Good Life Project - Petra Kolber: The Perfection Detox

Episode Date: June 6, 2016

What if you had to live your life in the spotlight. With thousands of people watching not just your every move, but the things you said, the way you looked, the state of your body and life?And, what if earning your living depended on it?That's the place today's guest, Petra Kolber, found herself in. A renowned teacher, speaker, athlete and spokesperson in the fitness industry for decades, she lived nearly every waking minute in the public's eye.It was an extraordinary experience, but it also came with a cost. An obsession with perfection, setting the bar at a level that was persistently emotionally and physically unattainable. And, that led to an inner life that was a very different place than her outer life. Her awakening to this led to a heroine's journey that's left her in a very different place, one of renewal, positivity and a willingness to forgive her own humanity.Moving into a new season in her life, Petra remains "exposed," but now she's speaking directly to the issue, and to the near-maniacal and destructive push for perfection that seems to be fueling so much of life today. She has presented in over 30 countries and spoken at TEDx. Her mission is to help others stretch their dreams, kick fear to the curb, strengthen their courage muscle and build a life filled with joy and purpose.In today's episode, we dive deep into her remarkable journey. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I had so many women come up to me, oh my gosh, it's such a relief for me to know that someone like you has struggled with this as I have. It gives us permission to be human. There's this really interesting thing that tends to happen to people who move into the public eye, especially in the health and fitness world. There's the expectation of perfection, that what you see, the perfect body, the perfect looks, the always up, positive, upbeat energy, that that's what you see, the perfect body, the perfect looks, the always up, positive,

upbeat energy, that that's what you have to be. And in fact, that's the facade that so many people wear when entering and becoming a leader in that industry. But all too often, what's happening behind the scenes, under the skin, in the heart and soul, is a profoundly different and upsetting story. And that's part of the story that our guest today, Petra Kolber, who for many, many years was an incredible star in the health and fitness industry, somebody who was put out there as a legendary innovator and teacher and spokesperson, without really sharing that inside, there was just extraordinary turmoil and doubt. And the expectation of perfection was destroying her until finally she decided to take a step back and do something about it and really change the way that she interacted with her career, with the world,

and the way that she wanted to bring herself forward and share and teach from that moment on. That's the journey that we dive into in today's episode with Patrick Holber. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. So we're hanging out in New York City right now having this conversation. You're not from New York City, although you've kind of been in and out and probably here long enough so that you're an unofficial, like an unofficial, like, hardcore New Yorker. But from what I remember, from what I understand, you grew up basically in London or outside of London? Yeah, I actually was born in London and then lived most of my life near Liverpool, a little town called West Kirby.

But if I say that, no one knows where it is. Yeah. So about 30 minutes outside of Liverpool and then did my dancing training there. Worked in London briefly, did not do so great, and then came over, actually traveled the world a little bit dancing, and then came over to the U.S. on a cruise ship when I was 20. And that's what brought me to the U.S. So tell me about growing up outside of Liverpool. What was life like? Small, safe. Again, not a lot of challenge,

and also you're not brought up to challenge yourself that much. It's very much going with the status quo. It was safe. It was good. I was dancing a lot and not really enjoying it, but doing it because it was a good thing to do as an out-of-school activity. So break that down a little bit for me. So you think dancing brings you joy

and it, pieces of it did, but there was a lot around that. It was coached in fear. The teachers were very fear-based. They were the ones that believed to break, to build you up, they'd break you down. And sometimes I think they forgot to build you back up again. So. Was it your decision to start dancing initially, or was it something where parents kind of said, this is something you have to do because it's expected? Yeah, when I was born, my toes were really crossed. So the unglamorous version is my mom sent me to try and straighten out my toes.

Oh, no kidding. And that's what brought you into dance. Yes. I wish it straightened out the rest of my life. But there really were pieces of it, Jonathan. When I think about it, growing up and where I am now, I'm so grateful for that time. But I remember the mornings when I was going, it was not like looking forward to, oh, my gosh, this is something I love. It was, how can I do this in a way I don't let anyone down?

Which is not a great way to spend your teenage years. It's like, how can I fit in, do the right thing? And there wasn't a lot of joy in those times. So it was something that sort of consumed your life, but not from the inside out, more from sort of like feeling the pressure. It was a mechanism to fit in and to meet other people's expectations. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely.

I don't think I even tapped into the idea of inside out for many, many years. And probably not until I met Americans, to be quite honest, because for Brits, we're not brought up that way or in the generation that I grew up. You're not designed to have desires. You're not to have goals and dreams and hopes and aspirations. It's almost looked upon like, who are you to be having those dreams? And so now as someone who teaches people to believe in this, it's been a really, so, you know, you teach what you need to learn. It's been a long journey. You know, it's so interesting, too, because, you know, there's always a mythology, you know, like Brits are, stifle their emotions.

And, you know, it's very sort of like, but I think it's actually much, I don't, I don't know if that's true or not. But, you know, being of the same generation, essentially, you know, similar age to you, I think we were on the cusp of the generation where, you know, like the, our parents' generation was about, you know, they were, they were raised by parents who came through the war. And it was all about put a roof over that. The families had to put food on the table, whether you're fulfilled by what you do. That's not the point. The point is do the thing that builds character and provides and gives you security. And that kind of, I think for a lot of us, that was passed down to our parents. And that was a huge part of what our parents did. And we kind of had the tail end of that ethos.

But then at the same time, we also have like the leading edge of, you know, the desire for something more. And I think a lot of us really struggle to reconcile that. No, I agree. And I'm trying to think about, yeah, it's, I don't even remember the day when I even discovered that there was something to be reconciled. I just turned 52 and I'm just beginning to grasp how much impact your entire life really does have on who you are today. I mean, I know it sounds so naive talking to you, but, and I think looking back, a lot of it too was not just the dancing you say it was very much appearance appearances and our our family from the inside out was a disaster not my mom she struggled to keep the roof over our head as you say but it was it's so it was at such a big cost to her because my father could not provide in that way so it was that whole thing

of trying to keep the you know appearances up which is so important in england from the outside in when from the inside out it's falling apart every single day and then you put that into a dancing school where again your appearances are so important and just thinking about it now with you that needed to be reconciled. Like here's someone, you know, his house is so imperfect, yet every day I'm having to show up at dance school and try and appear so perfect in many ways, not just to my dance teachers, but in jobs, auditions, so on and so forth. Yeah.

I mean, are you open to sort of sharing a little bit more about what was going on at home that caused so much struggle? Yeah. I know that was also that time around Liverpool. Also, I remember Liverpool was a huge boomtown. And then it was like, there was really huge economic trouble for a couple of decades. Correct. Yeah. And I don't mind sharing. I've shared it publicly. And when we talk about sharing, I always go, is this going to help, hurt or hinder? It's a tough decision. Yeah, no. And I think this, you know, my father's passed on. He learned from his father who learned from his father. You know, he had a big drinking problem, and he was a salesman,

so he lost his license when he literally drove his car into a wall. And growing up, you think you're the only one. And that's why I talk about perfectionism now, because even as adults, we think we're the only one. And then I go back talk about perfectionism now, because even as adults, we think we're the only one. And then I go back to where I grew up and every house on our street was dealing with the same thing because you go back to England, especially up north. What you'd even now, I just came back from England. Your pastime is to go to the pub, to have a drink, to hang out.

And he was really respected and loved around his community, but we had a different story that we were living with. Yeah, so it's all about appearances, which also teaches you as a kid, you know, that the thing that matters most is to appear perfect. Yes. And man, is that a struggle to set up for the rest of your life. Correct. And that's why I talk about it so much,

and it's much of what I do, and much of what I still struggle with. I mean, just coming here to you, I had the nerves coming up, and now I recognize that as, really, what a privilege to be here. I'm not saying that just to say that, but it's recognizing that sitting down with you

doesn't have to be a perfect conversation. I don't have to say the perfect thing. I don't have to know everything. But it's taken me a long time to get comfortable with that. Yeah, still right there with you. Thank gosh. It's funny. I meditate.

I do all this other stuff. It's funny because we're all just kind of, you know, like we're walking along the road together, you know, and we're constantly comparing our insides to other people's perceived outsides. You can't win that game, but we do it constantly. And one of my favorite sayings, I think it's Steve Furtick, a pastor, he said the reason we're all so struggling with insecurity is because we're so busy comparing our backstory to everybody else's highlight reel. And I'm like, I try and remember that every day.

Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah, because that's all we see, you know, especially with social media right now. And, you know, even myself, when I do a talk or something, I try to present my best self. But who I was five seconds before I stepped on stage was an absolute disaster. You know, who am I to be doing this and all the same old stories? And, you know, tell me if you've experienced this also. I don't know if you've experimented with this, because I i to be doing this and all the same old stories and you know tell me if you've experienced this also i don't know if you've experimented with this because i started to experiment with this because i feel the same way and for a long time i was like well no i can't

earn a living unless i prove that i have value and i have to the way that i prove value is to show everyone i've got it all figured out gosh yes right and so i would get up on stage i present you know like when i'm creating marketing stuff kind, well, I have to be the person. And then there's like something that switched. And I still, you still have to show that to a certain extent. But then you kind of realize you're like, actually, what people really connect with in a profound way is your humanity, you know, and the fact that you've got something, you don't have to present yourself as like, I've got 100% dialed in, I've just I've got something to share. But also, man, have I screwed up, man, have I made mistakes, I'm like, so human, and I'm gonna do it again. And people connect with that so much more powerfully than that,

like Pollyanna ish. I've got it all dialed in. And I've lived a life where, you know, like, everything is just awesome right now. But it's scary to go there. Oh, yeah. And for me, I was in the fitness industry, and I still am to some extent, when I was doing the DVDs on television on the back of a special K-Box. And I thought they expected perfection, not just physically as well as emotionally. And it was interesting. I was doing a talk, and I don't even know how it came up. I brought up, it was maybe just like a throwaway line that I had struggled with anxiety. And I saw the entire audience sit up. Well, not the entire, but a lot of the women in that room sit up. And

I was like, I've hit a nerve here. And so instead of backing away from that piece of my story, I spent like, I didn't, again, I just kind of touched on it because i didn't know how it's going to be received i had so many women come to me oh my gosh it's such a relief for me to know that someone like you has struggled with this as i have it gives us permission to be human and show that side of ourselves and i agree with you when i go and do a keynote i go prepared, my slides are ready, I've done the work, and I'm ready to be in that moment and hopefully be able to serve the people in that audience. And who knows what that is? And I think part of being an educator and hopefully someone who inspires others is still learning, is being able to say, you know what, that's a great question. I don't know, thank gosh for Google.

I'll get back to you tomorrow. I've learned that it's okay to say I don't know, whereas for many years, if someone asked me a question, I might have had a two-hour presentation, and I had aced it. And maybe some person made one question or had a comment, and I didn't know the answer. That's all I would have focused on for the next two months. Like, oh my God, who am I?

It's crazy. Yeah. And for you guys listening to this, I know that none of you have ever experienced that, right? It's like, we are all so there. And it's just that I'm sure you get this also. So many people have come to me feeling like they're imposters. But people who are on the outside, the world looks at them and saying,

they aspire to achieve what they've achieved. And on the inside, they're like, I feel like such an imposter. And there's something called the imposter syndrome. Right, exactly. It made me so happy when I thought, the therapist I'm actually going to for help thinks like they're an imposter too.

I was like, I'm not sure how I feel about this research, but I'll take it on. All right. So let's fill in a little bit of gaps also, because you mentioned dance, you mentioned fitness.. So let's kind of like bring, move through the story a little bit. So you started dancing when they're in the UK, and that became sort of like your main thing. And was that the thing that brought you over to the US? Yes. I mean, I had been working in London for about three years doing the industrials,

the grunt work where you're, you know, auditioning every day for a one week job. I just needed a break. I was so tired. And so a friend of mine and I, we saw an audition for a cruise ship. We thought, oh, let's just go for this. It's going to be super easy. And we went. And in the audition, we actually said to the choreographer, either we both get this or

neither of us are going. I'm like, oh, my God, that's probably the boldest I've ever been in my 20 years. Long story, we got the job thinking that we were just going to be dancing. We get to the U.S. and as we go into port, actually the show was fantastic. For its time, it really was great. Choreography, we were challenged. As we get into the port, it was the first mega ship. We get into the port and say, oh, yeah, by the way, you're going to do crew staff duties.

I'm like, what? But part of that was teaching this thing called aerobics on the deck at 7 a.m. So actually, in some really weird way, it kind of moved me or was a really very loose bridge that brought me into the world of fitness. But that's how I kind of came over here as a dancer on the cruise ship. And then I danced in Miami for a few years also. So that was sort of like the thing that both brought you over here and introduced you to this world of aerobics. So when are we talking about here? Really, really long.

It was almost like pre-VHS. It was that long. So like early, early 90s, like late 80s, early 90s. This is when it's all breaking, basically. It's all breaking. And I still was a dance look at this thing going, what is that? Like really, who do they think they are? They're trying to dance and jump around. I was not

that impressed at the beginning. I guess it was probably it hit big in this country sort of like mid-80s-ish, I guess. Yeah, what an interesting time. Also, you talk about perfection. The movie that sort of lit up the U.S.

was like Lily Neal. Perfect. I wanted to be her. Right, exactly. You know, it's like, you know, you've got Jamie Lee Curtis and the whole thing is about the aspiration to be perfect and how to set up a disaster. Correct. And I bought right into it. And there was also, though, a time around that it was I came in a little bit after the perfect. Right. And it was right when Step was beginning, this thing called Step Aerobics. And I was brought on by Reebok. I had a great 10-year contract with them.

I traveled around the world. It was amazing. And those beginning days, as much as we were talking about perfectionism, there was a lot of joy around it, too. We were doing it. Actually, I came in right after the barefoot, hence Reebok. We were selling sneakers. But there was a lot of joy. And then somehow I think we got lost in the business of fitness.

And it became a real business. And with that, I think a lot of the joy was lost. That's what I experienced anyway. It's so interesting. So you've spent a lot more time in the fitness industry. I was in it for about 10 years between fitness and yoga. And I came in feeling like there was a lot of dysfunction on the business side. And oh my God, there was huge dysfunction.

What I wasn't expecting to find was so much personal dysfunction on the level of the people who were the leaders and the teachers. And it was heartbreaking to a certain extent, you know, because I remember when I was really in the business, there was a research report that came out. You know, they do all these annual surveys, big trade organizations. And one of the questions was, what is the single biggest factor that would lead somebody who is at a health club taking a class to come back and take that second class after the first time? And they had a whole list of things, inspiration, technique, music, all that stuff. The biggest factor, the single biggest determinant of somebody coming back to take a teacher's class again was the teacher's body.

Oh, my gosh. Which is horrifying to think about. Because talk about setting the teachers up for just brutality from the inside out. Yeah, and I bought into that, too. I don't remember starting out that way. I mean, as a dancer, I'd run the gamut with eating disorders. And I thought I'd actually gone over that. Because that world is notorious for it, right?

Yeah, from one disaster into another. But there were elements of, I mean, there was so much great things that happened for me during that time. I got to travel the world. But yes, and there was this external pressure to look a certain way. And I also put that pressure upon myself. So some of that was external and a lot of it was internal. So that hasn't really gotten that much better if we look at the industry. But, you know, I think that's also one of the problems. You know, the other bit of data that has always stayed with me is that right

around that same time, and as much as I know, this hasn't actually changed. The research showed that somewhere between 80 and 85% of adults in the US at least, will never join or stay a member of a health club, even though 90 something percent say I have to be exercising on pretty much daily basis to live a life and want to live. So it kind of, it informs that earlier thing about like, you know, who would you go back to? They're asking the people that are already members of clubs who already have this orientation, you know, but what about the 80, 85% of people who are terrified of health clubs? You know, they're probably the ones where if you open a club with just ordinary mortals providing the service

and you're like, I can relate to them. All of a sudden, I'm not terrified in a room. I see your book, Spark, here by John Rainey, which is one of my favorites. Huge book for me. Yeah, and that's the work I'm doing now. It's that the people are working out. So this is what I saw. Traveling the world, I saw doing now, it's that, you know, we're not, the people are working out. So this is what I saw traveling the world. I saw women who from the outside looking in were amazing. They had the,

you know, the tightest buns, you know, the six pack, but I saw themselves when they looked in the mirror and there was self-loathing there. I'm like, so what's the point of having a rock hard body if you look in the mirror and you're picking yourself to pieces? And then there's the other side of it, which I think we really need to tackle, is where the 80%, like you had said, because if we keep weight loss and what we look like is the goal for moving, we're never. We're doing such a disservice to this incredible thing called movement, which makes us more creative. It makes us more vital. It triggers the exact same part of our brain as the strongest antidepressant. Right. It makes us more vital. It triggers the exact same part of our brain as

the strongest antidepressant. Right. It's like astonishing therapy. And that's not sexy. But that's the thing I believe we need to be sharing. Because I know for me now, I went and worked out and took a walk around the park before I came here because I wanted to be awake. I wasn't worrying about how many pounds am I going to burn. But it's like, I need my brain to be fired up so I can hopefully be in the moment and move more so I can worry less and be less anxious. But we don't talk about that.

I say let's stop worrying about the product and let's start thinking about the people because you've got 80% of America that really need what we're doing here. But vitality and creativity and having more self-esteem doesn't necessarily mean you want to buy a product. And I always think we've been selling wow, but it's the people we meet who are the wow. And movement is a gateway to their own internal wow. Again, we talk about mind-body fitness,

and I've spent 25 years studying from the neck down, gateway to their own internal wow it's again we talk about mind body fitness but and i've spent 25 years studying from the neck down and now with the whole neuroscience and you know plasticity of the brain i'm like oh my god i wish i because it's all about head up and i say it's not it's not what you're doing you could be doing the most perfect workout bench pressing whatever but if you don't think you're doing it well, that's what your brain is going to take on as real. And that's what's going to affect the rest of your day. Yeah, it's almost like it conflicts, like all the good work that the actual movement is doing physiologically, the mindset sets up a cascade of opposing forces, which almost, you know, take away a huge amount of it because they have their own set of, you know, neurological and

chemical things that it does to the body that counter it. We are strange people. But let's talk about, I mean, the thing I don't want to dismiss is the fact that there are wonderful things going on in the fitness industry and the health industry, and there's tremendous good at the same time. We're not both sitting here knocking everything. It's just, I think we're in the midst of this evolution of thought where I think a lot of people are waking up to the fact that what got us here ain't going to get us there. Again, I think to, yes, I totally agree with you. It's not what we're doing. It's why we're doing it. Yeah. So talk more about that. So for me, it's what's your why behind the workout. I think do whatever you're

doing. If it's a triathlon, if it's, you know, if it is an infomercial product, if it's the hardest class going and you're having a great time doing it. And when you walk out, you feel empowered and that empowerment can move into the rest of your life. Keep going. Don't change a thing. And if you're a different person doing the same workouts and when you walk out of whatever it is, putting away a DVD, or you are not feeling empowered, something needs to shift. Maybe it's the workout choice of yours. A lot of people work out because they see something on television and think that's for them.

It might be or it might not be. So, again, it's not what you're doing, but why are you doing it? And what are you training for? Are you training for a short-term goal of weight loss or are you training for your life? How can what you're doing impact your life when you leave the gym or you put that DVD away or streaming video, whatever it is these days? Again, I'm not negating anything that the industry is doing. And I am asking

the leaders and the companies out there, let's really be in that white powder of reframing why people are moving. Yeah, I love that. And I completely agree with it. There's one of the earliest blog posts I published. It was called something like, how to make exercise more fun than sex. I'd sign up for that. The post did pretty well. But fundamentally, you know, it was, I was just looking at, you know, like, okay, if you look at side by side, you know, here's something where somebody tells you to do it, you know, like in a laboratory, it's effective, but you despise doing it.

And you leave, just like you're saying, feeling just disconnected from it. And beyond just pure, like, I know this works in a lab, you have no, not only do you have no connection to it, but you really, you loathe having to go do it. Versus if you just find an activity where you love, whether it's dancing around a room, whether it's horseback riding, whatever it may be, where, you know, like the mindset connected with it is, I just want to find, I want to literally move around my day to find ways to do more. The first one, you're going to stick with

as long as your willpower lasts, which is the blink of an eye. Thus, the mass enrollment in health clubs in January and six weeks later, they're all gone. Whereas if you find that thing that just lights you up from the inside and you want to do more, you know, so maybe it doesn't burn as many calories, you know, like as the other thing, maybe, you know, but if you do it for the rest of your life, because you can't not do it because you love it, that's such a better option. But again, this kind of goes to the bigger point.

Very often those activities, there's not a real clear revenue model around them. We can go out and play. We can go out and dance. We can do all this fun stuff. And I agree. But also, if we think about it, there's always a need for community. Always.

And we're seeing now, loneliness is becoming an epidemic. So I think there could be a huge revenue stream around that because people are craving connection. Yeah, completely agree. And we've lost that. And a health club is an amazing place for that. Community being seen, being heard, being respected, being lifted up.

So I actually think they could stand to make more money. And I so agree with what you said. The most beautiful opportunity here that so many people aren't kicking in on is the community. Like you said, loneliness, like our need to belong is never been stronger. I read some research last week that loneliness is the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Wow. That woke me up. So, and I'm a member of a gym locally here. And I think what a great place to start.

Maybe we have a technology-free hour. We start there. You can't bring your cell phone onto the floor. You, you know, I don't know how it would work. But even you're required to have a conversation as you move from machine to machine. And the thought leaders in this space need to be the ones that show the way. We need to be the change. And that starts with seeing people where they are, meeting them where they are,

and recognizing probably the greatest gift you can give someone is just to notice them. It also speaks to your just sort of innate bent, I think, because you grew up in an industry, became like a huge name and a thought leader for a long time, largely as somebody who led groups of people, you know, and what's inherent in that. I mean, you knew this as a teacher, right? You would have the regulars and there would be such a powerful community that would form around the class community. You're right. And it's so funny. People always say to me, oh, I feel so inspired after I leave your classes. I could never put my finger on that. Like, what does that mean? And then this whole world of positive psychology came about. And oh my God,

that's what I'm teaching without even realizing what I was doing. I teach to people's higher self. I recognize them, that their potential, which really just means bringing them back to who they really are before we took on all the craziness of believing other people's stories about us, that there is so much good that happens with movement and connectivity and eye contact and listening to people and moving together. I mean, moving and great music and great empowering mindset, there's probably nothing better that's going to elevate your sense of self-esteem, place in the world, and allow you to create things outside of this movement. It's going to give you the skill set and the confidence and the courage to go and live

the life of your dreams outside of this place called a gym. Yeah. You just brought up positive psychology, which you have become not only a massive geek about, but now you went and studied with Tal Ben-Jahara, who's one of the big names, and became certified and trained. Where did this come from? What was the spark that led you to it? I've been so blessed to be on the fitness circuit for probably about 23 years, presenting professionally and the last few years I always I'm so blessed and I never take it for granted about the gift and the platform of being up talking and inspiring others but I was seeing

the same people and I would walk off stage going that was great you know I gave them some new moves some new choreography on Monday but I didn't feel like I was changing anyone's lives and I like oh something's missing and my evaluations you know I'd get like, you know, 30 ones. People would say, oh, yes, she's so inspirational. I'd get the odd one that hated me, and I'd like focus on that for the next four months. Welcome to the human race. Hence the need to psychology on myself. Right.

But then I don't even, I think I don't even know what I Googled in, but you know when you put in the search engines, I heard this, I think maybe I heard a piece of research that from Martin Seligman, who had started the master's program, positive psychology. So being naive, I actually applied for the program with no hope in hell of getting in. But because I'd Googled that, positive psychology kept coming across my radar. And I saw a year long course with Tal Ben-Shahar. I just thought, you know what?

When I listened to what they were teaching, I was like, I think this might be the missing link. So let me just go and explore this more and see what happens. So what was that like, exploring it? Oh, well, A, it was so wonderful to be a student again. I actually took a year off the circuit. I gave myself permission to say, you know, guys, I love you. I'm off for a year. So before we even go further, I want to ask you about that decision because in the world where sort of like the belief is if you step back, you may never be able to step in again, take me to that moment.

I think had I actually realized that, I probably wouldn't have done what I did. You know, I'd had a really good year financially, to be quite honest. My mom passed away. And there was a lot of small wake-up calls that were saying, you know, you've had a great career. You have a job, a career, a calling. And I'd had an amazing career. It was beginning to become a little bit like a job.

And that concerned me. Because I always believed you can only inspire others to the degree you're inspired yourself. And I'd lost, I'd lost the inspiration. I still showed up 150%. I believe I did amazing, you know, hopefully change people for the better, but something was missing. And I thought, you know, fit my 50th was coming up. So it's like, like, you know, midlife something. Are you going to do something? What are you going to do? Plus, to be 100% honest, I was like, how much longer can I keep this up? You know, how much longer can I be grapevining and, you know, dancing at this intensity?

So I knew I wanted to make a shift, and I wasn't quite sure what it was. I think it was like, so how do I i make that knowing that i might not come back i think it was luckily i had enough finances at the time to be able to take a couple of years back off and it's just like if i don't do it now when am i going to do it and i think i believe so strongly that there was something that our industry was craving but we didn't know what it was i was willing to take the risk. And then I jumped into the white powder and go, oh, my God, what the heck am I doing? This could be the biggest mistake of my life, you know.

So tell me about that year then. Oh, it was going back and being a student. And just Tal Ben-Jahar, you know, people might not know of him, but he is one of those teachers that shares his knowledge versus shows you how much they know. So that was an amazing gift. And he was someone that's like, take this. Take this and run with it. How can we help you?

It wasn't like, here's a little piece of it, and then you can't use it. So generous to be around 180 people from all over the world. Only a few of them were in fitness and those people mostly in the world of yoga. So I think I was actually the only one that I was aware of that was in the traditional world of fitness, which was both terrifying and also absolutely awesome. Yeah, because you essentially spent your entire adult life just 24-7 surrounded by this one group of people. Yeah. And those group of people were also so inspiring themselves.

The pieces that we really connected on really had very little to do with movement. There was always a story behind the movement. We just didn't know that that was what was happening, I believe. So for me to be around a different group was probably one of the healthiest things I've done. And it also taught me that I had to ask for help, which I'd never done before. And I'm still learning how to do because I'd always been the expert. And now I'm not the expert. And it's a really humbling place to be to go, I don't understand what that means. And could you repeat that?

Could you reframe that in a different way? Tal talks about taking the knowledge from the ivory tower down to Main Street. So every lesson that I was doing there was like, how can I apply this to the world of fitness? How can I apply this to the consumer that I speak to at non-fitness events? How can I? So it's just that curiosity, just being able to be curious again and having the time to explore that

and not have to worry about my day job also. It was an absolute gift that I, kind of I say I gave to myself, but my mom gave to me because she left some money. And so, and I, every day I'd say, mom, this is for you. You know? Yeah. And it sounds like you reached a point where really the curiosity spoke so much louder than the fear that you just said, yeah.

I think it was that. And also I needed a change. And I felt like if I was feeling this way, I wonder how many other people that I connect with every day is having the same struggle. And maybe, can I always say, to be the change, you have to live the change. And I've been talking about doing something, you know, hopefully a bit of a game changer, but I didn't also believe that I had the wherewithal to come up with something like that. And so it's also learning to trust myself and really, really stepping out and challenging myself in ways that also are applicable to life.

Like, okay, let's see how courageous you really are. Let's, you talk about living your best life. Let's see what you're prepared to do to make that happen. You talk about being vulnerable. Let's see how you're prepared to do to make that happen. You talk about being vulnerable. Let's see how vulnerable you're really prepared to be to get to dive as deep as you're going to be asked to really impact meaningful change in people's lives. And there's still days and moments I go, I don't, if I had my reading glasses on when I read the fine print, would I ever sign the agreement?

Probably not. But is it worth it? Absolutely. And I'm still terrified. You know, I still, there's days when I get up and I'm so convinced that I know my meaning and purpose. And there's other days I'm like, I just hope you haven't been drinking the Kool-Aid. And, you know, but I don't think I have. I'm seeing the work beginning to make a really big difference in the lives of people.

And the wonderful thing I'm so grateful for is it's being really beautifully received by the fitness world. We're so excited by this. Thank you. You know, I'm being invited to speak at some really amazing events about this work. I'm actually challenging the status quo of our industry. So maybe I just came in at the right time. And the industry was craving this too, and the thought leaders were craving this.

We just didn't know what it was that we were missing. Yeah, I love that the industry was open to it. I love that you're just sort of like standing in that place of vulnerability and saying, you know, this is the thing that I can't not do right now. And I hope it works out. It seems to be working out. But, you know, it's a thing that I just have to do right now also. It's funny.

The industry used to call, you know, like the holy grail of the markets, the deconditioned market, which I always thought was just so awful. It's actually most of humanity. Right. What we can call deconditioned is actually the normal human being. Right, exactly. And I'm like, that is so offensive. Just, you know, you're talking about like your mom and your sister and your brother and your cousin, like, and all the people that are hanging out at your barbecue. You wouldn't like walk up to them and say, man, you look deconditioned.

It's like we slapped those labels on them rather than saying like, you're a human being who's in the middle years of your life. Let's have a conversation about what matters it sounds like to me you're in a moment where it's sort of like you're moving into a different season of your life personally and also doing the things you feel you need to do to to re-equip yourself to now also move into a leadership position for others who are also entering that season and get it and share and teach and lead in a different way, but still drawing on what you learned, but differently. Yeah. If we really look at the world that we live in, I'm a female. I'm 52. I'm, you know, I'm a single woman living in a big city. And there's a lot of fear that you could buy into around that. And there's a lot of fearlessness

if you actually look at that fear in the face and kind of dig a little deeper as to what is underneath that. I think that's where I am in my life right now. And they say, once you know, I really believe in being awake. And the challenging thing is once you wake up, it's really hard to go back to sleep, which is also a really uncomfortable place to be sometimes. And I also want to live a life that's worth living. And that includes vulnerability and joy. It includes fear and fearlessness. It includes, you know,

it includes happy and sad and acknowledging that what a gift it is that we, that I can move into this part of my life. I mean, I'm a cancer survivor twice over. The outcome could have been very different. And I look at people around me, what a gift to be able to, you know, age gracefully. And we're in a society that it's still not something that is embraced. And so can I be that one of the many, many people out there doing great, great things that can also encourage women to say, you know, women especially, because, you know, that this is your time. How are you going to use it?

Use it well. You know, be in service of your daughters. This is a great time for women in this world. And it's all women, not just the women we see on television and in magazines. It's the woman next door offering a hand to the woman who's just gone through a devastating divorce. It's a woman next door helping someone through a husband who they just lost. I mean, there's so much we can do as women for each other on these single moments just by being connected.

And, you know, you have to go through it yourself to be able to help others go through it. And it sucks. But it's true. And then what are you going to do with that? You know, I talk about the power of choice, you know, even the choiceless moments, there's a choice. Are you going to rise? Are you going to be better or bitter? You know, are you going to be a victim or a victor? And I want to be better. And I want to be a victor. And I want to help others to be their own heroes, you know? And I hope it doesn't sound trite

because I don't mean it that way. But every day it's a choice to say I'm going to show up today and I'm going to embrace my anxiety. And even coming here, I mean, a few months ago I'd have come up with

a million reasons to cancel. You know, I've got jet lag or I'm not feeling my best or... And so this is a big moment for me just sitting opposite Jonathan Field. You know, I've got jet lag or I'm not feeling my best. And so this is a big moment for me just sitting opposite Jonathan Field. You know, you've been someone I... It's just kind of funny for me. This is a big moment for me sitting across from Patrick Culver.

I've got a lot of facts going on. But I say that just for every woman that I meet, we have this idea of someone. We have that shininess about them. And it's not to be a burden. It's hard work, but it's so worth it. And I think the more we can come into community around this and realize that it's not about being perfect, but it's being perfectly human, we can really do great things.

Yeah. You mentioned cancer, two-time cancer survivor. First time was around 1999? Yeah, I had a melanoma on my foot, which is interesting that it was on my foot because it was my career. And it was stage one. And, I mean, luckily, I went to a third dermatologist because two dermatologists said it was nothing.

Third one said, let me just take a little swipe. So it was melanoma. And I was like, oh, can we just, you know, there's like, we're going to have to come in. We're going to incision. You're going to be off your feet for about a month. We have to go in about an inch. I was like, well, I've got a convention in a couple of weeks. Can we work around this?

They're like, no, this is really serious. And even then, because you can kind of cut it out and then move on. And then that was fine. And then about four years later, I had a lump on my neck. And I kind of play with it a little bit and ignore it. And I was traveling all over the world with Reebok at the time. And so I was getting very fatigued. And I just thought it was jet lag and travel. I just happened to go for my regular checkup. And my doctor said, are you here to see about that lump on your neck? I was like, well, not really. And he had seen me with the melanoma. And at the time, without me realizing it, his fear was that it was the melanoma that had traveled. Luckily for me, it wasn't. It was

Hodgkin's lymphoma, 2A for those of you that know what that means. So at the time, it's a very treatable cancer. But, you know, I went through chemo, lost my hair, went through radiation. And, yeah, I mean, what a blessing. I had great doctors. I had an incredible support system. And I had, you know, it was Reebok at the time that I was wearing wigs, and they did not for one second stop using me. They'd tell me to take as much time as you need.

So I was lucky. I had a great support system. I had work that gave me space to recover and heal. And, yeah, I'd get up and teach actually down the street at the Reebok Sports Club when it was the Reebok bald heads. And it was movement at that point was one of the most empowering things I could have done. And it was never, that was the first time in my life I think I stopped moving to burn calories. And I stopped moving for energy and empowerment. But then the further you get away from that cancer diagnosis, you kind of go back into your old ways.

You're like 15 years out. I forgot what that actually meant what was did you actually teach sort of walk in with shaved head yeah what was that moment like first time well I had a handkerchief on it the first time like it's very bandanas were big so a lot of people didn't even notice and that's getting so hot my head was really itchy so I took it off and a lot of people just because I look kind of healthy a lot of people just, because I look kind of healthy, a lot of people who didn't know my story just thought I'd shave my, cut my hair really short. So a lot of people said, why did you cut your, I mean, I kind of like it, but why did you cut your hair very short?

And at that point, I would just say, you know, I'm actually going through, through treatment. And some people found it very empowering. I didn't, I was lucky. Maybe I was a bit naive, but people were very, very comfortable around my cancer, I think, which is unusual. A lot of people are not comfortable around that because it makes you question your own mortality when you see someone you know who's young, healthy, teaches fitness. Well, if she can get it, that means it makes you question your mortality deeply.

But whether it's true or not, it felt to me that people around me were very, very comfortable around me and my illness and my recovery. Yeah. And also just within the environment that we were talking about earlier, where the expectation is perfection. People go there to become perfect and they expect the teacher to be perfect. It's interesting. I wonder what the inner dialogue was. It sounds like the inner dialogue in your head was bring it on, which is kind of stunning. That's a really good point. I think during my treatment, I became fearless for probably the first time in my life because I'd faced the worst fear. I mean, you could have died. And it was a brief moment in time. I wish I could say, you know, I lived that way until I was today. It didn't happen that

way. But I do believe during those eight months, I became fearless. And because there was two weeks in there where we were waiting for the diagnosis of this second cancer. And I literally, they said to me, we're not sure what it is, we need to go in for a second biopsy. We think it's going to be some sort of lymphoma. But if it's not, if it's the melanoma that has metastasized, we're looking at months here. So I had lived that worst fear that we all have that we're dying for two weeks because I didn't know. And at those moments, you really learn how to be very present because your mind's going to go crazy if you don't stay in the moment.

So I always, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It sounds, again, sounds very cliche. We say, oh, I'm so glad I went through it. It made me a better person. Do I wish I didn't have to have gone through that? Absolutely. Did it teach me a ton about myself? Hell yeah.

And I just wish I hadn't forgotten that feeling. You know, the next 12 years, I kind of went back into my questionable self, like, who am I? And you're so right. I never really thought about that. But I would show up my bald head, and I was like 15 pounds heavier from all the steroids. And my classes were packed. And maybe it was something I was delivering where, you know, in the past, I thought it was all about perfection. And here it was, I'm here to celebrate you. I'm here to celebrate life. I don't actually remember that.

But I'm thinking about it. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what people were actually tapping into. It was me being so imperfect in my most imperfect self possible, especially as a fitness person, quite maybe was the beginning of tapping into something much deeper in myself and the way I connected with others without even realizing what it was at the time. A little foreshadowing. Yeah. So right now, you're sort of taking everything that you've been through, you're taking your positive psychology experience now and really building the next step in your journey.

Tell me a little bit more about where you're headed. Well, I've created something called Moving to Happiness, which is basically reframing the why behind the workout. And it's just encouraging people to move for any other reason than weight loss or the size of the jeans. So there's a whole pot. And there's so many areas of teaching that can go into that, from thoughts become things,

your brain doesn't know the difference between a thought and what's real, teaching to your higher self what empowers you, what fires you up. So there's so many different aspects of that. And then hand in hand with that, I'm also doing a lot of speaking and work around the perfection detox, which is detoxing from this idea of needing to be perfect. And that resonates really deeply, right? And they both kind of go hand in hand, like how can we be our best selves? And to be our best selves, it means you have to

let go of the perfection because perfection doesn't allow you to take risks. It doesn't allow you to show up and fail. And moving to happiness is all about that. It's failing and it's learning that failure is just a milestone onto a greater experience to come. So they both go hand in hand. I guess one is the light side, the moving to happiness, and then I think about it, the perfection detox is kind of the shadow side. And that's what I'm learning as I move into this 52nd year is for you to – and a lot of people ask me, how are you happy all the time?

And what I'm realizing I need to share with them is don't compare your happiness to mine because comparison is the thief of joy. But it's not about are you happy or sad it's could you be happier and what can we do on a day to day moment by moment basis if we need to if we're into that darker side we wake up and we feel like i just cannot find a reason to get out of bed today what tools can i teach you through movement through and that movement might be your breath it might be moving your mindset it might it will probably in move be involving moving your body but we're talking about how can i empower you to be not happy or sad but can you be happier and i believe through movement and breath work and mindset yeah Yeah, I can help you with that. And I've lived it.

You know, so you teach again what you need to learn. And both of those, you know, I work with some days are super easy. And some days not so much. Yeah, no, I love that. Perfection is just such an interesting, it keeps circling back into conversations so many times, I'm sure with you too. You know, Brene Brown's got a famous book about it. I think what people don't realize too is that part of what I think makes for a good life is a storied life, you know, and perfection doesn't tell a story.

There's no story in perfection. No one can connect through perfection because I don't connect in my perfect moments and that's not, if we think of the most inspirational heroes, be it an athlete or a political figure or just a human being, where we feel like they're a hero, their life has certainly not been perfect. And I say my life probably has been,

this is the least perfect part of my life right now. And it's my greatest now. And it's my greatest learning. And it's not this or that, it's learning to live in the and. It's this and that. And perfection doesn't leave room for the and. Because we're so busy trying to control everything. I say, you know, it's like, you know, it takes away the breath of your life versus adding breath into your life. And I think we believe, and again, the conversation is changing through Brene Brown, who I just, is a rock star. The conversation is changing, but I still think a lot of people believe that perfectionism and perfection is the way to success and meaning and finding the perfect relationship, partner, work, job, career, I think it really actually limits your potential

because it puts you in a box and doesn't allow room for creativity and curiosity because that means you have to live in the unknown. And boy, that's certainly not perfect. Somebody should write a book about that. It is a scary place, you know. I think it takes a lot of time on the planet, I think, for most of us to come back to the understanding that it's not about being the ultimate specimen. It's about reconnecting to your humanity.

It's so funny you say that because, you know, I hit 50. My mother passed away i've never been aware of my age as much as i have now and it's not about getting older i just oh my gosh i just wish i knew at least say that you know you've heard my i heard my mother say this if you knew what you knew then But I'm just at 52. I'm really and only just beginning to grasp all this yumminess and most terrifying pieces of our lives. And yet I know, and I'm not being dramatic here, based on my genetics, I'll be lucky if I hit 80. Just genetics. And then I met some friends of mine when I was in London recently who I hadn't seen in 30 years.

And I think this was my wake-up call, and oh, my God, 30 years from now, I'm going to be 82. If I make, and there's so much work to be done. So it's also like then we know to be vulnerable and sit in the fear and the sadness. It also takes time. So how do I give myself the gift of that time when I also feel the pressure of time of the work I know that needs to be done?

So now a different balancing act for me. It's like, okay, how long can you actually sit with this fear? Because I know that's what telling you to be here now, sit with your feelings. Yeah, but I've got to change the world. So there's a different struggle going on inside of me. And I just, if I can give, if the work I want to do now is hopefully give, especially women and young girls around this whole idea of perfection, if I can give you the cliff note version where you don't have to spend 30 years learning the way I did, that would make me very happy. And unfortunately, a lot of it, you have to live it before you can teach it. Can't take a pill for that. Which is a beautiful way or place to come full circle, actually.

So we're sitting here and having this conversation as part of a good life project. So if I offer that term out to you, to live a good life, what does it mean to you? I really think it is as much as possible being in the moment appreciating the moments not worrying about future moments and just doing the best that i can and hopefully inspiring others to do the same thank you and hopefully inspiring others to do the same. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real unscripted conversations

and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while

you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated. Until next time, this is Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

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