. And it all starts with where the word wealth actually comes from. So today's guest,

Patrice Washington, she has been exploring the topic of wealth for decades, sometimes without even realizing it, developing a level of insight and expertise that is powerfully revealing. As host of the award-winning Redefining Wealth podcast, Patrice has built a thriving international community committed to creating wealth in a vastly reimagined way, moving beyond budgets and credit reports and diving into the heart of why we behave the way we do with money, what real wealth looks and feels like, and how to build it. Success Magazine named Patrice one of 12 inspiring black voices in personal development, and I'm thrilled to have her on the show today to share her expansive and deeply wise land on everything from wealth and

value creation and the season of her life that literally brought her to her knees, revealed what truly matters, and then field a complete reinvention that for the first time in her life brought her face to face with a redefined, sustained capacity for wealth, well-being, and an extraordinary life of purpose and contribution. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Play ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight Risk. I'm super excited to dive in. It seems like the more I learn about you and we've been in conversation with the mics kind of like turned before also, which was a ton of fun. And as I have been diving into your story, it seems like there are these seasons in your life. And sometimes the thing that bridges these two seasons of your life is semi-catastrophic. And that seems to have been the case around 2007 to 2009. Tell me about life sort of like in the season before that. And then I want to dive into this moment of just profound reckoning. You know, I love that you said it seems categorized by seasons. That's exactly how

I think about my life. I use the word seasons all the time and I love that because it always reminds me that nothing is permanent. I don't have to get stuck in this idea that it will always be this way. My grandma used to always say this too shall pass. And so the idea of looking at these moments as seasons really has always just helped me stay resilient and just know that this too shall pass. So I came into 2007 prepared for like the best year of my life. The year before, I had some bumps, but it was my first year hitting seven figures in my real estate and mortgage brokerage.

I had just gotten engaged and I was ready to like rock out. This is it. I have done all this work and I see it materializing into the best possible year of my life. And 2007, I learned that I was pregnant, was prepared and felt ready for that. And it was around May, around Memorial Day weekend, that I was actually headed downstairs, 20 weeks pregnant, and stepped on my nightgown and literally took a fall down the stairs, slid on my belly at 20 weeks pregnant. My fiance rushed me to the hospital and we got to the emergency room and they said, ma'am, I'm so sorry. This baby is coming any minute now. You're in full-blown labor. And I did the only thing I knew to do at that time. I started to

pray. I called a few people that I believed would actually pray. What was supposed to be any minute now actually turned into me being in the hospital for nearly 10 weeks on bed rest. But now I'm in the hospital on bed rest, just thanking, you know, God every day that that she's holding on yet another day, yet another day. And I had 16 loan officers and real estate agents in my business at that time. And every day they were calling me freaking out. My deals aren't closing. What's going on with the bank? They approved the loan and then they took back their approval.

They rescinded the approval and all these things. And it was about five weeks into my hospital stay when the doctor came in, Dr. Lee. And she said, Patrice, I don't know what you're stressing about, but you have to stop. We are monitoring the baby's, you know, movements and her vitals. And if you don't stop stressing, you're going to stress her out and you're going to leave here two years in a row with no baby. Because in 2006, I gave birth to a son prematurely and he passed after five hours in my arms. And so that was the first time I understood what it meant to surrender. I used to think the term surrender meant giving up. And what I realized in that season was that surrender

actually meant letting go of the control I thought I had because I was so used to being the person that can fix it. I'll fix it. I'll make it happen. But here I am on bed rest and I can't even go to the restroom without a nurse's assistance. So I'm definitely not able to fix what's going on in the mortgage industry. It was to the point where I didn't even want to be tempted to watch the news. So I asked them to remove the TV from the wall. And the maintenance people, they kept going, are you sure?

I'm like, yes. They came in and took that swivel, that box TV, you know, on the swivel with a step ladder. Two guys came in and took it off the wall. And my fiance brought me an iPod that had like gospel music, praise and worship music and a red leather journal that I wrote prayers and songs to my daughter in and a Bible. That is how I made it through the last five weeks with more peace. I did not consume myself with what was going on in the world. Like that hospital room was my whole world and staying at peace was like my only job. And singing to my baby was like the only task that

I had all day singing and praying. She did come early. She still came prematurely. She was born early August, 10 weeks early, nearly 10 weeks early, but she was healthy. And she stayed in the NICU for over three weeks. And when I left, I left with this healthy, beautiful, less than five pound baby, teeny tiny. But I also left with what I would find out was nearly $400,000 in medical debt because my insurance had dropped me during that time. And I had no idea I wasn't getting mail. So I had no idea about that. And that was the, yeah, what I thought on January 1st, 2007, what I was anticipating for that year, boy, did it indifferently. So here I am. My husband at the time had been exhausting all of

our savings to keep everything afloat. We owned 13 pieces of real estate property. Many of our tenants were losing their jobs. A lot of single moms that lived in our properties. We were not even thinking about evicting anyone in that season. And so we were working with people, although we had banks that were not working with us. So within a year, my primary residence ended up foreclosing. Our cars were repossessed and I sold everything that I could on Craigslist in a weekend and fled to Metairie, Louisiana. So I was Southern Cal, one LA to the other LA, very different LAs, lived in a 600 square foot apartment that we used to call the box.

It was so tiny. We lived in this 600 square foot apartment. And the day that I had to chase the power man down and beg him to turn the lights back on or my daughter's milk was going to spoil was the day that I was like, I literally have nothing left to give this whole scenario. I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. I had nothing left to like offer this scenario. I was tired of being the one with all of the like clever cliches and the mantras and all the happy, you know, quoting scriptures. I had nothing left to give. He turned the power on. He said, they'll be back tomorrow. And I was like, I'll have to deal with tomorrow, tomorrow. I can't even deal with that right now. I just need to know. I don't have money for milk. So this has to last. And my

husband took my daughter out for a walk and I got in the bathroom mirror and I will never forget just looking in the mirror and going, God, why? Like, why me? I have been a good person. I really try to treat people well. I do my best to operate with integrity. Like, what did I do? I felt like I had been a bad person and I missed it because at that time, my experience of God was kind of tit for tat. It was the idea that if you do something bad, you are damned to hell. And I felt like I was experiencing hell on earth. Like, and I'm just like, what did I do? You got to tell me something. This doesn't feel right. Like I haven't been a bad person. I was in a whole woe is me, which I know if you're listening, you can understand this.

Maybe you've had what I call a come to Jesus moment of some kind, but I was in this woe is me pattern and I was just crying. And then it turned into full-blown bawling. And then before I knew it, I was nodding. I'm sure I didn't even look like myself. And I ended up on the bathroom floor, fetal position. I mean, literally my forehead on the linoleum saying, essentially I brought myself as far as I can take myself. I don't have anything left to give this. I give up. Another like I surrender moment. I don't have anything else. And I heard what I refer to as a still small voice, but I felt prompted to get my Bible. And I landed on a scripture, Proverbs 17, 16, and it said, what good is money in the hands of a fool if they have no desire to seek wisdom? And that was one of the first times that it hit me

that while I had been really great at gathering information and I had a lot of knowledge. So bookworm, love taking tests, had no such thing as test anxiety. I could memorize something and do my thing and loved education, Dean's List, graduating from University of Southern California, all the great things. But I didn't understand that knowledge was the information and wisdom was how do you apply it. It hit me that I had not really done a good job seeking wisdom. I didn't know how to ask for help. I didn't understand the concept of mentors or coaching. I literally only looked at myself for answers. I was raised that way to figure it out. And so even in that season, even with my back up against the wall, no one else knew

what we were experiencing. They thought we just moved. So friends and family didn't know that our home foreclosed or that our cars were repossessed or that we sold all those things. And no one had any idea. So I never really got the support, you know, that could have been available to me because I was never open enough to ask. And that scripture was a game changer for me. There's so many things there,

but you know, just that last point, I mean, how many of us have been in a position where we feel like we're intelligent, we're hardworking, we're competent, we've done so many of the right things, you know, like we've checked the right boxes, we followed all the traditional guidance and maybe even we've had this taste of success and we feel like, you know, we're tracking in the right direction, you direction. And then through often things that are completely outside of our friends, the world, like clients, employees, as being a certain person living in a certain way becomes tumbling down. I feel like sometimes that actually makes it harder for us to step out of this place of pride and say, I need help. I actually can't figure out how to move forward myself anymore.

On the one hand, I was a little bit shocked to hear that nobody on the outside knew what was happening. And then I'm like, no, actually, I think a lot of us would probably really be struggling the same way and probably keeping it as quiet and private as we could for as long as we could rather than saying, okay, I can't do this alone. It was one of the best things that happened to me because after that point, I became so committed to seeking out support. Even to this day, if I don't know something, I will not be up all night Googling. I will figure out what are the core questions that I have and go find the support that I need and ask the questions. Now I have learned though, that sometimes the advice that others will give may not be in alignment with what I feel assigned to do. But that doesn't

mean that I don't ask. And it doesn't mean that I don't seek out different perspectives, because I do believe that one thing can change everything. And I also have learned, especially in that time, that people want to support you. Many people just don't know how because we're not vocal about what we need. And I think, you know, growing up, I always felt like asking for help was a weakness because I was raised that you don't tell people your business, right? You don't tell people what's going on with you. I was raised that way because I was always the one who could figure it out. I was quite comfortable in that space. I'll always figure it out. And I also had that thing that I hear with like many entrepreneurs, no one else can do it like me. Like I'm the only one.

I have to, you know, raising my hand. I've, I've said that myself so many times. Right. Like, it's like, I have to do it. And I really learned that the guilt and the shame and the embarrassment that I thought would come from asking for support was actually quite the opposite. The more I shared with people where I really was and what I needed next, the more willing people were willing to go, you know, I just read something about that. I'll email it to you. Have you heard of insert resource in my backyard? You know, have you ever thought about this? And interestingly enough, at that time, I owned a brick and mortar business leading into the recession. I did not know anything about the online world. I didn't have social media. I wasn't into any of that stuff. A few days before, maybe it was a week before, I remember going to Starbucks to get water because

I could not afford Starbucks coffee at the time. But I went to Starbucks to get water as I was walking by with my daughter. And I saw a group of women with laptops out and they had strollers next to the table. And I go, oh, wow, they're mommy people. Like they're mommies. It's like a mommy group. Maybe this would be helpful to me. I was a little nervous and intimidated to walk up. But one woman came over to get a straw or something.

I go, like, are you guys a mommy group? And she's like, well, we're mommy bloggers. I go, what's that? She's like, we're bloggers. I'm like, what is that? Like, I still had no concept for what that meant. She's like, well, you know, we have these websites and we write, you know, blog posts about our experiences.

So she pointed this one. She talks about fashion for babies. And that one talks about like making natural food and all these things. And none of that really sounded interesting to me. Even as a new mom, I was like, I don't really make food and I'm not going to start. I'm like, I'm just I started to think about what this meant for me and I felt compelled, I had a first grade teacher, Ms. Boynton, who used to say, you know, when you know something, you have a responsibility and a duty to teach your friends. And there was something about that difference between knowledge and wisdom that I had looked up because of this Bible verse. And then also it made me want to learn more about wealth.

Like I had been in the personal finance space because I was a real estate and mortgage broker, but I had never really looked deeply into wealth. When I looked up the definition of wealth, I felt like, hmm, the first thing says money and material possessions, but let me dig deeper. Let me seek more wisdom on this. So I started to dig deeper in the original definition that I found was wealth is actually the condition of well-being and happiness. It was not about money and material possessions at all. The 12th century definition was the condition of well-being and happiness.

And something in my spirit said, in true Ms. Boynton, first grade teacher fashion, you have a responsibility to share with your friends. And because I had just been exposed to this idea of blog, bloggers, you can just write these entries about something you're interested in. That was the beginning. That was March 9th, 2009, that I was on that bathroom floor. Within days, I launched a blog called Seek Wisdom, Find Wealth. And I started to talk about biblical principles that talked about money or finance. And that was the catalyst for it all. You know, I look back now and I'm like, so grateful for those mommy bloggers in Starbucks.

And I'm, you know, so grateful. She was so perplexed by me. Like, huh, you really don't know what a blog is, but she changed. She was one of the people who changed my life. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what's the difference between me and you? I'm going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the

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Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. And that time also, so March 2009, for those who may remember, that was when the markets had cratered out, the real estate, everyone had sort of hit rock bottom and nobody had any idea if we were ever coming out of it, you know, until recent times, it was actually just about the worst, the worst moment in economic history since the great depression. And if you were in real estate, especially like anything touching real estate, you were, you were wiped out. It was just absolute decimation. So you find yourself in this moment. It's interesting to me also. So like, I know you're

a person of faith and when you decide to step into, okay, so let me figure out what this blogging thing is and, and wealth feels like, and wisdom and wealth feel like these two topics that are deeply interesting to you, that you also, you make a decision to bring the faith side of yourself into the conversation. I'm always curious about this because a lot of folks will sort of like, when they get to that point, they'll say, huh, this is a big part of who I am. Whatever your faith may be, it's a part of who I am as a human being. It's part of my belief system, but I'm not entirely sure it quote belongs in the conversation that I want to center myself around publicly. And they make a choice to say privately,

this is who I am, but publicly I'm going to peel it out. And you made this really interesting decision to say like, no, this is actually a part of me. And I'm wondering like what the process for you was to say, no, I'm actually going to bring this right into the conversation because it's an interesting decision to make. You know, I have to be honest, Jonathan, I wasn't even doing it to build a brand. I wasn't doing it at that moment because I could create a business out of it. So I literally thought I'm going to just talk to my friends. I have a responsibility to teach my friends and this is an organized way to do it. Now, to be honest, as it grew, so it went from me

just having my blog to writing for other blogs that were much bigger to then writing for magazines. And that led to radio. And then I was Steve Harvey show for four years, you know, and all of these different things. There was definitely a piece in there where I was encouraged to leave my faith out of it. I remember speaking on a stage where I had two talks, one in the morning, one in the afternoon. And the event hosts came to me and said, oh, my gosh, you did an amazing job. They loved you, all the things. But we just wonder

if for the next one, if you could leave out so much faith talk, because we don't want to offend anyone in the audience. And that was the first time it occurred to me that my faith could be offensive because I'm just talking like this is just who I am. It hadn't even occurred to me. And then I felt bad. It's like, oh my gosh, well, I don't want to offend anyone. I want them to get the message. Like, I don't, I want them to be able to receive it. And I did the talk and I started doing a lot of media. But your career is headed in that direction. And you may want to consider rephrasing some things and just leaving things a bit more general, vanilla, lukewarm. Let's not rock the boat. You're really building something here. And I'm like, OK, that's that seeking wise counsel, right? Like, OK, this makes sense to me. And there were several years in there where, you know, privately, I'm openly a very faithful

person, but professionally, I was not saying anything anymore. Maybe if you followed me or friended me on Facebook, you could tell. But other than that, I wasn't. And in 2016, I had another one of those seasons leading into 2017. There were just some things that happened in my marriage and I had some professional things happen. I remember I was going to the Dr. Oz show. We were practicing before we were going to film the segment and they go, we have all your props. We're talking about saving on groceries and you're going to move this felt piece of broccoli and this apple from one side to

the other, right? Because Dr. Oz loves a good visual. But for me, it was kind of cheesy visual, but I was like, okay. And so we're practicing and I'm doing it and I'm thinking, what is wrong with you? This is not what you really want to do. You really want to share what you believe is the truth about wealth. And you started out with the best of intentions, but you've allowed people to put you on a box and the box says, oh, you can only talk about these things, but you're actually experiencing so much more than that. And how you've rebuilt your life has been so much more holistic than looking at a budget and credit report, you know, every day.

And I got this check in my spirit that that was not enough. I couldn't just keep having these conversations for all of the acknowledgement that I was getting in media at the time. It did not feel authentic. I was like, okay, I'm going to do something different, but not right now. Cause I have a whole media run to do. So I'm going to get through my media run. And then my site crashed. Someone, someone actually, I call it the boulder effect. So I had that little nudge. I was like the pebble. But then my site was, how do you say it? It was like taken over. Somebody hacked it. And they hacked the site. And when I called the hosting company, the guy was so kind. He's like, man, you sound like a very nice woman. I'm not sure what you did to someone but this is the worst hack I've ever seen and I've been here for like seven years

it was something crazy like that and I thought oh okay well I thought it was someone just maybe pointed it to some unsaved replays like of course we can get it back no he said they went through and literally deleted and corrupted all your files it feels feels very intentional. So when they restored it, I had the shell of a site. So it looked like my site, but there was nothing behind it. You couldn't click and do anything. And he's like, yeah, you're probably going to just have to start over from scratch. And I go, oh, here's the boulder. Okay. I wasn't obedient on the pebble a couple months ago, but here comes the boulder. And I ended up just taking it down and having a landing page that said, you know, I'll be back. All my programs, everything I was selling, all of the stuff that I sold online was gone.

It was gone. And that's when I had to take a step back and go, what were you really called to do? When you were on that bathroom floor, you always promised you would tell the truth. What you feel is the truth about all of this. And what's the truth for you about wealth? That reminder that wealth was not just about money and material possessions. So I couldn't just keep talking about credit reports and budgeting and savings accounts. I believe that wealth has so many more components to it. And when I took a step back

and took a little time off, what came forth is what I now call redefining wealth and the pillars, the six pillars of wealth that I teach from. And when I was developing those, faith was a part of that. And I was like, I will never remove the faith piece again. So I stumbled into like including faith in the beginning, but in 2016, I made an intentional choice that my faith is what it is. And many of the stages that I speak on, they're not people, necessarily people of faith, but I have found that people respect it because I always say, I'm not here to force my faith on you. I respect whatever you believe in, but I have to be true to the fact that without my

faith, I would not be here because it was that scripture that saved me in that moment. I wouldn't be here. It's so interesting how you sort of like the journey that you took in regard to that, like first standing in it and then kind of having to come full circle, the boulder moment. I think we've all had moments like that. And that led you to sort of like developing this, I guess you call it almost a framework around redefining wealth as something more expansive, something that speaks to more parts of your life. And also those contribute to this sort of like state of wealth. You described them as the six pillars. One of those is, in fact, as you said, is faith. So one of those six pillars is faith. And it's also interesting that the way that you speak about faith in the context of these pillars or the framework is expansively. So clearly you have your own tradition and you also step into it and you say, okay, I'm going to invite you to consider the fact that this matters. A spiritual life matters. When we look at the larger construct of faith, this matters. I'm going to offer out a certain set of ideas or guides or things that I feel under this category

matter. They're important, but I'm also not going to tell you. I'm not going to prescribe, follow this path or this path or this path. I'm not going to invalidate if your tradition is different than mine. So it's interesting to see how you said, yes, this needs to be something I want to talk about. I'm going to share thoughts and imitations around it. And yet you also do it in a way which feels very inclusive and expansive. Yes. And that has been so important to me from the beginning. So when I named the fourth pillar, the faith pillar, it's described as believing in something greater. And one of the biggest lessons that I talk about from that pillar is really just remembering that nothing in life is happening to us. It's happening

for us. There are so many lessons that we can take away from these experiences that we have in life. And really just understanding that I feel that when we don't believe in anything, it is so easy to fall for everything that comes our way. Because it's not a matter of if, it's when. Like life is always dealing us things that we did not expect. And in the work that I've done with women over the years, when they are not grounded, I have found that when people are not grounded in something that they believe in, when life happens and it's the most chaotic, not only do they have to grieve what's happening, they also have to figure out what they believe. of the episodes I've done is called Greatness Requires You to Expect Resistance. Resistance is coming. So I feel like our faith gives us a way to create a plan to move through resistance, you know, to move through these tough times in life. Because oftentimes I think we just give up too soon. I've met brilliant people who have faced some things in life and I've seen people who experienced worse and they were able to navigate

it. And then you have people that experience things that are like, I mean, on the scale of 10, you know, for the average person may be a four, but you're taking it as a 20. And some of that could have to do with like, there's nothing grounding you and giving you this hope. That's what faith is for me. It's like, it's more so the hope and the understanding that this too shall pass. You know, in Christian faith, all things are working together for my good. And even if we are just psyching ourselves out,

I believe I'm gonna just live a more peaceful life because I have these beliefs. And when I look at the different things that I've endured over my life, you know, I did an interview once and they said, what's your superpower? And I was like, resilience. And I believe that comes from my faith that no matter what happens, I know that I'm going to get back up. There's nothing else that I've experienced that tells me you will be fine. This is a season.

You will get back up. And that's what I choose to believe. And that's what I offer to the audience. Like you get to choose what you believe and how that navigate helps you navigate your life. Yeah. But believe in something. It's interesting. I was recently having a conversation about just this type of thing with Rabbi Steve Lader. And there's been a long history of when we hit moments of uncertainty or suffering or loss or in our lives, both personally and broadly in society, people tend to turn to whatever their faith tradition is, even if it hasn't really been a part of their life for decades. We very often go back to it in no small part because it gives some sort of rubric for living. It kind of gives you, here are the general guides.

Because you're not the first person who's moved through this. People have written about it and talked about it and discussed it. And here are a set of invitations or guides that you might consider as you move through this window. And yet, people are running from organized tradition. I know. The quickest growing group are the non-affiliated folks. So I was talking to him about why he thought that was. And it's interesting to me. I know. that give us these touchstones to hold on to. And maybe we haven't named it. Maybe we haven't realized we've even created it or run to it. But I agree with you. I feel like in times of great

uncertainty or struggle or stress or transition, we're always looking for what are the things that make sense? Where can we touch stone? Where are the anchors and the guides and the guidance that will help us breathe through this moment. And we may not call it faith. We may not call it religion, but I feel like we're almost hardwired to just to figure out our own set of equivalent guideposts and step into something that feels bigger than us, even if we don't necessarily realize we're doing that. Yeah. I actually had a talk with someone about that just the other day. It was actually my podcast producer. We were talking about this idea that in the years to come, we're probably going to see, and I know people don't want to call it

religion, but more groups of people who identify with different practices from different organized religions that feel right for them. Just taking the best of what feels right. And I feel like who is anyone to say that that is right or wrong? That's just my stance. Like I literally, again, respect. Someone said to me one day, well, I tolerate all religions. And I'm like, well, there's the problem. I don't tolerate. I respect them. You know, I respect that whatever you say is supporting you and moving through this life that could be so full of ups and downs and twists and turns and so much suffering. If you are prioritizing the practice of traditions and things that support you and understanding that there is a higher power

that may be guiding and that loves you. Some form or fashion and is going to see you through it, then I'm for it. I'm for it. I just can't bring myself to be against that because that's not love. I know. And at the end of the day,

I think that's what like those four letters are what it really all comes down to. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. letters of what it really all comes down to. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations iphone tennis or later required charge time and actual results will vary so you do like faith is this the fourth pillar in this or larger framework that you have and of course one of the pillars is money because you know that really anchors in what we most of us think about first and sort of like think about first and foremost, when we think about this word wealth, you also, you really dive deep into work. And of course, you know, that's sort of like my wheelhouse as well. We both have geeked out on

this thing of work. Like, what is it? Why do we do it? What makes it nourishing for us? And we have a lot of crossover in our ideas. And for you, the notion of purpose is so centered. It's almost inseparable from the idea of work. So take me a little bit deeper into your thought process around this. Yeah, so the work pillar is about living your life's purpose. And what I have found in my studies, just in working with people, before I got the MBA in financial psychology, it was already happening very intuitively for me as I was working with people. And I would find all the time that folks would come in thinking that they had a money problem. Very quickly, after a few questions, I understood they had a purpose problem. So they had access to really great jobs,

but because they were unfulfilled, they could not get their financial priorities in order. And when what you are doing day in and day out is unfulfilling in my work, I feel that it is creating this deep void. And what most people try to do is fill the void by buying people and things. We buy people and stuff. So, you know, we want to validate that we are successful. So we want to be the ones in the family to pay for everything or to be the savior who saves anyone whose lack of planning creates an emergency, you know, or we want to make sure that people like us. We want to buy love. We, you know, throw money at things when we are not there with our physical presence.

All those things come up, but it continues to just deepen a void. Or we buy things. So the bigger house, the better car, the second home, the best vacation, because now we have to post it, you know, all over social media or it didn't happen. And all of that is happening, but truly there's like this thirst that will never be quenched because ultimately what is happening is you're just unfulfilled.

And when you are not aligning your gifts and talents, right, in a purposeful way to serve others in the marketplace, I truly believe that it just keeps that void going and it makes it very difficult as a financial trainer or educator to get people to do the things that we want them to do. So this is not about, oh, I don't know how to budget. No, your life is so cluttered with other things. And for many people, that's the work that they choose because we're not really taught to choose from a place of purpose. We're taught to choose from paycheck.

Does that have good benefits? Like what is the salary, right? You're coming out of college, you're coming into adulthood and you are, how much are they going to pay you? No one says, does this align with your God-given gifts? Does this feel good in your spirit? Does this energize you? Can you do that thing all day and not even think about going to get food? Do you have to remind yourself to go to the restroom? You love what you are doing so much. No, no one is telling you to think about your vocation from that place. And we also, you know, even as entrepreneurs, many of us have been fed this idea that, well, you follow the passion and the money will come. And I think that that is the biggest crock of bull. I think that that is absolutely insane

because I've met so many people who are so passionate about something that they are not proficient in. They are not gifted in. It is not even genuinely in alignment with who they are. They're just passionate. And Jonathan, I'm number one example. I am so passionate about singing in the shower. I am Whitney Houston. I am Whitney Houston. I will sing to the top of my lungs in the shower.

I am holding a full concert. However, I was blessed with a choir voice, not a solo voice. My voice definitely needs to be disguised by about 200 other people singing with me, but I'm passionate about it. But I understand that passion really excites me. It pumps me up. It gives me energy. But if I can't use it to be of service to others, is it actually purpose? Because to me, passion is for me, but purpose is for others. And I think it is beautiful when we can allow ourselves to become passionate about the things that we are purposed to do.

I had to learn to become excited about writing. I was always a good writer, but I never was passionate about it. It was naturally a gift, but I wasn't passionate about it until I saw the impact that my words had on others and the fulfillment that would come from people saying, your words bless me. Well, that allowed me to get passionate about becoming a better writer. The more I started to speak and people would say, oh my gosh, your words moved me. That allowed me to become passionate about being a better speaker because for so many years, my talking is what

got me in trouble. So I even dismissed that talking could be something that I could use, you know, to even be purposeful. I had no idea. I was upset. I'm like 5'10". I've got these long fingers. I'm like, I'm supposed to be a basketball player. I'm supposed to be a piano player. I'm supposed to go do something else. All I know how to do is talk and write. But when I allowed myself to become passionate about talking and writing, it became more purposeful. It's so connected to my purpose on this earth in this season. But I wasn't initially passionate about it until I really saw how it impacted others. It's interesting also because for somebody like you who has this background in personal finance and money and making intelligent choices

and planning and security, so often the advice, especially when we're younger, actually not just when we're younger throughout our entire lives is, oh, that thing that gives you energy, that thing that excites you, that thing that you feel like you're here to do, that thing that gives you a sense of purpose or meaning, that's great. Do it as much as you can, but unless there's a really clear conventional path to a lot of money, it's not your thing. That's not going to be the thing that you should focus on trying to make your living or your vocation or your career. Do it all the time outside of that. And for some people, that balance actually can work. But for a lot of people, you end up just in despair and not really understanding why outwardly it seems like

you have all the trappings of wealth or success or you know whatever it is you aspire to yet internally you wake up every day and you're like oh this again like i'm why do i feel so hollow when from the outside looking in i quote should feel so full and i don't and so we're almost i feel like given the advice to not center these things you know and to to go after the thing that's going to support you. And, and neither of us are saying money doesn't matter. Of course, you know, it is a part of us being able to sustain ourselves. Right. But it's, it's more of a yes. Yes. I did an episode recently called three times. I chased purpose, not money,

because I would get people to say, so are you just saying that bills don't matter? It's like, I'm still a financial expert. I know that your bills matter. I want you to have good credit, trust me. But for me, chasing purpose, not money means making decisions from a place of faith, not fear. And it's not faith in terms of like, do you believe in this God or any of that? It's like making choices from a place that just feel good in your body, feel good in your spirit versus saying yes to something that you know you don't want to do. And literally the only reason you are diving head in is because of the dollar amount. There were times that I took small gigs that were not much money, but they gave me the freedom and flexibility to really work on the thing that became my thing. Like, you know, now it's like, this is all I do, but yeah, I took gigs, but I refuse to take something that would take up all of my time and not allow me the space to work on what has become.

And, you know, I tell this story. When I first came to Atlanta, it was from New Orleans. So I lived in that teeny tiny apartment for about a year. My brother was a single dad. He needed my help. I come to Atlanta and I'm only supposed to be here for like a week or two to help him out with his kids. Steve Harvey, who I worked for when I was in college for a few years, heard I was in town, heard about like what had happened

with my business and all that. I go to the office and his manager at the time, Rashawn McDonald and Steve, they want to make me an offer to come work there. And boy, did I need it. I was on food stamps. I was getting whatever support I could get from the government at that time. Like all the things were happening and this was going to be a blessing. And I remember they offered, they were going to offer me 40,000 a year. And I was like, oh yes, we need it. And this was 2011. So I just want to be clear. I was in a season, 2009, 2010, all this stuff was still happening. I go to the office, they're explaining what my duties would be. And I feel like on the inside, like, uh-uh. But I'm listening because I'm like, you need to take this. You have a child.

Be responsible. Before they can even finish, I blurt out, I can't do it. And in true Steve Harvey fashion, he goes, you broke, ain't you? I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I'm in a temporary situation, although this had been going on for years. I'm like, I am. But what I feel called to do, help people with personal finance. And I was like, I am. But what I feel called to do, help people with personal finance. And I was like, I know that sounds crazy, but the truth is I lost all my money, but my mind isn't bad. I was really good at what I was doing when all this happened. I still want to like offer hope to people or do what I can to support people. And they looked at me like I had an eyeball, you know, in the middle of my forehead. And I was just a crazy person. And I turned the job down.

And in 2014, as I was launching my second book, Steve Harvey's producer reached out and said, hey, Steve wants to have you on the show to help you out. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's awesome. I didn't ask. I didn't. They had just been watching. And I went on the show and it was supposed to be one interview. You know, I did the interview. I didn't ask. I didn't, they had just been watching. And I went on the show and it was supposed to be one interview. You know, I did the interview, went really well. People started

to say, hey, can that girl come back? And so they invited me back two weeks later. And then I came back again a few weeks later. And then he said, you should just come every week. And that started four years on that nationally syndicated radio show as the money maven of the show, I could not have prayed for that opportunity. But it was honoring that feeling that I had that was like, this is not purpose for you. You would literally just be doing this for the money, even though I needed the money at that time, Jonathan. That was the hardest thing to have someone say, package up a job and say, here, you don't even need to apply for anything. We don't need a resume.

Your reputation with us is golden. You can walk into this job and to feel that that was so far out of alignment that even with a child and even needing the money, I just could not bring myself to do it. But to come back three years later as a completely different woman in a different space who had been on that journey of just like, I'm making decisions rooted in faith, not fear. If I say yes to that, that's fear. Every opportunity that comes up, even to this day, it's like, am I making a decision from faith or fear?

Am I chasing purpose or am I chasing money? That is one of the reasons I've said no to more opportunities than I say yes. And it's a constant thing. And it will probably always be a thing. But when people say, well, it's easy for you to say because you have money. Not, I didn't always. And those were the conversations I still had to have with myself. And the number of times, that's one example, but where it has come

back around full circle and still led to the financial wealth that people wanted in the first place. I came back with a completely different ask, you know, three years later, that was much more than had I taken that position and gotten stuck there. When you're making that decision, is there a question? Is there like a test that you use? Do you tune into intuition? Do you ask yourself a specific question or set of questions to figure out whether it's worth the quote risk of saying no to something which would put present day money in the bank but just feels like the downside of it is too much and that you so much so that you'd be willing to walk away. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. You know, I practice a lot of meditation and stillness regularly anyway. And so usually when things like this come up, I go in my prayer room and I just sit. I get really still. I kind of see the opportunity and what it would look like in my mind. And then I allow my body to tell me, like, as I'm seeing it play out, what does my body feel?

And if I feel tightness in my chest, if I feel like my throat is going to close, like there's been opportunities where they made it sound really good on paper. And my, and the visualization of it, I felt my, my throat closing and I knew that they would try to stifle my voice. Like that's what I felt. Like they're going to say, yeah, you can come and we'll do all these things. And then there'll be like a little trick, you know, after the fact where it'll be like, but you can only say this or not say that. So I literally sit on the floor and palms up and I just visualize and I sit still and I look for my body to tell me because I really do believe our bodies keep the score right and our bodies know and for me that

is usually like one of the guiding ways that I know if I feel too much tension in my body or sick to my stomach or my throat or my chest starts to feel tight, it's usually a no. And I've learned to trust my body. And if I feel completely at peace and I find myself visualizing it and that smile starts to come, if I open my eyes, there's a mirror right in front of me. If I open my eyes and I am smiling, it is a yes. If I have anything on my face other than a smile and I am in questioning or my brows are furrowed or I'm making a face, it's a no. And that is one of the ways I've really processed some of the bigger opportunities that I've had most recently. Yeah, I love that. It's like you tuned into the intuitive data, which often we totally discount as having value, but often actually is the truest information that we get.

You and I think it could just keep going deeper and deeper into all of this, but I know we have to bring our conversation to a close. As always, I share the same question with every guest. So sitting here in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life, be true to yourself always. Like what comes up is always running everything through the filter of does this feel right in my spirit? Not what does my mom want? What does my spouse say? What does conventional wisdom say?

It is what feels right in my spirit at this time. What feels in alignment for the assignment and the season that I'm in. And I believe with that, you can never go wrong. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Jen Sincero about being a badass in life and money. You'll find a link to Jen's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly

eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight Risk.